Thread replies: 221
Thread images: 41
Thread images: 41
>it's a Barbara Fields talks about muh slavery scene
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Ken burns is the most overrated documentarian of all time
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>>87423552
>Vietnam
Soon.
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>>87423685
Have they announced a date for it yet?
I'm pretty hyped and I'd love to do live threads with you guys.
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Ken Burns jazz series was a fucking disgrace
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>>87423717
>implying there are enough people here honestly interested
>implying it wouldn't quickly devolve into /pol/ shitposting
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>>87423552
>it's a Mary Chestnut quote
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>Its a Shelby Foote almost calls the slaves niggers episode
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>it's a Richard Nixon and Walt Disney get reanimated into one guy scene
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national parks one was great
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>>87423717
Starts Sept 17
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>>87424129
>tfw got a new copy of that DVD series for a dollar at a garage sale
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Is this the comfiest doc ever
>its a Shelby Foote talks like he was there episode
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>>87423685
>ken burns + it ain't me
A dream come true
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>>87423756
>disagreeing with my politics makes you /pol/
And then you have the unmitigated gall to get pissy when you're told to get your faggoty ass back to Plebbit.
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Prohibition underrated
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>>87424248
I'm convinced he was Robert E. Lee reincarnated, his scenes were so comfy.
That part talking about Grant and Lee after the war made me depressed.
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>watching the New York doc
>mfw song plays
https://youtu.be/mkfQ-eSTNOU
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>>87424360
That Mississippi accent sold it, if he had any other accent it wouldnt have worked
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if you don't shed a tear watching this then please fuck off and never return
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0C-euAyCTU
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>>87424248
He was.
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>Hey, I noticed you were enjoying that part with confederate soldiers anon. I just wanted to remind you that slavery happened and the Civil War still isn't over today.
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Ken Burns' Baseball was pretty great though
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>It's a George McClellan keeps fucking up episode
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the american west series he produced was so based. maximum comfy. dat narration by peter coyote
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I haven't watched Civil War yet, but The Roosevelt documentary was great. What other Ken Burns documentaries are worth watching?
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>>87424747
Civil War, Baseball, The West and The National Parks
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>>87424623
I cant tell you how much earlier the war woulda ended if we switched off this pussy.
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>>87424623
>when you go full /r9k/ martial law on southern roasties for making fun of you
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>>87424747
The War, Prohibition, The West, New York,The Dust Bowl
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>>87424804
He was such a typical pussy too, calling Lincoln names in his letters when he was the one too pussy to do anything, what a cuck
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>>87424804
Would the Confederacy really have surrendered if Lee got captured?
They still had a pretty powerful military in 1862 and didn't get fucked up at Gettysburg yet.
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>>87424747
Civil War, as a documentary, is oddly phenomenal.
It takes a very talented filmmaker to literally just still photography, narration, and music to make great documentary that teaches and touches.
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>>87424915
*calls Lincoln a faggot the day after he got shot*
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>>87424942
Lee was the best general they had and had the best army, it was always a lost cause for the south but without Lee guarding the capital it would be captured
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>>87423849
lel
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>>87424701
i oddly prefer the west over civil war maybe due to the sense of scale
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>>87425014
True, but they still had guys like Jackson and Longstreet in charge too.
I'm surprised they never tried to attack DC considering it wasn't far from their own capitol.
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>>87423552
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZmxZThb084
music kino
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>>87426041
Love this track. Tear up every time listening to it, for no particular reason.
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>>87426081
Same. It's really pleasant to the ears.
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>>87424455
Considering Sullivan Ballou wasn't really anything special and was just, you know, a guy writing to his wife, it always fucking depresses me that we've lost that sort of elegance.
The digital age is a disgrace.
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Lincoln's assassination made me depressed
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>>87423552
bumping bc this thread is gold
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>not Unforfivable Blackness is his best
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>>87423756
The civil war is actually very fascinating
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>>87426215
>Sending one letter every few months
>Sending thousands of back-and-forth messages a day
>Surprised when a guy puts more thought into the former
>Implying if you took tens of thousands of modern men, took away their families and put them through years of hellish hardship, you wouldn't get dozens of letters of this caliber
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>>87423552
Is this the one with all the a list actors? I don't watch pbs because I'm not 5 years old anymore.
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>it's a former slave getting payback scene
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>>87427781
>watching documentaries about the bloodiest war in US history is for kids now
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>>87427427
Agreed, both sides are pretty interesting.
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>>87427870
Where did I say that? If you weren't retarded you could actually read you dumb fuck. )
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>>87425156
Washington was pretty well fortified exactly because of that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_Defenses_of_Washington
>The Washington area had 68 major enclosed forts, as well as 93 prepared (but unarmed) batteries for field guns, and seven blockhouses surrounding it during the American Civil War.[2] There were also twenty miles of rifle pits and thirty miles of connecting military roads.
The South did invade the North twice, once in 1862 then again in 1863 in an attempt to force a decisive battle that would then force a peace, and also to try and convince Britain that the Confederacy could win. 1862 ended with Antium and 1863 ended with Gettysburg.
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>>87423685
>>87423717
September 17 I think
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>>87427666
Checked, but you're wrong.
Writing a letter like that isn't something that just comes from separation and lack of an instantaneous messaging platform -- it's a culture of eloquence. Even the poorest of people studied the scripture back in those days.
Do you really think that the average man today could write that kind of letter if they only wrote one thing every few months?
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>>87428011
I wonder what would have happened if the UK recognized the Confederacy as a legitimate country, would they have gotten military backing from other nations?
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Prohibition and The West most important Ken Burns documentaries.
The Civil War is an important topic, but it's so ingrained in American society that the documentary isn't necessary. But Prohibition and The West discuss larger, more nebulous movements that have long reaching impacts on American society today that are a lot harder to recognize on their own.
Ken Burns > Adam Curtis.
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>>87428011
>Antium
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>>87423552
>It's a Sherman correspondence with Sheridan scene
>"If it results in the utter annihilation of these Indians, it is but the result of what they have been warned again and again... I will say nothing and do nothing to restrain our troops from doing what they deem proper on the spot, and will allow no mere vague general charges of cruelty and inhumanity to tie their hands..."
>but it's so ingrained in American society that the documentary isn't necessary.
Kinda is. There's so much misinformation about it these days.
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>>87424248
I'm listening to the audiobook of his Civil War book. I cried like a bitch when Stonewall Jackson died. His last words... Fugg
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>>87423754
Please elaborate
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>>87428121
There's a whole Harry Turtledove series based around this very concept if you're curious. Ends up with USA allied with Germany in WW1, Confederacy with England, France and Russia. So you get WW1 in America. Quite a good read, though I feel the series goes downhill after the Great War is over.
But at any rate, the Confederacy had basically one chance for this and that's the Battle of Antietam. There were some British politicans who favoured recognition of the South, and France at the time would have gone along with whatever Britain said. The idea was that if the Union suffered another major defeat, they would be open to the idea of mediation.
However once Antietum ended up in a victory (just) for the Union, calls for recognition and mediation died away because it was obvious that the South wasn't going to win a major victory any time soon. What really sealed any chance of recognition though was the Emancipation Proclaimation, which Lincoln was able to announce following Antietum. Despite it attracting some scorn in Europe (it wasn't missed by many people that Lincoln only proclaimed slaves to be free in rebellion states, not in loyal states) it still firmly established the USA as the side of emancipation in the war and the South as the side of slavery. Once that happened, there was really no chance that England and France, who'd both outlawed slavery, where going to sign up on the side of the South.
>>87428208
Yeah, got flu and am Ausfag.
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>>87428121
Well, at the minimum, the Confederacy wouldn't have had all the ships they commissioned at UK yards impounded and then sold to other countries. But they'd need real backing like France gave to America in the Revolutionary War to make an endgame kind of difference.
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>>87428162
>The Civil War is an important topic, but it's so ingrained in American society that the documentary isn't necessary
Is it? People are tearing down monuments and shit these days, because somehow Confederate history is offensive. I'm not even a conservative. It's ironic that in such a divisive time in America people want to forget America's most divisive time and learn lessons from it.
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>>87428404
He keeps trying but he will never write anything as good as this
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>>87424293
c'mon, spamming
WE
WUZ
KANGZ
is not political discourse and implies no real political standing, it is funny but it is /pol/ and it is shitposting
we both know the difference between shitposting and discussing, and we both know that threads about kangz on /tv/ are mostly shitposting
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>>87428373
he doesnt know anything about it and just took Wynton Marsallis word for it he had jazz from 1960-2001 piled into one episode with no mention of Sun Ra or any important jazz guitarist
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>>87428582
WE WUZ SOLDIERS
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>>87428493
Those people are completely divorced from the reality of the War, as well as the immediate events before it, and the 50+ years of devastation and privation that Reconstruction created.
That's what I mean, the War itself was an interesting, compelling tragedy. But the societal movements that created it, and that it created, are what need to be discussed. And in a lot of ways Prohibition answers those discussions more than The Civil War does.
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>>87428646
All I learned about reconstruction was "carpet bagger" and "Jim Crow"
Got any good sources of info?
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>>87427666
I understand your argument but I don't really think that's the whole story. Sure, writing less volume let's one put more thought into each message, but NEVER writing a long-form letter causes you to lose these skills (as never practicing any given skill will make you lose it).
The digital age has sped-up our written language. Less important is translating emotions and getting the right overall message and more important is replying instantly. (This is actually my theory for why everyone is such a dick online, no one can properly understand what other's are trying to say, since they didn't put much time into their post, and people assume the worst.)
I'm a terrible writer myself, but I know very few people who can write in a clear and concise way (I even go to a top US school!). People no longer see written word as an artform, they see it as a means to an end. I think as the other anon >>87428095 said, people used to aspire to be literature, well read and cultured, now nobody cares, they just want to say 'gib me sum fucc'.
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>>87428646
The monuments serve as a reminder that the civil war happened. Than in itself isn't enough, you're right, but taking them down is even worse. People want to forget about the situation entirely.
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>>87428404
You're telling me an ausfag knows about the American Civil war? I feel bad now, I looked your guys' history up briefly but didn't dive into it really. I thought you were a penal colony but wasn't that only a part of it?
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>>87428701
The only one I ever read was Fateful Lightning. Every book on Reconstruction spends at least half the time talking about how freed blacks were treated, so you'll have to check any /pol/ knee jerk reactions at the door to learn anything. But the good books also discuss how completely devastated the South was and how completely fucked the legislative was for decades.
Over the Labor Day weekend I drove up to Appomattox Courthouse and saw their new museum. Half of it is dedicated to what happened to the county itself in the years after the war. In the 1860 census, 52% of white children were enrolled in school. In 1870, only 17% were. And that number didn't fully recover until the 1930s.
That's what's pissing me off about the Confederate conversation, when people think they have a hot take and mention that the monuments all went up in the 1890s-1910s. They say "aha that's when the Jim Crow laws were enacted, these aren't REAL monuments". Bitch, the South was finally getting back on its feet, and was celebrating the last generation of noble men they produced.
People who are completely ignorant of the era should watch the series, sure, but it's just scratching the surface of American social history.
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>>87428624
That's a bummer, I just finished Civil War, and as a big Jazz fan was pretty stoked for it. Does my dude Bill Evans at least get a shout out?
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>>87428643
>tfw watching that in middle school with all of them dying at the end
Such a sad film
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>>87428901
Studied US history at uni.
Basically I find US history more exciting than Australian history. Given how influencial America has been on Australia since WW2, it's pretty important to know for us as well.
Australia does start as a penal colony because Britian had tons of people sitting around in overcrowded prison hulks and they'd just lost access to the place they'd previously been shipping them off to when the American Revolution succeeded. There's a revisionist trend in Australian history that's happened over the past few decades which argues that the British weren't just looking for a dumping ground for convicts but rather planned to develop a strategic base in Australia that would support their trade and military in the East. I'm personally not of the opinion that this is the case; I think the resources Britain assigned to the Australian colony don't indicate that they were looking to get much more out of the place than a penal colony.
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Barbara Fields shit:
>"Before the Emancipation Proclomation, the war had no meaning, now the Union soldiers had something to fight for."
>Ken Burns narrator then says tons of Union soldiers almost quit the war because they couldn't care less about slavery and were fighting to keep the Union together
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>>87428926
You know it's funny, I didn't have so many hard feelings about some statues coming down the other year (especially with Nathan Bedford Forrest given that he helped start the KKK and all), but when they starting taking down Robert E. Lee's statues (who was against slavery and got more confederate soldiers to join the union peacefully than anybody else) I realized how batshit these protestors are and how little they care for our nation's history.
And I say this as someone who's proud to be from the Land of Lincoln, he wouldn't want them torn down either and wanted to unite our nation by any means necessary.
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>>87424248
>this guy getting somber and teary eyed talking about Confederate stuff
Christ, I wasn't prepared for those feels.
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>>87429145
They are coming after Lincoln and Washington next.
>>87429099
The indentured service (aka Exile) to the 13 colonies is downplayed in US history. At least it was when I was growing up.
It was taught to be the way eager but poor people could pay off the boat ride, not that they were criminals forced to go by court order.
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>>87429145
I'm from Richmond, so this conversation has always been a little close to home.
Seems to me that the Monument Avenue statues should have been placed in the cemetery to begin with. If you were trying to both honor great men, and progress along with the rest of the nation, you'd prioritize Virginians who everyone can support. I mean shit, that should be George Washington and Thomas Jefferson up there.
These people with a fetish for tearing down monuments are caught up in a minor Cultural Revolution that finds genuine disgust with elements of the past that don't perfectly sync with their modern beliefs, and so they're attacking the men who allowed their beliefs to flourish and grow in the first place.
It's so fucking sad.
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>>87428999
not that i can remember all of the episodes post-swing are really bare bones i dont think he liked the more bluesy type of jazz desu even on the Miles segments his music isnt delved into much compared to his views
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>>87429145
Considering that most Confederates were poor as dirt and had no connection to the slavery business, it's a crime against our country's history to tear down monuments that, regardless of who they might depict, also represent the common man that fought and died in horrible conditions. Brother against brother, as they say.
If anything, those monuments are more relevant than ever. Our country has never been more divided, culturally and politically. Politics have become almost entirely binary with little room for those that have opinions on both sides of the aisle. It's us vs. them, white vs. black, liberal vs. conservative.
And instead of using these monuments as reminders of the danger of our current ideological positions, we're taking them down as if we're erasing the past to somehow venerate our own beliefs.
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>>87429099
What'd you think is the most interesting time in American history?
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>>87423552
Sam Watkins >>> Elishah Hunt Rhodes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mary Chestnut
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>>87429272
This is exactly what I was taught about indentured servitude. I'm 26 now, I wonder how it's currently presented
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>>87429290
It really is like the Cultural Revolution isn't it?
That's what scares me the most about this, we've essentially got the equivalent of the Red Guard running around and destroying shit while the media cheers them on, I'm worried we might end up like China and have a complete cultural and historical stagnation for decades to come if this shit goes unchecked.
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>>87429368
>Sullivan Ballou
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>>87429290
You don't need a statue to remind you of your past though, you could easily read a book. I personally think it's strange to have statues erected of people who openly rebelled against that country, and for the life of me can't think of any other country that does that. If anyone else can please, let me know
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>>87429111
I really don't understand why they had her on there, she clearly didn't understand what the war was about at all and there were so many other historians who could have explained the impact of slavery on the war better than her.
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>>87428926
People from the area remember that stuff. I mean there was a reason Vicksburg didn't celebrate the Fourth of July for a hundred years after the fact.
Hell, where I grew up people hated the Confederacy. But that was because Texas sent all the good young men to die in Virginia and similar places while the Comanche, the Apache and the Mexicans were running roughshod over the actual people of frontier Texas. Of course the Federals finally took care of that after the war. Shame there's not more shows about that. Though I would guess that's due to modern shame and junk.
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>>87429462
France
England
Germany
Spain
Italy
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>>87429462
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Oliver_Cromwell,_Westminster
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>>87429462
You don't need a book to remind you of history dude, just use the internet.
In fact we should ban and burn all these books, it's 2017 people.
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>>87429347
19th century. You have the Louisiana Purchase which doubles the size of the US, the beginnings of the disputes over slavery which will culminate in the Civil War with the Missouri Compromise, Andrew Jackson's presidency which marks the shift from statesmen Presidents to populist Presidents, the Mexican War which completes the rest of the establishment of the continental US, the Civil War itself which shows us trench warfare, the power of rifles and the increasing dominance of artillery on modern battlefields plus the importance of railways, Monitor vs Merrimac instantly obsoletes almost every navy in the world, what the Civil War means for the meaning of the United States (should States or the Federal government have the last say, before the war it's States, afterwards, it's Federals) westward expansion after the war and increasing industrialization, mass migration from Europe and the beginnings of the prohibition movement right up to the Spanish-American war which establishes the US as a colonial power.
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>>87429504
I don't mean to sound picky but like, actual examples. I don't know enough world history to know where to start looking at any of these countries
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>>87429462
That's where the gap between state and nation is. The Lee family lived in Virginia since the end of the 17th century, they were part of Virginia since before there was a United States. And in reaffirming that loyalty, he gave up pretty much everything he owned, except his honor.
Here's where it gets personal to me. People like to say "but why don't they just put it in a museum". They think they're saying, put that in a context where people can learn from it, but where it doesn't impinge on their lives. I get that. But I have two responses; one, it's the onus of the state to remember the men who put their lives and fortunes on the line to defend the state in its hour of need. When a government body rejects those men, it dishonors them and itself. Two, to me, Virginia already is a museum. Every town and every highway is choked with markers and signposts explaining how the place was founded and who lived there and what was going on. Every other field is a Revolutionary War battlefield or a Civil War battlefield or the home to a Medal of Honor recipient or the first incorporated city by the British or the home of a president. There is no better context for a statue of Robert E Lee than a street of the capitol he fought to create. I personally think they'd be more appropriate in the city cemetery, but that's not the public discussion right now.
If I were in BLM, I'd be more offended by the Arthur Ashe statue. It gives the impression that they couldn't find someone more admirable than a tennis player with AIDS.
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>>87429594
Ya but we still have documents from that era, it's not like we're erasing history. It's still there and it's still taught, the only conceivable reason I can think of to have these statues is to tolerate the south which wanted to cling on to the antebellum period like it's life depended on it. Turns out it didn't and that black people don't need to be slaves, then a bunch of statues go up in the 20s because the south is butt hurt that they have to play nice
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>>87423754
You thought it was going to be about jizz jackass
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>>87429462
You act like the French don't still admire Napoleon or the Russians don't fondly remember Peter the Great.
And the Southerners are not magically Yankees despite losing the war. They're the same people, descended from the same people. Just because they lost the war doesn't mean they didn't admire the people who fought on their behalf and wanted to memorialize them. Not even like there was much of a change in government at the state level after the war. You know how many senators and such took their old seats back in Congress?
It's really no different than all the open rebellion of stuff like sanctuary cities or "not my president" today. Just the other side of the coin over a century ago.
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>>87429665
This makes sense although it gets weird when you see a Lee statue in Louisiana. Lee is a rare case because he actually did give it all up for honor and to defend his home state, even when he didn't want to leave the union so it really seems like it should be on a case to case basis as oppose to a general destroy all statues clause
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>>87429708
I hope you realize most soldiers (including Robert E. Lee) didn't fight the war to preserve slavery but rather to defend their own states (which were eseentially like nation-states before the war).
They had statues put up because, like another poster said here, they had a lot of their shit wiped out during the war and the south didn't recover until the turn of the century:
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>>87429708
Statues are icons that depict individuals that did great deeds for their society. The entire point is they don't 'need' to exist'. We don't 'need' the Washington Monument or the Statue of Liberty or the big shiny bean in Chicago. But they still serve a purpose.
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>>87429708
>bunch of statues go up in the 20s because the south is butt hurt that they have to play nice
Most of the statues are the 1890's, and the reason they're not earlier is because
A:It was illegal to put up Confederate monuments during Reconstruction and for a time afterward
B:That was when a bunch of the war veterans were beginning to die off
>>
Sometimes I wonder if Lincoln would have handled Reconstruction better than his successors (especially Johnson), it's a shame he only got to live to see a few days of peace before being assassinated.
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>>87429811
I agree with that. Not every Southern town needs a statue of Lee and Jackson. Birmingham has a Confederate monument, and Birmingham didn't even exist during the war.
But when the mayor of New Orleans called PGT Beauregard a terrorist and a traitor as he had the monument torn down, you realize that there's more than just a reordering of priorities. There's a social conflict happening that finds anything opposed to current social dogma to be heretical.
There's some rally planned for Richmond on the 12th, and I'm half considering going with a sign that just says "I'd like to talk" and just find out how much these people are actually against police brutality or whatever, and how many are genuinely opposed to a statue of Longstreet.
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>>87429784
I definitely get it, the north just rolls over your house and town, you're not just going to love them, and it's why I think the civil war is fascinating because the wound is so clearly there today, but the main difference between the north and south was slavery and to still but mad that that was taken away from you seems childish, I understand how grudges last for centuries but at a certain point it just seems immature
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>>87423685
>Skipping Korean War in favor of it ain't me
Literally what did Ken Burns mean by this?
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>>87429866
Lincoln was positively obsessed with preserving the Union and treating members of the Confederate cabinet with respect. He would have actually transitioned the South out from military governorships into functioning governments in less than five years.
Johnson was scum. Literally the worst possible president at that point in history. A vindictive, dimwitted bully.
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>>87429866
Of course he would have. He was about the only reason that Southerners were treated as Americans in the late stages and at the conclusion of the war. The people who wanted to punish the South in Washington were legion. Fuck Booth. Lincoln was a problem for the Confederacy in the early war because he was the only guy with the balls to prosecute a proper war. But he wanted unity most of all and that would have been so helpful in the post war period.
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>>87429896
I've thought about doing this too just to see thoughts on both sides but I'm afraid I'd get doxxed by some faggot, it's scary how little we're able to question society's decisions in this digital age.
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>>87429926
Korean War had no notable impact on American society. People just treated it like the post-credits sequence on WWII. And Ken Burns is mostly about social movements.
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>>87423552
Whats so civil about war anyway?
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>>87429866
Lincoln 100% would have done it better. He wanted to bring the Union back together, and was willing to do anything to do so. Remember this is the guy who said if he could hold the Union together by freeing all the slaves he'd do it, and if he could hold the Union together by freeing no slaves he'd do that too.
His assassination gave all the of the extremists in his party who wanted to smash the South apart free reign to do exactly that. Just like at Fort Sumter the Confederacy proved its amazing ability to fuck up every time by assassinating the one guy who could actually keep the extreme Republicans in check.
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>>87423552
ken burns is an actual propagandist
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>>87429943
>>87429945
>tfw will never live in a world where Lincoln lived, got Reconstruction done in his second term, and brought real harmony to the US while making sure all sides were treated with respect
He's still one of the best we ever had (despite certain constitutional violations but I excuse that given the unprecedented situation) but just thinking of what he could have accomplished further is depressing.
Also yeah fuck Booth and Johnson.
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>>87430050
Literally yes.
What's your point?
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>>87429945
>>87430023
Theaterfags really are the worst
Fun fact: John Wilkes Booth's brother saved Robert Lincoln from getting hit by a train a few months before John killed Lincoln.
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>>87429712
fukking destroyed
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>>87430054
>despite being an actual dictator that trashed the constitution and led a war of agression that killed 600000 soldiers and 50000+ southern civilians, he was still the best president.
Anon, I...
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>>87424248
>you are now imagining Shelby Foote trying to talk calmly with screaming nigs and blue-haired tumblrettes bitching at him and calling for his resignation
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>>87423552
>hmm thats a nice army you got there McClellan
>itd be a shame if somebody...
>removed you from command and put incompetent drunks in charge who recklessley attack and cause hundreds of thousands of unneccesary casualties
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>>87430096
It means he's great at making documentaries but actually using those documentaries for informational purposes is useless.
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>>87429820
Their society that no longer exists. Their states were part of the union before hand and continued to be after their deaths. They literally died for nothing but plantation owners, not some culture that was in threat of dying, especially because it's still there
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>>87429896
I would talk with you anon
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>>87430114
I still have absolutely no idea how the South manages to still call the Civil War a war of aggression when the South shot first. The Confederacy does exactly what the left did when Trump was elected and threw a gigantic tantrum, lashing out at the new President before he even did anything. The blame for the war is entirely on the South; that is not a war of aggression on anyone's part but the Confederacy.
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>>87429902
People aren't mad that slavery was taken away. People were mad that their homes were invaded and everything they loved burned down. The South didn't kick things off by invading the North or start a shooting war. They tried to take their ball and go home.
Hell, the only reason some people were pissed about ending slavery before the war was because they wouldn't get any compensation for what they considered lost property. Like the government coming in and taking your car and going "Welp, gas cars hurt the environment so it's immoral for you to have one. Fuck you and have a nice day." No cash, no compensation, no nothing. And then imagine the people forcing that through as law are people who ride bikes, buses and trains so it doesn't hardly affect them.
A real quick way to piss a whole ton of people off, no matter the morality.
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>>87424455
>those pics of them regressing in age
fuq
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>>87430206
The south peacefully secceded through the votes of their elected represntives. For a year they sent peace envoys to washington. As soon as Lincoln asummed office he stopped all peace talks amd began fortifing federal forts still in the south. His owm inagural address warned the south of bloodshed if they didn't fall in line. The South litterally acted no different then the founding father did when they signed the decleration of indepence.
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>>87429896
New Orleans was especially bitter because they were occupied basically the whole war and just had to sit and stew under some pretty unfriendly folks. That's a big reason why they put up so much confederate stuff.
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>>87430114
>actual dictator
>got elected freely both times and personally made sure his 2nd one would be free and able to happen despite having all the odds against a 2nd term
Now if you want to bring up Sherman being a war criminal for his march I have no problem, but Lincoln and Grant did nothing wrong just like Lee and Jackson.
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>>87430341
Just remind me again who actually fired the first shot.
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>>87423754
I can't believe how bad the last episodes were.
>dude wynton lmao
>muh civil rights
>entire west coast jazz scene condensed into 2 sentences as an aside because it was largely white
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>>87430384
Sure. And there were some genuinely nasty things done to black people down there, and that's a real injustice. But Beauregard was a gentleman and a statesman who lived his entire life to make his home city a better place for the people living there. He turned down command of the entire armies of Hungary and Romania in exchange for a life in obscurity in his hometown, because he couldn't bear to leave.
What the fuck gives the mayor the right to even clean the bird shit off of that monument.
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>>87426041
good stuff
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>>87430341
They didn't amend the constitution. The founding fathers made it a union of states for a reason, so that they could have the best world's of federal and local rights. The south never tried to secede legally and instead just decided amongst themselves that they would leave. Leaving the union is contradictory to what the founding fathers wanted because they would have been a carbon copy of the us except with slaves. There would be two unions instead of one, it would turn into something exactly like europe, which sucks and even had to make the EU
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>>87430479
Not to mention how fucking corrupt the Landrieu family is in Louisiana, amazing how they still haven't recovered from Katrina after all these years yet are focused on taking down hundred year old statues.
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>>87429641
Napoleon basically led a military coup and got Franc into an unwinnable war against literally all of Europe, caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Frenchmen (and other Europeans from England to Russia and everywhere in between). Today he has an entire huge museum in Paris which ends at a massive mausoleum that's designed to inspire reverence and awe (it's built so when you walk in to see his sarcophagus you're still bowing to the emperor).
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>>87430449
The South. Your point though? are you gonna just going to ignore the whole context.
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>>87430479
I'm not talking about Beauregard. I was answering your question as to why Lee was put up at Lee Circle.
You don't have to tell me about Louisiana folks. My great great aunt was a little girl living on Gov. Nicols street when the Union came marching through the French Quarter. She used to tell my grandad stories about the occupation when he was a little boy visiting her.
What I fear is that Jackson will be taken from Jackson Square or Zachary Taylor stuff from Baton Rouge.
>>87430545
>Louisiana is corrupt
Water is wet. More news at 11.
Even people who did good over the years like Long were corrupt as all fuck. It's like banana republic tier down here some places. At least they finally put Negan behind bars for a few years for all the shit he pulled. Not a great track record of mayors in New Orleans, that's for sure.
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>>87430429
Grant I agree did nothing wrong (personally but zerg rush tactics is another issue). Lincoln did put entire state legislatures under house arest, attempted to arrest a supreme court justice, nationalized any news paper critical of him, and kicked out a Congressmen out of the country. Also the election of 1864 was shady to say the least.
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>>87430611
The South started the war. Doesn't matter if they thought they were under threat. Lincoln didn't attack them; the South attacked the North. Which co-incidentaly poisoned a lot of their chances of foreign recognition so it was a bonehead move in the first place, plus it gave Lincoln the moral superiority right from the beginning. Getting support for an invasion of the South would have been much harder without the South attacking first.
So it's not the War of Northern Aggression as Southerners insist on calling it even today. It's the War of Southern Aggression.
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>>87430604
Got any book recommendations on Napoleon?
I really want to learn more about 17th through 19th century Europe.
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>>87430604
But he died after remaking France didn't he? Also wasn't he still emperor after he came back from being exiled? It makes sense to have a memorial of somebody who founded your country even if it did start as a coup solely because napoleon won in the end. The south did not and the current government shouldn't have to keep up statues of traitors if they don't want to. Guy faux doesn't have a statue as far as I know and he killed far less people than napoleon
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>>87430429
While this guy is right >>87430676
I'd like to point out that Jefferson Davis wished he could do the same shit, but the confederates were downright militant about doing everything by the book because of their secession. Lots of deadlock bullshit in the confederate congress.
>>
Like I'm just so glad they are destroying those statues to these racist, sexist, homophobic traitors. Literally no White people know what it means to suffer because they are born privileged.
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>>87430688
>end peace talks
>threaten bloodshed in first statement as president
>deny the souths proposal to buy all federal forts and land
>intentionally reinforce in said forts
yea Lincoln was itching for casus belli.
Remember after Lincoln called for 75000 troops wich he had no constitutional authority to do, four more states secceded in protest. More would have if he didnt put their elected legislature under house arrest.
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>>87430843
>yea Lincoln was itching for casus belli.
Which.
You.
Gave.
Him.
You cannot escape this. The South shot first.
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>>87430833
You're mad because you're stupid, it's ok I get it
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>>87430429
just so you know, I dont techincally disagree with you but Lincoln was notorious for curbing civil liberties.
The New York Draft Riots, a draft imposed pretty much unilaterally by Lincoln, was literally the most destructive riot in US history until the 1967 Detroit Race Riot. Marylands state senate was going to meet to vote on whether or not to secede, but Lincoln sent federal soldiers to invade the state and block the state senate from even voting on the matter.
Additionally he suspended Habeas Corpus so he coudl more effectively crush any opposition to the war amongst the general populace as effectively as he could.
Not exactly a dictator who seized power unlawfully but the man is a walking definition of presidential overreach.
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>>87430884
Still
ignoring
all
context
WHY DO THINK CANCELLING PEACE TALKS AND REINFORCING FORTS IN A FORIEGN NATION MEANS. THE WAR HAD ALREADY BEGUN IN ALL BUT NAME.
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>>87430985
The war began when the south succeeded. There were no peace talks to be had when his aim was preserving the union.
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>>87430884
Not him, but I wouldn't call kicking some people out of a fort in your own state firing first. Same thing happened all over the Confederacy. Anderson was just a dick who burned all the supplies he couldn't carry at the main garrison and holed up in Sumter until he was prised loose.
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>>87430522
States came before Union. The constitution was a voluntarily contract. Read the virginia and Kentucky resolution affirming this. They were written by Thomas Jefferson. You know the same guy that wrote the declaration of independence and was the 3rd president.
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>>87430970
I agree it was definitely overreach but I really don't see what else he could have done, the civil war was such an unprecedented event for the union and allowing more states to even consider joining the opposing side (including one that was on the northern border of Washington DC) would have been a huge loss for the union.
Lincoln did some unconstitutional shit but I'd say the ends justified the means in his case (unlike that shitbag FDR who tried to pack the Supreme Court to selfishly give more power to himself whereas Lincoln's main concern was for the preservation of his nation over his career).
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>>87430985
Literally
Doesn't
Matter
It matters who fires the first shot. America had been re-enforcing their bases in the Phillipines in WW2 and had placed an oil embargo on Japan; does that then mean the world saw the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour as justified? Of course not. What matters is who fires first; the South could have chosen to back down and rejoin the Union, Japan could have chosen to withdraw from China and restore trade with the US. Now there are very good reasons why both sides chose the course they did, knowing that it would mean war, but that doesn't change the fact that in both cases, who shot first was very important.
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>>87431040
exactly. he never wanted peace only war. Hence why more states secceded after his action at fort sumpter.
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>>87430970
I find it kind of ironic that a decent chunk of those riots wasn't just the draft but all the blacks fleeing into New York and setting up shop and the locals hated it. Yet today, Harlem is treated like it's always been a part of the city. You'd think with all the focus on black history and Harlem they'd talk some about those civil war roots every once in awhile. It's a pretty interesting story.
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>>87431086
I think thats totally fair but it should never be forgotten how many rules he broke.
I agree that he did the best he could given extraordinary circumstances.
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Toot toot. Make way for Iron Clads.
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>>87431098
FDR was a piece of shit who wanted war too. However the Japs we'rent justified in bombing pearl harbor. We were still in peace talks with them and we werent building bases on their territory. Youre comparing apples and oranges.
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>>87431168
I never really realized how big of an impact this war had on developing modern technology until reading about this battle, hell even the British armade completely stopped making wooden ships (the cornerstone of their naval power for centuries) after this single battle.
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>>87431220
Dont forget pionering trench warfare
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Here's a fun piece of local history most folks in the thread probably haven't heard. Everybody remembers the Hunley and the beginning of proper iron submarines, but there were a couple others being developed elsewhere at the same time. There's one in the museum in Baton Rouge excavated a number of years back.
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>>87431220
Good old USS Monitor created a whole new ship type.
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>>87431236
The Prussian delegation of military observers didn't go to Gettysburg or the Wilderness or Shiloh or Antitetam first they went to Corinth, Mississippi which experienced over 1000 skirmishes in the course of the war.
At the time it was the most fortified and entrenched place on earth.
>>
>those hundreds of thousands of photographs from the war that got destroyed from being reused for glass panels in greenhouses
>>
>watching this with my dad as a child in South Carolina
it's a Southern kind of feel. Never will forget Shelby Foote.
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>>87431476
>born in North Carolina
>dad lived his whole life in that state
>watched this together
>it got me into history
>About to finish grad school with a job lined up for me
>dedicating my thesis to my father
It is a southern feel my friend.
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>>87431476
My dad's pretty split on the war partly because he grew up in both Illinois and Florida (and went to college in Mississippi during the 60's), like he loves Lincoln but also loves the South and doesn't think slavery was that bad (he also liked Shelby as do I).
I always like hearing different perspectives on the war.
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>>87431476
>lived in Ohio for the largest portion of my life but still connect more with Southerners
Youins are good people.
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>>87431658
I live in New England now. Just fond memories. You can connect with anybody. Basically, everyone's a fagget. That's the golden rule.
>>
Gettysburg makes me sad
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>>87424105
Did you know he is still alive and still gives tours of battlefields.
>>
>It's an Ashokan Farewell playing while a letter is read scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZmxZThb084
This series should be mandatory viewing for all these fucks sperging out about the Civil War.
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Ken Burns lost me when he titled the first chapter of his WWII book: "A necessary war."
I'm pretty sure no one wanted 60 million people to die.
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>>87433105
It's a bit edgy opinion to consider WW2 as a necessary war when it's causes date back to WW1 peace treaties which could've prevented the entire thing.
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>>87433190
and WW1 was itself not a necessary war at all, just a bunch of idiots getting happy about war
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>>87429368
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Walt Whitman
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>>87428162
have you seen the WWII one? Pretty damn good too
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>>87429462
William Wallace has statues
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>>87427315
>tfw I was this bump last night when this thread was at the bottom of the catalogue and got to see a great thread
thanks, guys
>>
Oh boy, a thread full of retards defending a Lost Cause revisionist
Not that I expect better from /pol/tv/
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>>87429305
>we're taking them down
>we
No, communists and paid agitators are taking them down, not normal citizens.
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>>87423685
>Vietnam
scored by reznor/ross
yesssssss
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>>87438637
Damn he's getting old
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>>87428643
we wuz though..
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>>87423685
>le right side of history meme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBKDF7H4hyo
>0:36
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>>87429896
They should just change the plaques on them from "Brave Confederate General" to "Coward and Traitor to America".
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>>87433190
>>87433105
necessary for the allies to put down the fucking Teuton for the second time in less than 30 years
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>>87440227
No, not really? Even in WW1, the formerly Great Britain, was open that they had no reason to join the war, other than to put down German continental dominance - there was no threat to Brits themselves. Again, this happened in WW2. Nazi Germany High Command didn't give (until '40) a flying fuck about GB and didn't consider them even a potential threat before first quarter of '40.
>>
>1865
>"With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
>2017
>REEEEEEEEE! ROBERT E LEE WAS AMERICAN HITLER! TAKE THE STATUES DOWN! PUNCH A NAZI! BURN THE COFEDERATE FLAG! RACIST SEXIST ANTI-GAY, ALT-RIGHT BIGOTS GO AWAY!
What happened bros?
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>>87439162
It's amazing how much the past repeats itself, we really are reliving the late 60's aren't we?
>>
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>>87440813
Liberals and leftypol acting as the useful idiots Russia and China would want them to act: spreading the seeds of (increasingly violent) political discord and not-so-civil divide and conquer among the people of United States in order to weaken its internal morale and hegemony.
IF "Trump is Russian puppet" was NOT a Russian campaign to drive Americans nuts - then whoever first started this (I think it was Clinton campaign?) played directly in the hand of American enemies.
>>
>>87430124
He's lucky he died before that shit became mainstream
>>
>>87431220
As someone who really likes naval history, this is probably the most annoying myth about the Civil War for me. The death of wooden ships was already a decade before at Sinope and Britain and Franch already had oceangoing ironclad battleships more advanced and powerful than these makeshift designs in service. I get it, us Americans need to feel like the civil war had some global significance but in this regard it really didnt.
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>>87440884
>implying it hasn't been the same shit since then
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/19/us/in-dispute-on-bias-stanford-is-likely-to-alter-western-culture-program.html?pagewanted=all&mcubz=1
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>>87423552
>ashokan farewell plays in the distance
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>>87440614
lol are you are genuinely a retard and/or a Nazi
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>>87442201
No, I'm going by what British diplomats and politicians themselves said in 1913-1919 about the Great War in the WW1 example and going by what Nazi Germany high command thought about Great Britain in their public & private documents.
Are you genuinely a retard or just leftypol? Then again, this is a tautology!
>>
>It's a horizontal refreshments scene.
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>>87424455
I have and I always will. The feels man.
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>>87426041
Right there with you man.
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>>87427979
pos
>>
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This here is something awe inspiring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVjD2DaB4bY
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>>87430720
Guy Fawkes does have statues and a celebration named after him. Maybe Google before you post there amigo.
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>>87430833
Was born PWT and treated as such until I made something of myself. Shove your alleged white privilege up your ass.
>>
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>American """"history""""
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>>87443430
Probably more interesting than your country tbqh
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>>87424942
They were getting stomped in the west so possibly.
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>>87443650
>France
nice try amerifat
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>>87443694
*surrenders*
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>>87443766
>le surrender monkey meme
better than losing to fucking bunch of farmers with sticks
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>>87443303
He has a statue in his home village, not at some main historic building. It's different when it's the state government putting up statues and not some backwoods farmers that have nothing else to celebrate so they craft their identity around rebellion because nothing else has ever happened there. Building statues based on traitors is very dumb, of course there are exceptions, and if a guy fawkes statue has to exist it makes sense for it to be at his home town but it's not like parliament recognizes it or anything.
>>
>>87443694
It's funny because you intended for this to be a sick burn.
That sure blew up in your face.
>>
>>87424331
The craziest thing about episode 1 was the explanation about how bad the drinking situation was in the US. How the hell did anything in the country function if everyone was always drunk?
>>
>>87444162
Being a functional drunk is pretty easily as long as there's no cars to drive and heavy machinery to operate, so it wouldn't have been that hard in early 20th century rural America.
>>
>Kino: The Thread
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>>87424248
Lol, fuck that dumb faggot. Would've sucked Lee's cock with his mouthful of gray teeth if he could. Sorry Shelby, but the good ol boys lost!
>>
>>87424248
was gonna reply to this with this
>>87428926
till I saw it'd already been posted
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