Have D&D ruined any characters as severely as these two?

how was varis ruined tho

>>87364942
This, to be honest

Martin ruined him alone

>>87364942
Varys has been basically furniture since he left King's Landing.

varys is a shit character with 0 motives and no logical character development

in earlier seasons he was power thirst but now he despises power and thinks that power leads to abuse

>>87364251

Stannis

>>87364251
Name any character
They're all as ruined

>>87364251
Robb after S1
Stannis
Renly
Arya
Sansa
Daenerys
Barristan
Jon
Jaime
Cersei
Tyrion

Stannis
Dorne
Barristian Selmy
Blackfish
Roose
Loras

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>>87365441
idk m8 dany was pretty qt on s7 tbqh

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Still have no clue what the fuck is this faggot's end game

>>87366050
>Book: Men broke the agreement
>Show: lul im evil

>>87365441
This. The idiots ran out of writing material and being 2 hacks just slapped shit together that barely flows or flat out went full retard. Fuck them both, fuck them both hard.

>>87366050
If the season 8 leaked outline is real, fuck knows, the children of the forest made a weapon that went out of control and what not, pretty fuckin stupid, I'm sure if fat fuck ever finishes the books it will be a bit more complex.

>>87364251
Ser Barristan Selmy, and ALL the characters in Dorne.

>>87364251

Clever characters can only be as clever as those who write them.

>>87364942
book Varys is never shown with the familiarity that the show has portrayed him. his true intentions in the book are a total mystery. it certainly has nothing to do with the "I'll support whoever the best ruler is" line he gave in the show. they've basically turned one of the most dangerous and unpredictable characters in the book into nothing more than another dickless "yassss queen" cheerleader.

>>87365524
>>87365559
>>87367804
>the Barristan actor was pissed that his character died like a bitch
Fucking sucks man

>>87364251
Love Aidan Gillian , They wrote Littlefinger so poorly its maddening .

>>87367960
this basically

hence why littlefinger turned into a slavering retard the past few seasons and died like a fool.

there's hasn't been a good conversation with either littlefinger or varys as good as the one they had in the throne room in season 1

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>>87364251

>>87367960
This isn't true.
The details and exact actions a clever character does can only be as clever as their writer, but a writer can smudge the details but knowing things their character cannot and by simply not showing every little bit of their character's work.

You can make a character a lot more clever than yourself when you are God of their universe.

>>87364251
>Have D&D ruined any characters as severely as these two?
>muh political intrigue
yawn

>>87368219

with all the evidence to the contrary, the conversations/dialogue written by grrm are leagues above what has been produced once they lost the books as a backdrop to steal from. if that isn't evidence of inability, nothing will show you why that is true.

>>87365441
i would argue that cersei is still holding on. the actress hasn't given up, she has okay lines of dialogue as opposed to terrible and her plot arc contains at least some interesting elements.
also davos.

but yeah most has gone to utter mediocrity.

>>87368355
>muh EPIC big budget battle with dragons and ice zombies !!!!11

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>>87368147

Easily Stannis.

>>87368424
You seem to have misunderstood my disagreement.
I'm not saying that D&D are good writers. They're total shit. Don't get me wrong on that.

But you a person who is not a genius can write a character to be a genius. D&D failed to make LF/Varys good characters because they're not talented as writers. Not because they're not geniuses and GRRM is.
GRRM has talent. D&D do not.
That's the different

>>87368115
not true. chaos is a ladder is pretty good. also, he had some decent dialogue mid-show with cersei and olenna. but everything in the vale and winterfell was pretty lame.

>>87368424
correct

>>87364251
>ctr-f Stannis
>only 4 posts
Shame. Shame on all of you

Stannis was destroyed so completely utterly that I'm not actually surprised that you forgot what he really was.
Littlepenis and Vagyne were made into dumb idiots, but they're still themselves. Just stupider versions of them.

Stannis was straight up turned into the opposite if his character.
Stannis willingly burning his daughter is so absolutely fucking stupid that there aren't words in the English language to describe how much injustice that does to his character

>>87364251
Why is it so hard to portray the complexity of characters in a fantasy novel in a series? It's not like it's The Brothers Karamazov or something.

>>87366186

Wait wut, whilst the nights King has been mentioned in the book he hasn't featured has he? I admit it's been about four years since I read the books, but what men broke what agreement?

>>87368474

Davos is great in the book and pretty much as good on the show, but that's thanks to Laim Cunningham. Motherfucker has charisma and acting chops to the max.

>>87368147
lol I keep seeing this get posted as if it's a legitimate plot hole or something. Barristan was good but he got jumped by 20+ harpies, while it was a waste of his character, it makes total sense in the logic of the show

Add Theon, "Yara", Euron, and Edmure to the list

>>87366050
kill everyone with no survivors

Who's more at fault, D&D for their fanfic or the fat fuck for not finishing the books.

>>87369048
>be greatest swordsman in westeros
>turn your back on your enemies

>>87368534

I see where you're going with this and in theory that is true but DnD are not those guys.

Yes non-geniuses can write geniuses as an idea, that part is true but what I said is a tangent of that by stating that in this case, Cleverness of two clever characters is hindered by people they employ to write layered story structure and actions in their character voices that seem as smart as they were before.

They had Varys, I'm ten moves ahead of everyone in an argument with Dany, that's just not his character, same with Littlefinger pulling obviously dumb moves just so they can kill him off and narrow story down.

It's one thing to pivot the story to where it needs to go and another to shave off everything that made them what they were, even in show universe.

>>87368776
The Night's King is a totally different unrelated character to the one in the show.
The leader of the White Walkers has never been seen yet.

I'm extrapolating a bit when I say "Men broke the agreement" but it's clear that's where it's going to go.
Martin doesn't do anything without oodles of foreshadowing, and there's lots of it to show that a long time ago, Men and the Others made a deal, just like how Men made a deal with the Children. It involved something to do with the Night's Watch (hence the giant face under the Night Fort, the original primary keep for the NW) and the sacrifice/offering of babies (how Craster is kept safe).
Men stopped doing something important and now the Others are pissed.

The story will end with Jon negotiating a new agreement. It won't end like in the show, where the main big bad guy is killed and all his minions explode like a video game

>>87365314
I don't care any of themn

>>87368958
The problem with Davos on the show is that he's popular, so D&D are giving him meme lines all the time
The ruined Tormund, the Hound, and Bronn the same way
>lol cocks cunt

>>87368722
Complexity requires good dialogue and good dialogue requires good writers

>>87369262
"oh shit dabid i don't know what to write for the hound!"
>"get him to tell another character to piss/fuck off"
>"BRAVO DABID!111"

>>87369262
I don't think Davos has been turned into a meme, he has some nice lines, the throwback with him correcting Jons grammar after Stannis did the same to him was a nice touch and almost very missable. Cunningham plays the guy with too much warmth for him to be a meme.

>>87369205

Ah yeah, wasn't the books Nights King an ex Lors Commander, I remember now, fell in love with some woman didn't he? He echoes Mance a bit in that effect, who as we know is another fucker still alive in the books.

>>87369394
davos is a dog turd of a character now. him begging melisandre to bring back jon from the dead was one of the most retarded things i've ever seen in this show.
>davos suddenly cares very deeply about this dead guy
>davos suddenly wants to use black magic to bring him back to life even though he had no reason to think it possible
>davos protects jon's body for a few episodes because uhhhh......

>>87369507
I think the bookNight's King is meant to foreshadow Jon's involve with the Others.
They're both given special numbers (13th vs the 99Xth)
They're both Starks (he believes he is)
They're both said to have betrayed the Watch

Jon is going to go negotiate with the Others after he is raised from the dead as something not quite human.

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>>87369575
>davos suddenly cares way more about jon snow than stannis

>>87367998
Sauc

>>87369627
Will Jon get an Other woman like the Night's King?

>>87369732
Maybe he'll raise Ygritte

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>Duuuude Jon Snow never lies and cannot be deceitful!

>>87369801
He was pretty shit at that though

>>87369575
also i have to say that the season in which jon comes back was the hackiest D&D have been yet.

just utterly bizarre decisions all around that were completely out of pace with the tone of GOT.

a lot of the things in GOT are about giving and taking. think about how dany saves those women but then loves khal drogo and her baby. cat comes back to life as lady stoneheart except she is not the way she was when she was alive. many other cases where there are consequences for a character's actions.

so what do D&D do when jon snow dies? they bring him back to life, no problems, never been healthier.

what do they do when arya loses her sight? they give her her sight back after a couple of episodes, have her training with a broom for a season, and suddenly she's good enough with a fucking hot poker that she can stand toe to toe with fucking brienne of tarth. oh yeah and remember how she went against the teachings of the house of black and white and got punished for it? well now she doesn't give a shit about the teachings anymore.

hack fraud writing

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>>87364251
It'd be quicker to list the characters they didn't fuck up but I firmly believe Loras got screwed the hardest by the show. They completely dismantled him and turned him into a generic victimized homo to tug at some SJW heartstrings.

>>87369698
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfvVluNxujc&feature=youtu.be&t=1h13m10s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRLgHAfXIYo

>>87364251
Simple, they deleted two of their major plot lines

Book Littlefinger is actually taking over the Vale and book Varys Blackfyre is about to conquer Kings Landing after book Cersei fucks up and actually suffers the consequences of her poor decisions

But D&D deleted the fight for the Vale and Aegon Blackfyre plotlines, so here we are

Ruines characters:
>Stannis: from rationalist tactical genius to a ballsack-looking loser faggot, who got outplayed by 20 good men
>Asha/Yara Greyjoy: from an arguably badass warlike chick to a potato faced dyke who accomplished nothing
>Euron: from the mysterious, shadowy adventurer who radiates that dangerous vibe into the obnoxious cringy manchild he is in the show
>Littlefinger: "I'll try to seize the North for myself by doing absolutely nothing in Winterfell for 5 episodes and then turning 2 teenage girls against each other because I feel threatened by a 12 year old"
And here we fucking are
>Arya Stark: one of my favourites in the books, it tortured me to see her become full Coldsteel the Hedgehog
>Sansa Stark: "girl power also I'm very clever dont u see?XD WHERE IS THE LEATHER LMAO"
>Olenna: one of the richest persons in the 7 kingdoms and still loses to a few thousand men, did she basically sit in Highgarden doing nothing?
>Everyone in Dorne: we don't talk about this
>Varys: Daenerys' cuntlicker, because she surely would be best for the Realm
>Tyrion: was a really clever figure, now only dick jokes, dwarf jokes, drink jokes and the occasional shallow dialogue

>>87370382
>tyrion becomes advisor to dany
>dany disappears
>he walks around making dick jokes with varys
>he sits making dick jokes with grey worm
>he drinks with miss sandy and grey worm in possibly some of the worst scenes in the entire show

god.

>>87370349
>Book Littlefinger is actually taking over the Vale
Show littlefinger already HAD the Vale

>>87367980
>his true intentions in the book are a total mystery

so they are in the show?

it's almost varys has been lying and betraying for the entirety of the show

>>87369182

Do we really blame the fat fuck for catching up on decades of missed pussy?

>>87370630
No he didn't, he manipulated Robin into putting Royce in his place, then ran off with the Vale army being led by Royce

Then Sansa tells Royce everything, and knowing the Starks have his back and Robin is 1000 miles away, he betrays Littlefinger

So Littlefinger never controlled the Vale like he's intending to in the books, he only controlled Robin, and lost his life trying to fuck with Sansa and Arya while Bran can literally see through everything he died because he's a god and Littlefinger is only a man, and Robin wasn't there to stop his execution

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>>87364251
>we will never see these two characters have a denouement together

>>87369998
I can't believe we can look at GRRM and say he did "subtle and realistic gay characters"

>>87370805
Oh come on, he had one job. If he published a new book, even the people who never ever read books were gonna buy and talk the shit out of it.

Instead we're having d&d literally rape grrm's work. Happened because he let it.

>>87369205
Where does the God's Eye fit in (if at all) do you reckon?

>>87369801
He didn't lie, he was true to his oath.

>>87373048
Literally God's Eye, I don't think will feature, but the idea of it will.
The Pact was an important moment and the geography itself recognizes it.

I think that the "place where Men and Others made peace" will be mentioned somehow.
Maybe it's the Fist of the First Men.
Or more likely, it's the Night Fort.

When the Wall is taken down, there'll be ruins or something. Like Nagga's Bones.

>>87371168
The best thing to see (if we ever see him again) will be Robin when he finds out 'uncle' Peter is dead and his reaction of zero fucks and appointment of Royce as 'Protector'

>>87369196
>be 60+ and be expected to fight a literal horde of opponents
>plot hole that he didn't win