/noir/

Okay. Uhh... The Maltese Falcon is actually more like "proto-noir", not yet distinctive enough to define an entire genre (even though some people, like Steve Neal, would argue that 'film noir' cannot be regarded as a proper genre to start with) but sowing the seeds, if you will.

The definitive Bogey-fronted film noir would be The Big Sleep. And I guess the first film that really CONSCIOUSLY pushed every noir-button might've been Out of the Past.

inherent vice da bes'

>>87207671
what about Double Indemnity?that seemed to be doing it consciously

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>someone recommends The Long Goodbye
>it's nothing but Elliot Gould smoking and mumbling incoherently for two hours and Altman utterly wasting Sterling Hayden.

The Third Man was good though.

>>87207336
I guess one of the main problems associated with film noir as a genre would be the fact that a lot of films within the 'noir canon' (as defined by Borde and Chaumenton) actually belong to a rather wide variety of supergenres.
There would be the examples mentioned in >>87207671 which are (hard-boiled) detective stories. But then you have films like Double Indemnity, whose protagonist is an insurance salesman and whose plot focuses on a criminal scheme (the plotting, not the revelation thereof).
You got cop movies, gangster films etc.

The justification for still deeming noir a genre is twofold though:
Firstly, the increasing implemenation of rather homogenous stylistic and narrative tropes, which would usually be associated with the establishment of a genre.
And secondly – an "ex post facto"-reason if you will – the establishment of 'neo-noir', which draws from elements that have been deliberately defined as 'noir' beforehand.

>>87208067
>it's nothing but Elliot Gould smoking and mumbling incoherently for two hours
Sounds like a 10/10

>>87207992
see
>>87208093

Yeah, I had almost forgotten abolut double indemnity at first, my bad!
Still, Double Indemnity INTRODUCED some elements, such as flashback narration, to the genre whereas Out of the Past draws frwon these pre-established elements.

And don't forget that Billy Wilder specifically named German Expressionism as one of his chief influences (such as the film's use of low key lighting, which would subsequently become an asset of 'noir' as a whole) but at that point, it wasn't like he was deliberately trying to cement a NEW genre's stylistic trends and tropes.

some good ones ive watched recently that dont get mentioned enough

The Sniper
Murder By Contract
99 River Street
The Harder They Fall

>>87207671
"The Big Sleep" is such a fun movie, but apparantly even Howard Hawks couldn't keep track of the plot.
What the movie really has going for it are its ladies though: Lauren Bacall, qt Margot Vickers and then it even has a brunette Dorothy Malone in this wonderful scene:
https://youtu.be/3t8H07c30io

Remember guys: Always bring "a bottle of pretty good rye", if you plan on forgetting your coat in your car.

>>87208511
*Martha Vickers

not Margot.

>>87208459
Noted. Thanks

>>87208511
>apparantly even Howard Hawks couldn't keep track of the plot

they had to severely tone down every sort of sexual implication found in Chandler's original novel thanks to the Hays Code.
But fortunately Hawks' real strength was always the direction of dialogue and Chandler's novel was a real treasure trove of quips and witticisms.
Add to that the chemistry between Bogart and Bacall and you get an extremely fun movie despite an overly convoluted plot.

>>87208222
You're a fucking clown. Citizen Kane is what largely shaped noir and Maltese Falcon was influenced by it before release

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>>87209822
heh... hehehehe.

>>87209879
Your crying is cute. Please continue.

>>87208149
It really is

>>87210277
You only like it for le wacky plotline and talks about suicide.

What's the appeal of genreshit?

>>87210396
that you can discuss whether or not it's actually GENREshit.
And besides, most classics films noir are just fun to watch.

>>87210470
I thought it was apparently implied, but since you're slow I'll yell. WHAT'S THE APPEAL OF GENRESHIT TO THOSE THAT AREN'T RETARDED

>>87207671
Ok uhh, despite being more well known The Maltese Falcon is easily the better film. The Big Sleep sounds cooler, has a great set-up and first act, then... dissolves into an unending series of near meaningless vignettes in which everyone double crosses one another by pointing guns at each other. Doesnt have the tightness of Falcon, or the supporting characters, if you will.

Better Bogey noirs than Big Sleep: In a Lonely Place, Key Largo, Beat the Devil.

>>87210570
what's the appeal of disrupting a thread where there's some actual MOVIE DISCUSSION going on?

>>87210625
>John Huston
*sneers

>>87210673
>*sneers
John Huston is an American great, buddy. His deep cuts better than most's hits. Hawks is as well, but he has a number of better films than the overrated Big Sleep, which again, is fine, charming, influential, but not all its cracked up to be.

>>87208511
>https://youtu.be/3t8H07c30io
Well that scene was hot as fuck. It's been a few years since I've seen Big Sleep and forgot about it somehow. Wew.

>>87210635
Stating incorrect factoids to one another isn't discussion

>>87208195
one of the best

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required prerequisite for these threads fyi

>>87210786
That's adorable.

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underrated, underseen
not as self conscious as (the great) chinatown and the long goodbye, played straight, with a fittingly well worn Phillip Marlowe.

>>87207336
Cowboy Bebop should be released as a straight film noir titled "The Real Folk Blues" set in ~1950 USA, cutting all the space stuff. Most of the plot could easily remain the same.

>>87210856
>Okay. Uhh...
>if you will
>*sneers
>That's adorable
Your pretension doesnt read as savvy as you might imagine.

>>87210851
why was she so mean to the poor gy lads?

>>87210949
>entire flick is almost all closeups
How can it be underrated if it's shit?

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I wanna fuck Lauren in the ass.

>>87210851
That nigga is Mark Ruffalo I swear.

>>87211017
>>entire flick is almost all closeups
This is a strange and inaccurate criticism.

>>87210992
People usually grow out of fantasies

>>87211057
so you like to come from behind?

>>87211089
It's not strange, it's just monotonous. A closeup is meant to emphasize. Seriously count how many midshots for dialogue scenes you see in it.

>>87211116
>People usually grow out of fantasies
lmao you're doing great, anon keep going

>>87211179
>lmao
underageb&

>>87211251
*rolls eyes
heh

Killers Kiss is also pretty underrated considering Kubriick directed it

>>87211273
*yawns
Oh you're still here?

>>87211175
I didnt get that impression at all, there's close-ups on Marlowe to emphasize his weathered visage, but the camerawork does a great job to highlight the period space in which the action, and dialogue takes place, the apartments, clubs, bars, etc. Never felt to me constrained, but rather immersive in that space.

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classic one

>>87211308
That's because the only good flicks he ever directed were Barry Lyndon and Eyes Wide Shut

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>directs some of the best Noir Films of all time
>plays one of the best antagonists in movie history in the best Post Noir film of all time

Motherfucker

>>87207671
The Big Sleep is by far the best detective noir

Second place goes to Kiss Me Deadly

>>87211317
*flicks match against wall providing fleeting light in total darkness as cigarette is lit and inhaled deeply, pauses
Maybe, kid. Maybe.

>>87211365
see>>87210673

>>87211385
You're trying too hard. If you knew how to write a novel, don't.

>>87210805
then correct them.

>>87211470
>If you knew how to write a novel, don't.
What did he mean by this?

is Ace in the Hole any good? can never be arsed to watch it

>>87211477
Don't speak when you don't know what you're talking about. There, I just corrected your biggest mistake.

>>87211557
Yes, it's excellent, i was really impressed. Besides being a good flick in and of itself w/ the story action it's a now-more-relevant-than-ever indictment of sensationalist news media/disaster porn.

>>87207336
I unironically wish I lived in a film noir, only seeing black-and-white and all else. It would be the comfiest life possible.

Is BLACKED film noir? Is Idris Elba film noir?

>>87211520
would you prefer Swahili, sweetie?

>>87211567
Then prove that I don't know what I'm talking about. Otherwise you're nothing but cancer.

>>87211735
>sweetie
hold up lemme add it to the list

>>87210992
>>Okay. Uhh...
>>if you will
>>*sneers
>>That's adorable
>>sweetie

>>87211676
>youll never beat the shit out of punks out the back of night clubs with Robert Mitchum and Lee Marvin in glorious black and white

need death

>>87211908
you forgot to smack your lips

>>87211557
It's a Billy Wilder film made during his prime filmmaking years, so yes

>>87211676
I just want the cool table lighter Bogart uses in "The Maltese Falcon".

>>87211791
If reading's too hard, you shouldn't be here at all

>>87211916
You know damn well you'd be the guy they are beating the shit out of. That's if you aren't a gunsel fuccboi

>>87212006
boy, you're annoying.

>>87211975
>jew
yeah nah

>>87212038
so note even Golden Age Hollywood threads are safe from /pol/faggotry. This entire site has really gone to shit.

>>87212037
*snores
Oh you're still here?

>>87212038
A jew that could make damn fine movies

>>87212038
Hollywood is and always has been OWNED by jews, deal with it. Feeling marginalized by the jews of hollywood is just the apex of pussydom.

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This thread makes me happy that true kino lovers know the difference between film noir and neo-noir.

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>>87212122
>>87212071
>>87212157

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>still no NY noire

>>87212297
Remaster when? I missed this game. I didn't have a PS3 or an Xbox 360, and my laptop won't run it well. I'd like them to bring this game over to PS4 because I think it would be up my alley.

>>87212454
they confirmed a remaster coming

>>87212537
Oh baby. I'm hyped.

>>87212554
>getting hyped for a rinse and repeat game

Dangling keys in front of you must be equally excitable for you.

The Big _____

>>87212959
Guys

>>87210396
I like seeing how different auteurs do different things with the same stories and archetypes. Tonally aesthetically thematically etc. There's a big difference between Ford and peckinpah, kurosawa or gosha, Lang or Shane black... Yet they still feel like fitting pieces of a larger puzzle, there's a comfort from recognizing elements you've seen before and know you enjoy while still experiencing something fresh and unique. Some play it straight, some deconstruct the underlying subtext, some experiment with the visual style, some just embrace the fun... I like watching a modern western and see what influenced it, it gives me the feeling it's part of a family, a common mythology, whereas basic dramas or arthouse movies that are disconnected from other previous works don't give me that feeling of belonging and purpose. I noticed that dramas just get forgotten after the era they've been released in, not many people will go check out the Oscar winning relationship or biopic dramas of the 30s for example but wb gangster pics remain timeless because you might have seen them humorously referenced in sopranos, thematically deconstructed in once upon a time in America or lovingly homaged in Scorseses flicks so it makes you wanna explore the history of the genres and examine how they evolved.

is neo-noir allowed?

>>87213207
Yes, just ignore the pedants who will point out the difference.

>>87213377
And what's the difference?

>>87213145
This long-winded testimony is like seeing James Bond fans desperately defend their pulpy self-insert fantasies as high art. Try harder next time or get better taste

>>87213145
>not many people will go check out the Oscar winning relationship or biopic dramas of the 30s for example but wb gangster pics remain timeless
Sound like someone that thinks Citizen Kane should've won over How Green Was My Valley

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>>87212959
The Big Goodbye

>>87213568
A couple decades

>>87213568
That's actually a rather good question. I for one would define neo-noir as 'post-code era films that are not part of the Borde/Chaumenton film noir canon, but draw major influences – stylistic, narrative et al. – from these classic noirs of the 1940s/50s'

But that's just my definition. Others would, for example, deem "Chinatown" an example of 'film noir' and only describe films that stick even less to formula, such as "Fargo" or "Drive", as 'neo-noir' ...

>>87211175
It's actually a good criticism. I haven't seen the film but it's a sign of bad cinematography IMO, it feels claustrophobic and makes you feel unease. I've seen films that use it as a stylistic, but they are pretty shitty in my opinion.

Touch of evil, Sweet Smell of Success, Out of the Past and The Third man are along my favorite noir films, though some don't follow the typical structural/writing patterns.

>>87214298
>>87214348
>Drive
>Sweet Smell of Success
People really don't know the definition of noir

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>>87214116
The Hard Goodbye

>>87214471
which would be, you pretentious cunt?

>>87214471
They are loosely referred to as noir very often. Actually Drive is definitely neo noir. SSoS is not much of a noir film but follows some patterns as I said, visuals eg.

>>87214616
Nah I know the core elements and neither of those are one

>>87214641
Shadows /= noir

>>87214881
in other words: you know jack shit. nice try.

>>87215024
Crime /= noir

>>87215075
As I said: You know jack shit. Just cut it off. You're done. It's over.

>>87214471
>supergenre: crime drama/thriller
>looming sense of doom
>set in the criminal underbelly of a major city
>morally ambiguous anti-hero protagonist
>city as a "silent protagonist"
>major plot-relevant events occurring at night
>overall fascination with the violent and evil
>expressive lighting, dominant chiaroscuro visual style

How is Drive NOT (neo) noir?

>>87215176
Scandal /= noir

>>87215290
>>87215075
>>87214881

you're even too dumb to type ≠

>>87215285
Says nothing there about brooding
Brooding /= noir

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>>87215358

>>87215330
Look at Einstein over here. I know how to, I choose not to. Evidently, you knew what it meant.

>>87215401
>supergenre: crime drama/thriller
>looming sense of doom
>set in the criminal underbelly of a major city
>morally ambiguous anti-hero protagonist
>city as a "silent protagonist"
>major plot-relevant events occurring at night
>overall fascination with the violent and evil
>expressive lighting, dominant chiaroscuro visual style

Not a mention of brooding. Is Thief 1981 a neo-noir? No.

>>87215421
You didn't choose not to. You simply suck at everything.

>>87215452
What are you even on about, sir? You've already fucked up the thread. Hope you're proud of yourself.

>>87215470
Nice burn, Arnold

>>87215502
>supergenre: crime drama/thriller
>looming sense of doom
>set in the criminal underbelly of a major city
>morally ambiguous anti-hero protagonist
>city as a "silent protagonist"
>major plot-relevant events occurring at night
>overall fascination with the violent and evil
>expressive lighting, dominant chiaroscuro visual style

Not a mention of brooding. Is Thief 1981 a neo-noir? No

Film noir is white male escapist bullshit. Only the biggest fedoras care for it nowadays.

The rest of us are glad the genre is dead.

>>87212959
The Big Short

>>87212297
LA is a way better location for noir shit than NY

Not noir necessarily, just anything that predates 1990 probably. I want to watch a classic with my girlfriend, but honeslty don't know what's going to hold her attention the most.

I'm guessing the obvious choice is Casablanca, but I was also thinking about The Third Man, Shadow of a Doubt (which I've actually not seen yet) or Double Indemnity.

>>87213568
Depends on whom you ask. Derrida, for example, would simply regard neo-noir as one step in the evolution of film noir as a genre, while others would likely at the temporal divide between classic noir and neo noir or cite something akin to >>87214298

>>87215703
double indemnity sure has one helluva downer ending. Casablanca is always a great choice, no matter what. It's definitely perfect for "couple-viewing"

What's the difference between neo-noir and noir?

>>87216178
see:
>>87216035
>>87214186
>>87214298

>>87216178
Neo-noir is in color and sunlight

>>87216278
that's "sunshine noir", you pleb!

>>87215452
actually it is

>>87215452
no mention of trench coats and fedoras either, WTH!

>>87216317
I'm pretty sure they call Chinatown a neo-noir.

Also
>genrebabby calling someone a 'pleb'
rich

>>87216352
I don't remember anyone in Ace in the Hole wearing a trenchcoat or fedora. Please don't project your fashion preferences

Why is there nothing as good as Chinatown?

>>87216700
Chinatown is literally a shitty remake of Border Town

Too Late for Tears has one of my favorite femme fatales

>>87216475
>>87216548
I wasn't being entirely serious there, folks.

>>87216475

still, claiming that all neo-noir films are set during the day is a bold claim, to say the least. It was just that "Chinatown" took a somewhat deconstructivist approach towards classic noir in not only doing away with the expressive lighting in favor of natural or at least naturalist lighting, but actually subtly poking fun at it in the beginning when the Italian guy is about to destroy Gittes' Venetian blinds (which he just had installed)

>>87216894
Looks like shit, unlike Chinatown, which is a masterpiece. What "love triangle" is depicted in Chinatown? In Chinatown, the water crisis and corruption is real, and is what gives it scope, with Nicholson compelling as Gittes. Chinatown is amongst the best films ever made

>>87217445
>What "love triangle" is depicted in Chinatown?
Gittes - Evelyn - Noah

DUH!

>>87217411
Holy run-on sentence, Batman!

>>87217445
>the water crisis and corruption is real
Watch a documentary if you want "real". Chinatown is far from real.

>>87217481
That's not a love triangle, it's an unfortunate circumstance.

>>87217481
One helluva love triangle. And what a dunce Gittes was! He should've just shot Cross in the end and taken Evelyn's daughter/sister as a means of compensation. She might've been a bit mentally retarded due to the whole parental incest thing, but heck, what a nice piece of ass she was!

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>>87217445
>Nicholson compelling as Gittes
Don't tell me you think that overacting hippie is good

>>87207336

I actually think the Big Sleep (novel) could be made into a better film. The original film suffers from the closed set mentality of the time whereas the book is free flowing and open. It creates a world which you wish to return to.

>>87217632
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown_(1974_film)#Historical_background
>These echoes have led many viewers to regard Chinatown, not only as docudrama, but as truth—the real secret history of how Los Angeles got its water
And by "real" I meant a palpable scope, and not just some schmuck detective bumbling around, solving some contrived murder, like most noir. Gittes is on to something big throughout.

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>>87217737
Shut the fuck up. And if you want the narrative to culminate in a vengeful shooting, watch The Long Goodbye. I'd put this film alongside Chinatown

>>87217861
You're retarded if you think Chinatown is a docudrama let alone the first one made even as a noir

Also
>Wikipedia

>>87217989
Long Goodbye is nowhere near Chinatown Frankly it's shit. In Chinatown you have a seedy world shaped by real obscured events

>>87218036
>Wikipedia
It's an excerpt, and is sourced. Now name one single film noir witch narrative scope to match Chinatown.

>>87217989
I like The Long Goodbye more than Chinatown, myself.

>>87218079
>Frankly it's shit
Back it up, Frankie.

>>87218207
>>87217445
>>87217861
>>87210355
>>87208067

>>87212959
Black _____

>>87218150
"Chinatown isn’t a docudrama, it’s a fiction. The water project it depicts isn’t the construction of the Los Angeles Aqueduct, engineered by William Mulholland before the First World War. Chinatown is set in 1938, not 1905. The Mullholland-like figure—"Hollis Mulwray"—isn’t the chief architect of the project, but rather its strongest opponent, who must be discredited and murdered. Mulwray is against the "Alto Vallejo Dam" because it’s unsafe, not because it’s stealing water from somebody else…. "
Did you read your own source?

>>87218183
Nice shit taste

>>87218452
Did you, you illiterate mongrel? It goes on to elaborate right the next sentence.

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friendly reminder body heat is the peak of neo-noir

>>87217989
you really can't take a joke, can you?

>>87218519
Already confirmed not docudrama. Fictitious events and lurid melodrama

>>87211057
post more bacall/noir girls pls

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>>87218891
Here's a noir girl. Jane Greer.

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>>87218891
"...I didn't ask her. If I did, she would suck her thumb and look coy." – "I met her in the hall. She did that to me. Then she tried to sit in my lap while I was standing up."

>>87208511
>but apparantly even Howard Hawks couldn't keep track of the plot.

When they were writing the screenplay they called Chandler to get him to explain the plot since it made no sense and even he eventually had to admit that he had no goddamn clue. But nobody cares that the story is horseshit since it's cool as hell and sexy as fuck to watch.

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>>87219321
>>87219681
>cool as hell and sexy as fuck to watch
yup, sure is.

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>>87218891

>>87211057
you damned necrophiliac

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Original Cape Fear is pretty damn good noir. It's also surprisingly dark and violent film despite being made in the early sixties.

>>87210949
>tfw young Sylvester Stallone suddenly makes a brief appearance as a thug.

>>87219880
WEW

>>87220133
>>tfw young Sylvester Stallone suddenly makes a brief appearance as a thug.

Yeah, and as a funny confluence, while he plays a heavy in this film, arnold got his start as a heavy in The Long Goodbye

>>87217445
>Chinatown is amongst the best films ever made
Amen

yesh

>>87207336
>noir
it's pretty dark, i guess

>>87207336
I did. Now what?

Where can I watch Border Town online?
Or do I have to wait for TCM to show it a year from now

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*Lancasters your shit up*

>>87211557
Not film noir

>>87208459
The Sniper is very good

Best Little Sister adaptation?
I loved the wicked hollywood background, and the latina whore actress made me rock hard through the book, if there's a proper adaptation I might cum buckets.

>>87215703
Casablanca has quips and lines that still hold up to this day, and another testament to its greatness is that even my sister-in-law who's a brainlet that gets asleep watching black and white movies managed to stay awake and enjoyed it.

>>87219681
Probably the easiest and best explanation of the still misunderstood concept
>scenes and execution>>>>>mere plot.

Touch of Evil is something else, features my boy ACTION ORSON and Heston as a spic is priceless.