Anti-capitalist?

>>86787523
It's definitely anti-capitalist. Considering it's made in '99, it's a worryingly accurate portrayal of where neo-liberalism has taken society's young men.

>>86787621
But Tyler's a hypocritical douche and his gang are dangerous?

anti-anti-capitalist given the ending

>>86788310
the only death caused by mayhem was one of their own

>>86787523
Actually it's a homosexual allegory You're welcome.

>>86788310
>never killed anyone
>building they blew up was empty
Wat

I thought it was about masculinity or something.

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>protagonist literally shoots himself in the head to make it stop
>mfw some people still think the audience is supposed to side with Tyler
If there's a point (and there kind of isn't, read what Palanhiuk (which I know novel =/= movie but on this point at least the movie does follow the novel pretty closely) has written about the novel after it got big, it started a writing experiment as to how do you write a novel with a nameless protagonist who never actually speaks but just narrates and the anti-establishment stuff emerged when he needed a topic to write about) it's probably something like 'there's definately a problem and maybe an answer but this [anarchy] isn't it [the answer]'

>>86788772
>>86789496
Antifa pls.

>>86787523
anti-cinema

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>>86787523
>>86787621
Of course, it's Anti-anti-capitalist tarnished as anti-capitalist.
>Tyler Durden rants on capitalism
>yet wears expensive leather jacket
>yet wears expensive cowboy boots
>hairgel like a guido
>playboy lifestyle
>jetset
It's a perfect allegory to all the hypocritical SJW and "alternative" people out their. They also curse on the system which they utilize: smartphones, internet (which they ironically use for their hatespeech), computers, infrastructure (which they comfortably use to get to their anti-cap demonstrations), healtcare etc. They attack people for capitalism, yet they don't deny themselves the benefits of it. So does mayhem.

>>86789861
Tyler durden isn't real you mongoloid autistic fuck

>>86790003
The idea of Tyler Durden then which makes it even worse and more obvious, you stupid fuck.

>>86789861
>They attack people for capitalism, yet they don't deny themselves the benefits of it.
THIS. So much THIS. Five star post.

>>86787523
it's anti everything, pro sorting your own shit out, so why don't you go do that

>>86789861
>It's a perfect allegory to all the hypocritical SJW and "alternative" people out their.
It's an allegory to terrorists inciting insecure young men using degrading language and masculinity you dumb fuck

>>86790306
You know things can be allegories to multiple things right? Like your mom had multiple orgasms from me penetrating her last night, gottit? Soon, you'll call me Stepdad.

>>86789701
I side with the Joker in the films and comics, don't mean i want that shit in the really real world. Tyler is a similar fantasy figure, total freedom with no living up to any consequences. I guess part of the film is that kind of lining aint healthy.

>>86787523
The movie isnt even about capitalism, the only anti-capitalist thing is that he blows up the credit card company at the end which is basically an afterthought

it was about weak men who were raised by single moms and had no fathers

>>86789861
Its really hard to not benefit from capitalism on some minor degree. Capitalism is about giving more to the rich and letting niggers and hobos die in famine. And the movie calls out this bullshit. How this went over your head and turned it into some political sjw bullcrap is beyond me

>>86791156
>How this went over your head and turned it into some political sjw bullcrap is beyond me
Do you even know what SJW is all about? It's exactly what you described.

Isn't it anti corporate culture? It doesn't criticise markets but consumerism and the neutering required to be corporate goon. More about authenticity than economics

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You're all wrong. Fight Club is anti-consumerist, not anti-capitalist. It also addresses the death of western masculinity.

>>86791628
yeah, this, and about fifty other things already mentioned in this thread. Fight Club is a dense text, what people think it's about probably says more about them than anything. I think it's a film about being awesome and having a big dick, but what do I know ey.

>>86792573
But what if you don't have a big dick? ;(

>>86792631
Then you're not Tyler but Jack

>>86787523
Sometimes I wonder why capitalism still exists. We already have the technology to automate almost any job. We could achieve a society where no one would have to work.

>>86792708
and Robert represents who?

>>86792631
Try a hobby or sporting activity, maybe a fighting one? Perhaps there are some sort of dojos or cclluubbss in your area? Try the yellow pages, let your fingers do the walking.

>>86792748
But then how would the important people still know they were important?

>>86789861
>being this dumb

>>86787523
I really like this film

>>86792748
Full automation post-capitalism would be a fucking disaster. You're making the assumption we could do that and have a tax regime that paid for everyone that had no job. Companies will just up and move to places with slave tier wages.

>>86793172
everybody does

>>86787523
Tyler Durden was a successful soap Entrepeneur. A capitalist if you will. Think about it.

>>86793179
I know there would be serious issues, but I still do wonder why we have capitalism in light of modern technology. Eventually everyone will be unemployed, for better or for worse.

>>86793179
I think he means full automation everywhere worldwide. It would still probably be disastrous but for different reasons.

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>>86789496
>blowing up a building won't hurt anyone if there's no inside the building

>>86793288
That's even more nuts. Full automation and a universal credit style income for everybody worldwide is not happening any time soon

>>86793553
It's happening in 20 years. Singularity is projected for 2040.

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>>86791156
>Capitalism is about giving more to the rich and letting niggers and hobos die in famine
literally the most retarded comment ive seen in weeks

>>86793553
I like how you're assuming in a fully automated society, shit would have any cost which would require dispensation and shit.

>>86787523
It was definitely anti-consumerism anti-commercialism but thats not necessarily the same as anti-capitalist.

>>86789544
it's about, among other things, the contradiction of society's ideal male, males are supposed to want to be this ideal but part of said ideal is being a rebel, the conclusion reach in the tyler persona is to rebel against everything and break down the nonsensical society as the ultimate rebel, the narrator at first agree but this doesn't bring him happiness and he rebels against the ultimate rebel tyler finding fynally the "true" answer being a male is about finding the things that matter to you and fuck whatever everyone else thinks about you
it's basically existentialism, the character start devoided of purpose which lead to an existential crisis and the breakdown of his ego leading him into nihilism and the final realization that purpose is something you make for yourself at which point he is finally able to have a real relationship with other people, namely, Marla

>>86787523
Anti-anti-capitalist. It's not necessarily defending capitalism, it just shits really hard on those that are childishly against it.

>>86793832
this and pro masculinity

>>86793652
implying el trumpo or some paki wont let the nukes fly

>>86794184
>>86793832
>>86793937

did ANYONE read the books? jesus retards

>>86788824
Bingo, someone who's aware of the source material.

>>86787523
I think this book and movie are anti-femininity desu. It's about how our society has coddled itself and about breaking out of that coddling and challenging yourself. It's not directly about capitalism although it is definitely interpreted that way because of the franchise coffee bar thing and the credit card company buildings. But these are just soft feminine things...drinking frappicino instead of just making your own folgers in a coffee pot or using a credit card which is like an abstraction of value removed from direct achievement. I think it's about recapturing life energy by facing danger directly.

>>86795158
I understand.

>>86787523

It's anti-capitalist but its structure goes further than that. It suggests that capitalism is so firmly rooted in American culture that even the attempts to destroy it resemble it systematically and thus ultimately replicate it ad nauseam. This is why Project Mayhem enforces strict codes of dress and conduct that creates a similar conformity bred under capitalism. There is no escape. The only way to get any satisfaction is to blow buildings up and dream of a way out.

>>86787621
>>86788364
>>86788772
>>86788824
>>86789496
>>86789544
>>86789701
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>>86789861
>>86790003
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>>86795158
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>>86795498

>>86792573
>Fight Club is a dense text, what people think it's about probably says more about them than anything.

Tyler waz ere, 2017

>>86787523
The important part is that you disagree with an opinion and are edgy. I for instance disagree with every single person in this thread. Prove me wrong, brainlets.

>>86795908
You're totally right, lets all club together and get this guy a medal.

>>86795498
>The only way to get any satisfaction is to blow buildings up and dream of a way out.

Jesus Christ anon that's some real fucking shit.

>>86787523
I speculate that the filmmakers intended to present a sort of Hegelian synthesis of anticapitalism with anti-anticapitalism. However, I think that the synthesis doesn't really work well.
Why? Well, do you really think the world at the end of the film looks like it would have a good future? I don't - they just blew up a bunch of buildings and unleashed some sort of revolution of populist man-children, so why should I care that the one guy who started the movement found love and healed his psyche? Historically speaking populist idiot-movements started by cult leader types like Tyler Durden usually did not make things better.
Therefore, I think that the film works best as anti-populism. And it works remarkably well as that, presenting a fine parody of populism, fascism, and communism while also poking fun at consumerism and capitalism.
The worst and most boring interpretation is that the film is straight anti-capitalism. This interpretation ignores basically the whole second half of the film.

>>86789496
In real life the sort of populist revolution that the narrator initiated through Tyler Durden would probably lead to mass death, as so many populist revolutions, both left-wing and right-wing, have before. The film ends abruptly, but it is interesting to interpret it as a realistic film rather than as a sort of fairy tale, and to ask the question - what happens after the ending? Well, I imagine there would be fighting between the revolutionaries and whatever state forces were not entirely made up of revolutionaries. There would also be infighting as various factions of the revolution battled over power. So what if the narrator shot himself in the head and stepped down. Would that stop the revolution? I doubt it. More likely that new charismatic leaders would emerge to try to set themselves up at the top of the movement.

what? this is like the fucking idiots that think 1984 is anti-socialist when orwell was a fucking avowed leftist. stop misinterpreting obvious shit.

>>86796390
>caring about the author's intent

>>86796421
>misinterpreting author's intent

when did misunderstanding context become a literary virtue?

>>86793937
Also, keep in mind that Tyler isn't just a rebel. He is a rebel who surrounds himself with beta males and, ironically, becomes a sort of quasi-fascist cult leader.

>>86796390
1984 is not only anti socialist, it is also very powerful and predictive

this makes you wildly upset

>>86796482
>beta males

if anything, tyler was a gateway though which men were reclaiming lost masculinity. norton was the ultimate beta male before tyler woke him up to the feminization of modern consumer society

>>86796479
The work is there - it exists - why insist that the author has any ultimate claim on how it should be interpreted? I've written fiction myself a few times... frequently the work of art emerges in burst of inspiration and then for years afterward I discover new interpretations of it, many of them very different from each other. I created the work... yet I am also in the position of a reader in relation to it... I discover things that I had either unconsciously put in it, or that I later interpret it as meaning. What I consciously think it means at any given moment is only a limited view into it, a slice of its full meaning.

>>86796545
anti stalinist does not equal anti socialist. you are painting with too broad a brush

>>86796479
The value of art depends on the values of the art critic.
Most art is born as imitation, not innovation.
The critic, not the artist, is the one who defines innovation, and rates it.
The artist is merely a vehicle for the aesthetic/ideology of the critic.
The critic is the real artist.

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>>86796421
>>86796479
Nobody knows anything, but don't tell anyone, it's a secret

>>86796546
The narrator *was* Tyler. And the narrator was never as much of a beta male as the obsequious, ridiculously obedient, and somewhat pathetic blackshirt members of Project Mayhem. The narrator was at least still a cynical free-thinker, more or less, who attempted to find a solution to his misery through individual experimentation ... the members of Project Mayhem, on the other hand, had bought into collectivist cultism and worshipped Tyler Durden as a guru.

>>86796586
I fundamentally disagree with you. You are arguing that a work losing its historical context gives it deeper meaning. No, this actually causes it to lose meaning. Orwell was criticizing the tendency of the British left to celebrate authoritarian Stalinism as a great success in spite of it totally betraying any concept of worker control of the state, and worker's human rights in general. When you lose that context, you begin to ascribe meaning where there is none. Orwell was criticizing early 19th century British leftist hypocrisy and Stalinism in general, not Socialism as a broad philosophy which Orwell actually followed

>>86796545
It's anti-totalitarian, I wouldn't necessarily say it's anti-socialist.

>>86796545
christ you reddit neckbeards are the biggest retards

>>86796693
Consumerism worships consumption as the only virtue, in effect reducing masculinity to a feminine nesting instinct. Following a strong masculine leader is not as beta as feminizing yourself through the philosophy of consumption. Strong male role models were absent in these men's live due to the feminine nature of modern capitalism, and Tyler filled that void

>>86796726
early 20th century British leftist hypocrisy, my bad

>>86796726
>You are arguing that a work losing its historical context gives it deeper meaning.
No, I'm not saying anything should be lost. What you're saying is great. I'm just saying that the historical context and authorial intent are important, but that there are also potentially (not necessarily) equally important interpretations in addition to that one.
Orwell was no doubt criticizing fascism in addition to socialism. But also, I think that large parts of 1984 can be read as an analysis of actual everyday modern consciousness. Doublethink isn't just a feature of totalitarian societies - it is an everyday phenomenon in liberal societies, and is one of the weaknesses that allows those societies to become totalitarian.

>>86796726
And the context shows how naive orwell actually was.
Bureaucracy is the enemy of the human spirit, and socialism is incredibly fertile soil for bureaucracy. Nearly all the horrors of socialism and communism come from the bureaucratic tendency to treat people as numbers and do lazy pro/con choices.
The naivety of orwell came from the fact that he thought other socialists could achieve that on part with Stalin without becoming very much like him.

>>86796811
>1984 is dumb and the author hates u!!! stop liking it!
>fight club is anti masculinity and tyler is 100% BAD >:OOO its not even about consumerism the whole point is just cabitalism is baddd!

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>>86787523
H-he's a big guy...

>>86796885
Doublethink was an aspect of British leftist politics in that they celebrated the success of Stalinism while condemning human rights violations in other philosophies. They basically had a giant blind spot for the evils of Stalinism because they felt a need to celebrate the "success" of Russian Communism. Their hypocrisy became the basis for the concept of doublethink, which has indeed become a part of modern society as well. On the left and the right of American politics certainly

>>86796909
You are interpreting 1984 through your own ideological lens. You walked into the book with a preset political philosophy and learned nothing from the book that you didn't already believe fervently. You are an ideologue, not a scholar

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It's about just being yourself brah

>>86796546
it's not about beta or alpha bullshit it's about how socienty sells us a "prefabricated" notion of what a happy life is, this will always left some people unhappy with their lifes without them realizing why, after all, they have whatever society tells them should make them happy, the true difference between the narrator and the other members is that he is trying to figure out why he is not happy while the other are just looking for a different "prefabricate life model" which to follow.
it doesn't matter if the life model is too feminine as in fight club or too masculine, it will always be people left unfulfilled

>>86796822
>Following a strong masculine leader is not as beta as feminizing yourself through the philosophy of consumption.
I disagree. I don't think there is anything alpha about following a strong masculine leader. Notice how you phrased it. You didn't say "wise effective leader". You said "strong masculine leader". The phrasing reveals that fundamentally, it is not leadership that you are praising, but a sort of fulfillment of homoerotic desires and/or desires for an absent father figure. No offense intended, by the way... I'm just calling it how I see it.
The man who follows a nesting instinct at least ends up creating a nest. The man who follows charismatic populist cult leaders, on the other hand, usually creates only destruction.

>>86789861
Capitalism doesnt make shit, it organizes how shit gets around.

>>86796909
>The naivety of orwell came from the fact that he thought other socialists could achieve that on part with Stalin without becoming very much like him.
Well, they did achieve it to some degree. Why do you think we have things like child labor laws and social safety nets? Basically, it turned out that the best mix is a limited amount of socialism together with a free market liberal democracy. Trying to create a society with too much socialism is what is destructive.

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>>86796950
For lou

>>86788824
what did you mean by this? can you give any details?

>>86797114
You are essentially arguing against the necessity of a strong father figure to teach boys how to be men. Tyler was this figure for those men, as they were raised in a society of single mothers and repressed masculinity. Ascribe whatever Freudian analysis of masculinity you wish, throughout human history masculine father figures have been essential. Someone like Tyler will fill that void in a society that denies boys this guidance

>>86787523
90s anti capitalism flirting with fascism

Fight Club started out as a place for guys to escape their work, their wives, and their lives, but as it evolved into project mayhem they once again became another cog for someone

>>86797245
but Tyler is not teaching them how to be men, he's just teaching them that society is wrong without telling them why or how to fix it/rebuild it
Tyler is a farce and that's why the narrator rejects him

>>86797245
I'm not saying that strong masculine figures are bad or that boys don't benefit from good male role models. I am, however, saying that there's nothing alpha about slavishly following a Tyler Durden figure.

>>86797364
Tyler at the very least is returning these overgrown "boys" into a more primal state of masculinity. Something that they had never experienced. Masculine comradery and a heavy emphasis on physical strength and the ability to defend the self. These are traditional masculine traits with a focus on testosterone and the physical. To say he didn't bring them to a more masculine state is simply inaccurate.

>>86797364
The narrator rejected Tyler because the pussy was too good. He fractured the sacred pact of bros before hos

>>86797376
who cares about what's "alpha"

>>86797222
Nice 2's, Lou. ;)

>>86797458
the problem with Tyler's masculinity is that it's superficial, it's all about the appearance of being "men", being aggressive, wild, rebellious while the truth is they're still following what this new society that is fight club/project mayhem tells them they should be (which is still based on the old society ideas of manliness), they just changed one drug for another
the narrator on the other hand finds that what matters to him is Marla regardless of both normal society and tyler rejection of her, in doing that he discovers another aspect of masculinity, protecting what you care about

Fascinating thread guys, and as far as my opinion goes, you're all right, and you're alright. But before I go, I gotta take your balls.

Have a nice day.

>>86787523
neither
mental breakdowns have always happened

>>86793832
Well said, everyone overlooks the part where all his IKEA furniture is listed and yet he still feels nothing from it