ITT: Kinoes the Alt-Right will never get

>>86534033
Are you a womyn from r*ddit?

Fight club

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>>86534033
>people think this movie is pro-fascism
>basically every character is retarded, especially the mobile infantry
people just don't get verhoeven, my dude. also thanks for getting dubs so i could use this.

>>86534162
I'm pretty sure the "people don't get Starship Troopers" meme is just propagated by smug Redditors who like to feel superior. It's not exactly the subtlest movie. When Rico signs up the recruiter proclaims that the mobile infantry "made him the man he is today" as the camera reveals he has one arm and no legs.

>>86534162
You just have to look at Verhoeven's Robocop to get the satirical context necessary to watch Starship Troopers.

Did the Arachnids even actually attack Buenos Aires, or was it a false-flag by the Federation?

>>86534277
that's exactly my point. when it first came out, people saw the imagery and thought "omg they're nazis". this movie blatantly shits on brainwashing and propaganda.

>>86534282
Everything he's ever made has had at least an element of it, but it's most prominent in those two and Showgirls.

>>86534345
The movie itself makes more sense as an in-Movie Propaganda Movie.

>people think its satire
>teacher at the beginning makes some of the best points ever made about how weak leftists are

>>86534345
>extraordinarily stupid people saw the imagery and thought "omg they're nazis"

>>86534344
Bug plasma can't direct and target a giant asteroid and a militaristic society can't thrive unless they're at war.

>>86534501
>Bug plasma can't direct and target a giant asteroid

I always assumed the brain bugs could do just that

>>86534450
Nevermind, I guess there actually are retards who think it isn't satire despite the writer, director and everyone involved in the production confirming that it is.

>>86534465
/thread

>>86534544
they might have intended it to be, but they failed

>>86534572
You're enlisted in the military then, right?

>>86534637
Nope. Actually work for the Defense Industry oddly enough. There isn't any real war to fight at the moment.

>>86534469
no argument here. it did poorly at the box office and shit on by critics, and 15 years later it was voted the 20th best movie of the 90s. suddenly people got the joke.

>>86534033
>ITT: Kinoes the Alt-Right will never get
Literally any film that requires critical thinking.

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>All right, let's sum up. This year we explored the failure of democracy. How our social scientists brought our world to the brink of chaos. We talked about the veterans, how they took control and established the stability that has lasted for generations since. You know these facts, but have I taught you anything of value this year?

>Something given has no value. When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And force my friends is violence. The supreme authority from which all other authorities are derived.

>Naked force has resolved more conflicts throughout history than any other factor. The contrary opinion, that violence doesn't solve anything, is wishful thinking at its worst. People who forget that always die.

KINO

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>>86534033
Leftist post-modernists are always rambling on about relativity, subjectivity, death of the author. So tell me how lauding this movie as an entertaining pro-fascism film is "wrong" in any way? It doesn't matter what the intention was. And willfully ignoring that intent is not equivalent to being ignorant of that intent.

Just like interpreting They Live as being a commentary about the Zionist Occupation Government is no more or less valid than Carpenter's statements on the message of the film.

prove me wrong, you can't... because the very nature of your Jew endorsed "intellectualism" and post-modernist, relativist outlooks means there is no right or wrong interpretation :^)

>>86534033
>Source material is heavily pro-fascist
>Verhoeven thinks it's fucking stupid
>Decides to rewrite the whole thing as anti-fascist satire

Kino

>>86534771
>anti-fascist satire
that glorifies fascism

BRAVO VERHOEVEN BRAVO

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>>86534741

>>86534765
Because the idea that Starship Troopers is pro-fascism is an asinine, surface level reading of the film that is contradicted by the text.

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>>86534836
... from a certain point of view. Remember the only truth is that there is no truth, goy.

>>86534729
What is your stance on illegal immigration?

>>86534741
It's difficult to disagree with him, although you do win more flies with honey than naked force.

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>>86534572
>>86534663
>one of those mentally unstable posters who switches from shit grammar to perfect grammar one post to the next while throwing out "my dad works for Nintendo" tier lines
>these are the people you post with

>>86534899
You can believe that Starship Troopers is a fascist, pro-militaristic movie if you'd like, but your view is in direct contrast with what's presented in the film.

>>86534948
go back to your subreddit

>>86534899
>Failing to understand what satire is and missing the point the author was conveying is me elevating myself.

>>86534973
epic retort
capped for future bants

>>86534969
Until bugs, then it becames fascism land.

>>86534729
This.

need some ideas for a 2 minute video for my film studies class, any ideas?

>>86534969
>with what's presented in the film.
the glorification of fascism? No where in the film does it level even a slight bit of criticism.

O MY GOD YOURE ALL TALKING OUT OF YOUR ASSES WELL THATS 4CHAN FOR YOU WHY EVEN BOTHER POSTING RIGHT, JUST GONNA HATE THE JEWS CUS YOURE ALL COOL KIDS

>propaganda
>pro-fascism
it's just an exploration of a fictional society

>>86534992
>>86535002
This is flat out incorrect, and embarrassing. Try looking at the media you consume with a critical eye.

>>86534905
Let in the sneeds but not the chucks.

Amazing some people can post here while remaining relatively normie while other go completely off the deep end.

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>>86534765
They Live is a critique on modern capitalism and ideology, Zizek made a documentary about it.
John Nada represents the common working class, putting on the special glasses represents recognizing the false ideologies, and taking up arms against them of course represents a revolution among the workers.

>>86535002
att the very begininng of the film when the audience is inforemd that only someone who serves in the military has the right to vote

these things happen in authoritarian fascist societies my silly little /r/The_Donald browser

>>86535002
>>86534992
>>86534899
>>86534765
You can miss the entire point of the movie and justify that with some bullshit "death of the author" posturing, but you're factually wrong.

>>86535002
next you'll be claiming antifa aren't fascists

>>86535060
b8?

>>86535132
>that only someone who serves in the military has the right to vote

That isn't a criticism. That's just a good idea.

>>86535132
in the book, citizens are anyone who directly contributes to the society. This can be military service, volunteering, civil service, etc. The point is that only people who sacrifice for the good of the collective should be allowed to dictate what happens in the collective. Civilians (non-voters) have the same amount of rights, they just cannot vote on policy. The military is a volunteer force and they use robot suits like in Starcraft.

>>86535129
Everybody knows that. There's literally nothing about Jews mentioned or alluded in the film, and the Zionist Occupation reading only works if you bring that in with you.

>>86534741
I actually believe all of this, no one can prove other wise

>>86535132
>>86535185

BTFO

This movie was very poorly done anyway. The novel it was based on was not satirical of anything, and the author was a libertarian.

>>86535185
>in the book
Irrelevant.

>>86535219
So who violated the NAP, the Humans or the Bugs?

>>86535132
>he thinks this is a criticism

>>86535245
bugs dont have rights. they aren't people and need to be exterminated.

>>86535227
>it doesn't count if I say it doesn't count!
You'll find many people criticizing the book as pro-fascist when it is not fascist, just as you'll find people criticizing the movie for being pro-fascist even though it is satire.

>>86534969
That's not what he is saying, his interpretation is just as valid as yours because authorial intent does not matter in the post modern world view. A view which is bullshit and must be torn out by the roots.

>>86535132
but as an American man I only have rights as a citizen if I accept my registration for selective service... I guess it's not "fascism" because women get all those rights without that requirement tho :^)

daily reminder you are expected to be willing to be sent off to some third world shithole and die for your country if they demand it of you in order for you to enjoy the benefits of your citizenship, but Stacy down the street enjoys all the same privileges with nothing of the sort asked of her

giving women the right to vote was a mistake, prove me wrong

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this and they live

just because a movie shows fascism doesn't make it pro-fascism
just because a movie shows fascism doesn't make it satire

>>86534948
>t. faggot cultivating their online "personality"

>>86535083
>>86535135
Wait wut?

The end of the movie it's just kill bugs in a completely justified manner because they are soldiers and such, if you fail to see the triumph of conservatism in it, you are looking at another movie.

>>86535165
>That's just a good idea.
Ofc it is
its a great idea for someone in charge to control the populace completely and fool it into doing what he wants
>>86535185
>in the book
kys cuck-o

>>86534469

That's exactly what happened. Verhoeven and his crew set out to make the Austin Powers of fascist propaganda and not one major film reviewer got the joke.

>>86535287
We're talking about the movie, though. Verhoeven thought the book was trash and intentionally subverted it, so the ideals it espouses are not relevant to the conversation. I do agree with you, though, Heinlen's book wasn't exactly fascist and didn't even necessarily represent his own values. He also wrote Stranger in a Strange Land after all.

>>86535395
>and not one major film reviewer got the joke.
or just failed completely

Starship Troopers was written with the intention that the society was fascist and functioned. Just like how alien is written with the intention that the society is a total corpocracy and functions. Just like how 1984 is written as a totalitarian society that manages to sustain and function.

Because you can do that in movies and novels, you can make things happen to support the concept to advance your story.

>>86535380
>for someone in charge
you mean the guy that people voted for and can vote out of office if they want?

>>86535333
Again - evaluate the media you consume with a critical eye. The whole film is rife with subtext, and the only way the pro-fascism view is at all tenable is if you ignore all of it.

Why are fascists always so bad at understanding satire?

>>86535484
>The whole film is rife with subtext,
LOL WHERE

>>86535185
>anyone who directly contributes to the society
Not exactly. In the book you needed to perform civic duty, which pretty much means "work for the state." like government workers, police, the DMV, etc.
Mobile Infantry was one of the easier ways to satisfy that requirement. In the book though they did everything they could to discourage enlistment and drum people out because it cost a lot to train and maintain the army and the war with the bug doesn't start until almost half way through the book.

>>86535395
Well that's not true. Off the top of my head, Ignatiy got it and I'm sure plenty of other contemporary critics familiar with Verhoeven did too.

>leftists in this thread would have surrendered to the bugs and invited them into their multicultural world to suck the brains of their wives and daughters

>>86535558
go to bed fucktard

>>86535558
>surrendered to the bugs
Buenos Aires was a false flag. The bugs had nothing to gain by attacking a technologically superior foe who had mastered space travel. The "leftists" (false equivolency - not everyone who disagrees with fascism is a "leftist") wouldn't have had to do anything, because there never would've been a war with the bugs.

>>86535614
>Buenos Aires was a false flag.
Proofs?

>>86535431
Verhoeven didn't even read the book, so we can't really call his criticism of it valid.
>>86535533
>working for the government isn't directly contributing to the society
In Heinlein's world, the government was a central authority in how the society functioned.

>>86535132
>Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader--the barbarians enter Rome.

>>86535558
In the movie the bugs literally did nothing wrong. Buenos Aires was an inside job, and the only human colony they attack is the mormons who tried to settle a planet in bug space.

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>>86535640
The meteor that smashed Buenos Aires couldn't have come from the bug planet.
The Klendatu asteroid belt is so far away that even if one of the bugs had knocked it out of orbit towards us somehow, it'd take the rock literally a million years to reach our solar system

>>86535701
the meteor was shot out of orbit by bug plasma that enveloped it in a warp field allowing it to travel at ftl speeds

>>86535219
I've actually liked it less as I've gotten older. Once the fun factor starts to wear thin, all your left with is bad acting, dated CGI, and Doogie Howser.

>>86535640
The asteroid comes out of fucking warp space. The bugs dont have FTL. They colonize by shooting spores through space.
Also the movie shows bug space literally on the other side of the galaxy.

>>86534162
>people think this movie is pro-fascism
Who? Who is this retarded?

>>86535816
right-wingers

>>86535467
Why would those with the right to vote do that?
Why would they vote out the guy that gave them citizenship and everything that goes with that?
Even if someone is going against the regime, he can just be sent out to a new war where the probability of his death is high

And the fact that the audience is never sure whether the bug attack was actually the work of the bugs, shows that this regime would very probably stoop to directly killing its own people

Oh and also the propaganda thats being pushed in school, media and the entire society that glorifies the goverment and its jingoistic policies, ensures that it will be highly unlikely that someone is going to raise a voice against them

.you stupid fucking redneck subhuman

>>86535328
>t. faggot who is only capable of hivemind """personality"""

>>86535816
>Who is this retarded?
/tv/

>>86535652

That metaphor isn't apt, the Roman Republic wasn't a democracy as we understand it, and by the time of the fall it had been ruled by emperors for centuries. Bread and circuses were a tool the politicians used to pad their popularity and pacify the urban crowd, which was largely made up of idle poor who had no opportunities because of the stagnant nature of the Roman economy and monopolization by the wealthy.

>>86535816
People in this thread apparently.

>>86535840
>implying it's not liberals claiming this shit
>implying they haven't claimed 300 was pro-fascist

>>86535844
>getting this triggered
go back you leftist faggot

>the alt right doesnt understand starship troopers
>a movie about fighting commie bugs

is this a new form of bait?

>>86535908
Liberals are not left-wing, they are right-wing corporatists

>people don't understand that intention isn't relevant in the meaning of art

>>86536021
This desu. Many people interpret it as pro-fascist, therefore for them it is pro-fascist, even if the intent was for it to be anti-war and satirical.

>>86536705
Well those people are objectively wrong.

>all these posters proving OP's point
Holy shit, i thought this was low qual b8.

The book was pro facism. Movie was not.

>>86535640
>million orbital stations to take down asteroids
>for some reason this huge ass asteroid doesn't get shot down
There wasn't even an attempt to shoot it down.

>>86536705
That's not how it works you fucking retard. You can interpret any film as being about anything, but if your interpretation isn't supported by the text (or, as in this case, is directly contradicted by) than you're just wrong.

Political science fag here, power doesn't come from violence alone. The idea that the state must exercise force purely because one entity having a monopoly of force is best for society is an idea which has been expressed by Hobbesian thought, but many other more true to life theories about the structure of society have emerged since then. The obvious first example is Classical Liberalism, usually ascribed to a virtual contemporary of Hobbes, John Locke. He argued that the social contract is the foundation of society, and that individuals come together in a state of nature and form societies as a natural result of recognizing the benefits of living in an organized society, and that society's purpose is thus to heed the popular sentiment of its members who are naturally inclined to take the wide view of their self interest as members. This idea has of course been extensively refined since the 17th century but the idea of the social contract endures. In modern political theory the main force that causes people to obey authority figures is legitimacy, defined as the belief of the governed that authority figures can be counted on to make decisions that are fair and/or morally right. When legitimacy is absent it's a downward spiral of oppression and resistance, the end result of which can be seen in places like North Korea. Even Nazi germany relid on a certain degree of legitimacy, obtained through propaganda and idealism. In the end though all systems which artificially prop up their legitimacy as a response to the fact that they have priorities other than serving the wellbeing of its participants will always in the end function sub-optimally.

>>86538222
lol members of society don't participate in the society because it's rational

>>86534033
reminder that the entire theory that this was satire and not just a bad movie stems from the one classroom scene and mistranslation of meaning

>>86535816
In their defense I think their view is more that the movie may have been intended as anti-fascist but it actually works better as fascist propaganda and represents the utopia they would like to see.

Nobody's arguing that Verhoeven intended it to be pro-fascist. (I think)

>>86538969
It's not a theory it's from Paul Verhoeven himself. The film's original conception was a satirical story of idealistic students who join the Nazi party during WW2 but nobody would produce it. I believe he had the idea as early as the 1970s. Sometime in the 90s he read Starship Troopers and got Ed Neumeier (who penned Robocop) to work with him on adapting his WW2 story to Heinlein's scifi world/novel.

>>86534033
this is actually one that the vast majority of lefties will never get, though some will.

>>86539086
he was just asked after the theory was created and just went along with it because he had nothing to lose, it's the autistic fans such as yourself that perpetuate theories like this where there were none to begin with

>>86538222
>doesn't come from power alone
what a disingenuous way to phrase it. without power a stray fucking dog will tear down anything you try to create. i.e. power is 'the authority from which all other authority is derived'. it's not all there is, but without it you have nothing.

>>86534033
Very true.

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>>86537677
This is just < applied to art. You don't get to decide what the text supports, that's entirely subjective.

>wants to denounce fascism and make a satire
>accidentally create the most pro-fascism film since Triumph of the Will
wew lads

>>86539137
You're a fucking retard. Robocop is satire, Total Recall is less so but still satirical. Even fucking showgirls is satirical. Listen to the commentary track made right after the movie premiered you troglodyte

>>86538222
>power doesn't come from violence alone
violence respects nothing else

>>86534033
>depicts a society superior to ours in every way
>obviously, only retards would like that
k

>>86539137
he grew up in Nazi Germany during the war, made two previous anti war films with Jewish protagonists, and is known for his satirical filmmaking. Starship Troopers being an unironic fetishization of war and fascism is absurd.

>>86539137
Wow an ACTUAL fucking brainlet.

>>86539312
>known for his satirical filmmaking.
too bad he failed with this film

>>86539307
>superior in every way
>Total gender and racial equality

Hmmm...

>people on /tv/ finally understood that the bugs weren't aggressive
>continue digging to miss the point completely

Et tu, /tv/?

>>86539241
It's because the ideas behind fascism are so strong

>>86539351
>depicts a COLONIZED Argentina
>no evidence of any affirmative actions whatsoever

>>86539351
that's just fine when the whole world is redpilled

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>>86539231
>You don't get to decide what the text supports, that's entirely subjective.
you wouldn't even be able to communicate with other people if you actually believed this premise

>>86539366
>the bugs weren't aggressive

Not supported by the film.

Bugs did Buenos Airs is not supported either, it's just what lefties project

>>86539368
>Women and brown people in combat and leadership positions including black female Air Marshall

Wow you SJW get the fuck outta here

>>86539366
Bugs were a threat to man. They need to be terminated.

>>86539366
the whole "the bug didn't attack first" does not hold and doesn't alone make the movie a satire.
the society depicted is literally perfect in every way : Verhoevens is a dumbass and fucked hard

>>86539366
they were aggressively existing within range of detection
hostile action was completely justified, as was the propaganda campaign meant to inspire the public, from which some minor collateral damage is acceptable in the cause of the defence of all of mankind from alien life

>>86534277
>When Rico signs up the recruiter proclaims that the mobile infantry "made him the man he is today" as the camera reveals he has one arm and no legs.
This is exactly why it fails as satire, all the 'criticisms' are hyperbolic pathos.

>>86539458
>the society depicted is literally perfect in every way
this. there is no satire. No one can point to any moment in the film where anything is criticized. No government structure broke down. The people didn't revolt. And in the end, society had the upper hand over the bugs. Nothing in this movie looks like satire.

Reminder that Mobile Infantry is just population control
>sending grunts down without any support (what is combined arms) when you can just nuke the planet to hell from orbit

>>86539399
There are some objective elements, sure, but you personally don't get to decide what the film supports based on 'the majority of nu-males agree with me'. The director's opinion is meaningless since they can lie and personally in this case I think they either did or accidentally made a film that was simply over the top instead of outright satirical.

>>86539523
>The director's opinion is meaningless since they can lie
I honestly think he just came up with that defense after leftists started hating on the film.

>oh no you don't understand! It was satire! Yeah dude, totally.

>watch other verhoeven flicks
>realises he actually is a fascist and the whole "it's a satire" is just an obvious lie to protect hismself

>>86539351
there isn't gender or racial equality in practice only in opportunity. The military service and political system is eugenic so perhaps it could be described a genetic meritocracy.

>>86539523
I think he tried to make it over the top but couldn't come up with a real critique. So essentially he's just appealing to the audience's sensibility as if they already agree with him, but the mockery is so weak you can easily look past it.

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>>86534501
>>86534529
Even if the brain bugs could coordinate a launch like that, the bug planet is on the other side of the galaxy. An asteroid launched by bug plasma wouldn't be going FTL, so not only would it take thousands of years to actually reach Earth, it would somehow have to travel all the way across the galaxy without any kind of interference.

>>86539616
>the bug planet is on the other side of the galaxy.
weren't the bugs expanding. I still agree with the FTL stuff but it didn't necessarily have to be launched from the main bug planet.

>>86534765
Death of the author does not give one the power to say that the sky in the movie is red even though the sky in the movie is blue. You can interpret subtext all you want but you can't literally interpret the text to be something completely diffferent

>>86534815
>glorifies fascism
>all of the characters in the society depicted are retarded and end up horribly injured in senseless wars

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>>86539616
>implying your opinion carries any weight without citizenship
why don't you do a tour before regailing us with your crazy conspiracy theories? i'm sure they can find a nice spot for you on the front lines too!

>>86539700
>all of the characters in the society depicted are retarded and end up horribly injured in senseless wars

only your post is retarded. You can debate the war itself but it wasn't senseless.

>>86539616
Don't be stupid, these bugs are an interstellar civilization. They are capable of all kinds of shit, they just use their biological means instead of technology. Claims that the bugs 'couldn't' have done are based on a lack of information about them and are erroneous. They clearly do have some form of FTL.

I just like the movie because I like sci-fi where humans are the "bad guys" but not to the point of comic book-tier villainy

>>86535185
>in the book
Good thing we're not talking about the book,ay boyo?
>>86535219
>movies can only be good if they directly adapt their source material

>>86539734
they weren't the bad guys it was completely neutral morality, the bugs were a (potential) threat and they eliminated it

>>86535303
>he doesn't realize that feminist theory blames patriarchy for this, in that men are expected to be soldiers and fight and die while women are not
>he doesn't realize that most feminist groups want to end the selective service for men or at least have women sign up as well

>>86539700
>all the characters find meaning and glory in a war to defend the human race's interests

>>86539756
>invade bug habitat
>WTF they are being aggressive i hate bugs now???
humanity doesn't have a right to the whole galaxy

>>86535484
>why are fascists always so bad at understanding satire
Same reason they're unable to consume any fiction with more than a surface level understanding--self-defense mechanism.
>there are grown men who watched star wars as a child and grew up to be reactionaries and white supremacists

>>86539802
no one cares about your arbitrary moral standards, the bugs could have easily overwhelmed and destroyed humanity in the long term and it would be stupid to let that happen.

>>86539802
bug lover detected

>>86539351
>Total gender and racial equality
We already have that in our world. That doesn't stop some races from outperforming others.

>>86539717
>>86539779
>all the characters are tricked into fighting an alien species by their government in a false flag
>glory
KEK

>>86539823
the "subtext" is fucking obvious but it doesn't hold to the whole rest of the movie

>>86539911
>the entire film is full of Nazi iconography melded with ideals of American exceptionalism
Uhhh

>>86539882
their society depends on conflict brainlet and there is always glory in battle

>>86539882
>young,beautiful,strong idealists find a way to achieve/realize temselves
>in the end everyone succeed
like it or not Verhoeven is both a fascist and a dumbass

Why this Soviet kino has not been translated it really shows greatness of late Soviet Union
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAD7XPgN9ek&t

>>86539937
I never said the opposite, i'm not a poltard btw
the thing is, the movie praise these symbols while occasionally screaming to it's spectators that its supposed to be a satire but in volontary ineffective ways

>>86534033
If Verhoeven wanted to make an anti-fascist satyre, he didn't do the very good job to say the least. It's pretty hilarious that in spite of all the intent the movie manages to paint fascism still very fair and rational. It just shines through the movie.

>>86540052
only fascists think it's a pro-fascist movie, it doesn't make anyone who isn't a fascist look at it and think "woah i really love fascism now"

of course if you are already a fan of the society depicted in the movie you are going to think the movie depicts fascism in a positive light, but most people don't think you should have to earn the right to vote, or the right to breed, or have your right to a fair trial taken away.

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>>86534033

>>86540105
Most people dont think about any of those things in the first place.

>>86539523
I agree that the director's intent is meaningless, but his intent was to make a satire.

>>86540139
the movie makes you think about them

>>86540173
>Watch Spetters
>In the end he makes the handicapped guy kill himself because his life "isn't worth it"
hum I'm sure it was

>>86540194
You overestimate people

So what are the real arguments that point to the satire in the film?
The man with no legs (we're supposed to feel sad? How is this satirical)?
Le inside job xdd (A bug civilization that spans across multiple systems, that clearly has and ability to travel another planets has in fact no mean of space travel. How is this even an argument for satire?)
The prime ministers changing in a moments notice (wow a change in administration, and unprecedented event in wartime)?
Kids being sent to war (no proof that they weren't simply volunteers, like droves of young americans in wwII)?

So this film is satire because I'm supposed to feel sad to some aspects of the film? Because there are propaganda clips? Propaganda existed and will exist as long as modern society lives, there is nothing inherently satirical about that either.
I mean if this movie was intended to be a real deconstruction, a real satire of the regime, why's the only argument boils down to essentially "think of the children"?

>>86534344
Neither, or maybe the latter, but probably neither. Remember that asteroid Carmen accidentally clipped her first time flying? That was it, either they didn't keep track of it and people assumed it was from the bugs, or the government knew and decided to use it as an opportunity for war anyway. Anyway, the the whole grand epic war was just because of a rogue asteroid nobody picked up.

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>>86534033

They get that movie just fine. There just happens to be lefties like Verhoeven that will never get certain classics of military science fiction literature. This is what Verhoeven said about the book:

>I stopped after two chapters because it was so boring,...It is really quite a bad book. I asked Ed Neumeier to tell me the story because I just couldn't read the thing. It's a very right-wing book.

>>86534162

Book is absolutely right wing and borderline fascist.

>>86540105
Most people don't understand the things happening before their eyes in the movie are supposed to be bad things and indeed the benevolence of the director toward fascism does't help

>>86536716
No. Once a piece of art is out in the open for public, it's open to interpretation and interpretation is free. At that point nobody, not even the author has the monopoly to interprete its meaning. Meaning is whatever you interprete for yourself. There may be just as many meanings as many people. This is how the game is played. You are free to criticize, express your like or dislike or interpret the meaning of any piece of art and the aouthor has to take it, he cannot object because once he published hois work, it has a life of its own, independant from his intentions.

The greatest artist always understood that and deliberately rejected to interprete their own works, like Nabokov did. Only pathetic, talentless hacks acted like they are the final authority on their works like Rowling.

>>86540105
>most people don't think you should have to earn the right to vote, or the right to breed, or have your right to a fair trial taken away.
Only one there that's even a problem is missing the right to fair trial, and people are already plenty cool with that as long as it's for a good enough reason, just like they're cool with people not having the right to vote as long as the reason is good enough, or people not having the right to breed if the reason is good enough.
This is already our society. Full-blown fascism is just more honest about it.

>>86540224
This film is only satire if you put yourself in the shoes of some smug liberal, who despises authority and order. That's all.

>>86540301
>I stopped after two chapters because it was so boring
He's not wrong. Heinlein was a shitty writer.

>>86540412
>or people not having the right to breed if the reason is good enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip_MCNEHSIM

rly maeks u thang

>>86540105
not an argument, most people are idiots and don't understand how things work
if the unproductive, parasitic people have the right to vote and breed, then the whole system devolves into populism, demagogy and socialism and they end up demanding things they haven't worked for in the name of egalitarianism and voting the resources of other people for themselves
when the tipping point comes when the r-selected people outnumber the K-selected, the system fails
this is how democracy will end, we can see it happening right before our eyes
fascism had a few things right at least
some rights just have to be earned, you cannot demand them, nobody owes anything to you just because you exist, sunshine
fascism is wrong for other reasons like the collectivism and statism behind it

>people die in a war that's bad :(((
>dude what if it was an inside job lmao
>bugs didn't do it because we weren't told what they're capable of!!!11oneoneone
This is terrible satire. Movie only works as a self aware celebration of militant democracy.

>>86540756
lol i bet you think there are fundamental human rights fag

I think we all agree that the alt-right has been btfo in this thread

>>86539028
I'd guess something like this. I remember watching the RLM review and laughing at the point the antifa were trying to get across when the solider is supposed to be emphasizing with the bug and then just ends gunning it down. It's a fucking bug, you should be emotionally stunted when at war with bug monsters. What kind of faggot wants start having an existential crisis over the perceived humanity of a bug monster.

A lot of the scenes in general that are supposed to present the fascists as idiots really show them as pragmatic, they aren't bogged down by obstructionist shit. Better to be "dumb" and thriving than "smart" and dying.

>>86541084
alt-right aren't even fascists they are just a cabal of homosexual libertarians. The alt-right is literally the alternative to the right, they are leftists.

>>86541142
I swear you jokers can never decide what alt-right actually means, it's just some vague umbrella term that you use to chain literally everyone you disagree with together.

>>86534765
>Just like interpreting They Live as being a commentary about the Zionist Occupation Government is no more or less valid than Carpenter's statements on the message of the film.
There is no 'correct' interpretation, but if you want to claim that the aliens in They Live! represent jews you need to be able to point out imagery in the film that implies this connection. This is where everyone drops the ball because they have an existing agenda and cherrypick the hell out of films. These kind of interpretations don't survive a more thorough analysis that takes into account the whole film.

>>86541179
The leaders of the neo-alt right is seriously just homosexual libertarians who probably want to defend white nationlism purely because they know white people are the only ones dumb enough to let them continue being depraved sodomites and praise them for it. It's a liberalism exactly as kaczynski describes it. The average alt-right kekistani faggot is some anime loving loser with internalized feeling of inferiority who just wants to belong to something bigger than they are.

The alt-right used to mean dark enlightenment and shit. the movement has been co-opted.

>>86540880
human rights are a meme. nobody but useful idiots actually believes in them. the nations that pretend they stand for them violate them all the time, openly and without consequence. the US pisses all over them on daily basis and nobody gives a shit, at least not enough of one to do anything about it.
genuinely, the only real purpose they serve is to give western nations an excuse to fuck with other nations for violating their citizens' "human rights". it exists just to push geopolitical agendas.
I mean, it makes perfect sense for the west to hold on to the concept so we can wield it like a weapon this way, but you need to be pretty fucking braindead to think we actually care. kinda like the characters uncritically gulping down the fascist propaganda in this movie, come to mention it

>>86541275
>There is no 'correct' interpretation
why do you retards keep saying this shit? that you may not be able to figure out the correct interpretation (which, yeah, may be the author's fault for communicating poorly) doesn't mean there isn't one. that's literally the same as saying that the tree doesn't make a sound if you're not there to hear it, like you think reality is subservient to your perception of it. no bitch, you're just wrong

>>86541284
Joseph de Maistre has good work regarding rights and constitutions. Solidifying them with writing only shows they don't exist, because genuine rights exist naturally with the people and not with rationality. It is a kind of common sense that nobody philosophies about.

>>86534033
I align with right politics and like and understand the satire


good job with your shit bait thread though, everyone took it hook line and sinker
faggot

>>86541328
people are drunk on the relativism pill.

What he means to say is that things can be interpreted from lenses outside the intended ones and sometimes you can find something of merit.

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>>86534033
I've always thought the movie was a satire on the American military complex, not fascism

>>86541328
The problem is that a film is a product of more than one person, and filmmakers can disagree with each other about the meaning of their work. Without a reliable singular authority who in god-like omniscience knows the 'truth' about a film's story, there is no point in using terms like 'correct' or 'right'. This is a good thing, because it liberates people to use their own brains and engage in fruitful discussions with each other. I never implied that all interpretations are equal. They aren't. A good interpretation must be argued in a manner that demonstrates a well versed understanding of filmmaking and culture, and has to be consistent with the entire film instead of just parts of it.

>>86541544
really grasping at straws here. Especially with moving away from the specific and into the general.

>>86541530
well it predicted 9/11

>false flag bug meteor = 9/11
>sand planet = middle east
>bugs = brown people
>brain bug = osama
>federation = military industrial complex

>>86534033
Adolf Hitler: The Greatest story never told

>>86541600
I think you're just a peabrain, pal. anon's making perfect sense.

>>86541530
It equates the American military industrial complex to fascism.

If Starship Troopers is pro-fascist, then Robocop is pro-capitalist.

>>86541179
No one knows what it means.
It was a term coined by leftists to explain the Trump movement. It's just left-over propaganda from the election.

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>>86541328
This reminds me of the autists that are obsessed with Stanley Kubrick films and come up with theories about each movie insisting that there's some ulterior motive. Room 237 explains this phenomenon of fan theories going too far pretty well.

>>86541638
Anon isn't talking about starship troopers anymore, he's trying to argue films in essence have all kinds of conflicting viewpoints so they are always unfocused and you need to articulate a proper argument for any interpretation.

It's all a desperate attempt to avoid the obvious when it is obvious and a pointless attempt to say maybe an interpretation was intentional by someone involved in the making of the film instead of just something you thought up yourself while you were interpreting it from a different lens, because you want that interpretation to be something more than a novelty.

Using terms like "correct" or "right" keeps things grounded in reality. You can always argue that they aren't actually correct, arguing that the correct interpretation doesn't exist is full retard.

>>86541530
I always thought it was badass movie about killing bugs

>>86540301
Book is pretty boring unless you have a hard-on for powered armours like I do.

>>86541689
Robocop critique of capitalist is pretty much "this is what liberals actually believe"

>>86534958

this. I don't know why this movie got so much flak.
It's protagonist is cheesy and clichéd but the themes are as anti-war as it gets.

>>86540301
the movie is intentionally an anti-fascist piss take of the original right leaning book, saying kids on /pol/ get the movie because they come to the same conclusions as the book (which is almost entirely different to the movie) is retarded

>>86541943
Good thing is, it can be both.

>>86539489
this. instead of making an actual rebuttal to heinlein's book verhoven just made a sloppier robo cop where the criticisms boil down to "lol facism amirite?". having read the book first the movie feels like a slap in the face because of how dumb it is in comparison. it's the ultimate smugredditor movie

>>86536003
>Arguing about words
It's a murican website. I would describe myself as liberal in pretty much the rest of the world and I'm tempted to genociding the US democratic party.

>>86539028
Same thing with Judge Dredd, it started as a joke apparently. But 95% of the fans and the subsequent writers were in full support of based Dredd.
It's not an uncommon thing. As soon as "cucks" (for lack of a better term here) show supposedly "toxic" ideologies in a non cartoon-evil way, most people end up liking the characters. Apparently it was the same with Ron Swanson in Parks and Recreation.

>>86535118
Like anyone who isn't retarded or a world hating loner I hate Trump, but fuck me Trumpland was some serious cringe, far more so than Michael Moores normal shit, which is already pretty cringy.

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>>86535744
>The meteor hit the earth at ftl speeds
Please never post again.

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>>86534932
why the fuck would you want to win flies?

also the line goes
>you attract more bee's with honey than with vinegar

which might be true for bee's but if you want to get some head in life you'll find the opposite is what actually works

>>86539616
I thought the bugs propagated throughout the galaxy by launching their spores on asteroids

>>86535894
He's still 100% fucking right though, just that he uses the Roman empire as a disconnected metaphor because its a popular one to describe a civilisation that collapsed because of its own decisions

>>86541842
i just realized why this fucking brainbug looks so disgusting, it's mimicking a vagina with teeth and shit.

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>>86534033
I don't even have to scroll down this thread to know that it's infested with buttflustered nu-/pol/ cancer.

>>86539521
They didn't show any weapons strong enough to blow up the whole planet, and bugs lived in deep tunnels

86543608

2/10 for the drake reaction image no (you) 4u

>>86541096
>It's a fucking bug, you should be emotionally stunted when at war with bug monsters. What kind of faggot wants start having an existential crisis over the perceived humanity of a bug monster.
t. trooper infantry

>>86543608
>>86543794
what in tarnation

>>86543799
t. nu-male bug lover

>>86543799
>>86543944
T.samefag

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>>86543989
nein

>>86541874
>he's trying to argue films in essence have all kinds of conflicting viewpoints
People have conflicting viewpoints. Films are not conscious, they cannot announce their meaning independent of an audience. Meaning is formed in the interpretative process where a conscious mind capable of abstract thought receives and processes information. It is true though that films can be incoherent and contradictory, but even that conclusion has to made by a viewer. Objectivity is futile because meaning is ultimately the product of subjectivity.

>It's all a desperate attempt to avoid the obvious when it is obvious
Going back to my initial reply, They Live! is not an 'obvious' allegory for jews secretly controlling the world because there is nothing distinctly jewish about the aliens. They don't dress in traditional jewish clothing, they don't have jewish accents, they don't speak hebrew, their true appearance doesn't resemble any popular jewish caricature, there is no recurring jewish symbolism (that I've noticed) etc. In the case of Starship Troopers, it is obviously about fascism, but whether it is 'for' or 'against' fascism is not obvious as the arguing in this thread proves.

>Using terms like "correct" or "right" keeps things grounded in reality
It only gets in the way of critical thought, the desire to feel like you're right overtakes everything else.

>>86544135
Starship troopers the movie is obviously against fascism. No one denies this, some just feel it does so bad a job of it that it incidentally makes fascism look good.

Go be a vapid relativist somewhere else.

>>86534033
This movie started the Alt-Right, did youknow Casper Van Dien will be cast as Richard Spencer in a movie about Alt-Right and how it saved the West.

>>86544365
>Starship troopers the movie is obviously against fascism. No one denies this,

are we reading the same thread?

>>86544615
Of course not, the contents of the thread is relative to our perception of it (^:

>>86544365
I am not a relativist. A genuine relativist wouldn't bother to argue.

>>86534905
A boogeyman campaign talking point that spurs retards like you into thinking there is a literal immigration apocalypse regardless of every academic and government institution saying otherwise.

>>86534033
>>86535132
>mandatory service in military
>happens in authoritarian fascist
Swiss are very very fascist people then

>>86535908
>no you!

>>86544927
>one element of fascism by itself isn't fascist.
>Checkmate!

>>86535132
>att the very begininng of the film when the audience is inforemd that only someone who serves in the military has the right to vote
It doesn't say this at all, military service is just one method of earning citizenship.

The most likely explanation is that a random meteor hit earth and it was blamed on the bugs

>>86541530
>American military complex
>not fascism

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>>86534277
It's not a meme.
Look at the reviews from the time. Veteran movie reviewers genuinely thought it was pro-Nazi and gave it a bad score.
Not because of they thought it was a bad movie, but because they disagreed with what they thought its politics were.

>>86544365
I don't think it's pro or anti fascism. It's a litmus test to see if you're a fascist yourself.

>>86535001
A trap who poops potatoes out of her vagina.

>>86542979
>>>/reddit/

>>86544846
Most relativists do not understand the nihilistic ramifications of their relativism.

>Objectivity is futile because meaning is ultimately the product of subjectivity.

This is the most relativist shit you could say. How someone interprets something or what it "means to them" has nothing to do with the truth of the matter.

I understand you want to have an open mind to everything because you've been conditioned to think it's good to just accept the most convincing argument and not call it truth but it's really just a disingenuous position in most instances. Knowing what the film is meant to convey isn't going to stop people from seeing their own fanfiction. And acknowledging that it's just fanfiction and not what the film was actually meant to convey doesn't make the fanfiction any more or less interesting.

>>86545096
Cool you're wrong. It's not like this shit is hard to find, even though it's obvious by the content of the movie there is plenty of stuff with the writers/director talking about their intention.

>>86534741
Damn I should watch this

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>>86534033
BUENOS AIRES WAS A FALSE FLAG
>BUENOS AIRES WAS A FALSE FLAG
BUENOS AIRES WAS A FALSE FLAG
>BUENOS AIRES WAS A FALSE FLAG
BUENOS AIRES WAS A FALSE FLAG
>BUENOS AIRES WAS A FALSE FLAG
BUENOS AIRES WAS A FALSE FLAG
>BUENOS AIRES WAS A FALSE FLAG

>>86535395
I've always veiwed it in the same category of movie as Team America World Police

A satirical pisstake based on serious source material

A joke within a joke and so on, self deprecating. If you take it as anything other than amusement you've been had

>>86545920
Okay, so what? Humanity fuck yeah anyway.

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>>86534932
>you do win more flies with honey than naked force

Did your mother teach you that? Read Machiavelli.

>>86546198
Machiavelli isn't an undisputed authority on all things, faggot. You are denying human nature if you don't think kindness controls people better than fear.

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>>86534741

In History and Moral Philosophy class. Learning how force is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived from. Eager to sign up to the military and conquer the galaxy in the name of mankind.

Wake up from my daydream in public school, in the twenty first century. Listen to a fat, ugly and illiterate sheboon screeching on about how western civilization is evil. Realize you will never have a teacher as red pilled as Heinlein and as badass as Michael Ironside.

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>>86546060
Bombing your own kind to justify a war on the otherside of the known galaxy, all while the humans are dependent on the good grace of our Insecta brothers to pollinate their plants for food. Mass genocides committed upon us through chemical and biological weapons, while these bipedal bone bags claim to be justifiably in the right.

Enjoy not having food, I hope you starve you chitinless cunts.

>>86545275
Truths belong to the domain of theology. What you desire is validation.

>>86546376
>Learning how force is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived from
Evolution says otherwise.

>>86546370

I knew you would bash Machiavelli.

>You are denying human nature

You are retarded. According to you, cops should ditch their guns and just be kind.

>kindness controls people better
>faggot

Thank you for completely destroying your own argument. You have no self awareness whatsoever.

>>86545920

That fan fiction theory again. Not even 'muh satire' Verhoeven says that.

>>86546497

What do you know about evolution? Nothing.

>>86546494
>Truths belong to the domain of theology

No shit and the nature of God is logos.

>>86546586
>I knew you would bash Machiavelli.
I am a different anon, sweetie.
>You are retarded. According to you, cops should ditch their guns and just be kind.
Nice strawman. Do you know why torture doesn't work but reward-based reinforcement does? It's because humans are literally hardwired to adjust to negative reinforcement or lie to you to make pain stop. Really fires the I'm neurons, huh? Sure is odd how the best valium pills are contests and prizes and coupons and deals.
>Thank you for completely destroying your own argument. You have no self awareness whatsoever.
What I am saying is Literally backed up by psychology and trends in human evolution. Trends show that animal groups survive longer and prosper better with altruistic-types of behaviors and attitudes towards species preservation. Animals that care for their young, their old, their overall communities, survive longer.

Are you retarded?

>>86534741

It's almost like a premonition of today's society. I read the book a while ago, I can't remember if Rasczak actually said that in the book. I doubt Verhoeven actually came up with that himself.

>>86546673
Do you? "Best fit" doesn't mean the one with the most muscles, it is a myriad of skills and behaviors that benefit reproduction...including intelligence, cunning and speed of adapting to new environments. The smartest animals survive, they are BEST fit to breed.

>>86546586
What they mean is that if they fear you they will want to rebel but can't, if you ever become weak you are fucked.

If you are kind they won't rebel for the sake of it, but will rebel if they are ever unsatisfied.

What's more effective depends on the situation, generally the first is better but in modern times where it's very easy to drown the populace in a myriad of breads and circuses you have less concern of them bothering to start a revolution even without any opposition.

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>>86546726
>What I am saying is Literally backed up by psychology and trends in human evolution

You don't even understand what's being discussed. Machiavelli isn't about the group prospering it's about maintaining power. And you're confusing altruism in the in group with altruism with the out group.

Also someone explain this sweetie meme to me. Is it just tumblr/reddit vernacular? Also a different anon to who you were responding too.

>>86534162
woah congratulations anon you watched the rlm reView as well nice one!

>>86546939
>Machiavelli isn't about the group prospering it's about maintaining power
And I am trying to explain to you how the world of power has drastically changed in the 21st century, maintaining power is a different battlefield now with the advent of globalist markets and first world democracies running the planet.

>>86546939
>And you're confusing altruism in the in group with altruism with the out group.
No, I'm not. Plenty of species in the animal kingdom (like Bonobo's) exert altruism to other animals.

>>86544821
enough. stop this right now.

>>86546939
Positive reinforcement has historically controlled people easier than force, anon.

>>86546726
>Nice strawman

You couldn't even deny it. You need to deny it before crying "strawman".

>torture doesn't work
>Literally backed up by psychology

I knew you were utterly naive. Let's see how long your ivory tower psychologists would last being tortured. I say ten seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRC6FwjPZS4

>Literally
>sweetie

You faggot.

>>86539501
>people being sent to their deaths in order for the ruling class to maintain power is completely acceptable

wanna know how i know you're middle class and white?

>>86540337
False, there are wrong interpretations of art. Interpreting the Sistine Chapel as having nothing to do with religion is incorrect, interpreting Fahrenheit 451 to be in favor of book burning is wrong and interpreting a piece of satire as being pro-fascist makes you wrong.

>>86547202
>you couldn't even deny it. You need to deny it before crying "strawman"
I just did by calling it a strawman, are you ok?
>I knew you were utterly naive
It is a well known fact that torture is not a long-term solution or has a reliable success rate. You want to know how I know you are a sheltered teenager?
>You faggot.
You need to relax, bud. Nothing I said was wrong. Read a fucking book for once in your life and no, a centuries old book written by a megalomaniac doesn't count as "scientific".

>>86547285
>piece of satire
It's not satire. It's supposed to be satire, but it failed. Just like Dunkirk was supposed to be a good movie, but isn't.

>>86547063
No, I'm not. Plenty of species in the animal kingdom (like Bonobo's) exert altruism to other animals

which has no effect on how prosperous they are. Which again was never the argument. Bonobos aren't even prosperous anyway. Also symbiotic relationships=/=altruism

>>86547039
No you aren't. I only dabbled in this in my own post here >>86546818 you're trying to argue people are most effectively kept in check by kindness which is retarded and not what your study even shows. They are kept in check by either being complacent enough in what they have or being unable to get what they want because they lack the force to get it.

>>86547385
>which has no effect on how prosperous they are.
Except it does.
>Bonobos aren't even prosperous anyway.
Yes, they are.
>Also symbiotic relationships=/=altruism
They effect each other.
>you're trying to argue people are most effectively kept in check by kindness which is retarded
It literally isn't in terms of human society. I don't know why this is a difficult concept, a community functions at peak efficiency when it is content with their economic or social status. Revolutions don't happen when people are eating well, kid. Rome even understood the importance of social mobility and "power through benevolent rule" so to speak.

Keep the people happy, they won't drag you from your beds and behead your family.

>>86547385
>They are kept in check by either being complacent enough in what they have or being unable to get what they want because they lack the force to get it.
You are painfully dogmatic with the complexities of human society.

>>86547357
It failed if you're a brainlet. Subjectivists are cancer and always have been.

>>86547137
Positive reinforcement doesn't mean giving people nice things you fucking brainlet. It means giving them something, this could mean candy or a smack upside the head. Negative reinforcement is when you take something away like their favorite toy or their bedtime.

>>86547568
>Positive reinforcement doesn't mean giving people nice things you fucking brainlet
Right, nobody said that. It absolutely isn't torture though...

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>>86547568
I AM MONITORING THIS THREAD AND:
>Positive reinforcement... a smack upside the head
Correction: Corporal punishment is not positive reinforcement.

>You are painfully dogmatic with the complexities of human society.
Correction: Everybody wants to rule the world except fruitarians.

>>86547568
You are simplifying what positive and negative reinforcements are.

>>86546798
>thinks force is literally physical strength in the quote
>being this obtuse
begone, retarded thot

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>>86534033

>people don't realize that the Federation in this movie was an egalitarian meritocracy

Must have really stuck in your craw.

>>86547687
>Everybody wants to rule the world
Not everyone is a sociopath.

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>>86547320
>I just did by calling it a strawman

Parroting "strawman" is not an argument. Answer the question. Why do cops need guns and not honey?

>It is a well known fact that

That whatever comes after the beginning of that sentence is pure propaganda.

>Read a fucking book

I did. Unlike you, I read the right books written by torturers and the tortured. It works.

>a centuries old book
>doesn't count as "scientific"

Great. Another 'I love pop science!' Bill Nye watcher that feels she's smart. You need to get you head out of you psych books, open your eyes and look at the real world.

>>86547567
So just because director states it's a satire, it makes it so? Does that also make Lars von Trier a nazi? I remember him saying he was one.

If you want to call this movie satire, you'll need to show me some satire in it.

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>>86546454

>>86547749
>Not everyone is a sociopath
Unless you're a fruitarian you've just not been given the opportunity.

>>86547499
Bonobos are an endangered species you fucking retard. Humans and ants are prosperous.

What are you trying to argue? the catch more flies with honey shit or Machiavelli shit?


Because the loved part of feared or loved doesn't mean too complacent to rebel even if they are unhappy because they are getting food and entertainment, it means genuinely loving you as a leader. No matter how much they like you their loyalty won't stop them from rebelling if they feel the need too, and you won't have the strength to stop them.

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>>86547750
>answer the question. Why do cops need guns and not honey?
You must actually be on the spectrum, I am not answering a literal strawman.
>That whatever comes after the beginning of that sentence is pure propaganda.
Not an argument.
>I did. Unlike you, I read the right books written by torturers and the tortured. It works.
Lol which books? Torture doesn't work, you uneducated fucking cunt.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674743908

/article/we-rsquo-ve-known-for-400-years-that-torture-doesn-rsquo-t-work/

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/upfront/2017/02/fbi-agent-torture-doesn-work-170203153405364.html

What century do you live in?
>Great. Another 'I love pop science!'
Project less.
>You need to get you head out of you psych books, open your eyes and look at the real world.
Palpable irony.

>>86547867
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/we-rsquo-ve-known-for-400-years-that-torture-doesn-rsquo-t-work/

This link was fucked up, here it is.

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>>86547762
No because anything I show you you'll just "interpret it differently". Artist intent should be considered when interpreting and understanding a piece of work. For instance this is a Memorial sent to the US by Russia to remember those that died on 9-11, interpreting this as anything else is objectively wrong.

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>>86547867
>Why do cops need guns and not honey?
ehlo ehlo ehlo, what's going on here then?

>>86547815
>No matter how much they like you their loyalty won't stop them from rebelling if they feel the need too, and you won't have the strength to stop them.
You are in this weird edgelord denial about how societies work, if a leader is loved it respected, the likelihood of dissent is lower. That isn't an argument. People support first world free societies not out of fear but out of benefit.

>>86547934
You don't understand the conversation.

>>86547938
Better to be feared then loved. Obviously it's best to be both, and better to be loved and not feared than not loved or feared. No one is arguing being loved as a leader is BAD for maintaining your position.

>>86547960
Its actually been quite retarded to this point. Keep it up though, I'm having a good laugh.

>>86547977
>better to be feared then loved
[CITATION NEEDED]

>>86547867
>libtards told me once that people will say anything under torture! So it doesn't work!

Torture works when you are torturing the right guy, but if you torture someone for something he doesn't know he will lie/say anything to get the torture to stop.

Torture also works as a deterrent for rebellion not related to obtaining information.

>>86547977
>Better to be feared then loved.
Except...no. It isn't. Fucking fedora tipping psuedo-historian.

>>86548009
Fuck off tumblr tard. All your arguments are sophomoric. It's all trendy article shit anyone who has gone to high school has heard before.

>>86548050
Did...did you not read any of the links I sent you? I literally proved your new statement wrong, torture doesn't work, bud. It's why intelligence agencies stopped all major torture techniques over the last decade.

You are in denial here, I literally proved this.

>>86547921
Are you retarded?
>make a movie with no satire elements
>call it a satire
There's making something and clarifying afterwards. And there's making something and later backpedaling because you fucking failed and made something entirely different to your vision.

>right wingers like violence they're so stupid LOL
Exactly because of this delusional attitude Verhoven made a celebration of military culture thinking its funny by itself. There was no context to make it satirical.

>>86548009
>>86548079
stop samefagging. This is 4chan, no one cares about the perception of how many retards agree with who.

>>86548085
And all you've done is quote Machiavelli. How does it feel to be a brainlet whose world view is determined by long dead philosophers?

>>86548085
>trendy article shit
Harvard studies and Scientific American are "Tumblr" to you?

>>86534465
underrated

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>>86548117
Kill yourself you fucking brainlet.

>>86548116
>There was no context to make it satirical.
Are people really as dumb as you?

>>86548116
Satire is not synonymous with humor, satire can be an exaggeration which is what Starship Troopers is. Stay mad.

>>86548120
I never quoted him, you are talking to someone else, i'm just explaining what was meant by the quote.

You're clearly a fucking tumblr tard or a troll. You're even desperately trying to copy vernacular.

>>86548192
Exaggeration is also propaganda alt-right and other groups use to get people on their side. And considering how this movie is constantly argued about around here and that its fans are generally right wingers, it's safe to say that it's their propaganda; not anti-fascist satire.

>>86548242
The director literally disagrees with you. How can a board that pretends to know anything about movies, make such autistic mistakes like this?

>>86547867
>harvard.edu
>aljazeera.com

I just posted a video of torture working. You would rather believe a bunch of college professors pushing an agenda than video and your own eyes. That's how brainwashed you are.

I asked you how long your ivory tower psychologists would last being tortured. You didn't answer. How long do you think you would last under torture?

>>86538930

Yes they do, peoples all over the world participate in societies because they made a collective decision to do so, not because they are coerced.

>>86539157

I said power doesn't come from violence (force) alone. Trump isn't president because he won a civil war or a coup, but because he won an election. An election a process in which the American people agree to follow the candidate who gets the most votes, even if they individually didn't vote for them, because it has been agreed that good leaders are selected most often using this system.

Now as for the "stray dog" statement, also expressed here>>86539297, a monopoly on legitimate violence by the state has long been agreed to be necessary to control certain elements such as criminals, but that doesn't mean coercion is the only source of stability. Like I said, the vast majority of people listen to cops and judges because they feel it's morally right to do so, not because they are afraid of getting shot. "Are you kidding? Nobody likes cops" you may say; well more people still respect cops than you may realize, and as for the ones that don't we can already see the effects of erosion of legitimacy. For the last 20 years law enforcement has been moving from a model based of working with the public to a model based of electronic surveillance and pure force, which has eroded public trust and has in turn caused more trouble for police. Efforts such as "community policing" have become more common in response to this trend.

>>86548281
>I posted a youtube video of what I think is "successful" torture, so that means all of your academic research and statements from literal FBI agents doesn't matter! Checkmate!
You are beyond delusional, mate.

>>86548277
What mistake? Director's opinions are important, but can also be wrong. He failed at making a satire, it's simple as that and had to screech about it so he doesn't get canned by Hollywood. Next time he should've done something else than "slightly exaggerating" awesome things about military culture.

>>86548313

Stop lying using green text.

>>86548281
>One early writer on the ineffectiveness of torture was Friedrich Spee (1591-1635). Spee was a German Jesuit priest, professor, and poet, most noted as an opponent of trials for witchcraft. Spee was the first person in his time to present strong written and spoken arguments against torture, especially with regards to its unreliability in obtaining "truth" from someone undergoing painful questioning.[1]

>Since the revelations in 2004 and 2008 that the President George W. Bush administration authorized the use of torture in interrogations, and that United States personnel have used such practices in interrogations related to the 9/11 attacks and al-Qaeda, both at black sites and at Guantánamo Bay detention camp, discussions on this topic have been heated. In commenting on the use and effectiveness of various torture methods, with a focus on waterboarding, former U.S. Director of National Intelligence, Dennis C. Blair, wrote in 2009 that "high value information came from interrogations in which these methods were used".[2]

>Alex Knapp, a staff writer at Forbes, wrote the following in 2009, "Time and time again, people with actual experience with interrogating terror suspects and actual experience and knowledge about the effectiveness of torture techniques have come out to explain that they are ineffective and that their use threatens national security more than it helps".[3] He had written an article about an FBI interrogator, who noted their practice did not include torture; FBI agents had registered strong disapproval of the US military approach.[3]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_torture_for_interrogation

>>86548342
I can't imagine being this autistic, I want to hit my head against the fucking wall talking to you retards.

>>86548342
>>86548242
>directors opinions can be wrong
>about the meaning of their own film
Neck yourself. Subjectivity was a mistake, you are the reason art is dead. Any artist who claims there work has no meaning other than what the viewer assigns to it is a hack.

>>86548282
Community policing is fucking shit. The communities targeted dislike police, making police a bigger part of their lives trying to be their "friends" backfires. and police wearing camera drastically increases compliance and reduces instances of police brutality.

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Verhoeven: Look at how horrible those good looking, strong and brave soldiers are. Don't be a hero like them. Be a socialist freak of nature like us.

Marxists always do that. Paul Verhoeven, Alan Moore, the Judge Dredd comic writers, etc, etc. They always try to turn tales of strong heroes into a "deconstruction", "parody", satire, anti-hero or whatever weasel words they like to use. But they completely fail because heroes are always necessary and loved. Strong men create and maintain civilization.

>>86548396
There's nothing subjective about the fact that Starshit Troopers is the worst satire I've ever seen because it doesn't satirize anything.

>>86548352
You are the one literally ignoring data on torture you don't like, faggot.

>>86548242
Exaggeration is also used in satire you dense troglodyte. Idiocracy is a satire not propaganda.

>>86548422
Are you conservative, by any chance?

>>86548365
>>86548281

Cont.

>FM 34-52 Intelligence Interrogation, the United States Army field manual, explains that torture "is a poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."[4] Not only is torture ineffective at gathering reliable information, but it also increases the difficulty of gathering information from a source in the future.

>Annette Sisco argues that "the [torture] techniques... are specifically designed to make captives pliable and dependent. They are designed to get prisoners to say whatever you want them to say".[5] Many torture survivors report revealing false or incomplete information since their goal was to satisfy the torturer and end the suffering, not to reveal information.[6] As an example, after the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during World War II, the Japanese military tortured a captured American P-51 fighter pilot, Marcus McDilda, in order to discover how many atomic bombs the Allies had and what the future targets were. McDilda, who knew nothing about the atomic bomb nor the Manhattan Project, "confessed" under torture that the U.S. had 100 atomic bombs and that Tokyo and Kyoto were the next targets. McDilda's false confession may have swayed the Japanese leaders' decision to surrender.[7]

>The problem of false information only applies when it is difficult to independently verify the information. An example of information that would be easy to verify but hard to obtain would be a password or encryption key, a location of a terrorist training camp, or a bomb.

>>86548430
Your data doesn't say what you think it does. It's shit repackaged, distorted and simplified into a politically motivated article blog.

I've already explained how torture works and the pros and cons of it but you are incapable on understanding.

>>86548422
>I-I'm not wrong, this movie is just too smart for me
Take your inferior opinions elsewhere. These are the people who think Shin Godzilla is anime.

>>86548438
Idiocracy is reddit and you should go there.
Exaggeration is also used in propaganda. This doesnt' mean that satire and propaganda are the same thing. But in case of Starship Troopers simply looking by its fanbase and critical reaction it's obvious Verhoven failed so fucking hard because he sculpted a propaganda piece instead of a satire. His use of exaggeration was faulty and he made the exact opposite of what he wanted to make. His yelling "b-but it was supposed to be satire, y-you're all just dumb" is meaningless.

>>86548496
See:
>>86548493
>>86548365
>>86547892
>>86547867

It doesn't work you retarded fucking child. Kill yourself now. I can't stand brainlets who ignore corroborating data. Every intelligence agency disagrees with you.

>>86548365
>wikipedia

Another bullshit source. What's next? Snopes? Has it ever occurred to you that people are filthy liars? That people lie to support their agenda?

Believe only in what your own eyes see. And answer the fucking question. How long do you feel you will resist torture?

>>86548496
"Your data doesn't say what you think it does"
>FM 34-52 Intelligence Interrogation, the United States Army field manual, explains that torture "is a poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."[4] Not only is torture ineffective at gathering reliable information, but it also increases the difficulty of gathering information from a source in the future

Will you shut the fuck up?

>>86548576
>FM 34-52 Intelligence Interrogation, the United States Army field manual

>>86548613
Are you retarded?

>>86548551
>DURR INTERROGATION DURR

not the primary use of torture when you are trying to get people to fear you retard

>doesn't even read his source

It's saying torture isn't perfect because it isn't. It's very useful when you have the right guy and the info you want is easily verifiable. It's just if you have the wrong guy he will say shit to get you to stop torturing him, and it's usually easy to see if he's lying or not.

>>86548576
This is exhausting, why don't you tell me what source you will accept then? Since you won't literally accept statements from the goddamn US Army. What then? What, is this all a complex conspiracy from Big Anti-Torture?

>>86548537
>I'm too stupid to understand satire
>it's the films fault not mine
You're right it should have been as on the nose as Death Race so that people like you could understand it.

>>86548653
Has this been bait the whole time or are you genuinely illiterate? I am baffled.