The Watchmen movie is really, really bad. Finished reading the

>>84305889
Shit movie from shit source material, what do you expect

Nah.

I think it's time to stop discussion on this one.

>>84305889
This is the genuine consensus, but everyone here is brilliantly edgy and hilariously contrarian, so they all pretend to like it, because pretending to like shit is HILARIOUS

It's the one adaptation that suffers from following the original work too closely. It tries to hit the thematic points and uses its carefully-planned imagery without working towards it. Disappointing, because it could've been a shit forgettable film or a great one, without being far enough from the other extremes.

>>84305889
>Really bad casting except for Rorschach and Nite Owl.
Nigger, there are a lot of things wrong with this movie, but The Comedian and Dr Manhattan were perfect.

>>84305889

>"""""""reading"""""""""" comics

lol this is just.... sad

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>>84305889
Final Cut is like, maybe a 4/10 film.
Director's Cut is maybe a 7/10 for such a short length, it actually does make a difference watching the Director's Cut.

>>84305935
Be honest, Alan Moore set aside a lot of his own personal faggotry for Watchmen (mostly), and it shows, and it's a worthy graphic novel.

>>84305889
>Finished reading the novel
nigger it's a comic book

and I'm glad it's not loyal, because the book is filled with mundane lame characters

>>84305889
>Fine, I get it, superhero movies need to have lots of action, but even that was disappointing.

Stopped reading right there.

>>84305889
The movie was better than the graphic novel.

Rorshach's handling of the child-rapist was much more brutal in the movie. Also, the alien squid monster thing in the novel made no sense. Framing Dr. Manhattan was a lot more interesting, as it gave him a reason to leave Earth.

The soundtrack was also perfect. That's something the comic books don't have, of course.

>>84305941
>pretending to like shit is HILARIOUS
and playing the contrarian game is legit fun

>>84306108
Watchmen is a deconstruction of capeshit, the entire point of the octopus was to be retarded.

>>84305969
Dr. Manhattan, the man who is comparable to God, whimpers like a fucking child.

>>84306080
OP here, my main problem with it was that it was just average, and they added a lot of it when they could have used that time (or the 8 minutes of sex scenes) to bolster the story.

>>84305993
Like who, and how were they mundane?

The Nite Owl / Silk Spectre scene was the best part of the movie. I still remember it to this day. I don't really know why though.

i remember watching the motion comic version to get hype for the movie, then watching the movie version and being disappointed as hell, it hit the major points well enough but left out the details that would have made it a great film

>>84305980
Technically it's Otto's wife's son.

>>84305889
Male cast was spot on. Females were shitty. Director is an untalented autist failure. That is all. It's up to HBO now.

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>>84305889
>Finished reading the novel
>the novel

>>84305889
(((Novel)))

Look im just going to throw my opinion as a comic fag, if you never read Watchmen and love the movie GO RIGHT AHEAD more power to you BUT know that you are missing a ton of shit that was left out for obvious time and budget reasons.

I really hate comic snobs and film snobs alike, you dont need to read the source before watching the movie, you are not a worst person for not knowing every plot aspect before hand.

Thats it, sounds pretty fucking obvious but someone needs to remind these children.

Oh and one other thing, in my 30 years ive never met a comic reader that actually gets angry about a movie adaptation, I know its hard to believe but most comic fags like me are regular dudes so dont fall for the "le angry autistic nerd" meme, think for your selves.

>>84307057
Oh shit I didn't know about this till you mentioned it

>>84305889

Yeah the movie is bad. Or rather hollow. But the Synderfags will defend it to the death.

>>84305889
>Really bad casting except for Rorschach and Nite Owl.
I agree that the movie is a tonally confused dumpster fire and that Snyder's grasp on the material he was adapting was tenuous at best, but you're wrong on this, Billy Crudup and Jeffrey Dean Morgan were both perfectly cast. (Jackie Earl Haley's also REALLY overrated in this, he's just okay.)

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>>84306108
>Also, the alien squid monster thing in the novel made no sense.

>>84305993
Which character was improved by the movie and how?

best part was the music

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I think it's really interesting how much thought went into each panel of the graphic novel.

>>84305889
>novel

>>84305889
You are absolutely correct

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>>84305889
>nove
*tips*
The irony is that people accuse Snyder fans of pretension.

>>84306108
>Also, the alien squid monster thing in the novel made no sense. Framing Dr. Manhattan was a lot more interesting, as it gave him a reason to leave Earth.
I bet Snyder thought this too, which shows how little he got about what was Moore trying to say with the comic. Besides, Moore is pretty obssessive with his writing, and a lot of shit is put there for a reason. If you change something as big as the ending, you have to go back and change a lot of shit. The most obvious is Bubastis, which is included in the movie for no reason at all. And the one that's more important is the reason why The Comedian loses it and says "it's all a joke". Why would he lose it when he found out Ozymandias tried to use Manhattan as a weapon, when he was already doing the dirty work for a goverment that did such a thing? What about it would be considered a joke? How would an American weapon going out of control suddenly cause world peace (even temporary) instead of heavy sanctions against America and a feel of animosity towards them? And also, the point of Ozy's plans was showing that even though he was supposedly the smartest man on Earth, he was still caught up in the superhero crap and his masterplan was something right out of a silver age comic.

>>84305950
>It's the one adaptation that suffers from following the original work too closely
lmao no, it misses the mark on most things the original tried to achieve
just because it copies few of the panels 1:1 doesn't mean it follows the original too closely, there is more to movies and comcis than pretty pictures

>>84307855
This scene was well done in the movie though.

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>Finished reading the novel
>novel

>>84307913
????
Blake loses it because Ozy has Rorschach's power at his command and is going launch a nuclear holocaust.

And Manhattan being the replacement for the squid is necessary due to the way the squid was built up in the comic (in the background).

>>84307946
Why was Dan there

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>>84305889
>people butthurt about the dark color palette and violent action scenes

Watchmen was a deconstruction of the superhero genre. The book was meant to be a look into the psyche of the kind of person who thinks they can save the world, from the all encompassing god complex of Dr. Manhattan to the petty, obsessive thug busting of Rorschach. It had a bright color palette because that was the look of the genre being deconstructed and it clashed quite nicely with the terrifying and disturbing content of the story. Following this the whole industry changed and superhero comics started to get dark and introspective.

The Watchmen movie therefore was a deconstruction of the superhero FILM genre which at the time was obsessed with dark, gritty action and leather costumes. The movie used these elements introspectively in the same way the comic did with its visual design. Lo and behold superhero movies did the opposite of the comics and become brighter and more fun following the Watchmen movie (not that I think the movie caused this ofcourse).

Watchmen was GOAT. If you don't like it then you don't understand comics and you don't understand film.

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>>84306108
>Rorshach's handling of the child-rapist was much more brutal in the movie
>missing the entire point

>Also, the alien squid monster thing in the novel made no sense.

I remembered when I saw this with my father and he was so shocked by what Rorschach was doing that he covered my eyes

>>84308007
Why not?
Also Patrick Wilson's scream is usually believable for a movie scream.

The film scene is an improvement because Moore has Laurie and Dan having sex or something while Rorschach dies (been a while since I read it).
Moore had already made his point about the flaws of his characters. At the end he just goes overboard with the bleakness.

>>84305993
millenials call comics "Graphic Novellas"

>>84308098
unusually*

>>84307855
Cause it's a huge fucking part of decepting the characters, especially Rorschach and Dr. Manhattan

>>84307913
Pretty much this. The way Snyder changed the movie don't really work considering how much he left unchanged.

He obviously didn't get the point that Watchmen was also a satire.

>>84308002
But where the fuck did he learn all that?
If Ozy doesn't need to develop alien mutant and kidnap all the scientists and artists, he doesn't need the island to hold them all in so there is no fucking way Comedian ever learns about his plans

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>>84308168
>He obviously didn't get the point that Watchmen was also a satire.
But he did.
He talks about certain choices he made like Ozy's bat-nipples being a jab at Batman & Robin.

He understood the book. You could say that he mostly ignored the point (I wouldn't say that, but you could), but you can't say that he didn't understand it.

I liked the space octopus ending better.

>>84308215
>If Ozy doesn't need to develop alien mutant and kidnap all the scientists and artists
He needs the scientists to re-create Manhattan's power, dumbass.

Everything is exactly the same, just replace genetic experiments with reverse engineering Manhattan's powers.

>>84308053
fuck this was a great post. You just explained it perfectly.

>>84308053
>Lo and behold superhero movies did the opposite of the comics and become brighter and more fun following the Watchmen movie
You must've missed the movies Snyder did himself.
And no, it doesn't work as a satire and commentary on superhero films because it's too obssessed to replicate the comic book in the most superficial way, while not really getting what the comic was really about. In order to do that, they would've had to rewrite a whole shitload of stuff in order to make it about what superhero movies are.
Also, the fact that Snyder even filmed the Black Freighter segments tells you he never really tried to make it about movies, and that he can't interpret things, but merely reproduce them.

>>84308230
>He understood the book
he clearly didn't, he only got the most obvious, on the nose parts of it
>what if.... super heroes, .. . .... wer real ...?...
>makes you think
was basically what he got
and it wasn't really a satire as it was his view on deconstructing the super hero comics so far

>>84305889

The Ultimate Cut version can at least be considered decent, like all book to film adaptations it suffers from trimming in order to keep it from being too long.

>>84306108

>The movie was better than the graphic novel.
Hurr
>Rorshach's handling of the child-rapist was much more brutal in the movie.
In the comic Rorschach chains him and sets the place on fire, telling the guy to either cut his hand with a dull blade or die, then stands outside until he could no longer hear the screams, that's much more brutal than just cleave the guy's head.
>Also, the alien squid monster thing in the novel made no sense.
While I do prefer Manhattan being framed the alien squid was basically like a 50's sci-fi horror setting, it makes sense but more people won't be able to look past it's initial goofiness.

>>84308299
>it's too obssessed to replicate the comic book in the most superficial way, while not really getting what the comic was really about.
I've still never seen an explanation of this line of logic.

>>84308299
>Also, the fact that Snyder even filmed the Black Freighter segments tells you he never really tried to make it about movies, and that he can't interpret things, but merely reproduce them.
This sentence isn't saying anything.
You don't explain your reasoning.

>>84308263
>He needs the scientists to re-create Manhattan's power
where in the movie did they say this and that he had the scientists kidnapped at all?
and why the island if he doesn't need hudnreds of kidnapped people and secrecy for the cloning experiments?

>>84308053
>defends this movie
>uses a before watchmen pic
No surprises there.

>>84308312
>he clearly didn't
wrong

>>84308230
>Ozy's bat-nipples being a jab at Batman & Robin.
But that's not the type of satire Moore did with Watchmen. That's just sophomoric parody stuff. Satire has a meaning and it's supposed to be criticism of something, and aim to edify and mend things the author sees as wrong. Taking a jab at bat-nipples is just superficial mockery.

>>84308348
>where in the movie did they say this and that he had the scientists kidnapped at all?
They show the scene of him congratulating and then killing the scientists. Like the comic, we don't know what they were working on until the end.

>and why the island if he doesn't need hudnreds of kidnapped people and secrecy for the cloning experiments?
Because he still needs absolute secrecy?
He's trying to recreate the strongest force on the planet while not letting slip that is was manufactured.
And of course because Ozy has delusions of grandeur.

>>84308002
>Blake loses it because Ozy has Rorschach's power at his command and is going launch a nuclear holocaust.
Why would he lose it, when he was part of a goverment that had Manhattan's power at its command? And why would he care about such "holocaust" if it was for the greater good, when he dedicated his life to killing and doing terrible things for a greater good?
In the comic, he loses it because of the squid's psychic element, but also because it's so fucking absurd that he can't even tell anybody what Ozy was doing because it sounds so fucking retarded.

>>84308372
Right, but the guy said that Snyder didn't understand that Watchmen was a satire.
Whether he understood it superficially or more deeply is moving the goalposts.

>>84308317
>was basically like a 50's sci-fi horror setting
No
It was a comic book setting
Super hero comics have always dealt with alien threats, supernatural beings, 'cosmic' and other dimensional shit
This was basically Moores take on the 'realistic' setting of Watchmen of how that kinda shit would go down, lot like Dr Manhattan was his take on god-like superhero like Superman would go down in his 'realistic' setting
It also had to be bigger threat than atomic bombs of cold war, people were constantly living in fear and in anxiety of that, the threat to unite world needed to be something completely alien and massive in magnitude, hence the psychic trauma the alien caused.

>>84308441
Because the government wasn't going to bomb virtually every major population center on Earth?
And because Ozy is a very different man from Manhattan.


>but also because it's so fucking absurd that he can't even tell anybody what Ozy was doing because it sounds so fucking retarded.
He could take a picture. He could tell the government some lie to get them to go up there. HE could blow the place up.
He could tell the other capes.

etc

>>84308367
He wouldn't have destroyed so many of important scenes of the comic if he had some sort of understanding what he was doing, go read some of his interviews regarding capeshit, all he talks about is the horseshit about "muh realistic superheroes" he didn't get shit

good movie
fuck off to /co/ desu

>pretending to dislike the movie or the graphic novel

>>84308479
But Manhattan says
>nothing ever ends
meaning that the Manhattan framing ending is functionally the same.

>inb4 they'd just get mad at the USA
Ozy bombed a bunch of US cities.

>>84308421
>They show the scene of him congratulating and then killing the scientists
those weren't the scientists they were his servants you silly goose, where in the fuck did the movie ever state he had kidnapped scientists and needed their skills?

>>84308345
>I've still never seen an explanation of this line of logic.
The Black Freighter is a piece of metafiction within the novel. It's a kid reading a comic that reflects the facts that we are reading in a comic along with him. The movie doesn't even attempt at using it in the same way, it's just some shit Snyder thrown in because it was in the comic.

>he takes comics seriously
you know it is literature for kids, right?

>>84308516
Eh, I disagree.
I've read the comic plenty of times and the movie is an excellent companion piece.

>>84308532
This, honestly.
/co/'s crippling autism would be better for a Snyder hate circlejerk.

>>84308543
>those weren't the scientists they were his servants you silly goose
Uh no, they were scientists. Watch it again.

>>84308552
You now realize that the cut without the Black Freighter is Zack's preferred cut because he realized what you did- that it doesn't cleanly fit.

Of course, it still comments on the film, the placement of the segments was just to difficult.

>>84308500
He tried to tell, but he sounded like a rambling lunatic because he kinda was at that point. You know, because the plans were even too absurd for The Comedian, and was also likely affected by the squid's psychic waves. In the movie, his reaction is completely out of character and makes no sense in retrospect, when the comic makes more and more sense the more you read it and think about it.

>>84308619
>when the comic makes more and more sense the more you read it and think about it.
Not really. There was no reason why he couldn't have done any of the things I listed.

>>84308605
too*

>>84308539
>meaning that the Manhattan framing ending is functionally the same.
As far as Ozy succeeding in anything I guess, but framed Manhatan doens't only fuck up ton of plot points, it completely misses the tone and deconstruction aspect of the alien squid ending.

>>84308539
>Ozy bombed a bunch of US cities.
It would still be seen as US responsibility. Just because an American weapon also fucked up America, people wouldn't go all world peace and forgive everybody, they would look for someone to blame right away, as it always happens. The alien threat was supposed to avoid this by giving everybody a foreign scapegoat which in theory would make them forget about the hatred among themselves. Of course, the plan is supposed to eventually fail, as Manhattan tells Ozy, but the movie's plan just makes Ozy look dumb because he'd be only instigating more hatred and warfare.

>>84308662
It brings the nuclear paranoia angle of the era home full circle in a way that the comic doesn't though.

It's actually better. Moore missed a trick.

>>84308701
The book's plan makes Ozy look dumb though.
He didn't make Islam do away.
He didn't make oil go away.

He should have known that people would go back to fighting in a matter of years.

>>84308605
>You now realize that the cut without the Black Freighter is Zack's preferred cut because he realized what you did- that it doesn't cleanly fit.
Yes, but he only did after he actually went and spend money and time to do it, without realizing from the get go it wouldn't work in the movie as it did in the comic because a movie is not a comic. That shows the level of understanding Snyder had of the source material, and of film itself as a narrative medium. All he knows how to do is some visual trickery and ape pre-existing works of art in the most superficial way possible.

>>84308631
He fucking tried to do all the things you listed but got killed. And he was obviously affected by the squid's psychic waves. You need to read the comic again.

>>84308738
Not at all. The Black Friegher comic works fairly well in the Ultimate Cut and of course still comments on the events of the film.
It was just hard to edit in at consistent intervals.

Of course, the black freighter segments in the book were also a momentum killing slog, commentary or no. Talk about self fellation.

>>84308631
>Not really.
Why Bubastis exists when Ozy never needed to experiment with cloning?
Why didn't Comedian just try and inform someone (Like fucking Manhattan) that someone is attempting to frame Manhattan? What drove him crazy? Why even have the island?
What is the meta element of Ozy framing Manhattan, what does it deconstruct?
How does just the plain logic of literal muber one biggest weapon of US supposedly attacking several places end a cold war, crisis that is all about tension of no one attacking anyone unite US and Soviet against ""common"" threat?

>>84308725
That's what Manhattan is trying to tell him, and what we're meant to understand from the comic. That a comic book solution doesn't apply to real people. His plan made perfect sense in a comic book logic way, which is what he was caught up into, like the rest of the characters. It's just that the rest of the world didn't work that way. This is completely absent in the movie's ending, and it's a fucking core element in the whole story.

>>84308759
Nah, it makes no sense that he went to Moloch instead of someone like Dan who he knows has the tech to get to Antarctica.

>>84308705
>It brings the nuclear paranoia angle of the era home full circle in a way that the comic doesn't though.
No it doesn't what the fuck are you talking about

>>84308781
>Of course, the black freighter segments in the book were also a momentum killing slog, commentary or no. Talk about self fellation.
Now I understand why you're on Snyder's side.

>>84308808
Moloch is shown to be more sane and reasonable than all the rest of the characters. He's the only one that grew out of the superhero/supervillain bullshit.

>>84306852

What kind of voice would you have wanted him to have? I think making him soft spoken was a good choice.

>>84308806
But that's just irrelevant to the point. That's Moore trying to have his cake and eat it too.
Either Ozy is genius or he's an idiot. He can't be a comic book genius in a comic book. That breaks the story because it's no longer a story. The meta level has taken over to the point that it wrecks the whole book, because Ozy is smart and stupid at the same time.

>>84308864
That's not relevant. If anything, Dan's desire to get back in the saddle would have work to the Comedian's advantage.

>>84308805
>Why Bubastis exists when Ozy never needed to experiment with cloning?
Who says he didn't? He's a faggot genius and wanted a flamboyant pet.
>Why didn't Comedian just try and inform someone (Like fucking Manhattan) that someone is attempting to frame Manhattan?
This applies to the squid too.
>What is the meta element of Ozy framing Manhattan, what does it deconstruct?
Nothing, it instead brings the themes of nuclear paranoia to their logical conclusion. Something that the book doesn't do.
>How does just the plain logic of literal muber one biggest weapon of US supposedly attacking several places end a cold war, crisis that is all about tension of no one attacking anyone unite US and Soviet against ""common"" threat?
Because the bombing of US cities gives us leverage.
And besides, both versions are temporary,
and according to
>>84308806
Ozy is an idiot in the book too.

>>84308901
>He can't be a comic book genius in a comic book. That breaks the story because it's no longer a story. The meta level has taken over to the point that it wrecks the whole book, because Ozy is smart and stupid at the same time.
But that's the whole fucking point! That even Ozy was caught up in the immaturity of the superhero logic, and that the world's smartest man could only come up with a childish plan because he was basically still a child, like everyone else. They're all in a state of arrested development, and that's what the book is showing us with that ending.
And that's why The Comedian goes to Moloch, because he needs someone outside all this bullshit. Somebody that at some point realized how stupid everything was and quit.

>comic books are ahistorical liberal fantasies
>so I made an edgy ahistorical liberal fantasy
Bravo Moore

Watchmen is shit. It contextualizes why comic books are utter shit by being the exact same thing it tries to not be. Morality of the ending is contrived, the whole comic especially crafted to get there so the point could be preached over the reader's head.

Snyder didn't really get it. But he didn't need to. It was a fun flick. Can't say the same about the comic.

>>84308830
Do you?
The Black Freighter is both mildly redundant, and breaks with the visual tone of the book.

>>84308098

>Also Patrick Wilson's scream is usually believable for a movie scream.

Yeah, I think so too, probably because rather than just being a NOOOOOO which always seems lame, it's more of a NYOOAAAGGGHHH, an inarticulate bellow of denial. I dunno, he just sold it well.

>>84305889
The movie was wonderfully shot, directed, and edited. I don't understand the problems people have with it.

>Completely missed the point of the novel.
How?

>>84305969
I thought the casting was perfect with the tragic exception of Silk Spectre, and arguably Ozymandias.

>>84308983
>It contextualizes why comic books are utter shit by being the exact same thing it tries to not be.
Somebody can't into satire.

>>84308978
Makes no sense. That means the whole book is just Moore edging until he ejaculates his gotcha moment all over your face.
>HA! THIS "STORY" WAS IN SERVICE OF ABSOLUTELY NOTHING INTERALLY CONSISTENT, I JUST WANTED TO GIV YOU MY OPINION ON THE STATE OF THE INDUSTRY

damn...

>>84308983
pretty much

>>84308864
No, lot of the old heroes did, Mason for example, the whole idea is that the old heroes were literally living in the Golden Era of comics and the times were lot more innocent, as time passed, comics started to get more serious in tone and thus the heroes as well started to get fucked by the time, some went insane, lot of them died etc.

>>84305889
Do people actually think Watchmen is an intelligent comic? Then have the nerve to say the movie is too dumb for them?

>>84308972
>Ozy is an idiot in the book too.
Yes, but his plan makes sense within his comic book logic. I offer an alien scapegoat and everybody will join against it. It's simplistic, but it has some internal logic for somebody like Oz.
I blow up a bunch of cities, blame it on an American weapon and it'll cause peace doesn't make any fucking sense under any perspective. Except Snyder's, I guess.

>>84309108
>blame it on an American weapon
Ozy publicly left the planet though.
And then returns by nuking every major city(?) including US cities.

>>84308887
Something deeper and more booming, more monotone. I mean, I got used to it after a while, it's not TERRIBLE. But, say, when Comedian kills the Vietnamese woman in the bar, Manhattan sounds like a little baby instead of a literal God superhero.

>>84309036
Ozymandias' casting, to me, is one of the biggest factors that proves how incompetent Snyder was in the making of the film. He's supposed to be a HERO, a loveable, charismatic person who genuinely wants to do good, but is misled by superhero logic. In the movie, literally as soon as you see him, it's "THIS IS THE BAD GUY" material. Instead of being muscular, athletic, handsome and charming, he's scrawny, douchey, and menacing.

>>84309054
>Ha-ha it's satirical my friend. That's intelligent and so self aware, you know?
No. Look at Moore as a character. He's a disgusting man and a poor faggot's Moorcock. That crazy anarchist at least has class and can see himself in the context of a larger world and how his work pushed boundaries of what's possible. You may not like him, but he's a man of integrity who knows he's in a different age, past his prime. Moore on the other hand is a self righteous prick, his every statement a defensive proclamation of superiority and his comic books incoherent spasms against the man. There's nothing to be respected with him.

>>84308972
>Who says he didn't? He's a faggot genius and wanted a flamboyant pet.
So Snyder missing the point
>This applies to the squid too.
The whole point is that the plan is so fucking nuts he will sound like a madman, the psychic part of it has fucked him up and he isn't even sure if he thinks Ozy is doing the right thing or not. It's completely fucking out of the blue, something that has never happened. A fucking frame jobs happen all the time, he was part of some according the movie, same things do not apply.
>Nothing
So snyder missing shit again
>Something that the book doesn't do.
But it does
> gives us leverage.
Yeah, that's a lot better than completely outside threat, leverage.... good shit..

>>84309134
>Manhattan sounds like a little baby instead of a literal God superhero.
I dunno, I like that interpretation. No need to talk the talk when you effortlessly walk the walk.

>>84305889

>Calls children comic book a "novel"

KEK

>>84309169
>>Who says he didn't? He's a faggot genius and wanted a flamboyant pet.
>So Snyder missing the point
No?
Squid or no squid, there is nothing about Ozy creating a pet for himself with his genius intellect that indicates any point missing.

>>84309078
>I JUST WANTED TO GIV YOU MY OPINION ON THE STATE OF THE INDUSTRY
That's how satire works. It offers a critique, and therefore the author's opinion on a subject. And it's absolutely consistent, much more so than the movie. Ozy has the intelect but he didn't mature. He still believes in superhero comic book morality and logic, and that's not how the world works. So all that intelect is of no use because he doesn't understand life. He's just a superhero comic book character and his ideas only work in superhero comic books. The whole point of the book was clashing superhero antics in a realistic setting in order to show how absurd and immature they actually are.

>>84309129
Outside threat doesn't mean just alien, it means outside of our realm of understanding, the psychic part of it, outside of our logic, there is no telling in what kind of logic the Squid would operate, if it was just doing what comes naturally or if it was straight hostile action towards earth.
And that's kinda huge fucking deal.

Manhattan frame job is retarded on so many levels.

>>84309174
Manhattan is supposed to be a being of pure logic, not emotion. Even when he does decide to save the earth, he only does so because Laurie proves him wrong in that the human race isn't a miracle in and of itself.

So him getting upset over that woman's death just doesn't make sense. He states multiple times - even after learning that his ex has cancer - that a dead and living body are the same. He's logic-based, not emotion.

>>84305941
To me it was the only worthwhile capeshit movie in recent years. Never read the comic.

>>84309129
I bet people would rationalize all that right after they got bombed instead of just blaming the country that created and used the weapon for its own interests until recently. Because we all know mobs, specially in a time of crisis, are perfectly rational.

>>84309207
But that's not interesting at all, and certainly doesn't need a whole year in twelve parts to say.
Just write a short story or an essay.
Or better yet just keep it to yourself.

Moore's V for Vendetta is much, much better.

>>84309207
Superhero comics are the problem themselves. This includes Watchmen.

>>84309151
Cool ad hominem's, pal.

>>84309203
>lets just add nonsensical shit in the movie for no reason
so...this...is....genius of...snyder...woah......,,,.,.

>>84309134
>Something deeper and more booming, more monotone.

>Something deeper and more booming, more monotone.

Respectfully disagree, I think the soft voice makes him sound more detatched, between that, the nudity and the godlike powers, you can see how one would be both creeped out and awed by him.

>>84309237
>Moore's V for Vendetta is much, much better.
Haha no. That's even worse. That comic makes no sense on any level.

>>84309217
He was once human is still in the process of "drifting out of touch" in that scene.
He doesn't stop the bullet, he doesn't really care.
He just reacts because he thinks that's how humans react.

>>84309243
And that's what Moore has realized since then, and he's said so.

>>84309271
>>84309277
Fair enough.

>>84309273
But I don't care about any goddamn point if it becomes the only reason the story exists.
The scene in the cell when Evey(sp?) reads the love letter is much more powerful than anything in Watchmen.

>>84309237
>But that's not interesting at all
Well, that's your opinion. I don't pretend everybody has to like Watchmen, but it's a very well done book that raises a lot of interest questions.

>Or better yet just keep it to yourself.
This is fucking stupid though. He had something to say, and he said it in the only and best way he knew how. That's how art works.

>>84309288
So, I think Watchment isn't anything special, Moore changed his mind and thinks so too and you have no objections to it?
I'm glad we all agree.

Worst part of the movie by far is the soundtrack.
Most clichéd hackneyed song choices just there to remind you of what year it is.
They even used the wrong version (Hendrix cover) of All Along the Watchtower because
>that's the one da boomers know best XD

Don't even care about the squid. Snyder is a hack for wasting millions on the rights to these shitty songs.

>>84309321
Watchmen isn't bad, but the point of art for me primarily is contacting new textures and sensations.
"Points" are nice, if you keep them somewhat under control and don't make the point the point.

Imagine Watchmen with shitty artwork. No one would care.

>>84309320
I only watched the movie, but le anonymous man is reprehensible on every level, she has stockholm syndrom presented as making sense somehow and government did nothing wrong (not even memeing, it kept Britain the only civilized county in the world and was democratically elected). I know the movie and dickchopper boys made big alterations, but I doubt they could've made that many fundamental changes.

>>84309364
>They even used the wrong version (Hendrix cover) of All Along the Watchtower because
>>that's the one da boomers know best XD
The Hendrix cover is better though.
And I doubt that Dylan would disagree.

And the soundtrack is great
>UNFORGETTABLEEEEE

>>84309385
>I only watched the movie
dropped
And yes, the movie is nothing like the comic. Way farther off base than the Watchmen movie.

>>84309324
Where did I say I have no objections to it? I think Watchmen is a very good comic that raises some valid points about comic books, and entertainment in the modern era in general. And it also has a lot of aesthethic and narrative stuff that is brillianty executed, exploiting the characteristics of the medium to extents that weren't seen very often before that point, and still aren't seen that often nowadays.
Moore doesn't like it because it didn't have the effect he wanted and the reception it got ended adding fuel to the fire instead of putting it off. And I understand that, but it doesn't take any value from the book itself, in my opinion.

>>84309382
But then imagine Watchmen with shitty writing.

There's art, and then there's collaborative art. Comics and movies - in order for them to be considered one of the "greats" - need to be firing on all cylinders.

>>84309382
The brilliant thing about Watchmen is that it uses all those aesthetics and sensory elements in service of the message it's trying to convey. That's what proper art does, and that's what Snyder's movie does not.

>>84309442
I guess what I am saying is that atmosphere is higher on my priority list than narrative.
And Snyder's movie has so many scenes that ooze atmosphere.
Even just little things like the top down shot of the umbrellas getting out of the car while 99 red balloons plays.

>>84309385
In the book, by the end you realize V is a piece of shit as well.
I think this is changed in the movie, because I read the comic but didn't watch the film.

>>84309129
>>84309211
Not to mention the whole Ozy-Alex The Great parallels miss their marks without the alien
Alex solved Gordian Knot by introducing out of the box solution and went to conquer half the world, Ozys 'gordian knot' was world peace, he solved it by introducing outside of the box solution (alien)

>>84309461
I don't think it does though. I think the message undermines the the whole book by amounting to nothing more than
>your hobby is lame

>>84309515
How is gaining the power of the world's first Superhuman not thinking outside the box?

>>84309487
I respect your view of and personal connection to art, but I think you're limiting your vision of it.

I'll admit that the movie is certainly shot well and is very atmospheric (mostly because it faithfully recreates many of the locations/shots from its source material). But you can't say that the writing or pacing is half as good as the comic. That's what probably divides the opinions of this movie so much. If the movie was completely original and not based on a comic, I probably would have liked it fine. But seeing the original, and what could have been accomplished in the film but fell short, this film was very disappointing in my eyes.

>>84308053
>The Watchmen movie therefore was a deconstruction of the superhero FILM genre which at the time was obsessed with dark, gritty action and leather costumes. The movie used these elements introspectively in the same way the comic did with its visual design.
Utter fucking tripe. The only one obsessing with dark gritty action and leather costumes is zak snyder, as is apparent in most of his movies.

>>84309553
Dr Manhattan is part of the 'knot' he is a tool in the conflict, a weapon of USA basically already a pawn in the issue, framing him is not outside solution and doesn't work with the parallel.

>>84309553
Because he effectively just made 15 mini-nukes and placed them across the world.

Much weaker than the literal destruction-of-worlds power that the US and USSR had in their nuclear arsenal.

>>84309598
Yu could easily say that he untangles himself when he leaves Earth.
>I am tired of Earth
>tired of being caught in the TANGLE of their lives

>>84309521
Not really though. The relationship between the kid reading the comic and the newsstand owner is more moving and well done by the end of the book than anything Snyder has ever done with his slo-mo and reference to paintings or pieces of pop music.
The book is not only about the point, but how to get there as well. Moore and Gibbons do both things right, and both have pretty much the same weight.
Snyder gets lost in his own bullshit and forgets what story is he trying to tell. This is far more obvious in BvS, where he didn't have a pre-existing book to use as a roadmap and keep him somewhat on point.

>>84309635
You're either reaching or are 13 just discovering metaphors

>>84309624
That's sort of sidestepping my point though.
You ignored the framing aspect.

>>84305889
agreed. Novel is fantastic, movie is incredibly bad.

>>84309432
You think some stuff is well executed. I find the very premise heavily flawed and therefore the whole thing pointless.

When you critique super heroes, you're critiquing an entity that discarded all old archetypes and their morality; comics are stripped to very simplistic populist good/bad morality as seen by democratic America. Watchman doesn't reintroduce any of these archetypes in an interesting way and instead of using objective morality to re-frame the experience, he subverts conventional morality itself - basically doing what the same modernity these comic books were born into started doing itself at that time.
Superhero comics lack a good, old, mythical core and aestetic. Instead they compensate by dick waving modern science and machines. Watchmen continues this tradition.

In no significant way is Watchmen any different from the cesspool that is the comic book industry. It's a liberal project deconstructing old culture and building new myths based on fashionable aestetics and subversive morality.

>>84309635
But at that point Ozy has already solved his gordian knot and executed his plan.

>>84309648
>The relationship between the kid reading the comic and the newsstand owner is more moving and well done by the end of the book than anything Snyder has ever done with his slo-mo and reference to paintings or pieces of pop music.
Disagree.
>can't I just keep pretending i'm your son?
>you ARE my son.

That hit me harder.

>>84309364
>attacking the soundtrack of all things
Probably the only part of the film that I had absolutely no issues with. The songs were all very well chosen and implemented.

>>84309663
Making a bunch of bombs to stop other bombs is not thinking outside of the box, or in this case, "slicing the knot with a sword". In fact, you could say that instead of slicing the knot, Ozy was one of the ropes, because his plan was literally just a scaled-down version of the US and the USSR's.

>>84309662
ouch

>>84309685
Because he had planned for Manhattan leaving.

>>84309364
you're a fucking retard, even bob dylan said the jimi version was better like this guy >>84309407 thought

>>84309716
Still ignoring that framing angle.

>>84309715
That narrative is that because Snyder is a hack, the song choices and placement is bad and unsubtle and Snyder is a hack.

Snyder is a hack?

>>84309759
I'm not understanding the question then, what do you mean by the framing aspect?

>>84309773
You keep ignoring that my offering for his """gordon not""" is not just nukes, but his framing of the human nuke.

>>84309798
I mean, him framing Manhattan is certainly a plan, but I wouldn't say it's outside of the box.

Manhattan is most definitely inside the box, and is in fact the tool that Ozy was using the whole time in the movie - not to mention that they used to work together. Also, Manhattan is a part of the US' nuclear arsenal, after all, so refer to my earlier statements on that

>>84309648
>This is far more obvious in BvS
BvS is easy to follow though.

>>84309726
>Because he had planned for Manhattan leaving.
Yeah in the movie, but again the entire Gordian Knot parallel does not exist in the movie because the whole idea was outside solution.

>>84309134
>In the movie, literally as soon as you see him, it's "THIS IS THE BAD GUY" material. Instead of being muscular, athletic, handsome and charming, he's scrawny, douchey, and menacing.
That's the point. We're led to think he's the villain, and then it turns out he's actually doing the right thing. It's a new twist on the old twist.

>>84309861
I'd rather not go in circles. Suffice it to say that what works for me doesn't work for you, giving me one more good movie to enjoy than you.

>>84309798
>>84309861
In other words, backstabbing a friend you used to work with and using him to help you build bombs isn't outside of the box - it's backstabbing, a literary trope as old as time.

Creating a mega-death psychic alien squid after kidnapping writers and scientists, then using it to explode NYC and convince earth that it's under attack IS outside the box.

>>84309680
Except Watchmen didn't build any new myths based on fashionable aesthetics nor did any dick waving with modern science and machines. It satirized that.
The fact that it was interpreted literally, and the industry itself used it to propagate the stuff the book crticized even more is unfortunate, and not the author's fault. There's a reason why Moore is absolutely against sequels, prequels and adaptation of Watchmen, and it's not only because DC screwed him over. He always intended it to be a one-off because he wanted to avoid for it to become what he was criticizing.

>>84309877
But again, Manhattan is his "gordon not" parallel in the film. Manhattan is no longer a part of Earth.

>>84309699
Well, seems like you like things blutntly expressed in explicit dialogue. I guess you're at home with Snyder then.

>>84309907
>IS outside the box.
Not really, seeing as Ozy was too stupid too see how that wasn't a real solution.
>inb4 that was the point
having cake and eating it too is a nono

>>84309870
I never said it was hard to follow, I said Snyder gets lost in his visuals and forgets how to tell a story.

>>84309938
>Well, seems like you like things blutntly expressed in explicit dialogue.
You're saying that human expressions of compassion are shallow.
Remember that the next time your dad says he loves you.

>>84309935
>Manhattan is his "gordon not" parallel in the film.
No he is not what the fuck are you talking about you absolute imbecile
The Gordian Knot was world peace, I think he LITERALLY states it in the comic book, probably in the movie as well
> Manhattan is his "gordon not"
that doesn't even begin to make any kinda fucking sense, google Gordian Knot and learn some history my man

>>84309910
You don't get it. When you have Obama, you don't vote for Hillary for satire. You either vote Trump or you don't vote at all. Moore is uncapable of doing anything I mentioned. Dude satire lmao is a weak excuse in this case and it doesn't hold water. It's just snarky complaining no different from liberals voting for more social benefits while protesting against the state.

>>84309878
>We're led to think he's the villain, and then it turns out he's actually doing the right thing.
>Ozymandias did nothing wrong!

>>84309978
>and forgets how to tell a story.
But it's not hard to follow?

damn...

>>84309988
goo goo ga ga

>>84309878
But that's not how the movie treats it at all. Ozy's "I feel every death..." speech is a throwaway line, both in the comic and the movie. You're not supposed to believe him, because he just killed millions of people in a very "holier than thou" way - greater good or not.

It's only in the comic where you see that he genuinely is a good guy and wanted to do the right thing, eluded to by the parallels between his dreams and the Black Freighter comic.

So the implication of Rorschach's journal being found and the plan unraveling - in the film - leaves the audience feeling angry at Ozy. Not to mention the added beat-down by Nite Owl. Ozy is never, ever sympathetic. The exact opposite is true for the comics.

>>84309986
I'm talking about artistic expressions, not real life.
Maybe you can't tell the difference.

>>84309962
>that wasn't a real solution
It really depends what you wanna believe in desu, Manhattan saying "Nothing ever ends" could mean number of things in any time frame but the Gordian Knot parallel would lead us to believe Ozymandias became highly successful after his plan
But then even Alexander the Great eventually fell off.

>>84310018
Ozy is never sympathetic in the comic either.
He's a self aggrandizing mass murderer.

>>84309962
Ozy's shortsightedness isn't linked to the knot metaphor, though. The squid ending is also implied to be a temporary solution.

>>84309997
Your analogy is shit and makes no sense. Do you even know how parodic satire works? It's not having a cake and eating it too, it's criticizing a genre's conventions by exaggerating them and pointing their flaws. That's exactly what Watchmen does.

>>84310028
But art reflects life.
So that scene in the film is somehow shallow/whatever negative connotation Snyder carries for you, but a moment like that in real life wouldn't be?

damn...

>>84310043
That's not true, because he's initially framed as just another one of the heroes. Maybe he's not sympathetic in your eyes, but he's certainly not suspicious until the very last chapters.

In the movie, it's immediately obvious.

>>84310013
Who the fuck is saying it's hard to follow? I'm saying it's not well done.

>>84310097
Whoops, I meant to say that he is never sympathetic after we know his plan.

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>>84306852
I SAID

>>84310126
Do you like the cut after the white, or do you like the version where the studio is empty after the white fades?

>>84310058
>Ozy's shortsightedness isn't linked to the knot metaphor, though
It is sorta, and it's parallel to Alex the Great, not so much metaphor of anything. When Alexander the Great solved the knot, he went to conquer most of the known world, but even he eventually lost when he ventured to India.

>>84310079
>That's exactly what Watchmen does
No it isn't. Watchman plays it straight, BUT EDGIER. Then it pulls out a nervous smirk twice to say b-but it's satire. It's having its cake and eating it too.

Also, you don't change a medium by doing a satire. You change it by doing an actual good new work that breaks out of the mold, which Watchmen didn't do.

Also Watchmen didn't exaggerate. It downplayed except for the ending.

>>84310121
black dick

>>84310087
You're really dumb, aren't you?
Saying "I love you" to a girl might be extremely emotional and strong in real life, but writing a poem that just says "I love you" is just shitty art. Art, as you said, is a reflection, not a mere reproduction.

>>84310124
That's a matter of personal opinion I guess. But idk how you think he's more sympathetic in the film than the comic (if that is what you're saying) - film Ozy is douche-fuck stalker boy, comic Ozy is huggable athletic man.

Regardless of that, though, whether you find him sympathetic in either, the comic certainly wants you to be at least a little understanding of his view and reasoning. He genuinely regrets the fact that he had to kill tons of people, and fears that his soul and morals will forever be damned.

Movie Ozy, you don't think is regretful at all.

>>84310195
????
I'm not talking about a poem.
If you had a well done scene of a girl and a boy where the boy said "I love you", it would resonate.
You wouldn't even have to know them. It could be the opening scene of a film.

>>84305889
Dude it's Hack Snyder. Of course it's terrible. But it's pretty so retards on here will defend it.

>>84310238
see this pic
>>84307894

Who do I believe?

>>84310187
You're so fucking wrong about everything. Watchmen is text book satire. And it didn't exaggerate, really? Look at all the fucking main characters, for fuck's sake. He makes them clash with a more realistic setting in order to make the craziness and silliness of their superheroic antics more obvious.

>>84310124
>>84310215
And again, Nite Owl, the designated "good guy" beating on Ozy, the designated "bad guy", leads the audience to believe that Ozy is indeed, undeniably the bad guy. In the comic, Owl takes Ozy's side.

>>84310280
>In the comic, Owl takes Ozy's side.
Which is terrible and makes Dan feel like a sociopath.
His character up to that point didn't seem that dispassionate.

>>84310303
I mean he's pissed about the deaths, but he logically concludes that there's nothing to be done about it now, and that telling people would make all of those deaths entirely pointless. I didn't take it as sociopathic, I took it as a quiet defeat from an already very quiet, passive man.

>>84310340
Doesn't he have sex with Laurie like right after the big reveal?

>>84310271
They're more grounded than most comic book characters Watchmen supposedly critiques.
More realistic setting is part of the same comic book zeitgeist that is trying for decades now to be more realistic in order to cover for its shit narrative aestetics and beta faggot ego of comic book fans.

Everything you said is inherently part of the problem. Not what you're trying to conclude. The very premise from which you're trying to explain to me why it's good. Not what you're trying to rationalize from it.

>>84310369
Yeah, ehhh I guess that's a bit iffy. I'll agree that that felt a bit awkward in the context of the immediate events, but it makes sense in the overarching story and connection between Laurie and Dan. Especially since it fulfills Dan's earlier dream of the two of them "unzipping" each other into their costumes and kissing.

>>84310414
Yeah, but it left a bad taste in my mouth as far as Dan's character goes.
>inb4 that was the point

>>84310432
I don't think that was the point, but I can see your gripes with it. Maybe the point was that it was kind of selfish, that they were both just relieved to be done of the whole thing and the tensions of nuclear war completely lifted off their shoulders, knowing there was nothing they could have done about it. Think about all the fucking after WW2.

I won't try to say you're wrong for feeling that way, though, it's understandable - just not how I perceived it.

>>84310473
Call me a shallow hollywood babby, but I think after Dan and Roshach coming to their mutual understanding and Rorschach even opening up a tiny bit to Dan, I prefer Dan's movie ending.

>>84310520
I'd say the movie achieves a more emotional, contextually-logical ending for Dan, while the comic achieves an ending for him more thematically in-line with his arc and the story as a whole.

>>84310555
I was just so disappointed in Dan in the book.

>>84310570
I mean to be fair, once Laurie moves in with him, it is indicated that he's not as mentally-stable or strong-willed as he was initially framed to be. This is especially indicated by the (brilliant) dream sequence of him desperately running toward his former lover (that old bird villain). It's also implied that the Nite Owl persona and costume almost haunts him, like a curse, with those goggles always watching him - not just in a "ooh, I wanna be a hero again!" (though that's definitely part of it), but in a "I'm controlling you" kind of way. He's shown to be extremely obsessive.

>>84310640
Yeah but I think Moore projected his autism a little too hard on Dan in the finale.
I mean the fucker is having sex right after Rorschach got roasted.

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best capeshit intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h24D87SqaLQ

best opening capeshit scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPfc4LDZHbw

And I thought both MoS and BvS were shit and generally hate all capeshit. however this was actually a great movie. OP is a faggot.

>>84305976
>Corto Maltese
>Blueberry
>Thorgal
>sad
Wew, lad!

>>84310674
le snyder can do le scene but le narrative le eludes him

>saved you the trouble

>>84310670
Dan doesn't know about rorschach's death while he's getting the poon tho

>>84310706
I just mean tonally. The reader knows it.
Seemed kind of cold to me.

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>>84310698
>ironically using the word le
>not doing how to use greentexts
hello plebbit.

>>84305889
>DUDE IT MISSED THE POINT LMAO
Retards always say this about Watchmen but never elaborating why

>>84311544
If you look through any of the 215 replies you may find that you, in fact, are the retard if you assume that there's no defense for that way of thinking.

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>>84305889
>finished reading the novel
>novel

its a comic book and the movie is a decent adaptation of it.
>bbbbbut Snyder missed the point
sure he did alan...sure he did.

>>84308312
>he didn't understand the book
12 year olds who read the book understand it. Literally everyone understands it. MooreFags are pathetic

>>84311544
they are just huge Squid fans really. Also the argument is silly even if it was true. The point of the comic doesnt need to be the same as the point of the movie. (seeing as the comic very specifically aimed at comic book medium it would make very little sense made into a movie)

>>84311916
So if he understood it, why did he spend so much time trying to make heroes cool instead of antisocial losers Moore depicted them as?

>>84312127

They're not all antisocial losers though. Some are and some aren't. One of points of the graphic novel was to characterise super heroes as real humans. How'd the movie get that wrong?

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>>84305941
>genuine consensus

>>84305950
It completely fucking follows the wrong shit. Nobody gave a fuck about the alley fight, nobody gave a fuck about the prison fight. Showing Nite Owl snapping arms was retarded, Bubastis was retarded if they're not going to include the squid, and the fire rescue scene was so poorly handled I almost laughed in the theater.

>>84312160
Nite Owl and SS say hi.

I hate comic books, but the source material is pretty fantastic. I thought it was surprising to learn that fan favorite Rorschach was a white supremacist. The only good parts of the movie is the casting. Rorschach and The Comedian have the perfect actors. Everything else is ruined by Zack Snyder's stupidity. He's such a fucking moron.

>>84305935
Herro bait-san

>>84305976
There are not only american comics laddie.
Italians and Franco-belgians write pretty cool shit, and there are gems in the sea of weebshit, too (especially from the 70s and 80s).

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>>84309036
The actor himself could have been fine, but Ozymandias should have been portrayed as a hero, not an obvious villain. Also, and this is the most offended I've ever been by a director, he is wearing the goofy Batman costume from Batman and Robin. Ozymandias literally has the Bat nipples as a fucking joke. There was a point to his original costume, and he turned it into a reference to amuse people. Zack Snyder thought "he's the villain, so who cares if I make him into a joke"

>>84312127
Meh they didn't seem all that anti social in comics
Mostly seemed like regular people with problems (except comedian and Rorschach)
You probably didn't really understand the book to be honest and only """like"""" it because you're embarrassed by comics

>>84305976

Watchmen basically takes the piss out of superhero comics tho