Why didn't they just give Her the ring?

for the reasons she said right there in that scene

Give me a quick rundown on Elrond's tax policy

>>84082307
In place of the Dark Lord, you would have a Queen, not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Dawn. Treacherous as the Sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth...all would love her and despair!

>>84082382
>>84082491
>I'm going to turn into an amazon devil goddess and rape the world
Yeah what's the downside again?

>>84082307
>Frodo offers her the ring
>She thinks about it for a bit
>Decides she doesn't want it

That's why

>>84082307
She was already OP. Easily the most powerful Elf still in Middle Earth.

>>84082307
She'd turn into a dominating ultra-druid. She would see to every living creature shitting its collective pants in terrific awe of her presence. She'd end up enslaving middle earth just as horrifically as Sauron.

>>84082517
Tolkien did not expect internet autists to actually want to get raped by Ring-Galadriel.

IMO give the ring to the Balrog, it's a servant of Morgoth, not Sauron and it has no idea what to do with the ring and still wants to get the damn Hobbits off its lawn and go back to sleep.

>>84082764
That's a terrible idea. The balrog would just become Sauron 2.0. I mean Sauron was a servant of Morgoth too

>>84082844
Nope, the Balrog has 0 ring lore, he doesnt know shit about it.

Lesser beings are driven by the ring to bring it to Sauron but the Balrog is a creature just like Sauron.

Unlike Gandalf and Galadriel the Balrog has no desire but to sleep until his boss returns.

>>84082844
The ring is a trap meant to entice the bearer. It will lead to anyone but sauron's destruction. And also Sauroman would be the best candidate for Sauron's successor.

>>84082764
The Balrog would either end up losing the ring or Sauron would come and take it.

That's if it has no effect on him ... I don't know the answer to that.

>>84082764
Balrogs are Maiar so if Gandalf is at risk for corruption then they would be too. Demigod status doesn't save you.

>the most powerful ring yadda yadda
>it makes you invisible while giving you a massive headache
>that's it

what the fuck is this shit

>>84083317
The Balrog already has a master, a few steps higher up than Sauron, his corruption predates the singing of the music of creation.

>>84083284
>I have come to claim my ring flame of Udun!
>*SPLAT*

LMAO'd at this scene, it looked so fucking stupid.

>>84082764
>>84083094
>>84083138
>>84083284

The Balrog is a Maia - just like Sauron, Gandalf and Saruman. It's not just some stupid brute that's not going to see the ring's inherent power or just carry the ring around without using it, saving it for Melkor on the off chance he comes back. And it's not going to go and sheepishly deliver it to Sauron either.

The Balrog is easily powerful enough to use the ring to rise above Sauron's weakened form and corrupt / destroy all of Middle Earth on its own, starting with a powerful Orc army coming from the Misty Mountains.

>>84083407
It gives you powers according to your abilities and capabilities.

A sufficiently powerful use of the ring wouldn't be made invisible if they didn't want to be

>>84083435
Balrog are literally the same category of being as Sauron, just less powerful
And they have the same master

seriously this is not hard

>>84083645
>It's not just some stupid brute

That's precisely what it is, it's a tool for Melkor to destroy the world, when Melkor ruled the Balrogs did not get their own kingdoms or fiefdoms like Sauron to play with because they care not about domination, only destruction.

>>84083650
>A sufficiently powerful use of the ring
user*

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Gentlemen, if I may.

This argument about Balrogs won't go anywhere.

Silmarillion-era Balrogs (thousands of them used as footsoldiers in First Age armies fighting elves) were portrayed differently to the LOTR Balrog who comes across as more formidable

>>84083934
Everything was stronger in the First Age. The Moria Balrog would have just been another normal member of Morgoth's army back then

>>84082662
I would give anything to give Lady Galadriel the one ring and have her dominate me forever

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What the fuck was this guy's problem?

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Why not just give Frodo the ring?

>>84084048
Biggest shitlord ever.

>>84082307
Because she would have turned all negative like.

>>84084048
>be Feanor
>make the most beautiful gems ever in all of existence
>so beautiful Satan himself comes to steal them
>get mad, swear the most terrible oath that will ever be sworn in the history of the world
>former allies and friends are like "cool down bro, you're not thinking straight"
>kill them and steal their boats
>cross the ocean, get to the other side and burn the boats because this train has no brakes
>takes my entire people on a rampage all the way to the gates of Angband
>personally fight my way so deep into the enemy ranks I end up soloing nine Balrogs at once
>finally get struck down by Gothmog, lord of Balrogs
>my (many) children carry my dying body from the battlefield
>make them swear they nor their children nor their children's children will rest until we get those fucking gems
>set fire and blow away as ashes on the breeze as I die because of how FUCKING ANGRY I AM

>>84084048
He didnt get to fugg Galadriel.

>>84083996
They weren't Maiar when Tolkien was writing the First Age stuff. I'll copy paste some wiki for you:

>Tolkien's conception of Balrogs changed over time. In all his early writing, they are numerous. A host of a thousand of them is mentioned in the Quenta Silmarillion,[11] while at the storming of Gondolin Balrogs in the hundreds ride on the backs of the Dragons.[12] They are roughly of twice[13] human size,[14] and were occasionally killed in battle by Elves and Men.[15] They were fierce demons, associated with fire, armed with fiery whips of many thongs and claws like steel, and Morgoth delighted in using them to torture his captives.[16] They were loyal to Morgoth, and once came out of hiding to save him from capture.

>In the published version of The Lord of the Rings, however, Balrogs became altogether more sinister and more powerful. Christopher Tolkien notes the difference, saying that in earlier versions they were "less terrible and certainly more destructible". He quotes a very late margin note[17] that was not incorporated into the text saying "at most seven" ever existed;[18] though in the Annals of Aman, written as late as 1958, after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, Melkor still commands "a host of Balrogs".[19] In later writings they ceased to be creatures, but are instead Maiar, lesser Ainur like Gandalf or Sauron, spirits of fire whom Melkor had corrupted before the creation of the World.[3] Power of the order of Gandalf's was necessary to destroy them,[20] and as Maiar, only their physical forms could be destroyed.

>>84084139
Why would he have? She was his niece or some shit.

>>84084112

You forgot
>insult Satan so hard the insult becomes his new name for eternity

>>84084217
Kind of like Satan, right?

>>84083813
Nowhere has it ever been said that Balrogs aren't intelligent. None of the Maia are stupid. It's true that Balrogs are not naturally ambitious on their own, and have been in hiding since the loss of their master Morgoth, but the Ring itself would give them that drive and aspiration for power just like it would for Gandalf or Galadriel (even though she is just an elf and is weaker than any Maia). The ring itself would be the thing that makes the Balrog into a leader on its own

>>84084178
He still wanted to.

>>84082559
That is because bitches don't know what they want.
"If I had the ring I would be a mighty queen!"
"Here take it."
"Nevermind I changed my mind. Keep the ring."

>>84084242
Gonna need a citation on that. From what I gather from the Silmarillion, Feanor didn't give a fuck about his brothers or their kids.

>>84084139
so how hard did Feanor rage in the halls when Galadriel finally gave some of her hair to a stinkin' dwarf?

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>>84082307
>Galadriel will never go full dark mode and force you to eat her elven asshole while she squeezes your balls

>>84082844
sauron was initially a servant of aule, so not quite the same.

>>84083645

Wait, Balrogs are actually Maia?...I guess that makes sense, since it seemed to be almost equal with Gandalf...mind blown.

>>84084451
I always liked that little bit of info. Aule being the Artificer of the Valar and Sauron being one of his Maiar before Melkor seduced him away basically meant that after Melkor's imprisonment, Sauron concocting the rings of power was the existential crisis version of him coming home to momma when it came to jobs.

>>84084510
the Balrog WAS equal to Gandalf the Grey

remember that Gandalf died in the process of killing the Balrog and had to be revived as Gandalf the White

>>84082307

she was already crazy powerful without it

>>84084539
yeah, i tend to enjoy tidbits like this the most. one of my favorites is how after aule got to keep the dwarves yavanna got her own ent children in return.

>>84084510
The Balrog basically cashed out his magical bank account for more spending money

Gandalf still had funds in the bank and was earning interest on it to come back.

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>>84082307

It would have corrupted her into a feminist.

>>84082764
That proposal is no different than the suggestions given during the Council of Elrond to just hide it indefinitely by throwing it into the Sea or giving it to Bombadil. Proposals like that were all rejected because it is pointed out that Sauron will win any war of attrition even without the Ring.

They have to destroy the Ring. Keeping it from Sauron isn't enough because even without it he wins.

>>84084602
Galadriel is not that powerful. She's still just an elf, albeit an extremely wise and intelligent one. She's also a master telepath / mind reader and a brilliant strategist, and is probably very good at fighting (like all powerful elves). But that's all.

>>84084074
>giving a hobit the ring
>giving a four foot human the ring

>>84084360
Now how is she gonna reach my balls while I'm eating her asshole use your brain anon

What is the best story in the Silmarillion?
I'd go with The Children of Húrin.

>>84085040
The Ring is really fucking powerful, retard. She could probably do that in a number of different ways.

Why didn't they just give the ring to Denethor?

WHY not give the ring to the elves, Arwen, to take it to the Undying lands?

>>84083407
Why does the ring make you invisible anyway?

Just seemed like plot armour to me

>>84085179
This is actually a good point. The Valar could certainly destroy it.

Supposedly they don't want to get involved in mortal affairs anymore but bringing a piece of Sauron back might be a gray area.

>Assemble the accountants at Dunharrow, as many actuaries as can be found, you have two days
>On the third, we file our taxes

Really moving scene.

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If you were an elf would you rather live under Elrond or Galadriel?

>>84085003
Dude, she's a First Age Elf, she's stupidly powerful. She could have bent Elrond over a table and fucked him with a futa dick at will. The only thing in Middle Earth she was scared of was Sauron himself because he outclassed her in power. She wasn't one of the chump Elves like Legolas or his dad, she was on a level an order above them, being of Valinor.

Why didn't they just give the ring to Sauron?

Also, do they ever explain what happens when the ring is destroyed? Does middle earth become a utopia? What happens to the Orcs and the other evil creatures in Sauron's army?

>>84084217
Actually wasn't that Fingolfin?

>>84082307
she's obviously evil

>>84085377
Galadriel
She seems like she gives it to anyone.

>Why didn't they just give X the Ring?

Because literally no one can use it but Sauron. You can put it on, disappear into the spirit realm or whatever, but as to actually using the Ring for it's intended purpose (dominate all Middle Earth) it'll tell you to fuck off.

Sauron designed it solely for his own use. If anyone of power actually got thier hands on it, the Ring would just drive them insane a la Gollum and wait until one of Sauron's croonies came by to fetch it

>>84085451
Aragorn is crowned the King of Men. The evil creatures scatter as far as they can get while being hunted down and purged.
>>84085476
No, Feanor coined the Morgoth name after the Silmarils got jacked. Fingolfin was who dueled Melkor and stabbed him 7 times and chopped off his foot before being crushed.

>>84085377
Galadriel. I want her to make me her submissive bitch slave.

>>84085377
elrond, i get to see subhumanoids from other races come and dance for my pleasure. also maybe rape arwen if i'm bored.

>>84085338
Why didn't the Valar just send a smaller army to fuck Sauron up?

>>84085233

>hobbits are small and sneaky creatures according to lore
>Frodo and Bilbo both had little to no combat experience
>ring enhances the hobbits' ability to be hidden by turning them invisible

It would be interesting to see what the ring would be like in the hands of someone other than a hobbit.

>>84085377
Elrond. Galadriel's home is to much hippy for me.

>>84085581
TIME STANDS STILL AT THE IRON HILL

is the Silmarillion worth reading?

Why didn't they give the ring to Sam, the only being in history that was able to withstand the power of the ring and thus the most powerful being in Middle-earth?

>>84085652
yes, if you read the lotr and liked it. or if you're interested in world-building and mythology in general. or if you want to be fascinated by how much one man can come up with in terms of content, from fictional languages to religion to history to culture.

>>84085704
>>84085652
Just don't read the making of the world. Literally twenty pages of singing.
>>84085125
Yeah, Turin was the best.

>>84085040

If she is sitting on your face reverse cowgirl style, she can do it easily.

>>84085652
It's good if you like Tolkien's writing style and want some backstory on everything. It's essentially Book of Genesis for Middle Earth

>>84085696
>possessed the ring for like, a day, tops
>WOW HE MUST BE INCORRUPTIBLE

Ring simply didnt have the time to start pulling Sam down. Though iirc the Ring tried tempting Sam with a vision of him becoming Lord of Plants or something since he loved gardening so much, but Sam just scoffed at the offer

What is the Ring's size? Does it scale to it's owner, or what?

>>84085756
twenty pages takes what, fifteen, twenty minutes tops to read? let the dude read the whole thing.

>>84085605
They refuse to enter Middle Earth and directly affect the fate of mortals there. Morgoth was apparently the only threat great enough to warrant interference and they probably won't again until the end of the world.

Like the anon said though, I don't see any reason why some elf can't just bring the Ring back to Valinor. It could be viewed as just reigning in a rogue Maia without directly breaking their non-interference policy.

>>84085828
Allegedly. Yes


I assume Sauron's finger is twice the size of Frodos

>>84082307
>Why didn't they just give Her the ring?
She didn't want it.

Did the one ring turn everyone invisible? I've heard that it only turns Hobbits invis because they're small and unnoticed - but also it's less like they're invisible and more like they're transfered into the spirit realm? What would happen if a dwarf wore it?

>>84085873
>Allegedly
Its shown in the text of the novels, and on screen that it changes size.

>>84085828
it scales.

>>84085807
one day at the height of sauron's post-revival power very near sauron himself. seeing as how it instantly warped the likes of galadriel and corrupted those like boromir merely by being around them it's still no small feat. i agree with you though, this does not necessarily mean sam is incorruptible and frodo was the bearer.

>>84085807
>possessed the ring for like, a day, tops
So? More powerful beings like Gandalf and Galadriel were afraid to even touch it, because they thought it would tempt them immediately. Time has nothing to do with it.

>>84085003
Tolkien considered her one of the most powerful elves to have ever lived, for some reason.

>>84085949
>Did the one ring turn everyone invisible?
no depending on your race it has different effects but a powerful enough user could become invisible if they wanted to in addition to whatever other powers it gave them.

>>84085828
The film showed it shrinking down right after Isilldur cut it from Sauron's hand

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>>84085857
>I don't see any reason why some elf can't just bring the Ring back to Valinor. It could be viewed as just reigning in a rogue Maia without directly breaking their non-interference policy.

Sounds like a bad idea to me. What if the Valar decide it's not their problem? What if they say "this is what we sent the 5 maiar (wizards) over to Middle-Earth to resolve"? What if they point out that they don't want to damage the existing elven kingdoms in Middle-Earth (which destroying the ring would do)?

Because if they DON'T destroy the ring, then Middle-Earth is doomed because Sauron is winning without the ring. He doesn't need it to win, he's winning the war slowly anyway. The good guys need to destroy the ring to survive. The Valar have ALREADY helped them by sending the wizards.

>>84085807
That one day was enough to get him a pass to the Undying Lands to be with his boyfriend.

>>84085807
Also, didn't Bilbo give the ring up freely? After possessing it for several decades? Maybe they should have just Bilbo keep the ring.

>>84085980
Age->Wisdom~>Power
And she's a ring-bearer.
That covers the extent of her power.

I've noticed that LotR threads are some of the best threads on /tv/ i wonder why.

>>84086060
We all know she's powerful during the 3rd age, but he considered her Feanor level from the start. And Feanor level seems too much for her really.

>>84086098

because of the lore. you're really getting a microcosm of /lit/

>>84085949
Not everyone turns invisible, we see that when Sauron and Isildur wear it. In the books it says it magnifies the wearer's power. So the Hobbits are really good at sneaking and going unnoticed, the ring just makes it so powerful they are literally invisible. If someone like Aragorn were to wear it I bet he would be nigh unkillable in combat. Gandalf's magic would probably be fucking wacky.

>>84086144
>you're really getting a microcosm of /lit/
Is he really? I don't seen anyone telling him to seize the means of production.

>>84085956
If the Ring's given power scales with it's current owner, then Sam and hobbits in general probably are such low-tier it takes the Ring a very long time to get to them, or at the very least it's hold on their minds is lessened.

Like >>84086057 said, it's possible to not only own the Ring for years but to also give it up freely, if albeit begrudgingly.

>>84086134
Everyone from Valinor that made the crossing was Feanor-level powerful. That nigga that kamikaze'd Gothmog in the fountain was one of the scrubs that made the crossing.

So did the ring turn everyone invisible? Kind of a shitty super power.

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Why not give the ring... to itself?

It would try to cause its owners' downfall, but IT is its own owner, and its primary mission is to return to Sauron. So it would cause its own downfall, meaning it would not return to Sauron. Problem permanently solved.

QED. Quid pro quo. The End. Amen.

I'm waiting, lorefags. Your game is finally up.

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>>84086164
>I don't seen anyone telling him to seize the means of production.
kek

>>84086153
The ring did turn Isildur invisible.

>>84086009
>>84086153
Do they still see the spirit realm around them like how Frodo does, though?

>>84082764
>Tolkien did not expect internet autists to actually want to get raped by Ring-Galadriel.

Kek

>>84086213
>Why not give the ring... to itself?
because the ring is sauron and sauron is the ring

>>84084074
you know what? that's not a bad idea.
they could probably write books or make movies about this

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What if Galadriel wore it has a toe ring, haha. I bet it'd smell, haha.

Why didn't the eagles just fly Frodo to Mount Doom?

>>84086311
What if you gave the ring to an Ent?

>>84086192
can't really say for sure and anyone telling you different is just guessing

6 characters other than sauron that have worn the ring. bilbo, frodo, sam (he wears it in the books to save frodo after the spider/orc kidnapping part), gollum, tom bombadil, and isildor (he tries to put it on when the orcs attack him to go invisible and escape).

everyone other than tom bombadil goes invisible and enter the wraith world. i dont know where this "the hobbits are sneaky and the ring amplifies their sneaky powers" comes from, i think it's just a meme that people just believe at this point because it's repeated so often.

>>84086311
Clearly not, or Sauron would just know where the ring is at all times because it's him. The ring is clearly its own distinct entity, even if it's just a piece of Sauron that he carved out of himself.

Therefore, giving the ring to itself defeats the ring.

I fucking win.

>>84086213
The ring waits to be found again

so the rings given to men turned them into the ring wraiths what did the rings given to the elves and dwarfs do?

>>84085003
>Galadriel is not that powerful.
Nigga, the appendix clearly states that Galadriel and the elves BTFO an orc army 3 times effortlessly, and that the only way Lórien falls if Sauron himself goes there.

>>84086441
the elves took their rings off once sauron put his on. the dwarves become ultra jews and kept digging and ignored everything else

>>84086153
Nah, combat powers would go to say, a particularly uppity orc claiming it
Aragorn's ring boost would be command related, and would be quite sizeable at that given Sauron actually feared him claiming it.
I could easily see him, in time, with the ring, being able to command any human regardless of their former affiliation, turning the Haradrim against Sauron, making men perform his every command without question or hesitation etc. and in general it would allow him to assemble an army that could truly threaten the combined might of Mordor

And that's also how it would corrupt him, following a victory over Sauron, the ring would encourage him to extend his dominion ever further, at the start for the good of the people, after all do not all humans wish peace?
And in pursuit of that peace he'd go ever further, proactively eliminating threats, restricting the freedom of man for their own good, turning on the dwarves and elves before they could turn on man until his reign is tyranny beyond the imagination of any other than Sauron.

So did anyone use the ring other than to turn invisible?

>>84086439
It's already found. Found by itself, which now owns it.

Game. Set. Match.

>>84086057
>>84086167
bilbo gave it up after a very generous dose of encouragement from gandalf, bordering aggressive.

>>84086167
also, smeagol was more or less a hobbit and instantly killed for it. the rings power and it's effect on the mind is dependent on a multitude of factors.

>>84086441
Well the aim was to do the same to all 3 races. But the elves realized some bullshit was afoot and took their rings off.
The Dwarves became maximum Jews instead of slaves.

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>>84086393
>Why didn't the eagles just fly Frodo to Mount Doom?

I know you're meme-ing but the obvious answer is that the soldiers guarding Mordor would see the eagles coming from miles away, then they'd send up something like winged Nazgul to intercept the eagle

>>84086516
we've already been over this ten thousand times. the fellbeasts get destroyed by the eagles in the last battle.

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>>84086358
haha

>>84086540
But Sauron Tower Eye wasn't eye lazering at them. If he was lazering at them they would have been ded.

>>84086358

Why do deviant footfags ruin everything

>>84086482
>the dwarves become ultra jews and kept digging and ignored everything else
>>84086509
>The Dwarves became maximum Jews instead of slaves
is that why they never show up to help men and elves?

>>84086509
>tfw you will never be gifted a piece of jewelry that makes you a prodigious craftsman and merchant
sad

>>84086501
no. tom bombadil puts the ring on, nothing happens, and then laughs like a faggot, but that's it. everyone else who puts the ring on goes invisible.

>>84086358
disgusting footfag

>>84085949
But the Ring turned Isilder invisible, that "only hobbits become invisible" was bullshit.

>>84086516
Okay, but why didn't they just bring Mount Doom to Frodo?

>>84086574
Hey man, don't be Anti-Dwarf like that. They did show up for the Battle of Fi----oh right, there was gold in the Lonely Mountain....fuck.

>>84082307
This scene looked so shitty.

>>84086540
The Eagles are not to be commanded by anyone. They literally only ever help because they feel like it. They are extensions of manwe, who is a valar. He doesn't particularly care about defeating Sauron because he's a little bitch. If you consider the timescale valar live on, Illuvatar was going to remake the world like next week anyways.

Basically, this is like asking why america doesn't destroy Isis. Because they don't want to and it is personally risky.

>>84086574
dwarves were always somewhat distant from the other races, being the children of aule and not illuvatar. they also had a falling out with elves after some dispute over a set of jewelry, the main piece being a necklace iirc. there elves were, unless i'm mistaken, legolas's kin, led by his father or grandfather.

>>84086653
it's an incredibly bad analogy, but the rest of the post checks out.

>>84086671
>dwarves were always somewhat distant from the other races
yeah to me they felt like something that Tolkien just threw into the books

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>>84086540
>the fellbeasts get destroyed by the eagles in the last battle.

Have you actually read it though? Because that's not true. At the moment Frodo puts the ring on and declares himself openly, several of the winged beasts immediately leave the battle (they hadn't been killed by eagles) and fly as fast as they can towards the volcano and Frodo. All the eagles actually do is distract the Nazgul, helping the armies below, and then they go in and rescue Frodo and Sam after the ring is destroyed.

Is that all you've got?

None of this reasoning >>84086653 is even necessary. Common sense and actually reading the book is all you need to understand it.

>>84086653
>...Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy...
The universe will last long enough for Manwe and his lazy god friends to get fed up with immortality and envy mortals.

>>84086730
Gandalf uses this exact reasoning explicitly in the hobbit.. pretty sure.

If Galadriel put on the ring would she turn invisible?

>>84086784
She likely already has the power to enter a spirit form, she's the oldest elf in middle Earth.

>>84084112
I had no idea that Satan existed in Middle-earth. I've read the LOTR and The Hobbit. Am I retarded or is it in The Silmarillion, which I haven't gotten to yet?

I remember the name Morgoth though, but it's been a few years so don't remember where I saw it.

>>84086866
No wonder she didn't want the ring

>>84086870
>Am I retarded or is it in The Silmarillion
its in the Silmarillion but i think the trilogy mentions him a few times

>>84086866
the elves already live half in and half out of the wraith world

>>84086516
Why couldn't Frodo give the ring to the eagle to make it invisible. Seems risky but the odds would have been a lot better than how shit actually went down. I'm still amazed that they actually destroyed the thing desu. Personally I'd have worn the ring around my cock and swung it a few times around Lady Galadriel. Can you even imagine what might transpire.

Could it be worn on your dick? Would it give you an all powerful dick or just turn it invisible?

>>84086866
>who is Cirdan

>>84086927
the ring can't shrink down small enough to fit on yours

>>84086870
>I remember the name Morgoth though
Melkior, he's the real big bad. Sauron is a little bitch.

>>84086870
to be fair he no longer exists in middle earth
his limbs were cut off and he was imprisoned beyond space and time destined to only escape during the last battle that ends the world

>>84086923
Invisible means spirit form. The Eagles are already spirits in the form of Eagles. They would glow like a lighthouse to ringwraiths and saurons eye.

>>84086927

Is it still rape if nobody sees the dick go in?

>>84086927
Well, it couldn't be worn on your dick, nothing has the ability to shrink that small.

>>84086918
Ah okay. Been about six years. Due for a reread soon. Thanks.
>>84086958
That's a name I don't remember at all.

>>84084360
>>84085040
and ultimately >>84085774

I talk to >>84085040
My boy.. this was simple... what do you think all that porn in this site is about? To masturbate?

>>84086870
Read the part when Aragorn tells the hobbits about Beren and Luthien.

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I got my copy of Return of the King out to provide proof for what I was saying here >>84086730. The eagles did *not* destroy the Nazgul's beasts. How could they, they're fucking eagles

So how good is elf pussy?

>>84086504
If the ring is in its own ownership, that means it lies on the ground without a vessel. And then it waits to be found

>>84086947
Yeah sorry celeborn and cirdan are tied with her pretty much

>>84087004
>That's a name I don't remember at all.
It's the same guy.

>>84086977
Is it rape or murder if your invisible all powerful dick kills the elf you're raping?

>>84087019
I would if I had my own copies. The ones I read were my dad's old boxset.

>>84087053
Pretty sure Cirdan is the eldest of those, but he didn't get to see dem trees so he is a bitch ass nigga

If Gandalf put on the ring would he go invisible?

>>84087023
They are not Eagles, they are maiar like Gandalf, of manwe. They are just in the form of Eagles.

>>84087028
Pretty damn good, according to Aragorn.

>>84087028
Good enough for Numenorean, good enough for me.

>>84087070

yes

>>84087023
the eagles are gods you dumb ass and can easily destroy the fellbeasts

but due to MUH PLOT they can't because tolkien can't write a plot for shit

>>84086978
>>84086957
Ah I see. What about if i shove it up my ass? Can I have an all powerful ass?

>>84087081
If God ate Eucharist, would he become more holy?

Gandalf is already the equivalent of an angel, if he were allowed to, he could probably become invisible. His speciality is specifically fire and light so it kinda would make sense.

>>84087103
>>84087028

>since elves are immortal, their vaginas don't age either, they remain as taut yet malleable as a flowering girl throughout their entire existence

>>84087152
well it will definitely fit around the giant dick that gets slammed in your ass every night

>>84087040
No, it's its own vessel. You give it to itself. It is designed to A) return to Sauron and 2) cause its owner's downfall. Because its goal is to return to Sauron and its other goal is to thwart its owner, it thereby thwarts its own goal and does not return to Sauron. It sits inert, defeating itself, forever.

>>84087158
So why does Sauron want the ring so bad? Doesn't seem like becoming invisible is a real necessity for him.

>>84087099
>>84087143
You guys need to improve because these trolling attempts are piss poor

/tv/ used to mean something

>>84087163
>since elves are immortal, their vaginas don't age either, they remain as taut yet malleable as a flowering girl throughout their entire existence
is that actually in the books?

>>84087194
so you're saying fellbeasts are more powerful than....gods?

i love arguing with tolkienautists btw, it's so fun watching you run around trying to find excuses for these giant holes

>>84087152
Its time to stop

>>84087172
The ring is a vessel and cannot own itself. The entire point is that it is a sort of phylactery for saurons glow/spirit.

>>84087212

I mean, if the rest of their body is that way...

>>84087028
From what I've gathered, brace yourself my man. It is the highest trim of pussy.

>>84087218
>The ring is a vessel and cannot own itself.
If the ring can't own anything, and the ring is Sauron, how can Sauron own the ring?
Checkmate.

>>84087189
It is his dick. Someone cut off his dick. He wants to be whole again.
>>84087194
do you think these fucking enormous Eagles that live for hundreds of years are anything but magical dude?

>>84087246
So then elf pusy taste good? Does it make you invisible?

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>>84087023
yeah how could this but 100 times bigger kill something

>>84087247
The ring is not Sauron, its containing a part of his soul.

>>84087172
That wouldnt defeat the ring, the ring would just wait to be found in that situation. Are you really this retarded?

>>84087313
>The ring is not Sauron
>It's just the essence of Sauron
lol ok

>>84087023
>eowyn chops the head off a fellbeast
>eagles aren't powerful enough to kill fellbeasts

hmmmm

>>84087343
Eagles can't wield swords, dumbass.

>>84087343
But she was a strong, powerful womyn.

>>84087329
You must be the kind of douche who thinks harry and voldemort are also 1 and the same

If you eat elf pusy while wearing the ring, do you become visible?

this is so fucking complicated

>>84087329
Yeah man. If someone cuts off your hand, it's still your hand in the sense that it was attached to you at one point, but it is no longer a part of the whole that is you.

>>84087343

she had grrl power!

>>84087379
>Harry Potter
Don't make me post it.

>>84086098
Great. You jinxed it.

>>84087218
The ring is clearly at least somewhat sentient if it can actively choose to return to Sauron. Giving the ring to itself is totally viable.

>>84087323
You're right, it would be found. By its owner: i.e. itself. Game over.

>>84085605
Last time the fucked half of Beleriand

>>84087383
>my physical hand is just like my divine soul
lol ok

What happens if you put the ring on while in the spirit world?

>>84087361
those claws are bigger than swords you idiot and probably as sharp

>>84087361
so a mortal female can swing a sword and chop a fellbeasts head off, but a god in the form of an eagle can't bite a fellbeasts head off

bravo tolkien

>>84087493
>claws of some gay ass birds
>as sharp as strong Rohan steel
nope

>>84087429
The ring is not a self. Its an artifact. Its a piece of metal. It cannot world itself anymore than a sword can world itself. You had best be trolling

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>>84087217
>>84087271
Eagles aren't gods though. You only want them to be, but Tolkien rejected that idea.

>In the last of his notes on this topic, dated by his son to late 1950s, Tolkien decided that the Great Eagles were common animals that had been "taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level — but they still had no fëar."[21]

Also remember that Nazgul get vastly more powerful when the ring is nearby and when they're all gathered together (rather than dispersed like in the last battles of LoTR).

So. You're saying that it would be a GOOD IDEA to send the ring with some brave, talking birds into Mordor, who would be seen immediately, up against the Nine all gathered together, their power greatly enhanced by proximity to the ring

You think this is a good idea despite the Nazguls surviving an attack by a massive horde of your talking birds while separated from their leader, distracted by battle and without the ring nearby. Hmmmm

>>84087523
do you have any idea how sharp eagles talons are?

>>84087496
Only female god in the form of female eagles

>>84087194
They are literally magic god beings that works for Manwë and they had a part in the downfall of fucking Númenor.

>>84087537
If the ring put the ring on would it be invisible?

>>84087569
>They are literally magic god beings that works for Manwë
According to you, not according to Tolkien.

>>84087551
Not as sharp as glorious Rohan steel.

>>84087545
they are talking about the fellbeasts, not the nerds riding them

>>84087587
The book of lost tales is doodoo.

>>84087545
the nazgul are different from the fellbeasts. eowyn chops the head off a fellbeast, your argument is invalid

if a midget stronk female can chop the head off one, why can't eagles wreck them? oh i know, because the plot says so

>>84085360
Ah man I forgot about these. What're these even called? They were fucking hilarious and they died out way too soon.

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>>84087591
>>84087632
>they are talking about the fellbeasts, not the nerds riding them
Yeah, I'm talking about the fellbeasts too. The fellbeasts survived the attacks by the swarm of eagles in that last battle before the black gate, because when Frodo puts on the ring they all fly to the fucking volcano. They fly. On their beasts. See >>84087023

This happens after the eagles have been attacking them for a while

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>>84082491
tfw I will never relish lady Galadriel with my love and despair daily

>>84087654
>This happens after the eagles have been attacking them for a while

so therefore eowyn is stronger than giant eagles

lol bravo

>>84085040
Jesus, what are you a fucking ent?

>>84087589
maybe not, but the legs of those guys would be so much stronger than a girl arm. I think that would let it cut at least as good as a sword in that context.

>>84087537
>ring has clear goals such as returning to Sauron
>Sauron and the ring are clearly separate because Sauron does not know where it is

Ergo, the ring is sentient. Ergo, the ring can own things as a sentient being. Ergo, give the ring to itself, trapping it in an endless self-defeating loop. Ergo, lorefags finally bow a fucking knee.

>>84087429
If it has to be found it has no owner. If the ring is inert because it is dormant in its own possession must mean there is no other ownership over the ring. Returning the ring to its only function. To be found.

Stop trying to find a loophole where there isnt one.

So, what would a ringed-Galadriel rule actually look like, specifically? What would she do?

>>84087693
How do you propose to "give the ring to itself"?

>>84087703
Probably act like a retard, swear some oaths and do some kinslaying.

>>84087677
Eowyn

1) has a sword
2) is attacking a fell beast which is sitting down on the grass

Tolkien describes the fellbeasts as being clumsy and ungainly on the ground.

>>84087343

Witch King was a total kissless, hugless virgin who dropped his spaghetti at the first scent of a non-orc girl in several thousand years

>>84087735
Simple. We give the ring to the ring.

>>84087748
How?

>>84084166
That's actually really interesting and explains a lot of the inconsistencies.

Thanks, anon.

>>84087436
Ok. Send a smaller army instead.

>>84087767
You take the ring, and you give it to the ring.

>>84087702
>If the ring is inert because it is dormant in its own possession must mean there is no other ownership over the ring.
>other ownership

This is where you fuck up. It doesn't need other ownership. It owns itself. So it tries to cause its owner's downfall, which is itself. So it accomplishes this by defeating its owner's only desire: to return to Sauron. So it never returns to Sauron and the series ends.

>>84087735
Just take the ring and give it to itself you idiot.

>>84087740
and the eagles are like 10x the size of eowyn and have beaks and talons

>>84083645
Nigger if the balrog is on the same level as gandalf then why would it be better to give it to him over gandalf

>>84087815
You are also sentient (although barely). But I cannot give you to yourself. And the ring has neither arms, nor hands nor fingers. So how do you give the ring to itself?

>>84087839
Balrog is a tank, Gandalf is a healer.

>>84087813
>>84087436
Just send Tulkas to elebow drop Mordor.

>>84087853
I could totally give myself to myself. I'll do it right now.

As for the ring, you literally just give the ring to itself. It's not a hard concept.

>>84087820
>selfownership
>rendering it inert
>returns to basic function
>wait to be found.

I dont think you know how this ring works

>>84083645
>>84082307
Ya'll don't get it. Sauron poured most of his being in that ring. Galadriel saying those things doesn't mean it would be true, she would just become a product of Sauron's corruption in time. Same with Gandalf. Same with a Balrog. This was some damn tricky magic that elevated Sauron above his normal station and at a great cost.

>>84087853
>But I cannot give you to yourself.
Of course you can. I do it all the time. If I can do it, so can the ring.

>>84087681
Kek I don't know if you're calling him slow.

>>84087934
Just have the ghost of Celebrimbor craft another perfect Sauron-free ring :^)

>>84087937
What if they tried that but the ring just refused?

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>>84087829
>and the eagles are like 10x the size of eowyn and have beaks and talons

Uh huh. So they presumably scratched up some of the fellbeasts. Big fucking deal. The eagles also had no riders, whereas the fellbeasts had Nazgul riding them, presumably with swords and other weapons and their general aura of dread. Would be hard to get near that in the air.

IDK why people get so worked up over the eagles, they were only big talking birds. What's some sharp claws going to do against demons with swords riding beasts which also have sharp claws?

>>84087967
Why would the ring refuse? The ring is a baddie, so he has no reason to refuse a powerful ring like Galadriel did.

If you put the ring up your ass, would you turn invisible?

>>84082662
I'm already googling gimly rule34

>>84087966
You probably could, but the theme of corruption in the tolkien universe is such that you'll end up like Morgoth/Sauron/Saruman in the end.

>>84088005
if eowyn can chop the head off one then the eagles can easily do the same thing with their claws. they are stronger and larger than eowyn.

stop making excuses anon

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>>84086213
>mfw autists actually took the b8

>>84088032
But it knows that it causes it's owners downfall, and it wouldn't want to cause it's own downfall.

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>>84088067
She chopped the head off a riderless one that was sitting down on the ground trying to eat its evening meal. There's a pretty clear difference.

>>84088005
A Japanese Zero with a pilot with a sword vs a Spitfire and pilot without a sword, who would win?

no bullets.

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>>84087961
Nah i was refering to how she supposedly could reach his balls while sitting on his face. But slow may also be appropriate.

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>>84087379
They might not be the same but are part of one of the dullest franchises in history. Seriously each episode following the boy wizard and his pals from Hogwarts Academy as they fight assorted villains has been indistinguishable from the others. Aside from the gloomy imagery, the series’ only consistency has been its lack of excitement and ineffective use of special effects, all to make magic unmagical, to make action seem inert.

Perhaps the die was cast when Rowling vetoed the idea of Spielberg directing the series; she made sure the series would never be mistaken for a work of art that meant anything to anybody?just ridiculously profitable cross-promotion for her books. The Harry Potter series might be anti-Christian (or not), but it’s certainly the anti-James Bond series in its refusal of wonder, beauty and excitement. No one wants to face that fact. Now, thankfully, they no longer have to.

>a-at least the books were good though
"No!"
The writing is dreadful; the book was terrible. As I read, I noticed that every time a character went for a walk, the author wrote instead that the character "stretched his legs."

I began marking on the back of an envelope every time that phrase was repeated. I stopped only after I had marked the envelope several dozen times. I was incredulous. Rowling's mind is so governed by cliches and dead metaphors that she has no other style of writing. Later I read a lavish, loving review of Harry Potter by the same Stephen King. He wrote something to the effect of, "If these kids are reading Harry Potter at 11 or 12, then when they get older they will go on to read Stephen King." And he was quite right. He was not being ironic. When you read "Harry Potter" you are, in fact, trained to read Stephen King.

>>84088033
It enhances your abilities, so in your case you could take even bigger dicks. Then it ends up a cockring for the daddy diddling you.

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>>84088096
Calling stupid illconcieved brainfarts bait

>>84086358
lol

>>84082491
>yfw you will never seduce a god empress as a mere mortal
> ywn follow her around and be at her every beck n call and pleasure her each night
>ywn eventually regret your decision to side with the her against all humanity and then decide to betray her
>yfw you fuck it up and she stops you at the last second
>ywn know what it feels like to hurt a super natural being more than any other mortal could hope to achieve
>you will never experience getting blown to a billion pieces as she obliterates you with dark magic with tears in her eyes

feels quaint mang

>>84086213
>implying that's not what happened

>>84086482
The thing Tolkien got wrong is that he made the dwarves hard working craftsmen and warriors. Jews don't mine for gold. They don't fight. They swindle the gentiles into doing that for them.

>>84088128
so now you're saying the fellbeast is an idiot for eating in the middle of a battle

>>84088150
oh fug my precious!

>>84087928
You're thinking I'm proposing just leaving the ring on some bench or something and calling it a day.
No. Of course it would go back to its basic function then.

What you do is give the ring to itself. Therefore its base function is fulfilled, and its two main purposes activate, trapping it in an endless battle with itself.

>>84088198
Sounds pretty smart. Means the gentiles are a bunch of retards who don't deserve any better.

>>84088105
That takes wisdom and willpower to understand. The ring is going be too greedy to refuse.

>>84088143
What has this meme to do with me saying you are retarded? How is this insulting me? Pick ur memes better buddy

>>84088207
If you're hungry then you've got to eat. I'm not judging, just pointing out that it's easier to get your head chopped off by girls with swords when you're sitting down and eating rather than flying into battle

>>84088224
If you gave the ring to itself would it be invisible?

>>84088245
The ring isn't greedy. It want's to get back to Sauron. Owning itself would prevent that, thus it would refuse.
Checkmate.

>>84088268
>If you're hungry then you've got to eat

spoken like a true lard ass. it was in the middle of a battle, it couldn't wait 5 minutes?

>>84088273
No, its not wearing itself, that would be impossible you dumbass.

It would own itself however.

>>84088224
In a set location, in which someone eventually will pass by and find it.

>>84088297
>It want's to get back to Sauron.
The fastest way to Sauron is a straight path. The Ring being in control of itself can go straight to Sauron, ergo, it would not refuse.
Checkmate.

>>84088322
It wouldn't be drawing people to find it because it's already owned. So at that point, you could just bury the bitch 50 meters underground and call it a day.

>>84088328
But the ring is inanimate. How would that work

>>84088328
>The Ring being in control of itself can go straight to Sauron
No, it wouldn't be, because it causes it's owners Downfall like you said.

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>>84086572
>>84086588

>>84088412
A moot point. If the ring is inanimate, it can't refuse to take the ring since it has no consciousness of it's own, thus, it has to take itself anyway.

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>>84088465

>>84088394
How does time work, how does erosion work, how does chance work. Too many factors, it might take a while but the ring will be found. Thats what the whole fucking point was of smeagol and deagol finding the ring at the bottom of the river. It will be found by chance, although it will take ages. And the ring will wait to be found. As it is an inanimate object.

they should have just given the ring back to gollum and let him fuck off in a cave somewhere. he was there for 500 fucking years eating fish and jerking off about the ring and nothing happened

>>84088486
Strawman, dont dodge the real question

>>84086013
>>84085953
>>84085828
Why didn't they just put the ring on a bacteria so sauron couldn't find it?

>>84088453
First it has to find it's way to Sauron to cause his downfall. But the ring only causes the downfall of others in order to get to Sauron; but the ring is Sauron, so it can't cause it's own downfall.
Bazingo.

>>84088575
they should have put the ring on your dick because then it would be basically invisible

>>84088486
>it has no consciousness of it's own
You argued the opposite before. If it doesn't have a consciousness, it can't own things, including itself.

>>84088565
It's a perfectly reasonable suggestion.

>>84088586
The ring causes the downfall of everything BUT Sauron, that's clearly stated.

>>84088518
It was found by Smeagol because the ring can kind of influence fate and/or nearby people to ensure it will be found. Because when it is not owned, its primary purposes to find an owner.

But once it owns itself, it will no longer be manipulating people to find an owner. It will have an owner. So it will stop looking for an owner and boot up its other two functions: return to Sauron and cause its owners downfall. Hence the endless loop, with no owner being magically guided to it. They could just seal the bitch in solid iron and throw it into the deepest ocean at that point, bam, its done, its over. It's not going to attract any cthulus or evil fishies or whatever because it already owns itself. It will just sit there forever, metaphorically punching itself in the face, until the end of time.

>>84088622
You state if its in its own possesion it will go straight shorts route to sauron. How will an inanimate object perform such a feat?

>>84088661
And the ring is Sauron, so it can't cause it's own downfall and is free to travel straight to Mordor.
Maharjha.

REALLY good thread

>>84088613
No, you claimed the ring is inanimate. Accepting your premise, I surmised that your question is thus a moot point.

>>84088661
>naw if a demigod like Gangalf or Galadriel had the ring they could probably vanquish what was left of Sauron's physical form. At that point they ring would just corrupt them on its own with whatever was left of sauron in the ring and they would slowly go mad with power

>>84088691
>How will an inanimate object perform such a feat?
By going to Mordor the fastest route possible.

>>84088689
You fucking idiot. I know you are just a troll, but the rings purpose isn't "to cause its owners downfall". It has a single purpose: To return to Sauron. Everything else it does are just ways to achieve it. It also drives it's owners crazy because it's too powerful for them to handle. But that's not the function of the ring, just a side effect.

>>84088689
If a ring can own itself, then why are you owned by the jews?

Why wasn't the chain necklace corrupted when it put on the ring?

>>84088778
That wasn't me. Besides, inanimate doesn't mean it doesn't have a consciousness.

>>84088778
Being inanimate does not mean unconcious.

>>84088613
You're talking to a different guy.
The ring is clearly sentient, and can therefore own itself, but it can't refuse owning itself because t's a ring. How would it refuse? It doesn't have a mouth to say no or anything. Get real.

>>84088864
>>84088871
Then all is well and the ring can go to Mordor. Everyone wins, except Humans, Dwarves, Elves and everyone else west/north of Mordor.

>>84088810
At 0mph?

>>84088937
That's up to the ring. He should go at whatever pace he feels most comfortable.

>>84088523
Yeah, but then Sauron would have still destroyed everyone.

>>84088902
It would just refuse, are you retarded?

>>84088969
Goodnight

>>84089001
I bid thee adieu as well!

>>84088913
So why would the Fellowship do that?

>What is this new sorcery?
>A Balrog, an accountant of the ancient world. This foe can audit any of you. RUN!

>>84089032
Nihilism is hell of a self-defeating philosophy.

This thread is gold.

>>84088999
It can't, it's just a ring.

So therefore, you give the ring to itself, it owns itself, and it is thereby permanently defeated, alongside all the lorefags.

>>84085857
The ring would drive the elves there crazy in their lust for it and paradise would be ruined.

>>84088999
How would it refuse?

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>>84086393
Honestly, I'm disappointed I had to get this far into the thread before having an excuse to post this.

>>84089128
Of course it can, it's conscious. It just needs to refuse.

>>84089236
By just refusing to own itself, of course.

>>84088999
nothing can resist the ring

>>84089286
Don't be ridiculous, it's just a ring. It has no plausible way of refusing itself.

Therefore, when you offer the ring to itself, it would have no choice but to accept ownership of itself.

>>84089336
Why would it refuse to own itself? Doesn't it want the fabled One Ring? The ring would be stupid to pass this opportunity up. This is the ring with a piece of Sauron's soul, not Feanor's. The ring is not retarded.

>>84089371
Gandalf, Galadriel, Bilbo and Sam did it.

>>84089427
>>84089464
Why shouldn't it be able to refuse itself. All it needs to do is refuse. Even a child can do that. Stop making shit up.

>>84089464
>The ring is not retarded.
Exactly. So it know that it would cause its own downfall, which it wouldn't want, because it wants to get back to Sauron. So it would refuse. It's simple.

>>84089506
How would you refuse something offered to you? You would wave your hand dismissively, walk away, or perhaps say "No thanks!" The ring can't do any of those things.

So you just give it to it and that's that.

>>84089549
>So it know that it would cause its own downfall
The ring would never do that. It only fucks with others to get close to Sauron. The ring would not have to fuck with anyone if the ring owned the ring. Why cause your own downfall when you can just walk to Mordor without anyone else trying use you for other shit?

>>84089573
It refuses to pick itself up. Learn how to deny yourself, pleb, you'll never be a Buddhist like the ring at this rate.

>>84089573
You don't even need to do anything to refuse something. Just not accept.

>>84089612
So then it still wouldn't work to give the ring to itself, which is why the Fellowship didn't do it.

>>84089795
It would work. Just follow the ring on his way to Mordor, then jump it near Mt. Doom and throw it into the fire.

EZPZ

>>84089670
>>84089761
You guys are just being silly now. How would a ring refuse itself? It's just a little band of metal.

The second you gave the ring to the ring, the ring would own the ring. Get real.

>>84089854
It wouldn't come even close to Mount Doom, because Barad-Dur is a few miles in front of it. It would just march through the Black Gate (where you can't follow it anymore) and then climb up the tower to get to Sauron.

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I love that this thread is separated into people having a laugh, and autists who honestly think people are this fucking retarded.

>>84089761
>You don't even need to do anything to refuse something. Just not accept.
>you don't have to do anything
>just actively refuse
gotcha

>>84089862
Just by refusing to pick itself up. It can't own itself if it doesn't even pick itself up, that just doesn't make any sense. Think about it, anon.

>>84089904
And it's all just one and the same guy!

>>84088143
What a shitty meme chart. Gatsby and 1984 that high, Catch 22 that low? At least they got Invisible Man right.

>>84089897
>(where you can't follow it anymore)
Then how did Fordo get into Mordor? Of course they can follow it, they already did before!

>>84089912
I didn't say actively. It can just passively refuse.

>>84089991
Oh and Atlas Shrugged, really?

>>84089943
It totally can own itself without picking itself up. Do you not own your home because you haven't picked it up? No.
You just give it to itself. It's that simple.

>>84090018
But they couldn't get through the Black Gate, they had to go miles and miles around it. The ring would've climbed the tower a long time before they arrive.

>>84090033
You can't passively refuse.

>>84090074
Of course I picked up my home, otherwise I wouldn't own it. Jesus Christ anon, did you not pick up your own home? Holy fucking shit, I would change that immediately, otherwise anybody can just come and take it.

>>84090096
Sure you can. Indifference is refusal.

>>84090085
Just gotta plan ahead bro. Maybe use an Eagle to hide in the clouds.
Or better yet, pretend to be an orc, and tell the ring you will carry him to Mordor. It has no eyes anyway. So just lull it into a false sense of security and bam, Mt. Doom his round ass when he least expects it.

>>84090096
Of course you can. I just refused to agree with you. Didn't need to do anything to do that.

>>84087023
people have trained hawks and eagles to kill humans for centuries. An hawk with a 3 foot wingspan can kill a human when trained to.

>>84090157
The ring doesn't have eyes, no. But the millions of orcs, trolls, humans, the Nazgul and Sauron itself have eyes and would notice that as soon as you enter Mordor.

>>84087934
Didn't the 3 Elves resist the effect of their respective rings, as opposed to the 9 human kings ?