The Force Awakens

>>83838424
He got shot in the stomach moments before by a blast that would kill 99% of people

>>83838424
She believed in herself the mostest

>>83838543
Darth Vader was literally a torso on stilts and in constant pain and he could win again moderately trained duelists.

The actual answer is: Rey is a super force user in a completely different league

JJ stated that Kylo was only trained in the force, the battle with rey was his first melee combat.
Rey already knew how to fight with his stick at least

>>83838424
women are stronger than men, get over it

>>83838668
This tbqhwyf

>>83838424
Because he was seriously wounded.
Because she's super gifted.
Because she was lucky.
Because plot.
>>83838656
>not trained in melee combat

That literally makes zero sense. I'm more willing to accept Rey winning because shes the protagonist/chosen one/Mary Sue/etc.

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>>83838668
>this is my biggest fetish

The force, you goddamn falseflagger.

>>83838424
Because fuck the first 3 star wars films and fuck Jedi training from three years old using buckets on their head to shoot training orbs.

Rey had a force awakening like Luke did, in the Star Wars universe your power level shoots through the roof, Kylo was still trained better which is why he did fine despite having a wound in him that'd kill any normal human.

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>>83838698
This. >>83838656 sounds like 100% Damage Controll bullshit by JJ about a decision he regrets, even though everybody is already cool with the fact that Rey is simply a Force prodigy

>>83838656
Lol what a moron. He just keeps destroying the movie even more after it was finished.

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>>83838668

Because the script needed it to happen.

Never mind that it completely deflates a primary villain in the first 1/3rd of a trilogy.

>>83838651
And yet he was beaten by someone who had only ever been in one lightsaber fight before. As the other guy said, at least Rey was clearly trained in combat.

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>>83839123
This. In proper lightsaber scenes, it's the psychologically ready who wins.

Obi-Wan can be argued to have lost on purpose (or having actually Won) in EpIV, but in any case he felt he had fulfilled his mission. He didn't need to win in a conventional fashion.

Luke vs. Vader in EpV is obvious. Luke was in over his head and he knew it.

Luke vs. Vader in EPVI has the opposite outcome because though initially matched, Luke gets the emotional boost that Vader couldn't get.

The fight in EpVII is fine. Rey is talented, sure, but also was protecting a friend; Kylo had just killed his own dad, and was in a state of general turmoil, mental and physical

>>83838543
>>83838651

Bullshit he easily jobbed Finn. Reys a Mary sue.

>>83838656
Bullshit! You can box a bag of sand but go to the mma and box those guys as easily. JJs a pile of shit as is his boss Kennedy. Reys a stinking Mary sue.

>>83838823
But Luke only ever used the force to tell him when to fire the homing missiles. Reys a Mary sue.

>>83838424
because she closed her eyes and believed like any good Disney PrincessTM

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>mfw people have to argue about which Star Wars movies are the best instead of just enjoying all the awesomeness

>>83838656

>kylo make a laser sword
>don't bother learning how to use it though haha

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>>83839578
This is such a normie post

>>83839044
>he still thinks KR is the primary villian

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>>83838424
Because she's a reincarnation of the "first Jedi, as revealed in the force sloth scene in Episode 8. Yes, it I agree that it's retarded that they didn't even hint at this fact in force awakens; but the entire story is retarded garbage anyways so who cares?

>>83838424
in yesterday's leaks, if I remember, the french dude said that it was because she kinda tapps into the darkside, and is closer to it than Kylo is, I think.

>>83839628
He's a stinking shill. I've seen that exact post pasta 30 times plus just now.

>>83839628
>posts facebook frog
>calls someone else a normie

>>83839648

Unless they completely up-end it, in which case we have a whole other, even more egregious kettle of retarded fish on our hands, hes going to remain a major antagonist, an antagonist who was eclipsed in the first third of the story, both mentally and physically by a completely untrained, unprepared protagonist.

Regardless of what you think about it in the context of the film 'muh injuries' and so forth. It's a bad move from a pure storytelling angle, and completely removes any threat he posed as an antagonist.

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>>83840069
With the bland overpowered MC, the only way of salvaging this shit into an actually interesting story would be to make Rey and Kylo change sides for the third movie.

Rey has like way too much power; Luke can't give her proper training and/or answers, and she eventually falls into the hands of Snoke.

Kylo keeps failing at everything he does and feeling like shit, and eventually comes back to the light side to get things over on his own terms.

Final movie shows both his atonement and her attempt to make sense of her role, and in the end they team up to vanquish Snoke and seal Force Usage in general so story stops repeating itself.

Also Phasma goes on a date or something maybe.

>>83840258
> Phasma
> tfw cool tertiary 'strong man' villain a-la plane nazi in indiana jones gets reduced to 'PUT HER IN THE TRASH SHUTE!'

Stop reminding me of why i fucking hate this trash film dude. No doubt even though that place blew the fuck up shes going to inexplicably return too.

Also they could never do justice to such a plotline so you know they're not going to bother, hence the 'more egregious kettle of retarded fish.'

For simplicites sake i pray they don't try and pull such a fucking obvious switcheroo.

>>83838424
The film was setting Kylo up to lose. Rey tapped into the dark side and kicked his shit which caught him off guard. Kind of like how he was surprised Rey was able to resist his mind rape

>>83838651
Darth Vader had a suit keeping him alive, and it's pretty safe to assume he at least had some painkillers being pumped into him.

Ren had no painkillers, no suit, and was likely having to focus his power heavily on keeping his intestines from falling out of his body. He was gut shot but the goddamn crossbow, that thing is powerful as hell.


The fact that anybody questions how he got his butt kicked just shows how many retards there are in the world.

It makes sense that she knows how to fight, She grew up on a hostile planet with raiders harvesting scrap for a living. She probably had to learn to defend herself almost immediately.

But I really wish she'd used some kind of sword instead of the bo-staff. Then it would make much more sense for her to pick up a lightsaber and actually put up a fight.

Even with Kylo injured, she did far too well for having basically no experience with the weapon.

>>83839622
Who the fuck would he have fought with? He was literally the only person around with a light saber. Practicing on a punching bag does not prepare you for an actual boxing match. It makes perfect sense, you're just a bunch of butthurt autists who care more about muh EU than about logic and find anything at all to get your gay little panties in a bunch about.

>>83840258
She gets quite a lot more attractive in profile and isn't *really* a fivehead.

The problem with this trilogy is that they purposely have nothing planned out. They're trying to make it like how Lucas made the OT back in the 80s..just go with the flow.

No. That shit doesn't work now Disney. You had 6 movies and a shitload of EU content to work with. There's no excuse for not having a somewhat planned out story.

>>83840772

Don't forget her being able to resist his force mind probe, as well as out-power his force grasp with her own.

>>83840772
>she did far too well for having basically no experience with the weapon
It's a fucking stick. Yes, it's a lazer stick, but still a stick. Human's have been using sticks as weapons since the beginning of time, if a caveman could figure out how to fight with a stick, it's not surprising that a girl who had a bunch of experience fighting with another kind of stick and who is clearly very powerful in the force would pick it up pretty quick

>>83838698
>another one of those fucks

There no such thing as a Mary Sue. It's just some bullshit that a blogger made up to complain about bad fanfic.

If there were such a thing, Luke and just about every other young hero is the same.

Lastly, I don't here you retarded ass complaining that Luke was able to go from n00b to superJedi after ten minutes with an old dude and three weeks in a swamp with a muppet.

>>83840791

They could easily build a robot or use stormtroopers.

>>83840866
>if a caveman could figure out how to fight with a stick

finn did
topkek

>>83840886
/ T H R E A D
T
H
R
E
A
D

>>83840931
We'll memed friend!

>>83840886
Seriously fucking this.

I am so sick of this Mary Sue bullshit, how do you all not see how fucking autistic you sound? Literally every protagonist in ever story ever fits the description.

>>83840857
Rey's force ability is so ridiculous that I at least think there's some kind of plot reason for it. Like she's some kind of super-embued force user on the level of Anakin or something.

But using a weapon she should have no idea how to use and beating a trained master of said weapon is just kinda dumb.

That and being able to fly the Falcon like a goddamn champ despite living on Jakku for her whole entire life where the two places I felt like they overstepped with her.

>>83840866
The same could be said of swords.
A sword is just a sharp metal stick.
Does that mean you or a caveman could beat an expertly trained swordsman in a sword fight?

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>>83839330
it's amazing that a simple morality play for children is too complicated and has to be explained to the prequelbabbies and wookiepedia autists on this board

>>83840999
>an expertly trained swordsman
>kylo ren

you must be joking

>>83841033
He's spent years training to be a knight under both Jedi and Sith masters. He's probably pretty good.

>>83841033

Skilled enough to wipe out all of Lukes other apprentices.

>>83841082
>He's spent years training to be a knight under both Jedi and Sith masters
We don't know how long he was with Luke, and the Sith don't exist anymore. Who after Luke was training him to use a light saber?
It's very likely that he didn't have much experience with it under Luke, if you remember Luke's training with Yoda, he never actually trained him to use the light saber, he was training him to use The Force.

>>83841201
>skilled enough to wipe out a bunch of children

yeah i bet that was a challenge

>>83841201
>ganged up on a bunch of trainees with his knights of ren, Captain Phasma, and and bunch of stormtroopers

Must be a total badass

>>83841082
>He's spent years training to be a knight under both Jedi and Sith masters
I think part of the problem is that you fags make up all this bullshit in your gay little imaginations that isn't actually in the movie.

1. We have no idea how long Kylo was with Luke or how much he actually got trained on the saber
2. As the other anon said, there are no more sith, and who the fuck would have trained Kylo after Luke? Snoke? We have zero reason to believe that they had ever met in person, let alone that Snoke even knew how to use a light saber. Snoke isn't sith, there are no sith or jedi, nobody (other than luke) could have trained kylo to use the saber

>>83841317
>>83841246

So in what world did Luke not start training as many Jedi as he could from day 1 of dead empire.

You really think he had no adept or knight level Jedi in his association before Kylo was old enough to start training under him, let alone old enough to massacre everyone?

>>83841033
>>83841246
> Ren betrayed his fellow Jedi students, and, due to Ren's skills with his lightsaber, he killed them all, essentially destroying Skywalker's new Jedi and his hopes of bringing back the Jedi Order.

>>83841438
>So in what world did Luke not start training as many Jedi as he could from day 1 of dead empire
Uh, in the world that exists in Star Wars. As was said, you fags just make up a bunch of bullshit that isn't in the movies and act like it actually happened. Unless it is said or implied that Luke had trained other Jedi before Kylo, there is no reason to think he did.

>>83841471
>due to Ren's skills with his lightsaber, he killed them all
No, it was due to him being the only one of them WITH a light saber. He made his own shitty one himself, and there is no indication that any of the trainees had lightsabers.

Seriously. Get out of your gay imagination and pay attention to the real world.

>>83841576

> Stop imagining your own headcannon that's directly stated in the films and accompanying media released by Disney!
> HES THE ONLY ONE THAT HAD A LIGHTSABER BECAUSE HE BUILT IT HIMSELF!

Are you serious?

>>83840258
>seal Force Usage in general so story stops repeating itself.
They become Kreia?

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>Snoke said he didn't even finish his training

>Rey was fighting ever since she was a child in a hostile environment

hmmmmmmmmmm why did he lose

Same reason that Luke flew an X-Wing well and landed a one in a million shot even though he only used a tatooine spacecraft before

PLOT

THE FORCE IS JUST PLOT

>>83841606
>http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kylo_Ren%27s_lightsaber
fuck off, pleb

>>83838424
Rey beat him because he didn't intend to kill her but she had every intention of killing him. He was trying to spare her/injure her so he could take her on as an apprentice. The same thing happened to Vader when he fought Luke in RotJ.

>>83840886
Fucking this, and thats not even considering all the bullshit Anakin pulls off in TPM. The whole mary sue thing only ever become a meme talking point because Rey is girl. Even Rey flying the falcon is more believable than Anakin because you can visual see she's terrified and not going:
>WHATS THIS BUTTON DO?
>OOPS
>YIIIPPPPEEE
>NOW THIS IS FLYING!

>>83841711

So where does it say hes the only one capable of building a lightsaber of all of Lukes apprentices?

>>83841652
>using logic and the information we have actually been provided instead of ignoring logic and making up a bunch of nonsense you treat as facts

Clearly you aren't a TRUE Star Wars fan

>>83841766

Are you seriously. Seriously trying to act as though people weren't pissed off about all the fucking shit Anakin Skywalker pulled in The Phantom Menace?

Are you literally 12? Jesus H Christ.

>>83841773

It says he built his own light saber.

None of the media has told us that any of the other students had light sabers.

Therefore, we should not assume they did.

It's not that fucking difficult, you unbelievable retard.

>>83839705
Dafuq

>>83839895
>facebook frog
Say what

>>83841847
>It says he built his own light saber.

A regular ritual of every Jedi ever seen before in any and every other piece of Star Wars media.
Luke built a Green lightsaber all on his own. Why would he deny his other apprentices such a central aspect of the Jedi way?

So why are you assuming all the others don't have them? Sound to me you're doing the exact same shit you're accusing me of.

>>83838651
>Rey is a super force user in a completely different league
This and she already had some melee knowledge so it's not a stretch to assume she could best a dude who took a shot that throws mortals across rooms.

>>83838698
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqaiKmm8gsY

It makes more sense than most things in the movie. The luke who casts away his lightsaber here is a Luke I could easily imagine simply not training his students in that. Feelings of inadaquesy and abandonment from that could even be why he was turned by snoke

>>83841838
Given the amount of prequelbabbies on this board, yes

>>83838656
>JJ stated that Kylo was only trained in the force, the battle with rey was his first melee combat.
This is so dumb. So Snoke has never once tested his protege in actual combat? I can understand there not being a lot of lightsaber wielders around to practice with, but you'd think someone would at least spar with Kylo. Sith are supposed to be all about strength.

>>83841916
>So why are you assuming all the others don't have them?
I'll say this one more time....

BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T BEEN TOLD THAT THEY DID

Seriously dude how goddamn dense can you be

>character wears black and has a lightsaber so he must be a good fighter

Why are Star Wars fans such niggers?

>>83841916
Well, Luke needed a lightsaber because he was going up against other Sith with lightsabers. Maybe he thinks they're a distraction from the Jedi's role as mediators. If he was reopening the order he'd probably make a few changes.

But it still seems like a long shot.

>>83841994
>that spacing
You have to go back

>>83841975
SNOKE

ISNT

SITH

YOU

FUCKING

IDIOT

>character starts off strong at the beginning and falters later
one movie without the bogstandard heroes journey and everyone chimps out

>>83838424
>How was Rey able to defeat Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel?
If you don't understand how you are legit retarded.

>>83842082
Then what is he you, you... double-nigger

>>83842041
Jedi who got impaled in that vision didn' have one either

she's a strong independent woman with a beautiful smile who can do anything she puts her mind to

>>83838424
>How was Rey able to defeat Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel?
This >>83838622 basically. Which isn't out of place in Star Wars in itself, but the way the film is written makes it hard not to connect her jarringly sudden victory against Kylo with the casual ways she succeeds in the rest of the movie up to that point. It robs it of impact and significance and makes it feel instead like just another contrivance to make us think she's cool.

It doesn't help that there's a disconnect between the "injured and distraught" Kylo the movie tries to set up and the way the fight itself actually proceeds; it's like the screenplay and director were on two different pages.

>>83842127
>every person in the star wars universe is either a jedi or a sith
>every bad guy in star wars is a sith
>my tiny tard brain cannot process the possibility of anything else

I was more thrown off by the light sabers just leaving surface wounds, right after they were slicing through trees.

>>83842154
>It doesn't help that there's a disconnect between the "injured and distraught" Kylo the movie tries to set up and the way the fight itself actually proceeds

I mean the fight is pretty good, the way he wildly clips trees and rocks with his sword is kino

Rey is a Mary Sue because she is instantly liked, trusted and put on a pedestal by everyone she meets.

Han Solo wants her on his crew and trusts her enough to work on the Falcon. Chewbacca watches over her and rips off Unkar's arm to protect her, who also wants her for inexplicable reasons. Maz is willing to give her a lightsaber, and not just any lightsaber, but the Legacy lightsaber of the series. Finn loves her and his sole motivation in rescuing her is that he loves her. The major villains of the movie want her. Princess Leia hugs her and not Chewbacca when Han Solo dies, and personally tell her that the Force is with her. She inherits the Millennium Falcon, Chewbacca, and R2D2 when one of the three most beloved characters in the franchise is killed off. The primary villain of the movie, Kylo Ren, obsesses over her when she is his prisoner and is the first person in the movie to take his mask off to. Absolutely every single thing is handed to her and her competence and personality are never questioned in any way, shape or form by anyone in the movie.

This is what makes a Mary Sue. Not the fact that she has all of these amazing powers and abilities without even trying or without having been trained, but the fact that absolutely everyone she meets instantly likes and trusts her. This is the true mark of a Mary Sue, and it is due to an inability of a writer to create a compelling character. A Mary Sue will always be a stand-in for how the writer wants the fictional characters to react to them personally.

None of this can be refuted. She is a Mary Sue, and it isn't because she has powers and is a woman. It's because she is horribly written and to defend her is to defend bad writing.

>>83842146
THIS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KiR_DICYgM

49 seconds in, you fucking plebs

Kylo was the only one with a saber

>>83840991
>>83841766
Yup.

You never hear one of these cretins squawking about how Luke heard Obiwan, nailed the exhaust, and just happened to save the entire rebellion after one lesson of Blindfolded Lightsaber 101.

If Rey had been a guy they'd be jizzing out their mouths about how awesome he was.

>>83841994
>BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T BEEN TOLD THAT THEY DID

We haven't been told that they didn't.

>>83842388
>we haven't proven that god exists
>therefore we should believe that he does

>>83842232
>Rey is a Mary Sue because she is instantly liked, trusted and put on a pedestal by everyone she meets.

because she's the macguffin. characters should not have to fit a checklist of "PROVE URSELF" for ever film, she impresses both Han and Finn. everyone else, even Maz, gives her things or wants her because she is innately powerful. she's a living weapon

>>83840886

Han Solo spends the entire movie up until just prior to the Death Star run doubting Luke and questioning his competence. They're very first encounter displays that he is a Brash and arrogant individual who thinks highly of himself and doubts that Luke could pilot a ship by himself. It is only when Luke and he make up prior to the Death Star run that they truly become friends.

The very first thing Princess Leia says when she sees him is that he is short. She then spends the rest of the rescue criticizing them for how poorly planned this entire operation is. It is only after Obi-Wan dies that she feels sad for him, and she knew Obi-Wan as well.

Red leader doubts Luke until his best friend from childhood vouches for him. The only two people to instantly trust and like Luke are his best friend and the mentoring wizard who has been watching over him his entire life, both of which are character archetypes that Rey does not have.

Darth Vader does not even know who Luke is in the first movie.

Continuing on into the next films, Yoda immediately talks down to Luke and claims that he cannot be a Jedi. He reluctantly trains Luke even though he says Luke has no patience whatsoever. Jabba the Hutt does not fear Luke and absolutely refuses the Jedi's offer of peace, laughing about it.

The difference between Luke and Rey, setting aside all manner of power level arguments, is that people react reasonably and normally to Luke. Rey however is immediately liked and trusted by everyone she meets and is never so much as talked down to once in the film.

Both Luke and Rey accomplished amazing feats. Both of them have a connection to the force. But one of them is written well, and the other one is not.

>>83842367
a-fucking-men

>>83842367
OR MAYBE the story telling in Star Wars has always been shitty and it's really just a laser light show. There's your equality.

>>83842410

Bullshit.

>>83842174
Hopefully VIII and IX present some distinctions, but in VII there's no operative difference between Snoke and Kylo and the Sith. Kylo's idol was a Sith, even.

You're not wrong, but as of now they might as well be Sith.
>>83842367
No.

>>83842494
>Bullshit.
>The very first thing Princess Leia says when she sees him is that he is short.

You're right, the very first thing Leia did was ask if Luke had a girlfriend. Whoops!

>>83838424
Rey = Mary Sue

/thread

>>83842367
>Luke heard Obiwan.
That's more on Obi Wan than Luke.
>nailed the exhaust
He was already an experienced pilot, who bullseyed Womp rats that size on Tatooine.
>and just happened to save the entire rebellion after one lesson of Blindfolded Lightsaber 101.
He lent his piloting skills, him and Leia were both inspirational figures. Sheev dissolving the senate just before his Death Star was destroyed didn't help, as he no longer had the power to keep systems in line and the Rebellion gained more sympathy and support.

Nothing that Luke did pre-Yoda, comes close to the Jedi mindfuckery and Saber-prowess that Rey demonstrated.

>>83842512
>You're not wrong, but as of now they might as well be Sith.
God you're an idiot

>>83842367

Power level arguments are on the intellectual level of children playground fights about anime characters. You willingly disregard the fact that Rey is instantly liked and trusted by everyone she meets, thus making her a Mary Sue not due to powers or gender, but terrible self-insert fanfiction-tier writing.

All you focus on is feats, battles and the most blatant action qualities of a film like a child distracted by fireworks, and consequently you ignore the underlying themes at work in the fiction's story and characterization.

Only children care about power levels, who could beat who in a fight or whether one character's feats makes another immune from being called out as a Mary Sue. Incidentally, Rey is one. This is irrefutable.

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>>83842547
"You're a little short for a Stormtrooper, aren't you?"

"Huh? Oh, the uniform!"

I wouldn't even know this if it isn't referenced in the English translation for Final Fantasy VI.

>>83838651
>Darth Vader was literally a torso on stilts and in constant pain and he could win again moderately trained duelists.

Vader was trained his whole life by Jedi who were master duelists.

Luke was trained for 15 minutes in the same stuff Jedi toddlers learn to do and then his mentor died. Yoda never taught him any saber stuff.

And Ren learned everything from THAT guy.

>>83842747
I'm not talking about canon, I'm talking about their presented worldview and their role in the story.

So far, we haven't seen any major differences between Snoke/Kylo and Palpatine and his apprentices. It's the same usual Dark Side stuff.

>>83842803
>Vader was trained his whole life by Jedi who were master duelists.
>Luke was trained for 15 minutes in the same stuff Jedi toddlers learn to do and then his mentor died. Yoda never taught him any saber stuff.

And then Vader beat him and cut off his hand.

>>83840791
>Who the fuck would he have fought with?
Seeing as Rey apparently became combat proficient just from beating up random dudes who tried to fuck with her, probably just about anybody.

>>83842987
>just about anybody
>just about anybody had a lightsaber

>>83839622
It fits his characterization as a tryhard. He wants to seem cool and badass, but combat training with grunts isn't cool.

>>83838543
>that would kill 99% of people
Yet a clone suffered over a dozen shots before collapsing.
Just admit it, it was shit writing.

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>>83843045
Maybe that was this guy's job.

>>83840258
This doesn't sound half bad. Why aren't you writing this dreck?

>>83838656
Going to need a source. I don't recall JJ ever, ever saying that Kylo didn't have lightsaber battle experience. Clearly he does because he's been going around as Snoke's lackey with his saber for years.

People calling Rey a Mary Sue most likely aren't calling her that just cuz she's a girl, but because she's not written well and the whole new story is crap. She's just bland and uninteresting. The same people probably think Jon Snow is a Gary Stu

>>83841246
Who the fuck said they were children, asshole? Stop spouting horse shit. There were probably a bunch either Ren's age or older.

>>83841528
Try the opposite. He had a whole academy. Until it's said otherwise, there's no reason to think that he wasn't training people before Kylo. Absolutely nothing suggests Kylo was his first student. If anything, Leia would have sent Ben to Luke because she knew he was doing this teaching thing and was decent at it.

>>83843045
That's my point, apparently you don't even need to fight opponents wielding lightsabers to become at least somewhat competent at using one. Hell, you don't even need to use a lightsaber yourself, a bo staff works just fine as a substitute.

>ren tries fighting some stormtroopers to git gud
>they either let him win to avoid pissing him off or he throws a fit and force chokes them every time he gets hit because he is a gigantic baby

>>83838424
>everyone assblasted about Marey Sue
>no one brings up Han exiting hyperspace right after passing through Starkiller's shields

>>83843267
If Kylo had been training against TR-8R, the First Order would already rule the galaxy.

>>83843425
But having a lightsaber when nobody else does means you CAN'T fight anybody, you just murder them, there's no challenge which means you don't develop skills

>>83843409
>Until it's said otherwise, there's no reason to think that he wasn't training people before Kylo
Until it's said otherwise, there's no reason to think that he was training people before Kylo

>see I can do it too

>>83843379
Not him but I though Kylo WAS a child when this shit happened? Or am I remembering wrong? I thought Luke started training him (along with other kids) and shortly after Kylo said fuck this and killed the other kids and ran away

Correct me if I'm wrong, though

>>83838424
VAGICHLORIANS !

>>83845504
He was not. This was the belief before but the canon timeline is that the Jedi massacre didn't happen until just 6 years before TFA. So Ben was 23, like Anakin when he fell.

>>83845452
The reason I said that is because I was trying to say that doing that was pointless and stupid. "MY theory is correct until they say otherwise!"

I'm just saying that it seems more logical that Kylo wasn't his first student than that he was.

Well that does change things. Did this info come from one of the comics?

>>83845792
If you're talking about the 6 years before TFA thing, it was from Bloodline. It's a canon novel that came out recently that had information given directly from Rian Johnson. Pablo Hidalgo, a canon keeper, also corroborated this timeline.

>>83845775
You need to work on your reading comprehension.

My whole argument was not to assume anything that we weren't told, either positive or negative. So we shouldn't assume that he did OR didn't train others before Kylo. When there is a lack of information/evidence, the default position is neutral.

>>83838656
>trained with a two meter staff with even weight distribution across its entire length
>somehow knows how to fight with a laser sword with a short handle and no weight in its blade

M A R Y
S
U
E

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>>83838424
So Ren could save her in another scene in another movie

>>83845847
That person was saying that until they say otherwise, obviously Kylo was Luke's first student. That's bullshit.

>>83845831
Is it worth reading? Is any of the canon non-film material worth reading? I've heard mostly negative things about it, but if it gives important backstory I might check it out.

Because she is Sheev's and Plagues' daughter. She is stronger with the force than Kylo.

>>83845889
I haven't read it but I've heard that Bloodline is decent. It's a Leia novel and it has a bunch of plot threads that will come up again in TLJ. Then there's the Aftermath series that also introduces things that will come up in TLJ, but I've heard it's a pretty shitty read.

>>83845884
Not first student, necessarily, but in the first group of students. At least that's how I read it. And unless we are given information that Luke had a group or groups of students before the one Kylo was in, we should assume that they were the only group because they are the only one we have been told about.

Unless there's some non-movie canon material that says otherwise that I don't know about.

>>83845895
I fuckin knew it, Sheev was a tranny the whole time!

>>83845950
The whole point was that someone automatically assumed that Kylo was only slaughtering children when the massacre happened. Someone argued otherwise and they tried to claim that until it's implied otherwise, it should be assumed that Kylo was Luke's first student and everybody else was much younger. Because....well, because nothing. Just because they said so.

I called bullshit on that line of reasoning and that stupid theory. And I still am.

>>83845851
whether the blade of a lightsaber has mass or not, it clearly has inertia, and thus has some feeling of "weight". Look at how Luke and Vader fight, it isn't fencing. They're working even when they aren't pressing their blades directly.

It's only the limp-wristed prequels that introduce the flicky weightless looking nonsense.

>>83845950
How you read it from what exactly? Nothing suggests that Kylo was even one of Luke's first students.

>>83838424
Well you see anon earlier in the movie it showed that rey was dropped off on a planet when she was like ten. So while kylo was out destroying jedi temples and fighting wars for the new order she was rubbing sand in her vagina.

This is revealed in the novel that by using the technique sandvagina one can access the sith apprentice killing powers luke apparently placed in her mind when she was ten. It also lets you mind trick people but thats a story for another time.

>>83845950
>but in the first group of students
Given Kylo's age, this makes the most sense. Doubly so given that it seems most likely to me that Luke would take some time to flesh out his understanding of things before starting his own school.

In fact, Kylo's age makes it more early than I personally would have thought/written. It's all still murky, though.

>>83846148
Not necessarily. Ben probably wasn't sent to Luke until he was older than most Padawans would be based on how Leia talks. He was probably a preteen. Luke could have easily established something by then.

>>83846181
Also keep in mind that it's been said by people like Pablo Hidalgo that Luke's school was more like a following/cult-ish thing than an actual academy. In fact, I think Pablo even said that he hesitated to call it an "academy". So Luke likely had people of all ages joining him and not just kids he trained from a young age.

>>83846148
Thank you, I'm glad somebody understands.

>>83846181
>Ben probably wasn't sent to Luke until he was older than most Padawans would be based on how Leia talks. He was probably a preteen.
Care to give actual evidence of this?

>>83846003
I think MSW said once that they saw a casting call that involved a bunch of lightsaber props and "late adolescents". So 18-20 year olds. If this is for the massacre, it sounds like most of them weren't children and were closer to Ben's age.

>>83846279
They tried to keep him around and then sent him to Luke later which is when Leia says she "lost" both Ben and Han. In Bloodline I think she also suggests she had Ben around for a while and talks about how he was as a kid. An older kid, since she talks about him running around and roughhousing with his friends. This doesn't suggest he was sent away at a very young age.

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>>83846311
>"late adolescents"
>So 18-20 year olds

>>83840791
uhh with fucking luke who trained him?!!!?!!?

>>83846417
Yes. I see nothing wrong with what I just said. Late adolescents are 18 to 20 year olds.

>>83846181
>>83846255
I'm aware, but my point still stands. Given the circumstances and time scale I doubt Luke had a bunch of seasoned Jedi followers and Kylo probably was among the first crop (in a broad sense, given that it may not have been a rigidly structured school as you point out) though maybe not the literal first. But who knows, we might find out that Luke just dove right in. That would be a disappointing development for his character, though.

>>83846279
Care to give evidence of Ben being a little kid when he was sent to Luke?

>>83846500
Ben was no doubt the most talented but the idea that it was him and a bunch of children and nobody older than him is stupid and has no basis.

>>83846381
>>83846311
>>83846279
>>83846255
>>83846181
>>83846148
>>83846033
>>83846003
https://www.quora.com/At-what-age-did-Ben-Solo-go-to-the-dark-side

Kylo Ren was born one year after the Battle of Endor (BE) which happened 4 years after the Battle of Yavin (BY). Meaning that Ben was born 5 years after the Battle of Yavin.

Han Solo died 34 years after the BY. This means that Ben was 29 or 30 during the Force Awakens.

We don’t know exactly when did the Destruction of Luke Skywalker's Jedi happened. We only know that it happened at least 24 years after BE. This means that Ben was at least 23 years old during the Jedi massacre.

Bloodline (novel) take place 6 years before the Force Awakens (= 24 years after the battle of Endor). And from indirect mentions Luke’s Jedi weren’t killed out yet. Meaning that by the time Ben was 23 years old, the Jedi were still alive.

However the problem is that we don’t know the time span from Ben’s turn to the Jedi massacre. However if we assume that these two events follow each other immediately then Ben turned to the dark side sometimes between 28 - 34 years after the battle of Yavin (between 23 and 30 years of age)

>>83838424
I'm still mad they had Kylo's first unmasking in front of the literally who Rey instead of in front of his father when Han told him he didn't need it.

>>83845867
What is with her face transition before the camera pans to Ren impaling the guy?
I've never noticed that before

>>83846544
I'd say we can assume that the massacre happened very, very shortly after Bloodline. It's heavily implied that discovering the truth about Vader had a part to play in Ben's turn and everyone has acted like Luke has been gone for quite a while.

Then again, Bloodline implies that Luke and Ben had been off the grid for quite a while before the events of that novel. Leia talks about not hearing from them in a long time. So who the fuck knows what was going on with them.

>>83846541
Good thing that's not what I'm saying then.

>>83838424
the force guides her actions in literally everything she does, since birth. that's the only reason she's still alive and found enough scrap to survive, shot the stormtroopers, beat kylo and all the other stuff that happened to her.

i feel kinda bad for her because she's not actually a person, she's just whatever the force needs her to be at any given point.

this is why luke is hiding on a planet like yoda did, they're redpilled on the force, and chose to live in exile rather than be forced to follow its will.

>>83846613
That's what the whole argument stemmed from.

>>83846623
Actually, isn't it implied that Jakku has some strange ability to block the Force? Or it dulls Force sense or something like that?

>>83846662
maybe, but im sure there are a billion things in star wars cannon/non-cannon/cannon that can explain everything either way.

>>83846707
I'm saying I don't think the Force was guiding her on Jakku. In fact, it kind of seems like the Force "found her" only after she left. But when it did find her, it definitely pushed her in a certain direction hard.

This is interesting because it suggests that Rey being on Jakku of all planets was very deliberate. That also happens to be a planet with some origin of the dark side that Palpatine was looking for.

>>83839330
>kylo ren was in tormoil
This is the silliest arguement and a great indication of how things sound better on script than they do in movie form. This is how the scene of kylo killing his dad is played out:
>composition of kylo and han on a bridge with a diagonal light highlighting the two for the viewer.
>kylo states that hes having trouble with the balance of the force and the ties of light and dark.
>han tries to bring kylo back to the light.
>kylo says he needs help and asks his father to help him.
>extremely obvious forboding music mixed with the visible dimming of the light showing the user kylo has chosen the darkside.
>he fucking stabs his father while soth music plays in the background and thanks him for allowing him to become a sith like grandpappy vader.
Theres no tormoil hes not distraught about it, the entire scene shows that he made the decision and is happy for it. Stop pretending that jj headcannon is showing us details that arent there.

>>83846791
honestly its not worth arguing about. the new star wars movies don't really stimulate the brain enough to bother.

so ill give you the benefit of the doubt, you're probably right.

>>83846971
Here's how that scene reads to everyone else: Kylo's conflicted between wanting to be a Vader-like badass and still having feelings for his family. He thinks if he kills his dad that'll end his attachment and get rid of his conflicting emotions. What it's clearly going to do is make him more guilty which will build to his turn in the later movies. He didn't make a clear-headed robotic choice. He pretty much had to get his dad into position so that killing him just took the press of a button to switch on his saber.

how about this?
>ren is wounded and killed his dad
>rey is moderately well trained already
listening to you losers argue about a fantasy movie is getting more ridiculous than the jamacian accents i assume you all have

>>83847156
>these things will happen in sequels because I want to justify a plothole.
As I said, to most people who can follow a scene that entire sequence is him CHOOSING thr darkside, aka being evil. The ominous music is not playing because hes still on he edge, the light literally fading out to represent his turn to he darkside is not some middle ground.

There is no 'emotional turmoil' going on about him stabbing his dad because he made his choice. TFA fanboys just want to come up with headcannon to give reason for why he lost the fight. Emotional distress was not one of them.

>>83847676
Or maybe you're just autistic.

>>83840886
>>83840936
>>83841766
>>83840991
the damage control shilling is real

>>83841685
You're a retard. Luke never once used any force ability other than what the old man showed him, allowing the force to tell you when to avoid danger. Luke used the same ability, allowing the Force to tell him when to pull the trigger. The homing missiles did the rest. Were it Rey though, she would have defeated Vader become a force ghost by sheer will and bring Obi wan back to life then collapse the Death Star into a black hole using a newly created ability Force singularity . She's that retarded of a protagonist.

>>83841747
Rey defeated Kylo because JJ's a hack as is Kathleen Kennedy. Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke but when Luke pissed him off Vader took his hand. There's nothing you can say to defend this bullshit character.

>>83840886
Luke didn't go from Noob to Jedi in a few hours you insufferable fucking idiot! It took him years. The time between ANH and ESB is literally years as is the time between ESB And ROJ, almost two years. You're a retarded stinking Disney Shill and I despise you!

>>83840936
/thread your retarded ass you insufferable Shill!

>>83841766
You stinking nasty piece of shit Shill, Anakin spent years racing pods and wrecked every pod he was in. He used force Sense the very same ability Luke used, The force told him about the oncoming danger and he avoided it. And even with Force sense, you piece of shit subhuman shit shill, he had wrecked Every pod he raced in and had never finished a race. The events at the end of the movie was him being taken to battle via remote and avoided danger because the Controls of The Fighter was equivalent to the Pod's controls. But Rey, the insufferable Mary Sue Bitch, can fly the falcon, a Custom made freighter that has dozens of levers and buttons. Luke A trained pilot and one who was with his friend biggs had tried out for the academy and both were incidentally accomplished pilots, and its controls confused Luke. Mary Sue Bitch flies it expertly in two minutes.

>>83845867
what is this

She could defeat him because J. J. Abrams is a terrible, terrible film maker.

>>83838543
So why not just have him concede defeat and retreat after that if it was so significant? Why even bother having the fight scene if it was basically just Rey beating up on a guy who'd already been taken out of action? Doesn't seem very heroic.

>>83838656
Wasn't he the one who murdered all of Luke's other students? I guess he just shot them with a blaster, strange choice for a force user with a lightsaber.

>>83838823
When did Luke ever have a force awakening? He just barely avoids getting killed in the first movie thanks to Han Solo, he gets his fucking ass kicked in the second and only survives because the guy he was fighting was his dad who obviously didn't want to kill him and in the third the emperor kicks his ass and once again luke has to get saved by someone else, this time his father. Luke was never a particularly powerful character now I think of it.

>>83839578
I think a better option is to pick the ones you actually like and ignore the rest, the series has changed so much over the years between it's various incarnations it's stupid to act like it's some kind of cohesive whole. Why else do you think the first Disney one was a god damn reboot in everything but name?

>>83838656
Bullshit, if this were true, he could pulled the saber out of finn's hands easily, because Finn doesn't even have force powers and lacks the discipline to use a saber properly.

>>83843192
he used a bowcaster retard

they even go out of the way to demonstrate how powerful it is

>>83842154
Yeah the problem with Rey isn't any individual thing she did, it's the fact she did ALL of them. Luke does ONE thing in his first appearance that was miraculous, and even then he could've conceivably done it just thanks to blink luck. While with Rey she does something miraculous every time the plot demands it.

>we need to escape in this spaceship we've never seen before from trained imperial pilots in tie fighters
>it's alright I'm an expert pilot of this ship who can outfly them despite the fact I've probably never even flown a spaceship before

>We need to escape from this starkiller base where we're being held prisoner
>it's alright I can just spontaneously develop the ability to control people's minds despite having no training in how to use my force powers

>we're being attacked by a lightsaber wielding force user!
>it's alright I can defeat them despite having never used a lightsaber before

PICK ONE ABRAMS

It's called feminism or "girl power". It's a phenomenon that gives you instantly a whole set of mastered skills without having to work for it.

>>83838424
Rey used the force like Luke used the force to blow up the deathstar. Simple as that. RPG power level stuff is for nerds.

>kylo just got shot in the gut by a weapon that can send a grown-ass man that's covered in armor flying a few feet

>kylo just killed his father, causing some form of trauma

>rey's a competent fighter in her own right


And people still question how Kylo lost?

I mean, there's plenty of bullshit scenes in TFA (Rey pulling a mind trick out of her ass), but this ain't one of 'em.

>>83838656
How was this his first melee fight when he destroyed that jedi temple?