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>FGM Is The Handmaid's Tale a subtle redpill on Islam?

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Thread images: 32

>FGM

Is The Handmaid's Tale a subtle redpill on Islam?
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>>82179310
I read the book. It's irrelevant. I'm talking about the tv show.
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>>82179253
She is not aging well.
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I love going to the AV Club and reading the comments. All those triggered feminists.
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>>82179253
RORY LOOKS LIKE THAT
>>
does that mean she would enjoy my pusy lickings less?
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>>82179360
see >>82179322

i disagree
>>
feminism does nothing to liberate the talk about psychological violence on men from women

feminism does nothing to liberate the talk of raped men inside a household

feminism favorizes the abortion whithout even the requirement to inform the father

feminism does nothing against coerced paternity

feminism does nothing about the inequality favouring women on the dating game

feminists actually do not promote intellectual independence as a men is considered a sexist scumbag as soon as he disagrees with them or even try to nuance their positions

do you still believe that the feminists fight for equality ?
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This program is so important. THIS is why I hate conservatives. Fuck you Dad!
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>>82179322
did they cut off her clit?
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>>82179539
Uh, Feminism is about treating women -equally-. If you aren't a feminist then you're a misogynist, there's no other choice.
>>
is this show good? is it full of third wave feminist bullshit?
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>>82179658
also, does it portray straight white men as evil?
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>>82179253

Had to read the book in high school and I remember it being literal feminist propaganda.

How hard do they push the 'white patriarchy is evil' agenda in the show?
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When will you stop picking on poor Muslims who are 90% inbred and want to kill everyone including themselves.
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Why do they pronounce it Off-red?
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>>82179838
>>82179475
>Islam
The show is about christianity right?
How will these babies watching this show and overreacting in the comments sections understand that its islam.
All this does is reaffirm their belief that islam is good, christianity is bad.
>>
Alexis Bledel is looking pretty rough these days
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>>82180034
makeup is haram in gilead , only appears in flashbacks in the show .
this means that this may be one of the only tv shows ever made where you can actually see the women's faces .

also they ruined serena joy, she's opposed to be the meh looking 40\50 yearold barren wife that resents the young hot handmaid but in the show she looks 5 times better then offed.
>>
It's like no one on /tv/ has ever heard of Margaret Atwood.
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I love Aunt Lydia. She's so righteous.
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>>82180139
I never saw the big deal over Yvonne's looks, she's average in Hollywood standards in my opinion.
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>>82180074
>Probably retarded
Im pretty sure all the girls praising the show in the comments of The A.V club with their walls of text are still probably retarded then
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>>82179986
gilead's religion is not one which exists in reality. atwood saw some theocratic anti egalitarian societies at the time and saw that religious movements that push for them exist everywhere . she set the book in the US because the audience needed to relate to the pre coup culture\society which would be harder if the story was set in iran of afghanistan.

and yea there is no meaningful difference between religions , the holidays are on different days and the aesthetic is different but the fundamental stuff is pretty much the same, religions are interchangeable.
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>>82179367
lel
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>>82180185
too young to play serena , especially if offred is meh\pretty bad looking .
would work if they switched the offred\ofglen actresses
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>>82180283
what the fuck is he talking about
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>>82180283
Words cannot express how much I fucking love liberals
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>>82180387
she wasnt alone tho, the martha was with her
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>>82180259
>>82180250
People in those comments section are really likening fundamentalist theocratic societies to trump nigga what.

Does my fucking nut in
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Why were a bunch of post wall women chosen to be play the roles of the last fertile women left in America?

Does the casting director realize how hard it is for a 35-40 year old woman to get pregnant?
>>
Where can I watch this is it on Netflix?
Worth watching or just standard amerishit tripe
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>>82180283
that's hilarious
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>>82180417
She was tribbing with the Martha, the aproned woman.
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>>82180455
The whole handmaid thing was a sham anyway. It's the men who were sterile and they knew it.
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>>82180259
>there is no meaningful difference between religions
Wut
>>
The liberals who are saying this is a timely commentary on "Trump's" America don't realize that this story is literally based upon Islamic fundamentalism. If their stupidity wasn't so sad, it would be funny.

It's almost as bad as comparing 1984 to Trump.
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>>82180420
americans are retarded dude, they are literally incapable of considering any idea without trying to shove it into some political context or some political context into it.
>>82180455
most of them are young, ofglen\offred were relatively old and selected specifically because there was a record of them already having children post-plague so they are the first people the government went after for handmaids .
>>82180497
not really , they check all the women and have the handmaids checked by a doctor all the time so im assuming its they can diagnose whatever causes it and that's how they select handmaids so the majority of the women are sterile, as concluded even by normal doctors before the coup.
they do completely ignore male sterility so the handmaids that get the sterile men sometimes get sperm from other men illegally . IIRC fred was sterile .
>>
>Handmaids tale
>Subtle

Since when?

Margarete Atwood dissed the shit out of feminism in Cat's Eye. She's hardly ever subtle.
>>
>>82180583

It'd be more in line with an America in which Ted Cruz and Mike Pence's will was completely fulfilled
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>>82180576
honestly 2017 americans remind me of stories my parents told me of soviet censorship. the censorship bureau had people whose job it was to analyze books\scripts\whatever and try really really fucking hard to interpret everything as being in some way pro\anti communism\russia\war\the party , even entirely character driven stories,comedic stories or scifi novels that has absolutely no political undertones whatsoever were often censored for years because some official didnt wanna let the book be published in fears that someone one day might find some anti communist interpretation of it and the official will be blamed .
americans today are the same ,they try to shove their president and his political allies into stories they have no place in or even compare him to people whose political views are the antithesis of everything their president has ever expressed (like the handmaid's tale for example)

i hate politics obsessed poeple.
>>
DAE literally Trump
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>>82180583
>based upon Islamic fundamentalism
This is obvious in just the first three chapters of the novel.

People blocking their ears and going lalala doesn't surprise me though.
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I think this show really captures what it's like for us now living in Dumpf's America tb qh fa m
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>tfw ull never find 2 women to roleplay commander\wife\handmaid with you
why live senpai
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>>82180583
>It's almost as bad as comparing 1984 to Trump.
Right after Obama's spyidency as well, they truly are beautiful creatures.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cinemas-1984-worldwide-screening-anti-donald-trump-protest-george-orwell-nineteen-eighty-four-a7665471.html
https://www.rt.com/usa/383501-theater-screen-1984-trump/
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>>82180259
>there is no meaningful difference between religions
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>>82179593
If that were true, men would have the ability to legally 'abort' their unborn children. Feminists want total control of childbirth and the ability to baby anchor.
That's not equality.
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>>82180455
Literally know a 40 year old woman who made a formal complaint against a doctor for saying she was to old to conceive. Apparently he was being sexist, she has friends in organised feminism who are advising her.

Its very sad really, its like she thinks if they uphold her complaint she'll be able to get pregnant.
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>>82181048
Men have the exact same right as women to get an abortion if they become pregnant. Unfortunately it's very rare for men to become pregnant
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>>82181295
I said legally, you cheeky cunt. As in, she wants to keep the baby and the man can legally sign away his rights as the father.
Mention that to a feminist and watch their mouth begin to foam at the thought. Suddenly "I didn't consent to pregnancy!!" becomes "It takes two to tango, you NEED to support the child!" etc etc.
Basically they say equality but only to the point where they don't lose the ability to tie down a successful male.
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Post more feminist retardation related to this show.
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>>82181553
Child support is a right due to the child, not the mother. This is why child support cannot be waived. The state has an obligation to protect the interests of minors; this is why in custody battles, minors are appointed a guardian ad litem.

It's paranoia to think that women are running around trying to get pregnant just so they can get child support money.
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>>82179253

I only know this show by its premise, but that's enough to know that the title is inaccurate: all the handmaidens in the Bible who got pimped out (Sarah, Rebecca and Leah's handmaidens) were pimped out by their mistresses, not by any man.
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RUH ROH
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>>82181687
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>>82182023
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>>82179253
>author writes commentary on the iranian revolution
>HANDMAIDS TAIL IS BLUMFS AMERICA!!!!!
>let's import more awesome islam to stop frwumfy!!!
women are fucking idiots
>>
>>82182023
>>82182035
Kek where these from
>>
>>82182190
AV Club
>>
>>82182071
One of the reasons Atwood wrote the novel was to point out that fundamental Christianity is not all that different from fundamental Islam and that a Christian theocracy could happen in a country like the US. The books is an argument against the "it couldn't happen here" reactions to what happened in Iran and Afghanistan.
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>>82179598
>It's intended to purposefully rob the woman of sexual pleasure
what about anal?
>>
>>82179598
>It's intended to purposefully rob the woman of sexual pleasure.
implying male genital mutilation isn't the same

MUH FEMINSISM IS EQUALITY FOR BOTH MEN AND WOMEN
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>>82180583
>>82180807
self-centered americans
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>>82180840
That was probably your account anon.
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>>82182460
There's no Christian tradition of clitorodectomy

Or polygamy

Or marrying nine year olds

Or state execution of rape victims
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>>82181708
But how come a woman can decide if a child is born or not but a man cannot default on guardianship? You're a fool if you think women don't have a kid just to tie a decent man down.
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>>82183185
I believe Jesus even said that circumcision was stupid and unnecessary.
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I have not encountered a Christian under 40 in 7 years.
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>>82183389
>But how come a woman can decide if a child is born or not but a man cannot default on guardianship?
Basic human biology. If the child is born, then both the man and woman are financially responsible for it. If the child is not born, than neither are.

>You're a fool if you think women don't have a kid just to tie a decent man down.
They might, but it's rare. Don't let the echo chamber on whatever MRA subreddit you visit throw you. In any case, it's not something you have to worry about.
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>>82182023
>I should apologize to women for something that occurred in a movie.

Wew
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>>82183529
This isn't about biology. I'm not pro life. If anything I'm more pro choice because I think both parties should have an equal ability to relinquish any connection with the child. As of right now as a man either she aborts the baby with no say or she has it with no say. I don't mind the former, but give me an option to not have anything to do with the latter.
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>>82180139

it still works because despite her beauty she can't have children, she is barren. A younger, but "lesser" woman who can have children has to bring life she cannot
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>>82183440
Yeah he called for the circumcision of the heart not of the flesh. Saying all you have to do is believe in your heart that Christ is your savior and you are saved from an eternity in hell. He also said that if you think circumcision is a way to God then you have to follow all the old laws as well.
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Alexis aged poorly. When I saw her in the gilmore girls revival miniseries I cried. I couldn't believe my waifu from the 00's turned into this.
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>>82182553
>implying male genital mutilation isn't the same
this is true. ive had guys tell me straight faced that blowjobs dont feel that great and they all end up being cut
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>>82181978
Oh, no!
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Is FGM the most patrician fetish?
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>>82182023
>Sgt. Schlomo
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>>82179310
The author was inspired to write it after visiting Afghanistan
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>>82184077
bro that's kinda gay
>>
I sure love the meme that islam is oppressing women
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>>82183440
>>82184023
That wasn't Jesus, it was Paul.
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>>82184440
no, it was ringo
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>>82184282
I'm sure your mom loves wearing that Niqab when it's 120 degrees outside, Abdul
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>>82183499
Where do you live?
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>>82183499
you'd need to leave the basement for that
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>>82185219
Texas.
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>>82184282
l
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>>82183903
true and i hate to say yvonne portrays her well otherwise .
i guess i just imagined offred as better looking when i read the book and later when i listened to the claire danes narrated audiobook (which by the way is a 10/10 narration and the best one i've ever heard by far).

i was worried they'd fuck up the wierd fucking/birth scenes with the wife holding the handmaid but they were even better then i expected desu.

>>82184055
she looks pretty good in the show,she's also now allowed makeup so its probably the first time her face really appears anywhere.
>>
>>82185663
Do people really expect to win people over to their political camp with propaganda that not only exploits an image of a dead woman but makes an edgy joke about it?

What's the target audience, 'I wear black to match my soul' teens who fap to school shootings?
>>
>>82184077
maybe if you get circumcised very late. usually you get circumcised within like 2-3 days and it dosnt hurt sensation down there at all.
but you cant compare it to the female version , its by far worse and is specifically designed to make sex uncomfortable .
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>>82186138
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>>82184137
im dying life is satire
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>>82180259
Yeah Jesus went around beheading his enemies and fucking 9 year olds
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>>82180259
compare this to
>>82185219
I don't like real life anymore
>>
>>82182460
>and that a Christian theocracy could happen in a country like the US

Except what the movie protrays, at least, is fucking retarded. That could never happen in any Western society. You'd have to be a complete moron to believe that shit is plausible.
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>>82182460
with mass Muslim immigration to the west it really doesn't seem that far fetched
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>>82186224
>removal of 20,000 nerve endings
>keratinization of gland
>doesn't effect sensitivity
Okay, sure.
>>
>>82186271
Really answered my question, thanks.
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>>82184282
Yeah that Hijab is totally optional.
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>>82186606
>That could never happen in any Western society.

Not him but you are hilariously naive.
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>>82182460
Yeah I think Jesus said to kill all non believers
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>>82180583
I don't think anyone ever predicted anything like Trump, there's literally nothing for them to refer to.
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>>82186747
Male circumcision actually makes sex less pleasurable for the woman but has a negligible effect on perceived male pleasure.

See the O'neill & O'neill 1999 study of women who'd had both cut and uncut partners.
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>>82186271

>not calling them followers of abraham
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>>82179253
>>american brain power

kys son

its about christian americans and their fascist antchrist ways.
>>
>>82181708
>Child support is a right due to the child, not the mother. This is why child support cannot be waived. The state has an obligation to protect the interests of minors; this is why in custody battles, minors are appointed a guardian ad litem.

If this is the case then why is the amount of child support that has to be paid based on the father's income? Why do the children of wealthier fathers deserve more legally mandated support then the children of poorer fathers? If it's all about supporting the child it should just be a single fixed amount for any child, what you have now is just alimony under a different name.
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>>82187217
see
>>82186496
>>
>>82183529
>then both the man and woman are financially responsible for it
But why? It's the women who decided to have the child by bringing it to term rather then abort, why should the father be automatically obligated just because he agreed to have sex? Does agreeing to have sex mean you agree to raise a child? You just dodged the question entirely.

>muh MRAs
Oh I see you're a retarded feminist, nevermind.
>>
>>82186224
>but you cant compare it to the female version
I didn't realize it was a competition. Maybe parents could stop mutilating their children's genitals regardless of the child's sex, is that really such a zany idea?
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>>82187386
>It's the women who decided to have the child by bringing it to term rather then abort
And it was the men who decided to fuck them with no protection.
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>>82187536
It was the woman who decided to get fucked by a man not wearing any protection. Also

>what are contraceptive pills
>what are abortions
>>
>>82187092
I'm still skeptical about the male claim on terms of sensitivity, especially in a self report. But I have no counter sources. It seems odd for it not to have any effect, when removal of the foreskin leads to calluses to covet the glans,and there's also partial or complete removal of the frenulum, but I concede.
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>>82187593
Well they never get a chance to fuck before they lose their foreskin so they have nothing to compare to, all they ever half is their mutilated semi-functioning cocks to perceive the world with.
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>>82187642
*ever have
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>>82187070
President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho
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>>82187740
Fair dues, forgot him.
>>
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>>82187593
>partial or complete removal of the frenulum
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>>82185219
There's not one clit in this picture.
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>>82179253
>Is The Handmaid's Tale a subtle redpill on Islam?

If it is, that's the only subtle thing about it.
>>
If you aren't a feminist, you're a bigot.

I'm a feminist.
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>>82187994
If you kill them ... they win.
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>>82187994
>If you're a feminist, you're a bigot.
FTFY
>>
>>82187593
babies have incredible neuroplasticity. You can remove half their brain with no ill effect.
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>>82187994
Nothing more pathetic than a male feminist.
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>>82188069
How's that working out for you?
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>>82187469
>stop mutilating their children's genitals
but Muslims & Jews couldn't live under such tyranny!
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>>82188135
>>82188035
nothing more cringey than this faggot.

I'm a male feminist. But then again I enjoy doing sex stuff with women so maybe I'm biased.
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>>82186917
Funny, I'd say the same about you.
>>
>>82185469
You live in Texas and have never met a Mexican?
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>>82179310
fpbp
>>
>>82188311
Not the same guy dumbass.
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>>82188168
I get my dick wet. My cut dick shot cum all over some tinder girl's tits 7 hours ago. She likes my dick. So I'm content.
>>
>>82180583
this
>>
I've been seeing this show shilled the past few days heavily.

Is it good? I don't really want to make an account on hulu to watch unless it is.
>>
>>82182553
>implying male genital mutilation isn't the same
Try telling that to the indoctrinated Amerisharts and Muslims. Following millenia old desert Jew tradition just because it's in their culture. Sandniggers used to get their foreskin cut because they washed twice a year. Nobody living in the civilized world has that excuse.

Doing any sort of medically unnecessary surgery on a minor should be outlawed. Any 18 year old moron should be able to get their dick mutilated if they want after that.
>>
>>82179253
No. The novel was written as a response to the rise of fundamentalist Christianity during the Reagan presidency.
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>>82183529

I went to college with a vapid girl who had a boyfriend who cheated on her several times, she ended up getting pregnant by him in an effort to stop him from leaving her

he still did

fuck she was dumb
>>
>>82183440
>I believe Jesus even said
We don't know anything that Jesus said for sure because it was all compiled hundreds of years after he died.
>>
>>82188826
I guess that's not entirely relevant compared to the "canon" books that the believers support, as in Jesus never gets recorded doing shit like that but another Prophet who is widely idolized as "the ideal man all others must aspire to" is proudly documented by his own beloved supporters as fucking little girls and personally cutting people's heads off
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>>82188879
DAE HATE ISLAME
>>
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>>82189000
fuck your trips desu
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>>82189047
That's a pretty cool They Live sequel
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>>82189000
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>>82179322
why make them christian if only muslims cut off womens clits?
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>>82187968
leled
>>
>>82189262
because the book wanted a western setting.
Same as all those who complain about Ghost in the shell.

Although you wont hear the shitwashing comments this time
>>
>>82188747
You need to lurk more.
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>>82186224
Did somebody tell you this?
>>
>>82187536
LMAO. If a chick is actually into you, they are ALWAYS the ones pushing for no-condom sex.
>>
Why is Nick so handsome?
>>
>>82179253
>subtle
WTF? I hate reading stuff now!
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>>82189262
The book was written in 1985 and the target audience really didn't know how savage muslims are. They were just some funny cult halfway across the world who sometimes hijacked planes and bombed Israel.

And the cult described in the book isn't really Christian, they're some cult that loosely used Christianity as a base, like the Branch Davidians or Mormons..
>>
would removal of the clit not help stem the degenerate modern day attitude of casual sex and infidelity?
>>
>>82191850
Nonsense, it's literally Trump's America.
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>>82182206
Of course.
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>>82180319
Aren't black people living in reservations in the book?
>>
this is jew pushing there current narrative right?
i didnt look twice after trailer
>>
>>82186224
>but you cant compare it to the female version
pray tell, how is FGM Type 1a different from male foreskin-amputation?
>>
>redpilling women

fat chance. they love being abused thats why they shlick off to 50 shades

they just want to be used like cattle by arabs, women arent human beings
>>
>>82186224
Like some anon once said.
The foreskin isnt the wrapper, its the candy.
>>
>>82181048
no the point is that the child does not actually exist until a (semi arbitrary) date, and the woman aborting it is not much more morally wrong that scratching yourself
>>
>>82195030
If a woman wants to kill her offspring, should we stop them?

Are those genes we really want in the pool?
>>
>>82192197

Trump's America in 1985 was Atlantic City and Las Vegas.
>>
>>82179593
>Islam is about treating women -equally-. If you aren't a Muslim then you're a misogynist, there's no other choice
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>>82195030
>still making this about biology.
I don't care when a fetus is classified as a child or not. The point is a woman picks whether it becomes a child or if it becomes a panty stain. And if she picks child, why does the man instantly go from 'guy I had sex with' to 'support for another human being for 18 years'?

If women can hold up signs that scream 'sex isn't consent for pregnancy' then men should have the same right before the child is born. I sign a paper that says I absolve any and all right to guardianship for the child and that's that.
>>
what is this show about?
>>
>>82196728
The state makes the laws and the state doesn't want to pay for your bastard child.

It's not about right and wrong, it's about money. Child support is an easy tax to levy; not many politicians will feel sorry or spend political capital for "deadbeat" dads.
>>
>>82196936
>woman decides she's not financially ready to have a child
>abort
>man decides he's not financially ready to have a child.
>too bad, she decided for you.
>>
>>82196885
It's some woman's fantasy about a fanatical theocracy taking over the US after a plague causes mass infertility.

Fertile women are forced to become sex slaves for rich men and are forced to have their children. These enslaved women also have their genitals mutilated by the state.

It's basically what would happen if an African Islamic State would take over the US but the author framed the zealots as some sort of Christian sect.
>>
>>82197142
hmm. So failed at being relevant or is it some elaborate satire?
>>
>>82197362
It's a reboot of a 1985 novel and 1990 movie.
>>
>>82197362
It's tiptoeing around the dangers of allying with fundamentalist nutballs (aka, the left and their love affair with islam) while forgetting that the left are so indoctrinated that they only see their own political agenda reflected back (Trump's America)
>>
I read the book years ago but I don't remember the handmaidens having FGM

one thing I remember the most at the end was the commentary on academia since the frame turns to the events of the story being presented as someone's conference paper or something, hundreds of years later, though it's obvious they got a lot of details wrong

it's a pretty good book though I've no opinion on the series as I haven;t watched it. thank you for reading my post.
>>
>>82197453
Just sounds too exaggerated to take at face value
>>
not, its a bluepill

islam is the true redpill, inshallah
>>
> WAAA MY FGM IN FIRST WORLD COUNTRIES!

Meanwhile MGM and sucking on a bloody baby penis is a-OK here. MGM and FGM is prevalent in the culture of many 3rd world countries. Literally can't take feminism in the west seriously over it's complete silence over this shit.
>>
>>82197810
Don't separate the two; they are the same.

It's Genital Mutilation; don't put a gender to it.
>>
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109KB, 934x615px
>>82193277
It's natural selection in action.

>woman is loyal and honorable
>her man is killed
>his killer tries to fuck her
>she fights back or spts in is face
>she is also killed
>she is a genetic failure

>woman is a whore
>her man is killed
>she happily fucks the guy that killed her man
>she is genetically successful

Couple thousand years of that sort of thing happening all over the world and women end up with a massive internal instinct for betrayal. Darwinism rewarded it.
>>
File: 1489199430525.gif (3MB, 240x180px) Image search: [Google]
1489199430525.gif
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>>82179253
HOW DO YOU FUCKS NOT GET THIS

A big part of the the story is a wake-up call to feminists, women, and people living in the Western World.

Shit like this happens people every single day. The reader/audience cares because this is happening in THEIR world, now. So every horrifying thing hits home.

And yeah, stuff like this COULD happen in your country. Not without something crazy, but it could happen. Think about how Russia, Iran and Germany changed quickly and suddenly with new regimes and governments. It WON'T happen, but if something spectacularly fucks up, it could.

So yeah. Wake up, watch out. Shit like this happens around the world and even in the Western world in small communities and abused women. It needs to be actively fought against.

(Also I'm totally borrowing ideas from this shit to put into my D&D RPG game.)
>>
>>82199121
Roll a 20 to win your own handmaiden.
>>
>>82197109
Maybe he shouldn't have fucked some skank eh?
>>
>>82180583
Riddle me this: does the show more closely resemble the futire liberals want or the one hard right fundies want?
>>
>>82199628
tbf it was almost impossible not to
>>
>>82187994
I'm an equal opportunity ass-kicker
>>
>>82199628
If you had a chance to lock a decent guy into your life, you'd take it if you have no moral compass too.
>>
>>82179593
Treating people -equally- based on vagina is retarded.
Equality of opportunity > Equality of outcome.

>but muh Egalitarianism
Fuck off, people just are (of) different (quality), if they weren't then why do we need job interviews? Wasn't everyone the equal in the first place? Why is there a need for differentiation? Oh wait, people aren't 100% equal and some people are better than others.

inb4 bait
>>
>>82199822
>everyone's Muslim
liberals
>>
rrweqwwq
>>
>>82186917
There are people who would advocate for state-mandated gfs to save the white race from white genocide on this site right now. There are people on this site right now that are so triggered by the presence of an atheist character thay they make constant Reddit and Memey threads on here for weeks on end. Try to imagine a society were /pol/ truly wad in the driver's seat. We already know they've lost all sense of self-awareness and are sincerely self-righteous at this point. Imagine a society where /pol/ truly was fully in the driver's seat, had real power with no real opposition. It'd probably not be the same as The Handmaiden's Tale, but there would probably be some similarities
>>
>>82197142
>These enslaved women also have their genitals mutilated by the state.
under what justification?
>>
>>82189262
Christians in South Sudan and Ethiopia do it too. It's an North-East African thing.
>>
>>82203048
>Try to imagine a society were /pol/ truly wad in the driver's seat.
Most of /pol/ is too NEET to drive themselves.
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