What was the moral of the story?

>>81205989
that racism is an endless cycle and will never go away, evidenced by edward furlong getting killed by a nigger even though he tried to "erase racism"

should have ended with norton looking at himself in the mirror, slowly shaving his head

Niggers and whites can be pathetic people

File: SeanConneryJune08.jpg (306KB, 524x595px) Image search: [Google]

306KB, 524x595px

That being racist will get you butt raped in prison.

>>81206063
>should have ended with norton looking at himself in the mirror, slowly shaving his head
That's the original ending btw for those who don't know

A black man reviewing the movie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWi1HinHI5Y

>>81206219
Not surprised they changed it. People definitely would have read that the wrong way

>>81205989
If you are racist, you see life in white and black
>tfw you just got this

>>81205989
Never under any circumstances trust niggers.

>>81206352
>realizing that niggers cannot, in fact, be reasoned with or changed
>wrong way

>>81206179
he actually got butt raped for denouncing racism

>>81205989
>What was the moral of the story?

murrica is a multiculti shithole

File: 1490338445035.png (467KB, 800x800px) Image search: [Google]

467KB, 800x800px

That you're a stupid neckbeard who doesn't understand subtlety.

>>81205989
>His feature film debut was American History X (1998), a drama about racism starring Edward Norton and Edward Furlong. Kaye disowned the final cut of the film, as he did not approve of its quality.[2] He unsuccessfully attempted to have his name removed from the credits.[3][4] The final cut was critically lauded and Norton was nominated for the Academy Award for Best Actor for his performance in the film.

>The battle over artistic control of the film, which has become part of Hollywood folklore, all but destroyed Kaye's career. He delivered his original cut on time and within budget - but when the producer, New Line Cinema, insisted on changes, the arguments began.

>The debate quickly escalated. Kaye spent $100,000 of his own money to take out 35 full-page ads in the Hollywood trade press denouncing Norton and the producer, using quotations from a variety of people from John Lennon to Abraham Lincoln. He attended a meeting at New Line to which (to ease negotiations) he brought a Catholic priest, a rabbi and a Tibetan monk. When the company offered him an additional eight weeks to re-cut the film, he said he'd discovered a new vision and needed a year to remake it, and flew to the Caribbean to have the script rewritten by the poet Derek Walcott. Finally, when the Directors Guild refused to let him remove his name from the New Line version, he demanded it be credited to 'Humpty Dumpty' instead and filed a $200 million lawsuit when it refused

Was it autism?

>>81205989
You cant truly call yourself nazi if you cannot enjoy a good white cock

File: 1490737123275.jpg (19KB, 241x241px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 241x241px

>>81206481
Literally what the fuck

That fat kid from Boy Meets World had quite the extensive career desu.

>>81205989
Your eyes will see the glory of the trampling at the zoo.

>>81205989
If he hadn't curb stomped him he wouldn't have gone to prison.

File: ed.jpg (26KB, 500x250px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 500x250px

>>81205989
the moral was that Norton is one of the most talented actors ever, why is he so underrated?

Around blacks never relax.

File: 1491049709179.jpg (25KB, 641x530px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 641x530px

>>81206481

File: norton.jpg (96KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

96KB, 1280x720px

>>81207239

>>81205989
that Edward Norton always gets his way and will threaten to quit a movie mid-production if the director doesn't change the ending to Edward's liking

>>81207239
I love his movies. He hasnt been in anything in a long time. At least nothing ive heard of.

File: Edward-Norton-as-Derek-Vinyard-american-history-x-38821306-1280-720.jpg (72KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

72KB, 1280x720px

look at his face here, spooky stuff

File: 1417293811190.png (265KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

265KB, 640x480px

>>81206481
why

>>81207439
Birdman?

>>81206481

he enjoyed being nazi too much and felt chronically guilty

>>81206481
he's making a documentary about it

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6049328/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_1

>>81206375
Holy shit.

Also having buttsecks in prison is not gay.

>>81207460
thats the look he makes when he turns to his brother and he knew he fucked up. maybe he shouldnt have curb stomped that nigger

are there only autists on this board who dont understand facial expressions? i see this shit everyday

>>81207388
that scene was hard to watch

>>81205989

This movie turned me into an altright.

>>81207724
You see people making >mfw turns to his brother and he knew he fucked up. maybe he shouldnt have curb stomped that nigger everyday?

>>81207786
what a reddit response

yes

File: dindu.jpg (153KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

153KB, 1280x720px

>>81206481
he made a great job anyways

>>81207724
it's a pretty subtle, restrained expression (probably because of the cops everywhere) that could mean a lot of things depending on the context. You say he knows he fucked up, then why is he smirking? Maybe he's not thinking that he fucked up, maybe he's looking at his bro like "Fuck yeah, you see that? Niggers get what they deserve. WORTH IT!"

File: Libtards think this is okay.webm (680KB, 720x1280px) Image search: [Google]

680KB, 720x1280px

this movie should be a mandatory viewing in american schools

>>81205989
Don't relax.

>>81207903
>"Fuck yeah, you see that? Niggers get what they deserve. WORTH IT!"
yeah, thats the impression i got too

>>81205989
edward furlong pretty much spoon feeds you the moral of the story at the end of the movie. "hate is baggage" etc etc.

i still hate blacks though kek

>>81207950

but you can only discard that baggage if you discard the nigger

>>81207950
>edward furlong pretty much spoon feeds you the moral of the story at the end of the movie. "hate is baggage" etc etc.

>Furlong's character at beginning of movie: You gotta stick up for yourself
>Keeps thugs in check
>Causes butthurt from (((educators)))
>Furlong's character at end of movie: hate is baggage.
>pleases (((educators))
>lets down guard
>gets killed

Really makes you think.

The deceased dad failed to secure a future for his children.

File: mpgfvg5qsq[1].jpg (150KB, 885x1233px) Image search: [Google]

150KB, 885x1233px

>>81207903
his smirk quickly fades away to a look of desperation once the reality sets in as the cops drag him away

>>81208069
>missing the point of the film
>in 2017

Yikes.

>>81205989

racism never wins

>>81205989
If you save a kid from being bullied by some dumb savage, he will shoot you dead for no reason.

endless cycle of racism and violence or something. film was supposed to end with norton shaving his head again and going back to his nazi ways but that was too "racissssss" for norton and he protested until the ending was changed.

>>81207904
>that webm
>americans
Hahahaha fucking faggots. You can thank you lazy ass slave owning ancestors for that lmao

>>81208175
if it wasnt because he is such a great actor i would call him a cuck

File: LeBasketBall2.png (635KB, 500x700px) Image search: [Google]

635KB, 500x700px

>>81205989
The moral of the story was
Whites can also play Basketball too

>>81208242
that scene is lowkey kino

>>81205989
Hatred begets hatred.

And whatever you are thinking you are doing on behalf of your "race", won't solve anything.

Cooperation is more beneficial to all sides, than ongoing generational conflict.

I love this movie for that sentiment, but I honestly believe most see a different POV, or really choose to.

I saw this unfold full-scale, beyond any present "warfare" in the states.

Conflict nets superficial gains, with more debt than bounty in all reality.

File: Old white faggot gets HEEM'd.webm (988KB, 320x240px) Image search: [Google]

988KB, 320x240px

>>81208212
>w-white genocide isn't real you g-guys
kek

>>81208267
It was a scene that defied the impossible

>>81208113
>not rejecting the point of the film when the moral seems poorly grafted onto the action it depicts

>>81208292
All your videos prove is that americans are violent savages. The world already knows this.

>>81205989
No matter how delicious a curb looks, do not try to eat it.

>>81208069
>he let his guard down
It's not like being a nazi would have given him spidey senses or psychic abilities to predict he would be shot in a fucking high school bathroom. He probably realized that a public school is not an ideal place to stage an assassination if the shooter actually wants to get away, and didn't think the nig who shot him would be so reckless as to try it in the bathroom

>>81208321
>rejecting the point of the film because it doesn't unilaterally attribute the blame to just one character/event

ewe

>>81208447
You really are stupid.
>guy has enemies at school because he is white
>guy is the brother of a violent criminal who loves committing hate crimes
>guy associates with group of criminals who would fucking love to have an excuse to kill black people
>guy and his brother disassociate from the group
>enemy at school figures out that guy no longer has friends who will avenge his death
>enemy realizes he can kill him with minimal consequences
Whether you feel hate or not, you're a target.

>>81205989
is this what white """""people"""" consider fit?

>>81208175
why even sign up to do the movie then?
>yeah i like the role but can we change the message to the exact opposite?

Speaking of Ed Norton, any of you guys watched The Illusionist? I like it a lot.

>>81208710
>Ok Ed whatever you say
>Digitally create the final sequence

>>81208680
>fit is only muh 300lbs muscle men pumped full of shit
I hate the gym crowd fucking kill yourself nigger

>>81205989
white supremacists are dumb

>>81208628

Are you kidding?
The black kid shot him purely because he made a fool of him when he was bullying the nerd at the beginning of the movie.

That was his sole motivation, because that's how high school shit works, especially with black kids.

>>81208628
So he can just shoot somebody in the middle of a high school bathroom and expect to get away with it? What about getting fucking caught and going to prison for murder? Just because you don't have people who will avenge your death anymore doesn't mean you should think someone will try and assassinate you in between classes. Maybe after school, yeah...

>>81208938
He's a juvenile. He'll be out in 4 years tops.

>>81208894
>white supremacist

Kind of an oxymoron, no?

>>81208931
>The black kid shot him purely because he made a fool of him when he was bullying the nerd at the beginning of the movie.
>missing (or possibly ignoring) the scene where the black gang member is seen talking and grooming the black kid

You know, like Danny being indoctrinated by the skinheads. That being the entire point of the film?

>>81208931
>That was his sole motivation
yes
and until the film's protagonist foolishly became a pozzed faggot of love and coexistence there was a deterrent to keep him from acting on the motive.

>>81208938
adult black men shoot people in broad daylight and get out days later because no one comes forward as a witness

>>81208938
>So he can just shoot somebody in the middle of a high school bathroom and expect to get away with it?
He's a black teenager. It's not like he won't be going to jail in the near future anyway. One felony is as good as another.

>>81205989

https://www.rabb.it/r/7ej3zo

>>81208963
They make exceptions to this all the time, based on the circumstances. A lot of black kids who murder go to adult prisons because the judges and the courts hate them and see no chance of a short juvie sentence actually changing them.

>>81209038
Well he's not a man, he's a dumb kid, so he's not as much to be afraid of. And what about the teachers / faculty? Or other, non-black kids who were in the halls and heard the shots? They wouldn't report him?

>>81205989
What's the point of posting this thread at least once a day?

>>81208724
hmm not good but not bad, he has better movies

>>81209149
>They make exceptions to this all the time, based on the circumstances. A lot of black kids who murder go to adult prisons because the judges and the courts hate them and see no chance of a short juvie sentence actually changing them.
Well that's very heartwarming. Still not as good as him getting the chair though.

>>81209150
talk about a great movie

>>81205989
the moral of the story is to value the exception to the rule more than the rule itself

>>81209150
to complain about people you don't identify with

is that movie where Ryan Gosling plays a neo nazi any good?

File: the believer.jpg (155KB, 964x643px) Image search: [Google]

155KB, 964x643px

>>81209400
forgot pic

>>81209400
>>81209437
yes

very good

>>81207388
how could they've made him look so cucked in this scene and so badass in the following scenes? really great job jews

>>81208379
>All your videos prove is that niggers are violent savages. The world already knows this.

ftfy you stupid cuck

File: Kornheiser_Why1.jpg (33KB, 288x499px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 288x499px

>house door opens outwards
>mine opens inwards
>/k/ self-insert mentality ruined

File: tfw.jpg (84KB, 512x768px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 512x768px

how do i get that kind of body

>>81209524
>mine opens inwards
Are you trying to get robbed and killed?

>>81209504
>probably still collects his welfare check
great bantz, not cucked at all

>>81209012
Why would the black kid assume that Derek wouldn't want revenge for killing his brother, "reformed" or not? Anyone else in Derek's position would have gone straight back to being a hateful nazi if something like that happened to their family.

>>81209590
its better to have an inwards-opening door so someone on the outside cant just yank it open out of your hands, where you have to reach way outside to grab the handle and close it. If it opens inwards you can just slam it shut and brace

>>81209675
Derek alone is not as threatening a Derek no longer attached to a gang of homicidal nazis.

>>81209805
>Derek alone is not as threatening a Derek attached to a gang of homicidal nazis.
Sorry that should read as above.

>>81208292
Why do niggers have no respect for old people? Atleast with whites we have the decency to kill off people below senior level. This man went through to much shit to get socked as a bus driver by some kids that think he's the reason DEM WHITIES IS KILLIN OW HOMEBOIS

>>81209508


Yeah, because it's not like white americans do school shootings... oh wait


Americans are just violent people, the fact that Trump got elected, and gun ownership is so big proves that

>>81209400
Yea it's good

>>81205989
Racism is retarded and Nazis are pussy bitches. Still true today.

File: 1490333697382.jpg (275KB, 615x766px) Image search: [Google]

275KB, 615x766px

>>81210801
t. nigger

Niggers always nig no matter what bullshit revelation you have

>>81206063

what this guy said

>>81206352
>People definitely would have read that the wrong way
very true

File: racism.gif (851KB, 2970x2400px) Image search: [Google]

851KB, 2970x2400px

>>81210801
>Racism is retarded
Black inferiority is scientifically validated fact.

>>81206179
He got ass raped because he was being an autistic faggot who couldnt understand what the deal in prison really was and kept yapping like an autist.

>>81206352
>wrong way

Fuck off nigger lover

File: cry nigger cry lmao.png (75KB, 221x267px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 221x267px

guys

s-stop being racist

>>81205989
Don't trust niggers.

>>81205989
the holocaust wasn't real

File: flat,800x800,075,t.u2.jpg (110KB, 800x800px) Image search: [Google]

110KB, 800x800px

>>81209400
>>81209437
>>81209478
except he's a self-hating jew complete with all the neuroticism that comes with that
>>81209854
no empathy
>>81209990
i'd post the statistics proving otherwise, but you're either a cuck, a troll, or a jew, so it's a fruitless exercise.

>>81206481
what was his endgame?

racist fathers raise racist sons

Whites are superior

>>81206063
>that racism is an endless cycle and will never go away,
But its not a cycle
You just gotta exterminate the blacks

>>81205989
>go to prison
>get raped

File: 1415259287570.png (268KB, 499x499px) Image search: [Google]

268KB, 499x499px

>>81213315

>>81209400
Look, the Jews clearly control the media and the banks. Investment banks, not the commercial ones, but the point is, they carry out in those realms the exact same principles they display in sexuality.

They undermine traditional life and they deracinate society. Deracinate. Tear out the roots. A real people derives its genius from the land, from the sun, from the sea, from the soil. This is how they know themselves. But Jews don't even have soil.

>There's lsrael.

Yeah. Those aren't Jews.

>Of course they're Jews.

Notice the lsraelis. lt's a fundamentally secular society. They no longer need Judaism because they have soil. The real Jew is a wanderer. He's a nomad. He's got no roots and no attachments so he universalises everything. He can't hammer a nail or plough a field. All he can do is buy and sell and invest capital, manipulate markets and it's, like, all mental. He takes the life of a people rooted in soil and turns it into a cosmopolitan culture, based on books and numbers and ideas. You know, this is his strength. Take the greatest Jewish minds - Marx, Freud, Einstein. What have they given us? Communism, infantile sexuality and the atom bomb. ln the three centuries it's taken these people to emerge from the ghettos of Europe, they've ripped us out of a world of order and reason, thrown us into class warfare, irrational urges, relativity, into a world where the very existence of matter and meaning is in question! Why?! Cos it's the deepest impulse of a Jewish soul to pull at the very fabric of life till there's nothing left but a thread. They want nothing but nothingness. Nothingness without end.

>>81213784
wow, you're incredibly articulate

>>81207392
is that what happened??

File: 1421572763324.png (103KB, 624x434px) Image search: [Google]

103KB, 624x434px

>>81213784
This is extremely well put

FUCK NIGGERS

>>81206063
>>81210851
>>81213315
It amazes me that people like you can be this stupid. I know you're probably an underageb& but I know I didn't post shit this stupid when I was. The theme of the movie is literally LITERALLY spelled out in the ending monologue THAT VIOLENCE AND HATE CREATES VIOLENCE AND HATE.

If only you chucklefucks would go join a Neo-Nazi gang and see the results of your racewar masturbation fantasies. After seeing your friends die from blood feuds and getting assraped in prison after you continued your end of the circle of violence you'd realize what your retarded beliefs lead to LIKE THE FUCKING MOVIE SHOWS YOU. HOW CAN YOU BE THIS FUCKING STUPID AND THINK THE MOVIE GLORIFIES OR PROVES YOUR BELIEFS RIGHT?
>>81213784
There's no real arguments in your slew of pretentious, pseudo-intellectual psychobabble to even respond to. Stop jerking off and go read a book.
>>81214105
>>81214677
No he's not and no it's not. It's literally pretentious psychobabble with zero substance or facts. Hopefully when you all grow up you'll learn to stop being retarded before some cult leader orders you to your deaths.

Fuck, I wish moot deleted /pol/ when he had a chance, before underage retards from reddit made it even more fucking cancerous.

>>81205989

I fucking hate niggers so much.

>>81215174
No you don't. You hate the shitty life your parents have given you and the shitty society Capitalism has given you.

>>81215162
Calm down niggerlover

File: sort.jpg (29KB, 144x216px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 144x216px

>>81215240
>the shitty society Capitalism has given you
kill yourself

>>81207903
>Maybe he's not thinking that he fucked up, maybe he's looking at his bro like "Fuck yeah, you see that? Niggers get what they deserve. WORTH IT!"

Yeah, that's my reading of it. That he feels completely vindicated, especially on a second viewing when you know that the stuff he's yelling at the guy before stomping him is about his murdered father.

File: 1453204526555.png (1KB, 214x198px) Image search: [Google]

1KB, 214x198px

>>81215162

File: 1480156935102.jpg (108KB, 723x719px) Image search: [Google]

108KB, 723x719px

>>81215240

File: 1488303245233.jpg (17KB, 306x306px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 306x306px

>>81215240
>the shitty society Capitalism has given you.

>thinking we currently "live under" "capitalism"
We need to throw you people out of helicopters.

>>81215501
It's impossible to calm down when I see such blatant retardation and have to not only face the fact that these retards are not only shitting up my board but also they're becoming a presence in real life. Imagine if SJWs started invading and spewing their feels-based shit and people not only tolerated it but applauded and agreed with it. I don't need to imagine it because it's already happened.
>>81215504
>yes, please fuck me harder boss, you're a job creator and you deserve my boypussy
>I'll just blame all the shitty things you and your peers do on the Jews while pretending that the system is perfectly fine
>>81215592
If only I was a Jew, then I might be doing something with my life, or at least getting some laughs that retards on the internet think I control the world.

File: nayzeed.png (200KB, 700x700px) Image search: [Google]

200KB, 700x700px

>>81215162

File: socialismotism.gif (1MB, 800x667px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 800x667px

>>81215668

>>81215668
>>yes, please fuck me harder boss

>my boss is the reason everything sucks

lmao you people are so delusional, it's hilarious

you do realize the working class already consumes 99% of all consumer goods

there's NOTHING else you can get from them, they aren't exploiting you in any way

you have to come up with absurd theories like "surplus value" to pretend they're exploiting you
it has nothing to do with reality.

>that the system is perfectly fine
People that support freedom and free markets hate the current system and want a violent revolution against the central bankers that caused all this poverty.

>>81215651
>I unironically support a system that is against my benefit while worshiping a man who ruined his country for the benefit of plutocrats
>I call other people the cuckolds
>>81215666
So we don't live under Capitalism now, but the Capitalism under a CIA-installed dictatorship was True Capitalism?
>>81215672
>>81215678
This is just getting lazy and pathetic. At least respond with some autistic screeching.
>>81215710
>you do realize the working class already consumes 99% of all consumer goods
>consumerism is a measure of quality of life
>there's NOTHING else you can get from them, they aren't exploiting you in any way
There's more to Capitalism than worker exploitation.
>you have to come up with absurd theories like "surplus value" to pretend they're exploiting you
It's sad that you consume and repeat the propaganda of your oppressors like a housenigger saying he deserves to be a slave.
>People that support freedom and free markets hate the current system and want a violent revolution against the central bankers that caused all this poverty.
Markets aren't Capitalism. The bankers are just one aspect of Capitalism that makes things shit.

File: 1488348631500.gif (1MB, 217x217px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 217x217px

>>81206481
Thanks for the laugh, Anon

>>81215791
>So we don't live under Capitalism now, but the Capitalism under a CIA-installed dictatorship was True Capitalism?
Pinochet wasn't even close to a free market.
He did kill commies though and prevented chile from turning into Cuba, which is a very good thing.

File: gommunism.jpg (22KB, 480x335px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 480x335px

>>81215791
>At least respond with some autistic screeching.
why would i need to when you're already providing

File: 1490454293639.png (273KB, 793x794px) Image search: [Google]

273KB, 793x794px

>>81215791

>>81205989
that the white boi gets triggered by the dark smooth skin of a black man, just the very thought triggers white bois easily because they just know their own women just can't resist the long chocolatey cock that fills them so easily.

all white bois can do in response to that is violence

>>81215791
>it's a "commutard cant refute the fact that his shitty ideology has literally never worked at all so he pretends it isn't an argument" episode
getting old desu

>>81215791
>>consumerism is a measure of quality of life
LOL It LITERALLY is though.
Why do you think people work? To get goods and services(food, shelter, healthcare, entertainment etc).

99% of all production in the economy goes DIRECTLY to the working class.

What about this do you not understand? There' is literally no benefit whatsoever to workers taking over the means of production. Literally none.

>There's more to Capitalism than worker exploitation.
There is no worker exploitation and you people constantly struggle to prove it exists by changing the definition of value like retards.

>It's sad that you consume and repeat the propaganda of your oppressors
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
I think this way because I've researched these things on my own using facts and logic. Unlike you who worships literal dictators.

You're a person that LITERALLY wants the government to control every aspect of your life and thinks that eventually "the state will wither away".

Kill yourself you delusional manchild.

>Markets aren't Capitalism. The bankers are just one aspect of Capitalism that makes things shit.
Banking and bankers in a free market is a really good thing. Bankers in a central bank debt economy are evil parasites.
I bet you don't even know what central banks are.

>>81215858
>reddit spacing

File: 1486320438295.png (582KB, 1000x897px) Image search: [Google]

582KB, 1000x897px

>>81215841
Based image

>>81215791
>It's sad that you consume and repeat the propaganda of your oppressors like a housenigger saying he deserves to be a slave.
You don't make any sense.

People support free markets, support them because they don't want to slave away and have to work their entire lives. They want higher living standards and shorter working hours.

>>81215870
Who gives a shit?

>>81215815
>He did kill commies though and prevented chile from turning into Cuba, which is a very good thing.
>a dictator murdered political dissidents (commies) to prevent his country from turning into a dictatorship that murdered political dissidents (counter-revolutionaries)
Bravo Pinochet!
>>81215831
I shouldn't have to do all the work while you leach off me you fucking communist.
>>81215841
>pretending your movement hasn't been almost entirely coopted by white nationalists and fascists
It'd be funny if it wasn't sad.
>>81215852
>le marxism-leninism is communism and the only type of communism
>>81215858
>Why do you think people work?
To survive, beyond that to engage in hedonistic and escapist behaviors to distract from their shitty life under Capitalism. 4chan is the most radical example of how far people engage in escapism and mass media to forget about their shitty lives.
>99% of all production in the economy goes DIRECTLY to the working class.
Yes, it'd make sense that the majority of people consume the majority of products. You're forgetting how the majority of wealth goes to the 1%, you use your terminology.
>There' is literally no benefit whatsoever to workers taking over the means of production
Being able to control their life; not having someone leach off them. That's two.
>There is no worker exploitation and you people constantly struggle to prove it exists by changing the definition of value like retards.
No idea what you're talking about with "changing the definition of value". Profits cannot be explained without exploitation; simply owning property without ever having worked for it or even maintain gives you wealth; where does that wealth come from?
>I think this way because I've researched these things on my own using facts and logic. Unlike you who worships literal dictators.
I use to be an ancap, desu. And no, I don't worship dictators or their state-capitalist regimes.

cont.

White supremacist/Neo Nazi/Skin Head movie rankings:
1. American History X
2.The Believer
3.This is England
4. Imperium
5. Romper Stomper

>>81215941
>>a dictator murdered political dissidents (commies)
Yes, a good thing.

>to prevent his country from turning into a dictatorship
He voluntarily gave up power.

>Bravo Pinochet!
Yes exactly. Chile is one of the best countries in LA right now. Even the "socialist" governments that came in later kept most of his policies.

>>81207388
>>81207735
I agree
Seventeen and balding
There is no god

>>81213784
>atom bomb
There's literally nothing wrong with nuclear weapons unless your idea of fun is having devastating world wars every 30-50 years. Plus, nuclear energy is pretty cool unless you go full Chernobyl, way cleaner than burning coal.

>>81205989
niggas
jews
bad news

>>81215941
>To survive
Yes, and to survive you need things like food, water, shelter etc. 99% of these things the economy produces are being consumed by the working class.

>beyond that to engage in hedonistic and escapist behaviors
lmao

>their shitty life under Capitalism
Life in 2017 for the average person in the west is incredibly better than it was 100-200+ years ago. How fucking delusional can you get?

>4chan is the most radical example of how far people engage in escapism and mass media to forget about their shitty lives.
People's lives have been fucking garbage for the vast majority of human history.
Humans actually have leisure time now and this will increase as capitalism continues to automate.
Holy fuck you people are retarded.

>You're forgetting how the majority of wealth goes to the 1%
HAHAHA
Here we go again.
Who the fuck gives a shit about "wealth". It doesn't matter at all, it's just pieces of paper or digits in a computer.
What the FUCK about the working class already consumes 99% of all consumers goods do you not understand?
If the 1% gave all their wealth to the working class? Will the working class be better off?
NO THEY WOULDN'T YOU DUMB FUCK
THEY ALREADY CONSUME WHAT THEY PRODUCE
It would simply cause inflation because the same exact amount of consumer goods exists in the economy.
Why the fuck do you retards not understand basic logic? You're like a religion.

>Being able to control their life
They already control their lives. You're using violence to prevent them from trying to start a business.
Also again, if the entire economy was worker owned firms, people would have to work JUST AS LONG and JUST AS HARD to get the same amount of consumer goods they are presently consuming. lol

>not having someone leach off them
Prove someone is leaching off them? They already consume what they produce. There's no exploitation. Nobody gives a shit about "muh wealth".

That every living nigger should be executed

>>81215941

>"changing the definition of value"
You people whine about use value vs exchange value. Irrelevant metaphysical useless terms.

>simply owning property without ever having worked for it or even maintain gives you wealth
Uhhhh, no. If you're not planning the structure of production and you just own land then you aren't making any money. Unless you're planning on selling the land later or something.

>where does that wealth come from?
Other humans voluntarily giving you money for successfully planning the structure of production.
Labour itself doesn't create value, it has to be productive value people actually want.

>I use to be an ancap,
LMAO there's NO FUCKING WAY you used to be an ancap. You're a liar.
You don't even understand basic economics or what central banks are. You were never an ancap.

>I don't worship dictators or their state-capitalist regimes.
Ah yes the old "lenin was state capitalist" meme.

File: 1486352471204.jpg (68KB, 700x681px) Image search: [Google]

68KB, 700x681px

>>81215941
>>pretending your movement hasn't been almost entirely coopted by white nationalists and fascists

Good.

Free market white nationalism is literally the best ideology desu.

>>81215858
>You're a person that LITERALLY wants the government to control every aspect of your life and thinks that eventually "the state will wither away".
No, I'm not a Marxist-Leninist.
>>81215858
>Banking and bankers in a free market is a really good thing. Bankers in a central bank debt economy are evil parasites.
There's no such thing as a free market in Capitalism. The history of Capitalism is a history of state intervention to weaken labor power and grant special privileges to the economic elite. Look up English Enclosures to get an idea of what the state had to do to get "willing" workers for factories.
>>81215888
>support them because they don't want to slave away and have to work their entire lives
Which they're already doing.
>They want higher living standards and shorter working hours.
Which they're not getting. Real wages haven't increased in decades and more and more people become debt slaves to achieve the "normal" standard of living.
>>81215964
>Yes, a good thing.
>it's okay when my preferred dictators do it
>He voluntarily gave up power.
After he gained power through a military coup with the help of the US.
>Chile is one of the best countries in LA right now
Which can of course be attributed to the dictator who ruined his country, driving the majority of the citizens into poverty while putting most of the wealth into the hands of the already wealthy.

>>81215941
>>le marxism-leninism is communism and the only type of communism
Yet I can GUARANTEE you would prefer ML to the present system.

You're a hypocrite.

>>81216189
>No, I'm not a Marxist-Leninist.
What are you then?
Some syndicalist, mutualist faggot?

>There's no such thing as a free market in Capitalism.
Yes there is and free markets have existed many times in history.

>The history of Capitalism is a history of state intervention
That's not what libertarians support though. You can call all this massive government interventionism and imperialism "capitalism" all you want. We support free markets not what you refer to as "capitalism". I'm not here to argue semantics.

>Look up English Enclosures
Wow. Who gives a shit? We don't support such things that GOVERNMENTS did.

>>81216068
>Yes, and to survive you need things like food, water, shelter etc. 99% of these things the economy produces are being consumed by the working class.
Which are produced by the workers, it's just before it actually reaches them for their consumption a class of parasites makes sure to excise some of the value created. Nothing like baking a dozen loaves of bread so that at the end of the day you can buy one of them.
>>81216068
>Life in 2017 for the average person in the west is incredibly better than it was 100-200+ years ago. How fucking delusional can you get?
Technological and societal advancement are not the same as Capitalism. Not the mention the increasing rates of depression and general alienation don't speak to highly of your preferred system. Japan and Korea is a create example of the eventual effects of Capitalism while China is capable of offer a window into its bloody past.
>People's lives have been fucking garbage for the vast majority of human history.
[citation needed]

I guess that's why suicide rates keep increasing; people have finally realized how good they have it compared to the past.
>Humans actually have leisure time now and this will increase as capitalism continues to automate.
>nothing like spending the majority of my day doing a job I hate so I can spend the rest of it trying to forget about my day or how I'll begin it again tomorrow
>What the FUCK about the working class already consumes 99% of all consumers goods do you not understand?
What the FUCK about the majority of the people consuming the majority of the goods being an obvious and meaningless conclusion do you not understand? Who cares about material shit when your life isn't your own but the parasite stealing from you?
>If the 1% gave all their wealth to the working class? Will the working class be better off?
It's not about the digits in a computer, it's how the entire system affects all areas of your life.
>They already control their lives.
Kek

File: working hours.jpg (169KB, 816x512px) Image search: [Google]

169KB, 816x512px

>>81216189
>Which they're already doing.
Yes, tjhanks

I want a free market, not a central bank driven/government dominated economy where my living standards stagnate.
I want a free market where prices come down all the time and wages rise. I want free banking.

>Which they're not getting.
No shit this is what we have been saying. Thanks to central banking wages have stagnated and real productivity is dropping.

>Real wages haven't increased in decades
No fucking shit, retard. It's what we are trying to stop from happening.

Under actual free market wages rise while working hours decrease.
Don't believe me? Here's some objective data on hours.

>>81215941
>m-my brand of communism will work guys, j-just watch!

>>81216189
>>it's okay when my preferred dictators do it
Yes, yes it is.
Got a problem with this?

>with the help of the US.
The CIA was involved yes, but to a much limited extent. It was mostly pinochet himself.
Also Milton friedman only talked to him once for 45 minutes.

>driving the majority of the citizens into poverty
lmao life before pinochet was much much worse where basic food was hard to come by and store shelves were bare.

He actually put in the majority of the so called "liberalization" policies towards the end of his term and guess what, the governments that came after him KEPT most of his policies. Chile is still much more free market than most of SA and their people are much much better off.

>>81216068
>You're using violence to prevent them from trying to start a business.
No, that'd me be fixing the past violence that created this system in the first place.
>JUST AS LONG and JUST AS HARD to get the same amount of consumer goods they are presently consuming
>if you got double the amount of money you currently earn that'd mean you'd have to work the same amount to get what you have now
???

Again, it's not about material shit. Thinking that's all that matters shows your complete ignorance of human happiness.
>Prove someone is leaching off them?
>the government says I own all this equipment you're using to produce what you're producing. Because the government says that and is willing to use their hired guns (which they hired with your money) to protect it for me, that means that everything you produce actually belongs to me. Don't worry though, I'll give you a fraction of the value you create so that you can continue living and working for me. I'm not a parasite though! I'm a job creator!
>>81216126
>You people whine about use value vs exchange value. Irrelevant metaphysical useless terms.
I'm not educated enough in Marxism to debate that.
>>81216126
>If you're not planning the structure of production and you just own land then you aren't making any money
In agrarian-based economies simply owning the land gave you money through rents. I didn't even have any infrastructure on it, the proles will make that for you. Now, people who simply own money can put it into the stock market and allow it to make money for them with zero effort on their part. Where does that wealth come from?
>it has to be productive value people actually want.
Which has to come from labor. If you're not laboring you're not producing.

>>81216307
>Which are produced by the workers
Exactly lol, and they also get CONSUMED by the workers.

>a class of parasites makes sure to excise some of the value
actually NO lol
None of the "value" is taken. The working class consumes 99% of these consumer goods.
No value is "taken". I don't know why this is so difficult for you tiny socialist brain to comprehend.
What more could you possibly get than virtually 100%?

>Nothing like baking a dozen loaves of bread so that at the end of the day you can buy one of them.
It's not just the worker that makes these loafs of bread. It's the CAPITAL that allows more bread to be produced. The worker is just ONE input into the production process.

>Technological and societal advancement are not the same as Capitalism.
lmao capitalism is literally the MAIN driving force behind these things
sure the government did a few things but the vast majority is from the private sector
Also technology is fucking USELESS unless it's applied to industry so much more things can be produced so people can have higher living standards.

>Not the mention the increasing rates of depression and general alienation
I agree this exists. It's always existed. Things aren't that great now because we live under a government controlled central bank bullshit economy where living standards stagnate.
An actual free market would put an end to this.

>Japan and Korea is a eventual effects of Capitalism
What? Much higher living standards and lower working hours?
>bawwww muh suicide rates
They've always killed themselves
>muh working hours
Do you realize how much japanese people USED to work. Their working hours are actually much lower than the early 1900s and before.

>[citation needed]
kek
Are you actually serious right now?
This is why people mock you people and your religion. The vast majority of human history has been excruciating poverty, extremely long working hours and child labour. It was capitalism that started to put a stop to these things.

>>81205989
Stomp niggers, crush their empty skulls, secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.

>>81208267
Second time I've seen someone using "lowkey" on /tv/ today.

Where the fuck are all you normies coming from?

>>81216307
>I guess that's why suicide rates keep increasing; people have finally realized how good they have it compared to the past.
It's mainly in Japan suicide rates increasing. It's mainly a cultural thing and they have bullshit divorce laws that lead to this as well.
It's actually funny you think there's some magical solution to the japanese suicide problem.

>>nothing like spending the majority of my day doing a job I hate so I can spend the rest of it trying to forget about my day or how I'll begin it again tomorrow
How is this an argument?
Of course people have to work. They are just working LESS than they used to 100+ years ago.
Why is this so hard for you to get?

As automation advanced people will have fewer and fewer working hours.

Are you actually claiming you can create a system where people don't have to work? Or where people's "jobs" can be creating art all day? lmao I'm sure the economy can support that

>meaningless conclusion
AHAHAHAHHAHAHA
HOLY FUCK

How is this meaningless.
Are you honestly this retarded?
What the fuck can you possibly have more than virtually 100%?

I literally got you to admit that there's no benefit to workers taking over the means of production and you're squirming to try to save face.

>Who cares about material shit
Uhh, people that like FOOD, WATER, SHELTER, MEDICINE and ENTERTAINMENT?

Holy fuck you're one dumb fuck.

>when your life isn't your own but the parasite stealing from you?
lol what the fuck makes you think my life isn't my own? I'm free to make my own choices and do as I please as long as I don't infringe on the rights of others.
If I consume what I produce, how is a parasite stealing from me?

> it's how the entire system affects all areas of your life.
By vastly increasing my living standards and giving me more leisure time?

>>81216126
>LMAO there's NO FUCKING WAY you used to be an ancap
Oh, yes I was. Then I realized that it doesn't matter if it's the government telling you what to do or your boss, you're still ruled; or whether it was through taxation of extraction of surplus value, you're still robbed.
>Ah yes the old "lenin was state capitalist" meme.
Not an argument.
>>81216188
>I support freedom
>but only for my specific tribal group
>>81216201
No, probably not. I don't like being disappeared for my opinions.
>>81216291
Anarchist. One who's an actual anarchist.
>Yes there is and free markets have existed many times in history.
Not under Capitalism.
>We support free markets not what you refer to as "capitalism".
I'm not arguing against some hypothetical free market. I'm arguing against the current economic system.
>>81216326
Then I guess you should start fighting against the state. Maybe also not calling your preferred economic system the same as the current one would help also.
>>81216358
Impossible to know. I do know it'll be nothing like the previous attempts.
>>81216369
>Got a problem with this?
Got a problem with being a intellectually dishonest hypocrite?
>the governments that came after him KEPT most of his policies
Yes, governments tend to serve the interest of capital, even when they call themselves "socialist".
> Chile is still much more free market than most of SA and their people are much much better off.
Nice correlation fallacy m8. I honestly doubt either of us have an extensive enough knowledge of Chile to honestly know why it is the way it is.
>>81216479
>Exactly lol, and they also get CONSUMED by the workers.
Not before a parasite leaches a bit of their labor first.
>None of the "value" is taken. The working class consumes 99% of these consumer goods.
If after overhead I create $100 worth of something in a day, but I only receive $60 of it, then that means the remainder has been taken.

>>81208680
That's quasi-gymrat tier. 6 to 8 more months, and he'd be a qualified gymrat. Not bad, especially for an actor like Edward Norton, who I figured would be a perma-DYEL. Until I saw Ameri X, I legit didn't think he'd ever been in shape in his entire life.

>>81216627
just want you to know that i made that comment and am still here to acknowledge your reply to it

>>81216447
>No, that'd me be fixing the past violence
Nope lol.
Starting is a business isn't "violence". It's voluntary human interaction.
People voluntarily choose to work for my business.

>>if you got double the amount of money you currently earn that'd mean you'd have to work the same amount to get what you have now
YES
Holy fuck now I KNOW you were lying about being an ancap. You have no fucking IDEA how money works.
Money isn't MAGIC you delusional religious cultist.
If every capitalist gave all of the wealth and savings to the workers and the workers went to go spend that money, it would simply cause massive inflation.
Why?
Because as I've said for a billion times, the working class ALREADY CONSUMES 99% of all consumer goods. There are no MORE consumer goods out there to be purchased with this money.
Why the fuck is this so difficult for you?
Why?
WHY?!!?!?!

>it's not about material shit.
Yes it is about material things. Food, water, shelter, medicine, entertainment. These are material things I NEED. If I have enough of these things on a constant basis than I can CHOOSE to work less hours. It's that simple.

>Thinking that's all that matters
It's not all that matters, but it's a requirement of human survival you fucking idiot.

>>the government says I own all this equipment you're using to produce what you're producing.
The government says this because the capitalist purchased it from the savings he accumulated accurately planning the structure of production.

>Because the government says that and is willing to use their hired guns (which they hired with your money) to protect it for me
Yes, this is a good thing. We need police to prevent theft.

>that means that everything you produce actually belongs to me
No, the capitalist just owns the capital. He sells what is produced.

>I'll give you a fraction of the value you create
The worker is just a tiny input into the production process. He didn't create all of the value.

>>81213784
>Israeli's aren't Jews

Unironically really makes me think. Never actually thought of the Israeli's as non-Jewish entities until pretty recently. Like you said, the real Jews are those without soil.

>>81205989
That even if you make a great argument as to why jews and niggers are destroying society, it doesnt matter because HES A FUCKIN NAZI LOL

All the racist edgy turds you see posting on 4chan would never say or do 99.9% of the things they talk about, and if they did they would get molested in prison

>>81216447
>I'm not educated enough in Marxism to debate that.
Lol then you should talk about surplus value then.
It's fucking bullshit.

>In agrarian-based economies simply owning the land gave you money through rents.
That was called feudalism. Government granting special privileges to landowners.

In the anarcho-capitalist american midwest, they had homesteading and claims associations where anyone can come and set up shop and own land. If they didn't own this land then the government didn't recognize it. This is literally capitalism. Get the state out of the way.

>Now, people who simply own money can put it into the stock market and allow it to make money for them with zero effort on their part.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Holy fuck you think every stock on the stock market goes up?
It's a risk you giant idiot.
Also what about the vast number of working class that have retirement funds that invest in the stock market.
Are they evil capitalists now?
No, you fucking idiot. They're investing in firms that return a profit and living off this profit.

>Which has to come from labor.
Which doesn't fucking matter.
You can hit a barn door for 8 hours a day it still won't create any value. The value comes from planning the structure of production to create things people actually want.

>If you're not laboring you're not producing.
The capitalist is also a labourer.
Also did you know the vast majority of capitalists are SMALL BUSINESSES? People who used to be workers and risk EVERYTHING to start a firm. Most businesses FAIL you know.

Based communist poster

>>81216479
>It's the CAPITAL that allows more bread to be produced
Capital is simply the "dead" labor of past workers. Sometimes that dead labor is of the actual owner, but usually it's not because small businesses get buttfucked by the economy and fail and until it does or if it doesn't, the business owner simply becomes a glorified worker for the bank.
>lmao capitalism is literally the MAIN driving force behind these things
No, human workers are the driving force behind those things, not an intangible system. Specifically human beings following their self-interest; unfortunately in Capitalism following your self-interest usually involves having someone else leach from it.
>Much higher living standards and lower working hours?
No, alienation and societal decay.
>They've always killed themselves
Not to this extent.
>Do you realize how much japanese people USED to work. Their working hours are actually much lower than the early 1900s and before.
I never made a statement either way. That wasn't the point I was making.
>The vast majority of human history has been excruciating poverty, extremely long working hours and child labour.
Thanks to the greed of a few men with power; also, that's not history in most of the world.
>It was capitalism that started to put a stop to these things.
>these things existed because they were the most efficient wages to extract profits
>they ended because of desire to extract the most profits
>>81216571
>Of course people have to work
Historically they worked for themselves, not for someone else.
>They are just working LESS than they used to 100+ years ago.
Yes, Capitalism was particularly horrible in the West a 100 years ago; just the West tho, it's still like that elsewhere. Historically, even during Feudalism, humans worked much less than they even do now.

File: 1487643935351.jpg (1MB, 2400x3000px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2400x3000px

>>81207786

Nazis are the niggers of white people.

>>81216608
>Oh, yes I was.
No you weren't lmao you don't even understand inflation. you don't even understand what central banks are.
You're a liar and I caught you. Fess up.

>surplus value
It doesn't exist no matter how much you want it to exist kid.

>Not an argument.
Is an argument. He was the true implementation of marx's teachings.

>Anarchist. One who's an actual anarchist.
You're not an ararchist at ALL.
You're a statist. Catalonia was statist.
http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/spain.htm
Democracy is statist and authoritarian.

>Not under Capitalism.
Capitalism is a useless fucking term that means a million things. The term only serves to confuse people. We talk about free market vs unfree market.

>I'm arguing against the current economic system.
and you KNOW all libertarians are against the current economic system retard.
We don't want to have our living standards go down every year.
We want prices to come down all the time, we want free banking and a free market.

>Then I guess you should start fighting against the state.
Already do. Unlike you leftarchists who constantly whine when the government cut's spending. It's quite funny.

>Maybe also not calling your preferred economic system the same as the current one
Never did that.

>>81216608
>Got a problem with being a intellectually dishonest hypocrite?
How am I intellectually dishonest? I'm not a libertarian. I support free markets but I'm not a libertarian.

>Yes, governments tend to serve the interest of capital
Not all of the time and yes it was a GOOD THING what they did because it resulted in high living standards for chile people compared to the rest of latin america.
Does this upset you?

> I honestly doubt either of us have an extensive enough knowledge of Chile to honestly know why it is the way it is.
lmao it's pretty fucking easy, they're one of the freest markets in latin america and their people are the richest. they have living standards close to europe now

compare that to Venezuela, cuba or other LA countries.

>>81216608
>Not before a parasite leaches a bit of their labor first.
But they don't.
You can't prove they do.
If they were doing this the working class wouldn't be consuming 99% of all consumer goods. The working class would be consuming maybe 20% of all consumer goods and the capitalist class would be consuming the other 80%. But as we know, this isn't happening.
Where's your logic here. You have none.

Actually refute what I'm saying or just close the tab. We're going in circles now because you refuse to acknowledge BASIC MATH

>If after overhead I create $100 worth of something in a day, but I only receive $60 of it, then that means the remainder has been taken.
First off you didn't create $100 dollars of said thing. Labour is only one input.
Secondly. If for some reason, if you(and everyone else) was given $100 and you went to spend this money. You would be able to buy the same exact amount of products as if you spent $60. It would only create inflation.
The same amount of consumer goods exists. Why is this so fucking hard for you children?

NOTHING YOU CAN FUCKING SAY CAN REFUTE THIS LOGIC

NOTHING

>>81216571
>What the fuck can you possibly have more than virtually 100%?
This entire point is a non-sequitur. Just because they CONSUME the products does not mean they get the entire VALUE of what they produce.
>Uhh, people that like FOOD, WATER, SHELTER, MEDICINE and ENTERTAINMENT?
Food so poorly distributed that the world has epidemics of famine and obesity. Water that's poisoned. Shelter that there is more of than the homeless. Medicine that serves to gauge and profit off people's sickness. Entertainment that's designed for escapism and substitution.
>If I consume what I produce, how is a parasite stealing from me?
Because you have to produce a dozen loaves of bread to get enough wages to buy one.
>By vastly increasing my living standards and giving me more leisure time?
All that living standards and leisure time sure helps the depression epidemic. Anyway, it's sure great you live in the West where you can say that and not in the rest of the world.
>>81216715
>People voluntarily choose to work for my business.
If someone told me to work for them or starve, I'd take that as a threat, not a opportunity. People only even consider working for your business because of the current conditions created through past state violence.
>Because as I've said for a billion times, the working class ALREADY CONSUMES 99% of all consumer goods. There are no MORE consumer goods out there to be purchased with this money.
Firstly, you're assuming that all of these goods are actually consumed and not just wasted, like half of all food produced in the US. Secondly, it's not about how many goods you can purchase, but how much less you need to work to purchase them. If I was paid twice the amount I'd have to work half the time to maintain my standard of living. Alternatively, if I was paid twice the amount I'd be able to have a normal standard of living without going into massive debt.
> capitalist purchased it from the savings he accumulated accurately
Or most likely just inherited it.

>>81216827
You literally skipped over half my post. The post that directly proves you wrong. LOL

>Capital is simply the "dead" labor of past workers.
It doesn't matter though. That transaction has already taken place and has nothing to do with the present transaction.

>No, human workers are the driving force behind those things
LMAO NO
Without a massive level of innovation and capital investment from businesses there would be no technology.

>in Capitalism following your self-interest usually involves having someone else leach from it.
In a free market, following your self interest means creating better living standards for other people

>No, alienation and societal decay.
LOL OKAY
That's literally ONLY your opinion though. Objectively we see massive increases in living standards and lower working hours.
This may be depressing for you but that's literally your own problem.

>Not to this extent.
It's mainly to do with their gender/marriage laws.
I don't know how you think getting rid of capitalism will magically put an end to this.
EXPLAIN YOURSELF
How would your magic system stop this?

>Thanks to the greed of a few men
LOL NO
lmao this is exactly why you people are mocked

People were poor in the past because they had to work for very long and hard just to produce enough to survive. It's was literally what nature was.
It's not like capitalism came along and made everyone work extremely hard.
It freed people from work.
Imagine you lived in the neolithic and you had to produce food all day every day for like 20 hours just to survive.
Who's exploiting you here?
Nature.

>>these things existed because they were the most efficient wages to extract profits
LMAO no these things existed because it was literally what humans needed to do to survive.
even if they had a magic anarchist socialist system back then, people would still have to work an excruciatingly long amount of time and work really hard just to get enough food to survive

Read actual history.

>>81216715
>Yes, this is a good thing. We need police to prevent theft.
If only they prevented the theft of my surplus labor :^)
>He sells what is produced.
He cannot sell what he doesn't own.
>The worker is just a tiny input into the production process. He didn't create all of the value.
All the workers as a collective did.
>>81216803
>Holy fuck you think every stock on the stock market goes up?
>It's a risk you giant idiot.
There are ways to have safe, low risk investments. Regardless, it being gambling doesn't change the fact you're gaining additional money from current money; just like gambling in a casino nothing of value is produced, money is just redistributed. Considering the overall wealth of stockholders goes up, the gains in the stock market cannot be attributed to other gamblers losing money, it must be attributed to something else.
>The value comes from planning the structure of production to create things people actually want.
What does that even mean?
>People who used to be workers and risk EVERYTHING to start a firm. Most businesses FAIL you know.
Yes, it's unfortunate how they were duped into being another worker for the banks.
>>81216894
>No you weren't lmao you don't even understand inflation. you don't even understand what central banks are.
I disagree.
>It doesn't exist no matter how much you want it to exist kid.
How are profits explained? Why does a welder who works for a company make significantly less than a similarly skilled welder who is a contractor?
>He was the true implementation of marx's teachings.
Not a Marxist.
>Catalonia was statist
Don't agree with everything Catalonia did.
>We talk about free market vs unfree market.
I'm talking about the current economic system vs Socialism.
>We want prices to come down all the time, we want free banking and a free market.
The logical conclusion of statelessness and free markets is Mutualism, which is inherently Socialistic. Read Markets not Capitalism.

>>81205989
>nazis are bad
>dont be a nazi

>>81205989
Niggers are bad

>>81216827
>Historically they worked for themselves
You mean when people lived in tribes as hunter gatherers? Or when they lived in agrarian farms? They were still extremely poor back then and spent most of their time WORKING.

>Capitalism was particularly horrible in the West a 100 years ago
The capitalist west, america specifically had the highest living standards on earth. This is why people came from all over the world to live in america for their capitalism, freedom and high living standards.

Cry all you want, but it's true.

>Historically, even during Feudalism, humans worked much less than they even do now.
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
People spent their entire fucking lives working hard labour under feudalism.
Are you actually saying this shit?
ahahahahAHAHAHAHA

File: page-not-found-boston-wedding-photographer-daniel-aaron-sprague-dzO6NB-clipart.jpg (27KB, 323x301px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 323x301px

>>81217036
>Just because they CONSUME the products does not mean they get the entire VALUE of what they produce.
YES IT DOES
WHAT THE LITERAL FUCK ARE YOU EVEN SAYING NOW

HOW CAN ONE PERSON BE THIS STUPID?

WHAT MORE VALUE CAN THEY POSSIBLY HAVE?

>>81215240
Capitalism has given people the highest standard of living EVER though? You carry around a tiny supercomputer in your pocket thanks to capitalism. People work less hours and have unparalleled choice in what to spend their wages on. It seems strange that anyone would advocate for other systems that inevitably lead to worse outcomes for working people just because they're jealous a few people get super wealthy.

>>81208212
>You can thank you lazy ass slave owning ancestors for that lmao
my ancestors weren't Jewish though

>>81217221
But according to half the thread it's the opposite.

>>81217036
>Just because they CONSUME the products does not mean they get the entire VALUE of what they produce.
Okay, so let me get this straight.
Virtually 100% of every single product produced in the economy goes directly to the working class to be consumed, saved etc whatever.
What more value are you talking about?
There's literally NOTHING ELSE for the working class to have. There is NO value. They are getting all of the value.

>Food so poorly distributed
99% going to the working class?
What else would you want?

>Food so poorly distributed
You mean in shitty countries with NO FREE MARKET? Countries that restrict trade and don't have property rights?
Hmm I wonder why people living in the more capitalist countries actually have food.

>Shelter that there is more of than the homeless.
The federal reserve inflates the money supply to prop up the housing market making houses expensive. In a free market they would be extremely cheap and owned by many many more people.

>Medicine that serves to gauge and profit off people's sickness.
Profit off saving lives? I hope they make even more profit.

>Entertainment that's designed for escapism and substitution.
If you don't like the art people create, you don't have to view it.
It's not our fault that you don't like certain types of art.

>Because you have to produce a dozen loaves of bread to get enough wages to buy one.
But if the working class consumes 99% of all consumer goods, it seems as if every single one of these loaves are being consumed by the working class. If you dumb theory, where exactly are the other 11 loaves of bread going?
Where exactly?
Don't skip over this question, it's going to be hilarious to watch you answer it.
Seems there's a GAPING hole in your delusional logic here.
Also AGAIN, the worker is just one input into the production process. The worker can produce more loaves because of the CAPITAL.

>>81216894
> Unlike you leftarchists...
Gidsmedats are public sedation and a way to maintain a reserve army of labor, thereby keeping labor power low, at the worker's expense.
>>81216931
>How am I intellectually dishonest?
By saying Cuba is/was bad because of Castro being a dictator who murdered political dissidents but being okay with that when it's your guy.
>>81216994
>The working class would be consuming maybe 20% of all consumer goods and the capitalist class would be consuming the other 80%
I've addressed this point previously.
>Labour is only one input.
Capital is simply dead labor.
>You would be able to buy the same exact amount of products as if you spent $60. It would only create inflation.
Just nonsense. If I had twice the money I'd be able to work half as less.
>>81217192
>You literally skipped over half my post.
Honestly getting tired of arguing desu imo. I skipped over the parts I felt irrelevant or didn't understand since you like using non-sequiturs.
>That transaction has already taken place and has nothing to do with the present transaction.
If I'm cutting wood planks, I'm adding my labor using the saw to the labor of the person who made the sawmill and who cut down the trees. The lumber and sawmill are considered capital, but in reality they're another form of labor. All this labor together creates a product. Why does someone who did not labor, but simply speculated entitled to the value of our collective labor?
>from businesses there would be no technology.
Businesses are not actual entities, they are made up of people.
>Objectively we see massive increases in living standards and lower working hours.
Meaningless if it doesn't make humans happier.
>How would your magic system stop this?
The only goal and purpose of the system is to make profits. This is inherently alienating when to succeed to must care about profits over people; even when people do not think this they are affected by the people in power who do.

>>81215162
>THAT VIOLENCE AND HATE CREATES VIOLENCE AND HATE.
Wrong nigger dick sucker, niggers CREATE VIOLENCE AND HATE and demand to get payed for nothing while leaving their families. Niggers truly are the disgusting subhumans

>>81217308

>Capitalism has given people the highest standard of living EVER though?

That's false though. It's the mixed economies of Europe that have given the best living standards for the population.

Think Norway.

The average person in the USA is dogshit poor.

>>81217419
Norway is a petrostate, you might as well point at Saudi Arabia. How many goods do you own that came from Norway? They're not innovators and their welfare state will only last as long as the oil does, at which point their average wealth will drop like a stone.

>The average person in the USA is dogshit poor.
No they're not, not even close. The US is 6th for median income, and the cost of living is far lower in many parts of the US than it is in Europe. There is a lot more opportunity in the US to increase your wealth than there is in Europe too.

>>81217036
>All that living standards and leisure time sure helps the depression epidemic.
There are countless other reasons people are depressed.
You have failed to come up with a solution to this problem.
You just blame "capitalism" for this with no explanation why capitalism is doing this and no explanation how how getting rid of capitalism will solve this problem.

You're a delusional moron.

>Anyway, it's sure great you live in the West where you can say that and not in the rest of the world.
Thank fuck I live in a more capitalist country and not a third world enslaved market shithole that doesn't respect free markets.
lol

>If someone told me to work for them or starve
You don't have to starve, you can always start your own business or go work for someone else or go live in the woods.
LIFE is work or starve. When people were hunter-gatherers it was literally work or starve.
Work or starve isn't an argument. The business is providing an opportunity where there was none before.

>People only even consider working for your business because of the current conditions created through past state violence.
Only delusional violent children like yourself consider property rights to be "state violence".

>>81217192
>It's not like capitalism came along and made everyone work extremely hard.
That's exactly what happened. English enclosure happened so that people who not be able to work their own land and be forced to work as wage labors to survive. People objectively worked less and under less stressful and disciplined conditions before capitalism.
>Imagine you lived in the neolithic and you had to produce food all day every day for like 20 hours just to survive.
Simply untrue. Hunter-gatherers sometimes worked less, sometimes more, but they actually enjoyed their work.
>Who's exploiting you here?
No one, because no one is profiting off me.
> people would still have to work an excruciatingly long amount of time and work really hard just to get enough food to survive
As a wage labor. They were doing just fine when they still had their own land to farm.
>>81217242
>You mean when...
Both. Agrarian farmers under Feudalism were simply just taxed a base amount, usually in labor or produce, but they still worked for themselves.
>This is why people came from all over the world to live in america for their capitalism
I don't know about that, but I do know one group of people, the Irish, came over because they were literally starving in their home country. Not because of a lack of food, but because the food the produced in Ireland wasn't theirs to keep, it was the landowners, and the landowners knew they could get more money selling it to wealthier Englishmen than to poor, starving Irishmen, and that's exactly what they did, to the detriment of 25% of the Irish population to starved to death.

Greed is good, right?
>People spent their entire fucking lives working hard labour under feudalism.
Untrue. Look it up.>>81217264
>WHAT MORE VALUE CAN THEY POSSIBLY HAVE?
If I received the full value of my labor, instead of working 2 hours to buy one cake, I could work 2 hours for 2 cakes, or 1 hour for 1 cake.

>>81205989
/pol/ is always right

>>81217036

>you're assuming that all of these goods are actually consumed and not just wasted, like half of all food produced in the US
lol this myth is so dumb and flawed. First off it's not even close to half. Secondly most of the food thrown out is ROTTEN FOOD.
Also that report along with it's many flaws states the vast majority of food waste comes from people's homes. Working class people have so much food, they are lazy letting it go rotten and wasting it.
What in the fuck are you suggesting people do instead? Are you suggesting using state violence to prevent the working class from throwing this food away? Not very anarchist of you. Also you think in your socialist utopia this wouldn't also happen? I thought you said food would be plentiful? Also, it's not like this food could be transported to the third world, it will have gotten rotten by then.

>Secondly, it's not about how many goods you can purchase, but how much less you need to work to purchase them.
That's literally my point.
Capitalism has reduced working hours so people can get MORE food with LESS working hours. This is what reductions in prices do.

If people who produced food worked less hours producing food, there will be LESS FOOD. If they worked more hours there would be MORE FOOD. People are working the exact amount of time needed to produce the consumer goods they consume. It's not like the capitalist can just decide how many hours needed to work to produce certain things.

>If I was paid twice the amount I'd have to work half the time to maintain my standard of living.
No you wouldn't.
I ALREADY WENT OVER THIS and you skipped it.
You intellectually dishonest piece of shit.
Since the working class already consumes 99% of all consumer goods if they were given more money from the capitalist then prices would simply rise because the same amount of consumer goods exist. YOU WOULDN'T BE ANY BETTER OFF.
How many fucking times do I have to repeat myself?

>>81217419
>That's false though. It's the mixed economies of Europe that have given the best living standards for the population.
That's actually false.
The best country in the world is Switzerland with a private healthcare system, low taxes and low inflation.
Higher living standards than norway or sweden

>>81217036
>If someone told me to work for them or starve, I'd take that as a threat, not a opportunity.
That's life. You think if you lived in a glorious communist commune you'd be able to live without working? You think if you became a hunter gatherer and eschewed society entirely you'd live a leisurely life without working? I know internet commies are just lazy fucks who desperately want to be NEETs but come on man, you're going to have to work for a living under ANY system. We're not in a post scacity Star Trek style utopia and won't be for the entire span of our lives so you need to come back to reality and realize that you're going to have to work to earn a living in some form or another and at least capitalism lets you pick your poison rather than just getting on the state bus and being driven to the local agricultural center for backbreaking labor.

File: 190238475672093.jpg (55KB, 512x512px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 512x512px

>>81217409
>Honestly getting tired of arguing desu imo.

Because you lost the debate and couldn't respond.
Every single time I explain the basic logic of what's wrong with your delusional theories you just skip over them and repeat yourself. You actually think money is a magic thing that creates resources and that inflation doesn't exist lmao

Also capitalism created anime, one of the things you people hate so much.

All socialists need to be thrown out of helicopters.

>>81217308
>You carry around a tiny supercomputer in your pocket thanks to capitalism.
No, thanks to scientists and engineers.
>People work less hours
Certainly not in China.
>have unparalleled choice in what to spend their wages on
Yes, I love consumerism, don't you?
> because they're jealous a few people get super wealthy.
People can get as wealthy as they want off their own labor, not mine.
>>81217399
>There's literally NOTHING ELSE for the working class to have. There is NO value. They are getting all of the value.
So, how do the rich get rich if the workers are literally getting all the value produced?
>>81217399
>Countries that restrict trade and don't have property rights?
They sure have trade for all the precious materials leaving their country, or the sweatshop produced items, and property rights for the owners of the mines and the sweatshops.
> I hope they make even more profit.
Yes, I also love when people go bankrupt or die because they can't afford the lifesaving medicine that's artificially high because of government patent laws.
>It's not our fault that you don't like certain types of art.
I dislike that the art has to exist just for people to bear living.
>If you dumb theory, where exactly are the other 11 loaves of bread going?
Obviously to the majority of the population. The real question is why does someone who produces 12 only get enough value, in the form of money, to buy 1? Where is the rest of the value going?
>>81217546
>There are countless other reasons people are depressed.
Like what?
>free markets
I thought the current economic system was not a free market?
>you can always start your own business
Not without substantial capital. The bank might loan it to me, if I'm lucky, then I can have my business fail and all my assets go to repaying the bank.
>go work for someone else
You're still a slave even if you can choose your master.
>go live in the woods.
Just a ridiculous, unrealistic suggestion.

File: 1476100592570.jpg (42KB, 280x309px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 280x309px

>It's a commie thinks the solution is to give everyone more money episode
Fucking make economics a mandatory subject already

>>81217772
>People can get as wealthy as they want off their own labor, not mine.
Then start your own business dude. Nobody is stopping you.

>>81217772
>Not without substantial capital. The bank might loan it to me, if I'm lucky, then I can have my business fail and all my assets go to repaying the bank.
Wow. You're so close to getting it. Yes, the owner takes on the risk, they have more to lose than the people they employ.

>>81217210
>If only they prevented the theft of my surplus labor :^)
lmao I already disproved surplus labour lmao
nobody cares :^)

>He cannot sell what he doesn't own.
He does own it. Just because you say you own it, doesn't change that fact.

>All the workers as a collective did.
Nope lol. Not that specific example of production. Previous labour from years ago that made the machines doesn't matter whatsoever. A waterfall is also capital in certain industries. Laborers didn't make that. Workers are only one input.

>There are ways to have safe, low risk investments.
Yes, but there is still a risk and not much return.

>Regardless, it being gambling doesn't change the fact you're gaining additional money from current money
No, you're getting a portion of the profit by lending money to the firm to increase it's profitability. The money you get doing this is saved, which reduces the price of all other goods in the economy.

>nothing of value is produced
Except increasing the ability of the firm to produce things. That's literally creating value.

>What does that even mean?
Sorry you're too stupid to understand basic economic concepts.

>it's unfortunate how they were duped into being another worker for the banks.
No, it's fortunate that they risked everything to create higher living standards for everyone else in society by INCREASING PRODUCTION
I bet you think production doesn't need to be increased.

>I disagree.
You already proved you don't understand these things lol

>I'm talking about the current economic system vs Socialism.
Then you're retarded. Libertarians hate our current economic system.
Why do I have to keep repeating myself.
Our current economic system is not a free market, it's government.

>The logical conclusion of statelessness and free markets is Mutualism
Worker owned firms have every right to exist even in today's economy. The reason they don't is because they are UNPRODUCTIVE.

File: C4tJi0MWIAE2IB3.jpg (71KB, 898x692px) Image search: [Google]

71KB, 898x692px

>>81217773
He doesn't even understand inflation.
He literally thinks if all wealth from the capitalists was given to the workers, that the workers will magically be able to buy more things and there will be no massive inflation.

It's so childish, I swear.

He's squirming every time I explain this simple fact to him.

>>81217409
>By saying Cuba is/was bad because of Castro being a dictator who murdered political dissidents but being okay with that when it's your guy.
But communists literally aren't people.

File: Really.jpg (20KB, 306x306px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 306x306px

>Create a business
>Take out a loan to finance it
>Buy raw materials
>Buy warehouse
>Employ this guy to use the materials I bought to create widgets for an agreed upon wage
>Earn a profit
>Guy starts whining that I didn't really own the widgets because he put them together despite me being the one who provided the materials, the location and his wage to piece them together
>Guy demands I split the profits 50/50 with him despite me being the one paying the expenses and him putting in fucking nothing and drawing a wage from me
Commies are retarded

>>81217546
>LIFE is work or starve.
The difference is life isn't profiting off my situation. The difference is I can't do anything about life controlling me, I can if it's another human.
>The business is providing an opportunity where there was none before.
No, first they had to remove any opportunities that existed in the first place. ENGLISH ENCLOSURES, WAKE UP SHEEPLE AND GO HERD THOSE SHEEP ON THE PREVIOUS COMMON LAND THAT I JUST PRIVATIZED FOR MYSELF
>Only delusional violent children like yourself consider property rights to be "state violence".
Not what I was saying. Capitalism only exists because of previous state intervention.
>>81217618
>First off it's not even close to half.
Believe it's around 40% IIRC.
>Secondly most of the food thrown out is ROTTEN FOOD.
No, just past the artificial expiration date, or because a new shipment came in and they need room.
>vast majority of food waste comes from people's homes
Source?
>Are you suggesting using state violence to prevent the working class from throwing this food away?
Well, without state subsidies food probably wouldn't be cheap enough to do that.
>Also, it's not like this food could be transported to the third world, it will have gotten rotten by then.
???

B----D~~~~~ :D
>Capitalism has reduced working hours so people can get MORE food with LESS working hours
No, advances in technology has done that, because of engineers and scientists.
>No you wouldn't.
>Oh shit, I now get all 12 loaves of bread. Now I don't need to buy bread and I can trade it for other shit.
>>81217674
There's a difference between artificial and natural consequences.
>>81217736
Never really talked about money. Mostly talked about value. Tired because I've been arguing for 3 hours and need to go to sleep.
>>81217773
Didn't say that.
>>81217791
I'd prefer to not be buttfucked by banks. That's stopping me.
>>81217836
Risk doesn't create value. Also, big corporations face the smallest risk.

>>81217943
socialists can't seem to understand the concept of assuming the risks of a business venture

>>81217772
>So, how do the rich get rich if the workers are literally getting all the value produced?
Because they are getting MONEY, MONEY THAT THEY SAVE.
NOT TANGIBLE CONSUMER GOODS.

I don't know why this is so fucking difficult for you.

>Obviously to the majority of the population.
You mean the working class.
So it is going to the guy that made loaves of bread.
Hmm, thanks for admitting you were wrong, you delusional moron.

>The real question is why does someone who produces 12 only get enough value
That's not a real question at all.
I've already debunked this.
That person is only ONE input. Capital is the other input.
Did that labourer CREATE the capital?

>Where is the rest of the value going?
Literally to the rest of the working class as you have finally admitted.

:^)

>>81217976
>Never really talked about money. Mostly talked about value.
You LITERALLY just stated that if the capitalist gave the worker more money(which is what you are referring to when you say value) that he will be better off and be able to buy more goods.

I already debunked this several fucking times with the inflation and scarcity of consumer goods argument.
Holy fuck you socialists are delusional, are we really going to keep going in fucking circles here?

>Tired
You're tired because you're wrong and refuse to acknowledge what I'm saying.

>Risk doesn't create value.
Economic risk is literally what creates value.
Workers simply labouring for the sake of labouring does not create value. Labour has to be productive to be valuable. The capitalist brings the land, labour, capital together with a plan to create actual value. It's a risk he or she takes.

>>81217871
>lmao I already disproved surplus labour lmao
[citation neeeded]
>He does own it
You missed my point.
>Previous labour from years ago that made the machines doesn't matter whatsoever.
It proves that value can only come from labor.
>A waterfall
No, just a natural resource that's useless without machinery.
>No, you're getting a portion of the profit by lending money to the firm to increase it's profitability
Most stock market trading is between stockholders.
>I bet you think production doesn't need to be increased.
Not really.
>You already proved you don't understand these things lol
Do you understand how you're going to be deported to FEMA camps on fucking Saint Kitts and Nevis and get your ass fucked by Don Juan the prison guard?
>Libertarians hate our current economic system.
YET YOU KEEP DEFENDING IT
>The reason they don't is because they are UNPRODUCTIVE.
More productive than regular companies actually. Just harder to start because there's less profit for a potential investor, because the profits are supposed to go to the workers. Surprising, I know.
>>81217943
Nice idealistic example. Too bad you're business is likely going to fail and you're going to become another fucboi of the banks. I don't give a fuck about your little shop, I care about the banks fucking it over or the corporations out competing it.
>>81218024
>Because they are getting MONEY
MONEY IS JUST A PHYSICAL FORM OF VALUE.

VALUE THEY TOOK FROM THE PERSON WHO CREATED THE VALUE.
>So it is going to the guy that made loaves of bread.
Did you have trouble learning set theory as a kid? Could you could differentiate one set of one block from the set of 3 blocks?
>Did that labourer CREATE the capital?
A laborer did.
>>81218090
>I already debunked this several fucking times with the inflation
I disagree my homeboy. Unfortunately you've been forgetting to use Alex's filters and the chemicals have scrambled your mind along with turning you gay

>>81217976
>Believe it's around 40% IIRC.
Study was flawed, as I said.
>No, just past the artificial expiration date
Yes, rotten. Do you expect people to eat that shit, are you retarded?
>or because a new shipment came in and they need room.
Again, the vast majority is from people's HOMEs not from businesses.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/22/40-of-u-s-food-wasted-report-says/
>Most of the waste comes in the home, the report says.

>Well, without state subsidies food probably wouldn't be cheap enough to do that.
It would get a little more expensive but as mass production increases, prices will come back down and people will still throw out bad food, you idiot.

>???
Are you actually denying this?
lol
Yes, lets ship africa our rotten food.
Lets feed more of them and make them breed more, lets cause more poverty and harm.

>No, advances in technology has done that
WRONG you fucking idiot.
Advances in production(with technology researched by companies) allow more food to be produced with less. Just having technology does nothing. It needs to be applied to the production process so food can be produced CHEAPER so customers have CHEAPER food prices and can work LESS HOURS to get MORE FOOD. Holy fuck I can't believe you don't know this. Why are you this dumb?

>>Oh shit, I now get all 12 loaves of bread.
You already admitting the working class ALREADY gets ALL 12 loaves of bread.

>>81217976
>The difference is life isn't profiting off my situation.
So without someone profiting off people they live in horrible poverty with long hours and terrible working condition, and in the current system where people make profit working hours are much reduced and living standards are much much higher?
Got it lol

>I can if it's another human.
Nobody is controlling you except the government, kid.

>first they had to remove any opportunities
Lol the guy that wants to hire you as a dishwasher at his restaurant didn't remove your opportunities first you delusional idiot.

>ENGLISH ENCLOSURES
I don't live in england, never did. This wasn't a problem in america, we had homesteading and lockean property norms.
What do you have to say about that?

>Capitalism only exists because of previous state intervention.
Nah, lol there were plenty of examples of anarcho-capitalism. Big examples in the american midwest. Also markets and currency formed before the first states.

File: THOnK.gif (458KB, 256x256px) Image search: [Google]

458KB, 256x256px

>>81218139
>Too bad you're business is likely going to fail
huh .... it's almost like.... there's a risk to starting a business

>>81218090
>You're tired because you're wrong and refuse to acknowledge what I'm saying.
Nah because it's like 6 AM and this argument has been kinda tedious.
>Economic risk is literally what creates value.
`no`
>Workers simply labouring for the sake of labouring does not create value
Obviously not.
>Labour has to be productive to be valuable
Ya
>the land
How can you own land?
>labor
Which belongs to the worker
>capital
Which is dead labor of previous workers which also belongs to them.
>risk
Doesn't create value. Even if it did, what about when the owner fucks up, the worker loses his job and benefits of 20 years, and the owner fucks up into another venture?

Anyway, I'm tired of arguing, tired of getting fingered by the FBI too. I'd continue arguing but that'd just go on forever and I need to sleep. You get the last word.

Peace out my fav fucboi and don't forget that Bush did 9/11

File: s.jpg (27KB, 508x524px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 508x524px

>it's an 'autistic communist uses real-world examples to try and explain why capitalism is shit but can only defend his own retarded ideology purely theoretically' episode

>>81218139
>[citation neeeded]
This entire thread. My posts.
>You missed my point.
You had none lol.
>It proves that value can only come from labor.
No it doesn't. Without the capitalist there is also no value. Without the sun shining down there is also no value. You could easily say all value comes from those things.
Also even if all value came from labour, the labour in this specific market interaction only comes from the labourer making the bread.
The capital is already bought and sold, it doesn't have "ghost labour" or any other mythical bullshit.
>No, just a natural resource that's useless without machinery.
kek, if this waterfall wasn't here you would have to spend much more labour to create energy, The waterfall created value.

>Most stock market trading is between stockholders.
Firms still raise money by making themselves public on the stock market.
Ignoring the stock market and focusing on simple investment into a private firm my point holds.
>Do you understand how you're going to b
What does this have to do with planning the emergent structure of production?
>YET YOU KEEP DEFENDING IT
I'm only defending it over socialism, it's closer to my ideal system but it still sucks compared to my ideal system.
>More productive than regular companies actually.
lmao if that were true they would DOMINATE the market.
The fact that they don't dominate the market means that they are unproductive and cannot provide lower prices and better products than capitalist firms.
Sorry.
also if these worker co-ops tried to give their employees the "full product of their labour" the firm would fucking COLLAPSE because profits have to be reinvested into the firm. Even ignoring this fact, if the workers got all of the profits and went to spend that money it would simply cause inflation because the working class already consumes 99% of all consumer goods.
lmao EVERY SINGLE TIME IT GOES BACK TO THIS
You NEVER UNDERSTAND THIS SHIT
AND YOU NEVER RESPOND TO ME ON IT

>>81218237
I'm convinced he thinks businesses are natural resources and they just exist without any outside intervention. Like someone got to the first site of a McDonalds and staked their claim on it now that evil capitalist who lucked out on planting his flag on a business gets all the profits while he works all his slaves to the bone.

>>81218139
>MONEY IS JUST A PHYSICAL FORM OF VALUE.
Money is literally just a medium of exchange you can use to buy goods and services.
It "stores" value yes. But it doesn't magically change the number of consumer goods in the economy.
Want to know why the capitalists only consume 1% of all consumer goods? Because they have to SAVE their money. Saving money or what you delusional cucks call "hording" only decreases the price of all other goods and services in the economy. If they gave all this money to the working class the working class will not be better off. Prices would rise and the working class will not be better off whatsoever.

Refute this argument or honestly slit your throat.

>VALUE THEY TOOK FROM THE PERSON WHO CREATED THE VALUE.
Again lol there is no surplus value. Even if it did exist, "getting it back" will not benefit the working class. lol

REFUTE ME OR KILL YOURSELF

>Did you have trouble learning set theory as a kid?
HAHAHAHA
You literally just ADMITTED these loaves GO TO THE WORKING CLASS
Is this breadmaker suddenly not part of the working class?

Which is it then? Are the working class consuming these 11 loaves or what?

Also it doesn't have to be food. Lets say TIRES. Same fucking thing applies.

>A laborer did.
Yes lol but that specific labourer didn't create the capital. Why should that specific labourer be entitled to what is produced with that capital?
Explain yourself.

>I disagree my homeboy.
Lol because you're wrong and you're getting upset over the fact you cannot refute this.
I mean holy fuck it's REALLY simple. Very basic logic even a kindergardener could see.

>>81218253
>Nah because it's like 6 AM and this argument has been kinda tedious.
Nah because you're wrong and you know you're wrong deep down. You literally have nothing at this point.

I guess those 11 loaves of bread just disappear into the void amirite?

>`no`
Yep.

>How can you own land?
"How can you like 'own' land, maaaaan?" *takes bong rip*

>Which is dead labor of previous workers which also belongs to them.
Remember when I refuted this like 10 times and you won't even attempt to refute it because you can't.
AHAHAHHAHAHAHA
>GHOSTS OF DEAD LABOURERS 20 YEARS AGO SOMEHOW MAGICALLY FACTOR INTO THE PRODUCTION TODAY
>MY LABOUR WAS USED WITH CAPITAL TO MAKE THESE 12 LOAVES OF BREAD SO THAT MEANS I'M ALSO ENTITLED TO THE VALUE CREATED BY THE LABOUER THAT MADE THE CAPITAL, EVEN THOUGH I DIDN'T MAKE THE CAPITAL
lolno

>Doesn't create value.
Entrepreneurial risk that is successful creates value.
Risk in and of itself doesn't create value.

>Peace out my fav fucboi and don't forget that Bush did 9/11
Antifa needs to have their skulls stomped in.
:^)

>>81218253
>Which is dead labor of previous workers which also belongs to them.
What?

>>81218511
lol he actually thinks capital that was created 20 years ago has ghost labour that is also owed to the workers working in the factory today

absolute insanity. There's something genetically wrong with these people's brains.

>>81217584
The irish potato famine was caused by the british government restricing the supply of food, it wasn't a naturally occurring thing

t. irish economist

>>81215162
Couldn't agree more, thank you for posting this so that these fucking retards can potentially have their eyes opened.

>>81208447
Around blacks never _________

>>81219091
> pull down your pants

Around coons watch your property

I asked this a few days ago in /ahx/, how is it possible that Derek didn't get murder 1 for his crime? I know Danny says something about not testifying, but because of the brutality/context of curb stomping someone how could he just get 3 years for manslaughter?

>>81220023
>how could he just get 3 years for manslaughter?
>california