Silence

This board aint for kids

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>>80886468
I think it shows how willing people are to die for their faith, call that needless, but it's clearly not needless for them

>>80886493
get off then

>>80886563
Except for the movie shows that the people that died didn't actually have faith, they just worshiped just in case if it ended up being true

>>80886563
the kirishitan's were a suicide by proxy cult who believed dying by another's hands would send them to paladisu.

>>80886412
I am quite sad it bombed horribly at the box office, when I went to see it there was like 4 people in the theater opening night.

Anyway best film of 2016 (second being Moonlight), so much better than Scorsese's last couple of films.

>>80886412
absolute garbage

>>80886412
the problem is those values aren't inherently christian, they were just co-opted by them.
So fuck off you faggot fence sitter

Anybody see Kundun? Going to watch it and it looks similar in some ways.

>>80886845
Nice opinion. My brain probably couldn't handle the intricate thought processes that went into forming this magnificent opinion.

>>80887016
hes not wrong though

>>80886731
no it doesn't, the people were worshipping incorrectly because they couldn't conceive the idea of believing in something that wasn't natural or could be seen, doesn't mean they didn't truly believe in what they perceived as God, the film doesn't make any reference to Hell or any repercussions to Apostasy, so you can assume they are following out of faith not fear, besides the punishments are too great for anyone to want to follow Christianity

>>80886792
doesn't refute what I said, they were just worshipping incorrectly

>>80886819
yeah, the film felt very real, it was a breath of fresh air, I'm tired of seeing films where the main protagonist is some invisible hero, this is more gritty

>>80886892
>the problem is those values aren't inherently christian

look at Christianities history, look up Nero and his treatment of Christians, it is a Christian value to value your spirit over your body

>>80886963
It's shit.

>>80887117
>doesn't refute what I said, they were just worshipping incorrectly

because the jesuits converted people before knowing enough of their language to adequately explain how to worship correctly

>>80886412
To non-christians, the christians in this movie come off as awful people who got what they deserved. no different than telemarketers who cry when they get cursed out for interrupting people during dinner. the samurai were the true heroes of this film

>>80887070
How can we know when none of you mouth-breathing mongoloids put zero effort into substantiating claims.

:^)

>>80887210
What does it matter if their beliefs are shit? Most people I meet have shit unfounded beliefs.

All that matters in this movie is human suffering, compassion and forgiveness.

reminder silence takes place less than a century after the spanish inquisition

>>80887183
yeah, still doesn't refute, it just shows some of the Jesuits weren't very good and they ended up teaching a lot of the Japanese Christianity incorrectly, but they still believed very deeply in their version of Christianity and were willing to die for it

>>80887122
ignored :^)

>>80887307
Reminder that the idea that the Inquisition immediately used torture and killed hundreds of thousands is protestant bullshit.

5000 executions in 300 years of existence is pretty damn low

>>80887210
if your forced to use violence because nothing you say can refute an ideology then does that really make you correct

>>80886468

It should probably be noted that almost every single major figure in the atheist movement is Jewish. You could make a compelling argument that atheism is specifically being pushed by Jews in today's society, and they seem to largely be targeting western Christians and only them.

For example, Sam Harris, Chapman Cohen, David Silverman, Michael Newdow, Gregory Epstein, Sherman Wine, Bill Maher, Eric Kaufmann, and of course, Richard Dawkins's mother has a Jewish surname and was stated to have lived in the only Jewish suburb of the city she grew up in. But he hasn't explicitly named her religion.

But that's only a tiny part of the list. We could discuss the Jewish atheists who aren't pushing atheism so much as atheism-enabling political views like Marxism. For example Soklonikov, Trotsky, Deutscher, Lenin, Uritsky, Kamenev, Zinoviev and Sverdlov.

And what about atheist Jewish public entertainers that constantly run down Christianity? We can go ahead and recycle Bill Maher here and also include Jon Leibowitz, Stephen Fry, Woody Allen, Rob Reiner, Daniel Radcliffe, Larry David, David Silverman, and... I'm sure I'm close to the post cap, so rather than just name the rest of Hollywood, you get the point.

PURE COINCIDENCE though.

>>80886412

Scorsese's best work. Pure Kino.

>>80887314
so in your mind there is nothing wrong with telling people if they believe the sun only rises every three days and they are killed by someone else (as suicide is a sin) they'll go to heaven.

The reality is the jesuits weren't explaining even the most basic tenants of their religion and they didn't care, because the japs were making seemingly correct pantomimes of their rituals and making them feel empowered.

Not only that, the reason there were so many kirishitans is because the first jesuits were literally trading guns to warlords in exchange for said warlords converting their subjects. With torture.

So, yes, I am refuting everything you're saying. Because your claims are coming from a near complete ignorance of the period.

>>80887456
>torture
>executions

...

>>80887575
See, I couldn't tell if it was kino, or merely a kinolacrum seeing as how it borrowed so much from Kurosawa.

>>80887465
>>>/pol/

>>80887590

They had a duty to spread the truth. You're forgetting the evidence and scholars that support the story of Jesus

>His birth
>His teachings
>His followers
>His baptism
>His arrest
>His death

All without a doubt happened as the Bible states.

That all means that the multiple prophecies written (according to historical scholars) centuries before Christ was born all happen to be correct on the time, place, and person.

>let me guess: lucky guesses ayyylmao

>>80887619
Use words retard.

>>80887619


Although the days of having court-appointed lawyers and access to one’s accusers were a long way off, at one time the Spanish Inquisition was widely hailed as the best run, most humane court in Europe. There are records of people committing blasphemy in secular courts so they could have their case would fall under the Inquisition’s jurisdiction. Further, the Inquisition was the first to pronounce Europe’s witch hunt a delusion and prohibited anyone from being tried or burnt for witchcraft (the number of witches killed by the inquisition was less than 100 out of over 125,000 trials).

When the Inquisition found someone guilty of heresy, most of the sentences were not unfair—many simply required the performance of some penitential good works. Heretics were unrepentant threats to the state—not confused, simple folk (in fact, the Inquisition had little impact on the vast majority of people because it simply did not exist in many rural areas). Finally, while verdicts of guilty or not-guilty fell to the inquisitors, the use of violent punishments was up to the secular authorities.

>>80887661
you're off on a tangent that is completely meaningless.

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>>80887632

>I couldn't tell if it was kino

>>80887724
>the Spanish Inquisition was widely hailed as the best run, most humane court in Europe

Because you'd be tortured if you claimed otherwise.

>>80887457
I think a lot of countries regret not putting up more resistance to christian invaders.

>>80887590
you retard I just said that those Jesuits were bad, the main two protagonists were different though, I'm talking about what directly happened in the film, we see two Jesuits land in Japan seemingly thinking that everyone is already Christian, then give out mass and baptisms etc.

You still haven't refuted my point "shows how willing people are to die for their faith", I'm not making an argument for whether the Jesuits were correct or not in teaching wrong, I think the main 2 protagonists had good intentions and made efforts to spread the gospel correctly, and the peasants were willing to die for this faith

>>80887294
> what does it matter if their beliefs are shit?

That's actually the ONLY thing that matters

>>80887812

>be Norwegian
>live in a shithole, basicly mudhut tier
>"muh vikings"
>our only accomplishiments so far is infighting, "breddy gudd :DD" boats and shamanistic shit
>Hvitekrist (White Christ) comes and saves us
>Suddenly we have writing (inb4 muh futhark, runes are retarded), agriculture and society
>a few hundred years later we're amongst the richest countries in the world
>some faggot fedora on a Taiwanese charcoal sketching forum tells us it was bad

Why do you think heathens deserve anything other than ridicule?

>>80887800

Most of the torture and executions attributed to the Church during the various inquisitions didn’t occur at all, and historians now concede that Inquisition torture chambers never existed. Torture was indeed used during some Inquisition trials (hardly uncommon for the court system of the time). The Inquisition, though, had strict rules regarding its use that put it far ahead of its time.

Torture was unauthorized until 20 years after the Inquisition began. It was first authorized by Pope Innocent IV in 1252—not as a mode of punishment, but as a means of discovering truth. It was not to be used to threaten life or cause loss of limb, was to applied only if the accused was uncertain and seemed already convicted by many weighty proofs, and after all other options had been used. When it was used it was not to be used more than once, and for no more than 15 minutes. Unfortunately these rules were sometimes circumvented by creative readings of the rule book. Torture was most cruelly used under the pressure of secular authority (Frederick II, for instance, abused the Inquisition to persecute his personal enemies). So, while torture was used in some cases, the idea of continent-spanning torture and death caused by the Church is simply not the case.

There were no rapes, feet burning, creative torture chambers, iron maidens, etc., and reports show that over 99% of all Inquisition trials did not involve torture at all. Compared to secular courts that decreed the death penalty for damaging shrubs in England, or disembowelment for sheep-stealing in France, the Inquisition was actually far more conservative than the secular Europe of the day.

>>80886412
Do you believe in full stops you fucking pederast?

>>80887840
>the main two protagonists were different though

No, they weren't.

They both very quickly tired of the life in exile they had committed to and their discovery was a direct result of their unwillingness to keep sacrificing their comfort for their faith.

>>80887919
>history didn't happen

...

>>80887881
Saudi Arabia is also one of the richest countries in the world my man, and it really isn't because of their religion

>>80887978

> my prejudice wasnt confirmed, so it must not be true

>>80888031
and a hundred other things you can't say without self-incriminating

>>80887978

Nice not argument bro,

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/16/artsandhumanities.internationaleducationnews

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-11-07/features/8503160976_1_roman-inquisition-power-of-capital-punishment-catholic-heretics

>>80888066
Neither is revising history.

>>80887936
they were different, the film shows them explaining paradise comes after death to a couple who didn't originally understand that because they were taught differently

and one of the main facts that eventually causes the main protagonist to Apostate was when he finds out that the Christians were taught incorrectly, so he was obviously teaching it correctly himself otherwise why would he be shocked by this information

he apostates because he ends up believe that Jesus wants him to to save the peasants

weeaboo neeson character spoonfeeds you the point of the movie at the end.

>>80887724
>>80887919
Genuinely interested, do you have source?

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I liked Japanese actors and what they were willing to do to depict the suffering of their people in that time. Try forcing Gal Gadot to do something like that, fucking no.
And actors even had greasy hands, like they worked in the field. Even under the nails. Every scene was perfect, the contrast between the life in the village and in the city was shown very well.

>>80888164

Several

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revision_of_the_Inquisition

>>80888136
>the main character was different because he did the exact same thing as another jesuit

...

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>>80887210
yeah this.

there is no place in japan, or any other country for that matter, for an invasive middle-eastern abrahamic religion. they fucked up a lot of stuff in nordic europe too, we had a language, a history and a spiritual identity before the christians came and burned away. in fact, many of the so called "values" and virtues of christianity, islam and judaism are repeated throughout the globe - i.e they are not as unique as people think they are. every culture that ever existed has frowned upon murder for example.

>>80888106
>waah evidence doesn't hold my protestant propoganda of Muh Million Martyrs as fact

>>80888328
>waah i can find evidence to support any conclusion on the internet why aren't you taking me seriously

>>80888290
>muh Nordic culture

Killing from the defenseless like rioting niggers, such a honorable culture

>>80888289
no, he learnt Japanese and taught the Bible correctly, he apostatised because his efforts were frivolous (because the Jesuits before him taught Christianity incorrectly) and he was told by Jesus to apostate

>>80887881
these japanese dudes didn't seem like heathens though. the interpeter spoke better english than i do.

>>80888387
>I can't read the multiple articles linked that describe the new findings

Kys you ignorant fag

For people who don't understand, the movie is about people fucking up (the jesuits) and having to be literally tortured and have people tortured because of them before they'll accept any responsibility for their fuckups.

The main character's apostate conversion mirrors that of all the kirishitans. For the kirishitans were originally tortured and threatened with more torture to convert to christianity so their Daimyos could trade for guns from europe. But the kirishitans just made a show of being converted because they feared the alternative (more torture) and wanted the reward (paladisu with no mole toltule).

The main point of the movie is you can't force people to change their minds. Even if they're wrong. Even if you can provide incontrovertible evidence they're wrong.

>>80888457
>he was told by Jesus to apostate

so you didn't understand the movie, that's nice

>>80888457
>he was told by Jesus to apostate

way to miss the point

>>80886819
Why didn't it get any promotional push like Scorsese's other films?

>>80888780
because its anti-trump

>>80887210
im not a christian but it looked like the japs were a bunch of meanies and the christians were just trying to do their thing

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>>80886412
OP needs to watch other Scorsese films like Last Temptation and even Wolf of Wall Street. Wolf is more moral and less religious than Silence, and there's the rub:

"Religious" audiences want superficial confirmation of the letter of the Law but not the Spirit of the Law.

Scorsese is religious and not fundamentalist. Yet religious audiences don't want religious, they want fundamentalist.

OP really needs to watch True Detective also.

>>80888711
>>80888743
in his head you morons, to justify apostatising in order to save the peasants

Passion of The Christ is underrated.

>>80889193
dominant japanese government identified them as a subversive force, a spearhead for occupation from europe

>>80889360
negro that wasn't jesus

>>80889435
And they were right, even if the Christians had the noblest of intentions.

Every ideological skirmish is about power.

>>80889483
I know he pictured it as being Jesus in his head

>>80889193
Dutch protestants fed lies that the Portuguese and Pope would invade Japan.

They really are the spawn of Satan.

>>80889483
then who was it

>>80889567
It was Andrew Garfield's character doing the right thing. The right thing went against his unfounded beliefs, so he had to justify it in his head with the voice of an imagined Jesus.

Spoonfeeding tards is tiring.

>>80889554
to be fair, in the scene where the inquisitor is describing the daimyo's problem, garfield's character responds with essentially the same thing.

The catholic church, at the time, was a purely dominant and authoritative force that used large christian populations in foreign countries to exert control over those countries and the pope was essentially the king of kings.

>>80889624
with that logic everything was imagined

japan was a metaphor of andrew garfields sexual desires

>>80889724
Your logic is bulletproof I cannot argue.

>>80886412
My thoughts? Shit movie. Scorsese hasnt directed anything worthwhile since the Boardwalk Empire pilot. The dialogue is poorly written and feels unnatural and out of place half of the time, not to mention that once again just about everyone speaks english with monotone american english or some cringeworthy meme-accent. Acting is mostly even worse and the only 2 actors that are genuinely applying themselves are Adam Driver and Ciaran Hinds... and i am starting to feel really strong hatred towards Andrew Garfield and his smug faggot face, he is the most talentless joke of an actor currently working and couldnt act his way out of a paper bag. Why anyone actually pays him money to ruin their movies is beyond me.

Tho plot itself is typically overdramatized and retarded and only depicts 1 slice of history in very particular light. And for once i can say that a movie was boring as hell, dancing around the same metaphysical bullshit for 1,5 hours... it wouldnt be so unbearable if the movie actually dealt with anything of substance, but as it stands the spiritual side of things is nowhere to be felt or seen thanks to miserable acting and writing.

3.5/10, and 2 of that is from cinematography.

>>80886412
>Christian values
European values*

>>80889776
see >>80889718

There was/is no supreme leader of buddhism that used/uses converted populations to undermine the power of local rulers.

>>80887724
Btw, it's funny people do not say that Spanish Inquisition followed several centuries of muslim occupation of Spain, slavery etc...

>>80889724
As much as I hate the film, the point that Jesus was his imagination was clear since every single line of voice over (he never stops talking!) is from him. It's terribly hammy and you missed the entire point.

My interpretation is more about the prevalence of symbols within an oppressed society (the wood crucifixes gave me that much) than what's being spoken here, but you're just being a retard

>>80889890
I think you're painting an awfully intellectual picture of the Christian at that time in history, especially a priest, if you think seeing a reflection of Jesus or hearing his voice wasn't well within the realm of imagination.

>>80889977
I think you either replied to the wrong post or you really don't understand what you're reading.

>>80889890
i still think this is stupid

>>80890008
You said hearing imaginary voices was hammy.

hammy
ˈhami/Submit
adjective
1.
informal
(of acting or an actor) exaggerated or over-theatrical.

And I replied it was within the realm of possibility.

:^)

>>80889977
Jesus wouldn't have someone apostate to save earthly lives. Souls and the afterlife has always mattered more.

>>80890118
Jesus is a cunt blind to human suffering then.
What a great man to put on pedestal.

>>80890077
I was talking about the voiceover, though. Need to improve my writing skills.

>>80890163
>divine being takes on the most humiliating and painful suffering
>nah that doesn't count because some nihilist fag online has no values he'd die for

>>80890254
Are you saying if someone puts himself voluntarily through completely needless agonizing shit, he has to authority to put everyone else through it too?

>>80890077
So now I'm leaning towards "don't understand what you're reading."

>>80890505
Save my soul, enlightened one.

>>80890360
1. Not needless
2. You're not forced to be faithful
3. Suffering comes from outer oppression, Jesus isn't calling for people to torture themselves

>>80890742
>outer oppression
Ok I can't even say anything anymore, this is too next level for me. You win.

Maybe one day I'll learn.

>>80890742
>You're not forced to be faithful

the kirishitans were.

>>80890817
What's so difficult to understand?

Christians only suffer martyrdom when groups like the Romans, Japanese, ect oppressed them.

>>80890915
How? They choose not to apostate.

>>80886412
Terrible movie, boring as fuck. Even worse than that Wall Street garbage.

I swear to god Scorsese is the most overrated director. He made two decent/good movies in the 80s and that's it.

>>80890966
Isn't it a little anti-human to consider suffering inflicted by human onto humans "outer oppression"

I'm just a nihilist.

>>80891008
They were tortured to convert in the first place

>>80891113
If that were the case then why were so many faithful once Christianity was banned?

>>80891167
carrot and stick, negro

>>80891068
Not really, just explaining that suffering typically comes from anti Christian forces in the world.

>>80891041
>He made two decent/good movies in the 80s and that's it
Let me guess, Taxi Driver and and Goodfellas because those are the only decent scorseses youve seen?

He has atleast 6 genuinely good movies and several passable ones. That being said Silence was plain bad on so many levels.

>>80891242
You mean every ideology that isn't Christianity fighting for influence is anti-Christian?

That's victim-complex and arrogance.

>>80891211
If you die for your faith I'd say you believed in it regardless of being forced to convert.

They had many chances to apostate and go free.

>>80891300
Considering the Pope makes olive branches to non Catholic religions, no thats not what I mean faggot.

I'm saying groups exist that actively caused Christian suffering. What's so fucking complicated about this?

>>80891449
Too bad "believing" is not basis for anything.

TV priests perform miracles on air, but believing in the show doesn't make it real.

>>80891536
Way to change the topic. I guess you give up your dumb arguement that Khristians were forced to martyr themselves.

>>80891508
Hence I said "fighting for influence".
Thinking those groups have burning hate for YHWH personally instead of just wanting to gain advantage for their own group is grand delusion.

>>80891620
>it can't be both

Right anon, them good pagans were just stoics as they killed and tortured Christians, absolutely no emotion was involved in these persecutions.

>>80891615
The choice was taken from them with tales of paradise and hellfire.

>>80891780
No its not, you have a choice to believe or disbelieve shit.

They believed in Christianity and rejected Buddhist or Shinto beliefs on the afterlife. They believed enough to die for that faith.

Everything was influenced for them to peacefully apostate. Many did in fact do that, some kept to their faith and died as a result.

>>80891870
>choice to believe or disbelieve shit.
You think starved peasants can make educated decisions?

>114 / 5 / 29 / 2
The shittyness of the movie is only outmatched by these 2 idiotic theology/philosophy freshmen having a retarded argument about semantics in a piece of poorly written fiction on an anonymous online imageboard dedicated for tevelision and film discussion.

stop posting please.

>>80891937
Yes, everyone makes choices. Its rather strong of them to stay faithful when the government tells them to give up.

>>80892003
Are you experiencing cognitive dissonance?
Minimize the thread and move on, the big boys are talking.

>>80887636
Nice argument you fucking retard

>>80891615
The topic of the movie is belief. The topic in all religious debate is belief.

One of the points the movie was trying to (but kinda failed to) make is no matter what you do, be it right, wrong, or nothing at all, all you'll hear is silence. Leaving the individual to decide what to believe is right and wrong.

And if your beliefs aren't based on anything, or worse, incorrect interpretations of information, your belief means dick and dying for said beliefs isn't admirable, its just pigheaded.

A point the movie did make admirably is the jesuits were completely and totally out of their depth. The jesuits weren't politicians, soldiers, survivalists, spies, hunters, fishers, farmers, linguists, or anything that would be of actual use. They were just priests. They had no skills for statecraft or infiltration, very tin ears for language and no real fluency in anything but Portuguese, thus had none of the tools necessary to be a positive force in japan. But they, the priests, weren't trying to infiltrate or politic or even really convert. But the church did send them there to do that. As the practice of the church of the time was a sort of bottom-up subversion that eventually would result in top-down influence and control over said nations. The japs saw the game the church was playing and cut it off at the knees.

>>80892225
To be fair your argument was denouncing an entire race of people which is fallacious. There isn't much intelligent discussion to be had.

>>80892441
Oh shit, you commented that jews are a race, now he's writing a 3 full fledged paragraphs long thing with an infographic!

>>80892593
Bring it, I don't give a fuck.

Hurt feelings are the enemy of man-to-man exchange of thoughts.

I don't know if I'm becoming dangerously autistic or not, but the adr lines were jarringly bad sometimes

also andrew garfield wasn't believable

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>>80886412
If it portrayed Christians positively, it would show Jesuit accomplishments rather than simply alluding to them. Every Scorsese character is naive, but these were the first ones who were truly ambitious.

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>>80886819
My theater was more than half full.

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>>80892429
This doesn't make sense though, since the Jesuits had been in Japan for 200 years before thr events of 'Silence'...yet it sounds like they just decided to go one day on a whim. Believe me, the Jesuits were at the very least, skilled linguists.

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>>80888290
This is mexican tier "muh aztec piramids" whining

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>>80889977
>I think you're painting an awfully intellectual picture of the Christian at that time in history, especially a priest
you're a particularly special kind of pretentious ignorant, out of all religious orders, jesuit priests are the most scholarly, they never stop studying and by the time they die many times they end up having multiple doctorates

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>>80889757
agreed anon, that's why I'm so excited to see ghost in the shell instead!

>>80894365
How many doctorates do I need before I start hearing the voice of Jesus?

>>80886412
Shit film.
Peaks with the ocean crucifix, becoming a repetitive foot stamping and comical kijichiro showing up 5 or more times only to scamper off. Pacing and editing both fucked, ambiguity of the ending in the book ruined by putting a cross in his coffin basket, sound issues as well, most apparent with adam driver in the ocean and the mic is popping.


I would apostatize to spare anyone 3 hours of tedium that this was.

>>80894424
how is that a response to the original point where you said priests were not "intellectual"?

>>80894408
>ghost in the shell
>Rupert Sanders
Why on earth would anybody be excited about unnecessary hollywoodized remake directed by literal nobody?

>>80894502
>ambiguity of the ending in the book ruined by putting a cross in his coffin basket

Why? It's not like the priest crawled into the basked with a cross. Someone put it there.

>>80894525
The education system was controlled by the church. Education based on doctrine isn't education.

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>>80894598
http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/education/catholic-contributions/the-catholic-church-and-the-creation-of-the-university.html

>>80894598
>Education based on doctrine isn't education.

You see, anon, you're coming off as a whooping retard with that shit. The church was the only half valuable way of information preservation in the Old Regime, and they were the only stament that could call itself scholar outside some kings here and there, like Alfonso X. To bring post-Illustration burgeois ideology to the pre-industrial era is just plain stupid.

>>80894711
>>80894805
I never argued nothing good has ever come out of christianity and I suppose priests were more educated compared to the dirty peasants.

But in a system that puts doctrine above all else, the observations come out skewed every time because they have to fall in line with the scripture.

>>80886412
This was a great fucking film. Also, don't generalize "Christians" with Jesuits. The Jesuit order is a branch of the Roman Catholic Church. They're highly devout and specialized. Their educational and training backgrounds are immense, especially for their priests. They're essentially for the Catholic Church what Special Forces are to the US Military, so sending them to die in Japan is like unheard of. That's what you have to appreciate about the quest. They are fucking dedicated to Christianity and converting souls. Not like your average town minister who attended a mediocre university before a few out of country home-builds and weekend seminars preceding his marriage to his hog-wife that popped out x2.5 kids with his career at a local church for 40k a year and voting Republican when he doesn't become a millionaire from it. The Jesuits are much harder and disciplined.

To spend your life in Japan as a Christain in disguise as Buddhist, researching and advancing the progress of science and knowledge in the hopes that in doing so the society may come into Jesus Christ through that understanding takes FUCKING BALLS.

>>80895082
For a board filled with black dicks, borderline CP and general hate, there sure is a lot of resonance with Jesus.

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>>80894948
>the observations come out skewed every time because they have to fall in line with the scripture.
who hypothesized the big bang model anon?

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>>80894948
>I never argued nothing good has ever come out of christianity and I suppose priests were more educated compared to the dirty peasants.
No -- you're not getting it yet. The priests were educated mainly in comparison with merchants and kings.

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>>80895208
Jesus? God?

>>80895349
Ok so how long are you going pintpoint how smart the priests were? Their knowledge was nothing compared to today and the whole perspective to the Christians behaving like retards in the film is our perspective today.

>>80894202

Mexicans never whine about this though, Jamal.

>>80894948
What you don't understand about the Jesuit Order is that they're probably the most secular of all religiously-affiliated programs. It is their duty to be scholarly and well-educated in religious texts, which means learning both classical tongues of Latin and Greek, as well as contemporary dialects, and modern science so that they can out-navigate and maneuver opposing political entities for the sake of the Catholic Church. They're like fucking X-men, dude. Their sole focus is power and conversion through power. That is why the Japanese burned them alive and cut their heads off. The Japanese knew that first came the priests and then came the armed forces.

>>80895552
You're not secular enough if you can't take a sip of water from the stream without seeing the image of the savior.

>>80894948
>I suppose priests were more educated compared to the dirty peasants.
learn about the issue first, then talk shit.
https://www.sjnen.org/page.aspx?pid=227

>>80895199
I'm not Christian, I just admire the refined character of these people. It means a lot for a person to dedicate decades of their life into learning text only to convert a few dozen souls in a jungle somewhere. I admire that dedication the same way I would an atheistic, schizophrenic, and junk-addicted genius artist.

>>80895480
Because you have to see the modern university as an extension of the medieval one. It's pointless to say that medieval knowledge was inferior to today's knowledge, it's like saying Herodotus is inferior to a modern historian, or Isaac Newton is inferior to today's scientists.

>>80895623
Keep hammering the Christian monopoly on the education into my head.

It doesn't change the fact that immovable, inflexible dogma at the core of teaching leads to premeditated falsehood.

There's a reason why teachers aren't wearing wizard robes today.

>>80895480
>Their knowledge was nothing compared to today
what? in engineering?

why do kids think of history in such simplistic terms, time moves one way, but history doesn't. Do you really think you're smarter than any person in the past simply because they didn't live in the modern day? would you say you're smarter than Aristotle? just to give an example

>>80895598
You are a straight up tragedy at the intersection of arrogance and ignorance and I appreciate not having to deal with idiots like yourself in person. I'll take 100k+ of debt if it means not belittling myself with arguments to a childish, non-researched, pseudo-intellectual hack.

Learn your historical context before speaking and maybe you'll be able to front for at least a minute that you have a LIGHT grasp on what is being discussed.

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>>80895731
the only inflexible dogma I see here is yours, friendo.

>>80895796
Are you implying the Bible is flexible? The words are the only thing to substantiate the belief.

Are you arrogant enough to change the word of God?

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>>80895389
Georges Lemaitre

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>>80895858
holy fuck, do you even know what biblical hermeneutics and exegesis are?

Real talk, though, scholasticism facilitated the survival of classical documents and language responsible for the renaissance and transition into modernity that we know today; I.e. empirical science, medicine, technologic, etc. If it hadn't been for the institutions of the church, for all of their flaws, we might still be living as peasants under feudal law or as Russian serfs..

>>80896010
Fancy words for perverting the word of God.

Anyone reinterpreting the word of God must first be so full of shit that they consider themselves, a mere man, capable of reinterpreting God.

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>>80896105
who wrote the bible? who compiled it? what language does God speak with?

better yet, if god doesn't exist, why are you so scandalized if somebody tries to study the bible if the first place? If anybody would require respect within that standard it would be me, not you.

That being said, you're just fucking annoyingly ignorant. Catholicism isn't solely based on the Scripture, it's those protestant heretics the ones the adhere to Sola Scriptura. You're still talking attempting to talk about Jesuit priests here, right?

>>80896373
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCKwtUXyU1k&t=1s

>believes in a man in the sky
>thinks knowing the difference between denominations validates his argument

eyy take a page from the bible and crucify yourself please

>>80896084
The transition from commentary on doctrine toward Aquinas's system of questioning is probably key there. The fall of the Feudal order is more frequently credited to the early Renaissance or to Protestant theologians, but there's a lot of reason to consider those more internal Western movements.

>>80886412
I thought it was pretty good. It was painful to watch though.

>>80896849
Protestant theology came too late for that, but the beginning of the modern era with the discovery of the Americas or the fall of Constantinople seem about right to me. At that time Europe got an influx of wealth that made expansionism inevitable and the social system was unable to cope.

The early renaissance was important for the intellectual development of the values that would lead to the modern age, but the technology wasn't there yet to shake up the political order.

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>>80896710
>gives plebbit tier generic objection to religion #49
>surprised when it doesn't work
learn how to argue m8

>let's have all the white actors speak english with a vaguely spanish accent in order to pass them off as 17th century portuguese priests
it was all shit from there on. and i like how liam neeson didn't even try

>>80893819
>doesn't understand something
>hell, doesn't even read it all
>claims it doesn't make sense

...

the jesuits were converting people before understanding their language. The local lords went along with this because it opened up trade for advanced weaponry (guns). Once the warring lords period ended, the dominant government correctly identified the christian converts as a subversive force.

>>80894559
it was the cross he was given near the start of the movie that he carried with him the entire movie.

no one put it there.

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>>80896710
When will you leave /tv/ and die? It's been months and you've still been shilling this cancer.

I know most anons have unfulfilling lives, but you take it to a new level. Do you really have nothing better to do? Fuck, when masturbation is legitimately a better use of your time than what you're doing now, you really need to re-evaluate what went wrong in your life to bring you here.

>>80897169
Yes that's a more standard view, I was including Hussite theology as a kind of Proto-Protestantism.

>>80886412
Is Andrew Garfield's accent as bad as it is in the trailer? I feel like that would ruin the movie for me

>>80898248

It is. His acting is shit as well.

I seriously don't understand how he keeps getting work.