/who/ - Doctor Who General

last thread >>80773382

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someone tweet this

>>80806210
Looks like vandalism was reverted, if you saved the page at all.

Dalek story ratings (as requested by anon)

"Dalek" (S1)- 8.63
"Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways" (S1)- 6.81 & 6.91
"Army of Ghosts/Doomsday" (S2)- 8.19 & 8.22
"Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks" (S3)- 6.69 & 6.71
"The Stolen Earth/Journey's End" (S4)- 8.78 and 10.57
"Victory of the Daleks" (S5)- 8.21
"Wedding of River Song" (S6)- 7.67
"Asylum of the Daleks" (S7)- 8.33
"Into the Dalek" (S8)- 7.29
"The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar" (S9)- 6.54 & 5.71

>>80806210
On one hand, this would be amazing. On the other hand, I want my Hayley waifu to start landing some parts that are a bit more mainstream successful.

Still think she'd make a great 13 though.

The Pilot
Smile
Thin Ice
Knock, Knock
Oxygen
Extremis
The Perished
Truth
Queen of Mars
Eaters of Light
The Converted
Steel Skinned

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>>80806210
FITE ME.JPG

>>80806502
>thirteenth

>>80806210
>>80806502
But Joanna Lumley's had Thirteenth Doctor on her page since the early days of Wikipedia.

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>>80806385
>"Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways" (S1)- 6.81 & 6.91
>"Army of Ghosts/Doomsday" (S2)- 8.19 & 8.22

>>80806442
Hayley is in her mid 30s. She's already had a network vehicle, and it failed. She's not going to become a Hollywood superstar. And that doesn't seem to bother her.

Meanwhile, being the Doctor would give her a lasting fandom. People pay to go on cruises just to meet Sylvester McCoy at 73. You think anyone does that for a guy who was on a major network sitcom for three years in the late 80s, or a couple big movie roles?

>>80806210
I forgot she was in Black Mirror. And I watched that episode, just didn't recognize her from other stuff.

She's got good range, is what I spose I'm trying to say.

>>80806874
That's a good point. I just want to see her in a role that she enjoys and also that is commercially successful, but Doctor Who could potentially be that for her with the right writers.

>>80806916
it's amazing just how different she can look in different roles. She looks so different from her usual self when she's dressed as Peggy Carter, too. Just a versatile look to her, I guess.

im going to be so disappointed if it isnt Hayley but we could be surprised

>>80807072
depends who it is instead. I'm not hyped for kris marshall but there are plenty of others I'd be excited to see

This show is for gays and tumblrites, what do you guys see in it? Genuine question.

>>80807110
Agreed. For me, Kris Marshall would be a lot less exciting than Hayley, but there are at least a dozen people—plus probably even more that I haven't thought of or may not even know—who would be great Doctors and very different from the last four and I'd be just as hyped for them as I would for her.

>>80806385
Holy shit, those ratings are up and down like a yo-yo.

>>80807110
>>80807238
I agree!

>>80807209
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9P4SxtphJ4

Seriously, it's partly nostalgia, but mainly that there really is no other franchise that even attempts to do what Doctor Who does, even if it doesn't always succeed. I've been watching it since before those Tumblrinas were born, and I don't really care that for a few years it intersected with what they were looking for.

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>>80807209
Weird adventures into history and other planets. It's not that complicated.

There's a club scene in the Pilot where Bill and Heather are dancing, stalked by a creepy shadow. The Doctor turns up. 'Too Shy' plays in the background.

>>80807022
If she's cast as 13th Doctor, and it's a big IF, have to admit I wouldn't be disappointed. Not sure how the vehemently anti-female Doctor Who "fans" would react however.

>>80807493
I think the thing people forget is, if you're enough of a fan of Doctor Who to have strong opinions about who should be cast next, it'd take a hell of a lot to get you to stop watching.

>>80807493
>Not sure how the vehemently anti-female Doctor Who "fans" would react however.
They'd hate it, of course.

But who cares? It might affect /who/ because we're on 4chan, but it won't affect the show, or its ratings, or fandom in general, because they're a tiny minority that nobody else listens to.

(And of course the same is true for the people who claim they'll drop the show if the next Doctor is another white English male. Whether they drop it or not, they won't affect the show, the ratings, or fandom in general, because they're also a tiny minority that nobody cares about, except for the equally tiny minority of anti-female fans.)

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>>80807487
>'Too Shy' plays in the background.
Because Limahl is the Thirteenth Doctor.

Was on the fence about Kris Marshall til I saw some bits of him in Death in Paradise. Completely changed my mind. He has a fantastic voice and a Doctor-esque charisma, I'd suggest giving it a look, I think he'd be perfect for the part

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>>80807209
It's an addiction. Start watching and you get hooked, whether you like it or not.

>>80807585
I remember a few weeks into Enterprise, my grandmother called me up and said "The Vulcan council don't act like proper Vulcans. I'm done with this shit." And she stopped watching Star Trek, after having been a huge fan since the middle of TOS S1, and having spent the last 5 or however many years defending Voyager and the TNG movies to me.

I'm pretty sure it was a "last straw" situation for her. The franchise had drifted away from what she wanted out of it for years, but she was too big a fan to give up on it, and whatever the Vulcan council did that pissed her off so much, it was just the excuse she was waiting for.

So there could be people out there who'd react to Kris Marshall or Hayley Atwell or whoever the same way.

>>80807605
>but it won't affect the show, or its ratings, or fandom in general, because they're a tiny minority that nobody else listens to.

Tell that to /pol/ & the orangutan they got elected president.

A female Doctor is actually not as universally desired among female fans as you might expect.

>>80807747
I like Kris Marshall a lot as an actor, but he really doesn't feel like an exciting Doctor to me.

If he gets the job, obviously I'll give him a chance. As a kid, I couldn't imagine how Peter Davison could be the Doctor. And when Matt Smith was announced, I didn't even know who he was.

https://youtu.be/TFgWc7Vyols
Regeneration sound

>>80808019
>A female Doctor is actually not as universally desired among female fans as you might expect.
Where did you get the idea that I think all female fans demand a female Doctor? That's almost as close as possible to the exact opposite of what I actually said.

The minority of fans that demand a female Doctor is just as small and inconsequential as the minority of fans that demand a male Doctor.

And /pol/ didn't get Donald Trump elected. The same idiots elected Reagan and W before him. Americans are just too stupid for democracy.

>>80807989
Is your granny still around? If not, did she ever find anything redeemable about Star Trek? Did she ever get back into it?

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>>80808264
>elected Reagan
>idiots

>>80808264
t. leftist cuck

>>80808314
We never talked about Star Trek again, and she died before the Abrams reboot.

www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/doctorwho/entries/33325b86-4da6-485d-a35e-c068ee297986

Will someone be able to record it

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>>80808264
>That's almost as close as possible to the exact opposite of what I actually said.

So you believe that all male fans want a female Doctor?

ok....

HOLY SHIT GUYS
TURN ON /tv/
/who/ IS DEAD

New doctor is being revealed in "Doctor Who Extra: Thirteen" on BBC1 April 1st or 2nd. Watch the schedule. Hearing they're going to say Mastermind is on at that time before announcing it.
Spoilers: i've been told its Jonathan Bailey

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Are British Japs not top-tier cute?

>>80810663
Mastermind is not on BBC1 either of those days.

>>80810706
She's also surprisingly thicc too

>>80810847
BBC 1 schedule for April 1st/2nd hasnt been announced m8

>>80811490
The schedule up until the 4th has been announced.
http://www.radiotimes.com/tv/tv-listings/?sd=01-04-2017%2023:00

/who/ is dead tonight

>>80813021
>tonight

Anyone want a stream? I'll set it up. Just tell me what you wanna see.

I'm thinking that I'm gonna stream either 2nd Doctor stuff or series 1. But you guys decide. /Who/ seems dead tonight but I'm hoping people will hop in over the course of the night. And I have got a lot of time for the first time in a very long time.

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Colin was pretty alpha.

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The DVD is a ot less explicit though

>>80813538
>>80813579
huh
It seems like Colin's life wasn't so bad after all

>>80806048

I really don't like what Moffat did to Doctor Who. Yeah RTD had faults, but there were a lot more quality episodes under his reign. I'm guessing this next guy BBC got is going to be even worse.

>>80814603
>there were a lot more quality episodes under his reign
like what?

>>80814603
I really don't like what Chibnall did to Doctor Who. Yeah Moffat had faults, but there were a lot more quality episodes under his reign. I'm guessing this next guy BBC got is going to be even worse.

>>80814643
Like Blink. That one was awesome. Why didn't Moffat hire that guy to write for him like RTD did?

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>>80814603
>there were a lot more quality episodes under his reign

>>80814603
I really don't like what Letts did to Doctor Who. Yeah Sherwin had his faults, but there were a lot more quality episodes under his reign. I'm guessing this next guy the BBC got is going to be even worse

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Hello?

>>80814643

RTD top tier

Dalek
Props for making Daleks halfway scary again
Father's Day
RTD era at its best, using time travel to examine human experience, some properly tear-jerking stuff
Empty Child/ Doctor Dances
Best Moffat's ever done, story, characters, proper mystery
School Reunion
Nice stuff acknowledging Doctor's relationships with companions
Rise of the Cybermen/ Age of Steel
Probably the only time in NuWho the cybermen have been done half-right - loss of humanity, tragedy, etc
Impossible Planet/ The Satan Pit
"Don't turn around, Toby" - dat smile, dat theme
Gridlock
Irish catman is great fun
Human Nature/ Family of Blood
Only time Doctor Who's actually acknowledged gender and race properly in a historical setting, and the only time the historical setting has been used properly to show people a window into a different, way more fucked up time
Utopia/ Sound of Drums/ Last of the Time Lords
Don't give a fuck about Jesus Doctor, the only RTD reset that's actually built into the plot from the start, AND makes sense in terms of the Master's character. Best RTD finale, most hype, most fun.
Planet of the Ood
Deep stuff about slavery and exploitation and the human spirit and all that shizz
Midnight
Chilling monster, how fear and ignorance drives good, smart people to do really bad things
Turn Left
Great performance by Cath Tate, relationships feel real, good stuff about humanity coming together and breaking apart when faced with disaster
The Waters of Mars
Time Lord Victorious

>>80817234
I really don't like what Lambert did to Doctor Who. Yeah nonexistence had his faults, but there were a lot more quality episodes under its reign. I'm guessing this next guy the BBC got is going to be even worse.

>>80814643
Moffat top tier

Moffat
Amy's Choice
Smart deconstruction of the Doctor's personality/ character, not the Doctor as a symbol for a change - who the Doctor is, not what his name is supposed to mean or not mean
Vincent and the Doctor
Good stuff about depression, feels
The Doctor's Wife
Some trippy concepts
A Town Called Mercy
Probably the only good episode they've ever done set in America
The Power of Three
Nice speech about the size and scale of time and space , Brian's Log
Rings of Akhaten
Cool speech, sorta feelsy
Hide
Spooky, nice message about monsters being natural/ scientific phenomena distorted through superstition
Into the Dalek
It's a better version of Dalek
Listen
The idea that the monsters could just be figments of our imagination is cool

>>80817490
I really don't like what Doctor Who did to Doctor Who. Yeah Doctor Who had its faults, but there were a lot more quality episodes under its reign. I'm guessing this next Doctor Who the BBC got is going to be even worse

>>80817519
>Rings of Akhaten
>Cool speech, sorta feelsy

>not including Heaven Sent
peak pleb
stop posting anytime

>>80817519
Hide was good until the 'IT'S A LOVE STORY' retardation at the end

>>80817463
>>80817519
I don't like how you organised these

>>80817463
>Planet of the Ood
>Deep stuff about slavery and exploitation and the human spirit and all that shizz

>DONNA: Oi! I haven't got slaves!
>DOCTOR: Who d'you think made your clothes?
>DONNA: Is that why you travel round with a human at your side? It's not so you can show them the wonders of the universe, it's so you can take cheap shots?
>DOCTOR: Sorry.

It's hard to think of another story in any medium ever that undercut its alleged message that badly.

Moffat top tier
>Eleventh hour
>A good man goes to war
>Day of the doctor
>Listen
>Mummy on the orient express
>Flatline
>Heaven sent

>>80817599
Heaven Sent gets props for existential horror - I think it effectively communicates the horror of eternity/ infinity in a really shocking, disturbing way - but long stretches of the episode were dull, uninteresting and unengaging precisely because it hinges around the final twist/ revelation.

It's also a problem that Moffat has this retarded idea that brainwaves = soul, which is an issue because he's not interested in exploring the fact that the Doctor is now dead. The one in Hell Bent and the Weddings of River Song is a carbon copy made from a 3D printer. The man who's adventures we've followed for 12 regenerations is gone. His consciousness was terminated.

It doesn't help that Heaven Sent is not really a stand-alone episode, and as a result, you have to consider it as part of one story along with Hell Bent - which re-introduced some of the worst excesses of the Matt Smith era - the idea that the Doctor is a really clever man who's really dangerous and really amazing and really impressive, and yet, for some reason, needs to monologue at length about how scary and intimidating and epic he is.

It's also pretty annoying that the Time Lords have become a bunch of doe-eyed fangirls who are now besotted with the Doctor, and look at him with awe and respect and adoration. It just reeks of Mary-Sue-ism, it's the same problem that befell River Song. All she was there to do was to moon and simper over the Doctor and tell the audience how simply super and amazing he is because Moffat doesn't know how to show the audience that he's all those things.

Just my two cents though.

>>80817631
What's wrong with that? Taking the supposed horror and making it sympathetic is a very Doctor thing

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>>80818329
>long stretches of the episode were dull, uninteresting and unengaging

it really is a pleb filter isn't it

>>80818329
>The man who's adventures we've followed for 12 regenerations is gone
the first doctor also teleported, you know

>>80817716
>It's hard to think of another story in any medium ever that undercut its alleged message that badly.
No, that actually is the message.

Actual slavery is bad, you guys. But the Chinese government forcing 12-year-old girls to work for an American corporation under near-slavery conditions to undercut European competition isn't technically slavery. So go shop at H&M today!

It's the perfect story for the New Labour generation, salving your first-world guilt just as well as real Labour did, but without forcing you to make any hard choices.

>>80818329
>brainwaves = soul
there is no science that supports the concept of a soul

>>80817716
Yeah, it's a wonky line, but it serves a good point, though, which is that Donna could be doing the exact same thing as the people who buy the Ood.

DONNA
If people back on Earth... knew what was going on here...

SOLANA
Oh, don't be so stupid. Of course they know.

DONNA
They know how you treat the Ood?

SOLANA
They don't ask. Same thing.

It's a nice way of nudging people to stop and think, "Well, shit, I don't ask either" - but also, wage slavery isn't quite the same thing as the forced mutilation and the dehumanisation of an entire species. I feel like Planet of the Ood is a good exaggerated metaphor for colonialism and the old slave trade. The Ood are given numbers instead of names, forced to speak an alien language, and have their memories (re: culture) destroyed - (you probably know all this, but I guess I like saying it anyway). Wage slavery is different because, in that analogy, it would be Ood exploiting other Ood. If the episode had a message, I would've said it was "Ask".

>>80818329
>this retarded idea that brainwaves = soul
Except that brainwaves = soul is what every scientist and most respectable philosophers believe, and everyone who attempts to argue that "there's got to be something more" is just talking in circles until they define "soul" as "something that doesn't actually affect your thoughts or your feelings or your decisions in any way and probably isn't even affected by them but it still exists."

>The one in Hell Bent and the Weddings of River Song is a carbon copy made from a 3D printer.
Not a single atom that was in your body when you were born is still in your body today. You're just a zillionth-generation carbon copy of your original self. And you haven't even been transmatted, unlike the Doctor.

>>80818456
It's a fair point, and likely it was the kind of teleportation where matter is broken down and re-assembled - but I don't think classic Who's lack of interest in exploring that is excusable either, tbf.

>>80818664
It's mostly a matter of 'that shit is depressing and existential as fuck so we'd rather not go there"

>>80818504
Yeah, but that's not what I'm trying to argue - Moffat agrees with you. His idea is that IF there's such a thing that COULD be classified as a soul, it'd be a person's brainwaves - the pattern of their thought's and memories, presumably? I'm not really sure what he means, but ultimately, he's not interested in the existential dilemma this provokes - if a person is created from their brainwaves, then that means you could copy them, kill them, and make a clone - and by definition, that'd be the exact same person.

>>80818593
Continuity of consciousness. Also, are you sure you mean atom, or do you mean "cell", as distinct from an atom?

>>80818593
Just to clarify - I'm not suggesting that there IS a human soul that's some kind of ghost-thing that hangs around your body, I do believe that -consciousness- is the equivalent of a soul, and I'm fine with that. The idea that brain waves, though - something you can scan and upload and copy and download - is a person I'm not ok with. River Song died in the library. The fact that there's a digital copy of her running around doesn't change the fact she's fucking dead.

>>80818579
>Wage slavery is different
But we're not just talking about wage slavery in the Marxist sense here. Donna's clothes aren't made by some woman in Manchester who'd like to make a little more money or find a more fulfilling career, they're made by anonymous teenagers working under armed guards in sweatshops in third-world countries.

The story wants us to recognize that colonial exploitation is much worse than modern industrialised capitalism, but at the same time it goes out of its way to tell us that sweatshops are not colonial exploitation, only something that happened in the past, and in fantasy, could ever really count. So you don't have to worry, and anyone who tries to make you feel guilty is being unfair and should apologize.

>>80818776
>Continuity of consciousness
consciousness is just atoms arranged in a certain way to make up a brain with certain memories and thoughts. theoretically there is nothing to prevent making an exact copy of someone's consciousness if you were able to replicate the same atomic structure

>>80818840
in what way is consciousness different to brainwaves?

>>80818776
You've clarified what you're not trying to argue, but now I don't understand what you _are_ trying to argue.

It seems like your problem is that you agree that consciousness is just a pattern, and you don't like the fact that this means there are problems for all of our intuitions about identity. But that's a problem with real life, and Star Trek, and every post-cyberpunk novel, and so on, not a problem specifically for Moffat Doctor Who.

Sure, you can write good stories around those problems—Greg Bear has one. And you can write bad stories too—like that Star Trek where Kirk splits into Good Kirk and Evil Kirk. But it's not the only interesting thing about transporters or uploading or other such things, so why do you think every story that mentions anything like that has to be a story about duplicated people or discontinuous people?

are cybermen the lamest reoccurring enemies?

>>80818852

I don't feel like it went out of its way to say that sweatshops are not colonial exploitation - after all, it's a very brief exchange, not something that's brought up repeatedly to disavow responsibility. But the Doctor -does- say "Things haven't changed that much" and then explicitly compares sweatshop labour to slavery - I think it can be read both ways.

I don't disagree, though - if the Doctor hadn't apologised, or just shrugged and gone "meh" - as in the, point still stands, it could've been sold better. Donna looks troubled, etc - but the problem is, you can't really follow up on that, unless you have an episode focused on Donna's decision not to shop at primark any more.

There's also such a thing as degrees of complicity - Donna's not rich - and granted, I haven't done my research here - but going on the assumption cheap prices are made possible through exploitation, how does she clothe herself if she doesn't go for budget fashionwear? I'm not stating the situation's anywhere as simple as that, but it kinda reminds me of when Jamie Oliver used to go around telling off the poor for buying factory farmed food - and then some working-class, bread-line mum had a go at him because the factory-farm meat was cheaper than free-range. For some people, ethics is a luxury, and I don't know how you represent that in a sci-fi show like Doctor Who. There's only so much it can do.

>>80818840
>River Song died in the library. The fact that there's a digital copy of her running around doesn't change the fact she's fucking dead.
I'd actually be inclined to agree with you on this, but what's created in Heaven Sent's teleporter is a real flesh and blood Doctor identical to the original. I don't know how you could say it's a different person.

>>80819126
most recurring enemies these days are shit or badly handled.

>>80818776
>Continuity of consciousness.
So whenever you get anesthetised—or just go to sleep for the night—you wake up as a different person?

>Also, are you sure you mean atom, or do you mean "cell", as distinct from an atom?
Definitely. You've got plenty of cells that you've had since childhood. Your body stops killing and replacing neurons in the optic nerve, for example, a few months after birth. But within each of those cells, they're constantly breaking down molecules and rebuilding equivalent molecules out of new atoms.

It's probably a bit of an exaggeration to say you have none of the same atoms—lots of the calcium atoms at the center of your bones have probably been there for most of your life. But the average phosphorous atom in an ATP molecule somewhere in one of your muscles was probably part of something you ate yesterday, and the average oxygen atom probably part of something you inhaled.

>>80819126
They definitely are, I don't think I've ever enjoyed a nu-cybermen episode, but also this >>80819304

>>80819112
Because Heaven Sent didn't just mention the concept, it based the entire story on it. This wasn't a throwaway mention. The Doctor died, and was copied, billions of times. It was "The Prestige" of Doctor Who, but "The Prestige" actually acknowledged the horror of it, and I don't think Heaven Sent did.

Also, I'm indifferent to the fact that this means there are problems for our intuitions of identity - it's simply a fact. It's not a personal objection to the idea of our identity being a composite between thought, feeling, memory, instinct, predilection, etc, and that theoretically it can be replicated.

But this isn't a problem for real life, it's a problem for sci-fi, and it's specifically a problem for Moffat's Doctor Who if he bases entire stories around the concept and then neglects to even consider the existential dilemma this proposes. You can't set up an entire episode on a premise which you then fail to explore. That'd be like making Blade Runner an action movie where the "tears in rain" speech is replaced by a man punching a robot to death.

"But what if these robots have feelings, Rick Deckard?"

"The only feeling they're gonna know when I'm done with them is PAAAAAAAAIN."

>>80819180
>I don't know how you represent that in a sci-fi show like Doctor Who
Sure. But if you can't follow up on it, don't bring it up—and if you must bring it up anyway, don't immediately apologise for doing so. That changes the message from "Ask" to "Demand that other people ask, but if anyone tells you to look at your own life, they're being mean and should apologise, because you are doing nothing wrong, loyal consumer".

Unless the other anon was right and "ethics is a luxury" isn't just a complexity they didn't want to get into, but the actual message of the episode. I'm not that cynical—I think they just did that accidentally through bad writing, not as propaganda for exploitation.

>>80819342

I've never really bought that consciousness is terminated by sleep, since we dream, and we're clearly conscious on -some- level since couples don't tend to wake up in a morning bruised and broken from last night's tossing and turning.

I just don't like to think about anesthesia or resuscitation, ahaha. I guess I feel, illogically or not, that it's different if it's the same brain that's being rebooted? But, yeah, the conscious part of the mind is being switched off and then back on again and fuck me that's creepy. We're all just fucking zombies.

>>80819510
But the existential horror doesn't come from "what if these are all really the Doctor?", it comes from assuming they are really the Doctor, and following the implication that this means the Doctor is going through billions of lifetimes of hell.

Raising the question would just make it far less horrifying, not more. "Oh, well, maybe in a sense he remembers those past lives, but they still aren't really him, so the guy we're watching now didn't go through all that hell, he only experienced the last few hours of it."

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>have 3 page essay due tomorrow
>can't stop watching doctor who

>>80819679
That's what I thought, though. The guy clearly doesn't go through billions of lifetimes of hell, he goes through a stressful couple of hours then lands a sucker punch which shatters a diamond wall. He comes out feeling a bit breathless and with hurty fingers.

I mean, I guess if you analyse the concept to death, nothing in the realm of fantasy or sci-fi holds up - for me, the horror was less "a billion life-times of hell" but just, literally - "I am able to conceive of eternity through the metaphor of punching through impenetrable diamond."

But I wish -somebody- would ask the question, y'know? "So they just - you just got copied, over, and over, and over again -" if at least Clara was disturbed that there's been umpteen trillion Doctor clones running around, but as you say, the horror is supposed to be a "billion lifetimes of hell" which really makes no fucking sense.

I'm pretty sure Clara asks the Doctor if he remembers the four billiion years, and he implies that he does -

So why'd he fuck around having to re-discover everything every time instead of just toddling up to the diamond wall in the first place?

The central concept of the episode is self-defeating.

>>80819644
>I've never really bought that consciousness is terminated by sleep, since we dream
We dream for a few minutes at a time (well, sometimes up to 45 minutes, but that doesn't help) with long gaps in between. So that just means you're dying and being replaced multiple times each night, not just once.

>and we're clearly conscious on -some- level since couples don't tend to wake up in a morning bruised and broken from last night's tossing and turning
That has nothing to do with consciousness. You're not conscious of breathing most of the time, but you don't keep dying of asphyxiation. (I'll bet you are conscious of breathing for a minute or so after reading this, though…)

>I just don't like to think about anesthesia or resuscitation, ahaha. I guess I feel, illogically or not, that it's different if it's the same brain that's being rebooted?
Which only proves that our intuitions about consciousness are broken.

>But, yeah, the conscious part of the mind is being switched off and then back on again and fuck me that's creepy. We're all just fucking zombies.
Except that we're not fucking zombies. We make choices based on reason and emotion and some kind of "free will" (although our intuitive notion of that is even more broken than "consciousness"). So consciousness definitely exists and is important whether or not it's the magic soul light we intuitively expect it to be.

Which is a good thing, because that magic soul light is not just impossible, but not even a coherent idea once you really think about it.

>>80818929
I guess I define it differently because I don't know what brainwaves are. Like, what the fuck are brainwaves? Is it a neural oscillation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_oscillation

Is a neural oscillation the physical manifestation of a thought? An electrical impulse shooting through synapses? Or could it just be a sensation?

I guess I just mean I find brainwaves kinda vague. If we are re-constructed from our memories, for example, if we're rebooted everyday, then replicating a brainwave doesn't make a lot of sense if memory isn't an active part of that...neural patterning, or whatever.

>>80819979
When I said zombies, I was joking, but what I mean is, if you define life as -consciousness-, the experience of life, and consciousness is terminated when we sleep, then everything we are doesn't last longer than a day, and we die every night to be brought back to life when we wake up. Our personalities are rendered null through sleep - and operating by that metaphor, we are undead - thus, zombies.

>That has nothing to do with consciousness. You're not conscious of breathing most of the time, but you don't keep dying of asphyxiation. (I'll bet you are conscious of breathing for a minute or so after reading this, though…)

I'm not talking about that, though. I toss and turn when I sleep, I fling my arms and legs about, but when I sleep next to my partner, she is uninjured the following day. On what level, then, does my unconscious brain register my partner as not just an object, but a person, and specifically, a person to avoid harming? I really fuck up my pillows when I sleep. Why not my partner? If you have kids, they say not to sleep with a baby in the bed when you're drunk - but why would being drunk make a difference if you are incapable of cognitively processing that you are sleeping next to an infant? Why do people respond to embraces in sleep? I'm just saying, I think there's more to it than we simply switch off completely except for 45 minutes of dreaming.

>>80819928
>The guy clearly doesn't go through billions of lifetimes of hell
But he does. That's clearly what Moffat intended, it's the way everyone in-story reacts, and it's the way almost every viewer takes it. The problem here isn't that Moffat isn't willing to explore the philosophical question, it's that you have some kind of hangup that demands a particular answer to it and can't even entertain other possible answers for the sake of fiction. You can't blame Moffat for that.

>if at least Clara was disturbed that there's been umpteen trillion Doctor clones running around
Well, there aren't, because they're all dead. And anyway, what would be disturbing about that?

>I'm pretty sure Clara asks the Doctor if he remembers the four billiion years, and he implies that he does -
"Do you remember X" may sound like a yes or no question, but any real answer is clearly a matter of degree.

Do you remember your first form teacher? Of course you do. So what was her favourite cardigan colour? How well did she handle Mondays? You've forgotten most of everything you knew about her—and even most of the emotions you attached to those memories. And yet, she still has an emotional effect on you, even if only a very small one.

Now multiply that emotional effect by a billion. That's what the Doctor went through.

>>80819126
silurians are lamer

Back on topic -

Has anyone else found that there are very few episodes of Moffat Who that survive a rewatch? I remember loving all his stuff as a teenager, but I've been rewatching NuWho recently and I really can't get on with ninety percent of his episodes. Empty Child and Doctor Dances are still all-time greats, but nothing else seems to survive the test of time.

>>80820442
do you have an example of an episode you consider to be dated now?

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I know this season will have a lot of shit episodes, but i also know that i will not turn them down, this show gets me adicted. been watching it since 2013.
have a blast from /who/'s past

>>80820442
i've seen the eleventh hour like 8 times, but i only saw the name of the doctor once

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>>80820476
>there are people who hadn't watched doctor who before the 50th anniversary

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>>80819909
>have doctor who novels I need to finish reading
>can't stop studying

>>80820358
> if you define life as -consciousness-, the experience of life, and consciousness is terminated when we sleep, then everything we are doesn't last longer than a day, and we die every night to be brought back to life when we wake up. Our personalities are rendered null through sleep - and operating by that metaphor, we are undead - thus, zombies.
But the point of zombies is not that their consciousness is discontinuous, it's that they come back to life without consciousness.

Our consciousness is obviously not perfectly continuous. So if that's any kind of criterion for what you're trying to call "consciousness", then the thing you're trying to define doesn't exist.

But there is, nevertheless, something that does exist, that fits many (but not all) of your intuitions and philosophical beliefs about consciousness. So you haven't shown that consciousness doesn't exist, and you haven't made a reductio ad absurdum that consciousness must be continuous; all you've done is shown that your definitional criteria are wrong. And that's probably because you're clinging to intuitions that don't work.

>>80820562
Me desu. I started with An Unearthly Child either on or a few days after the 50th, I can't remember.

>>80820401
>But he does. That's clearly what Moffat intended, it's the way everyone in-story reacts, and it's the way almost every viewer takes it. The problem here isn't that Moffat isn't willing to explore the philosophical question, it's that you have some kind of hangup that demands a particular answer to it and can't even entertain other possible answers for the sake of fiction. You can't blame Moffat for that.

It doesn't matter what Moffat intended, the story directly refutes his intent. The Doctor didn't go through a billion lifetimes of hell because the Doctor died at the end of each lifetime. It's a new Doctor each time he goes through the cycle. One Doctor didn't go through a billion lifetimes of hell, a billion Doctors went through one lifetime of hell. That fact is immutable. It's inextricable from the DNA of the episode, which relies, in each repetition, of the Doctor being ignorant of the previous cycle. It would be disturbing if he remembered it - it isn't because he doesn't and can't.


>Now multiply that emotional effect by a billion. That's what the Doctor went through.

Again, nope. You can argue that's what he intended, you can't argue that's what happened, because it didn't. He didn't remember it. He physically did not possess those memories. He might be disturbed that a billion versions of him had to punch a wall to get to this point, that's fine, you can say that. But he didn't experience any of it.

>Well, there aren't, because they're all dead. And anyway, what would be disturbing about that?

The fact that the Confession Dial is the mass grave of the Doctors. It's the site of a billion, billion deaths. A billion, billion people suffered and died in the confession Dial.

But the problem is, as you say, Moffat didn't intend that. Which makes you wonder why he wrote the episode to suggest exactly that.

>>80820595
Not all zombies. The Discworld zombies, Bud from Day of the Dead, the iZombie girl, classic Voodoo zombies, etc. Lots of fictional zombies are just non-breathing humans.

>>80820562
oi m8, i started on early 2013, saw s7b while it was on.
the crimson horror was great

>>80820639
He only remembers his past lives when he gets to room 12 and sees the wall. It doesn't make a lot of sense, yeah.

>>80820442
>I remember loving all his stuff as a teenager,
I suspect this has a lot more to do with you growing up than with some episodes holding up better than others.

A lot of the late Tom Baker and early Davison stories that I loved don't hold up. But that's not because those stories are less timeless than the mid-80s or mid-70s ones. It's just because those stories are the ones I saw first, and I was young (and had a lot less other stuff to compare it to).

And I didn't figure this out because I have amazing self-insight or anything, I just learned it from fans a few years older than me, for whom it was Pertwee and early Tom that don't hold up instead of late Tom and Davison…

What the FUCK happened to chakoteya? I need my easily searchable Who transcripts.

>>80820595
>Our consciousness is obviously not perfectly continuous. So if that's any kind of criterion for what you're trying to call "consciousness", then the thing you're trying to define doesn't exist.

Yeah, I know, I wasn't trying to argue that, ahaha. Consciousness just describes...consciousness, whether it's continuous or not.

>So you haven't shown that consciousness doesn't exist, and you haven't made a reductio ad absurdum that consciousness must be continuous; all you've done is shown that your definitional criteria are wrong. And that's probably because you're clinging to intuitions that don't work.

Yeah, but I wasn't really trying to do any of those things mate. The point I was trying to make was that the true nature of consciousness can be quite disturbing and that in the world of sci-fi this can create moral and existential dilemmas, vis a vis, if I clone myself and kill my clone, have I committed a murder, or suicide?

Relevant.
http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1

>>80820639
But the story doesn't refute his intent. If it did, nobody would understand what he was going for, nobody would like it, and it wouldn't be one of the highest-rated stories among critics, fandom, etc.

The only problem here is that you can't accept that there could be any partial continuity of memory and consciousness here, even when the characters directly tell you that there is.

Imagine I were a sincere fundamentalist Christian, and I said, "That story doesn't work, because once he dies, his soul goes to Hell for being a nonbeliever, and therefore there's nothing for a machine to resurrect." You can see what's wrong with that objection, right? Your objection is really just a (much less stupid) version of the same thing.

>you can't argue that's what happened, because it didn't.
Except it did. He recalled things from past attempts. He did tell Clara he remembered it all. Everything in the story tells us that he remembered it. The only thing telling you that he didn't is something in your head that's not from the story.

>A billion, billion people suffered and died in the confession Dial.
A billion people you've never met dying is a tragedy, of course, but it doesn't have the same emotional impact as one person you know going through hell.

>>80820776
Holy shit, you're right, it's dead.

>>80818329
>the Time Lords have become a bunch of doe-eyed fangirls who are now besotted with the Doctor, and look at him with awe and respect and adoration.
isnt he still basicaly the president?

hes been respected by the time lords since the 70's. they just dont fully trust him is all.

>>80820562
2014 here
Watched all 7 series just in time for Capalman
I only had to wait one month for series 8

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>>80820562

>>80820857
>The point I was trying to make was that the true nature of consciousness can be quite disturbing and that in the world of sci-fi this can create moral and existential dilemmas, vis a vis, if I clone myself and kill my clone, have I committed a murder, or suicide?
Sure. And before that, even: http://www.cracked.com/blog/human-clones-do-you-fk-or-fight/

But every SF technology raises dozens of issues, and every SF idea-driven story just addresses one of the issues, not all of them. Nobody says "The Roads Must Roll" is a bad story because, in exploring how you could repair a system of rolling roads that requires 100% uptime and that society is dependent on, it fails to also explore how building that system would impact the economy of the Middle East.

>>80820895
the main difference is that with your original body, even though the cells completely regenerate it's an ongoing process of modifying the one body. That's not the same as terminating the life of the original body and creating a copy of it

>>80820944
>The only problem here is that you can't accept that there could be any partial continuity of memory and consciousness here, even when the characters directly tell you that there is.

The characters can tell me lots of shit, it doesn't mean that it has to make sense.

>But the story doesn't refute his intent. If it did, nobody would understand what he was going for, nobody would like it, and it wouldn't be one of the highest-rated stories among critics, fandom, etc.

You're arguing as though opinions are objective - a consensus doesn't mean something is good or bad, it means lots of people liked it. Lots of people like MacDonalds, I wouldn't use that fact to prove that MacDonalds was -good-.

>Imagine I were a sincere fundamentalist Christian, and I said, "That story doesn't work, because once he dies, his soul goes to Hell for being a nonbeliever, and therefore there's nothing for a machine to resurrect." Your objection is really just a (much less stupid) version of the same thing

No it isn't, because I am relying purely on what the story establishes - this isn't my opinion, this is what happens in the episode. The entire raison d'etre of the story is that the Doctors suffer the same life, a billion times, because he doesn't and can't remember each cyle. We see this happen over and over again. He HAS to solve the same mystery each time, and a loop is created - (never mind the fact that the entire dial is supposed to reset upon death would mean that his wet clothes would be reset with them). The story SHOWS the viewer that the Doctor does not remember his previous lives, he REALISES what happened when he gets to the wall. I am not bringing in an outside opinion on consciousness. We are shown that the Doctor does not remember his previous lives, because the copy that is saved in the teleportation data bank is created from a back-up which existed PRIOR to going into the dial, and each new Doctor is re-created from this version.

>>80821102
Ah, fair - I always got the impression they treated him as a nuisance or pest, like a prodigal son, but I haven't religiously watched classic Who - I'm just going on the fact they're forever slapping his wrist and telling him off and confiscating his TARDIS.

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I wonder if any of the Doctors had allergies. You'd think that'd be something that changes with each regeneration
>pic related, mfw the last few days

>>80821548
They do treat him somewhat like that in The War Games and the Third Doctor episodes.

But after he saves Gallifrey by figuring out ancient wisdom lost for millions of years like it's no big deal, then the Time Lords' gods' god comes down and asks for him by name, and so on… that starts to change.

And the Time War (and/or the events in the novels before that) obviously changes things even farther. But there's not that much farther to go, really.

>>80821548
He's definitely not seen as Space-Jesus in the classic series, like he is now. Most people don't know who he is, Time Lords included.

>>80821688
Yes. Most famously, the Fifth Doctor wears the celery because he's allergic to gases in the praxis spectrum.

But they don't seem to ever have the kind of allergies that just cause mildly elevated histamine levels; their allergies are always either something deadly, or something that prevents them from metabolising some other thing. I'm pretty sure Seven even said his people don't get hay fever.

Maybe Rassilon's genetic (or morphic or whatever) tampering with his people eliminated all the "trivial" allergies (I know, they're only trivial to people who don't suffer them…) but couldn't eliminate the more serious ones?

>>80820736

Well, I mean, surely the definition of an episode holding up is one that you can enjoy at any point in your life? There are lots of episodes from NuWho I enjoy - and in some cases, enjoy more - now that I'm older.

>>80820465
Referring to pecifically Moffat stuff - I can't say I liked any of his stuff as showrunner except the Magician's Apprentice/ Witch's Familiar, which is a controversial opinion I know, but I liked Davros's paternal attitude to the daleks, and there was some stuff there that came close to making the daleks scary again. The sewer dalek stuff I thought wasn't great, because Moffat tends to rely on ridiculous, world-destroying crutches that make fuck-all sense - the fact that any number of species can straight up resurrect the dead, for example (the Tula in Empty Child, the whoever the fuck in the Girl Who Died).

As to his previous stuff, I loved the Girl in the Fireplace and the Library episodes when I was younger (Blink I could take or leave, because it didn't scare me) but a lot of my problems are just about his attitude to the Doctor. I thought that the Library episodes were just one big fuck you to RTD in the name of worshipping/ hyping the "definitive" Moffat doctor - "Not my Doctor/ Have you ever looked at a picture of somebody from when they were younger, and they looked like...they're not quite done yet?" First of all, that's never a feeling any human being has had, but second of all - what the fuck? Why is the entire episode literally "you're gonna be way cooler in a season's time, trust."


Then there's the fact that, after the Doctor shatters the connection between the ship and the past in Fireplace, the Doctor couldn't give less of a shit that Rose and Mickey are stranded, hopelessly, in the future, because he gets to bang history's greatest prostitute. Like...why is the Doctor so sleazy in Moffat Who? Why's he such a creeper?

>>80821476
You're suggesting that all the people who like Heaven Sent failed to understand it, and you don't like it because you do understand it. That seems very implausible.

And add to that the fact that what you understand is that what the characters explicitly say isn't what they're actually saying because what they're saying would be impossible, so the only way to understand it is to assume they mean something else… I'm sorry, I don't even know how to respond to that.

>>80821953

>You're suggesting that all the people who like Heaven Sent failed to understand it, and you don't like it because you do understand it. That seems very implausible.

No, I think they understand that it doesn't make sense, I'm suggesting they don't care. Personally, I can't find anything else in the episode worth getting excited about. There's no character drama I can get my teeth into because it's a concept-driven episode in which the concept itself isn't very good.

>And add to that the fact that what you understand is that what the characters explicitly say isn't what they're actually saying because what they're saying would be impossible, so the only way to understand it is to assume they mean something else… I'm sorry, I don't even know how to respond to that.

It's called a plot hole mate, they're generally understood to be a bad thing. It's ok, though, if you see something in the episode I don't - good for you! You enjoyed a thing I didn't, that means you win. The problem is that the plot still won't make any more sense even if you enjoyed it.

>>80821476
Let me put this a different way:

The episode does have scientific/philosophical flaws, and you have to suspend your disbelief a little to enjoy it. But that's true of all SF—and, really, most fiction. And if you do that, it's a great story.

And what you're arguing is that it's a bad story because you, personally, can't suspend your disbelief on one issue. The fact that most fans, and most critics, can doesn't mean it's automatically a good story, but it does mean that it's obviously not impossible for people to suspend their disbelief on that issue and then judge the story, so if you can't do so, that's something peculiar to you.

And that isn't even necessarily a bad thing. We've all got philosophical hangups that prevent us from enjoying stories that other people do. But that doesn't make those stories objectively bad.

Is the doctor the time lord with the most regenerations in history, due to his lifestyle? Otherwise, why wouldn't any of the other time lords have thought to use a stasis cube during the time war?

>>80822212
The Master has had more bodies. Delgado is the 13th, and since Jacobi regenerated into Simm that at least puts him on equal footing with the Doctor.

>>80822212
>Is the doctor the time lord with the most regenerations in history, due to his lifestyle?
No; the Master used up his original 12, got a new body and a new cycle, and regenerated at least two more times since then (Yana->Simm->Missy), not even counting all of his various pseudo-regenerations; the Doctor has only used up his original 12 and gotten a new life and a new cycle.

But other than them, we don't know of anyone else who ever got another cycle, so he's probably #2.

(Well, unless you count the Other's regenerations as the Doctor, in which case he probably beats the Master…)

>>80822212
>Otherwise, why wouldn't any of the other time lords have thought to use a stasis cube during the time war?
Why would they? As far as they knew, if they did so, the Daleks would just win the War and rule the universe forever. Even if the Daleks couldn't figure out how to defeat a stasis cube, all you'd be doing is postponing your extermination. And, since you're in stasis the whole time, you don't even experience the postponement; you just go from a probably hopeless situation to a definitely hopeless one with no time in between.

Maybe if you were really cowardly but also really crafty and arrogant, you might think you could pull off something better than life during wartime in the post-War future. Which is why the Master did that. (With a chameleon arch, not a stasis cube, which means worst-case he got a few years of life out of it.) But who else would think that way?

>>80822357
Is there any lore about pre-Delgado Masters?

>>80822577
Other than being childhood friends with the Doctor and that flashback from the Tennant era I don't think so.

>>80822577
There's a canon fanfic about the Doctor and the Master murdering their bully or something.

>>80822669
Weird. He must have been doing something to burn through that many lives...

>>80822577
There's quite a bit about his first incarnation. Just on TV, there's the 5-year-old boy in The End of Time, and the various things the Doctor and the Master have said about their childhood and their time at the Academy, and Missy mentioning having a daughter before leaving Gallifrey. In the novels, audios, and comics, we see more of the Master as a child and at the Academy and in his very early years after leaving.

But there's almost nothing for the 11 regenerations between his original one and the Delgado one.

>>80822699
He's a pretty reckless chap. Probably off doing Mastery things.

>>80822692
>canon fanfic
???

Do we actually have confirmation that Delgado is the 13th Master? What if there were others between him and the spooky skellymaster?

>>80822577
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Master summarizes it all reasonably well. Everything from Early Life up to part of Dealings with the Second Doctor is his first incarnation; everything after that is Delgado or later, except possibly the references to the past in Quantum Archangel.

>>80822577
>>80822699
I like to imagine it has something to do with whatever made the doctor flee gallifrey. The master stayed, burnt through all their lives and went mad

>>80822775
>Do we actually have confirmation that Delgado is the 13th Master?
Yes, but then we also have confirmation that he isn't. History can change? Or history is just like that, Amy?

From only TV, it's corpse-face Beevers is definitely #13, and it's implied that it's the same incarnation as Delgado, but never implied all that strongly.

The Virgin novels confirmed that Beevers = Delgado.

Then a BBC novel confirmed that Beevers = Delgado, but in a way that contradicts the Virgin novels.

Then the audios followed the Virgin version—up until The Two Masters, which has a presumably-non-corpse-face Beevers, and pretty strongly implies that Delgado was #12 and regenerated into #13 Beevers shortly before going to Terserus and getting injured and becoming the corpse-face.

>>80822771
Big Finish

>>80822771
Some people use that term for the Virgin novels and/or for Big Finish, because they're licensed, but not made by the BBC.

But really, hasn't it all been canon fanfic at least since JNT took over and filled the show with fans on every level from the Doctor's actor to the production assistants?

>>80823171
in no way does that make them canon

>>80823171
Hartnell's era = Doctor Who
Everything else = Doctor Who homages/fanfics/parodies

>>80823211
This but only halfway ironically.

>>80823211
No, no, it only became fanfic in season 6, when almost all of the stories were directed by David Maloney or Douglas Camfield, both of whom were avowed fans of the show and hadn't been part of season 1.

>>80823275
Plot twist: The Mind Robber the exact story where it becomes fanfic. The Doctor actually did get absorbed into the Land of Fiction and only escapes as a fictional version of his former (already fictional) self.

>>80823208
Obviously, because there is no such thing as a canon rule for anyone who really understands Doctor Who.

But there are people who seriously believe that "licensed=canon". And that includes most people who use terms like "canon fanfic".

(It also includes most of the people at TARDIS Data Core. They like to pretend that it's a silly rule that they don't believe in but you just have to choose some arbitrary silly rule for the purpose of having a wiki. But look at their inclusion debates, and they all clearly think the AVs are not canon and the Reeltime movies are, and there's literally no other reason someone would think that.)

>>80823208
The BBC did declare the VNAs the official continuation of the show IIRC. That's as close to canonicity as it gets in this franchise.

>>80823324
I didn't even realize that was David Maloney's first story. Mind = blown. (Or robbed?)

>>80823324
>only escapes as a fictional version of his former (already fictional) self.
is that what actually happens?

>>80823423
>The BBC did declare the VNAs the official continuation of the show IIRC.
Did they? I remember Cartmel saying something like that, and Segal and Jacobs telling us the movie wouldn't show what happened to Ace because you can read it in the novels, and Lofficier (who would probably be the continuity advisor for the new show if it happened) saying the new 1996 series would treat the novels the same way as the classic TV show, but I don't remember anything official from the BBC.

>>80822172
>The episode does have scientific/philosophical flaws, and you have to suspend your disbelief a little to enjoy it. And if you do that, it's a great story.

So you're stating - categorically - that it's a great story, but you're not saying why. You're saying "if you suspend disbelief, it's a great story." What makes it great, though? Your entire argument seems to be "it's just good though". "It's fundamentally a great episode, you just need to be able to ignore the flaws." Why?

>And what you're arguing is that it's a bad story because you, personally, can't suspend your disbelief on one issue.

What I've argued, actually, is that the story doesn't make sense, and that I don't enjoy it. I have stated, that the story doesn't make sense, not that it's objectively bad.

The thing is, you seem to think I have a problem with you enjoying Heaven Sent. This is not the case. You, or at least some others, have a problem with me NOT enjoying it.

See -

>>80817599

- which is what prompted the discussion.

You can like Heaven Sent for the plot, that's fine by me. The fact I express an opinion to the contrary isn't meant to devalue your experience, I'm just describing my own experience, and if it DOES devalue yours, then maybe the experience itself wasn't as great as you want to believe it was.

The problem I have with Heaven Sent's plotting is that the episode is nothing but plot. You say I can't suspend my belief on one issue.
It's a one-issue fucking plot. For a one-hander entirely about the Doctor, set in something called a Confession Dial, in which his only chance of survival is to confess to a wraith his innermost secrets, how the fuck is it that we learn nothing new or interesting about the Doctor? What, the fact he has a mind palace ripped off from Sherlock? The fact that his greatest fear is a sweaty corpse? Weird how that's never come up before. Weird that it isn't any of the billions of other cosmic horrors he's faced.

>>80820703
There was no copies of 12, it's the same 12 over and over, the device literally resets time as 12 dies again and again, so he dies, then the dial turns back the clock and 12 repeats the process again and again. It's timey wimey shite.

>>80823516
No, but the story is ambiguous and meta enough at some points that you could probably read it that way if you tried to.

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>>80822172
>We've all got philosophical hangups that prevent us from enjoying stories that other people do

For me it's "shrunken" episodes where people are tiny but water physics regarding surface tension and rippling are the same as they would be with a full sized human rather than water being much stronger to penetrate and ripple when you're a much smaller size

>>80823516
The most obvious interpretation is no. The Doctor almost fooled himself into writing himself into the story and being stuck there forever, but he caught himself, and didn't make that mistake again despite becoming increasingly more stressed. And ultimately, Zoe blew up the computer and he unplugged the Master in the nick of time and they all got away without being trapped.

But…he was getting increasingly more stressed. What if he did slip on more time, and didn't catch himself? If he wrote "Zoe blew up the computer with Jamie's help, then the Doctor rushed over and unplugged the Master in the nick of time", would the rest of the episode look any different from what we saw? No, or at least not necessarily.

>>80823771
I remember an Animorphs book doing this concept well. It took into account all the physics stuff like that.

>>80823771
That one, I get a momentary twinge over, but I can get past it. In fact, all the physics stuff (Dalek static electricity…) and computer nonsense I can get past, even though I'm a computer programmer and former physicist.

It's when they do stories that think they're built around evolutionary biology (which is not at all something I'm an expert in) but they clearly don't get evolution, that's when I scream. Like half the stories in the Divergent Arc. Including Scherzo, which is otherwise one of the best early audios, but I can't get past the explanation near the end. Just do your usual Sheldrakian pseudoscience mumbo-jumbo and I can suspend disbelief just fine, but try to do it right and get it wrong, REEEEEEE!

>>80823626

There are things I like about the episode. It's compelling to see the Doctor completely out of his element, which we haven't seen properly since the RTD era. Someone who is helpless, afraid, lonely, desperate, and most poignantly, in denial. For once, too, he's someone whose compulsive tendency to make grandiose threats is undermined by the fact that he's no idea what he's dealing with. This is all good stuff. The idea of him spending a billion years punching through adiamond wall just to save Clara is a really powerful one. The episode has an atmosphere I can't even describe - bleak and depressing come close - and I applaud Moffat's attempts to try something so experimental and risky. But, to me, it's much less than the sum of its parts.

The entire episode exists to set up the revelation, and the journey to that revelation is slow and draggy. The central concept is stretched thin. The confessions themselves aren't revelations, since they've been covered before in a bunch of other episodes, and ultimately, Clara's character was so weak that I found it impossible to mourn for her. I mourned for the Doctor's grief - which, again, was done very well, especially the fact that Clara becomes the Doctor's journalling device - than for grief at Clara's death itself.

I don't hate the episode. I just don't love it.

>>80823771
Actually, if that's your pet peeve, you might know the answer to this completely unrelated question:

In Ant-Man, did they have a scene that goes out of its way to show surface tension working realistically (in slo-mo to show off their CGI, of course), and then another scene later in the movie where they completely forgot that?

>>80823761
If it reset time, there wouldn't be a moat of the Doctor's skulls outside. The moat is a mass grave for all the copies of the Doctor. Watch the episode again.

>>80823957
>but try to do it right and get it wrong, REEEEEEE!

This desu.

>>80824039
can't remember desu, I was dual-screening while watching it
I'm pretty sure there's a scene where he's in a bath that is getting filled up and/or getting sucked through a water pipe, but in those he's just getting carried by the water rather than impacting it at all. I don't think there's any scene where they make a point of showing water surface tension working realistically but there also aren't any scenes that blatantly contradict it either

>>80823957
Biological evolution is something Doctor Who seems to have a recurring problem with. Any time it gets brought up is usually cringeworthy. Which is a shame since evolution in a broader sense is one of the main themes of the show.

>>80824267
Well, the really big thing it has a recurring problem with is time travel.

The novels actually do work, because there's an Eternal who's the literal anthropomorphic personification of time, and because CRaP and the EDAs were telling us that it only works at all because of the Time Lords maintaining the Web of Time and everything would go crazy otherwise, so the weirdly animistic way time travel works is about what you'd expect.

But in NuWho, the Eternals fled the universe during the LGTW, and the destruction of Gallifrey means all the rules are changed, and yet there's still clearly some intelligent but imperfect agency doing the best it can to keep history working as well as possible.

That's an insane notion of the universe, and yet I can deal with it as fantasy as long as they're reasonably consistent with the implications.

So why does it bug me so much more when the Doctor talks about a "more evolved form"?

>>80824734
>So why does it bug me so much more when the Doctor talks about a "more evolved form"?
I don't know, probably because evolution is a real science and time travel isn't.

>yfw you realize there are Who fans who will die on April 14th, and never see Series 10
>>80825545
>time travel isn't real

You don't know the future!

>>80826649
>yfw you realize there are Who fans who held onto dear life for months to see Capaldi's last season and then learned S10 was postponed all the way to 2017

>>80826765
Perhaps like the girl with CF that GL shook down for info?

>>80825545
Well, there is actual real science about time travel. Some of it even goes back about 80 years (I can't remember who did the first paper on closed timelike curves in general relativity or when, but I do remember that it was well before Gödel's proof in the late 40s.)

But that's not even the point. It's not about the specific physics (which the show obviously never gets into), it's about the general notion that the universe is physical in the first place. There's no physical force that could account for something being erased from history but only if someone gets distracted and doesn't remember it. That's not how physics works, that's how magic works.

(And yes, sufficiently advanced science looks like
magic—but whose science? If it's not Time the Eternal, or the Time Lords maintaining Rassilon's Web of Time, then it's not sufficiently advanced science, it's magic.)

Anne Travers in The Web of Fear is some weird casting. She looks nothing like Professor Travers (especially noticeable with Jack Watling's real daughter in most of their scenes together). And the only female guest star in that era who towers over the Doctor and Jamie is the one playing a quasi-love-interest for the Doctor.

ABC creates a half hour panel show.
doctorwhonews net/2017/03/abc-whovians-240317070008.htm
Hope there will be torrents

The latest CIA hack is called the Sonic Screwdriver https://wikileaks.org/vault7/darkmatter/?cia

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>>80827851
Getting real sick of the CIA. They are the ones who really assassinated Kennedy.

>>80827851
>CIA is full of literal brony whovians

>>80827504
try a link that doesn't require an account
is that the australian or american ABC?

>>80827851
I might actually know the guy who named all these projects Weeping Angel, Sontaran, Sonic Screwdriver, etc. And, if so, I'm the one who converted him to Doctor Who back in the late 90s. I should track him down and find out if it's him. I mean, I can forgive going to work for the CIA, but seriously, "Pterodactyl"? He became a Torchwood fan?

>>80828119
Australian.

(But, just to make it more confusing, it's hosted by Rove McManus, who moved from Sydney to Hollywood a few years ago to work for the other ABC.)

>>80828335
I'm an ausfag, can you screencap the article or something so I can read it?
is it a panel show with doctor who actors? Who's on it? Is it a one time special or are they making a series somehow?

>>80828119
>try a link that doesn't require an account
?? I don't have an account and it works for me?
Australian.

>>80828363
Australian broadcaster ABC have announced a new half-hour panel show to tie in with the forthcoming tenth series of Doctor Who. Based around fans of the show, Whovians will be shown on Sunday evenings from 16th April at around 8:30pm on ABC2/iview, straight after the latest episode has been broadcast on ABC.

Whovians, with Rove McManus (Credit: ABC)
Sunday nights are about to get a whole lot more galactic as Rove McManus and his team of superfans present a brand new half hour panel show to dissect, delve into and delight in the world of Doctor Who. Airing straight after the weekly premiere of the much anticipated Doctor Who series 10 on ABC, Whovians will be filmed in front of a live studio audience, and air on Sundays at 8.30pm on ABC2 and iview.

As well as unpacking the most recent episode, Rove and the team will open the doors of the TARDIS and go back through the annals of time to lovingly analyze, critique, and unravel the mysteries of this much loved globally renowned series.

Rove is a long time Doctor Who enthusiast and will be joined by other self-confessed Doctor Who superfans, Tegan Higginbotham, Adam Richard and Steven ‘Bajo’ O’Donnell, as well as a roster of celebrity guests.

This is a show by Whovians but one that won’t exclude the rest of humanity.

Rove McManus said:
I’ve been a fan of Doctor Who for as long as I can remember so you can imagine how pleased I am to be hosting a show about it.
1/2

>>80828451
2/2
Whether it be the classic era that dates back over fifty years or the modern series that has created its own decade-long legacy, it’ll be nice to have the opportunity to talk about my favourite TV show with like-minded individuals and be paid to completely geek out. You might say I’m so excited that I too feel like I have two hearts beating in my chest - and yes, it’s references like that which prove I’m the right guy for the job.
Brian Minchin, Executive Producer of Doctor Who added:
Whovians will be the perfect companion piece for the thrilling new series of Doctor Who on ABC. It’s fantastic to have this exciting new program to delight Australian fans.
Rebecca Heap, ABC Head of Programming and Digital, said:
As the home of Doctor Who in Australia we are thrilled to offer our audiences another way to engage with the popular program, as well as welcoming Rove back to our screens.

So get ready to get on board. #WhoviansAU

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>>80828418
>doctorwhonews.net/2017/03/abc-whovians-240317070008.htm
this is what I get when I copy that link

>>80828464
oh but if I go to the homepage and click on the link there it works even though it's the same URL? that's fucking weird

The show might be cringe as fuck, don't hold your breath
Especially if the celebrity guests include people who don't care about the show and spend the whole time joking about how words sound funny and nothing makes sense

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>>80828524
It's going to be called "Whovians" it can't not be cringe as fuck. I've said before I wish BBCAmerica would do something similar, but Chris Fucking Hardwick would end up hosting. Their first guests could be the new MST3K crew, Felicia Day, Patton Oswalt and the kid from the kitchy travel channel show.
Every other networks flagship show nowadays has a "talk-back" companion show. They can't be too costly to produce.

http://tvtonight.com.au/2017/03/rove-to-host-doctor-who-panel-on-abc2.html
Quick rundown on the hosts

>Rove McManus
used to be big here 10 years ago, went off the radar after he tried to make it big in the US and didn't really

>Tegan Higginbotham
Never heard of her. Has been in a comedy or two and does random indie films it looks like

>Adam Richard
Probably close to the AU equivalent of your regular british panel show guest, except we have next to no panel shows and he's not well known

> Steven ‘Bajo’ O’Donnell
A host of "Good Game", the ABC's gamer culture show. There's a webm floating around of him and the female host doing some love calculator test at a con, it said that he thought of her romantically but she didn't.

Don't expect anything much. It'll probably just be boring, not horrible enough to meme but also not entertaining enough to justify watching, especially if they end up having pleb opinions

remember the 50th anniversary after party

>>80829262
why

>>80829262
I try not to

>>80829279
>tons of classic companions in the background as set extra not doing anything
>one direction tries to ask a question but a huge delay
>john hurt has no idea whats going on
>everyone bored
>they finally try to use the actors in the back to play a game and its such a disaster Gatiss has to step in and stop it

>>80829406
hol up
was this a TV special or something? I haven't heard of it before

>>80829478
>I haven't heard of it before
and with good reason.

>>80829478
it came on after the 50th or later that iirc

the best part was when moffat started face palming during the interview

What's the name of the afterparty show? Is it online anywhere?

>>80829617
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjCugpWTkx8
Enjoy

>>80830118
My life goal is to never watch that. So far I'm doing pretty good.

>>80829115
>Rove and Bajo
Might be a fun watch

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what did he mean by this

>>80830118
why are there so many audience shots where they are completely emotionless and not reacting to what's being said at all?

>3:50
>give a round of applause for matt smith please everybody
>matt applauds himself
wew

>the couch isn't big enough to fit all of them
wew

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isn't the backwards two fingers a rude gesture in the UK? Why did he do it when one direction showed up?

wew they hadn't even seen the episode yet
how embarrassing

It was a pretty standard superficial interview until that live linkup

>>80830118
this is only the first 15 minutes
is the rest anywhere?

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>tfw they are going to sell 2 blu ray dvds, splitting the season in 2 parts
>part 1 blu-ray gets released
>part 2 blu-ray gets released
>"Buy now the special edition of both parts together in ONE disk and in a STEEL CASE!"


Somehow they have to pay for CLASS incident

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Doctor-Series-10/23050

>>80830756
Was it rape?!

>>80831097
Look closer anon
>2 discs
Each disc has 3 episodes each that would mean
the "special edition" would just be a regular box set that contains 4 discs
you're acting like that isn't what they've done for literally every single other nuwho series

>>80831097
They did for series 9 too. Hardly unprecedented.
Remember the 4 or 5 volumes of the RTD era?

>>80831203
>>80831361
I... didn't bought any DVD, I used torrent. The steel case of season 1 looks pretty goat, I'm planning in buy it

Gatiss' episode got confirmed as 'Ice Warriors on Mars' yesterday, but I can't find the article. It was posted in a /who/ thread.

What a shit title

>>80820562
I actually started on Asylum of The Daleks

>>80831594
but ice warriors are FROM mars
that's a fucking horrible title

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"Film somewhere I can stalk. I mean set report you insignificant specimans. REEEEEEEEEEEE"

>>80831594
He apparently just described it as that. GL was the one who said that was the title. And obviously she's the end all authority on Who so some lazy website must have seen her tweet and decided to shit out something

>>80830782
And after that they probably never did.

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Caption this pic.

>>80830118
I watched this live and I'll never watch it again.

Series 1 rankings

Rose - intentionally cheesy, but great
Both Billie and Chris are magnificent, music, writing are marvelous
8.5/10 and not 10 just because of terrible plastic Mickey and cheese overload

The End of the World
Chris is fucking perfect in this, story is well written, overall pretty good
7.5/10

The Unquiet Read
Probably still best gatiss story for me. Fun enough, great introduction to the past
Honestly its just quite nice
7/10

Aliens of London / WW3
This one gets a lot of hate, but I think people ignore how much developement Rose, Mickey and Jackie get in this episode. Slitheen are a production error,
I'm pretty sure its directors fault, in RTD's script it was handled in a smoother way. Resolution is crap though. Chris is fantastic
7/10

Dalek
Its fucking great
9.5/10

The Long Game
Forgettable, but pretty good anyway
7/10, I see no reasons to hate this one

Father's days
Chris is fantastic in this. Solid story, great drama. I dont like directing though, there's something fucked up with this one for sure.
8/10

Empty Child / The Doctor Dances
We all know why this one is great
10/10

Boom Town
Fun! Comfy! Chris nd slitheen actress are insanely good, the only think I dislike is Mickey being cucked this much
8/10

Big Wolf / Parting of the Ways
It works fantastic to me. I think its one of the best RTD's works ever. I like every scene, every decision, every line.
10/10

R8 my taste

>>80833509
Series 1 is 13 episodes of pure unadulterated kino

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>>80830118

>how petit Jenna is

I cant keep watching this I'm going to bite my lower lip off.

>>80833611
I saw her at a con once and she is literally TINY

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>ywn marry jenna and give her your seed

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Hear me out guys.

You may have heard rumours that the announcement of the next Doctor will be on either the first or second of April. It will be on the 2nd and will replace Countryfile.

Unlike the show which announced Capaldi, the programme will last for roughly an hour and will be presented in more of a documentary format like when Matt Smith was announced.

It will feature all of the former living Doctors, some companions and other key figures from the show's history as well as some celebrity fans (including people like Armando Iannucci, Jon Culshaw, Joanna Lumley and a few more) as well as Peter Capaldi, Pearl Mackie, Matt Lucas, Michelle Gomez, Steven Moffat and Chris Chibnall.

It will basically be a regeneration history lesson and will focus on each Doctor and their respective regeneration in order. There will also be a small section on The Curse of Fatal Death and in particular the first regeneration into a female - Joanna Lumley. There will be lots of mentions about a possible female Doctor throughout as about 15 minutes before the end they will unveil the next Doctor, who is Hayley Atwell.

She will talk briefly about the show, how much she enjoys it, what she's looking forward to bringing to the role etc. Capaldi, Moffat and Chibnall will then talk about why its the right time for a female Doctor. The show will end with a short montage and pictures of the Doctor's faces appearing on the screen (like the eleventh hour) with Hayley's being there too albeit as newly shot video - she gives a smile.

Then the Series 10 trailer will air after.

>>80834043
source?

>>80834043
That's fun to you? Sitting and making something that consumes, what, fifteen to thirty minutes of your already-shortened lifespan — a standing result of the obesity and sedentary wonts that plague you as it is — just to make two or three people look up Big Finish news to see if your handiwork is real or not?

You get off on so little?

>>80834079
Nice fan-fic

>>80834079
Hi Matt

>>80834186
I mean it's pretty good outside of the doctor, rose and dalek looking pixelated as fuck

>>80834079
There's no way this is real.

>>80834186
Its real though. Check facebook.

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>>80834043
>that horrible zygon photoshop

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rebranding

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You are almost falling asleep at night and this woman opens the door of your bedroom, gives a little smirk and says; "Drop your pants, little boy."

What do you do?

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>>80834186
what's wrong with a bit of shitty fan cover?
i do it too while i listen briggs finish
other time i do knitting and housework

>>80834663
"Fuck off, I'm trying to sleep."

>>80834043
Not sure why people are so harsh on this. If it's a fake, it's really good and look exactly like something BF would release.

>>80834650
Red Nose Day skit confirmed?

>>80834784
yep

>>80834784
GET HYPE

>>80833294
Friendly puss (and a cat)

>>80834784
It's just a photoshopped image from behind the scenes of The Magician's Apprentice

I think Pearl is more attractive than Jenna. You can't prove me wrong.

>>80834916
This. Comic relief tonight is the PERFECT time to promote Doctor's Who's return in just three weeks yet they're not doing anything. Looks like the BBC have learned nothing from Class.

>>80835473
Do we know for a fact they're not? I thought they generally keep it under wraps beforehand, like the "Newt Scamander phoning the Doctor" sketch

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David Harewood going up, now in 3rd place on Oddschecker. Average odds about 6/1 now.

Behind Kris Marshall (about evens) and Tilda Swinton (about 9/2)

Tilda Swinton is a wasted bet. She can get as many film roles as she likes.

>>80835473
The Beeb probably don't think they need to promote Doctor Who. Yeah, viewing figures fell a bit at the start of series 9, but the show remains one of their top viewed dramas, and is always in the Xmas top 10.

But hell....I wish they would promote it more.

>>80835606
It's not Tilda Swinton, because she appears every time, and they won't cast a female because it's too big a risk presently.

I think that Mirror article from the other month is probably spot on - as they usually are - and they're going to have a Tennant style Doctor with a young female companion. Pearl Mackie probably won't stay on because its going to be a soft reboot, like Eleventh Hour.

It also won't be an unknown like Smith. I'm 90% certain the 13th Doctor will have the following characteristics:

>age 30-40
>handsome, quirky
>funny/comedy actor for kid appeal
>well known, or at least recognisable, to the public

If i was to put a bet on anyone, which i won't, but if i was going to, i'd say Kris Marshall. In fact i'm pretty sure it's going to be him. But I can guarantee it won't be a woman or someone as young as Smith.

>>80835606
This. Just can't see an A-lister wanting to spend 10 months a year filming in cold, wet and windy Cardiff.

>>80835558
>I thought they generally keep it under wraps
I thought the opposite. Yesterday I heard a radio trailer for all the shows and celebrities they had lined up for tonight and Doctor Who wasn't mentioned. And the Doctor only cameoed in the Newt Scamander sketch, it wasn't a dedicated Doctor Who thing.

>>80835768
If they moved Doctor Who back to London they'd get better actors, wouldn't they?

>>80835852
The Doctor Who cast and crew are all busy making the s10 finale. Doubt they'd have time to appear for Red Nose Day anyway: the most we'll get is a Doctor cameo in a sketch.

>>80835969
Why not an exclusive clip from episode 1 then?

>>80835896
Sometimes is filmed in London. Maybe I should've said "cold, wet and windy England but mostly Cardiff in Wales"

>>80836028
Some people would no doubt complain about *spoilers*.

>>80835743
I think Kris Marshall would be a good choice.

But he has young children, and one of the reasons he gave for leaving DiP was the long weeks away on location. DW filming days are long, and often away on location. Also, the lead actor has to do lots of other 'promotional' stuff abroad. It's literally a 24/7 job.

>>80836405
Who knows, he may leave his family for 8 months a year on 200k+. Depends how much he was getting paid for DiP.

Could also be that Andrew guy from Broadchurch

"...another was called 'Sonic Screwdriver', after Doctor Who’s famously versatile tool. A previous release showed the program that could turn smart TVs into surveillance tools was called 'weeping angel', another Doctor Who reference. According to the documents, the Screwdriver is a way to implant code on a Mac while it boots up."

www.crikey.com.au/2017/03/24/cia-nerds-love-doctor-who/

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/rove-mcmanus-geeks-out-on-new-abc-series-whovians-nerd-central-for-dr-who-fans/news-story/d7b8e0794aadaf7d0f834c162d261447

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Hahahaha based Hurt not giving a fuck.

>>80836785
>there's actually a site called crikey.com

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>>80837259
Just....

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>>80835417
I literally can.

Be honest, are you disappointed with 12 as a Doctor? Did he live up to your hype when Capaldi was announced?

>>80837553
I preferred him as Malcolm Tucker. I feel they've given him too much freedom.

>>80837553
As an RTD Chad I finally thought this would be the turning point for Moff. That he'd start writing better stuff. And in some ways he has. It's mostly the other writer's episodes that are weak.

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>>80835417
>>80837441

>>80837553
>Be honest, are you disappointed with 12 as a Doctor?
Yes
>Did he live up to your hype when Capaldi was announced?
Yes, but then series 9 happened.

>>80837553
I am disappointed with his stories.

I barely had any fun with him until the end of Series 9 and Husbands of River Song. I can't explain it, but I think Clara ruined it for me. I just don't know why. Someone else suggested that all of the focus on Clara ruined Capaldi's run and it just made sense to me seeing as how I enjoyed his stories when she wasn't around.

>>80837672
How do you from Jenna Coleman to that...thing?

Her acting seems pretty shit from the trailer and the friend from the future thing as well.

>>80837692
>>80837616
>>80837615
>>80837692
wtf I love /who/ now

>>80837722
I thought she had too much focus in Series 8 but in 9 he was front in center imo.

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>>80837615

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>>80837672
grrr just let me at her

>>80837880
Reminder that
- Face the Raven is Clara: the episode
- Everything he did in Heaven Sent was to save Clara
- Hell Bent is literally Clara Who

>>80837937
Yeah And doesn't that scare you.

>>80837937
Deep Breath is also Clara the fucking episode.
So's Listen.
Parts of The Caretaker.
And Kill the Moon.
Mummy on the Orient Express too.
Let's not forget Flatline.
And Dark Water.
Oh, also Death in Heaven.
As well as Last Christmas.

Capaldi was robbed.

I hope Series 10 actually focuses on the Doctor, and doesn't depict him as some sort of Clara cuckold.

>>80837992
Dont get me wrong
I love companion developement
however 1x1 was literally called Rose and it was mostly about Rose, Eccleston was the star anyway
How did RTD do it? Is he really a better writer?

>>80837937
It was still about 12 though. I guess if you hate Clara though you wouldn't care how 12 felt about her though. I feel the same with 10 and Rose so fair enough.

>>80837692
>but then series 9 happened.
What happened to change your opinion?

>>80837553
No, he quickly became my favourite Doctor. He was literally the first complex Doctor, his insecurity with himself in series 8 felt real, and felt like a real persons issues. Then his character progressed in series 9 and he became friendlier and a thrill seeker and then Clara's death happened and he has finally merged into a stable personality half cynical bastard half friendly eccentric thrill seeker. His character development has been some of the best, and it's sad people cannot see that, maybe in a few years they will. Also he didn't have any number of worse stories than any other Doctor in New Who has had.. He's had a good number of great moments and episodes. Just like Smith and Tennant.

>>80838114
Too much goofy comical doctor, instead of serious sincere doctor.

https://twitter.com/lukespillane/status/845216205887737856

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp_Fw5oDMao&feature=youtu.be

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NEW GENERAL:

>>80838312


>>80838312


>>80838312

>>80835969
If they can't even send Matt Lucas to appear briefly on stage as Nardole, or something then it's a poor do.

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>>80837259
>>80837309
>"Why am I here again? Oh yeah the war, I fought in a war?"
>"Which war I fought again?"
>"My feet hurt."
>"I want to sleep, I need my pills for Alzheimer."
>"I like that purse."

>>80821476
>the entire raison d'etre of the story is that the Doctors suffer the same life, a billion times, because he doesn't and can't remember each cycle.

"But you don't understand, Clara. I can remember it all, every time. And every time you still won't be there".

His memories of every previous attempt return when he reaches room 12. Presumably, when he fries his brain to power up the teleporter, his consciousness is transferred to the next duplicated Doctor. But with initial amnesia until the memories flood back. Billions of years spent suffering a fresh grief, and gazillions of slow and agonizing deaths.

Can't think of a worse 'hell'.

>>80837553
Being honest, I wasn't particularly hyped when he was announced (had only seen very little of his previous work).

And didn't warm to him in the role until 'Listen', which was the point I felt confident that he'd be good in the role.

Overall, I've enjoyed his run so far. Yeah, there's been a few weaker episodes, but every season of Who has had these. So no, not disappointed.

File: ZALTYS.jpg (166KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

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>>80834584
itd still pass as a big finish cover
(pic related)

chronological anon here, just started doom coalition 4, haven't listened to it yet.

will probably finish 8 today desu.