Animal Farm

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>renting movies from a store
>2017

Where you from homie?

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>it's a look on and reflection of Communism
errytime

some animals are more equal than others tho

>>80624219

HEY YOU WHITEHOUSE

HA HA CHARADE YOU ARE

>>80624280
But it is.

>>80624384
their laziest album desu

>>80624623

*best

fuck off pol

>>80624695
>write 3 riffs
>stretch them out to 10 minutes each
>flee to france to avoid taxes

It was the beginning of the end, best album artwork though

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>>80624695
I'd say close second, it they are both great albums. At least we can all agree the wall wasn't their best.

>>80624453
>American education

>>80624280
It's basically a retelling of the russian revolution

>>80624882
I have a soft spot for The Wall but it's a Roger solo album

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>inb4 it was not communism but about totalitarianism ( not communism, guys) and owell was a socialist himself meme

>>80624988
Чo?

>>80625093

The Wall still has more of a Pink Floyd feel at least.

The Final Cut is a Waters solo album. Should've been Roger Waters and his backing band Pink Floyd

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>>80625096
Really makes /pol/ think

>>80624274
Not OP, but I work at a video rental store in my hometown when I'm back for breaks from college. It's surprisingly busy on nights/weekends.

>>80624274
could be a library dingus
>>80624280
literally USSR: the allegory
>>80625468
democratic socialism, Orwell was against the authoritarian socialism

Not real Communism.

>>80625594
It never is apparently

>>80625594
What is real communism?

>>80624219
>>Thinks it's a kids film

You simply cannot be that stupid.

>>80625570
>socialism
>democratic

>>80625610
Only because like animal farm basically paint for the viewer or reader, even those with the best intentions fall to the corruption of power. Humans are not yet capable of communism in its purest form. That is why socialism is seen by many as the next step forward to attain that capability at some point.

>>80625655
Whatever you think Communism is isn't real Communism.

>>80625739
>Humans are not yet capable of communism in its purest form
they never will be apparently

Read the book, its like 50 pages.

>>80625785
I'm sure the men who slept in caves thought the same of wireless technology and democracy. 10000 years or more is a long time, and none of us have a crystal ball.

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>not watching the bullshit free version

>>80625908
>I'm sure the men who slept in caves thought the same of wireless technology and democracy.
what are you basing this on pal

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>>80624219
>symbolism

>>80625468
Nice source

>>80625959
I base it mostly on how long it took the west to move away from a slave like structure in serfdom to capitalism.

Also my beliefs are rooted on the fact that economic theory and structure is evolutionary, not this right or wrong. Capitalism is great for building a society but lacks strong theories on how to maintain a strong society without creating a system where the few control the many.

>>80625756
>>80625655
>>80625610
>>80625594
Real answer is that real communism is an utopia in which everyone is working along each other and not topping each other off in illusory hierarchies. To be an utopia means that it's always on the horizon, you never actually get there, but it compels you to move towards it.

That's why when people complain about something in socialist countries, some leftists will say it's not real communism. Because your criticism, to them, is not about communism itself ("see, if everyone is getting along working together, that's the issues that will appear), it's about something in the way of it (authority, money, external pressure, etc that stops communism from actually happening).

That's it, it's not hard to understand. Communism is "perfect", but not in a presumptuos way, only in the sense that people are discussing how to get to it. The problem they face is how to topple the capitalist authorities from using people and things for their own profit. So they need military force and a united strong government to regulate things, but still, that authority gets in the way and becomes a problematic thing on its own. But that's totally not the end goal of communism, which would be to organize society in such a way that makes impossible for a person to explore the other in the way.

>>80626190
>without creating a system where the few control the many.
This will always happen

>>80625716
>>80625610
>>80626202
t. nerds

>>80626319
you're the nerd

>>80626134
Can I have a brief synopsis on these guys? I keep seeing them everywhere and it's driving me crazy.

>>80626234
Yes, when you base your beliefs on what exists now. If you assume humans will maintain their same state forever, that is a possibility, yet we have the unique ability to shape how we evolve. So, in the end, it is only up to us and how we choose to move forward. Do we progress or fear the progression to the point that we destroy ourselves?

>>80626366
No, we fear those advocating this "progress"

>>80626202
That's not real Communism, either.

>>80626332
t. nerd

>>80626467
What you are referring to is progressives, which is not the same as talking about the progression of humanity. They are referring to the progression, or breaking from, constructs and beliefs laid down in society on rights basis. Although noble, it tends to be misguided and shrouded in deep lust for rebelling against the norm. That is not the progression I speak of.

>>80626593
>What you are referring to is progressives
No, I mean the people who advocate communism and the people who would actually have the power to shape it.

>>80625924
underrated

>>80626202
This.
Americans always see communism as a boogeyman, that's just their culture, and is fucking funny for the rest of the world that most americans are that retarded.

My mum decided to let me watch this when I was 6/7 because it had cartoon animals in it. When the horse got sent to the glue factory and the donkeys heart broke it destroyed my soul. Thanks mum.

>>80626202
So communism is a pipe dream that human nature will always prevent from becoming achievable.

>>80624623
Kind of have to agree, I mean two -of the three- songs on the album were originally written for WYWH.
that said I still love the album

>>80627081
no we haven't tried it yet

>>80627050
Yeah, I've seen it in a tender age too. Shit's harsh, yo.

>>80627081
Some think that, sure. Then some think while human nature gets in the way, you can set arrangements so to diminish or end its effects. But a lot of people think that "human nature" is not something that exist or is set in stone like that.

The idea of communism did not came before a reading of capitalism. What Marx did was essentially take a good look through society and how was the flow of materials, work and profit organized. He noticed a lot of problems with it and made them evident. Communism starts when we try to fix these problems in search of it. Marx noticed that a lot of things that we take for being natural stuff was actually only the nature of our position in a giving arrangement. In other words, what comes first, the desire to top the other or fear of being topped over? To a lot of leftists, the capitalist system itself feeds this idea that it is absolutely natural, necessary, indispensable and prevents people from thinking we can relate to each other in a different way.

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>>80627081
>human nature
OH MY DAYZ

>>80627532
Wait, so the goal of communism (or one of its core tenants) is to combat the human spirit? That doesn't sound sustainable or even mentally healthy for the individual.

>>80628349
No. On the contrary, anon. It means to free the human spirit from thinking it can only exist in the way things are arranged to day and to allow itself to make a better world for this spirit to live.

>>80626190
>Capitalism is great for building a society but lacks strong theories on how to maintain a strong society without creating a system where the few control the many.
So, to combat a system where the few control the many in a de facto manner, you propose to create a system where the few control the many in a de jure manner? That does not sound like progress at all.

>>80624280
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_Q4019fEjo

>>80624623
kys smallbrain

btw their best album was Meddle and it's not close

>>80624219
I remember watching this at my grandparents flat in early 90's, they had some movies on vhs and this one so it was the only movie that was kind of suiting my childish mind.
I shit you not, I must have watched it a few dozen times because many many years later it was aired on some cable channel and I remembered every single scene.
I was red-pilled in the age of 4.
Praise kek.

>>80625756
Not an argument.

>>80628491
Thats a nice thought, and obviously I agree that the human experience should move forward instead of backwards. But how does creating a totalitarian, single party governemnt that forcefully redistributes wealth and goods work to achieve that goal?

>>80628980
You are confusing politics with economics. How you choose to mandate an economic system within your society is up to you. There are totalitarian capitalist societies, but they tend to be called oligarchies. No one in America or even Europe is a part of the capitalist party. There are communist parties as they have to push for influence on how the economy is run in a capitalist dominated society.

>>80628491
>freedom is only what i determine it is

>>80628866
Not real argument.

>ITT deluded eurofags think communism works because of fairy tales they heard when they were young

>>80628980
As I said before, the problem is how to topple over the already existing powers. What stops the richest man on earth from becoming richer? What could the poorest man on earth do if he didn't even lunch?

There are a myriad of possible ways to tackle this, opinions diverge immensively. Even today, what some people call left (for example, what the left is in the US) attempts to bring some improvement on the system that we have, without revolutions or things like that. Some say that only mascarades the problem and will eventually serve those who are already in power. The ones who are not trying to reform, but to make a revolution, need to do so by force, it is a violent act, no doubt. That is, the workers to turn against those who oppress them. But the real problem is: what to do in the next morning? How can we organize ourselves? How can a revolution stand against foreign powers trying to exploit the fragile situation of a country right after such a transformation? This is a genuine and important question to which what we have as of yet were mere attempts to answer it and the degree of success to these attempts is complex and debatable.

The single party that emerged in this place is a step towards the goal of having no party at all. That is, from that moment on, they would be all together, if a problem exists in a country or within the party, then everyone in the country and the party must work to fix it. Instead of having two or more parties battling each other and stomping on the people as they do so. Of course, both scenarios (single party and multiple) have problems, both stomp on people, both degenerate into something else other than what's good for most, both have unpredictable people running things.

So basically: if people compete, they fight each other and don't cooperate. If there is one only in power, that one power will corrupt itself. And if there is no one in power, it cannot resist external powers. What to do? They also ask themselves that.

>>80629554
>ITT deluded Amerifags think capitalism works because of fairy tales they heard when they were young

>>80629259
How in the hell do you read that into what I said?

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>>80625594
I hate when people do this, because it implies that it should be attempted again.

>>80626979
>Americans
Kill yourself right fucking now.

My country still hasn't recovered from the damage the nazis and the commies caused.

>>80629597

Capatalism works because it has provably been working for America and the EU. Only now are socialist values destroying the work that previous generationslaid out for us. Gen Z is our only hope once they realize how fucking useless our generation is at maintaining these imperfect but working systems.

>>80627532
>But a lot of people think that "human nature" is not something that exist or is set in stone like that.
Yes, those people are called retards.

>>80629597
Amerifag here. I'm okay with capitalism or whatever form it has taken on here in America. I've worked with some people from South America and Russia and it seems pretty shitty compared to America. Especially the former seems really bad. They always love it here. When they come to the office they drool over my sports car because they could never have something like that in their country. I don't even make that much but I can afford it still because this country isn't an economic shithole, for the most part. Now I know those aren't European countries but the point is whatever we have going on here in America is pretty good.

>>80629554
>>80629597
Eurofag here.
I'd rather live in a shitty capitalistic world than in a shitty communistic world.
I actually value my freedom.

>>80626202
You got it wrong, Humans are incapable of living like that source = Every communist country ever

>>80630102
>>Capatalism works because it has provably been working for America and the EU.
What does "working" mean to you exactly? Statistically, more people starve to death every few years in capitalist countries, than died from any unnatural causes including starvation, mass killings, etc. under the entire worldwide historical reign of communism.

>>80630285
How do you have any freedom under capitalism, where everything is owned by someone else, who enforces the rules on you, and there is no public space, no commons, no national property to seek refuge in from that?

>>80630558
Need some sources on that Ivan the red, sounds incredibly speculative, Communism can never be achieved because you cannot change the nature of Humans, Capitalism while it isnt perfect, works for the West, Communism has never been successful see= Cold War.

>>80624219
BAHH BAHH BAHHH BAHHH BAH BAH BAH BAHH BAHH BAHHH BAHH BAHH BAHHHHHHHH

>>80630650
>where everything is owned by someone else
I own my house and the only person that could take it from me is the state.
The only one that enforces rules on me is the state.
And there is no property to take refuge from the state other than the church.
Under communism i wouldnt own anything and i'd be ruled just the same, only this time it would be by my peers.

>>80625096
But it is. They actually changed the ending in th 50's version because it was too pro socialism (The pigs turn into Humans/capitalist oppressors).

>>80630711
>>Need some sources on that Ivan the red, sounds incredibly speculative

Sure. Approximately every 5-6 years, capitalism kills 100 million people, which is the entire death toll of communism by the most generous estimates.

https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/which-starves-more-people-capitalism-or-communism/

Here is a calculation including other sources with a LOT of references:

http://www.petersaysstuff.com/2014/05/attempting-the-impossible-calculating-capitalisms-death-toll/

>>80625096
Orwell literally fought for a communist militia, he only gave up on it after that and was always a libertarian socialist

>>80630803
>what was feudal Russia

kill yourself autist

>>80630749
>I own my house and the only person that could take it from me is the state.
>The only one that enforces rules on me is the state.
>And there is no property to take refuge from the state other than the church.
So literally and exactly just like in communism?

I think you people need to read a book maybe, to realize the difference between private property and personal property...

>>80630944
The difference is, that the capitalistic state that i'm in right now, wont take my house away.
And a real capitalistic state, one that doesnt exist, wouldnt take my house away either.
On the other side we have the communistic state that wouldnt waste a single second before setting up some disgusting prole in my yard.

>>80630650

And how will this magically change as our world only gets bigger and bigger? Somehow by taking people's wealth and redistributing it, we become more free? Communism is a nice thought but unfortunately it doesn't work in a big diverse country. Just a fuckin pipe dream really. Just accept reality and become your own escape. You must look inward for peace, don't rely on external influence.

>>80630856

>Peopol died from capitalism

I'd rather be dead than red.

>>80631091
>The difference is, that the capitalistic state that i'm in right now, wont take my house away.
Capitalistic states routinely take people's houses away, I can even describe to you the process in great detail, how courts inflate small debts and start proceedings to steal people's houses and make them the bank's property, and then the banks sit on them and use them for nothing or attempt to charge rent to people who were originally in them.

You must be in one of the capitalistic countries that exploits other "capitalistic" countries, this is being done in pretty much 50% of them (the "poor" 50% that has people and resources sucked out from them via globalism and funneled into the "rich" 50%).

Capitalism doesn't even work as an economic model without this process of exploitative expansion, and even that isn't enough anymore, so they have to steal the commons and repackage and sell it back to the people at a markup.

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>>80630856

>look at these blog posts and tell me communism doesn't work

Are communists the most delusional faggots ever?

>>80631143
>Communism is a nice thought but unfortunately it doesn't work in a big diverse country.
So is capitalism.

Nothing works in a big diverse country, that's the problem.

You should look into distributism.

>>80631316
>You must be in one of the capitalistic countries that exploits other "capitalistic" countries
I live in a first world country, you're right.
And no, i dont care about your shithole third world country and that we're exploiting it.
Should've been born in a real country.

>>80631316

>People need to be deprived in order for others to thrive in the modern world

Wtf I hate capatalism now?

>>80631316
>Capitalism doesn't even work as an economic model without this process of exploitative expansion
Communism is no different

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>>80631387

Distributism

Gimme the quick rundown if you would.

>>80624623
Three Different Ones is one of their best songs though

>>80630933
Seeing as Orwell was a socialist he wouldn't have made much of a distinction between Russian nobility and modern western capitalists. They were all portrayed the same (as humans) along with Hitler in the story. The story ends with the Pigs (communist party leaders) joining them.

>>80631401
>I live in a first world country
So why do you seem to have the attitude of an American?

>>80631641
There are subtle changes, the pigs promise thing they originally want keep, until Snowball dies and so does the ideal, George became enamoured with a far more libertarian ideal of socialism in the Spanish Civil War which shows through in everything after he wrote Homage To Catalonia

>>80631544
It's basically small-scale capitalism combined with something that's very similar to socialist Yugoslavian self-governing system.

Everyone is supposed to own enough property to satisfy at least their basic needs, mass production is discouraged in favor of craftsmanship, smaller scale production, local organization, artisan guilds, and so on. Monopolies are discouraged. It is encouraged to share the means of production in local communities. Family is the principal unit of society.

G.K. Chesterton supported this to a great extent.

Just read the wiki, it has a pretty decent overview.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism

>>80631702
Because i realised that your attempts at creating a great utopia for everyone is a completely foolish and pointless endeavor.
I also realised that we arent all born equal and that trying to force them to be equal is impossible.
The only logical conclusion is to get yourself the best possible deal out of the situation while disregarding the lives of the millions of people you exploit.

>>80631950

Interesting, I'll read up on it.

>>80624219
How dark was the 1954 version of the movie? I'm more familiar with the 1990 version which was more upbeat and uplifting.

>>80630858
He fought for an anarchist millitia in Catalonia wich was destroyed by a Soviet sponsored communist millitia wich was later destroyed by Franco's army.

>>80630858
>>80632884
Forget Animal Farm, why hasn't anyone made a George Orwell movie, or any other writers during that decade?

>>80632975
Because nobody cares about him sadly.
And because his works completely contradict everything (((they))) are trying to accomplish.

>>80633203
But Orwell was writing a novel based on his view of what was happening to Communism at the time. Blame Russia and China for overthrowing their monarchs and jumping directly into Communism without a Capitalist system to make the transition smoother.

>>80624274
One by our 7/11.

>>80632884
They should make a good unbiased movie about the Spanish civil war some day.

>>80633695
>unbiased
Won't happen bud. They'll just keep pushing the "muh evil Franco" narrative while ignoring all the republican crimes that were the cause for the war.

>>80630650
Both the United States and the UK had in their common law the concept of 'freedom to roam', which basically meant a person was allowed to pass through any non-productive or residential land without being considered a trespasser. Its most expansive form actually took shape in the early United States as a reaction to the coerced rent seeking and punitive measures which administrators' of the king's royal property had taken against colonists in the past.

England's version is still somewhat functional, although they recently revoked the general right to free habitation on public land merely because the land is unused and domesticating is your right. Ironically, the right to roam in the United States has been virtually abolished.

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>entire stores dedicated to renting movies

Was this seriously a thing?

>>80624219
>People forgetting about how how the initial idea and first pigs to implement it are depicted as heroes against the horrors of capitalism
>It clearly is a story of Napoleon destroying a society on its way to liberation from capitalism
>Snowball is a hero, so is Marx's alter ego.
>"See guys human nature!"
Just as Hitler proves that capitalism with a human face is impossible because human nature.

>Not true capitalism.

>>80633813
>>Both the United States and the UK had in their common law the concept of 'freedom to roam',
Yet they don't anymore, and everything has been privatized to the point that when you go to a public manifestation you're in someone's private space and must act as they wish, not as you (and the people) wish. And this was only the early stage of "privatizing the commons", look at what they've done to socialization, communication, expressing thoughts, even having sex or courting someone, it's all routed through private companies to the point where you interface with people through one or multiple layers of technology, all owned by someone else.

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>That one guy who thinks communism will ever work

What did he mean by this?

>>80627666
more like OH MY AIDS

>>80634133
But tbf m8 the right itself derived from older, more esoteric traditions which for a long interval expanded and thrived simultaneously with the industrial revolution.

It would be nice if we could figure out how to preserve those aspects of our idealized 'liberties' which are already realized as the customs of old tradition, or at least perpetuate their practice through whatever materialist social order we are currently inhabiting.

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>Animal Farm

How has this book NOT been banned from universities?

Well back when I was in middle-school our literature teacher got in trouble for reading it too us.

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makes ya think

>>80624453
It's called an "allegory', you illiterate retard.

>>80626319
It gives a socially acceptable platform for con-artists and shysters to abuse the wealth of the middle class.

t. citizen of a socialist democracy

>>80630558
>Statistically, more people starve to death every few years in capitalist countries, than died from any unnatural causes including starvation, mass killings, etc. under the entire worldwide historical reign of communism.

Post source for this claim

>>80630285
Free from what ? You have no freedom when you put value on it, only the choice to be a better slave

>>80635393
See >>80630856 - it has sources for everything.

>>80630249
There are people who can't afford insurance, your country create homeless people and let them die in the street, that is the price for your system. Yes it can feel good for you because you can buy things to play with them to pass time, like a child with his toys. But you are still living among angry people who may easily think their bad situation comes from people who can buy privileges and corporation who decide to sell said provileges. You can easily lose it all against nothing because other still fight to achieve the bare minimum of their necessities. You may have a good job and a good life, but that doesn't make your system good.

>>80626202
Except it's fundamentally flawed. It's not in a stable equilibrium because the incentives are ALWAYS aligned against it.

Look, in a communist system the optimal strategy is to do no work and enjoy the fruits, but if everyone played that strategy it collapses, so authority has to compel everyone to work just to perpetuate itself. Therefore, extreme, violent, brutal authoritarianism is a feature of far left economics, not a bug.

Communism doesn't even work in theory.

>>80637745
>>Look, in a communist system the optimal strategy is to do no work and enjoy the fruits,
ONLY if you think there is only one value system, which is materialistic/monetary, which is of course a characteristic of capitalism.

Once you introduce several other parallel value systems, in which people are respected for different things (for example academic accomplishment, social/cultural accomplishment, labor accomplishment, spiritual accomplishment, and so on), suddenly people have other motivations to participate in society that aren't strictly related to having material goods.

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>>80626202
>"real communism is an utopia, just an ideal that canot be reached, guys"
>try communism again
>fail
>"i-it wasn't real communism! try once more!"

>>80637993
What is the "success state" or the ultimate goal of capitalism?

>>80637969
Except that's precisely what you have in Western liberal democracy.

Besides, the materialistic the bedrock that supports all other endeavours, someone has to be making the bread for the artists to eat.

Actually, only a system that efficiently delivers you wealth (wealth is defined to be the increase of utility, when I take wood and turn it into a chair, I increase wealth, or when I take soil and seed and turn it into corn I increase wealth) can you to have any other value system.

I trust you agree with me on this, if you don't, I suggest you read of society in the North Korean famine, and therefore, a capitalist society best delivers a society not devoted to having material goods.

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SPD+Greens+Communist

CANNOT WAIT

MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN

>>80638044
>the ultimate goal of capitalism?
There is none, because it's not a unified theory of political history like Marxism's Communism.
>What is the "success state"
Doing better than last year.

>doesn't know about Animal Farm
>still rents movies from a store
Are you some kind of illiterate time traveler?

>>80631339
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_in_the_United_States
"The United States produces far more food than it needs for domestic consumption - hunger within the U.S. is caused by some Americans having insufficient money to buy food for themselves or their families."
"Almost 16 million children lived in food-insecure households in 2012.[17] Schools throughout the country had 21 million children participate in a free or reduced lunch program and 11 million children participate in a free or reduced breakfast program. The extent of American youth facing hunger is clearly shown through the fact that 47% of SNAP (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program) participants are under the age of 18."
"In comparison to other advanced economies, the U.S. had high levels of hunger even during the first few years of the 21st century, due in part to greater inequality and relatively less spending on welfare. As was generally the case across the world, hunger in the U.S. was made worse by the lasting global inflation in the price of food that began in late 2006 and by the financial crisis of 2008. By 2012, about 50 million Americans were food insecure, approximately 1 in 6 of the population, with the proportion of children facing food insecurity even higher at about 1 in 4."

>>80638121
>Except that's precisely what you have in Western liberal democracy.
Sure, in the enlightenment era. Post-WW2, not so much.

>someone has to be making the bread for the artists to eat.
Yes, the worker, who is praised and practically revered as the backbone of society in communism. Everyone respects the ideal of the worker.

>>80638131
If this guy with his open support for destruction of ethno states wins, EU is truly done for and mayhem comes back to the continent.

>>80638168
>There is none
Then you can't say if it succeeded or not.
>Doing better than last year.
How do you measure "better" when there is no end goal? Better in what sense, what is the ultimate "good"?

>>80634407
He don't seem to believe it could work, at least not now nor in the near future. But I read how communism is an ideological response to the inherent problems of capitalism while stupid suck on Jewish dicks