Silence

>>79131629

The Jesuits are not supposed to come off looking great.

One of the brilliant aspects of the movie, like the best Scorsese movies, is that he doesn't lay out a simple black and white morality. It's unclear whether we should be accepting the arguments of the Jesuits or the Buddhists.

Rodrigues is meant to be seen as a weak character with a Jesus complex who very much fails to live up to those standards.

>>79131691
I didn't expect them to come off looking great, I just figured they'd have more going for them than completely self-centred faith.

>>79131727

I think Garrpe balances that out to some extent. He is not nearly as militant as Rodrigues and the sequence in which he swims out to the Christians being drowned is gorgeously sad and sacrificial.

The movie is largely about the dangers of religious fervor and colonialism though. Why did you expect them to look good? Scorsese isn't so naive as to think that dudes forcing religion on another culture are heroic.

>>79131814
Garrpe wasn't really in the movie enough for me to understand his motivations. And his sacrifice came off more as just poorly planned suicide to me.

>>79131903

Seems like you're missing a bit of the point man. That scene pretty clearly emphasizes Garrpe's refusal to allow more people to die for his sake, it is a moment of desperation. A refusal to apostatize but an inability to see the destruction that decision causes. It's terrifying.

>>79131903
Garpe's death was used to break Rodrigues character. It made him feel helpless, a coward, a little man. And also Rodrigues unconsciously thinks of himself better than Garpe, revealed by the dialogue between them, yet he did not have the courage to emulate his sacrifice.

>>79131727
Problem is very few directors understand 'faith' and they find it difficult to represent especially since most are preoccupied with nihilism. The Young Pope is a fairly good example of this, look at how explicit they have to make prayer and miracle, how they have to make faith about some inner dilemma over whether God exists. It misses the reality completely because they want big characters.

>>79132241

You know Scorsese is a deep Catholic who has been exploring faith in his movies for 50 years, right?

>>79132292
So wait, this is as deep as Catholicism gets? It's like babies first philosophical argument.

>>79132337

How is it an argument about faith? The movie is about the dangers of religious devotion and the difficulties that are in a world that can prevent someone holding on to their faith. It is supposed to show the agony that faith can cause for the faithful and those around them.

>>79131629

>the Jesuits just came off as the worst fucking cunts in the world.

The Buddhists probably had them beat this time around.

Then again I don't really want Jews or Muslims in my country, and if I could have a do-over I'd ban the Christians too.

>>79132337
You're actually a retard if you think religion, and particularly Christianity, doesn't explore the deepest of philosophical arguments.

>it's another religious murrican movie

>>79131629
I thought it was a great film. Just as I thought Scorsese lost his touch, making nothing but mediocre trash like Wolf of Wallstreet and Hugo, he comes along and puts out this magnificent film.

>Catholic
>Bible Thumping American
pick one

Most Bible Thumpers hate Catholics.

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>>79131629
You don't have any empathy for people being tortured for hours on end because they believe something different to you? You're a monster.

Non American Atheist here who's reached a higher plane of intelligence.

>>79132449
>not wanting an obvious negative influence in your country
>killing a few farmers and invaders for that reason
The nips literally did nothing wrong. The whole movie, I was waiting for even a single one of them to do something bad, but they were completely amicable in the face of absolute absurdity.

>>79131629
I did not like the scene were "god" spoke to rodrigues, for me it was not loyal to the premise of the film. I wanted this movie to be darker, heavier and more epic-like. And Liam Neeson character was soo bland and boring... Props for Kichijiro tho. It wasn't a bad movie overall.

>>79131629
Nice reddit bait 8/10

>>79132449
I remember sitting in on a friend's history class when in Japan. (It was in English.) They talked about how the Budhists met great reistance in Japan too.

>>79132506
This is based on a book by a Japanese dude with European priests.

>>79132667

t. fedora

This is an obvious example of a film that /tv/ is simply too full of dumb people to talk about

>>79132678

What do you mean about the moment where God speaks to Rodrigues? How is that not loyal to the premise? You are aware that scene isn't indicating that God is actually speaking to him, right?

>>79132678
Rodrigues was going nuts on adrenaline, malnourishment, sleep deprivation and dehydration, if you take the voice of God as literal then you're too much of a brainlet

>>79132807
I would have prefer silence. I don't need to be babysitted throughout the movie.
Felt cheesy, but that's just my opinion.

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>>79131629
Some parts of this film kind of annoyed me like the part when he was looking into the river and saw himself as Jesus I knew that right away from how he looked but they still felt the need to put and actually picture of Jesus there.

>>79132878

I mean, do you understand the point of that scene? Rodrigues is hallucinating. Why do you think the voice of "God" is the voice of the father from the beginning of the film? He is lost and clinging on to anything to justify his apostasy.

>>79132858
Hey genius, don't you know what these(" ") are for?

>>79132887
that picture of jesus is fucking spooky

>>79132887
Yeah that was cheesy, it looked like a fucking Instagram filter

>>79132887

The point is to show that he is hallucinating and his belief in himself as a Jesus figure is getting out of control. We are meant to be seeing his mindset. Why do people not understand that Scorsese's movies always try their best to capture the perspective of the main character? He is starting to lose his grip and we see that represented as he is seeing it. Jesus christ how can people not understand such simple film language?

>>79132887
Gotta appeal to the crowd who only went to see the movie because it has Star Wars baddie and Spidey mans.

All the western roles were HORRIBLY mis-cast. Only the priest the 2 are talking to at the start was any good.

>>79132899
You can perceive what's going through his head without reading it out loud.

>>79131629
This film just made me hate the japanese more. The amount of savagery that island had before America's liberation, disgusting.

Literally talking about a country that worshipped its Emporer as a god, awful backwards, caveman tribe worthy.

I hear their current PM is a nostalgiafag too, that country is going down.

It was an excellent film, but would have been better in Mel Gibson's hands.

>>79132949
In any film made 20+ years ago that would have been achieved just from him looking at his blurred bearded reflection in the water, simple, subtle and to the point.
The CGI was crude and comical

>>79132678
>I wanted this movie to be darker, heavier and more epic-like. And Liam Neeson character was soo bland and boring

You completely missed the boat, the film was dark and heavy before Neeson came in and it was central to the point of the film that he turns out to be so mundane and banal

>>79132989
I know man, I hear they don't even mutilate little boys TO THIS DAY.

>>79132989
Where there any Asian countries that were not totally evil before getting their asses kicked?

>>79132667

I mean, I understand it. But they did seem like kind of assholes.

Like, I would say;

>Soz. No more Muslims allowed in. We're full up.

Then hope they'd just kind of get sick of it and it'd go away in a few generations. Not ruthlessly wander around burning them alive drowning them.

>>79133093
Bhutan is pretty chill

>>79131814
>dudes forcing religion on another culture
The shogunate is the one forcing religion onto the peasants, not the missionaires.

>>79132858

You know it's deliberately left open for interpretation right?

>>79133059
Mundane and banal character does not need to be portraited by boring, flat acting. You believe in this movie, thats fine.

>>79133124
Yeah but my interpretation is the best one

>>79131629
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCKwtUXyU1k

>>79132989

To be fair - It's not like they asked you to join in.

Unless you were Chinese or Korean, you didn't have to deal with them, and their real depraved brutality was kept in house, until you dumb ass Americans introduced them to the rest of the world and we all had to cop their craziness for a few years.

>>79133102
How are you supposed to stop people converting if you aren't punishing them for doing so? The issue wasn't foreign priests, it was too far gone to stop by banning them anyway.

Thanks to the efforts made back then, Japan is still 99% Buddhist.

>>79133166
> It's not like they asked you to join in.
> Until they sucker punch your navy

Hmm

>>79133189
>Japan is still 99% Buddhist.

More like Legalists

>>79133189

How many are going to convert, really?

If you ban them from public displays or building temples/churches etc, they'll lose interest and assimilate.

They might keep some knick knacks and hold overs, but it would dilute and disappear.

You don't need to punish them by setting them on fire.

>>79133207

You're aware American forcibly opened up Japan to the world decades prior to that right?

You're the idiots who let the loonies off the reservation and it eventually came back to bite you in the ass.

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>>79133337
>How many are going to convert, really?

The Romans probably had people saying the same thing

>>79133337
The people who were actively punished in that way were only the devout, people who were so far gone that they couldn't even step on a fucking picture. They're the dangerous ones. Killing them in painful ways isn't so much a punishment, as it is a threat to the rest.

>>79131629
why are christians so pathetic? Muslims conquered most the known world and wouldn't have tolerated capture by primitive japanese untermensch.

>>79133463
And they'd be decapitated in the first five minutes of the film

The Inquisitor was easily the best character in the entire movie.
The suggestion that the villagers literally didn't understand the concepts they were worshiping was also fairly interesting.

I actually really liked this movie, it leaves quite a bit for you to process on your own and find your own interpretation instead of ham fisting the directors own beliefs.

I watched this in Japan and have a question. Was the Japanese dialogue subtitled for you guys?

Obviously the English was subtitled in Japanese for the audience but when it came to the Japanese speaking I couldn't follow much. I was wondering if you're supposed to be in the same situation as the Jesuit and not understand their words.

I thought the old guy was fantastic, he was originally supposed to be played by Ken Watanabe.

The Liam Neeson character was also supposed to be played by Daniel day Lewis which I think would have been a lot better.

I had a good laugh when he started talking with his Irish accent.

Overall I didn't really enjoy it, felt boring and didn't really get started for me.

Shot beautifully and great audio as expected. Visit Taiwan if you haven't already, beautiful country

>>79134383
Most of it was, which I felt detracted from the film a bit. I can understand subtitling the one time the Jesuits actually tried to talk Japanese, but I felt like the rest was mainly a mistake. Only the part where Inoue is talking to the Kristians felt like it could potentially use subs, and even then it was probably more interesting without.

The only parts I can remember not being subbed are the few lines at the very start, and the woman's confession.

>>79132665
Adults who believe in magic should be sterilized at the very least.

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>>79135077

>be japanese peasant
>shittiest part of the social ladder
>absolute loyalty to shogunate or get killed
>pay taxes or get killed
>absolute obedience to samurais or get killed
>sometimes you and your friends get conscripted to fight wars against other lords
>sometimes people came back from wars with weapons and money
>sometimes they came back with one arm or one leg less
>most of the times people don't came back at all
>your life is nothing but work till exhaustion and then you die
>weird white guy appears in your village one day
>he says you can be happy after you die
>actually the after death there is a kingdom for the lowest of the low
>there's something after the suffering for you
>all you have to do is pray to their god and eat some magic bread each week
>okay.jpg
>But one day the Shogün decides he wants a new castle
>and the taxes keep growing and growing
>inflation, what the fuck is that?
>famines, yeah i know what that is..
>one day some of the old soldiers decide they are fed up with this bullshit life
>they start talking openly about killing the tax collector
>your neighbours and your sons agree
>you go out with them
>you go to ambush some samurai and the tax collector
>holy fuck, we killed them!
>some other villages hear about what happened
>they want to join
>the old soldiers get the money and use it to pay some ronin
>suddenly you are in the center of a rebellion
>holy fuck, there are thousands of people here!
>one day you take one castle
>holy fuck, this is working!

>>79135463

>winter is coming, we better pass the cold months here
>hear rumors about an army
>one day, the rumors are not rumors anymore
>thousands of soldiers are in front of you
>with proper weapons, trained
>with gunpowder and guns
>now you are besieged
>days pass
>now there is no food
>people start talking about giving up
>you pray to god for food
>weeks pass
>now there is no water
>you pray to god for rain
>despair.exe
>some night hear noises on the wall
>holy fuck, the army is here!
>they slaughter your companions
>they slaughter your friends
>they slaughter your sons
>somehow you escape into the woods
>now you are alone and cold in the wild
>hide behind every rock and tree
>somehow you come back to your village
>some of your old comrades are there too
>they tell you about how they were spared
>the samurai discovered that many of the rebels were christian
>they executed the christian prisoners
>and let one of each ten alive
>now christianity is forbidden
>if you pray you get killed
>if you dont insult your god you get killed
>if you dont burn up your christian icons you get killed
>if you dont give up your christian heaven you get killed
>if you dont pay MORE taxes as compensation for rebellion you get killed
>so you endure in your shitty life working till exhaustion just to live another day
>and secretly pray an oration during the nights
>and secretly meet every week with other christians to eat the magic bread
>hoping that your god has not forgotten you

>>79135492
God sure is a dick for not caring about this poor peasants situation and deciding whether or not he gets in Heaven based on whether he eats bread or not.

>>79131691

This. What I got from the movie is that theres effectively no difference between Rodrigues and the Jap who kept selling people out.

Both stuck to their belief, whilst eventually discarding the practices that define the belief system.

>>79135492
>one night, you see the boat of some chinese smugglers
>whatever. i'm going to mind my own bussiness
>two weird white guys appear in your village
>oh boy, they are ugly
>holy fuck, they are christian priests!
>they say our prayers have been heard
>they say that god has not forgotten us
>they say salvation is still possible
>tears

>but the shogun has heard about the smugglers
>he knows the christian priests are hiding somewhere
>he summons three peasants to be killed from each village
>i'm old, i have no sons and i'm tired
>so i volunteer

>soldiers come for us the next day
>they take us to the seaside
>they strap us into some wooden cross
>they put us in the ocean
>and the tide begins to rise
>then i pray to god and i hear nothing but the waves
>and the silence of nature

If you aren't religious in some way, you won't enjoy Silence or understand the main character

>>79135594
>empathy is only possible when you have an undefined religious belief
Anon, no. That's not how it works.

>>79135594

I'm not religious and I enjoyed it and understood the main character fine.

Should I have pretended not to?

This movie is a huge fucking pleb filter and I love Scorsese for it.

Scorsese channeling his senpai Bergman: the film.

>>79131629
This movie is too smart for them. I'd be surprised if more than 20 people in the Bible belt saw this movie and enjoyed it.