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How was he wrong?

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How was he wrong?
>>
He wasn't. People only gave him shit because he represented authority. Not only was he right, he also tried his earnest to reason with Cap even after his best friend becoming a cripple.

Cap covering Bucky's ass regarding Tony's parents was also the biggest dick move ever.

In the comics Cap was also an unreasonable dickwad the entire time.
>>
Everyone was wrong for reasons they couldn't correct without becoming completely different people.
>>
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Cap confirmed his pleb status in CW. Really looking forward to his sacrificial death in Infinity War :)
>>
if superheroes would exist irl they wouldn't be allowed to wreck shit up willy nilly, especially when they level buildings while fighting their own

cap was a cunt
>>
He wasn't wrong in supporting the accords and wanting to take Bucky in, but putting everything in the hands of that Ross guy and the MCU government (who we've already been shown has been infiltrated by highly corrupt people and had HYDRA ties) was pants-on-head retarded.
>>
civil war in the movie was so disappointing both the reason and the players

it was like between 8 people. how is that a """war""" more like civil altercation

comic did it better
>>
>>78999027
>if superheros were real they wouldn't be allowed to

... who would stop them?
>>
>>78999130
>how is that a """war"""

Because the eight of them alone could wreck a city, look what they did to the fucking airport
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>>78998972
>prime lohan
best jailbait that ever was
>>
>>78999141
a shit load of people

or there was that comic where superheroes were monitored by a cia squad, who would proceed to fuck their shit up if they went too far or stepped out of line with their powers
>>
>>78999130
Comic was a pile of shit. At least in the movie they aren't trying to fucking kill each other over political bullshit, only to turn around on a plate and go *what have we done??!"
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>>78999187
prime lohan was in the parent trap
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>>78999286
>>
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>>78999141
>... who would stop them?
These guys nearly obliterated the Avengers in the first movie.
>>
>>78999306
You need to go back
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>>78999321
They didn't do shit, they implied they would do something, which literally means they could do nothing
>>
>>78999321
Would a nuke kill Thor? Or Vision?
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>>78999350
Maybe Thor, definitely not Vision
>>
>>78999391
It was a big nuke.
>>
He wasn't, at least not to his knowledge. Much like in Winter Soldier, Cap's entire argument rested on the government being secretly controlled by a Nazi syndicate.

The supposed philosophical disagreement was merely a failure to communicate. Marvel movies, well, superhero movies in general have zero depth. Aside from Unbreakable.
>>
>>78998660
Nah, in the comic Tony was actually wrong.
Cause you HAD to register if you had superpowers. If They were not prosecuting the vigilantes, but every metahuman. Even the ones that wouldnt go out there in mask and capes
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>>78999321
Yes but they were stopped, by one of the less powerful members who has flight, now that they have both Vision and Wanda.
>>
>>78999423
U U U U[spoiler/]
>>
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Because the UN is an incompetent organization and the Avengers are far more effective freelance.

The only one who actually causes any significant problems is Tony himself. He's taking his own guilt for his own mistakes out on his whole team. The only one who actually needs supervision is him.

>lol I'm done Pepper, I blew up all my suits impulsively
>woops forget it I'm back in it
>lol let me turn our ragtag team into an automated worldwide peace keeping corp
>those guys that would've nuked New York city if we weren't there? Yeah let's trust them
>the government has been infiltrated by HYDRA and nearly used my airships to destroy the world, lmao oh well we answer to the UN now
>>
What I don't get (and maybe it is because I didn't read the comics) is why registration was a problem for people whoae power sets were battlesuits or specialty weapons, i.e property not people. It's not like the world didn't already know who they were anyways
>>
>>78999130
I took the title to mean it was the beginning of a Civil War between powered peoples. There is an attached extended universe to this thing that includes tv and other movies.
>>
>>78999321

I was kind of disappointed when it turned out the lady member was just Widow in disguise. Something about Jenny Agutter as an old badass former spy taking down Robert Redford made me really happy. In my pants.
>>
>>78999445
What Vision? The one that got distracted by some boobies and put a fellow avenger in the hospital?

>they were stopped, by one of the less powerful members
>iron man
>weak member
wat
>>
>>78999321
If those people are supposed to be good guys, why are they lit like evil guys?
>>
>>78999662
Well they would need a special permit for that weapon or something. Tony Stark wouldn't have been allowed to run through the streets firing an automatic rifle at some robbers before becoming Iron Man. Why should it be any different just because he's now wearing a robot suit and using lasers instead?
>>
>>78999781
They were the evil guys, we just wouldn't find out for another two years.

Deepest lore.
>>
>>78999781
Because they work in the shadows. They're supposed to be like the Illuminati. Top secret organization that pulls the strings from the shadows.

Wheadon being the big dumb retard that he is took that literally.
>>
>>78999841

Yeah, and the original ending made they and qt Maria Hill look shady as fuck. I'm glad it got cut.
>>
>>78999662
>>78999818
What I don't get is how Tony fought giving his property to the government for so long, then tries to force registration on individuals who are not using property for their abilities
>>
>>78999750
Compared to Thor, Vision and Wanda, Iron man is B-tier. And out of the suit he's the physically weakest.
>>
>>78999866
Well, it's shown throughout the movie that Tony has been having a bit of stress because of his parents' death and pepper leaving him. Then Viola Davis guilt-trips him into signing the accords. Tony is a flawed man.
>>
>>78999887
>And out of the suit he's the physically weakest.
Why even bring that up?

>>78999887
>Compared to Thor, Vision and Wanda, Iron man is B-tier
Power is relative.
>>
>>78999866
He felt super guilty over Ultron and decided sucking the governments dick was better than having a bunch of people be mad at him.
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>>78998551
you can't grab a pistol like that
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>>78999989
Ultron was his fault, but he was a dick for forcing others to register
>>78999925
Still not an excuse
>>
>>78999958
>Why bring it up?
Because it's his biggest weakness and if you compromise the suit you've basically nullified him in a fight.
>>
>>78998551
Can anyone explain what the fuck happened in this exact shot? I've only seen the trailer and it always had this shit. Iron Manlet grabs the gun, it shoots then he looks all surprised. Did he push the gun far enough to not blow his brains out? Did his glasses deflect it or something retarded like that? It's so bad.
>>
>>79000120
He has a little gadget on his wrist that gives him his iron man glove or whatever, it can block bullets apparently
>>
>>78999486
>The only one who actually causes any significant problems is Tony himself. He's taking his own guilt for his own mistakes out on his whole team

True, but it's partly their own fault for not doing anything about the guy on their team who is clearly unstable, suffers from PTSD and makes compulsive decisions purely based on his current emotional state and fears.
>>
>>79000120
He has a wrist watch gadget that turns into a mini gauntlet which stops the bullet. He looks surprised because Bucky was going to blow his brains out.
>>
>>79000172
WOW
>>
>>78999442

Does this look like /co/? What the fuck does the comic matter? We're discussing the film.
>>
>>78998551
imo this was one of the better moments in the film
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>>79000087
>Because it's his biggest weakness and if you compromise the suit you've basically nullified him in a fight.
And if you take away the soul gem from vision you nullify vision. This argument is going nowhere. It's pointless.
>>
>>78998551
Because holding a gun like that is going to have the brass burn your hand.
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>>79000298
Yeah but Tony takes off the suit and is often buttfucked by villains when he happens to be out of the suit.
>>
>>79000231
after all the bullshit in the mcu this really surprises you?
>>
>>78998551
In theory, Tony was not wrong. But the thing is that he was only willing to sign the accords to get peace of mind. He's '''''flawd''''' and can't handle guilt. Back in Iron Man 1, when he saw what his weapons did to soldiers and innocent people, took down the weapon development of Stark Industries and became Iron Man. Now, being Iron Man and the one behind Ultron, he needs to look for a way to shift the guilt. So the next time a lady comes saying "u kill my son" he could go "lol the goverment sent me". Same thing with Pepper. She won't be able to throw a bitch fit because he's working under goverments orders, not his own.

On the other hand, Cap knows about the corruption and it was a smart move. After all is said and done, he knows how to swallow guilt and keep on going. Not telling Tony about Bucky killing his parents was... I don't know, something a parent would do to protect a kid from something they think the other can't handle. Not saying it was right, though.
>>
>>78999321
but they died in TWS?

This anon>>78999486 is right, Tony's mistake is thinking the team needs supervision when hes clearly the only one who needs it, Cap is right in that their actions and choices WILL be limited when they all sign the accords and that there will always be an Agenda behind every approved mission if they decided to work with the UN
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>>79000481
>flawed

God damnit
>>
>>79000482
>but they died in TWS?
CUT OFF ONE HEAD TWO MORE SHALL TAKE ITS PLACE
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>>79000523
wards dead tho ;__;
>>
>>79000481
This. Plus Cap didn't actually know Bucky was the one that killed the Starks. He knew Hydra was involved and given Bucky was their top assassin it was an easy deduction, but he chose not to face that truth and cling to the hope it hadn't been Bucky.
>>
>>78999440
Have you seen Split?
>>
>>79000172
>>79000220
Wow that's fucking retarded.
>>
>>79000626
>I'm with you to the end
He knew what he did was wrong, but since Bucky saved his ass at the end of WAS, he felt he owed him, besides they made that pact 70 fucking years ago
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>>79000481
>something a parent would do to protect a kid from something they think the other can't handle
Nah it was mainly for selfish reasons. he knew if Tony knew, that Tony would have Bucky brought in, and the only thing Cap cared about was keeping Bucky safe. He didn't give a shit about Tony, not really.
>>
>>79000689
More retarded than what?
Super powers? Flying robot suits? Magic gems from space?
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>>79000717
That's not true. Cap was willing to let Bucky be aprehended as long as he got a fair trial and psychological help.
>>
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>>79000689
IS IT?
IS IT REALLY?

Tony's tech might as well be magic now. He has even craziest tech in the comics. The Iron Man suit was once made of nanobots and he manifested it from thin air.

The suit was stored in his bloodstream.

Let that sink in for a minute.
>>
>>79000689
>>79000120
How can you fail to see the gadget on his hand? It's clear even in OP image.
>>
>>79000717
In an ideal world, Cap would be alright with Bucky being placed in custody. Why? Because he would be secured, would get the help he needs and atone for what he did/was brainwashed to do.

But in the real world, Cap knows that Bucky will become the goverment lab rat. Especially now that half the Avengers didn't want to sign the accords. "Oh, you don't want to? Don't matter, in a couple of years we'll be pumping out Winter Soldiers under our command". That's why the red herring about other WS was such a big deal.
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>>79001355
I believe there are no references to this in the theater cut, probably to make Black Panther more sympathetic, but the deleted scenes and the script make clear Bucky is going to be extradited to Wakanda as a political move to smooth things over after the king got killed on a terrorist bombing on foreign soil, and will likely get tortured to death.
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>>78999270
>the boys

My negro.
>>
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>>78999321
wait a second, I know that dude on the far right
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>>79000832
>tony's suits are magic and thats ridiculous
>doctor strange is a literal magician
why do people try so hard to justify things in the marvel universe? it's entirely fiction just let it happen
>>
>>79001665
The thing is, even though Bucky was blamed for the King's death, he was already a wanted man because of the leaked information from TWS. So, even if T'Challa wanted to get him to Wakanda, Bucky was not going to get the extradition treatment.
>>
>>79002011
TURN
OFF
YOUR
BRAIN
BRAH
>>
>>79002339
>claims marvel shit insults his intelligence
>still continues to go and see them
???
>>
>>78998551
>It's a super hero property tries to tackle ethics of super heros and it isn't Watchmen the graphic novel episode
Every cape property from the dawn to the end of time that isn't written by Alan Moore is easily dismissable horse shit
>>
>>79002339
Ya'll can scheme about it if you want, I get it's like a "sport". I just never understood why comic book nerds were so hardcore about this and get pissed when it doesn't "make sense".

Marvel is so ass-backwards compared to Sci-Fi that it's kind of a waste to try and figure it out.
>lets create some crazy superhero power shit THEN justify it with science later!

just enjoy the badassery famalam
>>
>>78998551
He wasn't. Cap was almost in agreement with him. He just had to be a cocksmug shit. He was too busy feeling sorry for himself for living in the shadow of a guy that impressed his father, a guy that established over and over again that he always wants to do the greatest good.

He's right about accountability, but it's like he completely ignored the things that happened and led to the downfall of SHIELD.
>>
Tony let his personal feelings and guilt get in the way of the greater good. The mother of the guy that got killed in Cordovia confronts him and he decides that the Avengers were somehow in the wrong despite the fact that literally everyone on the planet would have died if they didn't stop Ultron. He spends the whole movie going on about MUH FEELINGS and MUH ACCOUNTABILITY but at the end he chimps out about Bucky because MUH MOM.

Tony was too easily swayed by his feelings.
>>
>>79003159
yet steve wasn't, despite his feelings/guilt over bucky?
>>
>>79003346

Tony was going to murder Bucky who had absolutely no control of his actions because of his feelings. Steve's feelings made him give Bucky a fair chance. Everyone was perfectly willing to believe Bucky perpetrated the bombing but Steve knew it was bullshit.
>>
>reddit faggots actually take this crap seriously
Post somewhere else nerds. This board isn't for you.
>>
>>79003453
>talking about tv or movies that he specifically doesn't like makes us reddit
>to insecure in his own shit to just hide or ignore the tread
>>
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>>79003453

>crying about capeshit on a board who's biggest meme is from capeshit

It's time to stop posting, son.
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>>79003453
Yeah, this space could be used for another Star Wars thread that starts with a shitpost and gets three replies
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>>78998551
he wasnt
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>>79003453
I find it ironic MCU threads actually discuss the characters and movies, while BVS is nothing but meming and crying about Marvel.
>>
>>79003151
>a guy that established over and over again that he always wants to do the greatest good.

Well from Tony's point of view, Cap had become a hypocrite and a liar by the end. Here's the guy who's always been lecturing him about 'trusting' each other and keeping no secrets from the team, while doing the exact same thing himself with Bucky.
>>
>>79005090

He was a complete hypocrite though, he was against the accords because "we superhumans simply know what's best for people better than the UN" and then he turned around and tried to prevent Bucky being captured by the proper authorities just because the two were friends 3 generations ago EVEN BEFORE HE WAS PROVEN TO BE SET UP.
>>
>>79005090
>>79005182
Bucky and Cap are BFF's.

Cap had the luck of being experimented on by not so bad people and after it, was found by not so bad people who helped him get used to the modern world. Bucky was found by psychos who tortured him and experimented on him against his will, making him unstable.

I don't know about you, but I would like to help my friend out. Be it by saving him or putting a bullet thru his brain.
>>
>>79005481
Tony wouldn't have sperged out and tried to kill Bucky if he hadn't learned how his parents died the way he did. He was ready to help Cap AND Bucky before he saw the footage.
>>
>>79005182
You're missing two key-points

>Ross told Cap he'd have to hang up the shield if he didn't sign the Accords, and Cap actually accepted that.

>Cap went to bring Bucky in himself, to protect both him and the policemen, and shit escalated when Black Panther showed up.
>>
>>79005798
>>Cap went to bring Bucky in himself

Cap illegally entered a country, and attacked the police. It's the other way around. He could had go to ANY tv station and say i have an important thing to say, bucky you should surrender. But no, he went and put the lives of innocents in danger, cap IS A FASCIST cunt
>>
>>79005675
I agree that keeping that information was bad. But is there really a way to tell that to Tony and him not reacting badly to it? And when?

After TWS, when IM3 is going on and Tony is in full PTSD, then promises Pepper to leave that life behing? During AoU, with Tony creating a murder robot by accident because he was trying to 'retire' or something?
>>
>>79005675
Tony is a self-destructing man, anything can send him over the edge. Cap was trying to protect him someway or another.
>>
>>79005884
Oh, it's you.

/co/ not doing the trick anymore, eh?
>>
I'd wish that Tony remembered this guy more often. Liked how on the first movie he tried to make Tony put his shit back together and do actual good before his drunken parties and banging whores took him to his early grave. Also, more Howard. Man was a douche, according to Tony, but at least his most dangerous inventions stayed with him until the end.
>>
>>79006402
I smiled with his cameo in Iron Man 3.
>>
>>79006018
>>79006093
I dunno, how about getting the guy some kind of help with his blatant mental issues? He created an insane killer AI because he got spooked by PTSD and Wanda visions, spent billions creating a device so he could relive the moment he had with his parents before they died again and again, and no one figures 'hey, something is seriously wrong with him!'

Hell, Black Widow clearly knows he's not all 'there' in Civil War, but she does squat shit about it.
>>
>>78999781
Because Whedon said it made them look like a "council of weathermen." They were shown in proper lighting in The Winter Soldier.
>>
>>78999141
I dunno, the coast guard?
>>
>>79006645
Now that Pepper is head of Stark Industries, they totally should.
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>>79006645
Tony is on the Avengers because he's really, really smart. Remember that Black Widow wrote on her report that Iron Man (suit) is A-OK, but Tony Stark is not fit. Problem is that, MCU doesn't have any other tech smart guys so they have to put up with his bullshit.
>>
>>79006807
Pepper was kind of being cunt about his PTSD in Im3 though. Not to say Tony wasn't being an even bigger cunt.
>>
>>78998660

>Creates weapons for fun and profit
>End up in the hands of terrorists
>Creates insane evil AI
>AI kills tons of people
>Nearly destroys the earth
>"Gaiz we ALL need to be put in check"

No you do, you crazy alcoholic
>>
>>78999130

>comic did it better

Ha

The movie could be the worst capeshit ever made and it'd still be better than that abortion
>>
>>78999662

Comic registration was basically

>If you have special powers in general
>Or you run around wearing a costume fighting crime
>You have to register

With some fine print to the effect of

>And we can hunt you down even if you have powers and you decide to just never use them
>And you'll become a government lackey with no say under pain of imprisonment or death
>And your first assignment is hunting down fellow heroes
>>
>>79000689

>Has nifty collapsible armored utility glove
>Covers barrel before it shoots
>Isn't shot

What's retarded about it?

Panther does it later; he's wearing Vibranium armor.
>>
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>>79006905
Pepper lost herself in that toxic relationship with Tony. Not saying that she was any better, but she was "the adult" between the two.

Dr. Strange girl got it right. She walked out before she turned into a bitchy cunt.
>>
>>79003159

Not only that, the only Avenger who was in the wrong in regards to Ultron was Tony.

... and maybe Wanda.
>>
>>79007137
She walked out because Strange was a proper cock to her. Tony was snarky and full of himself but ultimately, harmless to her.
>>
>>79000258
>someone mentions the comic
>someone corrects them
>this guy can't relax

be chill dude. it IS a comic book movie.... it happens

>>79001355
Cap seemingly was alright with Bucky being in custody. He went to him to save him. He was worried the team sent to get him would just kill him. Or Bucky would kill people and it would escalate. He doesn't break Bucky out, he seems happy with the result
>>
>>78998660

He didn't cover for Bucky. Cap said he knew Tony's parents were murdered, but he didn't know Bucky was responsible.
>>
I still think it's bullshit that Iron Man didn't BTFO cap, his suit is so much fucking better than captain america's dumb fucking shield and super strength. I hate how they wrote that end fight
>>
>being like Hulk and Thor who can level entire city blocks shouldn't have any government oversight

Cap was 1000% wrong. The hulk is basically a walk thermonuclear bomb for fucks sake
>>
>>79007234

He was beating Captain though.

On his own just going berserk, Cap and Bucky are each a match for him, especially together. They've got experience he'll never have plus reflexes to match his armor. It's only when Tony basically turns on auto-pilot that he starts to win, and he loses because he lashes out at Bucky for touching him and allows Cap to disable him.
>>
>>79000717

Cap didn't know Bucky was the killer, you retard.
>>
>>79007295

Who's going to enforce them?

Dunno if you read the comics but Thor's response to Tony trying to strongarm him into registering was to break his armor, dare him and the guvment to try and make him, and force him to walk home.

Tony had to cover his ass by granting Thor some sort of Diplomatic Immunity.

Overall while Ross's point about the Hulk had some weight (though less so when you remember his own involvement in the Hulk's creation, and I didn't see Harlem getting rekt on those disaster videos), Thor not only has the power to do what he wants, he's not even a citizen of earth. His involvement with the Avengers is basically a courtesy; they have no control over him.
>>
>>79007185
Strange went down as a bigger SOB than Tony because it was just one movie. But on the long run, Tony was no better:

>Before IM1: Cleaning up after Tony. He just partied and created things, she took care of the company with Stein.
>IM2: I'm dying and I'm going to keep up fucking with the thing that's making me sick and being an asshole. I don't care that much, you can cry all you want.
>Avengers: We worked on this together but you can have 10% of the moment.
>IM3: Sure honey, I came back fucked up in the head but I won't get help. Super, you wont push me to get help either... Come to think of it, I'm leaving this behind... NOT!
>>
>>79007295

Right? Suppose somebody spills hot coffee on him, or he watches an interracial couple kiss, hulks out, hundreds dead.
>>
>>79007137
>suddenly your love interest appears out of a magical portal with a stab wound, tells you how to fix it as a sentient image, then leaves
I don't know if I'd try to hold a relationship with that either desu
>>
>>79007137
Maybe the secret is being a doctor? Having to go thru medical school (or the like) to not put up with so much shit?
>>
>>79007609
Banner can control the Hulk, though. He's only dangerous when victim of mind-control, and that applies to everyone enhanced or not.
>>
>>79007563
>you can have 10% of the moment.
That was a joke. They were a good couple in Avengers.


Anyway, the only reason she walked out is because Marvel is done paying Gwyneth.
>>
>>79007438
He must obviously have had a hunch, else he's a complete fucking retard. Also, since Bucky said he remembered everyone he killed, how come he didn't mention to Cap at any point 'hey Steve, you know our mutual friend Howard, the father of the guy you're currently having a bitchfight with? I might have killed him and his wife. You think that's going to create any further problems with this Tony guy?
>>
>>79007199
>Cap seemingly was alright with Bucky being in custody. He went to him to save him. He was worried the team sent to get him would just kill him. Or Bucky would kill people and it would escalate. He doesn't break Bucky out, he seems happy with the result

He was ok because Rhodey, Stark and Natasha, the ones who signed the accord, were all over that shit. He can trust them that they would try to make the process more fair for Bucky, Stark said so. But his initial fear was that the goverment was going to fuck up Bucky.
>>
>>79007802

Hell it wasn't even just fear, his girlfriend specifically told him they had execution orders.
>>
>>79007736
They weren't in IM3 though. She's constantly fed up with with him, for good reason..Leaving him after he just goes straight back to building suits and Ultron doesn't seem out of character at all.
>>
>>79007394
I feel like both bucky and cap together should be a win for iron man though. But I guess tony didn't want to kill cap so he held back? He could just use one of those laser things that cut everyone and their mother in half and be done with at least bucky (and cap if his bitchly shield wasn't in his way)
>>
>>79007736
>That was a joke. They were a good couple in Avengers.

I know it's a joke, but in a sub-level way he normalizes his huge ego.

>Anyway, the only reason she walked out is because Marvel is done paying Gwyneth.

Romance, in any capeshit, only goes two ways: fighting to be together or conflict. There's no healthy inbetween. What Superhero has a stable relationship without any over the top dramatic bullshit?
>>
>>79007926
They were inside a building/constrained by walls for most of the fight though. So he couldn't use the laser thing because it would cut through everything and bury them all in rubble in the process. Wasn't it also only good for 'one go' or something?
>>
test
>>
>>79008030
I mean in iron man 2 a cartridge popped out so I think he can reload it. I also don't think the laser can cut through all that concrete.
>>
>>79007979
>What Superhero has a stable relationship without any over the top dramatic bullshit?

Superman and Los Lane?

Flash and Iris, too.
>>
>>79007926
Iron Man can fly and shoot lasers. Of course he would win against both Super Soldiers. Didn't see them fight Stark during the airport battle. But sure: damaged suit and a closed space would make them more even. That and Tony hasn't killed anybody directly. Blowing up Stein, Whiplash, the aliens and the Extremis guy is not the same as doing it with your freaking hands. In that, both Cap and Bucky have experience.
>>
>>79008127
Wasn't he punching through terrorists in IM1? Pretty sure he was burning people alive and shit.

Should just have turned a flamethrower on Bucky, then shot him between the eyes with laser.
>>
>>79008231
IIRC in IM1 he grabbed one of the terrorist dudes and made him go thru the wall, but he was still alive so the people of the town he was tormenting could do their thing. He did set on fire, and blew up, a lot of habibis but it's the same. He just pressed a button.

He could've ignited Bucky, but the suit was malfunctioning already.
>>
>>79008118
I guess. Forgot the 3rd option: the one to go back home to.

"Oh sweety, how was [insert city]? Are you tired? I made dinner." And then you don't hear from them again until hero goes back home.
>>
File: those fucking sandniggers.jpg (340KB, 1920x800px) Image search: [Google]
those fucking sandniggers.jpg
340KB, 1920x800px
>>79008231
Yeah but those were brown people.
Thread posts: 139
Thread images: 15


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