Was he a bad guy, /tv/ ?

He wasn't himself

>>78939357

Noble intentions, unrealistic expectations, weak will.

He was cast as a villain from his first scene to make Aragorn's arc "more obvious" to the viewing public. A big mistake that diminished his character. They overestimated how dumb people are.

>>78939390
>weak will

That's how he's conveyed, but in the book, the point with Boromir and Denethor was that even very great men could be corrupted by the Ring. Even Gandalf and the Elves did not take its influence lightly.

>>78939357
They should have kept the character alive. he was awesome.

>>78939390
>>78939390
he just perfectly portrays mankind. He is courageous, brave, strong, loyal; but also can be swayed by evil and greed. He had all of mankind's strengths as well as our weaknesses.

>>78939357
Not in the slightest. His "weakness" is no different than any other man who came upon the Ring. But in the end, he broke free from its temptation and died fighting to protect his friends. He's a far more human and relatable character than Aragorn.

>>78939479
>our

It might be that way for everyone, or better, or worse. Who knows. We only have ourselves as a reference. It is incredibly likely that that interpretation is extremely flattering even as it is.

>>78939520
>He's a far more human and relatable character than Aragorn.

But what about his ghostspam?

>>78939357
He was a big guy.

>>78939357
flawed guy

not typical good guy, definitely not bad guy.

just a flawed guy, but redeemed. He didn't do anything that bad either.

>>78939707
4U.

join the fellowship they said

>>78939357
no. His betrayal was meant to show that even the best and most righteous of mankind could fall to the rings temptation.
Which shows just how based Aragorn was and why he decided to let Frodo go alone

Boromir redeemed himself in his final stand though

>>78939436
denethor was always a faget

>>78939357
No, he was a good guy who so desperately wanted to do the right thing and save his people that he was willing to sacrifice his honor and integrity to achieve that goal. After all, what was one man's fate when compared to the lives of millions?

He was a real human Bean

>my last name is Stewart
>friends used to rag on me, quoting Gandalf in RotK: "He is not the king. He is a Steward only. A caretaker of the throne".

Denethor II got as raw of a deal as Boromir in the films. The Stewards of Gondor had high Numenorean blood and were as rightful kings as any.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>78939357
No, he was a political idealist.

>>78939938
>The Stewards of Gondor had high Numenorean blood
I never knew this

>>78939357
I always felt he was the most human character of the fellowship

>>78939357
Childhood is idolizing Aragon, adulthood is realizing Boromir made more sense

he was our guy

>>78939739
>He didn't do anything that bad either
He tried to take the ring from Frodo, that's pretty bad I think. Yeah, men are more susceptible to the rings will, but Faramir and Aragorn for example fought against it successfully

>>78940634
Galadriel of all people appeared to be more tempted by the ring than Aragorn.

>>78940725
Despite being exposed to it for a much shorter time.

>>78940725
In the books Aragorn is 'tested' so to speak when they meet in the Prancing Pony, he says if he wanted to take the ring then he could have it. Aragorn doesn't even want the power granted by claiming his kingship of Gondor though possibly because he is a loner and has nothing to lose besides Arwen.

>>78939357
No, he was just meant to represent humanity. Good intentions but ultimately flawed.

>>78940725
Well Galadriel is the most bitter of the elves, so it makes sense for her to be tempted despite her high lineage.

>>78940849
>Aragorn doesn't even want the power granted by claiming his kingship of Gondor

I do not recall this being the case at all. Doesn't he mention it a lot and act like a special snowflake because of it?

>>78940760
bitches like shiny things, why do you think there was no mary sue in the fellowship

>>78940991
He does. In the books Aragorn doesn't go through the angst-phase, he makes very clear who he is and what is due to him. He's not a dick about it, though.

>>78939804
>>78939938
He was one of the greatest of a dwindling few men who retained pure Numenorian blood. But even he did not think he was worthy of being a true king of Gondor, as it would diminish the meaning of the true royal line, and that of the kingdom.

>Aragorn
>just some dude
>descendant of elf kings and demigods

OP
HAX

>>78940878
quality opinion, this is why I come to /tv/

>>78941065
well he gets Anduril at Rivendell so presumably it's all set up before the book for him to press his claim, at the same time he obviously isn't in a rush to do so. He visits Gondor as a young man and basically becomes Denethors right hand man as Thorondil or some guise and Boromir grows up getting told he is half the man Aragorn is and Faramir then grows up getting told he's half the man Boromir is. It is pretty tragic and Aragorn never apologises or acknowledges it. Then he spends like 5 years tracking Gollum into Mordor. It's clear that until that point Aragorn is not desperate and he even sneaks into minas tirith to heal people to prevent being spotted and named King.

>>78941225
>He visits Gondor as a young man and basically becomes Denethors right hand man as Thorondil or some guise and Boromir grows up getting told he is half the man Aragorn is and Faramir then grows up getting told he's half the man Boromir is.

Huh. What's that from?

you dumbasses

the entire plotline is based around Men being low in elvish blood, they're just weak all around nearly zombies compared to elves

>when you first see Aragorn in the bar.
Goddamn Fellowship was amazing and full of heart

too bad that the two that followed sucked

and good god let me wipe away the memory of Hobbit trash out of my mind

>>78941303
>too bad that the two that followed sucked
Contrarian

>>78941225
It's in one of the appendixs.

>>78941303
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-fSVZS2VyU

>>78941257
it's in the appendices of RoTK in full, in it Aragorn goes to Umbar and sets fire to the entire fleet to prevent an invasion. It goes into some detail on how he meets Thengel (Theodens father), Eomund (Eomer's father) and Imrahils father in Dol Amroth. Faramir and Boromir looked up to him as a brother, but neither ever finds out the truth.

>>78941303
All 3 are perfect films

>>78941423
feels like Battlefield Earth for some reason

>>78941522
nah, ROTK is weak as a film due to writing errors.
2Towers feels stakeless especially if you don't watch EE

>>78941441
>ever

Didn't Faramir find out?

>>78941423
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgqIh5F_rqE

What were his last words?

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>>78941651

Jesus Christ ! What the hell happend to Peter ?

>>78940522
>Boromir made more sense
by letting the ring literally destroy Gondor?
Yeah lotta sense there

>>78939357
He wanted #GloryForGondor and his intentions were noble but the greed for power corrupted his mind, he wasn't himself

>>78941651
Did Sauron often eat dwarves?

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>>78939357
I watch this with my gf last week, she was glad that he died in the end because he was the "bad guy"

>>78941733
Made more sense in that he was much more human and relatable.

If you or I were put in his shoes I'd wager we'd have done the same.

>>78939357
no

>>78941651
Looks just like harry potter. Hard to watch

>>78941710
he was rushed

>>78941605
Far as we know, no he never found out.

>>78941843
>Made more sense in that he was much more human and relatable.
fair enough

>>78941828
you need to hatefuck her for that

>>78939357
He was white therefore he was evil.

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>>78939838
Hey-Ohhhh!

>>78941441
Good thing studio heads don't read books or they might have wanted an Aragorn movie even if I really like the actor.

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>>78939390

>>78941904
Wasn't he alive during Aragorn's coronation?

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>>78942228
>see if it's any good

>>78941263
ITT people who entirely missed the fucking point

>>78939357
Nah he was a good guy. The whole point was that the ring was corrupting him, and his attempt to steal it was to show that the ring was the bad guy.

Most people forget that he died protecting the hobbits, and that he admitted that he fucked up to Aragorn.

>>78941651
The Wilhem scream at the end really sells it

>>78939838
>>78941950
That was gay, shame on you faggots

>>78942559
It's approaching so bad it's good territory.

>>78941828
Women were a mistake

>I do not know what strength is in my blood, but I swear to you, I will not let the white city fall, nor our people fail
>I would have followed you, my brother, my captain, my king
Seriously, hackson? This shit isn't passable by current standards!

>>78939938
>>78940193
Every single Numenorean house in Gondor renounced their claim to the throne simultaneously.
It's super ironic that you're quoting the motivation for the kin strife in the first place when everything right up to "try fucking the elves again" failed to increase their lifespans. Throwing in the towel was actually the right thing to do.

>>78943526
>"try fucking the elves again" failed to increase their lifespans
How come? Half-elven consequence of choosing to be a human rather than elven?

>>78943526
>"try fucking the elves again" failed to increase their lifespans
So Aragon and Arvens child won't have a longer lifespan?

>>78942301
Yes, but Faramir was young, think it works out that he'd be maybe 5 when Aragorn was 28 so he'd not remember Thorondil that clearly and also the years of travelling in the wild change Aragorn a lot.

>>78943849
>no high quality series of Aragorn's journeys
just kys me

>>78943770
Because the idea of it being a matter of a bloodline's purity in the first place was bullshit.
The intermingled Black Numenoreans were pushing four or five hundred during the second age.
>>78943817
The first generation new half elf lived to be about 200 instead of 130ish if I remember correctly but that delta was gone in two more generations. It didn't reverse the longterm trend at all.
Aragorn and Arwen's kid might get a little bump but we've already been down this road before.

Why didn't the Numenoreans choose to be elven if they wanted immortality in the first place? They're all half-elves, are they not?

>our people?

>>78939436
>take its influence lightly
Are you serious? Anyone that had the faintest idea of what it could do to them treated it like fucking cyanide. Gandalf was shitting himself over touching it, and you never saw an elf closer than ten paces from it.

>>78941828
This is an underrated pasta

>>78944029
>ywn know why Aragorn is familiar with the ringwraiths, watch his father die to a hill troll uprising or his exploits in Harad with the Blue Wizards.

>>78944196
Weren't the ringwraiths kangs

>>78941552
In the book Shelob is like the crescendo of Two Towers. But in the movie they split her between 2 and 3. It ruins the payoff.

>>78944353
shelob only appears in the third movie altho smeagol (i refuse to call him gollum) mentions "her" one or two times

>>78944454
>i refuse to call him gollum
Why?

>>78944454
And she is supposed to be the boss battle of film two. that's why I think the pacing felt flat

>>78944320
yeah but loooong dead by the time Aragorn is around (Sauron is called the Necromancer since the 9 sort of reappear with him during the Hobbit). Presumably he meets them in Mordor finding Gollum or possibly in his younger days.

>>78944508
Because I have to believe he can come back
>>78944564
Yeah, I get that but I was happy with what jackson did, I fucking hate the way grima and saruman dies in the movies, that shit pissed me off, but what jackson did adapting the books into movies in "film terms" is comparable to the second coming of jesus h. christ

>>78944693
>he can come back
He died but inadvertently saved Middle Earth from Sauron, and that I tink is more than you can hope for that poor bastard

>>78945086
>Tolkien has gollum literally just walking backwards over the cliff edge into the cracks of doom

so a dude who is some master climber suddenly just slips off a ledge?

>>78939440
>they

Tolkien was just one guy though.

>>78944090
I think you're misunderstanding how half-elves work in Tolkien's work. First of all there are no "half-elves", children born from a elf and a man can choose whether they become men or elves. Then they become men, or elves.

You can only choose if one of your parents was a man, and one was an elf. If you then have children with a member of your race, they will be the same race as you always. They don't inherit your half-elvishness because "half-elves" aren't really a thing.

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YO GUYS I JUST REALIZED THIS SHIT
frodo failed, the lord of the rings is not just a tale of
good vs evil, friendship, bravery, etc.
It's the tale of how a good man (hobbit) like frodo
has to live with his failures and face the fact that he will have no redemption at all

>>78945086
is just a line from the movies dude gee

>>78943526
My problem is that Denethor was portrayed as a weak and petty illegitimate pseudo-king in the films, when in the books he was a just and wise king who was only finally broken by the news that both of his sons had died, and his bloodline was severed. He's supposed to be the Middle Earth King Lear, but instead Hackson made him into a gluttonous fuckhead.

Denethor fucking resisted the corruption of Sauron more than did Saruman. He lived and gave his life for the people of Gondor, but nobody who only watched the movies knows this.

>>78945281
That's why he goes to demigod heaven at the end.

>>78945143
>literally just walking backwards over the cliff edge
Well he'd just got the ring back and he was dancing around wildly in excitement and then fell

>>78945338
This Denethor has multiple encounters with Sauron through the palantir and resisted him up until he found out both his sons were dead, then he went mad. He was never corrupted, unlike Sauromon.

>>78945215
Why didn't they just kidnap elves and drug them and make them breeding factories? Then the offspring chooses to become elves

Not a bad guy; he was simply misguided and redeemed himself by sacrificing himself for the hobbits.

>>78945215
elrond is literally called half-elf but yeah he's an elf

also i think that this choice was only given to sons of elros

>>78945338
word denethor's power of will was the greatest

>>78945652
They didn't want to be elves?

>>78945968
But they want immortality

>>78945945
Are Elrond's ears half-pointy?

>>78946007
Yeah, they were jealous of the elves' immortality, but I don't think they wanted to be elves. Also, the people wanting immortality couldn't get it by your rape-plan, only their offspring could so I don't see why they would do that

>>78939357
No, he was an honorable man. Very few can resist the ring.

>>78939357
Good guy that was tempted by the ring, but managed to redeem himself in the end. The movies also portray him as much more of an asshole than he was in the books, especially in his own relationship with Aragorn, but I guess you've got to have stuff like character arcs in movies to keep them engaging

>>78940725
one of my favourite scenes too

>>78946171
Exactly this, the ring preyed on his desire to save his people and all of middle earth from this great evil of legend.

Like that's the whole point of it, it whispers in your ear promising great things and grant you the power to accomplish them. And when it has you in it's grasp you'll either bring it to papa Sauron in a hand basket, or if you have the balls to resist the power it'll just corrupt the very life out of your bones.

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why didn't Elendil just beat the shit out of Isildur and throw the ring in the lava?

>>78946792
>Elendil

>>78939976
>9976>>78939357(OP)
NOT A MURDERER

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>>78946824
****Elrond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7X1BCCH9a8
What did he mean by this?

>>78946939
>men are weak
degenerate liberal cuck slander
>blood of numenor is spent
because of miscegenation

>>78939357
The ring used his goodness to corrupt him; his desire to protect his people.

>>78946707
>the ring preyed on his desire to save his people
The ring prayed on his desire to be a great victorious military leader, not his desire to save his people

>>78946939
Hacksonry. Elrond goes on no wild racist rants in the books.

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>You will never see this guys in a battle

>>78947064
Was not he already a great victorious military leader?

>>78947111
He had greater ambitions. Faramir told Frodo about how Boromir wanted them to become kings of Gondor, not just Stewards. And when he talks about what he's going to do with the Ring, he goes quickly from "beat Sauron" to "rule all men (benevolently of course!)."

>>78944353

I really wish they didn't fuck around with stuff so much. I thought the shelob scene in ROTK was great. The hobbits in TT don't seem to do much or enough for my taste. Their adventure feels so slow. They miss out on doing a BIG ASS CLIFFHANGER. Or Sam needing to save Frodo between movies. Instead the hobbits story in TT ends with Gollum just saying "this way" I can't believe Jackson ok'd that ending for TT. They completely cut Sam and Frodo getting caught up in the war. Them in disguises would have been really fun to watch. Do we see an empty Mordor in the extended editions? Cause the whole point of the hobbits sneaking in works cause the orcs send all their men to fight armies.

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>>78947110
i have

>>78947307
>Instead the hobbits story in TT ends with Gollum just saying "this way"
But just before that, doesn't Gollum talk about evil plans (to take the Hobbits to shelob) and it's up to the next film to explain what those plans are?

>>78947307
That would have not worked since the movies follow a chronological order of events, while the books did not

>>78944114
You are now aware that up until recently before the events of the Hobbit, Gandalf had already been in possession of a ring since the start of the third age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Rings#Narya

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lhHDXimoLc
>the white wizard approaches
What did he mean by this?

>>78945631
Denethor was corrupted. He may not have been a direct servant of Sauron, but Sauron sewed doubt and despair into his mind to make him think the cause was hopeless

>>78947561
only in the end

Why did Gandalf allow himself to be rekted by the Bitch King?

>>78947677
why did boromir allow many arrows to hit him?

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Questions to more informed Tolkeinfags:

Was Aragon ever tempted by The Ring?

Also, under the same conditions and if Aragorn had the same experiences and duration with the ring as Frodo had, do you think he could have resisted it? If he was the one in Mount Doom about to let the ring go, do you think he could have? How does his willpower stat compare to Frodo's?

And finally, if it wouldn't be possible for Aragorn to destroy the ring (along with Frodo who destroyed it accidentally), is there anyone in Middle Earth with a maxed out willpower stat that would be able to resist it?

>>78947851
No one could have destroyed the ring. The whole point was Frodo is saved through providence due to his earlier actions.

>>78947851
Aragorn was never tempted by the ring, I don't believe. During his first encounter with the Hobbits in Bree, Aragorn says they shouldn't fear he'll try to take the Ring by deception because if he really wanted it he could easily take it from them right then and there by force. It seems that some Numenoreans, particularly Aragorn and Faramir, are able to conquer their desire for the Ring.

No one can resist the Ring. Even another Maia, like Gandalf or Saruman, could have taken it from Sauron and became its master, but in the end the Ring is a tool of power and would've corrupted them into being forces of darkness. Aragorn, being a mortal man, stood more of a chance of resisting the Ring's power than most others but still no real chance of mastering it. It would've inevitably destroyed him.

How his willpower compares to Frodo is another matter. One of the reasons Frodo is able to see the quest almost to the end is Hobbits naturally desire peace and quiet, not power. It's hard to say how this natural declination towards power would compare to Aragorn, but I'd say it's likely that Frodo's will to resist the Ring was likely stronger than his. You can see how easily it corrupted Boromir. It's likely that Aragorn could've resisted it for awhile, but probably not nearly as long as Frodo.

No one could destroy the Ring. Not even Frodo could. It literally took an act of God to destroy it (Eru gave Frodo and Gollum a "push" into the Crack of Doom).

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>>78941651
>The Hobbit trilogy is canon to the LOTR trilogy

>>78948148
Could aragon have killed sauron 1v1 if Aragon had the ring?

>>78947525
You retarded nigga?
Everyone knows gandalf has a ring. Elrond, galadriel and Aragorn have rings too.

>>78949530
Aragorn's ring was not a ring of power

>>78949477
No. Tolkien said the only person with a chance 1v1 Sauron was Gandalf, and it would have been a toss up between the Ring belonging to Sauron and Gandalf having actual possession of it over who would win (and if Gandalf mastered the Ring and beat Sauron he'd be just as bad).

>>78949530
Aragorn has a completely powerless ring.

>>78949477
I imagine Aragorn, in that proximity to Sauron while wielding the ring probably would have been twisted into a ring wraith and then forced to hand it over.

Someone like Gandalf though could probably beat/subjugate Sauron with the ring, though with dire consequences.

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>>78948148

Hmm, I see you know your stuff Sir. *tips*

A few more questions if you are still here please.

In your opinion;

Is Lord of the Rings, at least on some level, an allegory of Catholicism? If so, to what extent. And if so, was this Tolkein's intent, or just his subconscious affecting the themes, characters, story?

In addition, to what extent is the "War of the Ring" in J.R.R. Tolkeins The Lord of the Rings™ Trilogy an allegory for past, present, and future conflicts between White Europeans / Christians and Non-white shitskins / Muslims and or Jews?

>>78939357
He's the character you dislike when too young to understand and a character you love when you grow older and start to see.

His intentions were noble, but pride and temptation was his downfall. He was the most human character of the Fellowship (literally).

>>78939804
He really wasn't. The films did him an injustice

>>78950329
Tolkien really really really despised allegory

>>78950329
Tolkien has specifically stated that he dislikes allegory. He was open to people taking whatever interpretations they liked from the story, but didn't like it when people presumed his intentions in writing the story. His quote on the matter:

>I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.

The primary theme of Lord of the Rings is the desire for power. That theme can be applied to a lot of real life issues.

In regards to your second question, not at all.

>>78950329
Tolkien didn't mean it as allegory, but as a real folklore.

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>>78950690
>Tolkien really really really despised allegory

>The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.

>>78950939
He forgot one part though. Denethor talks about heathen kings of old when he burns himself.

>>78950329

Fuck off shitposter he gave a good answer

>>78950984
Well he did say "practically all." Faramir and his Rangers all but say grace too.

>>78950939
Since Tolkien was a devout Catholic, it's only natural that his work would heavily feature a lot of Catholic moral ideas, symbols, and themes. That doesn't mean the story is about Catholicism.

>>78941092
He was less "pure" in blood than Faramir though.
Citation: read a book, Southron.

>>78952747
Citation: your ass.

>>78947851
>is there anyone in Middle Earth with a maxed out willpower stat that would be able to resist it?
Probably Tom Bombadil, but he'd never destroy it.

>>78948148
>(Eru gave Frodo and Gollum a "push" into the Crack of Doom)
If it wasn't for Gollum, Sauron would have won. He trully is the hero we don't deserve.

>>78953636
Tom Bombadil just doesn't give a shit.

>>78947307
>Them in disguises would have been really fun to watch. Do we see an empty Mordor in the extended editions? Cause the whole point of the hobbits sneaking in works cause the orcs send all their men to fight armies.
Holy shit bro, watch the extended editions. ROTK has an entire god-damned HOUR of extra footage. And yes, Sam and Frodo disguise themselves as orcs and sneak across the plains of Mordor.

>>78953636
>probably

Except we have cold hard evidence of him doing exactly that.

>>78947851
>If he was the one in Mount Doom about to let the ring go, do you think he could have?

The whole point is that nobody can.

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He wasnt right in the head