If this movie had been about Christians violently oppressing

its about christians thinking they don't actually need to know a country's language/culture to spread Christianity, buying conversions from warlords in exchange for guns, then acting like the victims when said warlords no longer need their guns and see them as nothing but a crazy deathcult that trades guns for words.

>>78874305
>its about christians thinking they don't actually need to know a country's language/culture to spread Christianity,

What do you mean think? They were successful- there were hundreds of thousands of Christians in Japan before it was made illegal.

>then acting like the victims when said warlords no longer need their guns and see them as nothing but a crazy deathcult that trades guns for words.

Most of those victims were Japanese converts who WANTED priests.

I like how leftists show more empathy to the violent, cruel, repressive Japanese moreso than Christians- even if most of those victims were Japanese themselves.

>>78874305
fuck christians right, they should just convert to islam ffs!

>>78874422
No, they should convert to Buddhism, which is totally NOT a religion because I said so and don't know its history or impact on asian and indian cultures.

>>78874372
negro, the jesuits had warlords forcibly convert their subjects in exchange for guns. Then when the warring lords period ended, the converts were still there.

Not to mention due to the jesuit's lack of fluency in japanese, they weren't spreading christianity as they understood it. The movie goes into what the kirishitans actually believed. Of course neeson's character blames the kirishitans rather than the church for that.

>>78874549
I like how you put shit in Christian while misspelling it, very witty r/atheism

>>78874611
Not him, but thats what the whole movie was about. You should go and see it.

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Is it just me or did the movie give the Japs a pretty fair case for being correct?
Like, the movie sympathizes with Garfield, but the Japs make some good (not bulletproof though) points.

I really liked when Neeson tells Garfield that only Garfield out of all the people there suffering has the pride to compare himself to Jesus.

>>78874611
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCKwtUXyU1k I think he just misspelled
"kirishtians" believe it or not the japanese subtitles in Silence when the nips are talking spell it that way

>>78874549
doesnt really matter to the christians being slaughtered for their beliefs does it?

>>78874611
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirishitan

>>78874549
The movie's not about warlords 100 years prior, it's about Kirishitans WANTING priests and freedom of religion and the government torturing and killing them for it.

>they weren't spreading christianity as they understood it. The movie goes into what the kirishitans actually believed.

That's irrelevant. Sun instead of Son-it's still Christianity. Do you know how mangled the KJV was compared to the original Greek? The point is to have Christ in your heart and be saved, not the externals. Actually, that's what the film is about. Is your heart in the right place?

Charlie says it in the first line of Mean Street - "You don't make up for your sins in church. You do it in the streets, you do it at home. The rest is bullshit and you know it."

I wonder why Scorsese decided to stick to being a lapsed Catholic instead of Protestant? Baptists would welcome him.

>>78874728
Due to how completely the early jesuits fucked up their explanation of the trinity and the bible, they weren't christian. They were something else. The movie correctly states they believed something along the lines of "if I believe the sun only rises every three days I'll go to paladisu"

>>78874667
But that line is more to do with Garfield feeling he has to bear their suffering for them as a Priest. The voice of Jesus telling him it's ok to step on him shows Garfield his spiritual arrogance- he wanted to be like Jesus, but he learns he is as humble and pathetic and any human creature- and that is why Christ came and died for our sins. Because humans are weak and we cause each other to suffer.

I felt that scene with Neeson was influenced by that scene in The Searcheres where Debbie tells John Wayne to go home, she's an Indian now.

>>78874758
>it's about Kirishitans WANTING priests and freedom of religion

The kirishitans wanted to die so they could go to paladisu. The jesuits were able to explain suicide was a sin, though.

That's why the japanese government stopped killing them and the priests outright.

The movie is about the japanese government trying to get the jesuits to understand how severely they fucked up. The actual apostate priests realized this, realized their sins of pride in attempting to spread christianity before learning anything about japanese history, language, or culture. The movie representations are just idiots who never quite grasp they're the ones at fault.

>>78874056
It's about how the formalities of organized religion and us-vs-them victim narratives are not the point of having faith. I can't believe people watched this and walked away thinking it's about how evil the Japanese were to the good Christians.

I have to believe the degenerate agenda when I see this movie not nominated for anything. Despite it being a wankfest, I thought it pretty well made.

>tfw never get the version with DDL and BDT.

>>78874800
They WERE Christian, a minor translation error doesn't negate that. Jesus talked constantly of doing away with the legalistic habits and interpretations of faith and salvation.

Mark 7, nigguh. Jesus said "You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition!" Sad.

He also said "Listen to me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile, but the things that come out are what defile.”

>>78874740
>>78874611
O W N E D

>>78874821
>But that line is more to do with
The second line of of my post was a separate idea from my first.

>>78874945
The error was not minor nor was it singular. The error converted catholicism into a pagan sun-worshiping death cult.

>>78874894
It's about many things.

>>78874888

>The movie is about the japanese government trying to get the jesuits to understand how severely they fucked up.

But torturing and killing people in inhumane and disgusting, shameful ways? They may have claimed to want "understanding" but they wanted COMPLIANCE.

I can't believe how pervasive this white guilt meme has become. It's fucking hegemonic. A movie that demonstrates the narrative is grey, rather than black & white, gets ostracised.

>>78874056
>book written by a japanese
typical racist xenophobic jewllywood, of course they don't nominate a movie based on a chink story

>>78874611
dumbass

>>78874056
>If this movie had been about Jews being Jewy

fixed

>>78875014
>minor

To you.

>>78875026
I think the point people are making is that the priests cannot control what the Japanese government does, but they had decades to realize that their actions were causing all this suffering. Part of the problem is how christianity fetishized martyrdom, but it's another thing entirely to impose that ideology on foreigners with a limited grasp on what they're doing.

On the other hand, that blind and undying faith the Japanese had is so much more powerful than anything the Jesuits had seen, and is maybe closer to Christ that they could know. So it is a very grey film, but the criticisms of colonialism are valid I think

>>78875026
Not everyone that is against Christianity is so from an anti-white, anti-western, and anti-imperial perspective. Japan in particular holds an anomalous position among non-western cultures in the minds of many westerners.

Some of us are aware in the back of our minds what Japan may have turned into if it had been converted to Christianity to the extent that the Philippines was for example. It's actually from the perspective of being AGAINST white guilt that one can celebrate Christianity's, and thus Universalism's, failure in Japan. If it had succeeded, the Japanese may very well be much more self-hating to this day, and may have gone the same route of western cultural oblivion.

>>78874611
hahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahah

>>78874945
Nigger, get off of here. You don't know of what you speak. The jesuits failed to spread Catholicism as we know it and as a result of their arrogance laid waste to thousands of japanese who died for a religion they didn't even understand. Right now you're defending colonialism.

No wonder you end your sentences like Trump ends his tweets.

It's a overall pretty neutral movie for Christians vs Buddhist and you could even argue the guy in the end died a true Christian at heart so whats the beef?

>>78875395
not this

>>78875423
this

>>78875026
>le librul boogeymans

I've ignored it till this point, but its cool how you, personally, seem incapable of discussing anything without putting it into a simple "me vs them" context. The flaws in such simple dichotomies being one of the central points in silence.

The movie cleanly presents the case the jesuits didn't know what they were doing, didn't understand half of what they were telling the kirishitans and the kirishitans didn't really understand what they were being told either. But since japanese culture as it existed set a groundwork for a type of suicide-by-proxy cult, the vague resemblances to christianity let the jesuits think they were successfully converting people. Not to mention the catholics at the time were running off the idea that god personally converted people and all they, as missionaries, needed to do was be there. So the movie explores a situation the missionaries had no inclination to think they were in the wrong, despite all the evidence of every character touches upon, but shies away from, throughout the movie.

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The Abrahamic religions are totally degenerate. The only good thing they've got going for them is Catholic art. Sad!

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>>78874056
If this movie had been about Jews violently oppressing Nazis it would've been marginalised.

But it's about Nazis violently repressing Jews, so it's nominated for every single award. Pathetic.

Not even a weaboo because I despise Japs, but I can somewhat understand their historical apprehension towards Priests. Christian missionaries were at the forefront of Western imperialism in the New World, Africa, and Asia.

Even Chiang Kai-Shek called the US out on this:

>"Japan talks to us in ultimatums ; she says frankly that she wants special privileges extraterritoriality, tariff control in China. We understand that and know how to meet it. The Americans come to us with smiling faces and friendly talk; but in the end your government acts just like the Japanese. And we, disarmed by your fair words, do not know how to meet such insincerity.

>"That is what is behind the anti-Christian movement in China. Your missionaries write 'charity' over their doors, and I do not deny that many of them are good men who do good work ; but in the end they make it easier for American policy to follow that of the other imperialist Powers. So, because we have been deceived by your sympathetic talk, we end by hating you most.

>"Why cannot America act independently? Why does she preach fine sermons, but in the end tag along with the others? Why can she not, like Russia, prove her friendliness by acts?" (Soviet Russia, it will be recalled, won her present influence in China by her sweeping denunciation of all the "unequal treaties.")

>>78875478
One thing I enjoyed about the movie is how it presented valid arguments for both sides. The jesuits were doing a lot of good for the Japanese peasantry and providing a means for them to find fulfillment and hope in their shitty lives, but at the same time, they were agents of cultural imperialism in a land they didn't really understand combined with a genuine god complex in Garfield's character

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>>78874056

>>78875615
I'm surprised Japan didn't just pull a Henry VIII and declare the head of the Japanese branch of Christianity is the Emperor. Because let's be frank, the Thirty Years War would break out sometime after the events in Silence where Catholics and Protestants were slaughtering each other over whose interpretation was valid. So why should Japs bow to some guy in Rome?

>>78875615
>The jesuits were doing a lot of good for the Japanese peasantry and providing a means for them to find fulfillment and hope in their shitty lives,

All the dirt poor peasants understood is if they died believing whatever the jesuits told them, they'd go to paladisu.

The catholics weren't helping people find fulfilment and hope in life, only shilling for death.

>>78875610
I just started reading Silence yesterday, and the academic prologue says the outright ban on Christianity started when a spanish sailor was shipwrecked on Japan, and "bragged" that Spain is so powerful by sending missionaries first to convert the people before sending the army. So the shogun became paranoid and started killing them. If that's true, it's crazy how one humble brag changed the lives of hundreds of thousands and set government policy for centuries.

>>78875571
Inglorious Basterds is about Jews violently oppressing Nazis and it was very popular

FUCK western imperialism! Why can't everyone just be atheist liberals?

>>78875750
fair enough

>>78875670
Atheistic liberalism (gobalism, universalism) is the only surviving Imperial ideology.

>>78875747
>humble brag

What? Also, it's not as if he was wrong.

>>78875747
Not even trying to justify Japan, but can you really blame their apprehension? The Spanish colonized the Philippines, a region that Japanese merchants visited in the past. The Portuguese were doing all sorts of activities in India and SE Asia. The Dutch were hell-bent on acquiring the spices from Indonesia. The English were setting up shop in India which would later to dangerous repercussions later on.

And even when the Portuguese came to Japan, they introduced matchlocks to the Nips. They would later adapt and manufacture firearms to brutally subjugate their own countrymen and later fight Koreans and Chinese.

Before contact with Westerners (Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, English, Russians, and later Americans), the Nips only fought themselves in wars barring those pirates that attacked China or the Mongol invasions. Western contact is what fueled Japan into adopting gunpowder and other facets of modern warfare into becoming imperialistic assholes. The US is even guilty of threatening Japan to open up or else we'll blow your capital to smithereens. Perry wasn't bluffing, he wanted an answer.

Remember this is the same time that the British just BTFO China after peddling opium for decades. And the rest of Asia was being carved up by European colonists. So the Japs imitated what the Westerners were doing; monkey see monkey do.

>>78875817
Dumbest thing I've ever read, and I'm not going to even explain why. Go and sit in the corner until you are ready to be less stupid.

>>78875764
Christianity is from the middle east. It stole the Gods from Europe and Egypt, there's literally nothing wrong with Asians wanting to stop it from happening to them.

>>78874998
>owned

What is this, 2008?

>>78875837
It isn't wrong, but the way it was phrased implied he meant it only to show how significant he was as a Spanish sailor, not to threaten them. Japan just took it as a threat

>>78875874
And the European wars of religion were happening at that time, something the Shogun was apparently very interested in as well. So even if Japan is colonized, it isn't safe from some other European country fighting them for an imposed religious reason

>>78874305

is this b8? there werent any guns in the movie

>>78875882
Universalism is by definition imperialistic. It claims that there is only one legitimate system for the entire planet. It of course makes sense considering Universalism is just secularized Christian metaphysics. It's literally a denomination of Christianity. It's not my fault you're historically illiterate.

>>78874888
>The kirishitans wanted to die so they could go to paladisu.

I never really put these two together. You have a culture which glorifies suicide combined with a religion which's rewards only arrive upon death. Seems like a terrible combination.

>>78875026
To be fair, back then killing people for religious reasons was pretty common. See St. Bartholomew's Day massacre or the 30 years war. Hell, Spaniards didn't convert Mexicans's ancestors with songs and good will

>>78875882
https://nickbsteves.wordpress.com/foundational-readings/americanism-and-the-collapse-of-the-church-in-the-united-states/

http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/06/ultracalvinist-hypothesis-in.html

>>78876034
That's literally Islam. If Japan hadn't stopped them they would have become a middle eastern country.

>>78875570

schoppy is literally the worst popular philosopher, other than neitzche, of the last thousand years

>>78876215
Woman detected :^)

>>78876265

pleb detected

>>78876265
>:^)
genderfluid faggot detected