Language

Bump, please help an anon out.

what language, anon?

effective methods vary wildly depending on the language and the iq of the individual

>>1171276

It depends if you actually want to learn the language, or just know enough to do and say basic things. Either way if you are using Rosetta Stone you will want a complimentary grammar book with exercises.

>>1171299
Mandarin Chinese, though would consider language-learning as an interest overall, so I want to know a little about other techniques.

>>1171312
right, well, a lot of the advice you find is tailored to languages like french or spanish or german, which is filled with cognates and realy doesn't have significant differences in grammar or metaphor compared to chinese

I'd recommend a healthy skepticism of general advice

firstly, you DO need to learn hanzi. this is not negotiable and if anyone says otherwise, turn 720 degrees around and walk away

secondly, it's going to take a long tme, period

thirdly, commercial curriculums are trash and college curriculums are nearly as bad. both of them are made for a population of people with the assumption that they will NEVER be fluent, but that they need to hit certain milestones to pass tests. they progress FAR too slowly to become fluent in any less than 8 or 9 years.

you'll need to discipline yourself SEVERELY and get to work with self study at at least 3x the pace of a college class. if you can't hack that,you'll never become fluent, short of moving to the country.

use a variety of online penpal resources in order to ask questions to people, or ask for people to correct your sentences. bad habits are easy to fall into, and this is one of the worst aspects of shit like rosetta stone.

that covers teh basics. let me know if you have any q's.

>>1171312
I'm also doing Mandarin atm (HSK2). I would recommend you look for a Confucius Institute near you and take courses there. It might be expensive, but it's worth it in my opinion. Secondly, try to get a Chinese friend/coworker/whatever to talk with in order to practice your hanyu. I personally have two people who I can practice with in exchange for Dutch/English oral practice (it helps that I'm in a city wit a lot of students).
Furthermore, what >>1171322 said is pretty accurate. Practice your hanzi (I didn't, and I still regret it), and discipline yourself. I do my best to get 45 minutes to 1 hour of practice everyday, just to make up for my lack of hanzi practice and foolishness in the beginning.

What are some of the most useful languages to learn for travelling?

>>1171312
I also learn it by myself. You should look in to apps as Hello Chinese and Chinese skill. It's very pedagogic and switches between grammar, speaking, hanzi, and word training.
I do these, look up other grammar resources online and try to watch drama series in Chinese (there's plenty that also has Chinese subtitle so then it's much easier to follow what they're saying in Chinese)

>>1171394
What series can you recommend?

>>1171383
english

no one learns a language to travel. it takes too much dedication and any amount you can learn in a few weeks isn't enough to more than get around.

also, with the exception of first world countries, any language you learn won't get you further than 50 miles out of the capital of the country before the dialect changes

>>1171397
any textbooks that jumps straight into using hanzi is sufficient.

finish the first text, then jump straight into a grammar book. I have grammar books I can reccomend for beginners, but I don't have any particular preference for ultra-beginning texts. some are no doubt better htan others, but you shouldn't take longer than a month on the first text anyway, if you have any hope of attaining fluency.

no "series" is going to bring you to fluency. choose a beginners book then shotgun the grammar, just cram it all in.

>>1171383
Spanish, Arabic, Russian

English is my native language. I learned Spanish in high school but forgot most of it. I learned Arabic through online websites and speaking to people on InterPals. I can read and write pretty well but speaking Arabic I suck at. Being a native English speaker sucks when you want to learn other languages. It's so easy to see people learn English as their second language.

>>1171587
I'm currently learning Arabic for work.
Any tips?

>>1171627
I hear allah has a pretty banging full immersion program. If you suicide bomb a kindergarten, you get 72 virgins to teach you full time.

>>1171585
>>1171397 here. I'm already taking classes and studying my 汉子 and 汉语, I just want to get some more input (i.e. Chinese natives speaking to each other) in.

The best for traveling purposes is Pimsleur. I was very hesitant since I saw lots of ads and all the other "patented methods" like Rosetta Stone turned out to be bullshit and a waste of fucking time, but Pimsleur gets you talking immediately and is very focused on getting your speech fluent so that you can ask locals questions.
It's not good for learning reading/writing, however, so if you are serious about language learning it's only one potential tool. But if you're like oh shit I'm going to Sweden in 3 months and don't know any Swedish, it's absolutely perfect.
It's also widely available to torrent.

I use Duolingo for Russian which is fun and free. Then I go on webcam with some qt russian guys and flirt with them in Russian

>>1171276
Music my fellas, music.for me the most useful thing to learn a language is music by far.My mother tongue is Spanish and I've learned English and French mostly by music.
> Rosetta Stone
maybe that is OK if you want to have an idea of the language but you need find someone to talk in the language you are trying to learn or talk to yourself in case you have nobody.

Duolingo has been really helpful for getting a base knowledge.

how do i learn french? how long should it take?

duolingo seems too easy for me. i've done most of the lessons, but i can't start a conversation or understand what people are saying

>>1172902
If you want to practice speaking and listening watch french movies and television shows, including those targeted at young children. Make french friends online and do language exchange, they will slow down for you and repeat themselves.

Also naturally go out and study the grammar methodically and practice it steadily.

>>1172894
This, get a song stuck in your head and it will help a lot

Personally I've found that the best technique for learning a foreign language is the same one used for learning your native language. Listen to the language. A lot. And try to "think" in it whenever possible (like when thinking to yourself just replace random english words with words from that language, even if the result is a freaky word salad)

I've learned english as a kid just by watching a shitload of undubbed american cartoons(east europe, our TV didn't start dubbing foreign shows until like 10 years ago.)

What helped me learn japanese was listening to japanese radio/TV in the background whenever I could, while eating, while working, etc. After 1-2 years of just random listening, without any other exercises, I've realized that the meaning of the words just came to me and filling in the gaps was easy as hell.

>>1173345
>I've learned english as a kid just by watching a shitload of undubbed american cartoons(east europe, our TV didn't start dubbing foreign shows until like 10 years ago.)
God bless Cartoon Network.
Also I doubt radio really works, unless you already have a somewhat decent understanding of the language. TV, sure, but radio gives you zero context of what they're talking about. You can't really guess word meanings without it.

>>1171276
>How does /trv/ learn foreign languages?
Why would I? I already speak English, and so does everybody else on the planet. There's no need to learn a second language if you already speak English.

>>1173368
>stop liking what I don't like
fuck off

>>1173374
Why so hostile? I never told anyone what to like. I don't care if people learn languages. I'm sure it's a fun hobby with lots of nuance and stuff to discover.

It doesn't have a functional purpose, though. At least not for travel. If you plan on permanently moving to a different country it would be disrespectful not to learn the local language, in my opinion.

>>1173377
The experiences I have in Germany/France/Spain as a result of speaking the language are vastly different then countries where I don't speak the language. Many of these experiences plainly wouldn't have occurred if it weren't for knowing basics of the language. You will be amazed how far your accent goes with local girls when speaking and practicing their language. Must be the easiest way to meet girls just by walking up and literally asking them anything in their language. Instant curiosity after hearing your accent and then they also love teaching you more about their language, after sex for example.

>>1173368
there's no need to exercise, or not be an idiot, because a fat retard can stay alive

if you honestly think that suffices for your life, kill yourself

>>1173390
I am not interested in girls either, though. What are some other examples of things that depended on you knowing the local language? I've personally never had problems ordering food or buying tickets for things in English during my travels.

>>1173393
That is not comparable at all. Learning languages is a hobby like juggling or collecting stamps.
Obesity and mental handicaps destroy your quality of life or at the very least cost society a lot of resources.

And sure, you may want a hobby to really get the most out of your life. And if that hobby for you is languages, that's also fine. But there's no need to be judgemental towards everyone who doesn't share your hobby. This is a travel board, after all. Not a language learning board.

>>1173394
I think saying that there's no need to learn a second language in the all encompassing and unilateral tone you did is equivalent to saying

"you don't need to learn finance"
"you don't need to learn to swim"
"you don't need to do math"

I"ve seen these kinds of statements countlessly. If you don't do these things, what DO you do with your time? watch more television?

I'm not even some huge multicult proponent. I'm AGAINST immigration and multiculturalism. but I've very rarely met someone who was monolingual who had the wisdom that accompanied exposure to different perspectives. I'm not even saying WISE people ADOPT other people's viewpoints. I'm just saying that until you try and look at your own culture from the outside, you can't really understand it.

people like you live their lives in boxes and try to drag others down like crabs in a bucket. it's sad.

the saddest part is when people like you claim to have seen and understood everything. jesus.

the west realy is dead. we killed the idea of cultural and spiritual refinement itself.

just sit on the couch and watch youtube while eating hot cheetos. that'll teach you WAY more than a language! everything worth knowing is in english, and everything worth knowing is on youtube!

I passed the b2 exam for German in a year. Native tongue is English and some French.

Two apps I used was Memrise and Anki. I would buy German movies that we're also subtitled in German and I would walk through scenes and translate them. Later I recited a characters line to develop speech patterns. I listened to German music and radio. Memrise taught me vocabulary. I used Anki to make my own flash cards to study.

A huge contributor was playing video games like Ark Survival Evolved with native speakers. Luckily Germans have a willingness to tell you that you sound like an idiot and some helped me to speak more clearly.

Ultimately you won't be able to learn a foreign language unless you actually want to learn. This is why kids can do 4 years of a foreign language and not learn shit

>>1173404
this is exactly the sort of advice that works of indoeuro languages and absolutely nothing else

not bad advice, but it comes with a heavy warning

Duolingo is my go-to

I used it for German and in less than 3 months I managed to have simple convos

>>1173405
>>1173405

That is true.

I lived in China for 3 years... I half assed studied Chinese for 6 years. My native tongue is completely unaffiliated with Chinese so I don't believe anything I mentioned above would have really worked in regards to learning Chinese.

I only ever came across 1 person that spoke Chinese near fluency which was a guy named Jared Psigoda and that guy has a high IQ, has lived in China for almost a decade, and spent most of his time in high school and university learning Chinese.

>>1173414
Something that most people are in denial about is the fact that after age 7 IQ is the single most important factor in training language learners

I hate to break it to most people, but if your iq isn't significantly above average, you will NOT become fluent

the proof is in the pudding. the military, when selecting candidates for their language training programs, subjects candidates to an IQ battery, and only the best go on to engage in the programs, and MOST OF THOSE PEOPLE fail to complete the program, and the military has such a large shortage of skilled translators that they contract most of the necessary work

IQ people. IQ.

this sounds like a mean post, but I just want peple to think about it a little.

>>1173394
Well I am having difficulty understanding how you are unable to see the usefulness and postive relationship between travelling and learning language. In Central American countries you become a much greater target without spanish. North and West Africa without french is more dangerous. If you speak English and you cant even bother to learn the basics of another latin language while travelling I think it just reflects laziness and entitlements.

>>1173427
Also reflects stupidity of course

>>1171276
I used to use Livemocha
> Fuck, Rosetta Stone just bought it. It was kinda good.

Depends on the language, but if I really wanted to learn a language, I :
* would study on Livemocha or Duolingo at least 45h a day
* get a textbook to read, force myself at least 30 min a day
* find people on couchsurfing meet up speaking the language I want to chat from time to time.
* make Anki cards (real good for Chinese).

But really, for any language, you need to speak as much as you can. I need to to read to have the text version of words to imprint the sounds in my mind (if that makes sense), but they key is clearly to get off the textbooks and speak to a live person.

As with anything, there is no shortcut, it takes time.

OR

> move to the countryside where you have no choice but to speak the desired language.

>>1173462
>45h a day
I meant 45 minutes, obviously.

> that dedication

>>1173345
does this really work?

if i know absolutely nothing of japanese, if i listen to it, i'll understand it if i try? you did nothing to study grammar or anything?

>>1173494
No, you will need to do real studying. I met plenty of people living in Japan that had been there 5-10 years that could only order a beer and tell a girl shes cute. They were all lazy fuck ups but Japanese is not an easy language at all.

But immersing yourself in the language is the fastest way to retain everything you study and slowly you'll pick up new things from hearing and reading it constantly.

Slowly the amount you learn from osmosis will increase until you're better than conversational, but you'll never actually be fluent unless you study the kinds of things that aren't in daily conversation as well.

>>1173494
Another good thing in that line of thinking is putting stickers on every item in your house with its translation. You force your brain to switch to the language you want and you have a daily influx you can't really escape. It's stupid but it works.

However, both these things can just kickstart the learning process. It eases you into learning the language but as any thing, you need to study it. Japanese especially since it has all its weirdo rules.

But clearly, you have to be well-rounded. Studying without watching movies/listening to radio/using the words in your daily lives won't work. Just having some Japanese words in the background without studying won't work either.

I sure wished listening to Japanese only would have taught me the language. My teenage years watching an ungodly amount of shitty anime would have been put to good use if it was true.

Once you get to good conversational level, you'll just have to read, watch loads of movies and cartoons and you're pretty much set for a good level at this point, which is a lot easier/smoother. But it takes years, hard work and dedication to get this point.

Don't give up though, it's rewarding.

>>1173396
Finance, math and swimming are all things that you need in your daily life to a certain extent. The same can't be said for languages that aren't English.

> If you don't do these things, what DO you do with your time?
Is it hard for you to imagine someone filling their spare time with anything other than those four things?
I work out, I recently assembled a drone that I'm attempting to learn to fly, I'm in the process of getting my motorcycle license, I go hiking in nearby mountains in the summer and I go snowboarding in the winter. I also hang out with friends and occasionally I travel. And yes, I'm also a huge fan of movies.

Not everyone has the same interests. I'm fine with that, but obviously you are not.

>people like you live their lives in boxes and try to drag others down like crabs in a bucket. it's sad.
>the saddest part is when people like you claim to have seen and understood everything. jesus.

I feel like you're making a lot of assumptions here. I'm not trying to drag anyone down. I've been saying that languages are a nice hobby in pretty much all my comments here.

>>1173427
Those are not places I'd like to visit, though.

> another latin language
What does "latin" mean? Are you implying that English is a Romance language?

>>1173494
this has been answered 5 times already in the thread. no it doesn't work, you fucking idiot. if you can't read a 30 post thread, you're probably not smart enough to learn japanese

>>1173501
In my field, which is a non science branch of STEM, you more or less cannot get by with only english. that's just a fact.

you're massively simplifying the picture.

I've been a little aggressive, but you're honestly being way too absolute. I also NEVER said you NEED to learn a language, but you saying, with 100% certainty, that one DOESN'T need to learn one, is a very absolute statement.

you compared languages to stamp collecting. that's stupid. languages is a step or two below finance or swimming, but I'd say there are very few things above a language besides career skills or life saving skills in terms of importance.

living without knowing a second language is like intentionally self-castrating yourself mentally. most normal people simply don't have the mindset, time, or raw IQ in order to self-provide all of the benefits that come with an extra language. it's simply not commonly possible.

>>1173501
a good example in brief is that it's usually pretty easy to immediately tell from a conversation if a person has ever left the country or not. something like that would't be immediately apparent if it didn't leave a lasting mark. but it DOES.

another one is that our education system is extremely inadequate. people learn more composition in foreign language classes becuase they learn zero in english classes. you can see this in writing. there's a reason chinese immigrants can compose written english better than american natives.

once more, I'm not arguing that these things can only come from language study. but they're so uncommon without it in reality that when you deny these things, people get a little incredulous at you, and just a tad exasperated

believe it or not, a lot of people these days are saying you don't need to exercise, too.

>>1173521
> stem
How Do they teach you to recognize only black and white?

>>1173521
And how could I forget to mention "raw iq"...Anon, tipping my fedora sincerely

>>1173538
the other dude is saying no one needs to learn another language. that's a lot more black and white.

>>1173539
ah yes, the old "my brain works via magic" argument. gotcha

>>1173544
Magic? I didn't say that. I only mentioned iq as a shitty metric for your brain capacity. In my opinion, making assumptions based on nothing, like you did in your previous post, says much more about the person than his iq

>>1173551
IQ is the single best measurement for neurological capacity.

The thing is, what I'm saying is that language training is one of the BEST ways to BYPASS IQ requirements for learning certain things. I was SPECIFICALLY GIVING YOU AN EXAMPLE OF A CIRCUMSTANCE IN WHICH IQ IS LESS IMPORTANT THAN TRAINING. I WAS EMPHASIZING TRAINING, YOU DICKHEAD.

But an idiot like you, when I give a situation in which iq is less important, you attack me for supporting IQ, even theoretically.

Why don't you go die?

>>1173521
>all this autism in one post

>>1173551
>>1173560
Fuck me, calm down you autists there isn't anything to argue here. Yes having ability in more than one language is beneficial beyond just trivial knowledge. No the benefits aren't always worth the effort required, that depends on individual circumstances.

>>1173563
the post that triggered all the autism didn't say it wasn't ALWAYS worth the effort. the post said "no need," which is just as stupid. or more so.

almost every country on the planet teaches, successfully, two languages in their schools, successfully, as part of a well balanced education. language is JUST AS important as history or literature, neither of which are "essential" either, but I'll punch you in the mouth if you suggest we shouldn't make it standard curriculum.

I just see lots of idiots in this thread making excuses for themselves.

can a janitor delete this thread already

File: image.jpg (260KB, 502x600px) Image search: [Google]

260KB, 502x600px

>>1173560
>>1173573
Oh my. Alright, alright, we got you. You are right and there are lots of idiots around, myself included. Hopefully someday we'll be able to get a stem degree, right now you're way out of this league. I mean, you're even replying to your own posts in capital letters, now that's something I can never handle.

>>1173576
>education is stupid and pointless
it's one thing to criticize the existing system, but to unilaterally say that people don't need to self improve or seek to learn valuable skills, man, that's fucking hard to NOT top

I'm sure people with actual mental disabilities outclass you on several fronts

>>1173573
Yes that's my point, the claim that learning a language is a trivial stamp collecting-tier hobby is such an obvious bait that you don't need walls of text trying to argue otherwise.

>>1173494
I did study, after those two years. But it was easy as hell, basically like learning how to write all over again in kindergarten. Because the words themselves were ingrained in my mind, and the context of their usage.

Of course I still picked up the meaning of a shitload of words by myself, generally basic/simple stuff like hot, cold, pain, congratulations, man, woman, etc.

I was also a passive learner, who didn't make an active effort to learn until 2 years after, I'm sure if you study _while_ routinely listening to radio/watching TV you'll learn even faster.

File: 70dab25a-f4fb-41d5-8754-809420af9710.jpg (228KB, 2048x3150px) Image search: [Google]

228KB, 2048x3150px

>>1173521
Let me tell you how it is in my country, then. It is pretty much a requirement to speak English, regardless of what you want to do with your life.

University textbooks are almost exclusively in English, as are a lot of the lectures. Most employers require you to be proficient in English, too. And because most of the available media is in English, you won't just miss higher education and employment, but also entertainment, if you don't speak English.

Even my 80 year old grandmother was fluent in English.

Now, some employers may say that they'd like you to speak a third language (pic related), but in practice it ranks very low on the list of desirable qualifications. Time spent learning a language would be a lot better spent volunteering or interning somewhere.

I have a C2 certificate in German from the Goethe institute, but nobody really cares. And I am completely willing to admit that.

I also didn't say that nobody ever needs to learn a language. If you don't speak English, you obviously need to learn it as soon as possible. And if you plan to work in tourism or trade or espionage or the UN or something, you may want to learn an additional language. But for the vast majority off people it is objectively quite useless.

>>1174126
*of people, jesus

>>1171312
college

File: 1473927829410.png (946KB, 1400x5552px) Image search: [Google]

946KB, 1400x5552px

>>1171312
for what purpose? Unless you're going into foreign service or espionage there is literally no reason to learn it. Learn Russian instead.

In my experience Rosetta Stone sucks. Pimsleur is where it's at. After 90 lessons (1 a day for 3 months) you'll basically be intermediate and can teach yourself after that. You can also plow through it in a month or so if you have a lot of free time. I did that for Portuguese and speak it fluently now. Do it!

>>1174126
your country has like, 4 million people

it's VERY different other places in the world. we have cities larger than your country

>>1174534
5 million, actually. But that's irrelevant. The point is just that English is the only language you really need. That goes for the US, that goes for Norway, that goes for pretty much every developed country.

>>1172894
rec some spanish music

i like spanish rap a lot, Gasolina is a great song. I used to work in a restaurant staffed almost exclusively by salvadorians, they were are really cool and played spanish rap and dance music all day

File: 1470904021328.png (3MB, 1280x949px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1280x949px

I really want to learn Russian. Rosetta Stone is $200 for levels 1, 2, and 3 at B&N. I don't care about spending that much money to learn Russian, I just want it to be worth the cash.

>>1174760
You're far better off getting your ass in a classroom.

Something that all the NEETs ITT don't seem to realize is that language is ultimately about communicating between humans. You'll only ever get so far with computer programs, and dogshit like Rosetta Stone is the worst of them. At least find Michel Thomas audio sets, he's way better than fucking Rosetta Stone garbage.

But if you really want to learn, without being in the country immersed every day, you need to have a teacher who can explain shit, and being in a class surrounded by other people also learning to speak the language is invaluable for cognitive development.

>>1174733
>Gasolina is a great song.
Jesus fuck no, maybe the first 100 times it was played. It's generally called 'reggaeton', not 'Spanish rap'. It all sounds like shit after a while. Reggaeton is based on a very repetitive background beat

>>1171312
I've been learning Mandarin in Taiwan for the last two years, all in an intensive, 5 day a week program. I'm naturally strong with language and Mandarin isn't the first language I've studied seriously. I also study hard and practice outside of class with Taiwanese friends. I've put in about in well over 1,000 hours in the classroom alone and I currently hover right around a B2 level based on the tests here. After all that, I can converse well enough, but I still can't make sense of most conversations between two native speakers. In short, prepare to get asswrecked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages

>>1171276
I've been using the /int/ sticky using free textbooks, free audio lessons, free apps like Memrise, and flash card programs like Anki for a year.

Whatever you choose to do, my only advice to you is to practice one hour every day. If you only practice once a week or once a month, you'll never make progress.

File: top kekk.jpg (9KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 480x360px

>>1171647

>>1174957
There is really good reggaeton out there. Gasolina just happens to be a shit example

I don't.

By the good grace of God I was born English and can therefore never be foreign.

>>1171276
Why the fuck is the rosetta stone meme still alive?

Try assimil or linguaphone (similar method, but assimil is more pratical since everything is included in one book while a single linguaphone course has like a thousand books) and always read reviews of the language course you want to take, for example, people love the Russian courses of assimil but not so much the Japanese ones.

>>1175127
Execute all monolinguals

>>1174760
Rossetta Stone does not teach Russian good, try taking a class on it, getting yourself some textbooks, speaking to natives ect.