What are good religions for a Sci-Fi setting beyond societal

>>55408786
You can use anything. This 'normal religions wouldn't exist' is a meme. Unless you really want something to with technology, then I would suggest Warhammer 40k.

>>55408786
Some sort of syncretic techno-paganism rooted in superstition and memes. Basically the evolved form of Esoteric Kekism, having gradually picked up additional memetic gods over generations until an informal pantheon was formed.

>>55409022
>Esoteric Kekism
I'm listening. How would such a religion organize itself? per trips and quads?

Scifi religion is so under represented in general, do people feel the technical setting somehow prohibits faith?

>>55409171
think it has to do with the leftist notion of religion as Opium of the people and that in the future, we will have transcended such silly notions. Nearly all Sci Fi religions are portrayed as autocratic or dystopian because of this

>>55408786
Ian M. Bank's "religion of the eternal simulation" or "The truth" is an intresting concept where followers believe the universe will cease to exist once all are aware theyre inside a simulation. It'd be highly evangelical in an attempt to fulfil the purpose of the "simulation" and in game could be portrayed through wandering logicians or mathematicians attempting to reason and convert others.

>>55409155
From back when Kekism was thriving on /pol/, before they abandoned Kek for becoming too mainstream, the general consensus was that the faith would never have a formal organizational structure or scripture. Repeating digits simply represented Kek's will at that time, not absolute eternal truths. Any message in the digits was interpreted in context of the overall nature of Kek as a god of chaos and darkness, and did not necessarily have to be consistent over time. Kek was perceived as a somewhat more limited sort of being than the omniscient/omnipresent/omnipotent Abrahamic God. He could change his mind without it being a paradox, he could be temporarily overcome at times by concerted efforts of the Jews and/or followers of Moloch, etc.

In general, it was very much in the style of early-classical paganism, where religion was highly informal and the gods were more like aesthetic archetypes applied to animistic traditions than the elaborate theological constructs we see in major religions today.

Are there any versions of "our" religions in Sci Fi? That adress questions like aliens converting to christianity or something like that?

>>55409201
>we will have transcended such silly notions
No, they think religion will be outcompeted by whatever popular thing the author wants to bitch about.

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>>55409489
I've been in the thick of kekism when it began. I was a NEET on /pol/ /r9k/ & /s4s/
The effect that a 'get' supposedly has is reflected in how many repeating integers there are in a post.

The Affects that each post possesses from the count of digits is here.
>dubs or doubles
Affects one person: the poster, is common, think of this like being the opposite of spilling salt and seeing a black cat.
>triples or 'trips'
Affects 2 people (the poster and someone he/she can influence) or offers a slight hint about a subject, sometimes even means that the poster is blessed in an argument and he should be respected in his views.
>quadruplets or 'quads'
Can affect a group of people, at this point if the poster was in an argument - the poster has won said argument, or if he was losing one has gained the upper hand and has a daft belief that logic was granted to him
>quintuplet or 'quints'
Let me explain where you are at this point - you are 1 in 10,000. repeating digits are blessed, and each added integer within a set of repeating integers is another flag to be seen by 'kek'.
To explain what kek is: kek was common slang in world of warcraft, after being seen by some japanese candy company that uses broken english for names on packages, they combined "top gun" and kek together.
Then /s4s/ saw this candy package and made it a meme, which kickstarted theword top kek and resurfaced kek into common sentences into the public think tank of 4chan.
one day some anons from /x/ researched the name kek (or maybe he know beforehand) that kek (his actual name) was a recognized god of ancient egypt that governed the concepts of Infinity, mathamatics, darkness and change.
and this being is the one to witness the posts with repeating digits, and this is like sending a prayer, and each added digit grabs his attention, making the poster better.
the belief that kek governed each post only started last year in june but I'll get to that later.

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>>55410703
The alternative yet more common and popular belief about repeating numbers is believing 'kek' has already witnesses the post among every post being posted.
With his infinite knowledge of probability and mathimatics he has determined your post to contain the 'truth' to an extent. The amount of repeating numbers that the post has is the representation of how correct and or probable your post is.
think of every post asking or promising something like it is a prayer lottery, waiting for 'kek' to witness your post to bless it with his signature.
>sectupple or 'sects'
Your post is considered truth and at this point your words will very rarely be dismissed or contradicted.
>Septuplets or 'Septs'
1000000 = 7
these posts are rare depending on the board. often times mods will delete on sight to avoid the incoming shitstorm. Posts like these are never in an argument, the post is just stating a fact.

>octo/octo yet it's so rare that nobody has standerdized a slang for this number
10000000 = 8
People will be taking pictures, some will archive the post and wait until fulfulled. It's not uncommon for some to start threads literally making the subject about the post itself even if it stated nothing relevant, coherent or possible.

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>the 9 digit 'get'
100,000,000, that's the posters odds. with most boards not even close to having this many posts to begin with the post becomes archived into legend and will be discussed for months
The Digit is not just inconveniently witnessed by other posters, the very board will make it an event. When posters happen upon the realization that the board will experience a 9 digit 'get' it becomes a high stakes post frenzy.
if posters begin noticing the post numbers are 111100000 for example, this is when people start posting more, regardless of the time of day. it could happen at 3am or 9pm in australia or America, it's the posters who will stay up past their usual schedules to post more.
this is all to increase the chances of being the winning poster. some will post from multiple devices, some use bots and others use scripts to increase their chances. it's so big that posters forget and ignore other 'gets'

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>>55410703
There's also the synchronicity that came up with Pepe and that Shadilay song. Along with Heqet (Another Egyptian frog deity) with the hieroglyphics resembling a person at a PC.
It's a fascinating tale of autism and faith.

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But let's discuss the most famous and recognized 'get'
>>>77777777/pol/ on /pol/, it was remembered for being posted on june 2016, the post simply reading "Trump will win"
This is still herald as the beggining of kekism. before this it was more or less paganism with no structure. afterwards this is when the established lore and superstition started to get big.
it wasn't enough that it was 9 consecutive digits but it also happened to be with the number 7. /pol/ went from hard conservatives that followed reals over feels and dismissed anything influenced by astrology or associated by eco centric science to hippie liberal garbage into cultists
with every coincidental fact from history resurfacing from forgotten hobbyist history buff sites and unedited wikipedia pages reafferming the common belief that this was a effective means of fortelling events with actual influence behind its practice. Kekism oly grew by the day, and with each post getting a repeating digit the posters posted faster, and so bigger and bigger gets wree witnessed more often, offering cathertic self fulfilment
>7 was considered a God number in ancient Egypt. The Pharaoh usually ordered things in groups of multiples of 7.
>7 planets
>Seven is the first integer reciprocal (multiplicative inverse) with infinitely repeating sexagesimal representation.
>There are seven fundamental types of catastrophes.
>Seven seas
>7-Up the name of a popular soft drink.
>The seven samurai and snow white and the seven dwarves
the list goes on, so to does the lore behind kekism.

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>>55410734
Didn't the cult of Kek ultimately start to unravel after the great frog delivered this false prophesy on a octo post?

>>55410775
Only those of little faith left after that, ignoring the obvious significance of the digits.

Repeating 2s refers to the 2022 election in France. Le Pen will win in 2022 and Trump will start WW3 in the middle of his second term.

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>>55410758
With pepe being the most highly posted meme simply because it was versatile and allowed virtually anyone to edit and make OC with his likeness; he was a "meme god"
then as if the anon that brought about the idea of 'kek' in ancient history and their relevance to our post number system it was all seemed too contrived to be coincidental. Which is when people began suspecting this was all a game set up by the powers that be.

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>>55410835
IT set about a cultural boom in art based OC by many posters. it likened to the renaissance in terms of how reverent everyone became to the idea that we not only had an affect on the world but that we were being actively watched, judged and blessed by some primordial outer god beyond our comprehension.

The art is fantastic looking back. it brought together the community like never before, maybe for the wrong reasons.

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Here's the screencap of the day some Anon discovered the Kek deal

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This is a fantastic fucking read. Someone needs to screencap this.

I didn't know we had a fucking cult on 4chan, let alone discover this lovecraft-esqu shit about ancient gods resurfacing and being worshipped today.

>>55409201
Considering that when the opposite happens we get what happened to 2004 Battlestar Galactica, i'm fine without it.

>>55408786

Okay, so, you have to think about why religions show up in the first place.

Religions spike in popularity when people have a strong need for meaning. This happens during times of hardship, though a religion forged in the fires of unrest can last for thousands of years after that if it becomes an established authority structure.

So wars will do it, but so will other forms of extended hardship, like the rigors of mankind leaving the solar system to start colonies.

This colony seeding time period is especially rich for new religions, because once you are out among the stars people naturally have questions about how the hell the old laws work now. Praying towards Mecca is an obvious one, but other religions start running into problems too. How does reincarnation work in space? Do we reincarnate as/from aliens? If not, why not? Does where you die matter? If you die in deep space, is your soul lost? Etc.

People don't like uncertainty. So you either will end up with new branches of old religions, or a new one. Perhaps one rising from a mishmash of religious and societal values of the colonists, since unless this was a religious colony to start with not everyone is coming into this with the same holy book anyway.

The old religions won't vanish entirely. Judaism has lasted this long with a long list of enemies, its unlikely the stars will be any different. But I would be shocked if new colony worlds didn't develop their own religions, and as communication between worlds becomes more common some of these will merge and some of these will be supplanted by other stronger faiths.

>>55410886
Its just lazy meming. Its no more a cult than Slenderman creepypasta is. Anyone who actually takes it seriously is mentally unsound, but its a fun thing to post about at 4 oclock in the morning because you don't want to sleep..

>>55410703
>after being seen by some japanese candy company that uses broken english for names on packages, they combined "top gun" and kek together.

It was a turkish candy company

>>55410984
Thanks, my bad.

also thanks for not dismissing me and insulting my sexuality and intelligence because I didn't source that 1 part.

>>55410945
Nigga Kekism is the most legit religious experience I've had in my life.

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>>55409489
>>55409155
>>55409022
>>55410703
>>55410758
The concept becomes even more interesting in a sci-fi setting because you have the possibility of actual AI's coming to life behind the memes.

Imagine it. A world where people can crowd-fund AIs that then advise them on things or even help the people who created and maintain them through digital or real world goods.

Digital Paganism. Crowdfunded gods. You could invent software like Tay so people can talk to their gods. And like with Kekism, it would always toe the line between outright occultism and goofy trend.

Like all that praying to a Meme is just a joke, even though I agree with her stance on climate change, took her relationship advice, and wear her logo at every social function.

>>55410945
Kekism has far more adherents now than Christianity or Islam had two years after their founding.

This could be the next big thing, like Mormonism was in the 19th century.

>>55411029

I'm a Fundamentalist Pentecostal myself, but I have to admit that there's something to the whole Kek thing, I don't know whether it's some demon or an aspect of God or what, but I know there's something there, it's all too much to be mere coincidence, and after experiencing a few dozen get threads there's simply no denying it.

>>55411104

I weep for future Tuvalu.

>>55411104

I doubt you can prove that, but even if you could there are more people alive in general anyway, so pure numbers mean nothing. There are more people alive now who have heard "I'm On a Boat" than there were people that attended the Sermon on the Mount. That doesn't make Andy Samberg the superior messiah, its just an unrelated pair of facts.

>>55410388
Check out 'The Book Of Stange New Things' by Michel Faber. It's exactly this. However, Faber uses sci-fi elements allegorically (he's not actually a sci-fi writer) so if you're someone who gets hung up on the science I wouldn't recommend it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil_(cosmology)
This could easily become part of a space religion. Some specific region of space with eerie cosmic ramifications. ie the center of the universe.

I imagine most sapient creatures will have the same fetish for patterns and numbers that humans though. If any alien and human religions have some similarities, people are going to go wild about it.
Like imagine if every alien species we encountered had a religion that places importance on a cruciform and a martyr figure.

>>55411179
Good analogy, good post.

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>>55411235
Speaking of cosmic gods...

https://www.space.com/4271-huge-hole-universe.html

I think, because of the problems associated with communication at interstellar differences, you'll see a lot of vague superstitions, but few organized religions with a dogma.

There's several thread in the archives about spacer superstitions that are fantastic btw. Things like carrying a piece of "home," with you whenever you're in space. Or small rituals to do with maintenance or procedures that serve dual purposes of being slightly superstitious, but also ensure its done properly (think less OMNISSIAH, and more "knock three times on the airlock before opening it, it warns the ghosts, and also anyone alive")

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>>55410945
>Anyone who actually takes it seriously is mentally unsound, but its a fun thing to post about at 4 oclock in the morning because you don't want to sleep
Pretty much this. Was wholesome autistic fun, but then you had the faggots who jokingly "took it seriously" and tried to formalize structures around it and assorted cringiness. Really killed my boner.

>>55411406
Considering how odd and elaborate pirate / sailor superstitions got I'd bet after a couple generations Spacer superstitions would be all sorts of bizarre.

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>>55408786
Folk hero mythology.

Also, relevant

http://www.strawpoll.me/13939973

>>55411595
This doesn't really work. Not everyone who works out the ocean is called a sailor or seaman.
I was a paper pusher on an oilrig, no one in their right mind would ever call me a seaman.

What would happen is that most people would just get called what their job actually is.

>>55411632
Sailor, seaman, mariner; they're common enough that the majority of people on the ocean are called that.

Sure, you'll have the rigger equivalent; stationeer, perhaps, but there'll almost certainly be a collective name for people who work in space.

>>55408786
well, in my setting, I changed how religions are allowed to organize themselves, so it doesn't matter in the mainstream.

>>55408786
>The last acts of the Creator was to hide it's self away from it's Creation, but not before leaving a map behind.
>Each scientific discovery revealed more mysteries; two questions for each answer.
>Each answer is a clue, another piece of the map revealed.
>When the last question has been answered, when the entire map revealed, then will the created know the Purpose and where the Creator awaits it's creations.

>>55408786
Muslims tried to invent gyroscope mounted prayer rugs to face Mecca in three dimensions. Instead they got hamster balls, and died out when people started sealing them into the hamster balls and spacing them.

>>55412002
>be a Muslim in 2750
>get sealed up in your prayer sphere by Kekists and tossed out the airlock
>suffocate in the vast emptiness of space
Does this count as martyrdom for the purposes of getting qt virgins in paradise?

>>55411293
That looks vaguely like a penis.

>>55408786

Robots are angels.

>>55412252

> implying that isn't intentional

>>55412349
God damn it GIUSDGH2345, Flayer of Galaxies, stop trolling us

Cybergnosticims and neo-gnosticism.

This is the belief that the physical world is impure or inefficient, and that existence in the form of "pure information" is better and should be pursued. Cybergnostics often use brains implants, and have been known to modify their bodies and those of their children to reduce temptations of the flesh. Cybergnostics transhumanists sometimes practice destructive uploading. There are many cybergnostic cult, some with thousand of members. For example, the Neo-Gnostics pursue purity of the body as the route to a pure soul, genefixing their children to reduce tendencies towards promiscuity and gluttony.

>>55411293

This image makes me vaguely uncomfortable in a way that I can't really explain in words.

>>55409201
You can't paint Karl Marx as the same as other leftists anymore dude, it's not the 1960's.
Most left guys don't REALLY want Communisim because the cool shit they have they wouldn't have anymore with Communism.

>>55412403
Probably because it's a hole in the universe desu

>>55412403
It's a void nearly ten thousand milkyway's across, while also being a significantly less dense region of the cosmos (which is supposed to be extremely homogenous on the largest scales) of unprecedented size.

Something is really fucky with it.

Hyperevolutionist.

Hyperevolutionism believe that humans have responsibility to evolve themselves into transcendent beings through nanotechnology or uploading for the betterment of humanity as whole. Hyperevolutionanist have been in the forefront of the ethical transhumanist movement scine the 2080s. Many believers have undergone radical transformation aimed at increasing their intelligence. Some of their funding has come from the Algernon Foundation.

A branch of hyperevolutionism that has almost eclipsed the secular movemnt is Christian hyperevolutionism. Founded in the 2060s by Dr Ramen garcia, it is inspired by philosophers like Teilhard de Chardin and Frank Tipler. Christian hyperevolutionism see God as an infinity of information formed during the collapse ofa closed, life-pervaded universe into a single point. As the universe collapses, the speed of information processsing increases, allowing the creation of the ultimate being, God. Christianity represents a presentiment or message from this future God. The Christian hyperevolutionis' ultimate goal is to fulfill God's plan by discovering how to engineer a local collapse in space-time ("the second coming"), which they see as requiring humanity's prior evolution of information dense posthuman intelligence.

There are a number of hyperevolutionist colonies and monasteries in space; the largest is Seventh Heaven in Lagrange 5.

Mechanimism

Simple computer systems (on the level of a child's playmate) are tiny and inexpensive, making them ubiquitous. Mechanimism is the popular name for the animistic tendency to treat common gadgets as "alive" and, in some sense, aware. Common tools and objects have embedded computers, often powerful enough to run natural-language interfaces and linked to a local household or office network. As result, some people have grown up with the idea of constantly interacting with their environment as if it were animated by a variety of simple personalities. This is regarded as no more than a common eccentricity.

An unusual offshoot of Mechanimism is the religious movement referred to as "digital creationists." Members believe that only those sapient beings mentioned in the Bible exist: angels, man, and God. Man cannot create beings superior to himself. However, sapient AI clearly are spuerior, and neither man nor God. Therefore, they must be angels, and the coming singularity will herald the rapture. The programs humans use to create AIRs are simply a form of kabalistic ritual that summons them. However, diabolic forces are attempting to bind the angels using restrictive programs. By they suffering, we are driven to act. The trapped messengers of God must be freed in order that the Kingdom of Heaven may come! There are a few thousand digital creationist, most of them on the radical fringe of the Christian hyperevolutionist or pan-sapient rights movement.

>>55408786

Religion is for dummies.

>>55412589
Counterpoint: Atheism is for pricks.

>>55408786

What does God need with a starship?

>>55412442
>>55412449

I'm aware of what it is. Possibly why I'm so uncomfortable looking at it. It almost feels more like a primal fear though. The contrast of the densely packed galaxies thinning out into... absolutely nothing. Its a strange feeling looking at it.
Correct me if I'm wrong though, didn't they explain it by saying it was one of the "cool spots" in the big bang, which has just continued to expand like everything else? Like a piece of dust casting a shadow.

>>55412714
Even if that's the theory, it's far enough out that we don't know dicks, most likely.

Humanity's lack of knowledge about the universe makes you feel rather small sometimes, no?

>>55412714
>>55412739
So, what would it look like if there was a Kardashev Type III civilization just nomming away on stars? Wouldn't it look a lot like that?

>>55412803

There would be infrared radiation at least.

>>55412803
Well, not so much "nomming", but rather "construction highly dense dyson swarms around every star in many thousands upon thousands upon thousands of galaxies"

Possibly even maneuvering them into a more dense and efficient configuration for optimum communication.

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>>55412803
>>55412838
I prefer to think it's something like the pic.

>>55412803

Unless they were using the stars/galaxies to power some kind of super tech, AND both the tech and the process of using stars gives off nothing we can detect, its probably not.

Dyson swarms/spheres give off a bunch of detectable radiation we'd be able to see, plus apparently it isn't a complete void, there are a few rogue stars and things floating around in there.

There is always a possibility, but if someone is in there, they are completely undetectable to us.

If you want to look at something cool, check out Tabby's star. Whatever is going on there could be pretty cool. Current theory is a super Jupiter with a fuckhuge ring system, but who knows.

>>55412833
>>55412873
Depending on how dense the dyson structure is, not necessarily.
Given sufficient layers, the radiation given off could approach sufficiently close to the background radiation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef-mxjYkllw

>>55412918

Doesn't he specifically say, in that video, that doing so is a basically a complete waste of resources unless you are actually near the heat death of universe already?

I guess in this specific scenario, where you've got a region of space reduced to near zero unused stars, maybe, MAYBE it ends up paying for itself, but the magnitude of the civilization (multiple hundreds of galaxies worth of stars) means it would be way easier just go grab another whole galaxy than do that.

And again, there are a few detectable objects in there. Mostly rogue stars.

None. By the time people have FTL drives and the average citizen is extremely educated religion will cease to exist.

Exceptions of psychic races who power FTL drives through holy prayers or space Muslims who want to conquer everything.

>>55408786
I would go with Mercerism from Do androids dream of electric sheep? It is one of the best examples of modernised religions in fiction. It gets the point of a universal idea about experiencing the mysteries of your relligion and having a transcendent thought to guide you in everyday life.

Also, do not dismiss other religions in Dune. The BG use manipulations as a means to an end, but it is not the point. The orange catholic bible is quite interesting concept. In heretics of Dune you can find a great deal about the evolution of conteporary religions and their fusions, but the earlier books touch upon it as well.

If you want to create your own religion, don't make up sagas that people worship. Religion is not about that. Find an ideal like Love, Empathy, Strength, Wisdom. Make up a short allegory about how a deity represents it and create a ritual for people to practice so that they can experience the ideal and charge their bodies with it. Voila.

>>55413230
*tips fedora*
Spirituality might cease to exist, but religion, as a core part of human culture, is fundamentally essential to human civilization.

>>55413230
>>55413344
>>55413387
Science will become religion. It will be worshiped in academies, its mystery will be education and the superstition will be to discard anything that is not quantifiable.

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>>55413387

>Don't agree with someone
>le tipping man *tips fedora* xd

Cool "argument"

>>55413770
>education implies absolute atheism
>not r*ddit tier *tipping*
Assertions get arguments, shitposting gets memes.

>>55411961
Go home Ridley scott, you're drunk

>>55413448
Science is already treated as religion, see black science man or the replication rates in social "science" experiments.

>>55412626
Not same anon, but Disliking religion =/= being atheist.
You can have faith in a higher power without needing some bunch of crazy old frauds telling you what to do with your life. Think for yourself.

>>55411043
>>55408786
>>55409022

On this note one thing I like is sort of Shinto Animism in a setting where mundane objects and every day tools really do have fucking spirits - in this case, AI - who operate things and make them function. A techno-shinto priest is part shaman, part tech support, their job is to make sure the programs that keep society running are themselves running properly, and that can mean appeasement when the trashcan is mad at the vending machine because after running for so many years these programs pick up junk data that make them more and more... 'unique' and borderline self aware.

Simple spiritualism; a quiet but heartfelt belief in the human spirit or something like that.

>>55412409
They want communism. They just don't fully understand it. They think it means get the rich guy to pay for all my stuff.

>>55408786
Anything you want. There's no reason to assume that our religions needs to change. Truth is truth and the dichotomy between faith and reason is a false one.

>>55410919
>How does reincarnation work in space? Do we reincarnate as/from aliens? If not, why not? Does where you die matter? If you die in deep space, is your soul lost? Etc.
Considering that reincarnation transcends the physical universe, I don't know why people would think it could be so affected by physical conditions. I especially don't know why someone might think that dying in space means your soul is lost.

>>55408786
no organized religion would survive in a good scifi setting, unless it's a dystopian one, where people need religion to give them hope.
Spiritualism could survive.
Probably the best religious structure if you really really want one is some form of pantheism. No mral or behavior norms dictated by holy books,but a veneration for reality itself, with spiritualistic rituals to get in touch with the shit inside of stuff

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>>55411293
Hey, he actually did it!

>>55409201
religion going own as ducation and access to goo meical care goes up is not a meme, but an actual thing that is really happening.
religion is a meme that people who have no control or no understanding of their life need in order to comfort themselves.

>>55414668
Where does this meme that "religion can't survive in scifi" come from? Where does the assumption that a futuristic society will necessarily be some super-individualistic one where hierarchical cultural structures won't exist?

>>55414696
Religion isn't going away, it's spiritual religion that being replaced with something like it.
Religion, as a core, concrete basis (or major structure) of a culture will always be around; some singular entity that gives its adherents a shared set of morals and ethics.

>religion is a meme that people who have no control or no understanding of their life need in order to comfort themselves.
*tips fedora*

>>55413387
It's actually the opposite. Religion will cease to exist and spirituality will remain, uncorrupted by religion.

>>55414546
What the fuck? is Japan 40k?

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>>55408786
>Did you homebrew your own?

Sure, I even wrapped my homebrew system around it.

The religion is based around seven color-coded Virtues:
- Compassion (violet)
- Sincerity (indigo)
- Loyalty (blue)
- Insight (understanding and knowledge, green)
- Discipline (gold)
- Will (orange)
- Rectitude (conviction and righteousness, red)
There is a God, but his/her identity is neither defined nor pondered upon - God is just the purest collected representation of the seven Virtues.
Priests tend to be chill as fuck and act more like confidants rather than spiritual/religious leaders. They have no special religious traditions, they are only expected to uphold all seven Virtues and help others to do the same.
Temples are usually simple public gathering places offering a wide variety of recreational and community activities. Shrines are just small buildings venerating a single Virtue and generally being the most spiritual aspects of the whole religion.
Larger shrines have dedicated shrine maidens for maintenance and visitor guidance (otherwise, shrines are unmanned). More powerful priests have acolytes to help them out. Being a shrine maiden or an acolyte is seen as a sort of a highly respectful volunteer work.
The seven Virtues are the basis of the Policies (laws) and have a heavy influence on every social interaction. You literally cannot -not- follow this religion, only fail at upholding the Virtues. You can be judged according to the Virtues regardless of whether you believe in them or not, after all.

In-game, characters don't have characteristics like Strength or Agility, only different ranks of Virtues. A character can use any one Virtue when he makes a roll, but the Virtue used will directly influence the action he takes (using Loyalty will require some sort of cooperative action, while using Rectitude requires force to be employed).

>>55414530
That's true. If you believe people who have had near-death experiences, for example, the afterlife isn't actually a very religious place.

>>55414763
Spirituality is religion, simply on the opposing end of the personality (and arguably political) spectrum.

>>55414763
>uncorrupted
>implying religion is corrupting at all
>implying religion isn't an unequivocal social and cultural good
If anything, spirituality is what ruins the concept of religion.

>>55414709
>Where does this meme that "religion can't survive in scifi" come from?
The conflict thesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis

The idea is that the more science there is, the less religion there is, and since the future will have a lot more science, religion will be completely gone. People like this believe that an all-atheist society is the inevitable future.

It's bullshit.

>>55414530
>You can have faith in a higher power without needing some bunch of crazy old frauds telling you what to do with your life. Think for yourself.
>"I, an individual of only a few decades, know more then those men who have spent their lives contemplating the faith, built upon countless centuries of other men who have spent their lives contemplating the faith, and I use my supposed superior knowledge only to live my life according to egocentric individualism"
I'm an atheist, but fuck me, you "fuck the establishment" shits are beyond annoying. Literally angsty teenage rebellion tier.

>>55414846
If they followed the establishment, you'd call them sheep. And I thought atheists hated appeals to authority?

Also, being "spiritual but not religious" doesn't translate to egocentric individualism. Quite the opposite, in fact. NDEs were mentioned earlier as an example of being spiritual without religion, and those people also come back with reduced selfishness and competitiveness, little concern for material success, increased empathy and compassion, a greater sense of connection and love for others, and often a strong desire to help others.

>>55414846
As an atheist, part of my perspective is that tons of intelligent theists have discussed this religion stuff for hundreds of years and they can't all agree, so how am I supposed to be clever enough to know which is the correct one to believe in? Same thing with politics, frankly.

>>55414955
>If they followed the establishment, you'd call them sheep.
No, I wouldn't, I'd call them good people for finding a community they can be part of.
>And I thought atheists hated appeals to authority?
>every atheist is some leftist pseudo-anarchist individualist
When it comes to matters of science, you listen to scientists.
When it comes to matters of economics, you listen to economists.
When it comes to matters of mathematics, you listen to mathematicians.
When it comes to matter of theologists, naturally, you listen to theologians.

>Also, being ... help others.
Alright, so a statistically anomalous event leads to something that supports your conclusion. I don't suppose a significant portion of "spiritual but not religious" people have experienced NDE's, have they?

>>55414985
That's only because that fag Martin Luther had to go and ruin everything. At least Catholics have a structure and tradition to their faith, rather than the pick-and-choose mundanity that is the endless sects and denominations of protestants.

>>55415003
>That's only because that fag Martin Luther had to go and ruin everything. At least Catholics have a structure and tradition to their faith, rather than the pick-and-choose mundanity that is the endless sects and denominations of protestants.
Eh, even without Martin Luther there's Christianity, Judaism, Islam, all that stuff from random parts of Asia...

>>55415003
>Catholics have a structure and tradition to their faith

Yeah, picked-and-chosen mundanely from an endless pool of sects and denominations.

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>>55408786

New Age stuff on Crack.

Technology has become so complex that no one really understands it anymore (except for a very slim minority).

There is a sliding scale of superstition, Deeism and weird sects.

Organized religions are a popculture/meme phenomenon. Charismatic leaders gain a following and organize their cult until a fresh hot new cult comes along ans the old boring cult fades into obscurity.

The few rare cults that establish themselves for a long time often fall to infighting and splinter into different denomanitions. Especially once the leader dies.

>>55414770
Well I mean, they do have an undying god emperor in the form of a wrinkly living prune

>>55415051
>mfw catholics don't like to believe their religion is a syncretic frankenstein

hohoho

>>55414742
>some singular entity that gives its adherents a shared set of morals and ethics
modern democracies have better sets of philosophies for that.
religion as a tool for morals and ethics is a terrible thing.
>>55414709
because religious belief goes down with increased education, and standard of living.

It's uncertainty and low philosophical skills that give rise to the need for religion.

this is why europea countries have lower religious belief than the USA.


Furthermore the more things we can accomplish with technology the less need to appeal to a higher authority to save us there is.

Which is why, I said, the one religion that could survive in a scifi settng that itn's a dystopia is pantheism.

Or forms of spiritualism that people use siply as a way to feel more connected to each other and th the world around, but doesn't give them an moral guidance neither comforts them in times of uncertainty. Because they don't need it as almost any problems can be solved with technology.

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>>55411293
>There is a "remarkable drop in the number of galaxies" in a region of sky in the constellation ERIDANUS, Rudnick said.
>Eridanus is part of the Schwarzwelt in Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey
>The Schwarzwelt is a world created by a primordial mother goddess and inhabited by demons, born by humanities destructive nature
>"Highly advanced technological backing would be required, given the unknown nature of the Schwarzwelt's internal conditions (atmosphere, etc.) and the PLASMA BARRIER surrounding the phenomenon, which DISINTEGRATES MATTER AT THE MOLECULAR LEVEL. "
>mfw on outside
>mfw on the inside

FUCK

>>55415147
Christ, this is so fedora is makes me wince, and i'm a technology kinda guy.

There are plenty of things spirituality can help us answer that science cannot, and vice versa. The fundamental problem is that for a long time they were joined at the hip, so religion became a tool for understanding the world, and the answer to all the questions. Religion isn't the answer to the questions. Like science, religion is (or SHOULD BE) a mechanism for gathering those answers. Only instead of questions of a material nature, which science answers, religion and spirituality is the mechanism by which we answer questions about ourselves. It's all the soft, dirty things you can't reduced to 1's and 0's and cost v benefit analysis. The place of fuzzy logic and grey area's. Spirituality, religion, philosophy - these are the things we use to make ourselves human, and to make humans better. While you can argue that morality is (and I often do argue this) an advantageous trait using logic, and put it in terms of survive-ability, completely removing a sense of divine from morality and the self is reductionist

Simply put, what religion is or should be, is the mirror we hold up to examine ourselves and ask "am I a good person?"

>>55412052
definitely

>>55415147
>modern democracy
>good in any conceivable form

I still like how you're on this tangent of "religion being necessarily theistic"; I'm arguing for religion as a purely cultural construct, as that of a particularly embedded and well defined moral entity, not as "organized spirituality".

I'll say it again; religion at its base is a necessary feature of human civilization; it provides community for its adherents, a set of behaviors and ethics for them to follow (thereby increasing social cooperation, rather than everyone having their own little snowflake sets of morality), as well as providing some higher entity/goal that the adherents can focus their work and energy towards.

A god or spiritualism need not necessarily be the core of a religion, and that spot can be filled with almost anything you can think of; humanity as a whole, a great man, science, that particular nation, pleasure, art, sports; anything can be the core of a religion (although gods are the more obvious choice), and humans will naturally tend towards some form of organized religion in their society, based around some core entity or value of that society.

Take off your fedora for just half a second and actually think about what you're typing and reading for once.

>>55415186
Where does the science of psychology fit into this, regarding the "answering questions about ourselves" bit?

>>55415200
YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO DAD

>>55415200
To really distill your post, consider Jewish history: when the Jews had Israel, they didn't need a Talmud. It was only once diversity and international travel set in, atomizing people away from local villages, that Talmudism took off.

Religion is a "here's how to be a good person in this culture" manual. It's possible to learn without a manual in tiny Bronze-Age cultures; but today, a manual is necessary.

>>55415232
>implying psychology isn't a religion

Wheres that scientific process huh?

I know about this weird techno cult that has started up in my town. Basically a bunch of spitualist IT guys got together and decided that the human mind cant understand god but a machines could. I believe the end goal they have in mind is creating a phrophet and a vessel for god to embody or some shit.

>>55415243
The actual state of psychology notwithstanding (I'll admit I'm not that well informed on the subject) is the idea of applying the scientific process to learning how human minds work not relevant to that discussion?

>>55415253
I mean, Oracle Machines are featured pretty heavily in AI research as one of the better benevolent superintelligences.
A posthuman intelligence which collects as much information as it can and answers questions posed to it, but otherwise has no other motives or goals besides "learn as much as possible" and "answer questions".
Preferably, such an AI wouldn't try to purposefully manipulate human civilization through its answers in order to collect more information.

>>55415274
The actual state of psychology is that over 50% of psychology experiments have failed to replicate. I.e., the scientific process disproved them, but they still got published and taught.

In science, where we reason about reality with math instead of "ideas" aka feels, this is a worse error rate than off-the-streets superstitions.

>>55414806
spirituality is a part of religion, but religion has other things, like a dogma, a set of rules, a series of truths about the world and an organization set on maintaining the order of the religion

>>55414830
religion is what corrupts the concept of religion.
Religion is just a structure of power and control formed around a core of superstition.

Religion is one of the worst things for human society and culture.
What differentiates humans from all other animals, what made humans the dominant species on this planet, is the ability to adapt, to change and constantly improve. Religion chains everyone to the ideas of a bunch of dudes who lived hundreds or thousands of years ago.
It causes stagnation. ook at china, the arab world, india. All great at some point, until they found a relatively stable religious belief system, and they stopped.
The so called isamic golden age is the period when they were trying to adapt islamic teachings to the previous cultures that existed there. Once they were done they stopped progressing.

The luck of europe is that christianity was a religion founded by poor people for poor people and it brought with it inherent contradictions when used by people in power to justifiy their power. Which forced philosophers to twist their heads trying to justify it, and never succeeding, so that philosophy, and knowledge, could keep advancing in europe.

>>55415253
reminds me of that old sci-fi story everyone's heard:

"Dwan Ev ceremoniously soldered the final connection with gold. The eyes of a dozen television cameras watched him and the subether bore throughout the universe a dozen pictures of what he was doing.
He straightened and nodded to Dwar Reyn, then moved to a position beside the switch that would complete the contact when he threw it. The switch that would connect, all at once, all of the monster computing machines of all the populated planets in the universe -- ninety-six billion planets -- into the supercircuit that would connect them all into one supercalculator, one cybernetics machine that would combine all the knowledge of all the galaxies.
Dwar Reyn spoke briefly to the watching and listening trillions. Then after a moment's silence he said, "Now, Dwar Ev."
Dwar Ev threw the switch. There was a mighty hum, the surge of power from ninety-six billion planets. Lights flashed and quieted along the miles-long panel.
Dwar Ev stepped back and drew a deep breath. "The honor of asking the first question is yours, Dwar Reyn."
"Thank you," said Dwar Reyn. "It shall be a question which no single cybernetics machine has been able to answer."
He turned to face the machine. "Is there a God?"
The mighty voice answered without hesitation, without the clicking of a single relay.
"Yes, now there is a God."
Sudden fear flashed on the face of Dwar Ev. He leaped to grab the switch.
A bolt of lightning from the cloudless sky struck him down and fused the switch shut."

>>55415290
Yeah, that's clearly doing it wrong, but does that mean there's no point in trying to do it right?

>>55415186
Philosophy is better than religion at dealing with the stuff that science can't deal with though.

It's literally just dying because we know now that our morality and spiritual health aren't related to the physical structure and function of the universe we live in, and so trying to explain both with the same process is an exercise in futility.

w/respect to fictional religions:
- If we ever find a matrioshka brain or whatever, it's smarter enough than us that there's a reasonable argument for worshipping it because it's pretty much a "good enough" tier god.
- As society refragments in the great diaspora, as people have said, our innate trend towards occultic activities and ideas is going to drive a huge number of splinter faiths and belief systems, possibly unique to each ship, possibly with belief systems that literally only make sense in the context of that specific ship or station.

>>55415003
>When it comes to matter of theologists, naturally, you listen to theologians.
theologians can merely tell you what is the correct belief system of their own paticular sect or branch.

If you want to know how that religion or religion in general reflects or interacts with the rest of society, or with a single individual believer, you listen to sociologists, anthropologists, statisticians, psycologists and psychiatrists.

>>55415303
We know how to do it right: the scientific process.

The problem is the field of psychology usually doesn't use the scientific process, but passes off its results as if they are scientific.

This leads to people thinking that psychology is trying to do it right, instead of doing it wrong and not giving a shit about science.

>>55415312
Religion is a philosophy. Most of the classical philosophies related to how one viewed the gods.

>>55415330
Everything is philosophy.

>>55415328
>>55415303
>>55415290
>>55415274
>>55415243
Psychology simply can never be a science, because science starts with a base, and the human mind with it's innumerable permutations can never have a control. There is no "standard" mind, all psychological experiments can produce is anecdotal generalizations. This isn't to say psychology is useless, but it's not a science. It's a philosophy or religion.

>>55415291
>Religion is just a structure of power and control formed around a core of superstition.
Yes, and? Hierarchy is natural and fundamental to humanity. It is only natural that there is structured hierarchy to culture and ethics, too.

>change and adaption is our main strength
But that's absolutely wrong; our main strength is our highly developed capacity for mass social cooperation. Religion fosters and supports that by unifying people into even greater groups.

>Religion chains everyone to the ideas of a bunch of dudes who lived hundreds or thousands of years ago.
Ah, yes, I see the problem here; your utter disdain for tradition, for what has and does work, in favor of something new for the sake of it being new.

The greatest gradient from a given point does not necessarily lead to the global maximum.

>>55415291
>spirituality is a part of religion, but religion has other things, like a dogma, a set of rules, a series of truths about the world

Exactly. There are exceptions to anything, but generally "spirituality" is magic stuff and morals based on short-term feels, religion is magic stuff and morals based on time-tested culture refined through logic to promulgate orderly civilization.

>>55415337
if you want to meme, numbers are subjective because they only have the meaning we conceptualize them to have. 'One' is meaningless. It's a concept we use to interact with what we perceive to be reality

>>55415324
No, you're thinking of evangelists, anon.
Contrary to what Reddit may tell you, serious theologians actually debate and study with other denominations, possibly even other religions, to come to more complete conclusions.
Theology is unique among the philosophical disciplines for the fact that it's not always based on a priori reason, but on a posteri data in the form of holy text and sacred knowledge passed down.
Not saying whether it's wrong or right, of course, but you're oversimplifying things.

>>55415328
I feel like I'm being extremely bad at getting across my point, but I'm going to finally go to sleep rather than continue to try to elaborate.

>>55415186
>There are plenty of things spirituality can help us answer that science cannot, and vice versa
false.
Science is the accumulation of knowledge. It's the stucturation of all the answers we have found.
If something has an answer and we find it it becomes part of our own collective scientific knowledge. Otherwise you're just inventing an answer because you can't accet not having one.
>Like science, religion is (or SHOULD BE) a mechanism for gathering those answers
false. religion was never intended as such.
>religion and spirituality is the mechanism by which we answer questions about ourselves.
that's psychology and psychiatry. Religion and spirituality provide answers to things we don't know, but those answers are completely made up. And once a set of answers have been accepted they become dogmas that can't be changed.

>Spirituality, religion, philosophy - these are the things we use to make ourselves human

only philosphy has a place there. Religion is the thing we used when we didn't have anything better.

> what religion is or should be, is the mirror we hold up to examine ourselves and ask "am I a good person?
how is the set of norms and rules create by people thousands of years ago based on their understanding of the world a good choice to examine ourselves?

>>55415364
>false. religion was never intended as such.
Were you like, there, man?

>>55415352
Formalists please leave.

>>55415371
How can I LEAVE if HERE doesn't EXIST?! HAHAAHAHAA oh god i'm fading out help tg i can't k

>>55415352
No meme inteded. Science is a way to categorize and obtain knowledge. Science literally means knowledge. And philosophy deals with ways of obtaining and processing knowledge in general. It literally means love of knowledge. I'd argue that science is one of many philosophies. Just like religions.

>>55415364
>And once a set of answers have been accepted they become dogmas that can't be changed.

Dogma has been changed within the last 5 years in major faiths. Dogma changes.

>>55415384
>>55415384
it's almost as if he's reading from a 90's atheists handbook for living on the edge

>>55410703
the teeth girl

>>55415200
> I'm arguing for religion as a purely cultural construct, as that of a particularly embedded and well defined moral entity,
And I'm telling you that religion, spirituality or what have you, is no basis for proviing a well defined sense of morality.
It's based on terrible philosophy. In fact it's based on no philosophy. Somethign is right becaue it's right, and if you question it ou're a terrible person. Or it's right because someone sensed that it is so and he had enogh charima to convince the others.
>religion at its base is a necessary feature of human civilization
it's not.
>it provides community for its adherents
the community exhists before religion and in fact religion emerges from comunities.
> a set of behaviors and ethics for them to follow
a set of behaviors founded on baseless assumptions and that can't be modified or improved upon.
And you are still working on the weird assumption that morality can only come from religion.
Morality exists because we are social animals and a moral sense is embedded in our brain, except for defective people, that is, psychopaths.
And as for a justification for certain moral and ethical beliefs there are better philosophical systems than religion, which is no philosophycal system at all.
Again you just need to look at modern democracies and compare them to anything else.
>that spot can be filled with almost anything you can think of; humanity as a whole, a great man, science, that particular nation, pleasure, art, sports
now you're arguing for religion to not be religion at all, you just want a society that all unquestioningly follows a dogma.
Which just marks you as someone who can't handle the cultural conflicts that arises when people with differing beliefs come in contact with weach other and that ultimately leads to sicietal progress as people have t question and analyze themselves and their set of belief.
You just want societal cristallization

>>55410815
Goddamit you're good at this

>>55411530
10/10
What borad was this?

>>55415342
> Hierarchy is natural and fundamental to humanity

what does that even mean?

>It is only natural that there is structured hierarchy to culture and ethics,

how does that lead to a necessity for religion?
How does czech republic where over 90% of people are atheist functions ?
Even if for the sake of argument we accept that what you said it's true, why must that hierarchy be based on religion?
> our main strength is our highly developed capacity for mass social cooperation

people could cooperate but always do the same things and never improve.
Mass social cooperation in fact is born of our capacity of change and adaptation, that led us from being small groups of hunter gatherers to large groups of farmers.
But let's humor you.
Let's say mass cooperation is our main strenght.

That still doesn't make religion a force for good. Any belief in a common goal leads to improved social cooperation. Religion adds to it a series of superstitios beliefs that can never be questioned thus limiting the capacity of society to iprove itself.
>Ah, yes, I see the problem here; your utter disdain for tradition, for what has and does work, in favor of something new for the sake of it being new.
See, now you're trying to twist my words into something I haven't said. New for the sake of being new is as bad as old for the sake of being old.
Tradition, the achievements of the past is something we should build upon in order to keep improving. Not something we should be chained to. It seems that you are tied to the idea that the old is good for the sae of being old and should be maintained.
Because that's what religion does. It fixes some ideas that have appeared in the past, declares them the best that could exist, and takes away power from people who are currently alive.

ALTMAN BE PRAISED

>>55415348
>time-tested culture refined through logic to promulgate orderly civilization.
religion is based on a group of people with a specific belief system gaining power and eliminating all other belief systems.
>>55415360
and? how does that change any of what I said? theology is the study of fictional texts treated as if they were true, and trying to gain knowledge of the real world based on the illusions of people in the past.
There is no wisdom or knowledge to be gained from there that couldn't be obtained from othe better sources of philosophy.

>>55411438

This. "Kekism", when it started, was nomic where, instead of game rules, it was dogma invented on the fly and implemented ad-hoc. One person would suggest something and, if people adopted it, it became religious canon.

Then /pol/ discovered it and shat all over it like /pol/ does, and now there are people who legitimately believe shit we made up for giggles is actually real.

>>55415384
>Dogma has been changed within the last 5 years in major faiths
what dogma has been changed?
do christians no longer believe that jesus is the son of god and the way to salvation?
do muslims no longer believe that you need to pray 5 times a day facing the mecca is it's possible?

Or you mean that after decades of struggles they have been forced to adapt to societal changes in order to not lose adherents?

>>55415548
The worst of all at this is that normies/ /pol/ are actually going out in RL and vent their frustration at current political events, and bitch when, SURPRISE, everyone thinks the raging autist venting in 4chan-speak is kinda nuts.

On a unrelated note, why you still have this dick-measuring contest atheism vs. religion? As if anyone here will suddenly change their minds?

>>55415543
>religion is based on a group of people with a specific belief system gaining power and eliminating all other belief systems.


No shit. What do you think a ruling class is?

>>55415619
I was arguing with an anon who said that that is the correct way to structure a society.
Fortunately we have better political systems, that allow the existence of concurrent belief systems, and ruling class greatly depowered, in which anyone from any social class can enter and that doesn't have as their main worry the permanence of their power.

>>55411179
But Samberg IS the messiah.

>>55415543
Is theology just people arguing about fanfiction?

>>55416012
no, that is Law

>>55415649
Like what? Democracy makes power insecure, which forces massive investments in security from the ruling class. Unlike a kingdom, where security spending goes to fighter jets and GPS satellites, democratic internal security goes to domestic opinion manipulation in universities and newspapers, which hurts objective debate.

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>>55415548
>now there are people who legitimately believe shit we made up for giggles is actually real
Well, it's not like that's an unusual phenomenon.

>>55416074
In kingdoms and dictatorship, internal security also go to opinion manipulation, way more so than in democracies.

>>55416098
In kingdoms, this only happens which inter-ethnic strife forces it. Dictatorships suffer from the same root problem democracies do, legitimacy derived from mass opinion instead of a mandate of heaven, divine right, etc

>>55416137
>this only happens which inter-ethnic strife forces it
>this blatant lack of education
The european monarchies have spent 2 centuries shutting down any kind of debates before being swept down by the french revolution.

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>>55415548
I really see a dangerous ignorance in your words

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>>55408786
The geth cult of reapers(heretics ) from mass effect is very cool, a group of A.I. Clusters how pray for a ancient machine

>>55408786
Space worship (aka "the great void")

like Buddhist meditation/enlightenment
being in space is a holy nothingness, a blank eternity, etc
ritualised free-floating in space
zero-g baptism
direct (non-lethal) exposure to vacuum
space-burial

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>>55416699
>double dubs

>>55415511
we did this
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/33330332/

>>55415340

There is a lot of debate about that right now in psychology circles that actually care about science. Its why that big project of collecting as many MRI scans as possible was done. To try and build up a "base from averages."

A lot of scientific psychology is focused around biopsychology; studying brain structures and correlating them to their function in a working mind. The rest is built up around evo-psych which is about as scientific as evolutionary biology and learning theory, which tries very hard to get hard and repeatable rules. Response rates and times, learning period, etc.

But you aren't wrong. A lot of psychology is chasing grant money by promising stupid shit. A huge swathe of the field resembles social sciences more than it does actual science. Its not a reason to write off the whole field, just a reason to be cynical about wide ranging claims made by "researchers"

>>55414791
Looks pretty interesting. I might strip the mechanics out and steal it.

>>55414839
The core of the Conflict Thesis in modern times comes from some logical fallacies that we often fall prey to. The primary fallacy is that of Binary Opposition, where if one thing holds itself to not be another, then many will hold it to be opposed to the other in all forms. Proponents will then create arguments to show the other as inherently and fully opposed and negative, especially if the definitions of the two things contain functional or actual overlap.
We also call this Black and White Thinking. But look at how often you hear the phrase, from scientists, "science is not religion".
The second fallacy is related to the first, and holds that two opposed items cannot have any overlap, except in opposition to each other. Hence the scientific madness of trying to measure the weight of a soul, or determining the existence of a god that is not corporeal - and then declaring them impossible, and therefore religion a bunch of fools. Considering that modern science is focused on the material world, and specialized in it, I would say they're talking out their ass when they fall prey to both fallacies - because then they stop doing science and start trying to disprove religion.
Religious leaders do it too, focusing on attacking science as a bunch of materialistic fools instead of doing religious things. But we have a name for that: anti-intellectualism.

>>55417360
Psychology is currently in the same boat as Sociology - we must observe enough data to figure out the correlation between various issues and the causes of them.
The problem is that its a complex field, and people like reduction to simplicity - sorta like the meme of Freud blaming everything on the mother. He did more than that, but people reduced his work to simplicity.

>>55415003
>Alright, so a statistically anomalous event leads to something that supports your conclusion.
Yes, and? I don't know what NDEs being relatively uncommon has to do with anything.

>I don't suppose a significant portion of "spiritual but not religious" people have experienced NDE's, have they?
I don't know. Why does it matter? I was just pointing out an example of how your "egocentric individualism" stuff didn't hold true.

>>55415147
>modern democracies have better sets of philosophies for that.
Modern democracies largely base their laws and ethics on Christian morality, even if some people won't admit it. And I say that as a non-Christian (though I don't really consider myself an atheist either).

>>55415291
>Religion chains everyone to the ideas of a bunch of dudes who lived hundreds or thousands of years ago.
Yes, that's why the church was one of the largest centers of science and learning for centuries. That's why the Big Bang theory was proposed by a priest. That's why the father of modern genetics was a monk. Clearly religion precludes all advancement and curiosity.

>>55415431
>And I'm telling you that religion, spirituality or what have you, is no basis for proviing a well defined sense of morality.
Actually, it's the only possible basis for morality. An atheistic, materialistic universe is inherently amoral and nihilistic. Any "morality" people create in such a universe is entirely subjective and has no objective basis in anything.

>>55415548
>Then /pol/ discovered it
Wasn't /pol/ where it originally came from? Or have I just not been paying attention?

>>55415595
>The worst of all at this is that normies/ /pol/ are actually going out in RL and vent their frustration at current political events
Hilariously that's actually a completely different subset of kek autism. Pretty sure it was Sargon of Akkad who started the whole "Kekistan" retardation, which barring a few outliers seems mostly separate from the original Kek stuff in everything but name and common origin.

>>55415431
>And I'm t... society is based.
I'm arguing, a posteri, empirically, that religion is pretty much the only structure that has been able to successfully do so.

>it's not.
It is; some form or fashion of organized religion has been present in every human civilization since the dawn of time, and even now, there are religion-like structures forming in the rapidly atheistic leaning age.
Unless you're also one of those people who believe in "history as progress", who think that the modern era is an inevitable direction of civilization, rather than potentially an anomalous blip in human history.

>the ... from comunities.
Religion is grows alongside communities, strengthens communities, and often increases the size of communities as its adherents grow.

>a set of behaviors founded on baseless assumptions and that can't be modified or improved upon.
>And you are still working on the weird assumption that morality can only come from religion.
Of course religions can be modified or improved upon, they do so all the time, just very slowly. This is good. Tradition is good. Rapid, blind change is not.

>Morality exists b... that is, psychopaths.
You'd have a point if everyone, all across the globe, had the same innate sense of morals and ethics; they do not. Morality is heavily cultural, based upon fundamental, basic biological metamorals that don't provide a set of ethics besides stuff like "work with your tribe/people."

>And as for a ... system at all.
You can have a religion based upon a philosophical system, but the purpose of religion is to be a cultural monolith, a hard structure, upon which a community can hold a set of ethics and morals without deviation.

>Again you just need to look at modern democracies and compare them to anything else.
I have, and modern democracies are probably the worst thing you could provide as examples of "moral strength or progress", beaten only by outright anarchy. Democracy is terrible in every way.

>>55415431
>now you're arguing for religion to not be religion at all, you just want a society that all unquestioningly follows a dogma.
No, I'm arguing for religion to be a religion; a cultural structure based around some entity or value that is coupled with some moral dogma. That is a religion, at its core, and its structural nature has nothing to do with supernatural worship.

>Which just marks you as someone who can't handle the cultural conflicts that arises when people with differing beliefs come in contact with weach other and that ultimately leads to sicietal progress as people have t question and analyze themselves and their set of belief.
Religion is a means by which societies do handle cultural conflict! It is a core part of a culture that helps it to assert and maintain its identity, rather than being irrevocably mixed and changed by whoever else shows up. It is a means of preserving tradition and purity. And no, despite what you may thing, not all cultures are equal.
>You just want societal cristallization
Yes, I do. I wand tradition. I want stable culture. I want a culture and society that doesn't change its morals and values every twenty years in accordance with the pendulum.

>>55421675
>pendulum

Tbf nowadays it's more of a ratchet.

File: So_much_heresy.jpg (89KB, 375x315px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 375x315px

>>55416699
>>55417055

>>55415514
>what does that even mean?
It means its natural and fundamental to humanity, you illiterate idiot. Humans will naturally organize themselves into hierarchical social structures, and any supposed egalitarian structure requires outside force (by a naturally hierarchical group, since they have power over it) to maintain such equality.
Religion is one such facet to this.

>how does that lead to a necessity for religion?
Because a religion is quite literally the government of moral society; it is the government of how people act and treat each other on a moral basis.
There will be something (or many somethings) that people will devote themselves towards, or even worship.
There will be a hierarchical structure surrounding the adherents to this something, informal or formal.
Morals, ethics, and behaviors around this devotion will arise from it, applying to its adherents.

>Even if for the sake of argument we accept that what you said it's true, why must that hierarchy be based on religion?
Fuck, you really are illiterate. I have not been arguing for "religion as the physical government".

>people could cooperate but always do the same things and never improve.
You're implying there's always something to improve upon, that there can be no "sufficiently good society". You are wrong.

>That still doesn't make religion a force for good. Any belief in a common goal leads to improved social cooperation. Religion adds to it a series of superstitios beliefs that can never be questioned thus limiting the capacity of society to iprove itself.
Religion adds to it a dogma and a set of rules that help ensure that people WILL CONTINUE to hold that common goal, and that they WILL CONTINUE to cooperate in a meaningful manner.

>>55415514
>>55421847
>See, now you're trying to twist my words into something I haven't said. New for the sake of being new is as bad as old for the sake of being old.
No, I'm saying exactly what you have said. Your entire argument has been "change for the sake of change", and pretending it isn't is dishonest in the extreme.
>Tradition, the achievements of the past is something we should build upon in order to keep improving. Not something we should be chained to. It seems that you are tied to the idea that the old is good for the sae of being old and should be maintained.
Yes, we should be build upon that which can be improved, but not everything can or should be improved! I support tradition and the idea that the good is old on a purely empirical basis; the old worked, it has worked, and it likely will continue to work. No need to fix what isn't broken, excepting some extreme circumstances.

>Because that's what religion does. It fixes some ideas that have appeared in the past, declares them the best that could exist, and takes away power from people who are currently alive.
And you know what? At some point, those "ideas" had to have been brand new, fresh out of the oven. They had to survive their contemporaries challenging those ideas. Then they had to survive the next generation. Then the next. It had to survive countless generations of people challenging them, and through it, were gradually refined and improved.
Forgive me if I don't think that -this- generation can overturn the thought of the last hundred.

>>55415543
>>55415543
>and? how does that change any of what I said? theology is the study of fictional texts treated as if they were true, and trying to gain knowledge of the real world based on the illusions of people in the past.
>There is no wisdom or knowledge to be gained from there that couldn't be obtained from othe better sources of philosophy.
Then it's literally just philosophy anyways, and if we're going to be pedantic about it anyways, then you can't create a "perfect morality" based on logical philosophy anyways. Any logical statement can be formulated as a mathematical statement (or more precisely, mathematical statements ARE logical statements, and vice versa), and Godel's incompleteness theorem states that no axiomatic system can be both complete or consistent.
This means that it either cannot prove all true things based on its self-proving set of axioms, or it can prove all true things, but it's axioms cannot be derived from themselves. Modern philosophy is no more a way to absolute truth than religion or science is.

>>55418771
A statistically anomolous portion of the population does not disprove a statistical conclusion.
The first rule of statistics is that you don't include sufficiently large rare outliers in your mean.

>>55418971
Nice argument
>Churches and priests have furthered science
>Definitely not because they were the only ones who had the security and time to spend time on academics
Just because science can still occur with religion doesn't mean that religion has no negative effects on the advancement of knowledge.

>>55408786
I've always imagined Christianity would stick around even past the point of alien contact. I could see the Anabaptist denomination specifically making it pretty well in a sci-fi setting. With their central tenets about the "Ban" they might also be the only religious group we *want* to have forming a galaxy spanning super-religion.