Why are almost all the great magicians males while women are

>>55384104
because only males have access to higher education while women are sidelined and denied promotions
#EndThePatriarchy

because women usually have no problems losing their virginity before 30.

>>55384104
Demonstrably false.

Circe, Baba Yaga, Morgan leFay, the Morai, Semiramis, Cassandra...the list goes on.

>>55384104
Like Galadriel, the most powerful magical being besides Sauron in Middle Earth? Or like Niviane/Morgan (depending on source) who out magics Merlin, trapping him forever? I suppose at least in more modern things Dumbledore wasn't outdone by a woman, but there we go.

>>55384164
>all are evil or at least have a negative connotation

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>>55384104
Women don't tend to go into S.T.E.M.M. fields.


the second M is for Mathematics.

Effort

>>55384198

... And?

>>55384104

It's more that male magicians are main characters and female ones are side characters or antagonists.

>>55384104
It's like asking why average character in an "adult book" is mid-40 English teacher, angsty about mid-life crisis and his boring life.
Because that's what average author of those books is.

But I'll give you that, you made me reply, 2/10

>>55384198

Nobody said they had to be heroes, just that they had to be great magicians.

>>55384265

Also male characters are just inherently way more interesting than female ones.

>>55384288
the wisdom of wizards

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>>55384282

Towers are a peculiarity of most wizards. According to many female, earthy, druidic persons of an unshaven armpits persuasion they are…

‘Towering symbols of the lascivious thaumaturgical dominance of the wizardly profession expressed in architectural form to compensate for their inadequacy and to express their believed supremacy over female oriented earth magic.’

Quite what any of that means most people are not sure but wizards who have seen the patches of mud these people call holy tend to attribute it to ‘tower envy’ and add an extra storey.

>>55384298

It's true though. Google Galbrush for an explanation of why.

In order to be a good character you need to have flaws, weaknesses and hardships, and female characters can't have those because that's sexist.

>>55384104
because if feminists were all actually smart and useful to society, they will not enter a student debt just to graduate with useless degree such as gender studies.

Isnt it because wizards are based on astronomers and other scientific dudes of old and witches into women who made illegal breweries or were actual village witch doctors?

>>55384104
Sexism turned into tradition mostly.

>>55384104

Says you. My witches are the real deal.

Wouldn't think it's the "patriarchy", seriously. You'd probably find more women-knights in pre-1900 fiction than order of witches and whatnot. But probably not that many orders of wizards either (I'd venture to say Tolkien kinda bore out the idea, but amusingly enough his "wizards" are pretty much not school of wizards).

In chivalric literature you find wizards (evil, by default) and sorceress (slightly less evil but perhaps more dangerous). Generally both figure are pretty much sexualised (wizards needs princess, sorceress likes a tiny bit too much the knight) but amusingly enough there isn't a real power gap, and they don't really have an "order" or whatnot (notice that if you take Conan's stories -in the thirties- it's like this: many apprentices-masters bonds, not a single school of whatever. Which is kinda amusing, considering how he uses religion, but I digress).

Honestly I think the "wizards seem more scientifical so they're more powerful" approach is kinda retarded or at least very boring (if I want "SCIENCE!" I play soft scifi), but even then, I think it's really a RPG thing, before that it wasn't so.

Notice that for all of ther shit Rowling, not coming from a RPG background, doesn't even differentiate the twos - and she's an influence at least as heavy as DND and derivatives.

>>55384198

>Cassandra

>evil

Dude, if anything Homer says that 90% of men are bastards, and 10% of women are. Even Circe is debatable, whereas Ulysses is simply astoninshingly bad.

>>55384559
>whereas Ulysses is simply astoninshingly bad.
t.Roman

>>55384570
>constantly cheats on his wife
>gets all his men killed
>murders his wife's suitors for no good reason

>>55384346
For some reason I'm imaging Belgarath or similar type wizard listening to that sort of drivel and then saying

"Nah, I just like the view".

>>55384570

>crying like a little bitch with Ecuba when captured

>killing for loot greeks when the war is finished

>crying about home and then fucking Calypso for years

No, seriously. It's difficult to imagine him worshipped, it you take into account all of his deeds.

And people say shit about Achilles like he was a musclehead (he was the only one opposing of Ifigenia's sacrifice, I think).

>>55384417
Depends on setting, story, time-period, who's doing the editing of the story, when the editing was done...
In short - it fucking really depends.

Best case of this phenomena is probably the legendary queen of what's today Somalia. Her legend went through so many retellings, edits, changes and what's not that in the same time you have now two most popular version: one where she's an evil, Godless sorceress tempting the rightful king and master of the realm and the obedient, but cunning first wife of said king, Sheherezade style, also dealing with magic at times.
Neither has nothing to do with original version of the semi-real legend, where there was a tribe with a queen, but this is just story evolution for you, anon.

>>55384198

Most wizards in myhtology are evil too, numbnuts. Merlin is the exception, though that has more to do with him being on Arthurs side than any inherent goodness of his person.

>>55384588
>for no good reason
How about them trying to take his throne and wife when he wasn't present?

Also - if you seriously want to judge any of the Greek "heroes", you are going to have a really bad time, since they were almost all rageful adulters killing people and things because they wanted to.

>>55384635
>Merlin is the exception
Depends on the version of the story.

Merlin was the greatest "no sense of right and wrong" wizard.

>>55384559
>Honestly I think the "wizards seem more scientifical so they're more powerful" approach is kinda retarded or at least very boring (if I want "SCIENCE!" I play soft scifi), but even then, I think it's really a RPG thing, before that it wasn't so.

Yeah, it rather is. As you start needing to go 'So how are these two spellcaster classes different?'. I don't mind 'More scientific magic' as long as it's not the same as 'The best in every way'.

I liked how 4e separated it. The wizard has more knowledge and a lot of precision, much more capable of subtle magic. The Sorcerer? They've got magic in the blood, an innate understanding of what they can make magic do that lets them pull off innately what most wizards would consider staggering difficult.

For a wizard, transforming even from one animal to another is a difficult task. There is a huge amount of precision required to make it work right, many variables and very complex magic.

For a sorcerer? Transforming themselves into a living lightning bolt, blitzing through half a dozen people and reforming unharmed at the other end is child's play because they are not working with a complex spell, the are working with an innate sense for themselves and the magic that is part of them.

Rather than say, 3.5's 'Sorcerers are Wizards that have gone retarded'

>>55384652

Yeah. Hence why he is only leaning 'good' due to proximity to Arthur.

>>55384647
>How about them trying to take his throne and wife when he wasn't present?
After the guy has been lost at sea for 10 years.

>Also - if you seriously want to judge any of the Greek "heroes", you are going to have a really bad time, since they were almost all rageful adulters killing people and things because they wanted to.
No shit, Sherlock, that's because they're from a fucked up time.

>>55384104

We measure greatness by feats of power. That sort of magical dickwaving is generally a male priority. Female spellcasters arent less powerful or knowledgeable, they just have different priorities. A male wizard builds a giant tower and summons archfiends, a female sorceress lives in a cozy house on an island where everyone who lands there is under her power, whether they realize it or not. A wizard masters control over death so he can become an immortal lich, a sorceress thinks that sounds gross and just stays young forever.

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>>55384745

At least most of Hercs bad moments came from Hera being a bitch

>>55384194
Peter Jackson's bullshit is not cannon.

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>>55384104
Lets ask Schoppenhauer, shall we?

>The nobler and more perfect a thing is, the later and slower is it in reaching maturity. Man reaches the maturity of his reasoning and mental faculties scarcely before he is eight-and-twenty; woman when she is eighteen; but hers is reason of very narrow limitations. This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important. It is by virtue of man’s reasoning powers that he does not live in the present only, like the brute, but observes and ponders over the past and future; and from this spring discretion, care, and that anxiety which we so frequently notice in people. The advantages, as well as the disadvantages, that this entails, make woman, in consequence of her weaker reasoning powers, less of a partaker in them. Moreover, she is intellectually short-sighted, for although her intuitive understanding quickly perceives what is near to her, on the other hand her circle of vision is limited and does not embrace anything that is remote; hence everything that is absent or past, or in the future, affects women in a less degree than men. This is why they have greater inclination for extravagance, which sometimes borders on madness. Women in their hearts think that men are intended to earn money so that they may spend it, if possible during their husband’s lifetime, but at any rate after his death.

>>55384104
Women can't into math, and irl magic was full of math

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>>55384647

Well, I think the judgment thing is at least as old as Homer. Was it right to tell Agamennon to fuck off? Much shit came from that.

>>55384695

Personally i really like DW third-party witches. Thematically, they have no rituals like the wizards, nor specific spells, but they can:

a) use a generic enchantment to deal damage
b) prepare potions. With enought time/ingredients/whatever constraints is appropriate, they can anything that conceivably a potion could do.

Also, they fucking fly with a broom.

>>55384908

She was probably third, with Elrond second, so not really much of a difference.

>>55384621

Also, I think the fallic thing is exaggerated. Witches are more linked to earth, wizards are brainy social fuckups (and yes, the idea isn't anything new). And towers aren't generally that comfortable.

In older literature enchatresses didn't exactly live like squatters, they had palaces and shit.

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>>55384932
>Schoppenhauer

>>55384998
Galadriel > every living elf in Valinor or Middle Earth during the 3rd age, as per Tolkien's ranking of Eldar (Luthien>Galadriel=Fëanor). Only maiar are stronger magic users.

>>55384346
So Witches need to live in vast temples with a domed roof with a cupola, as to resemble a majestic breast.

OP, detailed answer would take quite a lot of time to explain, and quite a LOT of evidence to be supported, but in very simplified way:

IT SEEMS that (almost) universally through out human cultures, feminity is associated with Chaos, and masculinity with Order. It seems to be a form of a cognitive universality and it's actually kinda logical when you think about it.

The "WIZARDS" that we usually think of in context of fantasy and mythology are usually men who represent order: Scholars of their fields, lords and masters, characters inspired by mythological figures like Odin, Merlin: Rulers, people who keep order in their domain. Much of it was also inspired by magic as we know it from the historical European "occultist science", the hermeneutic philosophies, astrologies etc: forms of magic that presume ORDER in the world, and aim to discover that order in the world.

That is why an image of such a wizard is going to be associated with masculinity, the orderly part of the world.

Meanwhile, feminine magic is going to be associate with chaos, both good and bad. That is why characters such as Morgana, Baba Yaga, Circe are morally ambiguous, natural, spontaneous, intuitive: and so is most form of magic associated with witches, wise women, god-women etc.

So basically, OP chose a inherently male-associated, orderly form of magic and asked "why it is it male-dominated": well, because that is what the image represents: male, order-focused perspective on supernatural powers.

That is, at least as far as I'm concerned, the GIST of it. Of course in reality it's a bit more complicated.

>>55385007
>Schoppenhauer
He is a pretty cool dude if you know HOW to read him, know a little about his background, and can take him not too seriously.

>>55384392
Speaking from experience, huh?

>>55384104
Hey, Betty is a great magician!

>>55384998
>Also, I think the fallic thing is exaggerated.
Uh... no? The fallic thing is not exaggerated, it's JUST COMPLETE BULLSHIT.
It is, quite literally, about the fucking view. It's like saying that towers in general are build to represent a dick, instead of assuming that they are build so that you could SEE FUCKING FURTHER.

>>55384351
>Galbrush
>Gamergate
Sorry, once you invoke gamergate to defend your point, you kind of automatically lose the argument.

>>55385216
>I dont like who made this reasonable explanation so you lost

wew lad

Beards

>>55385279

'Female characters having flaws is sexist so male characters are better' isn't really a reasonable argument.

I mean, one of the most well known mythological female characters is Guinevere and she's a very flawed person. Or Liriel from the Old Kingdom series, who has a bad tendency to leap before she looks that bites her in the ass.

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>>55385216
But he didnt invoke Gamergate, you did. He only mentioned the Galbrush-Paradox.

Does this mean you lost the argument?

>>55385072
>>55385072

Personally I'd say this too but at the Grey Havens, I quote the professor:

There was Gildor and many fair Elven folk; and there to Sam's wonder rode Elrond and
Galadriel. Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three. But Galadriel sat upon a white palfrey and was robed all in glimmering white, like clouds about the Moon; for she herself seemed to shine with a soft light. On her finger was Nenya, the ring wrought of _mithril_, that bore a single white stone flickering like a frosty star. Riding slowly behind on a small grey pony, and seeming to nod in his sleep, was Bilbo himself.

He doesn't rank the three, but still, as much as I love Galadriel (my actual favorite character in the legendarium) one is supposed to have some doubts. On the other hand she did lay waste to Dol Guldur like it was nobody's business, but I tend to think it was more due to her personal background and personality.

>>55385136

If anything, females might be connected to impurity (to have a not-western example, it's pretty clear in Japanese mythology with Ukemochi-no-kami).

The male orderliness is kinda bullshit even taking into account greek myths, no matter egyptian ones (to take some that informed western culture). It's actually really a jewish thing.

>>55385198

I would lie if I said that the caludron vs the tower has absolutely no freudian connection to me, tough.

(even the broom might have some. The book is the only one that might "neutral)

>>55385318

It's a problem in american popular culture right now. Or at least it's percevied so.

Not that really stops anyone. Hardly any charachter, woman, man or half-wold in SOIAF is flawless.

>>55385318
>isn't really a reasonable argument.
Yet you didn't bother to elaborate wy its not a reasonable argument other than providing counterexamples that kinda miss the point.

>I mean, one of the most well known mythological female characters is Guinevere and she's a very flawed person.
And it proves what the other dude said since feminazis hate her in nearly every version and especially harp how her portrayal in Mists of Avalon is sexist.

> Or Liriel from the Old Kingdom series, who has a bad tendency to leap before she looks that bites her in the ass.
No idea who that is so I cant argue.

>>55385402

>Not that really stops anyone. Hardly any charachter, woman, man or half-wold in SOIAF is flawless.

Yeah, SOIAF is kinda really popular right now and basically everyone in that is several kinds of flawed.

>>55384104

Men are more magically powerful. As Man was made to have dominion over Woman, Man masters Woman in all things.

It's not *fair*, but it's just how things work. It's like how your average man is always stronger than your average woman.

>>55385319
Which was created by?

>>55384282
True. Male characters are defined by who they are and what they do, while female characters are defined by the males in their lives. It's like comparing Sun which radiates light to Moon which reflects that light.

>>55385412

>Mists of Avalon

Well, Mists of Avalon is a pretty shitty book. It's also a book that really gives her the short end of the stick, basically portraying her as singlehandledly responsible for everything bad due to being a religious zealot against Good and Pure Celtic Paganism.

>>55385279
>misogynistic circlejerk write about gender politics
>'reasonable' explanation
You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?

>>55385412
Name one strong woman character in a successful bit of fantasy literature or culture that you think was written to have no flaws in order to appease feminists, and someone here will show you that you are wrong.

>>55385402
>If anything, females might be connected to impurity
And impurity is an aspect of chaos. As are diseases, water, fire, night, birth etc...

Ukemochi-no-kami is not a great example, because you could come up with five other female dieties in Shinto pantheon that are not associated with impurity (Amaterasu, for starters?), and more importantly, the main symbolic relevance of Ukemochi is that SHE GIVES BIRTH to something (much like Izanami), with the impurity being secondary - a sort of risk that always comes with the ability to create/birth.

>he male orderliness is kinda bullshit even taking into account greek myths
Even the greek myths still feature this aspect, even if less pronounced. Egyptian mythology has it strongly featured (remember Ra, Bat, Hathor?)
It really is a pretty universal feature. The fact that it is universal as a pattern does not mean that it's equally as explicity in all faucets of all cultures though.

>I would lie if I said that the caludron vs the tower has absolutely no freudian connection to me, tough.
Those associations are 100% arbitrary. Hell, it's not like cauldron is exactly an universal trait of a female magician to begin with: it's mostly popular due to Shakespear.
And even if we argued that it's more universal than I think it is: cauldron is again a place of transformation or birth of new things - chaotic place where things mix together, are destroied and form new things. Tower is a place of sight: that is far more logical symbolic reading than assuming they have to be associate with sexual organs due to similarity of shape.

>>55385467
I have no idea. Is it like the Hacker know as 4chan?

>>55385519
>misogynistic circlejerk write about gender politics
I must missed the part where it was writtern by the artist formerly known as Mr. Gamergate according to you?

>You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?
no u

>>55385466
That's amusing.

Circe and Baba Yaga are insanely powerful. Most deities of magic are female (Odin isn't a god of magic - he learned magic, he didn't just HAVE it). Most sorcerous power is kept by women rather than men - only after a culture is 'civilized' do men step up in the magical world, and you can bet that's not because they earned it, but because the histories have been rewritten. Even Solomon was undone by a witch..

>>55385412

>No idea who that is so I cant argue.

It's a dark (But not grim) fantasy book series with (Generally, they are the title characters for a lot of books but the viewpoint does shift about) female characters as the leads. Sabriel, Liriel, Abhorson. They are really not defined by the male characters in the series and well rounded characters. Sabriel puts way too much on her own shoulders and is very bad at accepting other's help, Liriel tends to leap before she looks and Clariel has a vengeful streak a mile wide that overrules her better judgement a lot of the time.

>>55385529
Sure. After you mention one strong woman character in a successful bit of fantasy literature or culture that you think was written to have flaws that feminists don't think is a sexist/misogynist portrayal of a woman, and someone here will show you that you are wrong.

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>>55385519
>Gamergate
>misogynistic circlejerk

wew lad

>>55385466
Name three male wizards who were not undone by a female witch or sorceress

You get Gandalf as a freebie.

>>55385628
You were arguing that women characters can't be interesting because they don't have flaws.

I asked you to name an example, and you shifted the argument to "some feminists are unreasonable", which I would agree with, but that's not what you were arguing.

Now name a character.

>>55385529
Female Thor.
Rey from Stah Wahs Episode lel
Furiosa from Mad Max

And those are just the ones were the writers/directors actually stated that they want a feminist hero.

>>55385160
Your clothes are red!

>>55385687

Furiosa wasn't flawless. Her obsession with finding a perfect place rather than improving a bad place nearly got herself and everyone else killed. First with the Vuvalini, then attempting to go across the salt flats.

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>>55385456

There probably is a pinch of truth in comics, tough. Amusingly enough this is the one field where the "anti-jsw" crowd MIGHT have some reasons, females in these nowdays are pretty shitty because they need to be perfect, the artists/editors fearing what might happen with a bad role model.

>>55385469

>implying the Moon isn't the male like in nordic myths

>>55385532

I think it's kinda of hard implication to make. The concept of chaos isn't really that universal.

Ukemochi is considered impure because of the food. Amaterasu isn't, but I don't use Susano as a an example of all men in that mythology being murderhobos, it's a connection.

In the other hand, greeks seems to picture men as fucking serial rapists alright, and the chaos is pretty much male as well (Titans, etc.).
Amusingly enough Sehkmet might be a good example of fermale chaos (albeti it's chaos for justice) but actual evil chaos is rapist Set.

Not gonna argue with the caludron thing, to me it's pretty clear, to you it's not. Amen.

Pic somewhat related to japanese myths.

>>55385469

Good point. How can you compare a male like Tsukiyomi with a woman like Amaterasu?

>>55385746
The male-female dichotomy usually operates on activity-passivity in most myths.
I can't think of a female mythological character that is proactive instead of reactive.

>>55385677
>You were arguing that women characters can't be interesting because they don't have flaws.
No. The Galbrush paradox in fact explains that we cant have a strong female character with flaws without feminists complaining that that character is sexist as if making a female lead with flaws itself is sexist.

>I asked you to name an example, and you shifted the argument to "some feminists are unreasonable"
I never did. I recommend you read what the Galbrush-Paradox actually describes.

>Now name a character.
Right after you. You made the claim that you can have an interesting female protag with flaws that can be objectively recognized as such.

Why are almost all the greats in nearly every profession male?

>>55385770

How about the Old Kingdom series being mentioned? Or the fact that ASOIAF is super popular right now and it's characters are all some degree of horribly flawed.

>>55384104
Bitches become witches

>>55385601

To be fair, I'm Chinese. In Asian magical tradition, the men are the sorcerers.

>>55385773
Men tend to have more extremes, like there are more dumb-dumbs in the male side, but also more genius.
Also Testosterone it's a hell of a drug, it makes you want to compete, take risks and gives you energy and drive.

>>55385773
Because:

>It is only the man whose intellect is clouded by his sexual instinct that could give that stunted, narrow-shouldered, broad-hipped, and short-legged race the name of the fair sex; for the entire beauty of the sex is based on this instinct. One would be more justified in calling them the unaesthetic sex than the beautiful. Neither for music, nor for poetry, nor for fine art have they any real or true sense and susceptibility, and it is mere mockery on their part, in their desire to please, if they affect any such thing.

>This makes them incapable of taking a purely objective interest in anything, and the reason for it is, I fancy, as follows. A man strives to get direct mastery over things either by understanding them or by compulsion. But a woman is always and everywhere driven to indirect mastery, namely through a man; all her direct mastery being limited to him alone. Therefore it lies in woman’s nature to look upon everything only as a means for winning man, and her interest in anything else is always a simulated one, a mere roundabout way to gain her ends, consisting of coquetry and pretence. Hence Rousseau said, Les femmes, en général, n’aiment aucun art, ne se connoissent à aucun et n’ont aucun génie (Lettre à d’Alembert, note xx.). Every one who can see through a sham must have found this to be the case. One need only watch the way they behave at a concert, the opera, or the play; the childish simplicity, for instance, with which they keep on chattering during the finest passages in the greatest masterpieces. If it is true that the Greeks forbade women to go to the play, they acted in a right way; for they would at any rate be able to hear something. In our day it would be more appropriate to substitute taceat mulier in theatro for taceat mulier in ecclesia; and this might perhaps be put up in big letters on the curtain.

>>55385687
>Female Thor
>Successful
>Rey
Unwilling to open up to others because of her over reliance on the self. She's not well written or interesting but she does have character flaws.
>Furiosa
Not fantasy, she's an action heroine. I will agree that hollywood action films are an excellent source of the boring female protagonists you bemoan.

>>55385773
Don't you know? Men have been keeping women subjugated collectively for centuries, which has been the sole factor in them failing to succeed in their endeavors. Somehow, this doesn't make men superior.

>ThisIsYourBrainOnFeminism.jpg

>>55385663

The Yellow Emperor
Rasputin
Elric
Moses

>>55385811

>I will agree that hollywood action films are an excellent source of the boring female protagonists you bemoan.

Mind you, hollywood action films are a pretty excellent source of boring male protagonists too.

>>55385783
>How about the Old Kingdom series being mentioned?
Which as I said I am not familiar with so I cannot tell you anything about its portrayal of characters.

>Or the fact that ASOIAF is super popular right now and it's characters are all some degree of horribly flawed.
Which from the very beginning had shitstorm after shitstorm how misogynist it is supposedly.

>>55385770
>You made the claim that you can have an interesting female protag with flaws that can be objectively recognized as such.

No I didn't. You've never read a book, have you?

And also, the objections of feminists don't cause books not to get written. You are afraid of phantoms.

>>55384288
Warhammer had the kekest of fantasy fiction outside of Pratchett.

>>55385849

>Which from the very beginning had shitstorm after shitstorm how misogynist it is supposedly.

Citation required? I'm googling this and not getting much beyond 'Occasionally someone wrote an online article that doesn't seem to have gone far' and just as many arguing that it's feminist. If you rule out everything that someone has ever said is misogynist you'll end up with basically nothing ever.

>>55385835
For sure. But when it's a woman character it's suddenly the fault of a cabal of scheming feminists, naturally!

>>55385402
The ranking of the rings doesn't reflect on the power of their bearers (Gandalf as Maia is naturally more powerful than any Child of Iluvatar but doesn't have the strongest ring), and Elrond isn't described as the best elf at any point, unlike Galadriel or Fëanor. The ranking of the Three is also actually unclear, there is a manuscript about the Elessar where Nenya is called "the Chief of the Three".

In any case the power of the Three is in preservation of good, not destruction. Even if that wasn't the case Galadriel dismantled Dol Guldur after the One Ring was destroyed, which meant the power of the Three was faded too.

>>55385769

It's a western approach (gotta thank the greeks nerfing down Artemis and the like, probably)

Isis has perhaps the most agency of the Egyptian pantheon, for example. And she has no real "dycotomy" with anyone.

We were talking about the nips before. for all the not-really-that-liberated RL women female deities don't really sound chaotic, even if impurity is present as a concept.

>>55385903

Eh, I still have my dobuts. But where does he say that Galadriel is best elf?

>she was to me, but still

>>55384151
kek

>>55385811
>She's not well written or interesting
You did not ask about well written or interesting, you asked about female characters without flaws that were written to appease feminists.

>Unwilling to open up to others because of her over reliance on the self.
Why does she need to open up to someone when she is perfect with everything?

>>55385945
Tolkien's essays published in the Book of Lost tales

>Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.


>These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.
In an author's note connected to this sentence:
>Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

So the professor's ranking of all Elves is Lúthien > Galadriel = Fëanor > everyone else.

>>55384104
Wasn't there a Diskworld series that addressed exactly this?

>>55385903
>(Gandalf as Maia is naturally more powerful than any Child of Iluvatar
luthien and feanor disagree

>>55385629
>this year
>still thinking gamergate was ever anything but a misogynistic circlejerk

>>55385746
>I think it's kinda of hard implication to make. The concept of chaos isn't really that universal.
It really is and really isn't. I mean we are talking about scales that involve literally thousands of cultures and potentially tens of thousands of years, so of course what we are going to say is going to be a heuristic, a proposed pattern or model that is only very LOOSELY accurate, but when you break down mythologies... this is what you are going to find.

The concept of chaos, in the form of being both the birthing place and the source of evil: ambiguous force that counter-ballances order which is stable, but also dangerously totalitarian or stable to a point of being unrecognisable from death, is incredibly common across cultures. Best illustrations are with Tiamat vs. Marduk in Enuma Elish, or the general iconography of Hindu and East-Asian cultures (remember the Taijitu symbol), but you will also find it with aformentioned Egyptian dieties, across slavic and celtic mythologies, the Japanese mythology is INCREDIBLY pronounced in this regard and so on and so forth. It's actually mostly rooted in basic associative concepts that really are quite intuitive.

>>55386255
Fëanor would but his power level is stated to be the same as Galadriel's.

Luthien is not fully an elf.

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>>55384104
In subject of magic users you were already proven wrong.

In terms of wizards, male dominance is a historical fact.
Post DnD wizard is nature philosopher/alchemist with MAGIC.
And in history you needed both formal education and considerable amount of money to be one.
So persons that wizards are based on were males, so wizards are males.

While witches that were females are present in modern view on fantasy.

On the other hand male witches or hedge wizards kind of disappeared form books

>>55386255
Luthien descended from a Maia and Feanor operated on a whole different level in a different age and could do things even the Valar could not

>>55384559
I cannot bear this abuse of the common parenthesis

>>55385466
Women made men to help diversify their bonds... when they were asexual single called organisms. Unless you want to argue that asexual life is some how male?

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>>55384998
>>55385402
>>55385903
>>55385072

>>55386262
>last year
>still drinking the SJW cool aid

>>55386347
>>55386386
point still stands, gandalf's powers were not greater than any child of lluvatar

>>55386262
>Any time whatsoever
>Not realizing that the feminist swill we deal with is the result of review companies moving the goalposts from an argument that wanted their accountability.

>>55386486
Too early to say since we don't know how Luthien and Gandalf (if allowed to use his full power) would compare. Luthien put Morgoth to sleep but he was greatly diminished at that point.


>>55386464

Tolkien basically says below that Bombadil is like the rustic hobbits, and only survives because people like Elrond and Galadriel and Aragorn keep up the good fight. Just because he cares so little about power that the One Ring has no hold over him, doesn't mean that the forces of evil can't overrun him.

>I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were, taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the questions of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless...

>It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war ... the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.

>>55386565
>Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.
it means that he would have no reason to stay.
bombadil and goldberry are clearly valars

>>55386637
>Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive.
Nope.

>>55384104
Being a wizard is much harder than ironing my shirts.

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>>55384104
>Why are almost all the great [insert anything] males while women are almost always making small things in small villages.

Biology

>>55386656
bombadil, which is the human form that the valar took, couldn't survive.
Just like you could kill gandalf, the human body, but not the spirit, Olorin.
We've seen the same with Melian. Once her husband died she couldn't maintain her elf form and couldn't remain on Middle Earth and went back to Valinor.
bombadil is easily more powerful than gandalf and saruman an d of the ents, who are inhabited by ainur.
Which makes him a valar.

>>55384635
In many versions he's also straight up the son of the Devil.

>>55384621
I always laugh at Belgarath hearing complaints about his tower. It's squat, round, and flat, compared with the towers of his brothers. And his reaction is "fuck you, it lets me see the stars and it happens to be high enough that I like it".

And it has a loose step. Because thousands of years ago he was curious about how long it would take to grind a diamond down to nothing if he put it beneath a step and stepped on it every day. And then he forgot it was there and avoided stepping on it, and just went around it instead because he couldn't be bothered fixing it. For approximately five thousand years.

Why? WIZARD.

>>55384588
They abused and broke the laws of hospitality. Which are protected by Zeus. They had it coming.

>>55385889
Reminder that Hollywood is notorious for having communist leanings.

>>55384198
Circe is really nice in the Odyssey. Only later adaptations made her evil. That said it probably isn't a great point that the one good witch of all these was just made evil by male authors.

>>55385746
>Ukemochi is considered impure because of the food.
Forgot to address the rest of the post:
Ukemochi is impure because she pulls stuff out of her body, actually. Which is the ambiguous nature of feminity: stuff that comes out of your body is most often impure (excrements, phlem, menstrual blood etc...) but it's also where LIFE comes from through birth. And that is also a very specifically female thing.

Ukemochi is significant because SHE IS THE BEING THAT BRINGS FOOD STUFF into the world: she creates rice, and vegatable. The ones we eat today are the descendants of what she pulled off from her body, so the act was actually incredibly beneficial to us in the long run. But with that, she also brings taint, and defiles the male perspective (which is what gets her killed in the long run).

>>55387249
>inb4 McCarthy

>>55387273
Not all of his list was accurate, but there were actual communist sympathizers in Hollywood.

It's like how a lot of Spanish artists were communist or anarchists in support of the CNT-FAI in the civil war.

>>55387343
I'm aware, just thought I'd call it preemptively. It's a deflection I always see when you point out progressive biases in media.

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I guess this is obligatory now.

For fuck's sake, it's mid-September. Summer should be already in school for a while.
Or you are telling me the reason why July and August were relatively /pol/-free was because summer was recycling old memes and asking questions answered ages ago?

>>55385773
>Why are almost all the greats in nearly every profession male?
Because
A) historically speaking the idea of a "profession" is generally a MALE FUCKING CONCEPT. Women historically rarely strived for proffesional life, they were instead busy child rearing and home-keeping. Devoting your life to persuing specialization outside of home life is just something men systematically, while it was a rather uncommon or exceptional way of living life for women.
And
B) it has a lot to do with men and women IQ and personality trait distribution. Men and women have different IQ: they are equal in average, but they differ in extreme distribution, with men having considerably more people at both fringes of the normal distribution. That is to say: there are more geniuses and more idiots among men. Women tend to me more average of IQ: it's not really particularly noticeable in majority of population, but it gets really noticeable when it comes to "exceptional" people. The odds of finding an genius level male mathematician, for an example, are dramatically lower than the odds of finding equally talented female.

Of course, this is outweighed by the fact that the same applies to idiots: the odds of finding a really super dumb man are much higher than finding a really fucking dumb woman.

This seems to be partially true even for aptitude tests across the scale, and even in extremes of personality traits (female Big Five tests tend to be more "balanced" than male ones on average).

So if you seek people in extreme fringes of the spectrum, it's almost always likely to see more males there - from crime to exceptional professional capacity.

Furthermore, women HAVE inherently tendencies towards slightly different value systems. There is simply much less women out there who would REALLY continuously value their professional success more than other things, while it is very common among men. It seems to be related to status-focus among males.

>>55387161
I almost forgot how good those books were.

I'm pretty sure they are to blame for my love of redheads

>>55386087
Luthien being the greatest should surprise absolutely nobody. She was, after all, Tolkien's wife.

>>55387475
Polgara is best (girl, Kheldar is best boy) anon, but that might be the /ss/ fetish talking.

>>55384104
>Medea
>Circe
>Cassandra
>morgan le fay
>baba yaga
>morathi
>the everqueen
>lilieath
>jaina proudmore

its like you didnt bother looking in either myth or fantasy

>>55384210
then what's the first M for?

>>55388540
Manliness? Masculine studies? Masturbation?

>>55388540
Magics.

>>55384104
Literarily speaking, I think it's the three faces of adam vs. the three faces of eve.

>>55385764
Well Elevens are all fuccbois so they dont count

>>55386811
No. Melian left after Thingol died of her own free will. A powerful maia with allowance to use its power (power Istari like Gandalf are not allowed to use) , like the Sun and the Moon, were powerful enough to repel attacks from Morgoth. A Valar would not be fazed by Sauron's forces in any capacity. All this is basic knowledge. Bombadil's very survival on the other hand is explicitly dependant on the victory of the West. And Ents are not inhabited by Ainur.

Where did this "Bombadil = Valar" or whatever meme even came from when his existence and the idea behind him has been explained by Tolkien very clearly decades ago?

>>55385855
They do get video games pulled. GTA V, DoAX3 come to mind. Their shrieking got Tentacle Bento kicked off of kickstarter. So yes. Radical Feminist screeches can get media pulled down.

>>55384198
Just like real women.

>>55387462
Summer is a myth perpetuated by newfags who usually qualify as the summerfags they call out, if summerfags actually existed.

>>55387586
>but that might be the /ss/ fetish talking
I'm not into /ss/ per se, but in hindsight Polgara's character is probably the source of my infatuation with kind and classy but somewhat haughty MILFs.

>>55387586
Patrician choice, one of the few female character than I like.
Would waifu before she married the smith.

>>55385663
Does Harry Dresden count (excluding man as a force of nature, not a sorceress)?

>>55384282
Maybe if you are underage retard,

>>55384104
Men have a different brain then women that makes direct magic easier.

Neither is stronger, but men are more suited to directly applying magix

>>55384945
t. a faggot that can't into math or irl magic

>>55384104
Seven Sisters

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>>55384104
Oz didnt even use magic.

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>>55386710

dude
biologically woman were made to take care of house
because this they are weaker than men, but what distinguinshes man from other animals is our capacity to rationalize and step away from our animalistic instincts.

>>55386087

Thanks.

(is Elrond technically a Noldor, tough?)

>>55386464

Come on. Bombadil isn't powerful at all. He's simply too old for this shit.

(seriously, all the "aborginal spirit" thing boils down to that, or at least it's my strong impression. He's so old that he was born before the desires that the Ring uses to make men its slaves. Or he's so much part of the earth that possess and death don't bother him)

>ctrl F
>Iggwilv
>no results

Fuckin' casuals

>>55390152
Elrond has Noldor heritage from his paternal side and Elves belong to their father's house. Like with Galadriel who lacks the typical dark hair of the Noldor because she is actually 1/4 Noldor 1/4 Vanyar 1/2 Teleri.

>>55384194
>Galadriel
>Most powerful magical being besides Sauron

Nope. In the films maybe. The Istari were/are above her.

>>55390312

I guess.

>>55387462
Please actually go to pol and post thinly veiled martial v caster threads.

It would be fucking legendary.

>>55384198
Fun fact: most witches and wizards in traditional myth were originally gods that were painted as evil by missionaries. There are obvious exceptions, but the more you know.

Men were more involved with the arcane/occult once the Renaissance hit. Especially after.
For some reason people keep assuming that magic is associated with women and femininity, while it's a relatively recent faux pax

>>55384194
>>55384998
Galadriel wasn't more powerful than the Ainur/Maiar, she just wasn't.
Either you're biased in favor of the films or just deluded.

>>55384198
Made evil by later Christianization anon.

>>55390380
>Ainur/maiar

Anon did say middle Earth

Not many fucking maiar fucking around middle Earth besides Gandalf, Sauron, and the corrupted balrog

>>55384164
You could say the same of the men.

Hermes Trismegistus, Koschei the Deathless, Merlin, King Solomon, Odin, Gwydion...the list goes on.

>>55390423
well yes, theres plenty of casters of all sorts in mythology/fantasy

>>55390417
>Not many fucking maiar fucking around middle Earth

That's kind of the point, isn't it? They're angelic figures, not a procreating species.

>>55384104
Because long white beard is the source of magic power, women cant have longe white beards hence they cant wield reality dicking powers.

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>>55384104

Old men with beards represent the pinnacle of magic better than women, that's just how it is

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>>55384104

Prenatal testosterone conditions women away from hard archmagic, but they remain interested in care-oriented hedge magic.

Every single time a thread like this pops up the resident women/feminists of /tg/ get riled up.

Sage.

>>55384104
Most husbands don't allow their wives to practice witchcraft. Most wives can't stop their husbands from doing so, and most wizards don't have wives anyways, while daughters tend to be married off before they can get the principles of magic down.

Thus, beardy court wizards, secluded forest witches. It's not to say that witches are less powerful, though perhaps less educated or refined, but they tend to be a different sort of person, and inclined towards a different sort of magic.

>>55390439
Istari in the books were forbidden from using their real powers or any shape other than an old man so in Middle Earth they were limited.
Galadriel's power level compared to other inhabitants of Middle Earth is in the LotR appendices:
>Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.

That being said, "The Ring"-transformation and the Sauron fight in the Jackson prequels was awful even though Galadriel is best girl.

>>55385216
You're an ignorant fucking idiot. If you can't handle an argument on its own merits without shaming it by association, you don't deserve a mouth.

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>>55390537

>>55390543
I'm not sure what you're getting at. You're saying things the majority of us already know.

This entire discussion started because some mong declared Galadriel superior to the Ainur. You can honestly blame Jackson for it.

>>55390574
How Jackson went from a masterpiece such as LotR to the fecal stained Hobbit is beyond me.

>>55390616
Sadly, from what I've heard there was a lot of time pressure involved. It can't all be pinned on Jackson, though some design decisions (Tauriel, that Grima knockoff, mortal kombat style fighting) were a travesty. Still, a lot of that might also be down to external pressure to market to a larger audience, which again is a shame.

Gee, just going by history, if magic existed, men would dominate it by a massive fucking amount.

But it doesn't exist, soooooo...

>>55390616
The Hobbit was made because execs wanted money because New Line was in financial trouble. The whole thing was made to be a cash grab the moment that happened. Which is probably why Del Toro lost directorship.

Because you need a wand to cast magics amiriteboys?

Invokus a gigantus in my pansuuu

>>55384104
Counter point: Rita Repulsa and Maleficent

>>55390417
>Either you're biased in favor of the films or just deluded.

She laid waste to Dol Guldor like it was nobody's business. One would contend about Gandalf, but I dunno, in the end dude was all about words, more than actual "powerful" magic (and besides her words aren't nothing to diss anyway). Lorien was there for millennia because she was there.

And I'm a Galadriel fanboy anyway, so suit yourself. I like how we see just a part of her story, but it's pretty clear anyway - the proudness and the humility. To me she actually WAS the greatest of Noldor, because she came to understand what they did wrong, as we see with Gimli's gift - and we all know the parallels to her story back into the Undying Lands with the hair. I like how she is tempted but stays strong, to me it's even nobler than not being tempted (a thing Elrond, Aragorn and Gandalf didn't pass trough). I like how she clearly loves dearly ME but accepts her fate, still clearly being sad that the Noldor will soon be nothing more than obscure legends.

And Blanchett was honestly a good choice (most of the elves in LOTR weren't really, some good actors but not much of "elvish" faces).

>>55387475
>Eddings book
>good

they're not good in any way, but they're very easy to read and enjoyable, especially for a teen.

>>55390616
From what I've heard, he never really wanted to do Hobbit, or at least he wanted to make it on his own terms, but the studio more or less pressured him into making it now, resulting in half-arsed mess that nobody on the set, the director including, really felt comfortable making to begin with.

The irony is that Jackson was once know for defiling the studio executive types and pushing forward a vision of Tolkien adaptation fueled by (some) level of artistic integrity and respect for the source material.
It gets even more painful when you read Jackson looking back at LOTR few years after it was released (but before he started making Hobbit), and hearing him saying "While I'm proud of what we made, looking back at it, I realize that these aren't really the movies I originally set to make. I wanted to make movies with more poetry, more nature, more subtlety, and a believe the source material still deserves that treatment."

Which gave me hope that maybe, just maybe, that is what Hobbit was supposed to be: that more subtle, more poetic and fairytale-like Tolkien he originally wanted to make with LOTR.

Instead we got... well, I'll be honest. I could not even FINISH the first of the Hobbit movies.

>>55384104
Another question would be why men generally study or train until they're great wizards while women are given magical powers for doing nothing

>>55384104
the patriarchy. it was decreed by the 5th patriarch of the old empires greatest faith that only men could learn from books and only young boys could be personally "tutored" by older men in the ways of magic cause the love between men and women is impure. Only the love between man and boy could truly be free of the base desires that prevent the learning of magic

>>55390819
You can be a Galadriel fanboy, but the hierarchy made by Tolkien stands firm. Ainur are above the Elves.

>She laid waste to Dol Guldor like it was nobody's business
The Ainur (along with the Maiar) were part of the 'Chorus' that sang Creation into existence.

>>55390819
>To me she actually WAS the greatest of Noldor
She was the greatest living, yes. There were greater individuals than herself.

As to the bigger debate; Galadriel was inferior to the Ainur, as is explicit. Tolkien did mention twice that Gandalf would be a match for Sauron.

>>55390651
Women weren't expressed faithfully in areas of education post-renaissance.

>>55390819
>And I'm a Galadriel fanboy anyway
So you're wielding bias as your preferred weapon of choice. That's not good form.

>>55384104
Men > Women

>>55391065

We were talking about ME proper at the end of the Third age.

>>55391099

Nah, to me she actually was the noblest. Surely not the most powerful, but this is what I meant by "greatest".

>>55391138
>>55391138

Actually I was the guy pointing out that Elrond was perhaps more powerful.

Ignore the Galadriel fanboy(fangirl)

>>55391099
>Tolkien did mention twice that Gandalf would be a match for Sauron.

Without the ring? Gandalf himself says Sauron is more powerful.

>>55391163
Elrond wasn't more powerful than Galadriel. I'm not sure how you would even come to this conclusion. He was perhaps the greatest living healer.

I'm of the 'Ainur are superior' crowd, but I will gladly defend Galadriel over Elrond on this.

>>55391191
Without the ring Sauron would have difficulty with Gandalf, yes. Though it's kind of a moot point.

>>55391099
Gandalf would be a match for Sauron only if he took the Ring.


>She was the greatest living, yes. There were greater individuals than herself.
Among Noldor and all Elves of Valinor, Fëanor was the only one who could even equal Galadriel. The only elf ever that was more powerful was Luthien, who was half Maia.

>>55391151
Maybe when it comes to retarded shitposting

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Are we really discussing the notion that elves are somehow the equals of spirits of creation

>>55391235
feanor was the greatest
tolkien himself said
galadriel was second

>>55391165
Not him, but speaking as somebody who always found Galadriel the most interesting and easily my favorite character in the Tolkien universe:
She is awesome as a character, she does not need to be awesome by her superpowers. She is just an interesting being with an interesting story to hell.
On the account of the Hobbit scene: as utterly pointless as that whole plot line was in respect of the rest of the story, I actually did find it fairly well executed and her appearance fitting her character, even if in terms of "powerlevels" of the cannonical lore questionable.
None of that justifies the fact that all of this was part of the fucking HOBBIT story. God damn there is no excuse for that.

>>55391199
Wasn't Elronds whole deal that he was a half-breed and pretty much "inferior" to all of his noble bretheren? I mean he is also a pretty fun character, but I thought he was relatively speaking among the weaker of the "legendary" characters of the lore. And I'm ignoring him in Hobbit (the book this time), where he is just mostly a super kind guy. Then again, elves in Hobbit were more akin to Shakespear's elves than anything that was featured later into the mythos.

>>55391270
The hierarchy set down by Tolkien was thus

dwarves = humans =< elves < ainur < maiar < eru
Of course there were occasional exceptions.

>>55390900
>this
i actually just started a campaing where the overarching theme is that a percentage of women have had access to magic for millenia, but the only way a man could access magic was to be the (bear with me for a second) son of a witch paired with the son of a witch. it takes two generations of male blood before it becomes apparent, and male magic is nothing like female magic. The setting is just bordering on the founding of empires time period, and its the first time that a reasonable number of men have the magic all in one place. The wizard in our group is the apprentice of one of the oldest living wizards and is helping advance/spread the learnings of previous wizards so men can use magic safely. there is quite a bit of intrigue too. while most women are either accepting or glad to see men use magic, there is a small, but vocal faction that oppose it vehemently. Some wizards have already been assasinated over it, and it may come to conflict before long.

>>55391270
No, it's about which elf was the most powerful of course.

A good debate about whether Istari (without accessories like the One Ring) are so limited in their available powers that they could be weaker than some Children of Iluvatar in Middle Earth is possible. Indeed, Saruman's fate shows this was the case.

>>55391287
This is what he actually said, there is no definite ranking of the two:
>Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.


>These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.

>>55391333
Istari were intentionally limited, of course. They were sent to inspire, not to show off.

>>55390574
Except that's not what he said at all, he said Galadriel was the most powerful figure on middle Earth short of Sauron, which is nearly correct - Gandalf being the exception because he's a Maiar

>>55391359
There were a little under a dozen confirmed Maiar in Middle-Earth by the time of the Third Age.

Because the root of "wizard" is "wise", and you need a very large beard to be wise. This is why bald-faced men also make poor wizards.

>>55391399
And only Gandalf had the authority to go around using his powers

>>55391412
...Wrong?

>>55391412
The other wizards had the authority. The Balrog didn't give a shit. Sauron was Sauron.

>>55391199

The Rings bit. Not conclusive, most certainly, but still.

No one talked about the Ainur. Hell, I wouldn't expect the Witch of the Golden Wood* to be "more powerful" than Melian, as for the Maiar themselves (but yeah, Gandalf to me is pretty clearly lower level.).

*=I always pictured her as laughing sadly at the idea the Rohirrim ALREADY forgot her and her people. You know what, I think in its own way it's one of saddest parts of the books - think about that, not even Morgoth and Sauron could do that, but the world already forgot them. While Lorien was still there.
On par with the Ents, who did nothing wrong but are fucked.

>>55391399

Wait, what?

>>55391482
>Gandalf to me is pretty clearly lower level

He was the strongest of the Istari. He was also dumbed down by decree of his mission.

>>55391458
None of the wizards had the authority to go with their full powers, otherwise they could have led armies against Sauron and zapped people. Gandalf the White had the most, but none of them had enough to confront Sauron in force. Saruman before his staff was broken had to play subservient to the Ringwraiths when they rode by asking questions.

>>55391504
Gandalf the White didn't have full authority. He was brought back to inspire, not to be a crutch.

Interesting thread derailed by Tolkienfags.

>>55391498

I was under this impression too (pretty sure it's said that they need to work in secrecy, without getting power over people or something like that) but honestly I can't remember where it's said that he was "more powerful" in Aman.

>in general Maiar are surprinsgly humanlike. Or elflike, to be more precise.

In the end I'd say that what Saruman did is more or less the full extent of the Istari's powers. Minus perhaps some more flashy spells, but not exactly Rina Inverse's Dragon Slave.

>>55391588
No, the Maiar took on old human forms as per their code of conduct. They were of a more beautiful and fair visage back in the West. Their physical forms are, for all intents and purposes, mortal-like, akin to man and elvenkind.

Unlike the films, Saruman's dislike of Gandalf in the novels stems from his jealousy, an inferiority complex. Galadriel originally wanted Gandalf (Olorin) to lead the Istari.

It's fairly evident (if rather inconclusive) that the Istari were limited in application.

>>55391588
The Wizards never, not once, demonstrated their full capability in Middle-Earth. Lest they dominate the wills of its free-peoples.

Sauron *might* have been the exception, but even that is debateable.

>>55390346
I kinda want to do this now...

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>>55391526
>>55391504
OK, would you indulge a clueless person for a few seconds? As somebody who LOVES LOTR and Hobbit, but always viewed them as "just" literature and never studied too much about the lore and universe, plus having them read a long time ago, this is what I always assumed about Gandalf.

I know that Gandalf is supposed to be Maiar, and that Maiars were the spirits that literally helped to create the universe.

That said, I always assumed that the relationship between them was more of a symbolic one. That maybe Gandalf is guided by Mainar because he was chosen by him or something: not that they are literally the same being, the same consciousness and power.

Because looking back at Gandalf, it's pretty difficult to reconcile creature capable of creating universe and him being flawed, grumpy old wise dude.
That Gandalf whose magic was mostly fireworks, that Gandalf that got himself trapped by Orks in the misty mountains, that Gandalf whose best solution for being surrounded by orks was to light pine cones on fire and hurl them at the warrgs, that Gandalf who could not figure out the riddle at the gates of Moria, then got lost, and then fell in a fight with a single Balrog:
That Gandalf seems incongruous with the Maiar, one of the (seven) pillars of creation of universe.

I always though that he was more on the side of being a mortal man who just happend to be chosen as a representative of the maiar in some symbolic fashion, or maybe as a part of some cycles or reincarnation or something.

It's just that grumpy, humane, flawed person with actually extremely resctrictive powers (many of which are just tricks, pyrotechnics etc.), a man who repeatedly fails and constantly doubts himself, that very strongly humane character being the second most powerful being on the divine scale just does not fit well with me.
I assumed that he was someone who is being manipulated or nudged by the maiar, not being maiar.
Am I completely wrong here?

>>55391789
pretty much.

>>55391641
>>55391588
Istari were sent to Middle Earth with certain restrictions Maiar do not naturally have: they were not allowed force to match Sauron or to dominate the peoples of the Middle-Earth (so no beating kings and taking over their realms). Plus their bodies were vulnerable as Saruman's fate demonstrates. They were mainly an inspirational force. Gandalf the White was sent back by Eru who may have lifted some of the restrictions which were placed by Valar.

That exception aside, things like Ringwraiths and powerful Elves could have plausibly overmatched Istari in power. Gandalf the Grey was actually cornered by the Ringwraiths at one point during his travels and had a spellcasting battle with them but managed to flee.

>>55391789
....*sigh*

No. Gandalf is an Ainur(Maiar) sent to Middle-Earth in the guise of a wise old man, a la Odin.
He, and the others, were sent to 'inspire' the free-peoples, not to win their battles for them.

Powerful yes, but limited, as per his command. That's all this is.

>>55391789
You only watched the movies, clearly.

Gandalf and the Balrog are of the same species. Both are Maiar. So too, is Sauron.

>>55391677

I take you meant Saruman.
I agree, this is why I think Galadriel was more OP. Debatable, certainly, it's argumentum ex silentio, but honestly I would think Gandalf as it is presented IS supposed to have done whatever he could and whatever tought was best - which would mean he's the face more the diplomat than the wizard, amusingly enough.

>>55391641

That was the White Council. Saruman was the leader of the Istari by default.

It's funny to think Noldor meddling perhaps fucked up this as well, if you assume Saruman's fall started from that...

>you had ONE JOB Galadriel, ONE FUCKING JOB

>>55391789

I... actually like this idea. But I think it's not canonical, and besides, Melian, the only other Maia that does something in the legendarium, wasn't really that efficient either (she foresaw the doom of Doriath but couldn't do shit).
And she had no "my body is frail so I can fuck shit up" excuse, so to speak.

>>55391819

I think we agree.

>>55391789
Gandalf was a *lot* weaker in the movies than the novels. Galadriel was also more powerful in the movies than the novels.

For reasons.

>>55391877
>I agree, this is why I think Galadriel was more OP

You're still going on about this? She wasn't. It's like being a canon(Gandalf) against a pistol(Galadriel), only the canon refuses to do anything and just whack people with its base instead.

>>55391886

I don't recall anything worth of mention Gandalf did in the books that he didn't in the movies, beside possibly having breakfast with Pippin in Minas Tirith or something

Will you Tolkienfags please leave?

>>55391910

My argument is actually about Saruman who certainly didn't feel bound by any Aman's convention at the end.

Creating the Uruk-hai is no small feat, but still.

>>55391945
That's not an argument at all. Saruman was bound by his form, not anything else.

They're not old men in their truest form.

>>55391886
Let's be honest, the only thing Galadriel did in the movies she couldn't have according to books was the banishment of Sauron (in the books, a White Council team effort). Gandalf the Grey was also the right power level, Gandalf the White lost to the Witch-King which shouldn't have happened.

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>>55391789
The easiest way to think of Gandalf is that he's an angel in human form. It's debatable how much being in human form makes him behave more like a human or whether that's just how angels behave. Sauron is a fallen angel.

But yes, he was literally there at the creation of the universe but probably not in physical form and certainly not in human form.

>>55391258
That. and everything else.

>>55391838
That seems to contradict >>55391816 and also, honestly, takes away a LOT of the allure and complexity of the character.

I'm not saying that you are wrong. I really don't have the option to judge who is right or wrong here.

>>55391851
Actually, no. Only watched LOTR, eventually, begrudingly and while I did kinda enjoy them in the end, I consider them irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I was really only talking about the books, which I read extensively. Though I did read them as stories, rather than as pieces of world-building.

>>55391877
>I... actually like this idea.
Well, yeah. That is actually why I'm asking. I like him this way much more, I think it makes him more compelling as a character, and fits more with what he does in the books too. But that is precisely the issue: me liking it already makes me suspicious if it's the real thing, and not something I projected because it has bigger aesthetical appeal to me.

I already did this once: I actually convinced myself (or more precisely my father did) that the elves travel to Grey Heavens to DIE. Not ascend or reach a magical better land... just to flat out die, because they can't bear their immortality for ever.
Which to me was an incredibly powerful and sad and beautiful image, yet eventually I was informed that it's just my wishful thinking.

>>55391886
Not really. Well, I don't remember the movies all that well, but in the books he was definitely not a powerful being. He defeated the trolls by impersonating them for heaven's sake, keeping up the damn ruse up till the morning.

He fires one lightening in the case, then throws some explosives into the fire in front of the Goblin king, and then lights up cones with fire in Hobbit.
In Moria, he summons light from his wand and crushes the bridge of Khazad-Dun and that is it.
He is wise as fuck, but he relies on his human-like ingenuity, and he consistently wonders, fucks up, doubts, fights his own age etc...

The Istari are/were 'trapped' in mortal 'shells'

I'm not sure why this idiot is arguing in favor of Galadriel.
She's an amazing character, but you're giving her too much credit.

Gandalf would be more powerful in every form he has ever taken.
As a pure Maiar spirit, Tolkien put (or at least toyed with the idea of putting) Gandalf's power level at the same as Sauron's (also as a spirit). "To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf." (Unfinished Tales 395).
As Gandalf the Grey, even Cirdan recognized Gandalf as mighty. "from their first meeting at the Grey Havens [Cirdan] divined in [Gandalf] the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.", Unfinished Tales, The Istari (called by C. Tolkien, "essay on the Istari"). Gandalf the Grey also defeated a Balrog, something which only the greatest of the elves managed to do (and they too perished). As Gandalf the White, he returned as unfettered (or nearly) as he was in his spirit form.
Tolkien also stated multiple times that Gandalf the Grey was stronger than Saruman, and that even Saruman himself recognized this fact (that was part of the reason he was so jealous).

Not to mention the fact that he took part in the creation of the universe.

cont.

>>55392057
Galadriel on the other hand managed great feats with her ring, Nenya, such as preserving Lothlorien. This was only with the ring though, as when Sauron was defeated the three lost their power and Lothlorien faded. The three rings were not an aid in combat though. And even with it she would not have matched Gandalf.
During the events of the Lord of the Rings she was considered the most powerful of the Eldar that remained in Middle Earth. This is only after the death of great heroes such as Gil-galad (who was slain by Sauron) and Glorfindel (who himself defeated a balrog, though he also died in the process). As Gandalf the Grey, Gandalf matched the feat of Glorfindel (in the body of an old man, not an elf, at that). As Gandalf the White, he was the most dangerous force on Middle Earth, except Sauron.
The only way that Galadriel could possibly become more powerful than Gandalf is if she had taken the ring of power, which had Maia strength in it. Even then, she might not have been able to match Gandalf as Olorin's power. Peter Jackson greatly underestimates Gandalf's power, showing even the Witch King giving him trouble.
*Edit: Towards the end of letter 246 Tolkien states that Gandalf is the only person on Middle Earth who could hope to wrestle the ring of power from Sauron, it's rightful owner, by force. He goes on to say that Galadriel, Cirdan, or "especially Elrond" (I think this is interesting, as he seemed to imply that Elrond was the strongest out of the three), might have defeated Sauron with the ring if they were given the opportunity to raise an army first. But in one on one combat, only Gandalf MIGHT prevail.
This gives evidence that Gandalf was irrefutably stronger than Galadriel at least when it came to power in the strait forward sense.

>>55391317
where are the hobbits and ents in this?

>>55392069
Letter 246 more precisely says that Galadriel considered herself capable of wielding the One Ring, and if that was so, then the other wielders of the three could too (especially Elrond). This just implies that Cirdan is the weakest, not that Elrond is the strongest.

>>55391962

But you see anon, even if we assume Istari were greater in Aman (a thing that I can't recall in the books, I might be wrong but no cite here) we were talking about ME's beings. In their state there, they didn't do nothing especially flashy.

>>55391998

I can only say that I can't remember anything like Gandalf (and why the hell not, Saruman) being basically hedge wizards with a seraphim for a familiar. I do like the concept, but I'm pretty sure canonically they just came here and assumed men's forms.

(the dying in Aman thing is interesting, but honestly I think in Aman elves aren't all that perfectly happy forever after. I think they do lose their agency, and that is why the Noldor fought with all their might to seek a way of remaining in ME.)

>Gandalf vs Galadriel

Gandalf wins

>>55386511
>>55386466
>being concerned about accountability
>only sperging out when a woman did something objectionable in the mid 2010s instead of during 2000s when IGN was really going to shit
>omitting that Gamergate used to be called "The Quinnspiracy"
>not a circlejerk predicated on 'womyns in muh videojames r baadd!!1one"
hmm
really makes you think

>>55392193
Well, once again my aesthetic sensibilites are too good for this world, it seems... Thanks for indulding me though. Cheers.

>>55386710
Go to bed, Christian, and quit with this Varg shit. And stop posting on a mongolian eagle hunting board.

magic is assosicated with women not men

>>55392069

But the Witch-King GAVE him trouble.

All save one. There waiting, silent and stil
l in the space before th
e Gate, sat Gandalf upon
Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free hor
ses of the earth endure
d the terror, unmoving,
steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen.
'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss
prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'
The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head
visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a
mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now
and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.
Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a
cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the
morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.
And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark
Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at
last.

Basically he was there to do a last stand, but the Rohirrim came.

Also, be warned that the Silmarillion is not really canonical (the elvish divisions were pretty different when he wrote them AFTER LOTR - Illuvatar knows what he'd have actually published, but certainly the HOME version is "more canonical" in this regard).
The only canonical thing we learn about the Istari is the Appendices and here the Istari don't really have a birthdate, just when and why they came to ME.

>>55392295
patently wrong, across all cultures. It's just that male and female magic tend to take very different forms and meanings.

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>>55384198
in this day and age evil woman in media is what sells isn't it? for the mainstream that is, the whole "bad bitch" persona. really its evil characters in general that tend to be just as memorable and liked by audiences.

>>55392304
Damn... I have to re-read LOTR again, this time in english.
Fuck people who say Tolkien does not know how to write. Or that his text are over bloated and over-expositionally.

This shit is good text.

>>55392304
That wasn't the "trouble" showcased in the films. You fail to see that. Why argue when you know I'm right?
What could have been a cool statement instigating hope and despair, just wasn't. The Witch-King never 'matched' Gandalf.

it's also ironic, that "old fool" remark. The Witch-King is hardly young.

>>55392304
>>55392304

Also, Lorien didn't "fade" the instant Galadriel took the Last Ship. Arwen goes there after Aragorn dies, to die herself there, and while is deserted, it's still there.

And most certainly her powers (with or without her ring) stood after the One was destroyed, she nuked Dol Guldor from orbit.

>>55392369
>she nuked Dol Guldor from orbit
>from orbit

le exaggerating summerfag

>>55384588
>constantly cheats on his wife
false. Only fucked Circe, a literal demi-goddess who used magic potions to force him to love her. It's kinda a cop-out, but Odysseus is essentially ruffie'd by a goddess, so he didn't cheat.
>gets all his men killed
again, not his fault that a literal God, Poseidon got ass-hurt for no good reason and cursed them.
>murders his wife's suitors for no good reason.
A bunch of faggots trying to steal your throne, your wife, eat all your food, pillaging your land, and conspire to murder your son isn't a good enough reason to kill anymore? wtf?

>>55392304
JRR is the source of canon, if his later writings (whether essays or something published in Silmarillion) contradict the older ones they're generally considered canon.

For example Galadriel's story and importance within world history was under constant rewrites, he changed it even the year before he died.

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>They think Galadriel is more powerful than Gandalf

>>55392369
The Three only had the powers of preservation, not destruction. Any offensive magic was Galadriel's own, we also see Luthien use it in her story.

>>55384346
Shit I remember that splat book, something about blue wizards using spells to jerk off hands free so they could study more. I forget the name!

Also wizards have towers as symbols of their dick might. The bigger the better.

>>55392361
Witch-King is about 5000 years, Gandalf's mortal form is younger but WK knows he is really older than the world.

>>55392361

The Witch-king is clearly nonplussed here. He thinks that Gandalf is no match for him.
I'd think while proud and whatever he did have some experience with magical beings, and the prophecy didn't actually plot-armor him from having his ass kicked, so...

I don't remember exactly what went on the movies, I'm just stating that yep, Gandalf HAD "trouble" with him.

>>55392397

Pfffft. So I can use the Lost Tales to talk about mermaids as canonical? Or older versions of (parts of) The Hobbit to imply China is part of Third Age ME? Come on, dude. Published wins, and if anything unwritten AFTER the books wins regarding not-technically-canonical.

Thread ruined by a single feminist tolkienfag

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>>55384104

In my campaigns women have an 'edge' with magic over men. Folklore depicted women as the better magic-users, and I tend to prefer realism.

Before you accuse me of being a feminist, I will say that I am, in fact, a white male feminist. Magic is a feminine aspect, not masculine.

>>55392304

I don't know how you got last stand from that. Stands up to him and tells him to fuck off. He handled how many Nazgul as Grey, and stood against them again when saving Faramir.

>>55385791

You never had christianity to villify all magic as evil and make it highly feminine for the excuse of publicly stripping and killing women who get uppity?

pathetic.

>>55392470
Newer writings supercede the old. If Tolkien wrote something that contradicted Hobbit or Lord of the Rings after their publication then that was canon and it's treated as canon by the IP holder (Tolkien Estate) and by sane fans.

>>55392470
>The Witch-king is clearly nonplussed here

Yeah he's so fucking strong he jobs 5 minutes later to a hobbit and strong single shieldmaiden.

Plus servants of Sauron never talk big, hey here's some hobbits clothes that we killed.

>>55392508
Reminder that Gandalf the Grey's handling of Nazgul ended up with him fleeing. Istari are limited and beatable by non-Maiar. Only when he's White does he say that he's the baddest thing around unless Sauron comes personally to duke it out.

>>55385601
>Most deities of magic are female
No, you're flat-out wrong on that. It's an even mix.
>Odin isn't a god of magic
Wrong again.
>he learned magic, he didn't just HAVE it
Seidr, yes. He also surpassed his own teacher, Freja.
>Most sorcerous power is kept by women rather than men
>only after a culture is 'civilized' do men step up in the magical world
Women practice 'low' hedge magic
Men pursue 'high' ritualistic magic
>Even Solomon was undone by a witch..
Ummm, no?

>>55392440
Libram of carnal knowledge. Had spells like Bigbys jerking hand, Enhanced magic mouth, how to make vagina golems and summon a succubus.

>>55392508
Gandalf himself says he's not sure if he can beat the Witch-King.

>>55392580
No. It was Sauron. Not the Witch-King.

>>55386419

I honestly can't follow what you're saying.

>>55392505
You're a fucking tool.

>>55392525

Oh, we didn't need magic for that. Women were always in a subordinate role anyway.

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The amount of feminists in this thread is hilarious.

Yes, going from fiction and history alone, men make the better magicians.

>>55392508

Actually, he stays silent. The Witch-king ready to burn Minas Tirith to the ground is no run-from-the-mill Nazgul.

At the most I'd think WK was ready to be kicked in his butt but either he'd return or guess after that Gandalf would be tired and beaten enough that his army would do the trick - and that's assuming a realtively fairplayer WK, amusingly enough.

>>55392472

The feminist would be me, but big surprise, I think Elrond was her equal or at least almost indistinguishable. Personally I tend to think she was more powerful in a raw sense (visions, the laydown of Dol Guldor) but one could say that Elrond's diplomacy was basically a miracle.

>>55392535

Evidetnly the prophecy does work with Gandalf man-form. I tend to think Gandalf knew that, if not why standing there like literally an old fool?

>>55392595
Gandalf the White never considered the possibility of beating Sauron (unless with the ring). Elendil's family and Gil-Galad beat him so maybe if it wasn't for a million orcs the White Council should have just gotten together and kicked his ass (he didn't have the Ring).

>>55384104
Women used to be considered mages until science discovered pheromones. Now we know they are just sluts. Thanks higher education.

>>55392663
I honestly have no problem with you. Just your ludicrous notion that Galadriel, an Eldar, would be a match for Gandalf, a Maiar, a spirit of creation.

Though I'd still favor Galadriel over Elrond, personally. I might just be a bit biased regarding her, though.

>>55392663
According to Tolkien Galadriel's equal among elves is Fëanor, would you consider Elrond on par with him? The Three Rings are products of Celebrimbor (alone and without Sauron's help) who is a 2nd rate Fëanor. They don't make their bearers that much stronger, just help to motivate and preserve.

>most deities of magic are women.
LET'S COMPARE SHALL WE

Women
>Freyja
>Hecate
>Isis
Men
>Hermes
>Thoth
>Odin
>Enki
>Heka
>Trismegistus
>Gwydion

Yeaaahhhhhhh

>>55392697

I never talked about "matches". I don't see Galadriel as warlike (Elrond even less, actually). It's jus that I don't buy the Maiar=powerful as fuck shit, as much as we see them. Maybe the Istari just have a metric fuckton of lore and Persuasion skills, waddayaknow.

>>55392730

I'd guess.

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Number of posts until Granny Weatherwax: too goddamn many.

I ATEN'T DEAD!

>>55392799
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Magic_gods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Magic_goddesses

they're about the same to be honest.

though the lists do not distinguish between "deities of magic", like hecate or odin, and "deities who know magic but weren't worshipped in that aspect", like vainamoinen.

>>55384104

Okay, let's get Doyalist.

Giving women magic was a great way to give a female character power in a story. However, due to the fact that most protagonists were men and most stories were about knights and kings and shit, you never really saw a 'Princess Badass', let alone a 'Princess Badass' smacking the shit out of The 'Magic Empress of Gravehorror'.

There's some stuff playing into that, like how a lot of polytheistic religions gave magic to women due to shit like childbirth and the fact that men pretty much had physical strength already nailed down (so saying we have a goddess of muscles and leg day is incredibly stupid) set up the eventual demonisation (geddit) of women when christianity came along and said "We told you in fucking rome we were going to kill all of you you multiculturalist retards, why didn't you stop us?" (also, maybe some stories were rewritten because christians had a habit of making anyone they didn't like into assholes)

But basically magic was bad because Christians said only god could do it, and most magic users were women, who were also bad because as soon as Jesus died all that love and tolerance got flung the fuck out for rape and pillaging others. (Seriously, they fucking warned you. Their holy book was literally a promise to do what /pol/ thinks muslims are doing to europe right now)

After a while, you got a few more magic users, but this time they were guys and they didn't have a trove of evil queens, seductresses and devil fucking cannibal whores out in the woods of Prussia to build from. They had support from Kings and shit. Helga the Hag can't have a tower with a library next to the castle, they'd burn that shit down and probably kill every woman in town to make sure they get her. Eadryc the wise? Yeah sure. btw here's a quest to find and kill Helga the Hag.

tl;dr Witches are usually rebels and maniacs trying to destroy the world, Wizards are usually accepted by Kings and other Authorities, so don't have to hide.

>>55392263
Wait, you think GamerGate didn't target IGN and their pay to play review system?

Please hold while I laugh at you.

>>55386262
We just wanted our industry back from a bunch of self serving hacks. The entire indie game dev scene is in bed (sometimes literally) with their reporters, conducting shady, back-door business deals to promote each other either for favors, sexual or otherwise, or under the command of a larger corporation that owns both the person being written about, the person who is doing the writing and the award show in which the former wins, justified by the writings of the latter.

>>55393026

Damn straight.

>>55391982
No just shitposting and acting like retards.

>>55392612

Yeah but Christianity gets bonus points because it literally started out as an SJW movement in comparison with the other religions.

But what happened was that as soon as Jesus kicked the bucket they kicked out all the SJW bits, brought back the Endemic Warfare and sexism and kept the whole "convert or we'll fucking kill you" stuff.

no christianfag is going to heaven ever XDDDDD

>>55392689
Now that you posted we know you are just a retard without higher education.

>>55392957

Most people who actually cared about ethics backed the fuck out harder than that one guy who stripped off his polo shirt crying he wasn't a nazi at charlotteville as soon as i was clear most of the GG incels were just mad at cooties and being permavirgins

>>55390616
Well it was del Torros first. By the time Jackson took over he had to start from scratch with what was left of the schedule.
Blame New Line for sacking del Torro

>>55388656

>DoAX3

There was no petition or shrieking about DoAX3; the first two titles sold remarkably poorly outside of Japan, so they just didn't bother. The only shrieking petition about DoAX3 was one arguing FOR its release.

>Tentacle Bento

Literal soft-core rape porn. Like... unambiguously. The game doesn't even pretend to be anything else. Is getting removed from Kickstarter a bit extreme? Maybe. I dunno. I'm not Kickstarter, so it's not my call.

I'll cede that GTAV got pulled from certain stores in Australia, but I'll also point out that Australia has kind of batshit politics to begin with, and their whole battle-of-the-sexes thing is a lot more... vibrant, shall we say, than it is other places.

Does it really matter which gender is better at magic?

>>55384151
Underrated

>>55385791
Could you talk about it? I'm curious.

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>>55392921

To be fair without not!Christianity/Islam, in fantasy there is no reason why wizards should be the big dudes. Or the only dudes.

Hell, just go and say the witches' bloodlines are the qualifications for nobility (males are nobility too, but they're soldiers/administrators, kinda... not second rate but expendable).
There are also wizards as well, amusingly enought they come from the ranks of the common people - hard study/random talent and all that might make a small merchant's son become a wizard.

While witches are the real fiery stuff of legends, at least pureblood ones, wizards are getting pretty good at their scientific-ritual approach.

It's cheap, but at least it's relatively original, manages to have Bene Gesserit sheaningans, "liberated" women, a different take on nobility and (dare I say it) matriarchy (they're not any nicer than RL nobility was), witches/wizards/clerics/monks clearly differentiated and pimped out witches' robes.

>>55391099
By the 3rd book Gandalf wasnt sure if he would be a match for the witch king

>>55384104
Because most fantasy authors are men?

How the fuck are you so dumb as to need to ask this question?

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>>55390873
>not good in any way
>easy to read and enjoyable

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>>55385216
>you kind of automatically lose the argument

>>55393280
>Bene Gesserit sheaningans

You mean the order of psychic witches trying to create a more powerful male version of themselves? lel

>>55393280
I fail to see why women should be better than men at magic. It's an annoying trope supported by idiots who constantly misinterpret mythology and folklore.

>>55384151
Lost my sides to this.

>>55390346
So who's more powerful Chad Martial or Betacuck wizards.

>>55393302

People will bitch about this but honestly it probably has a grain of truth. In the Mists of Avalon the great order of wiseman is a great order of wisewomen (or was it both? Whatever).

As the great order of wisesomeones is clearly second half 20th century shit, it's probably telling.

>>55393352

I meant the "let's see who is gonna be the next badass witch, if we can have X and Y fuck...".

Actually not that much Bene Gesserit-like if they do it not secretively at all, but still.

>>55393372
>>55393372

Actually I envision wizards here as pretty good. It's just an idea to subvert the hedge witch living innawoods without a decent toilet, not something particulary tought-off.

>>55385773
Because for the past ten-thousand years tribes have needed to pump out as many babies as possible to stay strong and relevant. So the job of having-more-babies has been the primary occupation of most women for most of human history. It's pretty hard to take care of a shitload of kids, while still carrying a kid and do other jobs as well.
So men took over most other work. Because they did most work they figured they should make the rules. The rule of women-should-only-worry-about-babies has been a popular one since it ensure you get to be the tribe with most people.
So every profession for most of history is naturally only going to be occupied by men meaning most greats are going to be men.


However with the advent of advanced medicine, infant mortality has dropped and life expectancy has increased. Therefore we don't need to make as many babies since fewer of them die and the ones that live will last a lot longer.
Industrialisation has made have loads of people as important. So much work is automated, the work that is manned is aided by machines and multiplies the individual worker. Having shitloads of people usually means you can't find jobs for them and they wind up as poor, angry troublemakers.
The job of babymaker has become less relevant in developed countries so we let chicks do other things.

>>55384104
You have to be sort of autistic to be a good wizard and their are far more autistic men.

>>55392263
Well yeah, it wasnt called GamerGate until games media doubled down and decided to collaborate a "gamers are dead" campaign.

>>55392577
You're the man. I remember a prestige class in there, cosmic pimp. Added one of those into my first game.

>>55384588
See >>55384570
Ulysses is an Odysseus for Romans much like what OMD-Spidey is a Peter Parker for Joe Quesada.

>>55384104
Wasn't Galadriel canonically at least as powerful as Gandalf?

>>55393857
>Wasn't Galadriel canonically at least as powerful as Gandalf?
This whole thread was derailed because a feminist thought this.

The answer is no. At least not in the novels.

>>55384104
>old man robed in regal attire sporting a magnificent beard and badass magical staff living in a majestic spire of arcane glory
>gnarly old hunched crone living in the middle of a swamp in nowhere land. probably eats children and sacrificed animals for reasons.

Which one better represents the pinnacle of magic?

>>55393871
Does Gandalf even count as a dude? If he's an angel he doesn't have a dick right? At least Tolkien elves had genitalia, or was that a movie-only thing too? Fuck tax policy, these are the questions that are important.

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>>55393929

But anon, witches are cuter.

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>>55384298
He's not wrong.
It's why Male actors are so rememberable, or why male Comedians are better. Why do you think when you ask a single girl what she wants in a man, the first couple of answers she gives is "I want him to be funny" this is because women aren't funny, and they want that void to be filled.

It's seriously science. Their brains think/feel differently then males.

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>>55393999

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>>55393978
Cuter? Yes. Grander? Nah.

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>>55394045
Uh, Antonidas' accomplishments include sending Jaina to investigate the plague, failing to protect Lordaeron and then getting stabbed to death by Arthas.

You could make an argument for pic related instead, but... well, you know.

>>55394170
Posted him as a demonstration of how wizards naturally look 'cooler' than witches, but ok I'll bite.

>sending Jaina to investigate the plague
Not unwise. She was a prodigy.
>failing to protect Lordaeron
Pretty much everyone failed
>stabbed to death by Arthas
It was never shown how he 'died', even in the 'Arthas' novel. The game just showed him falling off a horse dead.

The man joined the Kirin Tor at the age of 12. He was the biggest prodigy in the canon.

>>55384151
Ahahaha

Don't bother reading the rest of the thread, best post right here.

Ask Discworld

Wizards build towers. Witches build cottages. Both try their best not to abuse magic to fuck apart reality. Wizards can be female and witches can be male, but hundreds or thousands of years ago the traditions started up and they stuck.

The Night Angel books mentioned something similar. The idea was that a man from Khalidor might be a natural healing magus, but because of Khalidor's culture he'd be trained in Vir instead. One character is discovered to be a natural 'battle maja' but was trained in concealment magic instead.

tl;dr because female mages are usually depicted as more subtle and less inclined to tower building and dick waving.

Morgan Le Fay begs to differ, but whatever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_le_Fay

>>55395074
But Merlin is better than Morgan le Fay

>>55394310
If you are smelly faggot

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