I cannot find a cyberpunk ruleset that satisfies me

>>55332007
What do you want out of the system?

>>55332007
You can just use the Sprawl classes as starting packs and then let the player pick whatever new abilities he wants. I feel the archetypes are broad enough to support it.

Anyway, try something generic like Savage Worlds (has Interface Zero) or FATE/FAE (I think it also has Interface Zero, if not, Atomic Robo) maybe?

>>55332159

I want something simple and not necessarily combat focused, Should have pointed that one out already but I won't use SW because it's a bit too combat focused.

I want to try to make something else but a bunch of edgy mercenaries running in black trench-coats with twin katanas and sunglasses at night.

>>55332202
>not combat focused
>mercenaries with twin katanas

>>55332202
Okay, FATE/FAE then.

Maybe even RISUS. I mean, if you are just playing archetypes, may as well.

>>55332211
Kinda silly how good that works in SW.

>>55332007
GURPS isn't bloated and character creation is fast and relatively easy. Sounds like you believe the meme rather then do the study for yourself.

If you don't like class based games it's damn near the only choice outside of shadowrun.

>>55332202
>>55332211
>>55332229
>>55332237
Jesus those digits.
If you're looking for something rules light and not overly combat heavy, the only other thing I can think of is Technoir.

>>55332237

Without using a software it took my an hour and a half to make a single character in Gurps, not to mention that Gurps uses inches and foots instead of the fucking international metric system.

>>55332283
Unsurprisingly, when you get used to them a bit, some things do get easier and get done faster.

>>55332325
There are systems out there that let you do things easy and fast from scratch, and are as effective at this as GURPS. Just sayin'.

>>55332404

Which ones?

>>55332263

Doesn't Technoir have an issue with exploding dice pools?

>>55332007

Have you tried Shadowrun : Anarchy ?

>>55332529
Anarchy doesn't do enough to streamline the things that need streamlining, but removes a lot of cool player options, so imo, it's not really a good product... I'm not sure who it's for, the upsides compared to normal SR are very minor.

Have you looked at Blades in the Dark? There's a cyberpunk hack for it.

>>55332666

Blades in the Dark being heavily inspired by Powered by the Apocalypse, I wouldn't probably like this system for the same reasons

Corporation? Sort of a "professional" take on the cyberpunk style.

>>55332007
>>55332529

I second Shadowrun: Anarchy. My group really wanted to play SR but were intimidated by the rules and Anarchy was perfect for getting us a foot in the door. There is also a conversion guide for your characters going from 5th to Anarchy or Anarchy to 5th incase you wanted to upgrade to the full game.

>>55332721
Corporation's setting is kinda crazy and silly, which might turn off some people. Also has ayys and veers pretty hard into soft sci-fi.

>>55332432
Savage Worlds, for a start.

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>>55332960
I prefer Savage Worlds lite. That's where you just play pretend with no rules.

>>55332283

You used too many options, set your point total too high, or struggled with the book. I'm getting you are English as a second language and might have had some trouble with it.

It gets much easier. The same stuff that makes your first character take longer makes GURPS great, namely having a huge amount of freedom.

>>55332007
The Cypher System could be what you are looking for, simple enough ruleset and tons of archetypes to choose from.
Some magic shit here and there but can be easily avoided/banned if you really don't like it.

>>55332007
>Shadowrun : Insanely bloated ruleset, plus I don't like fantasy

It's far worse than that. One of the worst systems I've ever played.

>>55332007
>>55332007
Try Zaibatsu, you fucking chiphead!

http://www.angelfire.com/games3/errantknight/zaibatsu/

Otherwise, Cyberpunk 2020 is pretty good (apart of netrunning) once you get rid of classes (requires to tweak a couple of skills). You also didn't mention Interface Zero which seems to be well-liked.

>>55332263
>digits
>only one is a get

>>55332007
Anon, try Shadowrun Anarchy. It's more narrative focused, and stuff like magic or cyber implants are more just bonuses to doing stuff or the ability to do something unique narratively. It's meant to be rules light. I feel like even the fantasy races would be easy to leave out of it. I almost picked up a copy at my FLGS but I wanted the Cypher Core Book instead (which might also suit your needs, coincidentally).

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Bumpin this for cyberpunk game suggestions

Also I'd love to know if anyone played FFG's star wars RPG system (Edge of Empire?) and can comment on how it is, seeing as a genericsised version is being used for their general-purpose RPG (Genesys), and that that is having an Android sourcebook for cyberpunk roleplaying

>>55332666
What was the name of Shadowrunning Blades hack again?

>>55336262

I've run a couple campaigns using Edge of the Empire. I'll run through some thoughts which you may find helpful.

>The dice.
Learn to love them or you'll learn to hate them; inarguably one of the biggest and hardest sells of the system. When a player rolls, you have two metrics-- the first (Success/Failure) is whether they Did The Thing and the second (Advantage/Threat) is whether their context is Helpful or Unhelpful to them. If you lean into this double-metric, it will help you improvise interesting things. Don't be afraid to call on players to help adjudicate their Advantages/Threats. Try to ignore the generic tables; they are useful as benchmarks for the difference between 3 Threat and 4 Threat, but relying on them too heavily makes an inspiring mechanic fairly dull and rote.

>Be careful rolling
Don't make players roll frivolously. If the outcome is not in question, don't have them roll. If the outcome's degree doesn't matter, don't have them roll. If the outcome is uninteresting, don't have them roll. If you don't roll for each and every thing, then those times a player does roll will feel much more impactful-- those Advantages and Threats will MATTER in a satisfying psychological way.

>More green is better than turning green into yellow
This is a pet peeve of mine because I think they just fucked up the math on it; you build a pool of green dice based off your Attribute and upgrade green dice to yellow according to your trained skill. Great. Elegant. Easy and quick.

BUT

Yellow dice are ostensibly supposed to be better and yet fail in terms of investment vs. payout. Getting an additional green is flatly better than upgrading to a yellow.

Admittedly, however, yellow dice are the only ones with the critical symbol; they are thus very important to characters who want/need those symbols in their powers etc. Nonetheless, the game seems to indicate that having more yellow is better when that is not true.

>>55336441

In regards to using EotE for cyberpunk? Fuck yeah, go for it. You're helped by two things:

1) The double-metric dice economy is VERY easy to adapt into things like in-depth hacking sequences and the like. The dice pools are very versatile, which I consider the system's real strength.

2) The gun-and-equipment porn. Though characters rank up skills and grab talents and buy into new careers/specializations, there is a lot to be said for gear-as-character progress. Someone over at FFG has a fetish for guns, given the sheer volume of blasters/mods/craftables. In a cyberpunk world where your rig is your life, this seems thematically appropriate.

>>55333071
>lel SW is one step above playing pretend
>being this much of an autistic GURPSfag

>>55336262
It's a great system, I'm working on a Gundam setting for it, although it's still in the early stages (gonna wait for Genesys to hit before I can really get down to business)

>>55336262
>>55332007
Highly recommend Eclipse Phase.

Its a little bit bloated, but it does a great job of crunch-fluff alignment in a compelling & unique cyberpunk world.

The big draw is that characters are "egos" - consciousnesses that can swap from one body to another. It makes for interesting play where the rpg medium actually allows for exploration of interesting themes.

+ the hacking mechanics are great: conplex but not convoluted.

>>55336472
>hacking
You might want to look at the rules for slicer encounters in Edge of the Empire's Special Modifications book. I intend on having my players fend off attacking stormtroopers in a Holonet relay tower while the team's hacker gets in and wipes the evidence of an Imperial officer's defection.
Earlier she helped lockdown a building to stop an assassination/kidnap attempt on some ambassadors while the others were locked in combat with the perps.
It works a damn sight better for that than Shadowrun, I can tell you that much.

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>>55332007
>Cyberpunk 2020 : system is old and outdated as fuck, plus I don't like classes

Here's an incomplete but updated homebrew of CP2020 called Hunter Seeker, which has better hacking rules and is skill-based. Or random roll for fastest chargen.

Zaibatsu is also good in that it's rules light and really hits the flavour of classic cyberpunk stories.

>>55332229
>Okay, FATE/FAE then.
Yeah, that was going to be my suggestion. It's my default for groups that are not interested in a lot of crunchy combat mechanics. There are quite a few examples of how to retrofit it for cyberpunk.

>>55332666
Link? I have blades but I wasn't a backer so I don't have any of the hacks, would love to see some.

>>55332007
I haven't read your post yet i already know everything you said about GURPS not being the right system is wrong.
If you haven't said anythin about GURPS go with GURPS.

P.S.
Go with GURPS anyway. you'll learn to love it

>>55336312

Null Vector is in dev, but another called Karma in the Dark is in beta.

>>55339616

See response in

>>55340698

>>55332007
That's because cyberpunk is a shit genera

>>55341546

1) No
2) genera isn't a word

>>55341611
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/genera

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>>55332007
>GURPS
>Bloated
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

>>55341546
You're a shit genera.

Does anyone remember Ex Machina?

>>55339684
>hur dur GURPS GURPS USE GURPS YOU'LL EVENTUALLY GET STOCKHOLM SYNDROME AND "LOVE" IT ANYWAY
It's time to stop. GURPS is dogshit for people suffering from crippling autism.

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>>55341656
>Obnoxious all caps laughing
>Runescape laugh meme

Not making a great case, GURPSfag

>>55341837
Nah, he's right. GURPS causes cancer. Had a brother that died of GURPS.

GURPS is exactly what you want, you're just too lazy. It's not a difficult system, you literal fucking retard.

>>55342085
Because being an asshole is a convincing argument for a system?

>>55333212

>2017
>angelfire

>>55343010
Are you trying to imply that a no longer functional domain is not a valid source? How dare you. Fighting the system is the spirit of cyberpunk.

There is a wiki version of the angelfire Zaibatsu rules if you Google it though.

>>55341837
You're just mad your favorite systems are shit compared to my giant, pulsating GURPScock.

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Anyone try the sprawl?

>>55345311
Have. Have not played it. Good if you like the mission-based, episodic approach.

>>55342085
>chargen takes forever
>there are no valid comparisons about GURPS

Yes no contradiction here

>>55345311
It's listed in the OP, anon

>>55332007
Stars without number

>>55332007

First, you do something for me.

Explain exactly what you think "Cyberpunk" is, as thoroughly as possible, in the most concrete terms you can.

>>55332237
Spoken like a true GURPs fanboy. I cannot count the number of tines I've heard GURPs players just repeat back the same sentences with every point negated. They then tend to explain that if you hone-brew and combine GURPs right you get what you want, completely missing the fact that you may as well build a game from scratch at that point.

>>55333071

Here is the GURPs flag again, explaining that GURPs is totally easy (once you master the system and meta-game of GURPs customization).

It's like telling someone drawing is easy once they have hand carved a stencil set.

>>55342085

If the system really were easy, why do you need to say someone is lazy for not mastering it? Does it take a lot of effort or not?

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>>55346088

>"Cyberpunk" is, as thoroughly as possible, in the most concrete terms you can

Shit you think this is literature class or what? It would take a whole 300 book to define what would "cyberpunk" be without even scratching the surface.

Anyway I'll think you'll understand better what "cyberpunk" means to me if I hand you a list of "cyberpunk" stuff I like.

Novel Tier : Sprawl Trilogy

Comic book neck-beard tier : The Private Eye

Game Tier : E.Y.E : Divine Cybermancy

Weeb-shit tier : Psycho-pass, Ghost in the shell (Wow that choice is like sooo original), Lain

>>55332007
Just wondering what you think make C2020 "outdated"? I would offer something up to properly answer you question - but I just used a tweeked version of c2020.

>>55333212
Zaibatsu sucks and is only good for literally one specific type of game within the cyberpunk genre. It would actually just plain be better as a board game.

>>55347360
The problems with CP2020 are, right away..

Character creation sort of sucks. Solo's special trait is much better then everyone else's.

You roll stats. Every example character has much better stats then you will roll. The example basic thugs have Ref 10, for fuck's sake.

Armor able to survive pretty much anything is easy to get, and there are limited solutions to it. Many weapons are pointless if people do bring out heavy armor.

You roll randomly for the consequences of cybernetics. Also, cybernetics eat your soul. I hope you started out a super nice and empathetic person before they replaced your missing leg with a prosthesis or you will go crazy and murder everyone.

>>55347719

>Character creation sort of sucks. Solo's special trait is much better then everyone else's.

Only if you make the game solely based on combat. All the other classes are equally as useful if you have other kinds of challenges in mind. And having whole corporate divisions on your side like Corps give you, or having the perfect hook ups for what ever you need like with a Fixer is often more useful then getting to go first in combat and not be ambushed.

>You roll stats.

Just allotting an amount of points to assign is listed as an option as well.

>Armor able to survive pretty much anything is easy to get, and there are limited solutions to it.

Just limit what your players have access to at the start of the game - not a very hard fix.

>You roll randomly for the consequences of cybernetics. Also, cybernetics eat your soul.

I like this feature personally.

>>55346129
>>55346166
Hello unbiased Anon who so very clearly gave a honest try to GURPS.
I have to inform you that it's "GURPS", the s at the end isn't to make it "GURP" plural.

>>55348456

GURPS could really do with having better laid out rule books. It is really quite simple. It is hard to learn because it is poorly explained in the books. You don't have to use every rule. GURPS is subtractive. For GURPS, you take all the rules, and take away everything you don't need. Yes, chargen can take an awful long time, but if your campaign is going to last for months/years, then what is an hour if you can play exactly what you want to play?

The GURPS setting books are also really good at giving system agnostic advice.

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>>55341737

>>55341737
Life got you down? Can't figure out what the strange symbols on your keyboard that aren't letters are for? Struggling to grasp the concept of using a calculator? Then boy do I have news for you! FATE! A sensation sweeping cities by storm! FATE! Where not even the dice have numbers!

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>>55332007
>t out of the system?
>>55332159

>>55332007
SWN 2e, or SWN1e with some homebrew hacking rules.

Just limit your scope to one planet. Change the names of some of the faction turn stuff and voila.

>>55347719
>before they replaced your missing leg with a prosthesis
Just get an organic leg from the Body Bank. No HL at all.

>>55347719

>Character creation sort of sucks. Solo's special trait is much better then everyone else's.
Just get rid of character classes. Have each player just pick up 10 skills and that's it. Depending on the edition you use, you might have to redefine the application of a few skills (Authority - Intimidation, MediTech - First Aid, Black Market - Streetwise). Problem solved.
Personally, I apply Combat Sense only for initiative and not for Awareness/Notice.

>You roll stats. Every example character has much better stats then you will roll. The example basic thugs have Ref 10, for fuck's sake.
There are two ways to calculate stats. The first one is rolling, the second one is distributing points. Both feature on the same page in the rulebook. Learn to read.

>Armor able to survive pretty much anything is easy to get, and there are limited solutions to it. Many weapons are pointless if people do bring out heavy armor.
As a general rule, if you want to face heavily armored enemies, you should have a battle rifle or an anti-material rifle with AP ammo and not a 6mm pocket pistol.
Excessive armor layering can be a problem though. There's a official errata to fix it (see Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads), or you can simply lower the armor values of armored clothing and skinweave.

>You roll randomly for the consequences of cybernetics. Also, cybernetics eat your soul. I hope you started out a super nice and empathetic person before they replaced your missing leg with a prosthesis or you will go crazy and murder everyone.
Pathetic trolling attempt. If you started as a nice and empathic person, you probably have Empathy at 7 or 8. This gives you 70 or 80 points of humanity. A cyberleg has creates a humanity loss of 2d6. At worst it will bring your humanity down to 58 - which will lower your Empathy to 6.
That said, there is a better, more detailed humanity loss system available that can be found in Grimm's Cybertales.

>>55348831
>There's a official errata to fix it (see Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads)
Is that the stuff in the New Armour Rules box on p101 (Maximum Armour and Proportional Armour)?

>>55348851
I think, yes, but I never used it. I just lowered the value of armored clothing/fabrics, subdermal armor and skinweave.

8 > 2
10 > 4
12 > 6
14 > 8
16 > 10
18 > 12
20 > 14

The rational behind it is that they lack absorption, through rigidity or thickness, to completely stop the attack. Imagine it like this: If you were to clamp jeans fabric in a sturdy frame, you probably couldn't punch a hole through it. Does it mean that jeans fabric is punch-proof? It's the same with bullet-proof fabric. Maybe the fabric cannot be pierced by bullets, but if the fabric and the bullet penetrate 7.5cm inside your body, then you'll get some serious damage.

Kevlar t-shirt, flak vests, door gunner's vest, MetalGear, nylon helmet and steel helmet aren't affected by the change. Not affected are also the cybernetic armors like torso plate, cowl and face plate.

I also lowered the armor rating of leather to 0.

>>55349092
>I also lowered the armor rating of leather to 0.
That's not 80s. Neither is it really 90s.

>>55349166
Leather is for look only. If you want leather that protects, have it doubled with ballistic fabric for protection (armored jackets come in all kinds and shapes).

>>55349092
AV change also applies to flak pants - forgot to mention them. They are designed primarily to stop fragments and shrapnels, but they also offer some protection against small arms fire. The flak vest on the other hand is designed, despite what its name says, to stop rifle bullets - it should be named plate carrier or armor carrier. The door gunner's vest is roughly the same, but with stronger plates and better protections in the groin, neck and shoulder areas (hence the higher AV rating). The equivalent of the old M-1969 flak vests doesn't exist anymore - they all got replaced by body armor.

>>55348138
>All classes are equally useful

Even the book doesn't claim that.

Cop, Media, Rockerboy and Techie special abilities are literally only as useful as the game master makes them and most the time are going to be pointless.

Medtech and Netrunner are just niche protection skill gates. Fixer just turns off all leg work and lets them bypass investigation with a skill check.

Nomad is the only one that you can even debate could be a match to a Solo, but it's filled with the headache of getting NPC help and it's hard to say 20 nomads is going to help you vs a Solo with +10 Initiative.

>>55349381
You're still only thinking in terms of combat. Stop that.

>>55349381
I think I'm going to have to diagnose you with a bad case of Shadowrun-itis.

>>55349381
The netrunner discovers stuff the bad guy did with help from the techie and fixer. The solo and nomad protect them from the bad guy's henchmen. The medtech heals everyone after the fight. The rocker and media tell the story and raise public outrage. The cop arrests the bad guy.

That's in essence how Pondsmith imagined cyberpunk.

>>55349408

Shadowrun player here...what? Legwork is basically the single most important thing in Shadowrun. Investigation skills/abilities are fantastically useful.

>>55349717
Not in my experience. We have a guy who does that, and the rest of us are largely decorative until it's time to apply hurting.

>>55349778
>doingitsowrongithurts.jpg

Chrome and punk
(a lasers and feelings hack)

>>55349806
>if you don't do things exactly the way I think they should be done, you're wrong and must stop
If it works it works.

>>55332007
>For a very long time I've been looking for a cyberpunk rule-set but for literally every cyberpunk game that I checked there was always something that really bothered me.
that is the status quo, OP. that's not a huge issue though: take the system that seems least bothersome and homebrew it.

>>55349821
well, if you like being largely decorative - more power to you.

>>55350070
It means I don't have to do as much roleplay, which is good, because I'm shit at it.

>>55332007
Git Gud, alternativel Kuro

>>55350592
The system is pretty bad (like in many French games), but the jap horror/cyberpunk mix is pretty good.

>>55349778

What is the group to result in that? There is basically no archetype save 'Street sam' that can't do investigation and even then, as a point buy system a street sam can easily pick up some ability there or just have contacts.

>>55350607
Yeah, largely decorative sounds more like "couldn't be bothered to build more than a hammer".

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>>55349778
That's something I cannot understand. I GMd Cyberpunk 2020 for years. Most of the teams always consisted of solos. It didn't prevent them from investigating. Skills like Awareness/Notice, Streetwise, Intimidation, Persuasion & Fast-Talk, Shadowing, Stealth, Lockpicking, and Security Systems are always very handy when it comes to finding clues. Also, all characters should have a contact network that can help them (might require a favor or some cash).
Note: I used a modified Cyberpunk 2020 version (no classes, characters have 65 points to purchase at least 12 skills, minimum skill level is 2, maximum skill level is 7).

>>55351182

Yeah, on the Shadowrun front my favourite character ever was an Adept (Who are super focused specialists) in 4e.

She still could do investigation. She was as sneaky as an 8ft tall woman with 80s hair could be (I mean, it comes out of the same stat as her hitting you with her vibroblade) and invested enough in social skills that she could do that pretty well.

Just with Dexterity/Intuition (Two stats no street sam wants to be without since they control init) you have all the room to be a pretty good as a sneaky detective without investing in a single other stat.

And even outside that...contacts. A good contact can save you a heap of time and literally anyone can invest a pittance of points to get a Lone Star Detective as a drinking buddy or an old Yakuza guy you used to work for.

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>>55351308
Contacts also make great plot hooks. Your contact inside the yakuza will only give you the vital information if you eliminate his competitor. For this you need to find that bastard and flatline him. Then, when the job is done you come back to your yakuza informant, just to find out he's getting kidnapped by the competitor's clan. So you have to start a rescue mission or a motorized chase (which might also involve the cops)... Or the guy he asked you to zero wasn't a competitor but an undercover cop - now you have the NCPD on your tail.

>>55351426

Yeah. Contacts keep the game flowing outside of the runs themselves. I've had multiple sessions that were just 'Dealing with contacts and their own stuff' and it does a lot to help people feel like they are part of a living world rather than dealing with a Random Crime Generator sending them to do stuff.

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>>55351460
Exactly!

>>55348515

Oh hey, someone who understands the benefits and faults of the system without falling back on a knee-jerk response.

>>55332283
> metric
Try Hero System.

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>>55332283
>foots

>>55351182
>>55349698

And that's the rub: A solo can do anything anyone else can do in cyberpunk, but nobody else can do what a solo does.

Medtech, Rocker, Media and Techie are NPC archtypes. There's no reason for a player to run one when a Solo can take them as contacts.

Cop isn't even a legitimate archtype. There's nothing stopping a Solo from being on the police payroll.

Thanks to nich protection the netrunner has a role, but it's walled off from everything else to the point that this again could almost work better as an NPC that has to be protected when hacking, resulting in one scene (protect the netrunner) rather then two (protect the netrunner and netrunner hacks).

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>>55355479
>file.gif.jpg

>>55355663
>Cop isn't even a legitimate archtype. There's nothing stopping a Solo from being on the police payroll.
Apart from, you know, general cops not being trained murderblenders like Solos.

>Medtech, Rocker, Media and Techie are NPC archtypes. There's no reason for a player to run one when a Solo can take them as contacts.
Consider that not every game is Shadowrun-like corporate black ops.

>>55332007
>system is old and outdated as fuck, and don't like classes

Just play so CP 2020. This is the works fine and everyone plays solos anyway so don't worry about the classes

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>>55356255
>Consider that not every game is Shadowrun-like corporate black ops.

Getting shot by a moron is, however, always a danger. The constant repetition in the book is that life is cheap and violence is everywhere. Just going from one city to the next is likely to get you jumped and murdered by a nomad gang.

>Apart from, you know, general cops not being trained murderblenders like Solos.

Yeah, clearly no cops fit that archtype. Ignore the image.

>>55358216
>Getting shot by a moron is, however, always a danger.
That's why every role is able to defend themselves.

>Psycho Squads exist
>therefore all cops are highly trained military-equivalent personnel
Yes, and every beat cop is a SWAT member.

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>>55332202

>>55332007
>Reddit spacing
I was going to answer you, but no. Just fuck off.

>>55358216
>>55358623
Hey, you guys do know about the sidebar that says 'if you want a role that isn't covered by the ones given, just grab one of the special skills and like 6 regular ones', right? The one with the Politician and Socialite as examples?

>>55358759
Inorite? It's like he wants his post to be easy to parse so that people can provide suggestions.

You might want to check out Firefly or Leverage; those are both versions of Cortex Plus and would be super easy to run as cyberpunk just by nature of its trait/dice pool system. You could de-emphasize combat easily just by giving enemies stronger defensive or offensive traits.

>>55332263
Seconding TechNoir as a fun time. Definitely not combat focused--it's more of a hardboiled noir game. Trying to kill everything just makes the central intrigue more volatile and escalates the storytelling in ways that makes shit get more lethal for the players in general.
I can see someone being very put off by the "Transmission"/random plot node GMing side-game stuff, but I love it.

It's also important to note that it's best for one-off self contained stories, but no reason you can't treat it like a series of stories about the same characters (or the same city, in any case).
If you wanted to do that I'd recommend have the setting (that is, the Transmission) change in at least one way between every arc. That could happen regardless if Contacts get, groups, or objects of interest get nixed or "resolved". Which would be pretty rad, now that I think of it.

>>55332446
Nah, it doesn't have exploding dice. Its dice pool is just to see what the highest un-nullified result is.

>>55358975
>>55358758
Make that thirding, I guess.
The Player's Guide is also free, but that's just the equipment list and character creation rules plus truncated action/healing rules that are hard to understand without having read the full rules.

>>55349381

If you don't throw any combat in a session then how is a solo's ability useful? All special abilities are only as useful as a game master makes them.

Also, if you can think outside of the box a little bit, non combat classes can be really useful in combat.

For example: I had a session with a Techie and a Solo. The techie killed more enemies than the solo did because he jury rigged an old crane and started using it on the enemies.

Another time, there was a rocker around, and they used their charismatic leadership to induce a riot in the streets with some slam poetry, which was enough to shake off the government agents who were chasing the party and surely would have killed them

Fixer's also aren't about bypassing investigations, they are about knowing where to get the resources you need.

The other classes are great and they all are incredibly useful as long as you have a good GM who designs the game around the players and their capabilities.

>>55355663
I think the netrunner point is legitimate - I usually reduce Netrunners to simple interface checks for the more traditional runner stuff, and suggest they focus mostly on practical programs like hacking cars.

But there is so much more to do in cyberpunk that you aren't considering. For example what if you want to play with your focus being on a Rocker's career as a musician in a cyberpunk world? You will need med techs and solos to take care of them sure. But you will need a media to get the word out, a techie to keep your gear in order, and you may even benefit from having a corp backing you with corporate resources. There is a ton there that the solo just can't do alone.

Some people play whole campaigns of c2020 with little combat. My group usually does 1 combat every 3 sessions.

Cops are important because they have government authority on their side - people are required by law to answer their questions.

>>55362563

You are mistaking something and falling into one of the big problems with class based games, assuming the classes stereotype is restricted to only that class.

The Solo isn't the "best class" because combat is all that matters, it's the "best class" because the Solo special ability provides an absurdly huge bonus and every other special power is either nich protection or a vague power that is either very powerful if the GM goes out of their way to make it useful or utterly pointless if the GM doesn't go out of their way to make them work.

The best way to 'fix' it might just be to give everyone Combat Awareness and make the Solo's special ability resistant to cyber psychosis.

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>>55355663
A solo cannot hack mainframes and take control of remotely-controlled defense systems. He cannot hack into a robocab and crash it in a group of enemies. Also, to cover everything the scope of an investigative character, you'll need two or three solos.

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>>55363239

That's true. Thanks to nich protection literally the only people that can really do any hacking are netrunners. Everyone else, no matter what they know, even computer-specialized techs, can't perform any hacking.

>It would take several..

Any class can handle investigation with decent empathy.

Just do Savage Worlds

>>55363458
>Any class can handle investigation with decent empathy.
>decent empathy.
>Solo
Good luck having good empathy once you have cyberoptics, cyberaudio, some neuralware, one or two cyberlimbs, and a couple of implanted weapons.

>>55363458
>even computer-specialized techs
Do hardware, not software.

>Everyone else, no matter what they know, [...] can't perform any hacking.
Interface is only used to run Interface programs. There's nothing in the rules that says you can't just steal their server/NAS/mainframe, hook it up to a screen and keyboard, and slowly rip your way through it. Sounds like a pretty good use of Programming, actually.

Now, if you want to talk really useless skills, Dodge & Escape has no reason to exist because any Martial Arts skill is a replacement and improvement for it.

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>>55363750
Weirdly, Solo tend to have high Empathy at creation. Given the upgrade plans is "lots of cyber-goodies" but they can't afford them at creation.

Solo are also, ironically, likely the role able to survive best if they don't get implants.

All this discussion only makes me think that I was right to get rid of character classes.

>>55364002
Unless you give the players a fuckton of points, solos won't have high empathy. REF (to act fast, shoot, hit and dodge, also more skill points), BODY (to withstand damage and hit hard, also to be able to have larger weapons implanted), COOL (for not being a pussy that surrenders), M.A. (for moving fast), INT (to spot danger, not being dumb, also more skill points) are all more important to a solo than EMP. The average solo will start with something between 4 and 6 in empathy - so a very medium score.

>>55364321
>get rid of character classes.
That just changes the discussion to 'is Combat Sense the best special skill/skill' depending on whether you've maintained the division between them and the normal ones. And if' you're taking advantage of the sidebar mentioned in >>55358760, it's not like Roles really exist anyway. Making the Role section of the character sheet a list of checkboxes instead of a line to write on was a mistake.

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>>55364350
I also limited Combat Sense to initiative, since I found it absolutely illogical that solos can better spot ambushes rather than lay them. Getting rid of character classes also offers the advantage that you don't need a 20-pages long list of character classes with skill.

>>55337152
>which has better hacking rules
Faster hacking rules*
The original 2020 hacking rules are just fine, and in fact very in depth and fun to play.

>>55347719
>Character creation sort of sucks. Solo's special trait is much better then everyone else's.
No, it's not. It's better in combat, but it has no application outside of that. I'd argue either the corporate's ability or the fixer's is the most useful.

>You roll stats. Every example character has much better stats then you will roll. The example basic thugs have Ref 10, for fuck's sake.
That's just one of the options. It also clearly states you can point buy.

>Armor able to survive pretty much anything is easy to get, and there are limited solutions to it. Many weapons are pointless if people do bring out heavy armor.
Just like real life. It's meant to be a realistic system, not a gamey one.

>You roll randomly for the consequences of cybernetics. Also, cybernetics eat your soul. I hope you started out a super nice and empathetic person before they replaced your missing leg with a prosthesis or you will go crazy and murder everyone.
It's pretty well impossible to go cyberpsycho from one piece of chrome, or even a few as long as you have 5 EMP.

>>55364488
>20-pages long list of character classes with skill.
It's one page nigger, the rest of it is all fluff.

>>55364488
>absolutely illogical that solos can better spot ambushes rather than lay them.
Makes perfect sense. Your spidey-sense isn't going to help you set up an ambush, but it will tell you that something feels wrong when you're about to walk into one.

>>55364637
You're only talking of the basic classes, I'm speaking of the list with all classes from all published supplements. This list has over 90 classes and is about 20 pages long when printed - and that's just a list with classes and skills. Then, you still would need a list with the explication of the different new class skills.

>>55332007

If you are Swedish then NeoTech is pretty good, imo. Very

>>55364665
You're a top solo (Combat Sense +8, Stealth +7, Hide/Evade +7) and lay an ambush to some mediocre solo (Combat Sense +4, Awareness/Notice +4). The mediocre solo has more chances to spot your ambush than to get surprised. How is that logical?

US soldiers regularly fell into ambushes laid by badly trained militiamen in Iraq and Afghanistan.

>>55364771
>This list has over 90 classes and is about 20 pages long when printed - and that's just a list with classes and skills.
I don't know that one. I know the four-page one in DF2020's Ultimate Character Generation thing.

>>55364824
I had printed it years ago and kept it in my Cyberpunk 2020 binder for inspiration. Threw it away last year or so, my 7.5cm thick binder immediately became much slimmer and lighter.

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>>55364871
Must have had the font size fairly big.

>>55364824
Don't remember where I had found it: Datafortress 2020, Black Hammer Cyberpunk Project, or some other website - it must have been during the second half of the 1990s.
It wasn't this one: http://www.wyldeside.com/rpgs/cp2020/role-full-list.html or this one: http://rpg.web-mage.ca/pages/roles.php - but it was pretty similar.

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>>55364884
Does a game really need 95 character classes? IMO, the 10 basic ones are sufficient if you can modify them.

>>55365024
>Does a game really need 95 character classes?
>kevin_siembieda.jpg
>3.PF.jpg
If you look closely, most of them are just the basic ones with slightly different Career Skill lists. Fairly few of them actually add a new Special Skill.

>>55365024
Or zero. Roles don't really add anything to cyberpunk.

>>55364884
Apart of:
Combat Sneak, Geonghu, Nindo, ACPA Combat Sense, Aquatic Sense, Vehicle Zen, Sub Tactics, Aircraft Sense, Marine Instinct, Counsel, Reconnaissance, Warpath, Underwater Genecist, Marine Instinct, Streetdeal, Admin Resources, Research, Reason, Sneak, Con, Vamp, Scrounge, Gang Rank, Chameleon, Workganger, Brotherhood, Salvage, Ranking, Space Combat, Spycraft, Trace

That's only 31 skills that add up to the 90+ vanilla skills.

>>55365506
A bunch of those are just Combat Sense with some conditions bolted on. Streetdeal is the regular Fixer ability, did you mean Kith?

>>55365506
>>55365540
Oh, no, I see the Kith ones there, you just took the Kith bit off the front.

>>55365085
Are we talking about the game or the genre?

Roles aren't "needed", just as basically no mechanic is needed for a game to function in a genre.

But for me, The Sprawl more or less proves that cyberpunk + classes work (I had my suspicions since SR but w/e).

>>55365545
Probably. When you're at 30 new skills, one more or less doesn't matter that much.

>>55365085
That's why I'm against character classes, but I'm ok with archetypes.

>>55363183

Not really a solo thing but a cool class ability would be one that reduces the effect cyberware has on your ability to social (You'll still be crazy but you'll be a likeable, social crazy person).

>>55365568

Sprawl is a lot of fun, I'm in a game of it currently. Man, my current PC would not remotely work in cyberpunk 2020 or Shadowrun 5e. As she runs very contrary to the idea of 'The more 'ware you have, the worse you are at empathy/social awareness'

Da Hui/Aeon: A Korean ex-model who is more or less the embodiment of Korea's plastic surgery culture. Doctors started telling her of the risks of each new surgery, less and less flesh to work with every time she needed to look better. Eventually they told her there was nothing they could do. Any more of it would kill her. So she moved into full on augmentations, being basically a full body cyborg by the time the game started.

She's a Pusher based around the idea that transhuman perfection is coming and will liberate people from the cruel works of nature. Those nature made ugly can be beautiful, those it made lame can walk and those it made dull can become brilliant.

I wanted to have a shot at someone going full on the transhumanism cult bandwagon without coming from the direction of 'I am enlightened by my own intelligence/I'm a singularity seeker'. She came into it via fashion. The 'corp' I created when we were starting is the Future Hope Alliance, a hawkish green political party that is firmly anti-cybernetics.

>>55332007
>GURPS
>takes a long time to make a character
whoops, you forgot to read the instructions on how to run a GURPS game

>>55365660
SR could handle it, possibly, cyber'd up Face is a thing there too.

But yeah, I found that although classes are supposedly more limited than classless, when they fit the genre so well and are made with the right scope, it doesn't feel like a limit at all.

>>55365739

5e moved a bit away from cyber'd up face since 'ware now reduces your social limit. Like most things with limit though it's either crippling or doesn't matter depending on the situation. Wasn't a great mechanic.

>>55365660
The whole 'cybernetics make you less human' is a fucked up thing to begin with. The idea that somebody with a prosthetic leg and arm is less pure and sane then someone with no leg or arm is crazy.

>>55365739
Yeah, honestly, my last SR4 game could have been run in The Sprawl & the only real diff would have been background details.

>>55365783

Honestly, Magic is pretty easy to do in the Sprawl as long as you ask 'So what do you want your magic to DO?'. Magic is a tool, after all. What role does it fill for you?

You want to summon spirits and cast healing spells? Be a Tech.
You want to blow shit the fuck up with magic? Be a Killer and call your Special Weapon 'Fireball'. I mean, Monster of the Week (Another PBTA game) gives weapon stats to attack spells as you are using them to hurt people.
You want to have a literally enchanting voice that can make people do stuff for you? Pusher is right there.

All it really needs is the GM to agree that for you, cyberware is mystical tattoos and imbued spells or such. Mechanically the same.

>>55365776

It's one of those things a lot of cyberpunk follows without asking 'Why am I doing this?'. It makes sense for some stories but not for all.

>>55365783
Well, they are doing different things, SR is mostly about tinkering with future-tech gadgets and watch them in action, maybe some problem solving, The Sprawl is about playing out a cyberpunk story.

>>55365831
There's a SR PbtA game called The Sixth World, iirc.

>>55332211
Shadilay, shadilay.

>>55365831
Well, yeah. Was relatively low magic though. Noone actually wanted to mage it up. There was a phys adept, but she could have been reskinned at an Infiltrator without loss.

>>55365885

Yeah, that works well.

>>55365854
It really would not have been doing a differet thing in my case.

>>55365695
Which part of which book is it? Are you referring to the lite rules? Basic rules? or How to be a gurps GM?

>>55340698
Thank you

>>55365898
>It really would not have been doing a differet thing in my case.
Right, I'm just saying that to be fair to SR. Most people who are looking for the Sprawl experience are often sorta stuck with it because it's more widespread. This doesn't mean you can't do cyberpunk stories with SR (I mean, duh) but it isn't as optimized for it as The Sprawl.

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>>55365776
With Cyberpunk 2020 it was obviously ripped from A. D. Police Files / Bubblegum Crisis. If I remember correctly cyerware didn't have any effect on personality in GURPS Cyberpunk, and in Shadowrun 1st Edition, it only affected Essence, which only affects magical ability.

One thing I liked about Shadowrun 1st Edition was that it absolutely had no character classes. If you wanted to be a magic adept, you just had to put priority on magic. If you wanted to be a rigger you just needed to keep some cash for a neural interface and have a couple of driving/piloting skills. About every other character would simply be a street operative/street samurai.

>>55365987
Literally the basic set. The GM is supposed to provide character templates that contain everything a character needs to be functional within that setting and within the scope of the game. It should not ever be the case that each player designs their character from scratch unless they specifically want to for some reason and even then they should still be provided with templates for reference.

99% of the time I see someone complain about GURPS character creation it's a case of the GM did not provide templates, which the Campaigns book tells them to do multiple times and has an entire fucking chapter on.

>>55365776
The Ship of Theseus is a cyberpunk staple, as a narrative. The essence being, how many bits can you replace before you stop being 'you'. Taking it a step forward and making it a psychological concept as well makes for an interesting narrative (the loss of identity as an internal conundrum, rather than an outsider perception of one's self). If you want to enjoy cyberpunk, you really need to stop thinking in transhumanist terms.

>>55366733
Shadowrun also has a mystical justification with the loss of Essence.

So since this seems like the place to ask, I was very curious about Ex Machina as a cyberpunk system and was wondering if any of you have tried it.

>>55366793
Expanding on that, it's more that the prosthetic/tech is an invasive replacement of parts rather than the "natural" loss.

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>>55366860
I didn't play it, but I've read it. It uses the TriStat system which I find ok. What I found to be original is that the game doesn't really have a cyberware list. Instead, you choose attributes like Extra Hit Points, Night Vision, or Armor, and you give a justification for it (more hit points because of some kind of life support system, natural armor because of subdermal armor). Ex Machina doesn't have a background story, but it comes with background ideas (space elevator, prison city, IOSHI...). What I found especially good is the non-VR hacking system.

>>55332007
>Cyberpunk RPG
>Don't like classes
Infinity the role play game

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>>55348515
the real problem is that it is subtractive and rulsets really are bloated. It should be additive with simple options. The way it is I have to always talk to the GM about what is he going to allow in his game or else everything breaks down so not only does it take a long time to build a character, even with a degree of mastery, but it also needs the GM to pass a specific list of advantages, disadvantages, quirks and skills he is allowing.

If you add to that the fact that gurps is generally a high risk system unless specified otherwise, it becomes a necessity to make characters quickly. I've played campaigns where a character died every session and some advantages/disadvantages where glaringly better/worst for their point costs because the way the GM played.

So now he have to fiat specific point costs for skills/advantages/disadvantages he find had to deal with, changing all the characters with it or penalizing in XP the players that "abuse" them.

That is not even taking into account the metagaming aspect of the game. If I pick specific disadvantages that lean on the roleplaying side instead of on the rollplaying one, the worst that can happen to me is to be awarded less XP because I chose to do something intelligent instead of something stupid to do "what my character would do". So now the GM needs to trick payers instead, so they can fall victims of their disadvantages, and after the third time a random girl my character have sex with because he have lecherousness is really a demon in disguise it becomes annoying.

Gurps is a good system, but I would never actually recommend it. I enjoyed it, even with its mostly elitists fans, even when some campaigns I spent more time character building than actually playing. It is the best system to do everything, but is far from being the best system to do specific things.

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>>55367932
I'm not familiar with the most recent edition of GURPS, but the big problem with 3rd edition was character creation. It takes really long, because you have to calculate point cost of stats and skills (both non-linear), then the players have to go through dozens of advantages/disadvantages, then they have to calculate cash and purchase equipment. Keep in mind that cyberpunk in a rather highly-lethal system. Players might have to create more than one character in a campaign.

>>55368054
I played mostly 2-3 ed, but I understand a lot have been streamlined in 4th. It's still cumbersome, in my opinion, and in the end the same gm asked for specific roles (fighter, mechanic/driver, hacker and medic) or else it would be even more lethal.

It improves a lot of issues of older editions, but some are just part of the scope of the system itself.

Shadowrun Anarchy.

You can just use GURPS without using the Cyberpunk supplement. Just get the high tech book, GURPS Lite or the Basic Set, and you are good. There are templates which make character creation very easy.

>>55332007
AFMBE is a decent system and it's easy. The Future expansion book adds some cyber punk stuff too it but you can basically add your own skills and stuff quite easily.

>>55367915
>Infinity
>Cyberpunk
HaaH WaaW

>love cyberpunk
>love fantasy
>love shadowrun setting
>hate d6 pool system
what do?

>>55370252
The Sixth world, Cryptomancer, Savage Worlds, FATE, off the top of my head.

>>55370179
>corporate espionage is still very much a thing
>an entire faction is based around rebelling against government/AI control
>effective immortality is available, but only for the chosen few rich/important enough to afford it
Tell me that's not cyberpunk as fuck

>>55370347
To that end, the East India Trading Company is cyberpunk, as was the 1930s. Your definition of what is "Cyberpunk" is loose, like the genre is some kind of scale.

>>55370378
>the 1930s and 1800s had people being able to pay to have their minds backed up just in case they die
????

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>>55370437

FUND IT!

>>55370437
I'm saying that if you only need three things that kind of fit in to the genre to make it cyberpunk, you can count the 1800s and 1930s.

Also, you're thinking too transhumanist, too Eclipse Phase, with that.

>>55366733

That might be true for cybernetic enchantment, but when it comes to prosthetic..

It's not transhumanist. A man with a prosthetic leg that restores functionally is going to be more physiologically healthy then one with his leg ending in a stump at the knee. It's literally not transhumanist because these are legitimate medical devices that restore human capability, not supplant it.

>>55365776

Yes and no. I can tell you right now that if I was in an accident and had to use one of those robotic arms then it would feel very strange (cool though). Imagine then replacing major parts of the body and even modyfing brain function. The idea is probably depersonalization, something akin to Ghost in the shell.

>>55366733
>The essence being, how many bits can you replace before you stop being 'you'

your body replaces itself anyway, it's dumb to pretend it's going to have any overt psychological effects

>>55372927

You'd get used to it. The arm you have now is just a fleshy machine connected to your brain. The only difference between that and a replacement that can accurately replicate all its functionality is how used to it you are.

>>55365776
I loathe transhumanists.

>>55373660
How many cybernetics have you had installed? Could you please elaborate on your experience with "getting used to them"?

>The only difference between that and a replacement that can accurately replicate all its functionality is how used to it you are.
Please go on. I'm sure you can go into great detail about your various cybernetic implants and how they do or don't affect you.

>>55375463

It's commons sense. Your arm doesn't have anything in it that affects your personality. It's just a tool. Replacing one tool for another isn't going to fundamentally change who you are.

If you want more salient examples though, ask anyone who wears eyeglasses or has a pacemaker or a metal hip.

>>55376409
Not to mention enough people have had prosthetic arms, legs and hell, even eyes now that if robot parts made you go insane it would have happened already.

>>55373620
>>55373660

Both kinda missing the point.

>>55376557
Something something cranial control hardware something something analog-digital conversion

>>55377363

what's the point?

>>55378499
One of the core themes of cyberpunk is the dehumanising effect of technology. The idea isn't that getting a prosthetic limb or your eyes replaced would make you go 'crazy', It's that once you start replacing your major bodily functions and brain processes with machines and implants, eventually you might start viewing yourself less and less as human, rather a modular rig with hardware and software. You start to think that it doesn't matter that your arm got blown off, you can just upgrade it to metal. Once your cybered up enough, you'll find it difficult empathising with humans at all, you no longer really think of yourself as human either.

>>55379063

This is all meaningless bullshit though. I could write science fiction story from the perspective of someone from the 1500s about how living in a climate controlled environment or having the means to travel 500 miles in a day makes you "not human and unable to empathize."

It's just age-old "new technology is scary" hysteria but with a cool aesthetic tied to it. Completely thoughtless and based on a fear of the unfamiliar.

Just gonna drop my homebrew in case anyone is interested. Not 100% complete, a few incomplete rules and whatnot, but mostly playable.

https://www.scribd.com/document/355041546/Nano-Pulp

>>55379470

Yeah, and...? You do know Lovecraft made a career out of that, right?

>>55379470
Doesn't make it invalid within the context of the fiction.

>>55379666

makes it gay tho

>>55379759
No, I don't believe being a trope makes antthing homosexual. Perhaps consult a dictionary.

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>>55336665
The guy said he doesn't want rules bloat, Eclipse Phase is the absolute last game you should recommend him

>>55379470
>and based on a fear of the unfamiliar.
What do you think Cyberpunk as a genre is you dumbass.

It is literally the fears, no matter how ridiculous, of the 1980s.

>>55376557
>>55376409
Those are replacements. Bad ones, too. And saying that they don't have an effect on psyche is also pretty false (don't tell me people wearing glasses don't ever feel insecure about it).

Cyberware is upgrades.

You really think that being faster, stronger, smarter to such a degree that other people are like children to you would have no effect? Yeah, maybe a healthy mind can deal with it over time, but we are talking about people who go "you know what, I'll cut off my limbs and replace them with unnatural looking metal implants that forever mark me as an outcast to society so I can kill people better".

>>55381242
>(don't tell me people wearing glasses don't ever feel insecure about it).

You're doing some sleight of hand here to change the subject. The question is whether you would stop being human and become unable to empathize with other humans, not whether you think the modifications look odd or aren't aesthetically ideal.

>You really think that being faster, stronger, smarter to such a degree that other people are like children to you would have no effect?

Are you completely unable to empathize with someone in a wheelchair? With someone whose IQ is a standard deviation below yours? I think that says more about you than about cybernetics.

>unnatural looking
>that forever mark me as an outcast to society

just like tattoos, right, grandma?

>>55381315
>You're doing some sleight of hand here to change the subject. The question is whether you would stop being human and become unable to empathize with other humans, not whether you think the modifications look odd or aren't aesthetically ideal.

Eh, sure. I'm pretty sure losing an arm and having to wear a prosthetic does occasionally make people feel like they are less. I think Extending that into the other direction could work.

>Are you completely unable to empathize with someone in a wheelchair? With someone whose IQ is a standard deviation below yours? I think that says more about you than about cybernetics.

_I_ can empathize with them. It's a bit harder, but they are also only a bit different.

I'm saying Mr. Sundowner, who is btw FOOKING INVINCIBLE, would probably have a harder time doing so (not that he wants to, anyway).

>just like tattoos, right, grandma?

You can cover up tattoos.

Tattoos also just mean you got a decorative tattoo, not that you got implants that make you able to tear down walls or tear a man in half with your bare hands, all the time. Tattoos have meaning, sure, but a cyberlimb also has an inherent physical function.

>>55381386
>Eh, sure. I'm pretty sure losing an arm and having to wear a prosthetic does occasionally make people feel like they are less.

That's true only as long as the new arm is less functional than the old one.

>they are also only a bit different.

A wheelchair is less different than a cybernetic limb? really now?

>You can cover up tattoos.

The ability to cover up a given cybernetic replacement would depend on that specific cybernetic replacement.

>not that you got implants that make you able to tear down walls or tear a man in half with your bare hands, all the time. Tattoos have meaning, sure, but a cyberlimb also has an inherent physical function.

It's not much different from a guy working out a ton and being stronger than almost everyone else

>>55381437
>A wheelchair is less different than a cybernetic limb? really now?
It's not wired into your nervous system.

>>55381437
How many people do you know who willingly cripple themselves to roll around in a wheelchair or voluntarily bond themselves to a set of wheels?

>>55381437
>A wheelchair is less different than a cybernetic limb? really now?

A wheelchair is a relatively small downgrade compared to what upgrade a cybernetic limb could be. Also, we are not talking about guys with the occasional cyber implant (which, just like wheelchairs, would probably affect their psyche but could be worked over) but people who become mechanical killing machines.

>The ability to cover up a given cybernetic replacement would depend on that specific cybernetic replacement.

Sure. A combat implant (which is what is being discussed) would probably be obvious though, if for nothing else because you want it to be armored.

Again, we are talking about otherwise physically healthy people who decide cutting their limbs off to kill better is a good idea.

>It's not much different from a guy working out a ton and being stronger than almost everyone else

If it wouldn't, you wouldn't get implants. You are, at the bare minimum, an order of magnitude stronger and possibly bulletproof.

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>>55381460

>>55381555
You are thinking "cyberlimb as a functional prsthetic" and not "cyberlimb for that guy who wants to fight tanks bare handed".

There also a rather large difference between "I hit the gym a five nights a week to keep my shit in shape" & "I hit the street doc & got wired reflexes & razor claws" or "Check out the semi auto I had intalled in my forearm".

>>55381571
>>55381482

If the problem is that people want to upgrade themselves to be superstrong killing machines, then whatever psychological problem exists was present in those people before getting upgrades and wasn't caused by them. You're still not showing the cause and effect where normal person ---> cybernetic replacements ---> cold unfeeling psychopath

At best, what you have here is insecure/vengeful/overcompensting psychopath ---> cybernetic upgrades ---> extremely dangerous person(you still haven't really demonstrated that this person would become cold and/or unfeeling)

But also, if a difference in killing potential between two individuals is the deciding factor here, then a guy who can fight a tank is not any less human than a guy driving a tank.

>>55381580

Yeah, you know how bodybuilders get literal guns in their arms. Same thing.

>>55381242
In a previous cyberpunk thread an anon had written a pretty cool post about how cyberware changes you. Sadly I cannot find it anymore. I only remember the end, where the main character wants to cry, but cannot, since no tear comes out of his cyberoptics.

One or two things to consider:
Parts of your body might get changed without your consent. It is one thing to replace willingly your bad eyes for a pair of cyberoptics. Having 50% of your body replaced without your consent, and you having to pay for it (modern slavery), somehow, is another.
Cyberware might bug and break down in wrong moments. Mr Studd implant bursting through you pant in the MagLev, but not working when with your input. Or a bug makes it so sensitive that the lightest touch hurts like hell.
The communication implant you have in the brain makes you online 24/7 - your boss wakes you up at impossible hours and during you free time.
You're never sure if what you see and hear isn't transmitted and recorded somewhere - no intimacy and paranoia.
You can have phantom pain in your cyberlimbs that make you go crazy.
Probably the amount of sensation you can feel through cyberware is very limited. There are probably pressure sensors built in so you don't crush stuff, but there are no or very few heat/cold sensors.
Your enhanced hearing makes you overhear things you don't really want.

>>55381718

Some people own literal guns and some people don't. In terms of being able to kill, that is the same thing.

>>55381779
So you're equating getting bulked up at the gym with surgically removing bits of your anatomy to kill people?

>>55381555
>hurr it does all this other good stuff, surely getting things wired into my nervous system can't be bad for my brain
Are you actually stupid, or just pretending?

>>55381844

Not equating, comparing. The point was raised that cybernetics are bad because it allows some people to be more powerful than others. Bulking up at the gym already allows this.

So now the point is made that the difference in power level between cyborgs and naturals is bigger than the difference between gym bros and weaklings. Ok, fine, but that feels like a bit of goalpost moving to me.

A guy who owns a gun in real life could already potentially kill me with it, since I don't own a gun. A man in a car is much more dangerous than a pedestrian. Etc. Why does having more power than someone suddenly become such a big deal when that power comes from a cyberlimb?

>>55381864
>surely getting things wired into my nervous system can't be bad for my brain

Are you going to address an argument that someone actually made?

>>55381884
Not that guy, but many countries do severely restrict firearms ownership. Car luse and ownership is also typically somewhat restricted as well.

>>55381915

Yeah but no one makes the argument that owning guns or cars makes you less human, or at least it's not a common argument.

If cybernetics existed but you had to get a license to own them, that wouldn't be too surprising.

Cyberpunk is dystopian, that's why Cyberware fucks you up. It's not meant to be Transhuman Space tiers of "look how tech can help us," it's supposed to be "look how tech can hurt us."

>>55381947
>"look how tech can hurt us."

There are better ways of doing this though, than pretending there's some ineffable essence that gets chipped away if you buy the wrong kind of prosthetics.

>>55381893
But I am. Observe >>55365776, the post that started this shitting.

>>55381946
That's true enough, but my point was that people do view gun owners and car owners with a degree of caution (caution enough to support such policies anyway).

With gun ownership, you often do see from people very against firearm ownership a lot of dehumanization in their rhetoric and caricature; but I think that's just your standard political dehumanization.

That said, I think I should have read the conversation first before posting because I saw something on the front page. Because I really don't think people would view cybernetics as dehumanizing, anymore than they would view prosthetics as dehumanizing (which is to say I think people would often be a bit uncomfortable at the sight of some, but they wouldn't view a guy with a cybernetic hand as inhuman). The main sticking point I can see is that in a world of augmentative cybernetics, people might come to associated them strictly with augmentation, and possibly some nastier connotations of they ever became associated with high-profile criminals.

>>55381962

No you're not.

"Cybernetics are not inherently harmful" is not equivalent to "Cybernetics could never possibly be harmful"

It's like you can't even read.

>>55381961
Depending on the setting, said essence is your actual life energy.

>>55381961
It's partially to keep in the theme of the genre, and partially for game mechanic reasons. They wanted to make it so not everyone could or necessarily wanted to be a chromed killing machine. Also, cyberpsychosis, in 2020 at least, leads to awesome shit like Boostergangs (gangs of cyberpsycho who want to push themselves to the maximum synthetic edge).

>>55381947
I honestly didn't get that impression from Neuromancer at least. The general impression seemed to be "people will still be dicks, regardless of tech."

>>55381988
Neuromancer funny enough is a very poor example of the genre. The genre would later become far more solidified in themes and settings as the 1980s progressed, with Hardwired, When Gravity Fails, and the end of the Sprawl Trilogy being far better examples than Neuromancer ever was.

>>55381961
>pretending

Not that I necessarily agree with them, but what if some form of philosophical metaphysical essentialism proves true?

>>55382005
Well that's kind of disappointing. I don't think I want to get into the genre if it goes full preacher like that.

>>55381988

My introduction to Cyberpuk is the game Deus Ex. The main character is not only cybered up, but also is a clone of a guy who was genetically engineered from the ground up. He's as artificial as a person can get without just being an android, and yet the game doesn't try to throw any bullshit in my face about how he doesn't count as a real person because of XYZ.

>>55382006

Then I have a lot more things to worry about than cyberlimbs.

>>55382016
It's not meant to be preachy, it's meant to be dystopic. It assumes the absolute worst will always happen.

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>>55332007

I prefer GURPS, but apparantly you're a faggot that hates rules and spending time making characters. So here, play this.

Or Eclipse Phase, if you don't mind more sci-fi in your cyberpunk.

>>55382018
Deus Ex is only tangentially related to the cyberpunk genre. The whole illuminati and MJ12 thing really takes a right turn out of Cyberpunk and more in to near future conspiracy.

>>55382018
Because Deus Ex is more post-cyberpunk than regular cyberpunk.

>>55382030
Dystopic fiction is almost universally pushing some sort of ideal by showing the worst case scenario of an ideal your opposed to.

Regardless, dystopian fiction seems to almost universally suck.

>>55381979
This.

>>55381979
>"Cybernetics are not inherently harmful" is not equivalent to "Cybernetics could never possibly be harmful"
Is not what was written.

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>>55382035
>WORLD
>BUILDING

>>55382044
Sure, but you can always ignore the ideal being pushed and just enjoy the setting at face value rather than digging in to its deeper themes and what it's trying to "push" on you.

In fact, most if not all media is trying to "push" something on the consumer. Whether that's a moral, an ideal, a feeling, etc. It's sort of what media is for.

>>55382072
Tell me what's wrong with it as though I don't know anything about geo-politics.

And don't say anything about straight borders, because the US and Canada have one already.

>>55382038
>>55382043

alright, I guess I really don't like Cyberpunk then

>>55382096
I hate stairs.

>>55382072

>Texas

fucking amazing

>>55382085
I really don't like any form of technophobia or idealistic primitivism. It's one thing to be cautious about technology, it's entirely another to push the idea that technology that could allow amputees to have their original lives back will make them less human for it. It's an obnoxious message that I don't think I could overlook.

>>55382087
China invading Russia would result in a nuclear conflict that would end China's hopes and dreams (As evidenced from the USSR's plans if China invaded them).

Literally no border changes in Europe, a region that while stable for now, is famous for bouts of instability and border changes. Considering the world has gone to shit, it's odd to see Europe still as it was circa 1991.

Central African Union makes zero sense, as literally everyone in that region fucking HATES eachother. An example is the Great War of Africa, which had Zaire being a battleground for far too many factions to count, with nearly all of Africa participating to some degree.

Brazil holding so many Hispanic lands is really unlikely, especially when Argentina and Chile are relatively anti-Brazil.

Colombian Cartels (which is spelled wrong) is a very vague concept and doesn't really make much sense. I can only assume it's a warzone filled with cartels, but typically even in areas where borders are in flux (See early cold war Africa) you still have national entities and borders.

Republic of Caledonia doesn't make much sense, considering that I have only met one other British Columbian who even knows what Caledonia is. The balkanization of BC is also really weird, and doesn't make much sense considering we don't have any really big ethnic or cultural divisions.

The Arctic League is pretty well impossible to sustain, as it has a minuscule population with zero agriculture.

China successfully occupying all the land it does is a pipe dream. While they have manpower, they are also occupying at least five different fiercely independent nations.

There's probably more but I hope you get the gist. It's not even that I have no suspension of disbelief, it's that all the borders and nations in this are just lazy as fuck and stereotypical.

>>55382110

pretty much this

>>55382110
So don't play cyberpunk. Play Transhuman Space or Eclipse Phase or Infinity one of the other post-cyberpunk games.

>>55382087
They have mashed everything outside of Western Europe and North America up into nonsensical super blocs because the creator is too lazy, ignorant, or disinterested to do anything with them.
It's one of the most obnoxious tropes that shows up in alt-history and science fiction and that map is a particularly egregious example of it.

>>55382110>>55382153

Amputees getting functioning limbs back isn't making them less human (although I think it can definitely make them FEEL less human, knowing that your limbs are metal and plastic instead of flesh and bone, but not to the degree of psychosis... probably).

That, I think, is not the point of the whole cyber-psychosis thing. You get a replacement for something you have lost, so it probably evens out... unless any and all neural interface thing does affect you psychologically, which you gotta admit, is possible, as well as just the fact that replacement limbs will probably never, ever feel like the natural thing, but this is already a thing with current prosthetics.

The whole psychosis thing, when divorced from the baseline of "these wires are going into your brain" boogieman, kicks in when you abandon your natural body to get an improvement. It's like plastic surgery craze, except with guns and wolverine claws, and wired reflexes.

Yes, there are people who can deal with this. No, this doesn't mean it can't exist. Wanting a perfect future where technology has 0 drawbacks is just as stupid as thinking all advances will only make the world worse.

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>>55382096
>>55382101
>>55382110
Okay, then you don't like cyberpunk. Good for you. The genre is, again, just trying to be as dystopic as it can be. If you want something more realistic and within the realm of pro-Transhumanism, go read Transhuman Space.

I'm not shitting you, Transhuman Space is an excellent, extremely well researched, and philosophically intriguing setting. While 1984 and 2020 may be pushing an agenda, Transhuman Space is made to simply look in to the future from an objective point of view.

>>55382166
That was my plan. I said from the outset, that I don't think I want to get into this genre because of that. Neuromancer had me hopeful for the genre, but hopes so rarely hold up.

>>55382173
>unless any and all neural interface thing does affect you psychologically, which you gotta admit, is possible

My real arm has a neural interface with my brain, so no, not "any and all"

>>55382177
Yeah... but GURPS. No thanks.

>>55382182

Well, would you say for certain that your psychology isn't different because you have that? That you wouldn1t be psychologically different if you had a dead arm hanging at your side that you couldn't move?

I can be obtuse too.

>>55382191
There is literally nothing wrong with GURPS. In fact, it works extremely well for THS' setting.

>>55382193

Yeah I can, because a psychosis that the entire world suffers from isn't a psychosis at all.

>>55382191
Do you have a reason beyond le too complicated meme? THS is actually available as its own standalone book with Lite in the back, so that ain't going to hold water.

Has anyone that's an actual psychologist written something about cyberpunk?

>>55382196
If you don't mind frontloading work on the GM and players. It's a game for the sort of person who can't handle not having absolutely every detail of their character fleshed out.

>>55382202
>>55382193

Also I can say for certain that that isn't the case because one time I slept on my arm, cutting off circulation for so long that when I woke up my brain no longer recognized the arm as mine. for a few minutes I just had this alien chunk of flesh that might as well have been someone else's dangling off me, and it didn't really cause anything to happen to me psychologically.

>>55382202
You fucking know I meant synthetic neural interfaces (you know the "wire goes into your brain" thing) affecting you differently than the natural ones you are born with, but whatever. If you are really, seriously this resistant to the idea that an imperfect technology can affect peoples psyche negatively there's really no point in this.

>>55382203
It's a beancounter's game. The mechanics are simple, but the game itself is for fussy sorts that want an excessive amount of detail.

I'm not even sure why I'm discussing this at this point. I'm not the OP, and I meant I don't want to get into cyberpunk as a literary genre. I certainly don't want to debate the merits of GURPS any further, because I know GURPS fans will not let go any instance of someone saying they don't like GURPS, as though not liking GURPS were a personal affront.

>>55382218
>this thing that happened to me for 30 seconds didn't affect me
>so obviously, this other thing that is irrevocably forever for the rest of my life won't

>>55382222
>can

There you go, trying to get away with that sleight of hand again. There's a big difference between "can" and "always does"

>>55382231

30 seconds longer than any counter-anecdote you have

>>55382212
That's really not correct. I can name several games that have a lot more things about characters fleshed out. I'm kind of questioning whether or not you actually know GURPS.

>>55382212
>Has anyone that's an actual psychologist written something about cyberpunk?
Hypothetically synthetic implants, replacements, etc, can cause various types and degrees of disassociation, but we don't really have enough people subject to such a thing to really be sure.

Consider it like the feeling of moving in to a new home, if that makes sense. Typically you like it, but there's always that feeling of unease, of it not being yours, at least for a little while.

>>55382249
I can name a lot more that have a lot less. Excessive detail is both relative and subjective. I feel GURPS is too detail-oriented. I'm just going to close my role in the discussion here, because I don't really feel the need to go beyond that. I'm not OP, this is not my thread, and I got wrapped up in a point.

>>55382276
Okay, so you like FATE more. I'm still going to say you're missing out on one of the best settings around.

>>55382230
Because 99% of the time the only reason an OP has "no GURPS" is because of oh so funny irrelevant GURPS memes, not from any contact with the system or actual players.

>>55382270
I recall with facial surgery, it can take a patient time to adapt and there can be far-reaching psychological effects.

It's not that I think the idea of psychological changes from cybernetics are implausible, I just don't buy the cyberpsychosis bit.

>>55382218
>what is alien hand syndrome

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>>55382230
>I meant I don't want to get into cyberpunk as a literary genre.
Why the fuck did you even come here, then?

Regardless, if you want some book recommendations (no cyberpunk included), check out Transhuman Space's Bibliography (pic related). Have the core book anyway. Read the fluff, steal from the fluff, berate the fluff because it's 15 years old and there's bound to be something funky in it. Pay as much or as little attention to the system as you like. https://mega.nz/#!d1QVwIaK!WoQSiYFtbSJfuyoLk3tVtsnO3A6hXzMdTIFVFxCAnXw

>>55382297
It's it taken to the extreme. If you want a more in-depth view of cyberpsychosis, I'd recommend 2020's "Grimm's Cybertales" book. It elaborates and expands on cyberpsychosis in a way that makes it seem far more plausible. To give the shortest synopsis I can, it breaks down the symptoms in to Alienation, Paranoia, Obsession, and Egotism. I'm sure you can see how each of those things can fit in to getting cyberware.

>>55382322
Call THS alternate history and it still stands up today, I think. The tech certainly does, anyways, and the geopolitics aren't too far out there. God damn the setting is well written.

Though, it does kind of reek of post Cold War optimism. Korea and Taiwan reunifying come to mind, but not too much else I suppose.

>>55382297
That's because with facial surgury, you suffer an inverse form of body dysmorphia - your face literally isn't your face anymore, and your brain freaks out.

In the case of psyberpsychosis, there are two things happening, not one - you are recieving far more powerful and alien grafts, and they are - this is important - hard wired into your brain through invasive surgery. In othermwords, not only are you replacing your body with parts that are inherently BETTER, they are being added along with radical restructuring of your BRAIN and thought processes to cope with the new tools you have added to your body. It's not like gettign a prosthetic or a replacement, you're literally reshaping your neural pathways and changign the way your body works in ways it's not designed to work at all.

If it's a prosthetic, that's not so bad, but when you move past prosthetic and into weapons grade augmentation, you're no longer replacing a body part, your redesigning your brain and body in ways that are acutely not natural to either.

>>55382322
>Why the fuck did you even come here, then?

Oh that's easy. My contact with the genre up until this thread was Neuromancer and Snow Crash. I adore the first, and the second fell under "goofy but basically enjoyable." Finding out that the genre is typified by technophobic dystopias was a disappointment.

>>55382345
>not natural

you almost had me. Fuck off, the best thing about human beings is when we make nature our bitch and change the things the natural world fucked up.

>>55382345
I get the rationale, I just don't buy it. It's too bluntly dramatic, and kinda reminds me of that scene in Dagon where the dude loses his mind looking at the thing rather than any progress of psychological alteration.

I suspect this kind of stuff is where you start seeing post-cyberpunk cropping up from. People questioning, altering, or outright rejecting the fundamental caveats of the genre.

>>55382373
Not even that. Everything we do is natural. We're a tool using species.

>>55382347
Weirdly, it doesn't.

Sure, that's the case for RPGs, but the classics of cyberpunk, Bladerunner, Ghost in the Shell, and Neuromancer all come down firmly on the side of the idea that humanity is defined by a desire to be human and empathy for others, not by the physical body.

>>55382373
Your brain can get confused by shadows, what makes you think wiring a tape deck into it won't confuse it more?

>>55382396
Bladerunner and GitS are not examples of cyberpunk, while Neuromancer is a very poor example of cyberpunk (it being the first and all).

>>55382409
Wouldn't being the first mean that it has the most authentic claim?

It's probably the most successful as a literary piece, being widely recognized as a classic piece of science fiction as well.

>>55382347
>Snow Crash
You know the bit where Hiro gets made fun of for being a gargoyle?

>>55382005
In Hardwired, cyberware doesn't have a negative connotation at all.

>>55382403
>>55382373
>>55382384
HFY.

That is all.

Because seriously, these people are under the impression that you don't have to worry about people shoving things in your brain, because you can tolerate it perfectly fine with no side effects, when it's pretty goddamn clear that fucking around with the brain even in minor ways can lead to things even worse than psychosis.

>>55382416
Yes and no. It cemented the genre, but did very little to elaborate on it.

>>55382384
I think you'd get plenty of people that are fucked up in other ways willing to undergo radical invasive surgery for power over others and doing violent, irrational things, less because the cybernetics then because they have power over others that divorces them from the normal consequences that would inhibit them.

Bullies, beast and assholes will still be around if you have augmentation, and will want augmentation. It's a very bad self-reinforcing cycle, even if nerve/machine interfaces cause no real psychological damage.

>>55382416
>Wouldn't being the first mean that it has the most authentic claim?
No. Being the first just means it's the first. It's entirely possible for things that aren't the originators of a genre to define the genre better than their predecessors.

>>55382428
Cyberpsychosis exists in Hardwired. Thatches, remember?

>>55382409

>Bladerunner and GitS are not examples of cyberpunk,

They are literally the magnum opus that define the genera.

>>55382445
GitS is post-cyberpunk.

>>55382416
The first ones of basically every single genre defining work also work as deconstructions/alternative takes, because the genre rules weren't established yet.

>>55382445
I don't remember Bladerunner being very cyberpunk, aside from the aesthetic. The replicants are biological, for one.

GitS, yeah, but it does deal with losing the "humanness" of yourself, it just reaches a different conclusion.

>>55382451
I guess that works.

>>55382420
That's because gargoyles are not cool folks who drape themselves with tech and sit in places for hours at a time spying on others.
Not because lel tech is bad.

>>55382445
No. Blade Runner defines the aesthetic, sure, but it is missing many key elements of the genre.

GitS is an excellent example of Post-Cyberpunk, and Japanese Cyberpunk. Not the American-1980's-centric Cyberpunk genre.

>>55382466
>lel tech is bad.
There's a difference between "wiring shit into your brain will have negative consequences" and "the weaving loom was a mistake, we should never have gone past farming".

>>55382403

your brain can also learn that it gets confused by shadows and rationally decide not to believe every crazy thing it thinks it saw a shadow do.

>>55382431

>can

see >>55382234

Shoving things into your brain can also be very beneficial. see: brain surgery

Now that the thread is autosaging, it might be worthwhile to mention that in CP2020 cyberpsychosis isn't even a permanent state. You can get therapy that will make you a (mostly) functional citizen again.

>>55382502
>Shoving things into your brain can also be very beneficial. see: brain surgery

brain surgery is usually taking things out that were shoved in (bone chips, bullets, tumors).

>>55382524
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_brain_stimulation

>>55382484
And Hiro never wired tech into his brain by being a Gargoyle.

His girlfriend did but it wasn't looked particularly down upon.

The guy with no legs hardwired into his truck was in no way less human.

The dogs were sweet abominations but no-one said "this is bad and the dogs are less than dogs now because of it". The last dog saving skateboard girl was perhaps the purest empathy in the book.

There's no backlash against cybernetics in Snow Crash. The only thing pulled up was that people dressed in stalker gear and who stalk people for days is creepy.

Read the post mine links back and understand the comment on gargoyles was specific to the argument about Snow Crash instead of jumping to the conclusion it's a general statement for all cyberpunk.

>>55382504
Step 1: remove augmentation

>>55382472
No, it's not. It's literally, not figuratively, the textbook definition of cyberpunk.

Also, there was no American-centric cyberpunk. What is the setting of Nuromancer?

>>55382563
American centric. It is based around American visions, fears, etc, of the future. I don't mean geographically centric, I mean thematically centric.

>>55382556
Actually, step one is turn it off. Then a few weeks of therapy and you're back up to normal, ready to go cram more metal into your head. Presumably part of the early stages involves mantras like "Meat is not for murder".

>>55382583
Really? I need to go doublecheck. I was pretty sure the first step was to get it removed.

>it costs 5 credits to lower your cha, via buying a straight razor

>>55382687
pp 74 and 75. You can decrease your HC by two a week if you're a registered cyborg and go to your therapy sessions, or if you flip your lid and get captured by the Psycho Squad they'll strap you down on the couch, switch off everything they can, plug you into braindance, and put you back together at the rate of 2 EMP (or 20 HC) a week. Though I missed the bit that says "Once all cybernetics are removed or deactivated", which presumably is there to cover ones that just plug into other shit.

Don't even lose the implants, so technically you can keep buying chrome and going to therapy until your GM says "you have nowhere to put that".

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>>55382443
That's what you imply. Here is what is written about thatches:

"Whores offer fantasy. They get good at figuring out what their customers want, and how well they latch onto those fantasies has a lot to do with how well they get paid. It's fake, but most of the customers don't notice, or care. These other people, the ones who want reality-they care. They want things to be real. Real sex, real orgasms. Real love, even. And when they don't get it, they get mad. They want what happens between them and their boy to be real. Even if they have to torture him to death to get a real reaction. People like that are called thatch."

There's zero mention of cyberware. They are just psychos who might or might not have cyberware.

>>55382720
They unplug everything that isn't vital, the patient undergoes a therapy and is then free to go, but it is nowhere written that the cyberware gets plugged back in. Heck, I'd even assume that all gear that can be removed, will then be sold to cover the costs of the capture and therapy. The character might need someone to come to pick him up in the clinic since he might not be able to move by himself (difficult to walk around without legs and arms).

>>55383153
No, they just turn it off for the duration of the repair. It doesn't say either way, so it's whatever your GM decides on.

Not like that applies to the regular therapy sessions either, they're just a whole lot slower.

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>>55383402
As a GM who has GMd Cyberpunk 2020 for over 20 years I have to say that I never had a character that went into therapy. All my players were either scared of losing their favorite characters to cyberpsychosis, too broke to afford that much cyberware, or died before reaching this point.

>>55383538
I was meaning the stuff you get for being a registered cyborg. They make you take therapy which removes 2 HC per week.

Nobody registers their implants, though. Not even the Corp or Cop, for whom it'd actually make sense.

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>>55383570
In my opinion this leads to too much munchkining. If a character becomes a cyberpsycho, therapy should only bring him back to EMP 2 or 3 (and he probably gets some "suicide" chip implanted just in case he goes over the edge again).

>>55383756
>If a character becomes a cyberpsycho,
But this isn't therapy because you became a cyberpsycho, this is therapy because you've registered your cybernetic arm or whatever. I get what you're saying, but it doesn't work because you can take like 4 HC from having an arm out in and still be put on the therapy regimen.

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>>55383790
It's not what I mean. What I want to avoid is having a munchkin player who sees that his character has for example only 16 points of humanity left. Because the player still wants to add tons of combat cyberware on his character, he sends him preventively to therapy until humanity is back to normal despite all the cyberware he already has.

Example: A fictive character has EMP 6. He starts the game with humanity at 60. During the course of the game the character gets 2x cyberarms, 2x cyberlegs, 1x cyberoptics with anti-dazzle and low-light vision, 1x neural processor, 1x interface plugs, 1x Kerenzikov Lvl. 2, 1x wolvers. Total humanity loss is 54 (example). The character's EMP sinks to 1. Now, the player wants to further increase the character's cyberware, but he cannot because of imminent cyberpsychosis. So, he sends his character to therapy. The character spends 20 weeks in therapy between sessions, and gets 40 humanity points back to add more cyberware. Once those 40 points are used, the player sends the character back to therapy.

There should be a limit to how much humanity therapy can restore.

>>55384022

So you want people to get a much more limited benefit from actually going through the hours and costs of Therapy?

Honestly, I prefer it this way as it means that every cybernutter didn't start off as a saint in order to afford his 'ware.

>>55384022
I don't know how CP2020 handles it, but Shadowrun uses "Essence Holes"
you start with 6 Essence, cyber and bio reduces your Essence. once it reaches 0 you die.
When you remove Ware your essence status the same, but you get an essence hole, which gets filled first when getting ware. When using your Essence you roll natural essence, but for augmentation you first use the essence hole. There are therapies that restore essence holes.

Maybe do the same? Your character starts with e.g. EMP 6 and humanity 60
you lose 54 points bringing you to humanity 6(60) and EMP 1(6)
let's say you then remove 7 points of ware, giving you a 7 point humanity hole. you then may do therapy to bring you back to humanity 13(60) and your EMP back to 2(6)
if theoretically you sold all your ware and got natural limbs again you could go into therapy and get back to humanity 60 and EMP 6

>>55384238
That's exactly how I would do it. But, I understand if some people prefer the normal system which allows you to get more metal grafted.