/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

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First for Arisen funk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZPsy5fYL1c

>>55295576
>How would you fix/change Mage?
First page, big capital letters:
"Mages are more powerful than every other Supernatural group. We apologise for the inconvenience."

>>55295621
And like an idiot I link the one with shit tier sound quality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iUghiwTFIA

>>55295576
Aren't Obrimost the mages most likely to be religious?

>>55295681
Yes.

On the flip side, they're also the most likely to come from a scientific background.

>>55295707
Mastigos as well, but those are more "hey fuck you, fuck your system, I'm going to poke as many fucking holes in it as I can, you can't tell me what to do" type guys.

The more free-thinker scientists who either crash and burn, or find something amazing.

>>55295681
They're the most likely to believe in firm laws and ordered structures, things like that.

How viable would a Veiling spell of Time be that effectively "lies" about events that the subject is involved in? Like say somebody is casting Divination, or using another way of telling the future, and the subject is directly involved in the future the person is trying to read. The Veiling spell, if not beaten out by Potency or a Clash or something, garbles their readings or outright turns them into lies.

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>>55295576
>Ascension
tweak the Disparate alliance a bit, i don't really care much for them.
>Awakening
More sci-fi stuff, like mages building space ships and doing space wizard stuff more often.

>>55295950
I'd think outright lies would be a weaving level effect, but static and other shit sounds like veiling.

>>55295959
Well I say Veiling because it's not so much a change as it is an obfuscation, and an active effect on a subject with a Duration and all that jazz.

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>>55295951
>More sci-fi stuff, like mages building space ships and doing space wizard stuff more often.

>>55296073
>Coolest faction in oMage was Etherites
>Get rid of them

>>55296102
I'm not saying to get rid of anything.

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>>55296102
>Coolest faction in oMage was Etherites

>>55295951
>More sci-fi stuff, like mages building space ships and doing space wizard stuff more often
DaveB weighed into this on the Discord, basically saying that yes, Mages can teleport to the Moon, Mars, can built spaceships, travel for thousands of years in suspended animation, all that jazz.

But that Space is ultimately mostly empty, and bar some strange alien Spirits, or wanting to say that some weird supernatural stuff happens outside of the earth, Space is really pretty boring and devoid of Mysteries.

Of course, a Mars Sanctum would be pretty secure against non-Mage intrusion.
Better make sure all your protective spells are properly relinquished though.

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Ascension Factions:

God Tier:
>Etherites, Void Engineers, Order of Hermes, Taftani

Good Tier:
>Akashic Brotherhood, Celestial Chorus, Technocracy [Other Conventions] Wu Lung, Ahl-i-Batin

Okay Tier:
>Verbena, Euthanatos, Dreamspeakers, Cult of Ecstacy

There are no Shit factions other then certain Crafts.

>>55296215
Virtual Adepts should be Good-tier. Also forgot to link
>>55296144
>>55296129

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>>55296215
This anon knows what's up.

>>55296215
The Nephandi has transitioned back and forth from God Tier to Okay Tier depending on the edition and relevant supplements.

>>55296181
That's fucking retarded and lazy on DaveBs part and only an excuse why there aren't any aliens or aliens that ascended before the Exarchs. You will not convince me that humans are the only sapient species in the galaxy let alone there are no mysteries in the cosmos.

>>55296303
I don't doubt that there aren't any aliens, just that humans for some reason are the only ones with access to the Supernal.

It was like this in OWoD as well. Humans were strange to the reptilians and greys, the former even trying to steal our magic.

>>55296303
Imperial magic is cosmic, its entirely possible the Exarchs erased all alien life when they ascended. The solution to the Fermi Paradox is "A wizard did it"

>>55296320
switch 'aren't to 'are', my bad.

>>55296320
>>55296323
>>55296336
So it's a case of HMFY

Nice

>>55296303
To me it's actually sensible. Not in the context of what's likely out in space, but in what it means for Awakening, and whether or not there should be outer space stuff in the game. I doubt that "space is empty" is Dave trying to establish what's out in space but rather saying in a roundabout way that outer space is by and large irrelevant to Awakening, and you shouldn't be expecting any canon material about it.

>>55296320
In my Ascension campaign the universe literally ends at heliopause and everything past that is reality entirely defined by the beliefs of those traveling out that far. You could encounter entirely Interstellar civilizations [if that fit your paradigm] that vanish like smoke when another traveler tries to find them in his spaceship.

>>55296347
It's by no means HFY. These are just theories, essentially headcanon.

>>55296347
To be fair, the Exarchs are hardly human.

>>55296409
Well, in terms of Awakening.

>>55296144
Why?

>>55296394
It's already like that. The Deep Umbra is literally infinite.

>>55296410
Well, the Exarchs were once the tyrannical wizard-kings of 'Atlantis'. Ascendants were once human, Supernal natives weren't.

Weren't dragons wizards before humans were?

>>55296410
The Exarchs are what happens when humans Ascend and interfere with things they're not supposed to.
Before the Fall the universe functioned based on Supernal Gods, now it functions based on Supernal 'Man'. Human oppression at that.

It's like the Olympian Gods throwing down the Primordial Titans, only in this case the humans usurped the gods.

>>55296461
Those Atlantean dragons may or may not have existed. Mages saw them in in a city, but that city was 'empty' when they actually got there.

Kind of spooky.

>>55296484
>t. Alienated

>>55296507
It was an island, I believe. They built the city once they arrived.

The dragons were probably a Supernal metaphor to get all the worlds Mages to unify in one place and build Atlantis.

>>55296303
It's probably just a fan theory but I felt like Imperial Mysteries and that book about summoning were implying that the anthropocentric parts of the Supernal and maybe even the Abyss (less likely but not impossible) are just local and if you go far enough you will find parts of the fallen world connected to Old Gods dominated parts of the Supernal.

>>55296461
That's the implication from the Dragon-Bone Sarisas, the fact that Dragons are a potent Supernal symbol, the existence of a pre-atlantean society which uniformly ascended, and the fact that despite there being Draconic symbolism all across the world, there are no actual supernatural 'Dragons' (I think).

>>55296561
The Supernal is dominated by the Exarchs. There are small little areas where the Supernal natives managed to proclaim their own dominance called Dhatus.

>>55296461
Depends on what you think La Vouivre is, I don't remember if she is summoned like "Outer Spirits" or like a Supernal entity.

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There was no single Atlantis. There were multiple. Only one of them became powerful enough to fuck over everything and pull the Abyss out of its ass.

Or maybe the Abyss always was.

>>55296642
>There was no single Atlantis
Impossible to determine, given that reality was broken and remade, with the concept of Alantis roughly excised, its shattered fragments falling to earth to manifest in various cultures all throughout the new world.

>>55296614
Archmasters have a limited travel range in the Supernal and it's explicitely said that they expect very inhuman symbols like the Old Gods of Thistle to be beyond what they can access.

>>55296642
I believe Dave labeled Arthurian Britain as an example of a lost civilization that never 'was'.

Not a full-blown Atlanteanesque culture mind you, but an example of a society no longer existent.

>>55296484
Not quite, guy. Mages are supposed to Ascend. It's something of a natural conclusion for them, to rejoin magic at its source, to be one with it. The Exarchs fucked shit up not by Ascending, but by Ascending forcefully and prematurely. The Fall was caused when they shattered the reality-pervasive spire they used to Ascend, violating reality on a fundamental level. The Gate supposedly negotiated with the Abyss to create the Lie, and the other Exarchs tried to wipe away as many traces of magic as they could, so they could hoard the Supernal to themselves. Iirc they became tyrannical symbols because of the nature of their Ascension, oppressing others and lording power over them, and so on.

There are Mages who have Ascended harmlessly. Or rather, their Ascension didn't cause harm per se. Merlin. Xeras, Phrygia. Other mentions are made to Ascended Mages throughout the books in a general sense.

>>55296652
Exactly. The Old Gods of the Thistle are actually an example of Supernal natives belonging to a Dhatu. They managed to hide from the Exarchs well enough.

>>55296668
>Xeras
>Phrygia

Who? Were they Archmages or Legacy savants?

>>55296642
Atlantis existed, reality was just too broken and the actual prosaic city was retconned hard, leaving only the symbol of a fallen city of magical wonder.
Ruins themselves are just manifestations of it, so while the supernal truth is the same, all mundane details will be unique and incomptatible with other ruins.

>>55296713
They're just Mages mentioned as being Ascended in 2e. No real details beyond that.

>>55296716
Yes, but those ruins aren't necessarily of the same origin/culture.

>>55296668
Don't forget the Corpus Author, who created the Mysterium as we know it, and Hyperion, who when he ascended in 1977, took the Unconquered Church with him, leaving Christianity to be retconned into taking up its role in world history.

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What would a Vampire think to himself if he was in the midst of a lengthy and heated Mage philosophical discussion?

Interesting? Bored? Incomprehensible?

>>55296796
Incomprehensible.

Probably nervous once the sparks start flying.

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>>55296796
"Jesus, what a bunch of entitled pricks"

>>55296796
In Ascension one of the books has just such an event happen, a Vampire finds himself in the company of a Void Engineer and some other supernaturals all just chilling around a campfire and the Void Engineer starts explaining all this Deep Umbral shit and the Vampire's response is to call bullshit and explain that he's centuries old and hasn't ever heard of something that ridiculous.

I assume Awakening would be slightly more comprehensible since its just one crazy worldview instead of 50 competing ones. If anything the moral that "The gods are giant green assholes" is probably something a Vampire could get behind.

>>55296782
I don't think the Corpus Author is mentioned as being Ascended. Just an Archmaster, possibly.

>>55296838
...Are you retarded or what?

>>55296303
>e why there aren't any aliens
I swear to fucking god, does nobody read Mummy?

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>>55296838
It's not explicitly stated in the book, but the fact that she sends Ochemata in her place, and the fact that DaveB describes her revolution of the Mysterium as her Noumenon (which she achieved) all but confirms she Ascended.

However unlike that shitcunt Merlin, she actually cares about her old Order.

>>55296881
>mfw everything beyond Pluto is the Lower Depths

>>55296881
>does nobody read the most unpopular, confusing, and poorly laid out book of all of CofD?
Shocker, that.

>>55296796
A vampire observing a Consilium meeting would be fucking hilarious.

>>55296931
I don't get why it is so unpopular, the material in it is better a fair few of the other non-big 3 gamelines. The layout is garbage though yes.

>>55296904
Isn't modifying the Supernal itself impossible?

>>55296904
I hope Merlin makes an appearance in Dark Eras: Britain. I doubt it though. Imagine all the 'REEEEEEEEEE'ing over an Archmage in a Mage/Changeling crossover supplement.

>>55296181
>DaveB weighed into this on the Discord, basically saying that yes, Mages can teleport to the Moon, Mars, can built spaceships, travel for thousands of years in suspended animation, all that jazz.
How?

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>>55297039
Well, for a spaceship, I guess you'd build yourself a big metal shell, cover it in runes and indefinite spells, lose a lot of willpower, maybe make some imbued items with esux to save willpower dots, then hang a big 'sleepers fuck off' sign on the back and go looking for the Czar of Terra.

>>55297083
I wonder why they never did things like that for the Free Council or more technomancy, kinda a staple of urban fantasy.

>>55296881
>>55296998
Well smart ass mummyfag enlighten us why there aren't any aliens

>>55297114
Probably because it's ludicrously difficult. And because you can find a shortcut on the astral. There's aspects of it in the techne merit, as well as things like that alienist cabal who kept capturing and 'transmitting' random 'aliens'. And so they can thematically break from cWoD.

>>55297138
There are aliens. They're dicks, and have a grudge with the shan'iatu so they enjoy fucking with mummies since the shan'iatu are long gone to a place they cannot follow.

There's even rules for a type of them as Immortals in the Dark Eras Companion chapter for Alexandrian mummy.

>>55297001
Ascension is literally re-writing, or writing new Supernal symbols.

>>55297028
DaveB said it's possible he might take a look down at what people are doing to his 'creation'

>>55297039
Uh... Using sympathy (or sensory/remote range) to teleport, or just building a spaceship, then using all kinds of magic to make it fly faster, and better?

No need to worry about travel time when you can put yourself in suspended animation, then write more time onto the timeline for your shapeship to travel in.

>>55297187
Don't forget that the Cheiron group board are all aliens too. Wheee!

>>55295576
>How would you fix/change Mage?

Ascension: Grab M20 and trim it down and purge the stupid rules. Grab "How do you do that?" and throw it into a fire.

Add a sidebar saying "yes, you can be technically by raw be a Virtual adept that cast magic with yoga pants. However the Dm can say no on the basis that your paradigm doesnt mesh with the tradition"

Black List Brucatto.

Awakening: Make archamges NPC only material. Nerf them or put a chronicle guide to nerf them as an optional material. Cancel Deviant and put that money to pay Dave for the FAQ.

>>55297246
>Black List Brucatto.
No, kidnap him, take him to a con, lock him in a room, tied to a chair. Offer people the chance to pay 20 bucks to spit on him.

>>55297190
>DaveB said it's possible he might take a look down at what people are doing to his 'creation'

Where did he say this?

Isn't the Anima Mundi and the Shadow a bit rebundant?

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>>55297296

>>55297305
Not really. The Shadow is just a reflection of animistic world taken to 11 and severed thanks to early era fuckery, varying by splat. The Anima Mundi is the soul of the world and was always seperate.

>>55297305
Slightly, it's quite weird as Werewolves have some connection to the Anima Mundai.

Really though, the Anima Mundai is the soul of the world, the Shadow is the mystical shadow-dimension, which is empowered by, and influences reality.

>>55297340
>Slightly, it's quite weird as Werewolves have some connection to the Anima Mundai.
I always thought a Werewolf/Mage game about a pack of Werewolves learning about that wellspring that causes people to Awaken in the Anima Mundi, looking for a way to reach it, and than exploring the ramifications of becoming a Magewolf could be really fun.

>>55297443
>Mixing splats

You sicken me. Crossover is one thing, this is another

>>55297333
>>55297340
How do you know if a shamanistic legacy has Spirit or Mind then?

>>55297443

Isn't there some rule that prevents this in COFD?

I think in cWoD it is possible to mix splats though.
I think a mage can become a garou using that skindancer rite, but IIRC that requires making a fursuit out of 5 werewolves.

>>55297615
You can't mix or alter Templates in CofD. Not without Archmastery.

>>55297443
>>55297615

>>55297598
Could be both, but it depends on how it deals with the spirits. Spirits for the 'gross' version, probably paired with something like fate to act as an ambassador to the spirits. Mind paired with.. life? Time? Something like that for the kind that's going through dreamquests in the Astral. The first one goes directly to the 'first level' of contact and is the more traditional Jap/Korean kind, with shrines to tend and offerings to burn. The second is bypassing that and bothering the things in the soul of the world for insight, the tribal who takes a shitload of mescaline and wanders into the desert, less concerned with worldly matters.

What happens after death?

>>55297742
If you're really, really attached to something you stay as a ghost. Otherwise, nobody knows.

Tell me, /wodg/, do you believe in things you cannot see?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG_0fna99p0

>>55297728
Thanks, I think it's a good way to think about it, what kind do you think woule have a legacy of "internet shamen"?

>>55297672
It can turn things from the Anima Mundi into Mages, but more importantly it could be a fun story.

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Alright gentlemen, how do we fix 5th edition?

>>55297792
Free council, probably a mastigos or a thrysus. One with a mix of space/mind as secondary and forces as primary, focused entirely on using electronics as a method of peering through to determine intent of the user in the physical and trying to get at the 'source code' of the world out in the astral. The second with forces as primary again, spirit as a secondary based around using a computer to determine the local state of health in the Shadow and Sleepers through a 'shadow network' and seeking to correct it. One's paradigm would be the source code of reality, the other would be perfection of the 'front end'.

>>55296215
Everyone in your Okay tier is garbage. The Verbs are a shitty pagan pastiche that is the most like what Technocrat fags say all the Traditions are. The Euths are an actual death cult that gets more stupid when WW tried to walk them back from being a death cult, the CoX are DUDE WEED LMAO and their only redeeming feature is starting the Children's Crusade. You could replace them with the Solificati and nobody would notice. The Speakers are a conceptual mess, only saved by their Street Shaman Revised subfactions. If you wanted KANGZ Mages, you could replace them with the Ngoma and be less shitty.

Fuck the Akashics for leaving sick people to die and being chop socky socky five dollar Mages, too. And the Choristers for being too pussy to straight up be "Christian Theurgy" while implying Abrahamic religion is the only correct one. Their M20 example girl is hot in a trashy, alt chick sort of way, which puts them into Okay Tier.

Progs and Nu-woo are cooler than the VEs post Avatar Storm, with their Revised books. Threat Null is dumb.

How this should go is: Taftani > positive portrayal Technocracy > Ex-Crat Traditions >= AiB > negative portrayal Technocracy = Hermetics >= Street Shaman Drramspeakers > Hollow Ones that understand the fundamental mechanical truth of the game > shit > Hollow Ones that are only goth jokes > the other Traditions > anything Phil Brucato likes.

>>55298090
What is a street shaman?

But...
There's already a Legacy of Thyrus Libertine Mind users.

The Dreamspeakers.
They have weird powers like sending part of their mind off to Astral space while the rest works in the physical.
Imploring Goetia for mental enhancements or summoning them to the world.
And 'finally' projecting his Mind into Twilight.

...If I didn't already have a list of other Legacy requests I'm tentatively looking into, I'd work on them as well.
They're pretty fucking weird, and I'd have to try and reconcile them with the new uniform system of Ephemeral entities.

>>55297759
>If you're really, really attached to something you leave a ghost that thinks it's you. Otherwise, nobody knows.

>>55298141
And the cloud infinite sort of fit the mould, but it's less 'inquire into things beyond' and more 'I'm so brilliant I'm using your soul as a server'.

>>55298090
Your opinions are shit.

>>55298167
Much less so, they just draw on the symbology of cloud computing to enact their soul-destroying Mind-hijacking.

They don't focus on the Astral any more than any other Legacy does.
Plus, they're Obrimos.

For real though, from anyone who specifically hates or just moderately is interested in Mummy the Curse, what is your biggest negative

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5mYiIhzyos

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>>55298327
Mummy is pretty cool but the book has a lot wrong with it.
>filled with needlessly complicated jargon that would make the first tongue blush
>no ability to break the cycle of sleep/waking memory loss
>mummys work better alone
>WE

>>55297672
How does archmastery allow you to do it?

So are there any WoD/CofD podcasts worth listening to?

>inb4 Darker Days Radio

>>55298854
Excisions and Entities, seven dots. The 'make your own splat' Practices, crudely put.

Though there's much more to it than that.

>>55298854
Practice of Entities/Excision can add/remove things to supernatural templates.

Such as removing a Vampire's thirst, a Werewolf's need to hunt, or a Changeling's (new) weakness to Iron.

Entities can add stuff, such as making Artifacts, granting people Supernatural powers (making them Proximi), or just more normal non-Supernal stuff like the capacity to shapeshift.

>>55298854
At seven dots Archmages can create and alter Templates.

A fanatical weeaboo Archmage could make Princess: The Hopeful a reality.
A science obsessed Archmage could make Genius: The Transgression a reality
etc...

>>55298890
>>55298891
>>55298913
over-fucking-powered

Don't like it

>>55296215
>>55298090

What is good about the Taftani, and what book talks about them?

>>55298933
That's the entire fucking POINT. Anon.
You're no longer one of the plebs fucking around in the world, you're one of the people who work to re-define it.

Who gives a shit if you can Unmake all of the Vampires in the city?
That won't help you in your desire to redefine the nature of death, and secure a path past the Psychopomp, into the Afterlife.

>>55298933
I hate Mage Supremacy as much as the next guy and I think people bringing up Archmages in discussions is just dick measuring bullshit, but Imperial Mysteries was a great book and an Archmage game sounds fun as fuck.

I am planning a game about fresh out Embrace fledglings and I want it to be about underunderdogs trying to survive. Now, how do you reward your players with cash for quests? Should I just give them one-use dot in Resources or something? I mean all prices in the corebook are represented by them.
How do you reward your players other than with exp?

>>55299012
They're quasi-islamic sorcerers who think it's a religious duty to be as massively vulgar as possible. Like, walk into a town square and shit actual fire vulgar. They also stick genies in bottles a lot.

>>55296303
Isnt its part of the horror? Humanity are alone in a destined to die universe.

>>55298933
Archmages can literally do -anything- given the proper prerequisites.

Calling them overpowered misses the point of their existence.

>>55299045
Cash equipment, or start awarding an extra 1 beat every 3 normally earned that can only be used for resource purchases, or something.

>>55299035
Hey as long as they do it better then a thousand years of night.

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>>55299012
Lost Paths talks about them. Ultra-short version:

Taftani are extremely flamboyant Middle Eastern Zoroastrian mages with a hard-on for fire and a complete hatred of Coincidental magick meaning their number one cause of death is Paradox consuming them.

They command armies of djinn in the modern day, have luxurious lives fueled by magic, and believe magick is synonymous with Truth and death for Truth is worthy of all praise. In short they're suicidal idealists who only survive because they live in the middle of bumfuck nowhere. On the rare occasion they wander into civilization, its to perform massive feats of public magick that cause the Technocracy endless headaches to try and suppress and disguise.

Reasons they're great:
>Hotheaded and passionate, fuel their magic with creative acts [magic bottles, magic carpets, carefully crafted swords or poems]
>All their magick is vulgar
>They love fire
>They're very flavorful in Dream City of Baghdad kind of way.
>They're suicidal idealists, on par with Paladins or Gurren Lagann, kind of that 'live free or die' attitude.
>They use djinn

>>55299031
The other monsters have their own archmage tier bullshit though right? Otherwise I can't see why theyd even allow archmages
>>55299035
this isn't mage supremacy its "i want mages to be the best so iwrote them that way"
>>55299057
Don't care. Playing on the level of gods in a street level game is fucking retarded. and I highly doubt they can do as much as youi seem to think. there's also the pax from what I remember reading in these threads

>>55299046
They are ZOROASTRIAN. Not Islamic!

Has anyone run an Archmage game?

Was it a continuation of another game?

How'd you reconcile if not all your players reached threshold?

How'd you explain how a bunch of people all reached threshold at around the same time?

Did you role-play the entire trial for each individual player?

Did any of your players fail the trial and did you, well, delete them?

>>55299092
No they aren't. They're purely polytheistic, but culturally and practice-wise are quite similar to modern day muslims despire apparently being sumerian/akkadian. Zoroastrianism is a dualistic monotheism, not polytheistic.

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There's always those people complaining about Mages

Then there's THAT guy complaining about Archmages

>>55299113
Yes they are, their book specifically calls them Zoroastrian, their symbol is fire, their god is Ohrmazd. A Taftani would gut you like a pig if you called him a Muslim.

>>55299089
Archmages aren't a street level game.

Regular Mage isn't a street level game.

>>55299089
Because writers need not be concerned with making sure parasiticsl haemovores are just as powerful as people who redefine the basic principles of reality about them.

So stop whining, and realise the books are only cross compatible so that you can include each other as NPCs.

Requiring every faction to be as powerful as each other only makes sense if they're all supposed to work together as per normal.
They're not.

>>55299137
Then their book is self contradictory, and I'd like a page number, please. Their book also talks about how any sort of monotheism is forcibly removed from their apprentices, so it doesn't jive with zoroastrianism. I'm not sure if you're trolling or just lack reading comprehension, because I'm not saying they're muslims. I'm saying culturally they are far more similar to the muslim 'cultural' zeitgeist than anything zoroastrian, despite their ancient origins. Zoroastrianism was influenced by Sumerian practices, sure, but they started long before Zoroastrianism. Any similarities are, ironically, coincidental.

muh game balance

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>>55299173
They're polytheists because they subscribe to the interpretation of Zoroastrianism that its various lesser spirits are gods rather then angel-equivalents. Read Lost Paths, you can call them heretical if you like but everything about them screams Zoroastrianism

>Fire as their symbol
>Zoroastrian terminology is their lexicon
>Primary historical base was Persia

>>55299236
Thanks, but I just searched through that and the only actual mention of zoroastrianism is of Zoro-Chorus mages going to crush them.

Polytheism and animistic beliefs predate zoroastrianism by thousands of years. And like I said, they got their start in Sumer. They predate Zoroastrianism. They aren't Zoroastrian, and having fire as their bag is hardly unique. It was a common thing in that part of the world, mutating into solar worship with things like Egypt and the Zunbil ethnic religion. Any similarities are coincidental.

>>55299267
>Mutating from, and into aspects like solar worship*
Whoops.

>>55299267
No, any similarities are due to the fact that the Mage factions aren't always outright real world philosophies but rather bastardizations of them.

See: The Akashic Brotherhood Tradition Books

The Taftani are Zoroastrian, or rather White Wolf's hackneyed interpretation of Zoroastrian mixed with Umbra cosmology.

>>55299236
Who the fuck thought that it was a good idea to put a picture that obscures letters right in the middle of a page?

>>55299286

The book is like that, I have no idea if its just the scan I have or if the book itself was designed so poorly. Luckily there's only a few pages that do that.

>>55299283
Just saying they are doesn't make it so, anon. No matter how stridently.

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>>55299317
>Their primary god being the god of Zoroastrianism and their primary concept being Asha, the fundamental concept of that religion doesn't make them Zoroastrian or based on Zoroastrianism.

The entire conflict in Zoroastrianism is between Asha and Druj, the Truth and the Lie, the Good and Evil, the former symbolized by Fire. This is also the core concept of the Taftani, who worship Ahura Mazda.

IF they worship the Wise Lord.
And they are strong believers in Asha.
And they use Zoroastrian terminology
And their historical base is Persia

Then they are Zoroastrian.

>>55299351
I went over that earlier, anon. They're not dualistic, nor do they subscribe to it. Zoroastrian mages tried to crush them. Nothing stopping you painting them as in your games though.

>>55299386
You're wrong and the book makes this immediately and evidently clear. I'm not supplying you with further sources. The Taftani are Zoroastrian, or more properly are a White Wolf inspired blend of Zoroastrianism and the realities of the Umbra, just as the Akashics are a blend of Buddhism and Taoism with magick physics, and the Choristers are weird omni-monotheists.

>>55299035
>Hate mage Supremacy
>Continues to suck mage dick
Nothing but a False flagging Changeling fag

>>55299417
Anon, you're just saying 'nuh uh' over and over. The book does no such thing. Zoroastrians even came to crush them.

Nobody is going to come into your house and force you to run a game their way - except Brucatto - so relax. You're just playing your own interpretation of the taftani rather than the correct one.

> ctrl-f Hunter
> 0 results

No surprise, it's a shit thread.

>ctrl+f Mage
>53 results

No surprise, it's a quality thread.

>>55299599
Hunter is hard to argue over.

>>55299624
Like we need more argument. Just regular talking about stuff we like is much more fun.

>>55299089
You must be baiting or just spectacularly retarded.

>>55299652
Why does everyone accuse everyone of being bait?

>I don't like this comment. it must be bait.

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>>55299513
>Outright post the page where it describes their religion and says their god is Ohrmazd, the god of Zoroastrianism.
>"You're just saying 'nuh uh'
>Being this obtuse

At this point I can only assume you yourself are Zoroastrian and are getting fundamentalist butthurt over White Wolf's interpretation.

>>55299089
Archmasters are the equivalent of beings like Luna for example and the book itself states that destroying major supernatural beings is difficult because they have archmasters equivalent patrons.
The only difference is that some very few mages can become an archmaster while a werewolf is not going to become a luna tier spirit.

>>55299778
Anon, reading comprehension.

>>55299778
With that logic you could argue that christians are jews and that muslims are christians and jews.

>>55299820
If there were multiple religions that worshiped the Zoroastrian God you might have a point.

>>55299797
So mages are the only ones that can *evolve* into godlike beings? where's the fairness in that?

>>55299864
Life's not fair.

>>55299875
How so? What can Life do that's so unfair?

>>55299864
It's completely irrevelant in a normal mage game.

>>55299907
TURN YOU INTO A FROG AND STEP ON IT

is there a compilation of all Mage spells in Awakening 1e?

I've been playing with High Wisdom in mind and having the Get Wiser Obsession really limits what you can do. I really have to think about the consequences of my actions

>>55298729
There IS a way to break the sleep cycle and it's bad. With sleep in place, you can freely do flashbacks knowing that mummies can't fucking die and everybody else will die between stories anyway. With amnesia, you can start anywhere without the players knowing about the time period or the game's own esoterica beforehand.

But mummies can arrange for their cults to summon them as soon as they sleep, which combined with a surprising level of leeway in dragging out the Descent makes the sleep cycle that was presented as defining the game something that some members of some guilds might do sometimes, or a temporary crisis situation a mummy could be in if their cult got fucked up.

>>55298327
So I like the game Mummy could have been, but not the one it wound up as. Mechanics and powers should be clearer but that's more of a nitpick than them fucking up the radical new campaign structure the game should have had.

Oh and the Sadikh system is exploitable in dumb ways. You can serial-kill your Sadikhs to retain Memory, which I don't think is thematically intended because Memory is supposed to be connected to what a nice fucking guy you are.

>>55299045
Present them with opportunities to acquire resources, retainers, etc ... in-game, without having them buy them, but with drawbacks
Also, no sanctity of merits
Jack an armored car or rob a jewelry store ? Give them temporary resource dots, with the added trouble of having ro fence their score or hide wads of cash
They can always ghoul people or use blackmail to use leverage, but these people can be turned against them
Present them with abandoned locations that can be used as safehouses or operations bases, but they need to be restored, secured, etc ...
If their characters are underdogs and they aren't handed much in the way of salary and benefits, it really comes down to how invested they want to get in their character's advancement

What is the difference between having just some real life occultism themed praxis and having a libertine magical tradition like Dreamspeakers?
Is that just for autists who clings to their religion or something?

>2 werewolves
>3 vampires
>1 mage
>1 promethean

How fucked is my group? I'm the promethean.

>>55296967
Someone needs to make a short story about that.

>>55300492
>1 mage
The mage rapes all others

>>55300492
You're in a crossover game?

Run!

>>55300492
You better have Disquietism or Disquietanetics or Disquietbetes or whatever it's called

>>55300492
> Playing crossover

oshitniggerwhatareyoudoing

>>55300492
I hope your mage has Mind on hand. Otherwise Disquiet will ruin everything.

>>55299479
I think Mage is fun, but it breaks my suspension of disbelief when it comes to Vampires having any real political influence and Werewolves not having to keep track of Mage shit to make sure they qren't going to piss of a Thyrus by messing up there projects/enjoying their abuse of power.

Outside of Mage games I replace them with weaker magic users with a greater focus on rituals.

>>55300492
its going to be night all the time, you will just have to sit on your thumbs during the day cos the Vampfags will moan otherwise.

Who knows what sort of mess the woofs will get into clawing everything in sight.

And the mage will solve everything in 15 minutes.

While you pretend to be Pinocchio.

What the fuck has brought all you spastics together exactly?

Sounds like a great game. Keep us posted.

>>55296796
Bored, easily
The vampire would sit there politely, looking at his phone, while waiting for the DMPC mage to stop talking so the story can continue again.

>>55298327

I love Mummy as a concept but there are some terrible things in it that need to be clarified.

I wrote a long piece on it when Attamajakki was still around.

I'd give Arisen a more ambiguous purpose.
I'd define Sekhem and Relics better as experience and potential life, not just life. Making Arisen tohse that take away both good AND bad artefacts and having to make moral decisions about that.

I'd build on the concept of utterances being the literal language of the universe, the deceived could actually speak it because they had creativity and could create sekhem relics. The other guilds had little creativity and were only trusted with Darmok And Jalaad type of phrases in order to not fuck it up.

I'd make Arisen forget their origins and be tied to primordial wastelands through forgetting the exact origin, so desert would become an ice waste or a jungle in their utterances and scarabs crows or other omen creatures of the culture they'd believe they're from.

I'd rewrite Sybaris to cause the forming of cults and create faithlessness in humanity but a striving for subservience to a higher power.

I'd remake amkhata as intruders from outside this universe assuming forms from our universe but wrong, with greater amkhata being still chimera's but actually entities from outside wearing flesh-puppet forms. They would be trying to breach through.

Preventing Amkhata and their masters was one of the judges's original purpose but has been perverted by the judge's selfishness but they still do it occasionally.

Stuff like that.

>>55301455

OH and I'd actually do something with the guild system, though not sure what.

And I'd rework the Five-fold soul at character creation since it's basically useless. Don't speicalize in anything, just build pillars. Have another X-splat.
Make Guild the x-splat maybe and have that be based on what type of eldritch horrors the Arisen specialize in taking out.

Like the Seshe-hebsu would be beating the shit out of and tracknig down memetic yellow-sign esque badguys for example.

>>55301498
>>55301455

Just some thoughts that I'm planning to write down for my own version of the game.

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How well do you think CoD would lend itself to a West Marches style campaign set in a single city?
>Lot of players all playing at different times but in the same setting
>Players all talk to each other in down times to discuss what they've been doing and form new parties when they want to do a session
>All working in tandem to uncover one or many plots set in the city itself.

Specifically thinking either VtR or HtV but any other suggestions work too.

>>55296614
I think he was talking about the fact that if you go out far enough in the Fallen, you may find the echoes of the Citadels used by the Aeons in the Supernal.

Would certainly make more sense than the Whorl (seriously, the Whorl is fucking weird, don't try to travel to the Astral reflection of Alpha Centauri on foot if you are inside it.)

>>55298327
I would change mummy so that they don't get weaker. Nobody wants to play a game where their character gets weaker the longer the campaign goes on. It's a shit idea in practice.

>>55297835

Fire dracula

>>55301889
It's an ok idea, conceptually fun but there should be ways to maintain your powerlevel or replenish it.

By getting a new purpose, a ritual involving sacrifices, etc...

Not just eating Relics.

>>55301455
>I'd make Arisen forget their origins and be tied to primordial wastelands through forgetting the exact origin
I think in MtC a clear known origin is important for the type of game it wants to be. I'd never jettison Irem

>>55300492
Honestly depends on your gm and the other players. People are gonna meme on you for crossover play and hAving a mage in it but it boils down to the gm and other players attitudes

>>55302714

Irem isn't jettisoned.
Through the ravages of time they'd just forget bits and replace whatever parts of Irem with other cultures they'd been part of.

They all still come from Irem and they can discover they are from there, but the decay on their mnids and memory has made thme forget they were originally from there.

Same as Egypt being a pale imitation and taknig concepts from Irem.

They'd think they're, I dunno Baba Yaga but eventually they'd find out that the rituals they perform were Iremite with a different coat of paint. gradually rediscovering their origin.

>>55302774
Okay that's fine, that's even doable as it is but isn't baked in. I don't know how on earth you'd mechanize that, since it sounds like you'd want to make raising Memory like how mages pursue Obsessions. So maybe sekhem beats given when you take the time to research and explore your past?

>>55296838

She is the example Ascended Archmaster in Imperial Mysteries. "Magic is Alive" is her pull-quote.

>>55302792

I have no particular mechanical idea either.
What I'd like to do is make utterances still rigid but with specific concepts instead of 'must be sand'. Hence the 'primordial wasteland', whatever that culture considers wasteland would be the 'sand' in current utterances.
(Permafrost, Swamp, Poisonous jungle, etc).
Scarabs would be replaced with, like germanic Crows for the celtic Arisen with stormcrows etc.

Through recovering memory they'd get flashbacks and other things.I forget what it's called but Arisen already have experience that is solely intended for Memory. If this is used you learn about Irem etc. I'd say.

Does that make any sort of sense. But yes your suggestion about research would do fine as well. Though I'm not very familair with Mage.

Remember that remembering your past is heretical in Mummy and costs you Sekhem if pursued for too long.

>>55302828
DAVE!!! How you been?

Could you clarify what happens if a player uses goetic summoning to summon aspects of their personality?

For example, one of my players is a mental/social focus Mastigos who wants to summon his rage and aggression and have it as a bodyguard and/or hitman.

So I'm going to model it as him having a potent retainer of some sort. However, I'm no sure what that means for the player?

Will his character lack all sense of aggression and drive for the duration? Kind of like Captain Kirk from that one episode of Star Trek.

>>55302907

Might want to add that I tun my Mummy session a lot like a fugue where they're in the present at one point and suddenly in the past again, like walking through mist. They're caressing a rose somewhere in Ancient Greece and suddenly they're in the present again, having torn out a guy's heart.

Think the flashbacks in Forever or just plain amnesiac but monstrous and out of time.

>>55301543
Shit that's actually a good idea. It might be a bitch to figure out how to run, but not a bad idea at all.

The only issue is if it'd be multiple splats or the same splat. If it's multi-splat the parties should all be the same splat though.

For ease of use, Hunters or Vampires only would make the most amount of sense. My personal favorite is Hunter and it'd lend itself well to the West Marches style of "Here's some rumors you've heard", but vampire intrigue is doable too.

I hope you don't mind if I steal the premise for a game I might run down the line.

>>55302828
Ah okay. I was just going off 2e.

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>>55303004
So based on what I've been reading the best way to handle a West Marches game is to restrict splats in general so everyone is on the same page (and everyone struggles the same amount). I don't have any problems with that considering I'm still pretty new to running games (particularly CoD) and I want players to feel like the world is out to get them so Hunter seems my best bet.

The setting I've got so far is set in my IRL city that all players are Hunters on a deepweb conspiracy theorist website (which I have already started hosting) who share the creepy shit they've seen, the contacts they've made and organise 'meetups' (game nights) where they do the hunting. The forum on the page is all in character except for a couple of sections, and any information or secrets found is shared by other players not by me.

Steal away. I'm running it because I'd love to see more of it and I'd like to bounce ideas of other people.

Whats a good place to search for mage games being run online?

>>55303513
Roll 20 and rpg.net

>>55303469
Sounds like a cool way of doing it. Might run it by my group next time we chat.

Thanks for being a light of creativity in an otherwise lacking thread, anon.

>>55295951
Got my space mage essentially using Cyberspace, or essentially a web domain that she accesses from her phone as her sanctum.

>>55304313
Sounds like that funky Forces spell from the Free Council book.

Mage looks really interesting in terms of philosophy and rules to bend reality but it's a bit complicated for my usual table.

What are your Mage games like ?

Probably a dumb question: Patterning can change things into other things, explicitly. So, if I use Life 4/Time 4 to turn someone into time, what happens?

>>55304550
All my mage games are pre-awakening. Joy of discovery there is really something behind the curtain.

Also once i played /tg/ inspired mage supremacy game. Bunch of supernatural npcs blame my players for things and they protect that whiny community from abbysal incursions.

Also one game was Joule Werne inspired adventure to Africa on flying ship.

But mostly its about people discovering some strange shit and colorfull awakening trips. Trips are my fetish.

>>55301889
>>55302671

I don't think Mummies should overall get weaker as a game goes on, it makes playing them kind of unattractive. Them decaying could be more up-played with their ammo/power source constantly draining, along with their appearance and they need to do maintenance to upkeep appearances and keep themselves recharged so they have energy to cast and do shit.

>>55304357
Well goal is to start using other arcana to start building up that cyberspace sanctum since it's pretty empty with just space. Then again she also wants to assimilate the entire actual internet/cyberspace into it.

>>55304764
Well instead of getting weaker, how about switching from a vertical progression to a horizontal one?

Like they start with a really strong but narrowly focused stat, the kind of stat that just nuke things and is really scary and cool and as they loose it, they get dots in stats that run more like gifts or changeling powers, no dot level utility powers that rely on the cleverness/preparation of the character.

That way rather then just loosing dots, the get turned into other things that the player picks so its seen more as a change rather then loosing stats because fuck you.

I think that might go down better.

>>55304653
Well, if they don't withstand it, it's just a really expensive version of weight of the years as they age hard while their remnant selves are exposed to massive doses of time from the transfigured part.

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Hey guys, I've been playing cWoD for a while but we are getting into a Mage the Ascension game, so long story short, how would you translate Fate/Stay Night's Excalibur into a wonder?

>>55306373
I have had about enough of all you Fate turds trying to add that shit to WoD.

Be gone, or I will take off the gloves and smack you silly.

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>>55306526

>>55306526
>Animu triggers me
Welcome to 4chan

>>55307001
Anime is crap tho

>>55296837
Do you know which book that is? Sounds like an amusing story.

>>55304653
Well, they become a quantity of time, which then ticks away into the past as time does. This, of course, means more time will have passed in a localized area, leaving a distortion visible to mage sight for a time.

>>55304653
I don't think it works like that. The Arcana are purviews more than things unto themselves. Like you couldn't just turn somebody into Forces, or Matter. You have to pick something from those categories to turn them into. You also have to consider how it translates into their Pattern. Like Teleportation is a Patterning spell because you're rewriting the Space part of the subject's Pattern to say that they're somewhere else.

>>55306373
Excalibur would probably be an Artifact of some degree.

>>55304550
Currently running Ascension. Its basically urban fantasy kitchen sink where the players act like gods. Very very cowardly paranoid gods.

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I just picked up my first vtm book but i cant find what edition it is

>>55306582
>>55307001
anime and WOD don't really mix well.

>>55307801
Type Moon is literally New World of Darkness: The Anime.

>>55307850
You can literally say that about anything, Anon.

Dresden Files is literally New World of Darkness: The Books

>>55307914
But Dresden Files sucks.

>>55303469
I like this campaign concept, let us know how it goes.

>>55307959
But Type Moon sucks.

>>55303699
9 out of 10 people on rpg.net just behave that way to avoid being banned, but beware actual SJWs because any game they play will be about their real-life political causes whether you like it or not.

>>55308018
Your opinions are stupid. My opinions are not stupid.

They are correct.

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>>55308045
I'm sure.

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>>55308056
I appreciate your conceding. Please try to have better opinions in the future.

>>55297783
You mean like air?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5mYiIhzyos

>>55307850
More like Old World of Darkness.

>>55308190
Eh I don't agree, Mages at least are clearly more "Seek the supernal" then the Nine Traditions or Technocracy. The Root is basically the Supernal, Servants are Goetia, etc.

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Can Mages kill servants?

>>55308235
Didn't you already ask this, you turd nugget?

>>55308235
Depends on the Mage and depends on the Servant, the higher tier Mages and especially Archmages far outstrip anything most Servants can do, but most lesser Mages would need to exploit some serious prep-time to avoid getting blitzkrieged.

Its a bit like asking "Can a Mage beat a powerful Spirit?" the answer really depends on the specific combatants.

>>55308235
Mages can kill anything

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>anime

>>55308235
All it takes it one Unmaking Rote to fuck over Gilgamesh

An Archmage enslave the symbol of Servants itself.

>>55307549
Convention book: Void Engineers, it's the whole introduction

>>55304764
>>55305377
Mummies getting weaker is important to the campaign structure of brief episodes separated by long time lapses. It helps create that 48 Hours running clock effect. The mage takes an extra two scenes to prepare, the mummy charges in.

Mummies can't really die, but they would be boring if they had no way to lose, so one of the ways they lose is by running out of the power or time necessary to deal with what they're facing. When that happens, it's back to the tomb and skip forward to the next adventure. Mummy has the potential to be its own thing and that's wasted if you take out the stuff that makes it distinctive, like falling power levels. Want other game, play other game.

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>>55308304
>People who pretend CofD is horror

>>55308424
>not taking the setting seriously
To what end?

>>55308424
Each line has its own take on horror.

>>55308471
Not him, but as an outsider looking in, I have a hard time seeing it. Most of them appear to be some stripe of power fantasy with some negative emotional slant put to it.

>>55308320
Not quite, this is another instance like the Solar Exalted discussion, where we have to debate whose Infinity Shield trumps the other.

Its completely unreasonable to think "Can not be Withstood" applies to every possible fictional being, as though a single Master could just Unmake Galactus.

>>55308506
The only power fantasy is Mage, and it's arguably the most horrifying because of what people fail to see in it.

>>55308506
>as an outsider looking in
Found your problem.

>>55308560
How is Mage a power fantasy?

>>55308506
Well I am him, and to be serious for a moment there IS potential for horror in each splat.

In Vampire you've become a monster, the average person would be horrified at having to drink blood to survive or to see half the fucked up shit vampires do on the daily. Its personal "What have I become?" horror.

Changling is basically PTSD horror, where you just got out of a terrible situation and the people who had you might still be after you.

Mage is about the horrors of unchecked power and hubris, mixed with a bit of cosmic horror.

Werewolf and Promethean I'm less familiar with to say, but the point is there is a little potential for horror in each of them. The problem is that all the settings give you tons of superpowers and thus honestly work better as urban fantasy then anything.

Some of the newer gamelines [like Geist] for all in with this, and drop the 'Cursed with Awesome' pretense entirely in favor of the idea that being a supernatural is AWESOME. Something we've all known since oWoD but whatever.

>>55308599
I refuse to answer that

>>55308611
>cucking vampires into lawnchairs
yeah that's a whole lot of horror right there

>>55308599
How is it not? You get the most wide ranging powers with the least built in drawbacks that one associates with the horror slant of the others. No mage is going to accidentally murder a friend because they let Harmony get too high (or Vitae too low) and their mortal buddy sprung a nose bleed.

But it also deals with cosmic horrors and the more human 'how low can man stoop' questions.

Not saying that everyone is playing it wrong if you don't do the personal horror thing, but there's people who have fun buying into the roleplay of it too. Different strokes different folks.

>>55308624
>I refuse to show my work
4/6 bait

>>55308560
>>55308599
The reason people fail to see it is because its not there. The idea, the whole concept behind Mage-As-Horror is that the average Mage is a paranoid psychopath.

The sad boring reality is that the average person, granted the godlike powers of Mages, would be very selfish but not particularly monstrous. They might steal some money or spy on naked people but they wouldn't create baby-powered mana generators.

And those who do would likely get murderstomped by more moralistic Mages in short order. The whole premise of making Mage horror instead of fantasy wonder is the idea that the average person, given godlike power, would not only abuse it, but abuse it in specifically sadistic ways. Which is simply not the case, I'd be surprised if even 10% of people build baby-powered mana generators.

If anything Genius does this concept better, because it gives you mechanical and setting incentive to do fucked up shit in the form of Larvae.

>>55308670
MAGE ARMOR
KINETIC SHIELDS
MUH GRAVITY CONTROL
EXCEPTIONAL SUCCESSES
UNMAKING
AGGRAVATED DAMAGE AT SENSORY RANGE
SPACE 3 BAN YOUR ASS
M-M-MUH ARCHMAGES

>>55308575
An insider looking out is already so invested that they'll see minutiae. The elevator pitch of the settings doesn't seem to relay much of a sense of horror, compared to say Call of Cthulhu where the horror is pretty easy to see.

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>>55308667
>everyone is playing it wrong
>never playing with paradox
>paradox has no teeth argument
>Lazy Gm never pushes PCs into bad situations Argument
>Your ST is a pussy .truth
>no wrong way to play the game cop out
>raw not important .meaningless thread
>We've gotten exceedingly efficient

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>>55308667
>Mage is a power fantasy because it doesn't outright rape players in the ass for just using their powers

>>55308723
Nah. If you got angry enough and had the power to get your revenge, it would be hard not to.

The realistic scenario is that most of us cannot handle the power.

>>55308732
Triggered False flagging Wolf faggot

>>55308782
>>55308776
>"You gain all the powers of a god and stay completely human, you're only weakness is that you have to hide your powers from normies otherwise you'll blow up. In exchange you can literally make the universe your bitch."

There isn't a person in this thread who wouldn't take that deal. People would think very hard before becoming a vampire or a changling, but every single one of us wants to be Mages.

The best way to play CofD as horror is Hunter with a group of people who don't know the setting, which is what I get to do in my uni roleplay group.

Nothing is more fun than dropping all the weird shit of Changeling on people who thought they would be hunting vampires.

>>55308812
You don't blow up in Awakening. Only a pleb is too scared to take a 'hurts so good' Paradox hit every now and then.

>>55308787
That's true of existing power that normal people have, and the offending Mage would get stomped. Its not a question of whether people would use this power for good, most people would just use it for their own gain.

The problem is that most people's gain doesn't really require them to make baby-powered mana-generators. If anything the most common immoral practice of Mages would be things like using Mind to get laid.

Which is rape, technically, but not particularly horrifying unless you're on the receiving end. There's a scene in the Fate Stay/Night anime where a Mage has cloned tons of children and is harvesting their energies to power his magic, and he has just this totally sickeningly sleek and professional lab with all these girls in tubes and he's growing what amounts to Tass [oWoD mana in physical form].

And I think that kind of thing is the image most people who think of Mage as horror are imagining. The problem is that such persons would be pretty rare, given at least one Obrimos or Guardian is going to get really pissed when he hears such a thing.

Which is another factor entirely that's ignored, that for every psychopath, some idiot is going to try and live out his superhero fantasy.

>>55308540
>as though a single Master could just Unmake Galactus.
They could though, but Galactus dying has its own consequences to the world, just like in the comics. That's literally (part of) the whole point of the god damn game.

I love it when people shit on Awakening while simultaneously making it painfully obvious that they've never actually sat down and given the damn thing a good read.

>>55308540
Nah. Fuccboi Gilgamesh is toast in the face of a Master.

>>55308900

Case in point this >>55308883 faggot

>>55308883
>hasn't heard of the mysterium or the seers

you haven't even touched or read anything Awakening, have you

>>55308953
Yeah, definitely that guy.

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I'm convinced that people complaining that Mage is not horror have not actually read Mage and using its setting elements.

When discussing Mage, the focus should be on Mage-specific antagonists, which largely do not include the other splats. Mage antagonists exist on a much higher power tier, and can often threaten reality itself.

Mage is a cosmic horror game, and that's simply not some the taste for some.

>>55309014
Fuck off, Daveposter.

>>55308723
>the average Mage is a paranoid psychopath

Are mages really paranoid if terrible, reality altering horror are really out to get them and everyone else?

>>55309014
I don't fucking care what you or Dave says a fucking mage can't unmake Galactus. If fucking Dr. Strange can't do it I sure as hell know some faggot mage can't do it.

>>55309033
I'd be more terrified of other Mages than reality horrors.

>>55309027
>Fuck off, Daveposter.

The Truth hurts, doesn't it.

The different gamelines allow for play in various genres of horror. That is a good thing.

>>55309034
Impressive false flag.

So is arguing (mostly) ignorantly over mage pretty much what this genreal does?

>>55309056
Welcome home.

>>55309034
>Implying Galactus isn't a rank 8+ entity

>>55309056
Yeah. Lots of people on both sides have not read or played it at all.

>>55309034

Luckily, CofD is not a Marvel superhero game, and there's no Galactus. Similarly, Dr. Strange is not a CofD mage.

Posts like yours simply demonstrate how you're ignorant of or just choose to ignore the actual Mage setting in your criticisms.

>>55309033
>>55308967
>>55308953
I'm not talking about what the fluff says they do or don't do, because I hardly care. I'm saying that that premise is ridiculous. If they said "Getting incredible power makes everyone gay" and had half the mages be homosexual that wouldn't change my view that that is stupid and unrealistic.
>>55308930
>>55308895
>Magefags being this delusional.

For the record, the Solar Exalt wins against anything short of an Archmage. Search your feelings you know it to be true.

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>>55309034
Classic Doctor Strange has annihilated far stronger things than Galactus.

Current Strange is pretty much trash,

>>55309056
Mage is somewhat unique in that the only threat to mages - the only real threat - is other mages. Even the Abyss can be avoided by the careful and the wise. The other thing about mage is that the only oppositional force to magi is literally GM fiat in the form of the Abyss and all that dwells (because nothing ~lives~) within it....which can only be a threat by GM fiat.

All others have their main enemies and forces that truly oppose them. Mages don't.

>>55309110
>For the record, the Solar Exalt wins against anything short of an Archmage

No. I agree.

>>55309110
kek

biased animu fanboy detected

>>55309131

...so what I'd the point if mage? What do you even do if you play it? Jack off to your own superiority?

>>55309110
You clearly don't know enough about the human psyche. Humans, as a baseline, are a horrible plague upon our planet. We're barbaric. If we could have our way, we would.

>>55309110
>If they said "Getting incredible power makes everyone gay"

Have you read most of the CofD gamelines, particularly Requiem.

A survey of NPC's and the fiction almost implies that being gay or transgender (or minority de jour) is an actual requirement for joining the splat or an side effect thereof

.>>55309110
>I'm not talking about what the fluff says they do or don't do, because I hardly care.

And therein lies the problem. If you're not actually discussing Mage as designed, intended and presented, your criticisms are pointless and unproductive.

>>55309162
You play Awakening to remind yourself how much you hate yourself.

Then you go back to playing Ascension.
>>55309155
>Using a game mechanic as your only justification for why Masters are 'Te best in all fiction!' even when confronted by other game mechanics.

Its one thing to say Masters are top dog in their own setting [because they are], its completely ridiculous to try and apply that logic to other settings. No Master can readily defeat Galactus just with a single Unmaking.

>>55309131
>All others have their main enemies and forces that truly oppose them. Mages don't.

Did you just skip over all the sections in Mage concerning the Exarchs?

Also,
>>55309014

>>55309191

What's the difference between the two, and what makes the Seco d woth playing? I repeat, what the hell do you do? I'm not trying to knock mage, it's just if there are no real antagonists or threats I don't understand how one would go about playing the game.

>>55309162
The thing about Mage the Awakening, is that in order to gain more power, you have to chose what parts of your literal humanity you are willign to sacrifice. While in the others, you are a monster already, in Mage, you turn yourself into a monster for the sake of knowing more about how the universe works. You literally cannot advance and keep your soul entirely intact. And that makes Mages even more monstrous than any of the others.

How much would you sacrifice to be able to reshape a part of your world, or even the entire universe to your desire, anon?

>>55309180
>>55309180
Its a faulty premise though, that stretches suspension of disbelief to the breaking point. In Ascension, most Mages are pretty standup, or at least morally neutral. Even the Technocracy is pretty bro-tier if you can get past their obsessive desire to control everything.

The idea that getting superpowers will make EVERYONE or even the majority into mad scientist knockoffs just isn't realistic. If I was pegging numbers, I'd put it more like

70% use their powers only for personal gain or the gain of people they like, but commit few atrocities [such as using Mind to get laid or being a pervert with Life]

30% use their powers for heroic or political reasons

Less then 1% straight up become what would qualify as the amoral mad scientist Wizard the game apparently tells us is a common development.

>>55309131
Mages aren't the only real threat to other Mages, you ass. Other splats can in fact be a threat in play, not to mention other antagonists like spirits, goetia, Bound, etc. Moreover, the main antagonists of Mage are the Seers and the Exarchs, as most players typically take up membership with with a Pentacle Order. Paradox and the Abyss play into the themes of hubris, and are meant to be a looming threat, not the main antagonists. So yes, Mages do have main enemies and forces that truly oppose them. Jesus Christ.

>>55309238
The reason you play either [all my knocking of Awakening aside] is because either

1. Power wank. Pure and simple, the freeform magic system itself is fun as hell. Its fun making up new powers on the fly, its fun being all mystical, its fun using creative spellcasting instead of just a solid list.

2. The settings themselves are interesting. I'm personally far more of a fan of Ascension, but Awakening has its merits especially in 2e where they tone down all the stupid Atlantis crap.

Awakening is about high concept weirdness like evil beings made of math and not-things from nowhere infiltrating your society in secret, and basically plays like Doctor Strange RPG where you investigate things for several hours then try and defeat the threat or understand it through all the powers at your disposal.

Ascension is urban fantasy kitchen sink with really fun unique metaphysics and where literally anything can happen. This makes it far pulpier [though not necessarily less serious] then Awakening.

Basically play Awakening if you want Scooby Doo meets Doctor Strange, play Ascension if you want to kung fu fight men in black along the rings of Saturn while you wait for your buddy to finish convincing Jesus to port you all out of there.

>>55309258
>Seers
>Exarchs
>not being other mages
Gee,sounds like the main threats are other mages.

And it's trivially easy to avoid Paradox and thus, the Abyss unless you're actively lookign for that kind of trouble.

>>55309191
Galactus? I'd agree on that. Mages can't Unmake 6+ entities to begin with. Not unless they're Archmages.

Solar Exalts? Probably not. Gilgamesh? Yes, more than likely.

>>55309245
>The idea that getting superpowers will make EVERYONE or even the majority into mad scientist knockoffs just isn't realistic
You're a moron. That's not the premise.

The rest of your post is rather on-point.

>>55309245
>Less then 1% straight up become what would qualify as the amoral mad scientist Wizard the game apparently tells us is a common development.
>the game apparently tells us is a common development
>is a common development

no...
It would seem your idea of Mage is somewhat flawed.

>>55309258
The main threats to Mages, are other Mages. This is pretty explicit.

It only takes a single capable Cabal to fuck over a Kindred Princedom.
Or a single Thyrsus Master to fuck over a Pack.

>>55309383
>>55309348
Obviously, which is my point. The idea of having Mage as a horror setting about hubris and power corrupting you really relies in the notion that the average person is going to become corrupted by power.

And not just corrupted as in they use it in the obvious ways for personal gain, but in that they abuse it for something actually scary.

There's nothing scary about a Mage robbing bank with Space. There's nothing spooky about a Mage turning himself into his own waifu. There's nothing particularly deranged about a Mage using Mind to get ahead in his career.

Which is really my point, Mage isn't scary. The only remotely scary part is Abyss-shit, and that's not even related to the concept of "Mage is scary because Ring of Gyges ooh humanity so evil"

>>55309238
>it's just if there are no real antagonists or threats I don't understand how one would go about playing the game.
Alright, here's what you need to do. Disregard these idiots, and listen to me. I've read the book, and I'm going to tell you what's in the book. Then you go and read Awakening 2e for yourself and then come back and realize how monumentally stupid and ignorant these guys are.

On Awakening, Mages become supernaturally aware of supernatural phenomena, to the point that they literally can't ignore it. They develop Obsessions, and pursue Mysteries. Mysteries, although capitalized, are just supernatural mysteries. Obsessions are supernatural things your character has a drive to learn about. So Mage plays as a kind of supernatural detective game, and through it all, there are antagonists to deal with on the way. Primarily other Mages, but they aren't all the same. The Seers, Banishers, Left-Handed Mages. Even other Pentacle Mages (players usually join up with one of the five Pentacle Orders). The Abyss will usually make itself known through Paradox, which happens when you're stupid with your magic (it's important to be Wise with your magic). The less Wise you are, the more susceptible you are to Paradox. And in pursuing your Obsessions, whatever they might be, you will be tempted to be unWise. To be realistic about it, you start with 7 Wisdom, but will probably fall to 6 or 5 just by being normal. Mages who lose themselves in the pursuit of their Obsessions have low Wisdom, and have poor control of their magic, and do fucked up shit. That's it in broad strokes.

>>55309448
I suggest you actually take a gander at an Awakening supplement before you start spewing pretentious nonsense.

>>55309448
Have you just not read Mage? Or are you stupid?

>>55309448
>The idea of having Mage as a horror setting about hubris and power corrupting you really relies in the notion that the average person is going to become corrupted by power.

Except that -is- the premise. Only Wisdom is a factor in that. It's not that everyone is going to be corrupted, it's that everyone is on a sliding scale of just that.

>Which is really my point, Mage isn't scary
For you, maybe.

Overall, I think you're just lacking the necessary imagination to picture the things the Arcana can pull off.

>>55309472
>>55309475
Did you just join the conversation? Scroll up, this whole thing started because someone tried to justify Mage as personal horror due to the potential abuses of power.

>>55309503
>Mage as personal horror due to the potential abuses of power.
Which is the point

There are dozens of threads about this on the OPP forums.
A single retarded Anon bringing it up here is, quite frankly, petty and hilarious.

>>55309492
>Everyone is on a sliding scale of just that.

Which is to say, most people aren't going to use their powers for more then petty gain, making the entire thematic irrelevant to the average Chronicle unless your group has to take out Rick Sanchez Master Wizard.

Which still isn't scary.

>>55309503
They aren't just potential abuses, you tool. If you had read the book you would know Mages losing Wisdom in the pursuit of their Obsessions happens a lot. It doesn't rely on any human notion or whatever bullshit, it's something intrinsic to existence as a Mage. Read the book, moron.

>>55309530
The point is that that thematic doesn't work, which is my entire argument. Its not realistic.

This isn't like 40k where their 'magic' literally has corruption built into it, Mage magic is sanitized and harmless barring Paradox. You're not going to make a downward slide just because you get power, you're going to start at Wisdom 7 or 8, slip down 3 steps as you do stupid shit for your own gain, then stay there for the rest of the campaign.

A fact proven several threads back when some Anon went through most of the sourcebooks and averaged the wisdom of every canon NPC.

I tend to agree that Mage isn't 'scary', per se.

At the same time, I also note that it also has the potential to be the most horrific of the splats as well.

>>55309492
>Overall, I think you're just lacking the necessary imagination to picture the things the Arcana can pull off.

It's this. The few who can't grasp the horror of Supernal magic just don't have the imagination to get into Awakening.

>>55309492
>everyone is on a sliding scale of just that guy
yes
Wisdom is the sliding scale of That Guy. 10 This Guy, while 0 is edge lord mic That Guy

>>55309538
Mages use their magic to pursue Obsessions. This is when they risk losing Wisdom, and when they suffer the most risk of losing control. Do you just think Mages are perfectly normal people with powers? That they can just ignore the supernatural?

>>55309571
>The point is that that thematic doesn't work, which is my entire argument. Its not realistic.

According to you. kek

>>55309571
You realize Mages function differently compared to normal humans, right?

They've obsessive by nature. They're not your average man.

>>55309571
You're going to give me an aneurysm if you keep this up. Just go read the book, please. That or stop spouting off at the mouth about stuff you so clearly don't know anything about.

ITT People not understanding human psychology and the abuse of power or that mages have a more intense non-human obsession with mysteries, that accentuates the more selfish human tendencies there-in.

>he thinks mages are normal people

>>55309571
>A fact proven several threads back when some Anon went through most of the sourcebooks and averaged the wisdom of every canon NPC.
Does anyone still have that? I'm interested in looking through it again

We need only look at how fucked up our current world is because of retards in power. How the fuck does a tv personality like Trump rise to Presidency? Man doesn't deserve to inherit this world.

So yeah, all Mages should be entitled and abusive monsters.

>>55309552
You read the books, the average Wisdom of canon NPCs is like five point something. Its not like Psykers or Lovecraft where you inevitably go insane, its not even like Genius where the game mechanics reward you for being corrupt.

Its hard to have a game about the corruption of power when there is almost no incentive to actually use power in a corrupt fashion besides the immediate fact of having such power. Its harmed even more when you have a community of similarly powered beings acting as deterrent.

Its the difference between a setting where you're the only superhero and one where there's already dozens of them. IN the first you may be tempted to get your overlord on, in the second the existing power-structure would either incorporate you or stomp you for trying.

Any Mage stupid enough to make baby-powered mana generators is getting fifty CCs of Guardians of the Veil or some Obrimos killing them for God.

>>55309604
>What is obsessive?
Are you retarded? Normal people have obsessions all the time. Its not an uncommon issue

>he still doesn't understand obsessions and wisdom

>>55309538
Except a starting mage can't really use his power for petty gain. He ha to develop his power. the only way to develop his power is to study magic and use it. And the more you learn, the more you study, the more of yourself you stand to lose. By the time you can use your magic for petty gain, you've already walked into the deep end of the pool where the sharks live.

Except the sharks are even more often looking for you.

>>55309652
Wisdom in 1e was near meaningless. Why would you factor that in when talking about a whole new system where its more in line with the game?

There are few games that are actually scary, and most of them are intended to be one-and-dones.

It's why Dracula (sort of) has a point when he brings up WoD/CofD's Urban Fantasy turn. Urban Fantasy isn't scary, it's very nature means it can't be scary, it just uses horror's aesthetics. Any WoD/CofD game that isn't a series of one-shots always becomes Urban Fantasy. Where he was wrong is that he considers it a problem.

The point is, Mage isn't special in being a cosmic horror influenced game that isn't scary, because every single splat isn't scary. The moment you settle down into local supernatural politics and adventures that aren't too much different from a regular RPG, the game stops being scary. All WoD/CofD games do this, and that's fine. There are horror beats, they are horror games, but in general they are not scary.

>>55309657
The obsessions of humans and the Obessions of Mages are two entirely different things.

The former is human nature, the latter is symbolically ingrained into the Wise.

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>>55309626
>>55309617
>>55309620
>>55309604
>>55309588
>>55309581
Obsessive people aren't psychopathic people. Also make up your minds.

Is Mage scary because 'anyone can become corrupt' even though most don't, or is it scary because most are varying degrees of psychopath?

Because the latter is stupid and the former isn't scary.
>>55309650
>How the fuck does a tv personality like Trump rise to Presidency
>Still being this mad.

>>55309652
>still not getting it
Just go read the book, please. I can't do this anymore, it hurts.

>they don't grasp the differences between lower-case obsessions and upper-case Obessions

>>55309693
Literally everyone becomes corrupt with power eventually, thinking otherwise has no connect to real life whatsoever.

>>55309695
>I don't have an argument so I'm just going to pretend you haven't read the book

>>55309717

>>55309703
That depends on what you mean by corruption.

Most people eventually use their powers for personal gain.

Most people do not eventually use their powers for psychopathic reasons.

The former isn't scary, the latter isn't realistic.

>>55309725
The latter is realistic when the entire splat is literally out of touch with mundane concerns and driven to explore the depths of something regardless of the consequences.

>>55309725
Your idea of realistic isn't realistic enough for my tastes. We, as a species, are a fucking plague. If you can't see this, then I just don't know what to tell you.

Hell, the planet would be better off without us on it.

ITT people who have never had any power arguing that power doesn't corrupt people and ultimately lead to abusing those they have power over

>>55309693
Mage is scary because:

1. You exist as a part of a group where people can go spectacularly insane and become literal and figurative monsters. And those monsters typically hate you.
2. Anti-reality exists, and it hates you.
3. Gods exist, and they hate you.
4. Those gods have servants with just as much potential power as you, and they hate you.
5. You're thrust into a world rife with supernatural phenomena, and you literally cannot ignore it or pretend like everything is normal. And surprise, a lot of those supernatural things hate you.

The only redeeming part of life as a Mage is magic, and even then it doesn't come with no strings attached. It's not like you just Awaken and can then kick up your feet and live a hunky-dory life. I could go on.

>>55301543
MU* play has done this for ages with varying degrees of success - they're never as great as you hope for though.

You've had multiple splat games that usually turn out bad. There's been single splat games that sometimes work great and sometimes don't. They always seem to go down in a blaze of drama though. Uniformly. I stopped playing them last year after nearly a decade. Even if I haven't gotten any CoD or even tabletop play at all since then, I'm happier now.

>*becomes mage*
>"i will use this power responsibely"
>*five years later*
>*is a seer murdering infants because the exarchs told him to*

>>55309798
>*becomes mage*
>"i will use this power responsibely"
>*five years later*
>*becomes a archmage and turns luna into his personal sex slave*

>>55309764
>We

You maybe. Fuck off.

>The planet would be better

The planet is a fucking mudball with some moss growing on it and is as meaningless cosmically as you feel humans are locally. It is just as capable of 'malign' as it is 'good' and you're a fucking dumb child if you think the planet would be anything other than 'as it was' with humans never existing.

>>55309798
>>55309828
Yes? It's a horror game, so horrible things happen to mages, and because of mages.

>>55309828
It takes much longer than five years to become an Archmage