/WMG/ Warmachine and Hordes General

Praise to OP for not naming this "Warmahordes General"

Sofya is ridiculous. Two games in and even though she was dealt with in a single turn both times, the opponents needed like 10 minutes and 4 seperate activations to figure out how.

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Shut up and play is finally in full effect, nice job thread.

Maybe we should give up, the previous thread died before 10 posts.

>>55257135
Praise the OP for using the actual OP, [Embed] chain and all.

>>55261211
I think we finally hit the point where most of the 10% of people interested in real discussion got tired of the constant shitposting and gave up on us entirely.
Unfortunately my local group of regulars is so cancerous that I'd rather be here shooting the shit instead of dealing with them.
I'll start posting models at some point if the thread is still alive later, since /WIP/ is almost exclusively GW content this year.

>>55264831
Let's not sugarcoat it then, let's talk for real this time. IMHO the game IS in freefall.

My primary game isn't WMH, it's AoS. You know, that game everyone has mocked for the past two years for being the awkward redheaded kid. But now word has gotten out we've got an above average cock, and the cool kid in class (WH40K) has decided he wants to treat us as a project, so beating us up is off fucking limits.

Proof of all of this is that there's three full AOSG threads sitting in the Archive vs one /WMG/ (let's not count the last premature ejaculation).

Here's where we stand:
- Mk 3 wasn't a new edition, it just reshook the Boggle tray, and there were fewer words than before. It brought nothing new, it did no streamlining, and it screwed up more shit than it fixed.
- Grymkin was meh. Not bad, Not good.
- The CID is the only thing going for the game, thus nobody wants to play anything but it.
- Everything I respected PP for, primarily how it was a trailblazer and not doing the same stupid shit that GW had done, went full retard and did EVERYTHING GW had previously done wrong. Like:
-- Forcing Retailers to Sell at Certain Prices
-- Remaining Expensive
-- Didn't murder their forums, but gave it a lobotamy and rewired everything through the ass
-- Got pissed that Skorne players went full Lemmings on Mk3, when every Skorne player was right to be pissed about their faction post-Mk3
-- Ending Press Gangers because WotC got sued instead of fixing a broken program that was horribly managed
-- Nobody gives a shit about the lore. Nobody gives a shit about Causal Play. Nobody is making the effort to change that
-- Changing your Magazine. Hold judgment for when it comes out, but Christ GW did this shit.
-After all of these changes, the game still isn't balanced, and has reverted right back to where it was pre-Mk3.

Tell me that I'm wrong, at least here you can call me a fuck.

Any circle players out there? what ya playing? I've been on a Una train for a couple of months, shes good bruh

>>55265358
You're not wrong, the game is still better and more fun to play then AoS/40k tho, so I'll take the bad with the good.

I've hit burnout point I think, I just don't want to play the same games, over and over again, because the local meta has collapsed in on itself to literally three people. I just can't muster the fucks to fight dark host or Ret gunline any more.

>>55265412
>the game is still better and more fun to play then AoS/40k
I don't think anyone is disputing that. Nor that GW games are more popular regardless.

>>55265358
>Ending Press Gangers because WotC got sued instead of fixing a broken program that was horribly managed

There were issues with the PG program, but to be fair I don't think there's a way for them to maintain the program without dealing with the shit WotC is.

The law basically came down to the fact that volunteer has a very specific definition in legal terms, and you can't use it in regards to a for profit company. Which means that if PGs were working for the company, then they were considered employees, and thus, needed to be paid and provided benefits.

And in general, I'd say Mk3 is cheaper than before. The new unit packs include everything, for example, and the game size both got smaller and moved focus away from the far more expensive infantry kits.

Grymkin are a mess visually but rules wise they're incredibly interesting. Arcana are a far more interesting element to the game than feats are, for example.

PP are hardly saints, but they're making an effort. Many of the complaints with Mk3 have either been fixed or at least mitigated, for example.

>>55265815
>Grymkin are a mess visually
I've found that it's the studio scheme that makes them look like a mess. With a more coherent color scheme they look amazing.

>>55265833
I dunno, the designs just don't mesh.

Granted, their fluff is also 150% retarded, which likely doesn't color my opinion at all.

>>55265374
Got Una'd on tuesday. Hand of Fate is really annoying and so is her threat game in the new Steamroller.

>>55265358
I still don't get what happened after Mk3, I played it at Lock&Load that year, realized it was pretty much just the same as always and kind of passively lost all my hype before just not bothering to play again.

There's seriously something missing from the game that keeps me from shaking my apathy, and I've played since Mk2 launched.

Are the hobby aspects missing? Does the lack of "my dudes" kill my enthusiasm? I'm genuinely curious and I can't seem to find an answer,yet here I am painting a god damn primaris marine for a game that, while improved, is still inferior to the base concept of warmahordes. And I'm loving it like I haven't loved painting in years.

I'm reflecting on this conundrum and cannot seem to find a clear answer

>>55265358
>My primary game isn't WMH, it's AoS
Oh no, it's retarded

>>55265853
>the designs just don't mesh
That's intentional. They're a crazy nightmare fairytale army, they're not exactly supposed to be consistent

Can someone post sofya stats?
Also is sofya the first tranny? Good to see the lgbt well represented but I didnt expect butcher to be the one in drag...

>>55266578
https://cid.privateerpress.com

>>55265358
I...I kinda like the lore? I mean, it's probably the only thing I actually still give a shit about with the game?
The rest is spot-on though.

Hey, so how do you play Asphyxious3? I'm thinking that I just ball up my dudes and bash them into the enemy for the assassination run.

>>55266576
Sure, but the fact that there is zero cohesion to an army's overall dumb design is awful even if intentional. That just makes it intentionally dumb.

And, let's not mince words here, other games have done the hodge-podge horror thing better overall, and several in-game factions also have better horror-themes, such as Everblight's various flavors of body horror, Skorne's mutilated murder-freaks or Cryx's undead, stitched-together nightmares.

>>55264831
Nah, we're still here. We just don't post that much.

The online community is just really fractured now since there's no central hub. Love or hate the official forums, they served as a good jumping off point and connecting web for all the sub-communities. Now you've got us here, the people spending all their time in CID, the various facebook groups, the reddit crowd, the lormahorders, the battlecollege guys, all your various muse and handcannon and bols forums, and a hundred other places. Most players seem to browse at least a few of them, post on maybe one or two... but it makes it tough to get a good discussion going in any venue.

>>55265358
>Tell me that I'm wrong, at least here you can call me a fuck.
I generally agree, although maybe you're a little harsh on a few points. There are still a few mistakes on GW's road that PP hasn't yet followed - most notably firing or managing out all the people that actually give a damn about developing the game. A few of the oldtimers are gone, but they've still got all their "talented young kids" on the team... the generation that was guys like Alessio and Jervis at GW. We all like to make fun of Sole's stupid hair, and rip on the various Wills, but those guys are actual gamers who are deeply invested in the game being good - even if you don't always agree with them (and I definitely don't). If the company lasts long enough, eventually they'll all be replaced by mindless corporate drones, and we'll find ourselves yearning for these golden days we're in now.

Can't go back to GW though. They fucked the community over too hard to forgive.

I wanted to do a thing, but found out that my country is sold out on Grolars.

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>>55266791

Friend of mine plays a build that's touched me in a bad spot a few times.

Satyxis raiders + ua, WE+SJ, Barathrum, Cankerwurm, Nightmare, an arc node, Darragh Wrathe, a siren or two and fill out with some seethers I believe.

Fast jack brick. DEF 13 is the annoying spot to have starcrossed on and unyielding + Wrathe makes Cryx 'jacks rather tanky.

>>55265442

...I wanna fight a Ret gunline, anon.

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Is it actually possible to beat a Ghost Fleet / Dark Host cryx pairing as Khador?

- No real RFP: The only useful RFP is Sorscha2 and she probably the worst caster in faction.
- No good Magic: The only theme that doesn't get overrun by ghosts is Jaws and Jaws gets overrun by infantry instead. Machine Wraiths are a constant pain, because they fuck up your position and you can't do anything about it.
- Bad Guns: Quality shooting (Rocketeers, Widowmakers) is wasted on pirates and quantity guns (POW 10s, AOEs) don't do anything to banez. Also, lots of stealth and tom_cruise_laughing_witch_coven_edit.jpg
- General "feel-bad-motherland-problems": Tough Shield wall dudes with strong melee and beefy jacks are the things Khador does best and both of those are just trivially dealt with by any bog-standard cryx caster.

Is the only real option actually just to play a janky Assassination list (Sorscha1, Zerkova2, Old Witch) and pray for it to get there?

>>55272297
Why? So you can drop a mammoth on it?

How are the new scenarios? Are the changes that you need infantry/jacks/caster live?

>>55273477
>http://files.privateerpress.com/op/2017/LnL/Steamroller%20Rules%202017.pdf

>>55273563
Thanks, but I guess that also means nobody is interested in discussing them anymore?

>>55273477
Hello there and yes.

Not all scenarios are as live as much as others (Pit II and Breakdown always are pure attrition games) but sometimes, you actually see SR2016 one-turn score wins on Spread the Net. A lot of games end on scenario ever since they changed it from 6 to 5.

Themes probably did more for list diversity than the scenarios did, but with both together we are indeed seeing a lot more trooper models than before. Some people would argue that jackspam completely died, while beastspam is limited to specific warlocks and factions, like Legion doing Legion things.

What I found to be scarily relevant, is the change on solos for flags. Solos are so important now and putting effort into killing them is rewarded super good.

>>55273711
>solos are so important now
I wish they would hurry up with the Dawnguard theme. I want my Scyir to be the hero Ios deserves.

>>55273711
>>55273894
>solos important now
Sounds cool.
I missed most CIDs, can I find the most up to date cards on their website or do have to sift through tons of split pdfs?

>>55274645
Split PDF for stuff that hasn't been officiated yet (eg. Northkin, Trenchers, Xmas CID)
Everything else is available on site

>>55274645
http://cards.privateerpress.com/

Those are the most up to date cards officially.

If you're looking for the CID changes that haven't dropped yet, you have to look through each forum.

>>55275365
Oh neat, so they actually got that going. What is that new number beneath CMD though? There's like a 30 or 40 on the cards now. Is that a new rule?

>>55275465
No, just base size

>>55275465

Base size.

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I love these models so much.

>>55274890
I assume the "Christmas" wave is coming out during the shopping season and not precisely on Dec 24th? I want some Sirens soon.

>>55266578
>Good to see the LGBT represented

Get out.

>>55256075
So question about competativnes of various PoM casters. I've been looking through various tournament lists and it is either All-Amon-All-Ramadan or Severius2. Then nothing for a long time and then High Reclaimer and maybe Kreoss3.

What is wrong with rest of the bunch

>>55272234

Huh, never thought about using Wrathe for his damage nerf ability. He looks like such a badass I keep on trying to use him to kill shit

>>55272234
>WE+SJ

?

>>55284958
Wrong Eye & Snapjaw

>>55279159

Play them more.

>>55273123
B3 in wgk until koldun theme release.

>>55284367
Severius2 is a Ghost Fleet hard-counter and Amon is broken.

Besides those, the Protectorate is, similarly to Retribution, a very "middling" faction.
They are "jacks of a lot of things, but experts in barely anything" and incapable of building a mindless gunline and/or throwing 45 though, high armor jack-eating infantry shitters at someone.

>>55287695

I'm more than a little confused that I'm not hip-deep in menites playing weird-mechanic warlocks with infantry screen, slow but cheap-jack attrition/counterstrike , one all-star tier warjack lists.

Skorne does it, and it works. Menites could do it cheaper.

>>55273123
Harkevich double victor and just keep trying to drift those sweet, sweet incendiary AOE's onto denny's head every turn.

Now that's what I call Strategy (tm).

>>55282685
>guy tries to stir up shit
>reply to him
Moron.

>>55273123
Yes, it's possible, but welcome back to Cryx being OP. I guess PP did it to remind me how much I don't miss Mk2.

>>55288411

Isn't it Khador that's OP?

>hard to keep up with these things

>>55273123
The answer is Sorcha2. Any one who says she's the worst caster on the faction is an idiot

>>55288588
Top three factions in no particular order are Khador, Cygnar and Cryx.

>>55288665
>Top three factions in no particular order are Khador, Cygnar and Cryx.
If this year's results are anything to go by, the most OP faction is still the Legion of VanMeterBlight.

>>55288665
>>55288977
Although on the other hand Jason Watt's been on a holy crusade this year to prove to the world that the most OP faction in the game is the Galvanizer (and making a fair run of it), so there's that.

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>>55288616
Khador was total ass in mk2, but Sorscha2 was so much better back then.

Losses:
- Warjack Bond: One of her best abilities by far. Put that shit on a colossal and watch the enemy lose a bunch of shit while taking it out.
- Freezing Grip: Expensive Board control, but still capable of taking an entire unit out of the fight for the entire game.
- Elite Cadre Winter Guard: Rerolling CRA's for absolutely free was dope.

Gain:
- Freezer: Her old bond, but on herself
- Quad Iron ROF fix: Her shitty gun got slightly less shitty
- Shatter: An additional damage die on frozen things.

Here are Sorscha2's problems:

1. Iron Flesh changed...
Iron flesh used to be a spell that worked primarily to DEF skew your opponent out of playing the game. Now it's an armor buff, which is more useful on Iron Fangs or Man-O-War and still good on Kayazy, but

2... and so did the Winter Guard
Sorscha2 is a Winter Guard caster, so even though she lost one of her two Winter Guard abilities, not playing Winter Guard with her wastes text. Winter Guard no longer have any use for Iron Flesh, it's pointless to even cast.

3. Freezer is a blank ability
It might as well not be on her card at all. If something stands within 2" of your caster, you either die or your opponent loses a piece. This will never come up ever.

4. Skornergy
Sorscha2 traded the ability to freeze something for extra damage against frozen things. Thanks a lot for that, mark 3. The loss of freezing grip also takes away a major tool she needs.

5. Her feat
The feat is great, but it's generally overkill and everything. It also doesn't help at all if your attacks are to weak to penetrate armor in the first place (Kayazy are trash with her, despite access to Iron Flesh)


In general, Butcher1 does everything Sorscha2 does, but with a better support spell list. Khador has a lot of casters applicable for worst caster atm though. Zerkova2 and Strakhov1 are one-trick ponies and Malakov2 is just an awful Irusk.

>>55279159
It's a pity there will probably never be a nyss caster (they don't do robot magic). I'd love to be able to field an uncorrupted all-Nyss army.

>>55289079
>Khador was total ass in mk2, but Sorscha2 was so much better back then.
You have a short memory. The first couple years of Mk2 were Khador-heaven, since nobody had any idea how to deal with Ironflesh Kayazy consistently. The tide didn't really turn on that until like 2012. And they saw a big upsurge for a while following the release of Butcher3, while the rest of the community tried to figure out how to deal with that.

Your statement true of the last year of Mk2, generally, and they had a definite slump immediately following colossals while they tried to figure out how to play (against cygnar especially) without crutching on IF Kayazy, but they generally hovered somewhere in the middle of the pack if you look at Mk2 overall.

>>55287695
>>55287842
Yeah, it's interesting. There seem to be some good combos in PoM, but you just don't see them. Our one old PoM player switched to CoC a couple years ago (that should get >>55282685 riled up, huh?) and stuck with it, and they seem to be almost absent from most tournaments. Couldn't tell you why.

>>55289081
Lanyssa2 never.
At least Ret has no shortage of waifus to begin with, but my love of tight aesthetics demands a table full of uncorrupted Nyss to throw at the local Legion player.

>>55285283

Mmmm that does sound super dirty

Playing Vlad1 vs Starcrossed is such a hilarious clusterfuck of dice.

I find it funny how before Mk3 dropped the Arkadius upgraded Battle Boar monster had identical stats to the naked Battle Boar statted out for the IK: Unleashed RPG.

>>55289679
Well you can do an entire army of Nyss now EXCEPT the battlegroup. I suppose you could convert up a nyssified ossyan or something. He already likes to cloak it up, and does quite a bit of moping, so it sorta fits.

>>55290027
>The Boarpocalypse
It was kinda funny that, after all the ludicrous hype and doomtrain, that list never actually saw the table in any form. Minion beasts finally get good rules and they're all like "Finally!" (all three of them), and then PP is all, "haha, no, jk - but hey you can take Nyss now! But we nerfed them too..."

>>55290027
>It was kinda funny that, after all the ludicrous hype and doomtrain, that list never actually saw the table in any form. Minion beasts finally get good rules and they're all like "Finally!" (all three of them), and then PP is all, "haha, no, jk - but hey you can take Nyss now! But we nerfed them too..."
Yeah they got nerfed pretty hard going into Mk3 (Though the infantry for pigs got a buff at least)

I can see how Maaayyybe rabid on a mid-weight warbeast was a tiny bit OP, but god it would have been fun.

>>55289079
>Butcher1 does everything Sorscha2 does, but with a better support spell list
Butcher doesn't have rfp

>>55291991
RFP on a blank card might as well not be there at all.

>>55292089
I don't think you understand the problem. Sorcha2 answers Cryx, Butcher does not.

You're free to ignore Sorcha2 all you want but have fun playing against Ghost Fleet. I'm sure that will work out fine for you

>>55289984
once I had a game of spelldraft against Ashlynn who had drafted starcrossed. I had so much fun trying to roll those 6's to hit.

>>55292464
Sorscha2 does not answer ghost fleet. She can't survive a scourge rifle assassination and doesn't provide magical weapons.

>>55265815
didn't that case come down to a judge saying "you're not working for them, you got into this knowing it's a volunteer system. quit reaching."

>>55293514
No.

The problem of the case is that volunteer has a very, very specific definition, and that must include "non-profit".

You can't volunteer for a for profit company, and that's a precedent that no judge wants to set, because companies can abuse the fuck out of their employees using a "volunteer" system.

>>55292825
And you think Butcher does either of those things? Sorcha2 is the answer anon, anything you herself doesn't do can be answered by other unit and solo options in Khador

>>55266076
I think the "your dudes" is a big thing as well as, for lack of a better term, the staticness of WMH.

Like 40k has a lot of room with stuff like Tactical Objectives and Stratagems to mix stuff up every game. One game of 40k can play out totally differently even if both players use the same lists twice (which I know from personal experiece) in a row whereas in Warmahordes once you've played your list once it basically plays the same every time, its style of play is even more restricted based on your choice of warcaster. This is also partly the fault of the steamroller format also generally being the same thing over and over.

tl;dr WMH games are predictable and get stale and bland after a while, WH4K is unpredictable and messy but delicious

>want to play WMH
>have wanted to play since MkII
>only played a few games ever
>have 2 player starter set
>no one interested
>local area literally can't stop sucking GW cock
>gave GW benefit of the doubt with 8th
>had fun for awhile
>price and power creep are worse than before
>new releases are hilarious
>single models are $35
>new chaos daemon Prince is $140
>its smaller than the $130 one
>neither of these prices are ok
I have no mouth yet I must scream. I need off this ride.

>>55297840
All of my 40K friends are loving it and saying that it's the best thing ever, people are coming back to the game, it's crazy.

>>55297891
I think the new and shiny is wearing off for me. Like, I haven't had the will to play or model in over a fortnight. The game feels oddly constrictive to me, but my real concerns are the GW hasn't actually changed. Arguably, they've gotten worse in the pricing area. When 8th dropped, everyone was more or less even. Then came the slow drip of codexes to swing the balance and a constant stream of models more expensive than ever before.

People complain about how Warmachine and Hordes doesn't let you make "your dudes", but let's be honest.
What miniature games that aren't GW games allow you to make an army entirely out of "your dudes"? 40k is an anomaly.

>>55298711
GW isn't even about "your dudes" anymore because there is no reason not to take named characters.

>>55298711

Infinity is pretty close.

I imagine a lot of wargames do, at least moreso than Warmachine.

>>55298778
Unless you don't have more than two(?) characters, a problem the local Ork players have been very vocal about.

I've been enjoying adding some personal touch (and trying to keep myself on track with specific paint schemes) by matching casters with a general set of units or jacks and painting them in matching livery. It's not perfect, but it keeps me a bit more organized with colors and lets me come up with team-up stories as I play games and figure out who gets to be in which 'caster club.

>>55298711

I have a Cygnar force that I'm going to expand with the latest Cain.

I've got loose Cryx bits so I'm going to paint them and swag them like they are Cryx for some badass alternate-universe stuff.

>>55294837
>And you think Butcher does either of those things?
No, hence the question ->
>Is it actually possible to beat a Ghost Fleet / Dark Host cryx pairing as Khador?

>anything you herself doesn't do can be answered by other unit and solo options in Khador
Sac pawn theme can keep Sorscha alive, but it has 0 magical weapons. Out of theme has magic options, but can't protect her from ghost shots.

Anon, it's simply not possible.

Is the Haley2 nerf the only sensible nerf PP have done in mk3?

I just remembered that Una2 and Mad Dogs exist and how unusable they are now.

>>55298832
Not really, most of them are at the same level. Generic units and named characters to compose your army. Not many games have a "build-your-own commander" option

>>55297840
>implying price is the only factor
>implying WMH is any cheaper
>paying $100+ for defective models that PP have no intention to fix

Say what you want about GWs prices but at least they don't buckle under their own weight (Old Witch 2) or have moulding issues that the company just staright out says they won't try to fix, offer replacements and you should just fix yourself.

Not to mention PP have been losing the run of themselves with the prices lately. Just look at Grymkin. $50 for The Dreamer, $35 for The Child. Thats about the same cost as GWs equivalent models.

WMH players really need to get off the "GW is expensive" high horse because PP are no better and in some cases, worse due to inferior materials.

>>55302755
The Dreamer comes with four models, man.

>>55302755
>at least they don't buckle under their own weight (Old Witch 2)
>(Old Witch 2)
Wait what?
She's not even out yet I thought.

>>55298055
>slow drip of codexes
>6 books in 3 months
>10 before the end of the year
>slow

I think people are forgetting 8th has only been out a few months.

>>55302755
10 Winter Guards are a third of your army. 10 imperial Soldiers are not even a playable unit choice.

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>>55302783
Pic related.

>>55302781
3 of which are effectively tokens that you'll generally never use if the CID was any indication.

>>55302832
Firstly, that's a lie. A unit of Winter Guard are like 11pts I think? So about a 1/10 of an army since most run around 100pts ish with theme and caster points. When you include unit attachments, solos and weapons attachments, THEN it's about a quarter. Then if we assume it's the Winter Guard theme you need 4 units of them or thereabouts (again with weapon attachments etc). So yeah, high horse.

That's because the scale of the games are different. Also, if price-to-points ratio is that much of an issue there are more cost effective armies to play than Imperial Guard.

>>55302849
That just seems like it's collapsing because it's not standing on both of it's legs

>>55302910
I feel like you're being willfully stupid so that you don't need to say bad things about PP.

>>55303013
I feel like you're purposely looking for things to claim as "bad" about PP

>>55302849
>3 of which are effectively tokens that you'll generally never use if the CID was any indication.

Well, now you're moving goalposts and bringing up shit that doesn't matter.

Point is, Dreamer's 50 bucks because it's 4 models, so the price is hardly outrageous.

>>55302893
10 dudes with 3 Rockets and an Officer blister are still less than 2x 25 dudes.

>>55302755
>$35 for The Child
The Child is a large base model, that matches up with their pricing on the rest of their large base models

>>55298711
>doesn't let you make "your dudes"
If there's only one right way for units to look, they should come as pre-painted plastic minis

>>55303374
This. The things I find laughably stupid are certain character jacks and oddly overpriced things like the Greylord Forge Seer.

>>55303815
To be fair, the Forge Seer is fucking massive.

>>55303897
Arguing about the Forge Seer okay, but did the Shocktrooper Officer really need to be 25 bucks? That's like half a unit Shocktroopers.

>>55302849
Is that not how it's supposed to look? Like a rickety Baba Yaga house?

>>55304260
Yea, Officer is overpriced, especially given that the Kovnik is only 20.

Newer mold and all, and better pose, but 6 bucks more for what amounts to being the same model seems pretty excessive.

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>>55304329

>>55304811
I'm more worried about transporting this than getting it built desu

>>55304909
That one seems like it'll take to Foam well, due to the lack of overhang

>>55305929
I would need to put her next to a Conquest to compare the physical height, because she might simply not fit into my huge base bag.

>>55295930
I have the complete opposite opinion. No 2 wmh games are alike and all 40k games are "sit in deployment and shot with tau robots"

>>55302092
>Not many games have a "build-your-own commander" option

40k doesn't either these days.

>>55299157
Why do you think magic weapons matter so much? It's just one unit of shitty models that have incorpreal. You need long distance rfp, which is what sorscha2 gives.

>>55301717
Una2 is top 3 caster in circle, she's not unusable wtf lol

Know what Man-o-War need?
A niper division with massive guns packing massive range
Why leave the widowmakers to snipe when you can have a powered knight with a powered rifle?

>>55307061
Because a min-unit of Blackbanes can steamroll the entire army guard by itself?

>>55307634
I really doubt that

>>55307802
1. Ghost Raider kills a dude and becomes a not-ghost for a turn

2. The killed guy becomes a new ghost raider.

3. You kill the unghosted dude, but can't do anything about the new ghost

4. Repeat step 1 until everything you have is dead.

Explain how Winter Guard Command solves this problem.

Rolled 6 (1d6)

tough check!

>>55302755
>>paying $100+ for defective models that PP have no intention to fix

There's been at least 4 pictures so far today of people getting new legs from PP on the Khador facebook group, and Pagani has stated they had a bad batch of resin. My OW2, for what little its worth has not had this issue. (Acquired Thursday at GenCon)

>>55311567
I think he was talking about the desert hydra which will shick basically said no, fuck off. People were even asking for a YouTube video on how to fix it and they didn't do that either lol

>>55298778
We'll I get that the game is advertised as a character driven war game however, there's a lot of custom model building content in each other no quarter. Now with the more lax conversion rules, there's no reason you couldn't get more "your dudes" in your army

>>55298711

Company of Iron when?

File: ramaramaseverius.png (139KB, 436x263px) Image search: [Google]

139KB, 436x263px

Hey guys, need some help taking down a buddy's Cryx list.

Dark Host theme

Terminus 1
-Barathrum
-Deathripper
-Slayer

x2 Wraith Engine

Darragh Wrathe

Bane Knights
Bane Warriors + UA

He's beaten both of my armies and I've seen him beat a few other people too. What always happens is the Wraith Engines get in and basically force you to go for them, and by the time they're dealt with he's got a huge amount of board control with hard to kill infantry and he wins by attrition.

I'm faction complete on both Menoth and Circle, so what do I do against this list?
And yes, he could have 2 other solos for free, but he doesn't have anything else right now.

>>55314849
Try a Kreoss1 gunline. Knock everything down and kill everything with fire. Knocked down Banez can't tough and if they survive because of the wraith engine buff, they're probably dying because of fire.

>>55315402

That'll work pretty well against the warriors. Those knights are nasty though, +2 armor being base to base and another +2 for being near the Wraith Engine so we're looking at infantry with armor 20 and at P+S 12 they're more than capable of taking down infantry and damaging jacks.

>>55315668
Continuous Fire is not an attack. If you light them up, they're eating shit for every 7 you roll. Try to kill some of them in a way that leaves burning ones standing without something b2b and your chances increase even more.

Also, keep in mind that the turn in which everything stands back up, it can't charge you and Bane Knights without charge are not doing any relevant damage.

>>55314849
Step1: Be happy he didn't take Riders.
Step2: Be happy he took Terminus.
Step3: Be happy he took 2 Engines.

But seriously: Exemplar Interdiction should make short work of that list. It almost seems like a hard counter. It doesn't even matter which caster you bring, so how about Sevy1?

If you are having issues with the engines, remember the following:
1) Their aura is only against shooting. You should really not care too much about it.
2) If you self-sac to outside of 2" of the Engine, it doesn't get to make a Wraith, which is HUGE.
3) If it's just sitting there and contesting a zone you need to ask yourself whether or not you really can and/or should score that zone. Sometimes a cheap contest with a random dude or a counter-score on your side of the table is more efficient.

>trying to get into game still
>enjoy the Phyrexian feel of Cryx
>get 2 player starter for the Cryx
>Cryx are op
>kinda lose interest
>look at hordes
>Legion is a bunch of dragons and shit
>fuck yea dragons
>legion is also OP
>interest is kill
>Love the gatorman stuff
>they're a minor faction with no starter
>unlikely to get any real love
O-oh...

>>55316306
>unlikely to get any real love
http://imgur.com/a/st8Iw

>>55316354
Ok. That's pretty cool. I knew about the garg, but nothing else.
>Longchops
All my kek and want.

What are the chances of a starter, though? I'd be happy with a caster, a snapper, and a Wrastler for a box discount.

>>55315796
>>55316262

Ugh, I totally goofed. I keep forgetting the engine's buff is only against ranged attacks. 18 is still a lot on infantry, but it's at least manageable. A unit of cleansers should be able to take them out pretty nicely. Only a 28% chance their initial attack will kill the guy, but considering each guy is getting hit around 2-4 times, that's pretty good. They all get set on fire, 1/3 of the fire goes out, then about 60% of the remainder die. I can work with that.

BUT then I wouldn't be able to run an Interdiction theme. Could I get away without it?

>>55315402
>>55315796
>>55316262

And thank you very much, anons.

>>55316306
>legion is also OP
Wat? Was that Mk2? Because they're a strong contender for worst faction.

>>55316453
It's stuff that I read. Idk. I mostly just lurk.

>>55316506
Om most boards that's a good idea. But for WMH the rule is not "lurk moar" but "play moar". But if you're just getting into the game, don't worry about what is OP and what isn't. The two most OP things in the game are experience and skill.

>>55316531

That's part of the problem, though. People are too busy licking GW's sweaty taint around here. I mention warmachine and they look at me like I'm fucking insane. I'm getting increasingly burnt out with 40k, and I think I just want something new. The newness of 8th is worn out I guess, but apparently I'm in the minority around here.

>>55316659
I know what they mean. My hometown and the surrounding area has been a GW stronghold for decades. It's crazy, but people didn't even realize there was a vast cornucopia of other games out there.

Anyway, I don't want to go too deep into blogshit, but the lesson I learned over the years is that if a meta does not suit you, either find another one or make one. The latter is of course much harder. But changing people's minds about miniature games is even harder.

>>55316693
I get that. Hell, I've been trying to see the seeds of WMH since 5th 40k, but people don't want to hear it. I actually had a few friends who got ME into WMH, and while I never had much, I enjoyed it immensely. However, it was just a fling for them. That's when I started in my area (my friends lived/hung out about an hour away). It's hard to get people to switch because they're already invested in one and its already expensive. PP isn't exactly cheaper I don't think, but GW certainly doesn't set a good prescience for perceived costs.

I mean fuck. I had more success with Fantasy than I did WMH here, which back then was when you need hundreds of models.

>this game sucks!
>then switch
>No!

It's frustrating. Hell, I don't even know if I like WMH because I like it or because it's not 40k.

>>55316799
It's also a matter of selling it to people. Switching is something nobody likes to do. However, trying out a new game is. If you bring 2 painted battle boxes and can't get people to at least try having a battle box game to try out WMH, then there's truly no hope for them. And I don't mean that in a "WMH is the ultimate game, everyone needs to play it" way. But if someone gets every possible convenience supplied for them and still won't try out something new, they're simply a moron.

>>55316873
This. I fucking despise Star Wars but when my pal carted a trunk full of X-Wing stuff to my house, we had some games and it was super fun.

>>55316873
I've told people I have a 2 player box I can bring in and they flat out said no because they don't want to invest into another game. The same dude is buying a $140 model next weekend, so you know. There's that. There is literally one dude who likes WMH and its because he doesn't play 40k. He has a little bit of stuff, but no time to actually come in.

>>55316453
That's not even close to being correct

>>55317226
So they are OP? I'm torn. I love the gators, but not having a cheap starting spot is off-putting. I have some old metal Legion that is impossible to reassemble, and I think I only have Abby 1 and Lylyth 1 (old battlebox) as far as casters go, so I'd basically be starting from scratch there as well. Then there's the 2 player box for Cryx like I said earlier.

>>55316369
if you want a discount, talk to your store. I find that most LGSs are cool with giving new players a discount if they're buying a bunch of shit, since they're gonna buy more.

Any of you folks got some advice for playing around Covens feat without bringing a specific counter?

It's pretty much the last piece of the puzzle I try to fix in the Dark Host matchup.

>>55317661
I don't even know if my current LGS can get WMH stuff, though its not GW, so I would assume they just get it from a distributer.

What's a good start for gators anyway? Barney, Wrastler, and a Posse?

>>55317708

What faction do you play?

>>55318018
Retribution and Khador

In Ret, my current pairing is eVyros in Forges with Helios, Imperatus and a bunch of Griffons, paired with Ossyan who runs Mage Hunter Theme with double Strike Force and filled out with shooty jacks (the Harpy is sick)

On the khador side, I am running legion of steel with pZerkova and pikeman spam and eSorscha in Winter Guard, with 3 rocket units, Conquest and a juggernaut with Andy.

My "cryx drops" are Ossyan and eSorscha respectively, but I have never played against Coven before, so I have no idea how to play against the Feat safely delivering double Riders while not getting scenario'd.

>>55317226
Name one worse faction.

>>55318375
Minions

>>55318414
Fuck no. Maelok alone is better than Legion.

>>55302849
>3 of which are effectively tokens that you'll generally never use if the CID was any indication.

"when an enemy model with a large or smaller base is boxed in the Dreamer's control range, the Dreamer can replace it with a Phantasm model with the same or smaller base size. You can only have one Phantasm model of each base size in play at a time. Replaced models are removed from play."

Yeah, the probability of enemy model being destroyed within 14" of your Warlock is pretty unlikely to ever happen.

>>55318487
If Legion is bad, why are they not the least picked faction?
https://conflictchamber.com/?event=15

If anyone cares, this is a tally of third place or better finishes in non-team tournaments, consisting only of the tournaments listed on page one of DGI's tournament page.

Cryx: 11
Cygnar: 9
Khador: 8
Legion: 6
Protectorate: 5
Convergence: 5
Mercenaries: 4
Grymkin: 2
Retribution: 1
Trolls: 0
Circle: 0
Skorne: 0
Minions: 0

>>55318375
Apparently, most factions are worse than legion.

>>55319376
Some factions just have very small player bases. Convergence, Minions and Mercs have traditionally been underrepresented. Grymkin just came out. Thus it's clear why they are less represented than a main faction, even though I personally am certain they fare better in the current meta.

Trollbloods are undervalued. They are generally bad, but not that bad. Them and Skorne being represented less than Legion is something I would ascribe to "early-2017-stigmata". They were traditionally rather weak in the recent past and there hasn't been much to drive players towards them that weren't already all-in on them. For Skorne at least I expect this to change after WTC, once more people recognize how fucking bonkers some of their stuff is. For Trollbloods the Northkin CID will certainly help.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that Legion is without a doubt the worst faction (even though I did imply it, sorry). I am very certain that they are at the bottom of the pile though. Fyanna Oracles has carried them for some time, but even that was not enough to solve their really bad matchups, if the Legion players I talked/listened to are to be believed.

>>55319952
>DGI
Is quite America-focussed and the US has always liked Legion, in part due to a lot of the very good American players playing Legion. I appreciate that they are the most complete database there is, but they are still only a small slice of the global meta.

File: Ragman.png (3MB, 1139x1426px) Image search: [Google]

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>>55319952
>>55319996
In case someone gives a shit about germany; https://www.tabletopturniere.de/t3_armies.php?gid=7&cid=1&latest=1

Factions ranked by tournament wins in the last 6 months:

1. Cryx and Skorne (7 wins each)
2. Khador (6 wins)
3. Cygnar and Protectorate of Menoth (5 wins each)
4. Circle of Orboros and Minions (4 wins each)
5. Retribution of Scyrah and Mercenaries (3 wins each)
6. Trollbloods and Legion of Everblight (2 wins each)
7. Grymkin and Convergence of Cyriss (0 tournaments won)

Total number of tournaments played: 48

>>55320675
Intersting. I didn't know T3 had a statistics page like that.

>>55319952
>>55320675
So Cryx, Khador, and Cygnar are pretty top-tier then?
Though, form this thread, I guess Cryx can roll over Khador due to incorporeal. Does Cygnar also have a bad matchup against Cryx?

>>55320982
>Does Cygnar also have a bad matchup against Cryx?
From what I'm hearing it's tough but playable.

>>55320982
In my experience, Cygnar can output a large enough volume of damage rolls to win against cryx lists. E-leaps and lightning generator go a long way.

>>55320982
Historically, Cygnar has always been quite good against Cryx, even during the dark days of Mark II. The primary reason for this being the overly dominant power of Haley2 and Haley 3 in - fittingly - both past and present.

However, Cygnar had to take nerfs recently. Quite important ones at that. Most of their auto-includes had an encounter with the nerf bat, while Cryx is seemingly getting more and more buffs with every single release.

>>55320982
>Though, form this thread, I guess Cryx can roll over Khador due to incorporeal.

To add to your assessment, the uprising of Cryx has let to some really bizzare list changes in Khador pairings. We no longer see an excessive number of Vlad1 Winter Guard Kommand players and the 10-heavy-bricks also have died out. Those two in a pairing have in the past just swept tournament floors everywhere, but are essentially free wins for every decent Cryx pilot.

It shouldn't take long for other factions to exploit the handicaps Khador is giving itself just to turn Cryx into a remotely playable game.

Particularly Circlers, who have quite a number of issues with traditional Khador, are all but certain to rise out of the lower tiers.

>>55282685
It was a joke bud because she looks like a solobutcher, like maximus.

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I wanted to try double Krielstone list, how does it look?
https://conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0agP9D0h0i6M6O0k0m6k0b0ccB

Trollbloods Army - 74 / 75 points
[Theme] Band of Heroes

(Madrak 3) Madrak, Great Chieftain [+29]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Impaler [11]
Stone Scribe Chronicler [4]
Trollkin Champion Hero [0(5)]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
Trollkin Champions (max) [17]
Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15]
- Fennblade Officer and Drummer [5]
Trollkin Warders (max) [17]

File: 353772-0392b3f5fe8b45c98de818b3f39827ab.jpg (21KB, 298x324px) Image search: [Google]

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Is it justifiable to pay 12 points for Widowmakers and a Marksman if I could instead spend 14 for a min-unit Rifle Corps +3 Rockets and get a free Field Gun out of the deal too? In order to do this, I would have to downgrade a Juggernaut to a Marauder as well.

Upside of keeping the Widowmakers:
+ reliable MAT 7 shots
+ another Solo to score flags with
+ anti-tough tech
+ some AD
+ Red Line Juggernaut hits harder than Marauder

Downsides:
- less Rockets
- less sac pawns
- less suckers for Andy
- just less models in general
- no free Field Gun/Mortar
- bad against multi wound shit, like cavalry

What the fuck is lormahordes and why are they so bad warmachine?

I just read a post from someone complaining that his caster which once had banishing ward can't remove upkeeps anymore, despite having Hexblast now.

>>55324484
it's a containment board for the fuckers that made, and continue to make, the PP forums so shit. Now that the faction boards on the PP forum are gone, they sort of spread their pestilence across the net, shitting up the FB groups, Reddit, and to a lesser extent, here.

>>55316262

What's wrong with Terminus and what's wrong with taking 2 engines? Why are these things to be happy about?

>>55316904
>I fucking despise Star Wars

Wow, get the fuck on up out of here!

Just kidding. But why the hate? Not your cup of tea, big trekky, or what?

>>55319952

Is Grymkin so lo because they just don't have a lot of players yet? Say what you like about them but they're a pretty damn strong faction.

>>55326026
>What's wrong with Terminus
Terminus isn't Denny1 or Coven
>what's wrong with taking 2 engines
Two engines are redundant, you don't take them for their combat ability

>>55326155

But what reason is there not to take them for combat ability?
I mean, you could run 2 extra units instead, but these guys can run behind your lines and threaten important models early on, forcing you to deal with them.

File: 1pic4.png (184KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

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>>55326083
Call it nostalgiafaggotry / elitism, I guess?

I grew up during the in-between of the big "star wars boom" and the prequel disaster. Since the internet wasn't really a thing back then, I had to get by with self-recorded VHS tapes and little me loved Star Wars as these two charming fairy tail movies (and that third one) and hold them to heart dearly for that even today.

But over the years, Star Wars became more important as a product rather than art.

1. I utterly despise the prequels, not because they "ruined my childhood", it's more based on how they are simply bad movies and somehow aged a lot more poorly than the older films.

2. I dislike the Expanded universe, because it felt like desperate. Milking and making up an explanation for every single detail sucks out the fantasy part of the whole mythos (No, I don't want to know why Han Solo has a yellow stripe on his pants. No, I don't want to know who the manufacturer of the stripe is or what galaxy he came from and I also don't give a fuck about the material it is made out of).

3. Lastly and the most offensive to me personally, were the "Remastered" versions of the original movies. I genuinely felt assaulted by all this pointlessly shoved in CGI crap, especially when the stuff that actually could've used a remaster (laser effects, screen transitions, film particles) weren't touched at all.

Similar things are happening with Disney Star Wars right now. Everything gets milked and they will make Star Wars movies, tv shows, video games, toys and whatever else until I die and possible further than that. Well, at least this time the movies aren't as shitty as the prequels, if a bit bland still.

Showing me a Tie-fighter now and telling me to get excited just because it's a Tie-Fighter is not the same as getting excited about tie-fighters all on my own.


tl;dr my favorite movies from the past are now products and I'm sick of having it shoved down my throat.

>>55326260
Because it's two attacks and 18 points for a model that immediately explodes once it stops being a ghost. They will simply never make their points back.

>>55326716
>two attacks
Three
It's got Rapid Strike

Does anyone know/have the scans for the published IKFMF Immorality adventure?

>>55326260
It's 18 points for 3 pow 15 (17 with dark shroud) attacks on a huge model with heavy jack level defensive stats in melee, but not heavy jack level boxes

>>55326716
>>55326791
It's 15 points, not 18

>>55326739
Also, 15 points.

Wraith engines are one-rounded by the average 10-12 point heavy and a lot more valuable as a delivery piece. Worst case scenario, your opponent just gives you the maximum 6 models you can kill, uses the rest to kill your now 30 point lighter army and on the next turn annoyingly grunts as he casually thrashes them.

So unless you really, really, really hate Khador, I wouldn't ever play two WEs

So how are Man-o-War?
Are they a slow but unstoppable brick, or a slow and easily gunned down before they even reach threat-range

>>55326905
Shocktrooper are generally considered fine I think
It's more the issue of they don't have a theme

>>55327032
Theme as in those lists that give you free points because reasons or theme as in "what do man-o-war units due besides have a shit-ton of armour?'

>>55327118
free points because reasons

>>55326905
Yes and yes?

With any sort of +2 armor buff, they are quite difficult to get rid off, unless you have a counter for it. High power chain weapons or telekinesis do the trick best, but so does do two or three cheap jacks with the ability to boost damage.

Keeping them alive is actually not as difficult as getting worthwhile offensive value. If Shocktroopers get jammed, they're usually done for the remainder of the game.

>>55326716
>>55326739
>>55326841

And it spawns a decent solo every time it kills something alive.

>>55327733
>Machine Wraith
>decent
eeeeeh

>>55327788

Speed 7 mat 6 pow 12 incorporeal and you get control of a jack if you manage to hit it. For a free model that gets deployed right in the middle of your enemy's dudes he's pretty decent.

>>55318303

Okay, I've very rarely encountered Ret, but I can help you with Khador. I myself play Protectorate and there are a couple of ways to deal with it.

Firstly I can use abilities such as Sevvy2's feat which are worded like "choose d3+2 models in your control range" so I ignore drawing a LOS.

Secondly if you possess any ranged units with 16" AOE or possibly 14" AOE you can shoot into the feat from the flanks, as it is a circle drawn from the Egregore he will probably position himself in the middle, so if you position yourself to the left or right of him you may be outside of the feat but still have units on his flanks in range. If they are out of range then just shoot them with AOE's and hope for lucky deviations. If he plays riders beware that you will trigger vengeance if you kill one of them.

Thirdly Dark Host has no way of dealing with unit spam besides cutting it down with weapon masters, it might be a good idea to run a unit up just to jam him, preferably something which you can push up to def 14, because bane warriors would need an 8 to hit, considerably increasing your survival chances.

https://conflictchamber.com/#cc201b_-0SdjdndndBd4d4dEdEdEdzdzdwdudu

Convergence Army - 74 / 75 points
[Theme] Clockwork Legions (Pre-release)

!!! You are using a pre-release theme.

(Lucant 1) Father Lucant, Divinity Architect [+28]
- Conservator [12]
- Conservator [12]
- Corollary [6]
- Diffuser [6]
- Diffuser [6]
Enigma Foundry [0(4)]
Enigma Foundry [0(4)]
Enigma Foundry [0(4)]
Optifex Directive [4]
Optifex Directive [4]
Perforators (max) [16]
Reciprocators (max) [18]
Reciprocators (max) [18]

thoughts?

What's that filthy Ret Gunline list, please?

>>55327788
It's incorporeal and fast. That's worth so much in SR17.

>>55329023
Why not bring 4 Galvanizers instead to repair your troops on the way in(and make for better Positive Charge targets) and then a UA for the Perfs to help them hit?

And why not bring Eradicators instead?

>>55328482
Hmm, this is indeed helpful. I have to remember to keep my Colossal in a position that allows me to either walk out of the balls control range or not be in it to begin with, because then I can place my Creeping Barrages further than 5" away.

Should I give Coven turn1 if I win the roll? One one hand, I feel like going second is always better for scenario, while on the other

Still stumped on Ret. Hmm... I wonder how other Ret players deal with cryx.

>>55331989
>Should I give Coven turn1 if I win the roll? One one hand, I feel like going second is always better for scenario, while on the other
hand, giving them turn 1 is putting them really far forward.

>>55329868
Take elves.

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>>55329868
Something like this maybe?

Rules question about Charging, LOS and casting spells

Page 72 says that a model with Focus/Fury can cast spells at any time during it's activation, with page 11 clarifying what anytime means (the important one being "before moving")

Declaring a charge says that before moving your model, you have to have LOS to your target to declare a charge.

Does that mean I can cast a spell which allows me to move (Velocity for example) before declaring a charge, meaning I can potentially charge a model previously not in my LOS?

>>55332654
Yep.

>>55332738
That's gas

This is sort of begginers question but how good are jack marshalls? I'm playing PoM so I can use durant1, reclaimer or bastion seneschal. But really is it worth removing jack from casters battlegroup?

>>55291991

Or the ability to move over 20" and one shot other warnouns

>>55333154
It's generally really bad, unless you have a way to give the marshaled jack focus (Empower, Accumulator) or some kind of really good pay-off (like the new mercenary theme force).

As a rule of thumb, if you marshal, do it with a shooty jack and find a way to give it at least 1 focus to boost something if need be. And your marshal's drive better be worth it.

>>55332517
Thanks!

>>55327788
The machine wraith was pretty good in Mk2, and it's pretty good now. Not sure why anyone wrote it off in the first place, it's a wonderful little model for its cost.

>>55329868

https://conflictchamber.com/#c5201b_-0AdUhIc43y3y3X3-3mdK3u3mhP

Retribution Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Shadows of the Retribution

(Issyria 1) Issyria, Sibyl of Dawn [+29]
- Hemera [16]
- Hyperion [36]
Arcanist Mechanik [2]
Arcanist Mechanik [2]
Mage Hunter Assassin [0(4)]
Narn, Mage Hunter of Ios [0(6)]
Mage Hunter Strike Force (max) [16]
- Eiryss, Mage Hunter Commander [6]
- Soulless Escort (1) [1]
Mage Hunter Strike Force (max) [16]
Spears of Scyrah [9]

I've seen a version of this run in Ossyan with double Manticore, but the Issyria version seems to be the most popular.

>>55333155
>Butcher does not have the ability to move 20"
Ok

>Butcher does not have the ability to one-shot other warnouns
WUT

>>55330989
I wanted to bring Perforators because as much as everyone slams it they've got alright ranged game, if I brought Galvis I'd have to drop not only my diffusers but also my ODs, which would drop my unit allowance 8 and not allow me to take the extra foundries. I've got Eradicators too, but I wanted to give the Perforators a shot. Maybe if I swapped a unit of Recips for some Eradicators, but I don't know what that would do to my math.

>>55333242
Ech problem is pom marshals don't do a lot for ranged jacks.

I was thinking about running bastion seneschal with sanctifier(I run exemplar errans/ knights exemplar so he can get some focus out of that and vassal). Seneschal gives my jakc spell immunity and immunity to crippled systems with I think is rather nice.

Durant has focus stat and can buff jacks arm.
Reclaimer

>>55333154
>This is sort of begginers question but how good are jack marshalls?
It varies a lot by faction. POM has a pretty limited selection, but there are a few interesting combos that are worth looking at. It's also important to consider the caster - jack marshals are best for casters that won't be able to support the extra jack with their focus and/or spells.

There's basically two ways to go with it. You can either take a cheap melee piece like a Crusader, and just let it and the marshal be an independently operating module. This is probably the best use of marshalling with the bastion senny. He wants to be up close to the action anyway, and if he's backing up bastions anyway, they are happy to have some extra attacks along.

The other way is to take the Reclaimer with a shooting jack and try to abuse Strike True / Take Aim. Especially when combined with choir, there are some interesting interactions there. For instance, a Redeemer can get up to POW 10 on all its blast damage with that combo.

Durant1 is a separate discussion, since he's not actually a marshal.

>>55336556
It might be worth trying the Repenter with a marshal as well. Spray attacks and Strike True interact really nicely, and it being nice and cheap means you're not worried too much about using it to bodyblock for its marshal.

>>55333716
I'm saying Galvanizers instead of the Conservators, sorry.

And Perfs are still kind of shit at a ranged game, man. At 16 points, they're not going to do as much work as one of our heavies.

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What went wrong? (or right, depending on perspective)

>>55337078
One list requires you to buy 3 full units that no one owned before mk3, one list requires you to buy a battle engine no one owned before mk3 that mysteriously almost doubled in price.

>>55337078

I dunno, and I've hit that paranoid zone where I question if they ever really were that bad, people just needed to break out of their ruts and Git Gud in the new style, and by the time they did they'd been buffed also in case they really were that bad, and here I am making anti-cryx lists again.

>>55336623
That sounds like a good idea since I wasn't able to find place for Repenter in my lists yet

>>55338344
>That sounds like a good idea since I wasn't able to find place for Repenter in my lists yet
He's a bit niche, but you'll see him from time to time just by virtue of being a cheap light. Boostable sprays are a really versatile tool in general (and even with a martial, you get a pseudo-boosting ability on them).

Guys like Severius1 that benefit from a large volume of attacks, or like Malekus who just wants to joker quote, can get good mileage out of the little pyro-bot.

>>55338419
Will try it out since I enjoy severius1 a lot thou my normal go to cheap jack was derwish. On the second though with marshal and eye of menoth I can get redeemer up to 4 rat and with boost from choir he should be able to put out some hurt(11 points tho)

>>55334645
Durant gives his friend True Sight, right?

That's perfect for a gun.

>>55338901
That's Durant2(warcaster one). Solo durant has true sight himself

>>55265358
I agree with everything you said, but I still want to like warmachine/hordes, want PP to do well, and am getting NQ prime and minicrate, even though minicrate is Matt's latest fap fantasy.

The main problem with Matt's fantasy's is that they are only his. No one else wanted a deck building game, no one else wanted level7, no one else wants corny pin up girl models. (Well I do, but I assume total responsability for being a weirdo)

>>55265500
>GW games still more popular despite being kiddy level.
>MFW it's true
>ouch the burn.

>>55337078
Um. Well, I still think Aggy is a pretty weird design for a bane caster. I felt compelled to convert mine for reduced hawtness. (I have no problem with cheesecake in general, it just felt really out of place on the Bane Queen).

It's mostly a fluff book, and for someone in since Mk1, most of the fluff was just more-of-the-same. So, generally gets a "meh" from me on the content front. The rules are in an eternal state of flux at this point, so no sense speaking to that.

>>55273123
How can glorious motherland not prevent ghost fleet with kharchev and many warjack?
Cryx pirate cannot into hurting greater khador warjack.

>>55341499
>Cryx pirate cannot into hurting greater khador warjack.
LaughingBanes.jpg

>>55341499
Because Karchev just dies if you debuff -7 ARM and shoot 9 rifles at him?

Aside from that, with the chip damage the pirates are doing against moderately debuffed jackos, you are losing a heavy every turn, while the 3-5 Pirates you can kill per jack just return every round with a free charge bonus. It's a losing attrition, unless you plan to clock the Cryx player.

>>55341429
the pinups actually seem to be liked by a lot of the community, so you're not alone on that.

>>55337078
>spooky skeleton faction spams spooky skeletons
Seems all is right to me. Just tone down Denny and Coven.

>>55307871
Not all ghost dudes will actually hit the target model, because they have bad MAT.

So ghost swings, flubs, becomes corporeal, gets killed.

>>55341578
I agree, however, I am a fool who wants to play Terminus ghost fleet because he's like the pirate king.
So no -7 armour swing.
Also I have 2 full units of revenants, so only 6 rifles.
I have cannons though !

>>55341923
What was the point of nerfing mk2 Banez spam when now in Dark Host, they're exactly the same as in the past?

>>55341932
Winter Guard no longer has Bob and Weave and mkII Iron Flesh. They're barely harder to hit than the jacks.

>>55341591
Going to get minicrate because pretty models !

>>55341429
>no one else wanted level7
Level 7 actually turned out to be a surprisingly decent and replayable boardgame.

The deck builder was indeed pretty weak though.

>>55342004
I always found it stupid that drunkard winterguard would have bob & weave, but no other soldier in immoren had ever thought of using a similar tactic.

It's like the planted stakes for brettonian archers: No one else thought of that?

>>55342031
It might be decent and replayable, but it wasn't what the customer asked for.
The same can be said about many projects.
Grind the board game is actually good (albeit the rule written by a chimp lawyer)
Monsterpocalypse is the best game PP ever made (although they fucked it sideways with the random boosters and the fucking movie deal)
Gobber games are decent fun too.
How is Matt so out of touch with the playerbase?

>>55342041
The whole matrix-dodge-choreography thing they had going on feeling really out of place on what is supposed to be your cannon-fodder.

But I still think the officer should give them CMA back. Or something. Currently, Winter Guard Infantry feels so lackluster compared to their riflemen counterparts.

I like the pin up models

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Any of you guys ever come up with alternative ways of playing that don't necessarily follow the rules or stay balanced?

Was at the FLGS yesterday and a guy I see around was playing a game with the shop owner. They had 3 casters each, shop owner playing Grymkin and other guy playing Ret. It was fun to watch, would prolly be a lot of fun with 3 or 4 people in on it.

I've also had an idea for a Total War style game where both players take 100 points of infantry units (maybe a single solo to be a "hero" or something, no casters or jacks) and duke it out.

Any other ideas?

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Would this guy fit in a Warhammer army or is he too big for that? Also, the Deathwalker is supposedly 30mm, but would it look too out of place with GW's heroic 28mm minis?

>>55333572
Bless you!

>>55344529
Depends on what you want him to be in AoS

>>55345152
Vampire. They are usually bigger than most troops (especially undead troops) but I'm worried that model might be too big for a standard vampire lord

>>55345405
Since they are on 32s, it would work. Be a nice main dude.

>>55333154
>>55333242
>>55336556

Wait since when are Bastion Seneschals and Reclaimer jack marshals? They don't have focus or the jack marshal ability.

>>55346062
They're both jack marshals

There's a slight chance WMH is starting here, even if it's just a little bit. What's a good way to start gatormen and how dumb of a idea is it?

>>55346237

I know nothing about gatormen other than that they're ugly as fuck so add that to your list of things that make the idea dumb.

>>55342004
>What was the point of nerfing mk2 Banez spam when now in Dark Host, they're exactly the same as in the past?

Bane Knights are completely different and they are the only banes anyone spammed.

>>55346305
I happen to love the models so nya

Question for you guys:

When something specifies magical attacks, it's referring to spells and the like, not attacks that do magical damage correct?

For example, the Wraith Engine's Unhallowed ability saying it gets +2 armor against magical attacks. That doesn't affect a normal weapon that simply deals magical damage does it?

Same with Vindictus' feat saying models can't be targeted by non-magical ranged attacks. A ranged attack that does magic damage is useless, but spells and battle wizard abilities will still get through.

Am I right, or am I off base?

>>55346237
So, Gatormen aren't a faction in and of themselves. They're in fact part of the Minions subfaction, which reflect a wide group of various minor factions and independent models that will work for all the other factions.

So, when you want to play Gatormen, what you're doing is saying you only want to play around a third of the models available to you.

Past that, Gators are a bit weird, compared to the other factions, and a bit harder to start with. But they're fine, so long as you know what you're getting into.

>>55347042
Depends on the context. Your first example is correct, your second is not. The importance is in the specific wording.

So, for your first example, Unhallowed specifically says ranged and magical attacks. Now, attack descriptors are keywords, so ranged applies to anything that says ranged(or has ranged in it's base description, IE, every attack that has the green gun icon). Magic attacks are the same way, and a catch all term for all spells.

In the second example with VIndy, however, the magical is a subset of the attack, in this case ranged. Magical refers to the Damage Type: Magical, rather than magic attacks. So magical weapons CAN target models affected by his feat. However, the earlier part of the feat notes that enemy spells can't target warrior models, so magic would in fact not work.

It's also worth noting that there's zero difference between spell cast by warcasters/warlocks and spell cast by solos, units, and the like, besides cost paid. This means that anything that names spell applies to all of these models unless it discusses the cost. So an ability that causes spellcasters to take damage will work on any model, but an ability like Arcane Suppression(which increases the cost of spells cast in it's effect) would have no effect on a solo using an ability(unless, of course, it's something like a junior warcaster/warlock)

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>>55347060

Well, yea. Minions are geberay split between the two, right? I'd have to choose one or the other. They'd be Blindwater, but they're majority gators, hence gators.

>As long as you know what you're getting into
How do you mean?
>tfw you always pick the awkward faction in every game you play

>>55347200
That's the thing, not anymore. Minions play with each other(they didn't in Mk2). The only restriction is that if you take a Gator warlock, you can take only gator beasts, and vice versa.

But you can take all the pig(or other) infantry you want without restriction. The specific themes might restrict this, but not all of them.

And if you move on to the competitive aspect, you have two lists, and they can be any mix of Gator or Farrow.

>>55346197
They have the "jack marshal" icon. You are confusing that with the "battlegroup commander" ability that journeyman warcasters have.

>>55347042
Magical Attack: Anything with Damage Type: Magical

Magic Attack: Attack generated from a spell

>>55347224

Eh. That's kinda... Ugh. I'm honestly not a fan of the pigmen, like at all, which means I'm actively hurting myself for not using a large chunk of my units. It's the same old song and dance. This is why I can never just dive into a game system. I wish I was just a person who could enjoy things.

>>55347336
Well, before we get too far here, let's note that this is not unworkable. You're hardly the first person to want to start only a single side, rather than both. Pure Gator lists can absolutely be made to work.

You would be hamstringing yourself, but to be honest, you likely wouldn't notice for a long, long time. Most balance concerns deal with shit you wouldn't be working with for a pretty long time.

>>55344124
I've had a three-way game, a big 2v2 team battle and two 9 player Free For Alls before.

>>55347336
If you can stomach one single pig and his big pig, you'd be fine. Just run a pairing of the Blindwater Congregation and Will Work For Food theme forces. The only pig you will need is the character Rorsh and his character boar Brine, other than that run all the Gators.

>>55347665
That's something at least. Makes me feel a little better. Where would be a good place to start? Is there a counts-as battle box in case we do some type of league here (why not make a BB? I don't get it).

>>55347789
I should probably look into theme forces since they're all the rage, and I'm a sucker for themes/fluff so long as it isn't "take 400 of unit x for a bonus!" because that's a stupid cash grab. The formations are a great example from GW last edition.

>>55348105
Themes are a cashgrab desu, but in the case of Blindwater, mk2 gatorplayers basically owned all of it already and the theme force actually made all the stuff gator work again (before that theme released, gators were unplayably bad)

>>55348298
That's kind of saddening, so the only way they're even decent is in a theme list?

>>55348482
In the transition from the last edition, one of the most important units the Gators have, the Gatormen Posse, got heavily nerfed. They lost a point of MAT which makes them worse at hitting things, one of their buff skills got worse, they flat out lost one of their mobility abilities and a skill they naturally had turned into an option. But most importantly, they went from having 8 hitpoints per model to only having 5.

With the release of the theme force, they got cheaper through an errata and if used in theme, they get their 8 hitpoints back.

You are not forced to play minions in theme. But since you don't want to mix and play pure gators anyway, not being in theme would be pretty dumb.

>>55348588
Ah ok. That makes sense. Where would be a good starting place then? I think I'm going to wind up getting them whether I want to or not because I think voodoo swamp alligators is radical.

>>55348603
As far as Gatormen Warlocks go, Bloody Barnabas is easily to learn, fun to play and beginner friendly.

The suggested "battlebox setting" for gators is pretty bad, so I would instead go for a small 25 point list. Something like this:

Minion Army - 25 points
[Theme] The Blindwater Congregation

(Barnabas 1) Bloody Barnabas [+28]
- Blackhide Wrastler [16]
- Bull Snapper [5]
- Ironback Spitter [15]
Gatorman Posse (max) [17]

This is plenty to learn the game with and easily expandable should you decide to get more (Wrong Eye & Snapjaw, Croak Raiders are fitting purchases, as well as the upcoming gatormen releases). And even if you don't like Barnabas, none of the models in the upper list will feel like wasted purchases to you.

That said, if the whole selling point to gators for you is the vodoo aspect, Calaban, Maelok and Jaga-Jaga all seem like better fits for you on that flavor side. Inform yourself about their playstyles and see what appeals to you.

This talk about getting into game with gatorman reminds me that I wanted to get back game with Cephalyx but I gave up and went easier route with PoM

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>>55348909
That looks fine to me, thank you. I've heard good things about Barney, so I'm totally cool with him, though I'll definitely get the others at some point. Wrong-Eye looks pretty sweet with that Top hat.

I had a question, though. What is this number up here? What is that number?

>>55349191
That's something they added recently and shows your base size.

I think it's 30 (small) 40 (medium) 50 (large) and 80 (huge)

>>55349095
They are really difficult to play.

>>55349387
Ah ok. That's makes a lot of sense, actually.

>>55347789
>Just run a pairing of the Blindwater Congregation and Will Work For Food theme forces
You can also just run two different Blindwater lists, can't you? Just have to pick a decent caster pairing and it should be workable.

>>55348105
>Where would be a good place to start? Is there a counts-as battle box in case we do some type of league here (why not make a BB? I don't get it).
If you're planning to go all gators, the gator battlebox is fine. The battlebox level is never exactly "balanced", but Barny should be able to hold his own. IIRC, it's Barnabus, Wrastler, Boneswarm, & Bull Snapper. It's not sold as a pre-built box just because minions are not that popular.

From there, you can easily expand into something like >>55348909
Theme lists are something you should be aware of, but do not need to panic about. Just clarify with your opponent / group whether you're going to be playing primarily with themes or without. Generally, something like a journeyman league won't use them. As long as everybody's doing the same thing, you're fine.

>>55320675

>what the hell are those kraut-eating huns doing with skorne?

I never thought Skorne was *bad*, particularly lately, but I'd have never said it was consistently good.

>>55347042
Magical ranges attacks like the woldwryd or caine1 pistols ignore vinnys feat

>>55352134
>I never thought Skorne was *bad*, particularly lately, but I'd have never said it was consistently good.
Thing is, most metas still have a lot of gunlines. And post-errata Skorne slaps gunlines around like an enslaved baby elephant.

>>55352749
>enslaved baby elephant.

Skorne sound like nice people

>>55349387
>and 80 (huge)
It's 120 for huge. The numbers are the base diameter in millimeters.

>>55352134
>>55352749
Not just that. Skorne runs one of the meanest gunlines in Winds. It can deal resonably well with Cryx and very well with a lot of other matchups. And the days of the slow Skorne are also long over. The "all the cats" and "all the birds" lists bring incredible scenario pressure.

Having played a reasonable amount of games as Skorne I can say that there's not a single matchup we cannot win with skill and good listbuilding. And Germany has a lot of extremely good Skorne players. And if my info is up to date we just need to annex Austria to get Hornacek.

>>55353014
>And the days of the slow Skorne are also long over.
Well, the days of slow skorne have been over since the beginning of Mk2. But I take your point, Skorne is good now. I agree. And they can do it all without even crutching on Sexy Hexy anymore.

Speaking of... it's remarkable how much the casters that were deemed "good enough" and did not get errata'd in January got left in the dust. I can't remember the last time I've seen Morg1 or Mordy across the table (and I saw a ton of them in the first half of Mk3).

>>55353792
>Morg1

New releases doing the same thing he does, kind of. He'll be back.

>Mordy

Revive nerf.

>>55353872

^That said Mordikaar-Ferox is a thing, have a plan for it

>>55352906
The fluff concept of Skorne is "horrible people with mostly good reasons".

>>55353792
Havin played Morg1 in Mk2 I have to say that he was never good. His entire game plan is and was just extremely wonky. He has some really neat tricks, but is too easily played around.

Mordikaar might have seen a comeback with the resurgence of infantry-heavy lists. But with Winds we have so many better answers nowadays.

>>55353902
But so is Mak2 Ferox and while the silver bullet against those two is a different one (RfP vs Grievous) a list with a generally good matchup into Mak2Cats will also be able to deal with MordCats.

>>55353945
>Havin played Morg1 in Mk2 I have to say that he was never good. His entire game plan is and was just extremely wonky. He has some really neat tricks, but is too easily played around.

But it's a *really* neat really neat trick, anon.

>Reminds me, need to get around to making that Imperial Warhost Morg1 list

>>55354032

Although if that trick is +4 inches on multiple Skorne heavies, no Marketh.

>>55353872
>Mordy
>Revive nerf
Well, the revive nerf happened in the edition jump. That didn't stop him from causing an uproar when previewed and kicking people's teeth in all last year. Those killing spree teleport ghosts were and still are completely batshit. But after the big errata came, seems like everybody forgot about him (and that suits me fine).

>>55353945
>Havin played Morg1 in Mk2 I have to say that he was never good.
I agree with your assessment except for this bit. He's had some times in the sun. I think he just requires a ton of finesse, especially for a bbox lock. Thing with finesse casters is - if you're losing to them, it probably also means your opponent is better than you at the game - which makes it kinda hard to objectively judge the strength of the caster in a vacuum.

>>55353014
>And Germany has a lot of extremely good Skorne players
By far the most important point.

>>55353945
>Havin played Morg1 in Mk2 I have to say that he was never good.

Did you ever have him cast Tiberion's animus?

>>55347134
>>55347270
>>55352647

But the rulebook never defines an attack that deals magical damage as a magical attack. In fact, it specifically says "Magical ranged weapons make ranged attacks, and magical melee weapons make melee attacks".
Furthermore, weapons that deal fire damage are never referenced as making "fire attacks", weapons that deal lightning damage are never referenced as making "lightning attacks", etc.

>>55359334
>But the rulebook never defines an attack that deals magical damage as a magical attack. In fact, it specifically says "Magical ranged weapons make ranged attacks, and magical melee weapons make melee attacks".
>Furthermore, weapons that deal fire damage are never referenced as making "fire attacks", weapons that deal lightning damage are never referenced as making "lightning attacks", etc.
IIRC, isn't there a section on like page 2 of the core rules that covers these sorts of shorthand specifically?

>>55360053
Yeah, pretty sure page 9, "Game Terms, Model Names & Rules References" covers this sort of thing specifically. The specific examples they use are "spell-storm pistol attacks" and "trample attacks", not the types you mention. Basically, once an attack has an adjective attached, it applies regardless of how the statement is framed.

>>55359334
I'm confused by your confusion. It says in vinnys feat, or the choir ability "non-magical ranged attacks", if a ranged attack has dmg type magical then it's a magical ranged attack and thus gets around it. And weapons that deal fire dmg, ARE fire attacks, so a fire gun wouldn't hurt a fire immune model.

>>55333590
>I just started playing warmachine


You will never get an assasination victory with Lola on p butcher in a competitive environment. He doesn't one shot casters, because be should never find himself able to reach an enemy caster.

That axe is solely there to give you a leg up on late game piece trading.

>>55342180

It was supposed to represent them doing modern individual movement techniques.

I'm up, he sees me, I'm down.


They are khadors first and only mechanized force.

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Hey guys, brand new inexperienced player here, just bought a 75 point list off my buddy, and I need to know how I go about playing it.

The army is Convergence of Cyriss in the Destruction Initiative theme.

Axis, the Harmonic Enforcer
- Corollary
- Diffuser
- 2x Inverter

2x Transfinite Emergence Projector
Algorithmic Dispersion Optifex
Optifex Directive
x3 Reflex Servitors
Attunement Servitors
Elimination Servitors

So I know the rules of the game and (theoretically) how to play, but how do I actually play the list? Seems like everybody in it hits pretty hard but I've seen guys take the biggest warjacks they can get and throw them right at the front lines and get torn to pieces on the 2nd or 3rd turn.

SO, what am I looking at in terms of deployment? Not a whole lot in there that can go for objectives, at least not pieces that it seems like I'd want to break off from the rest of the group.

tl;dr my friend made and sold me a CoC list he says is really good, how do I play it?

>>55361617
>my friend made and sold me a CoC list he says is really good, how do I play it?
Take babe steps, Anon. There's a lot going on in this game, and trying to dive straight in the deep end does not work for most people. The best way to learn is to play with only a few pieces to start, and work your way up to full size games.

Step 1) You can make an approximate battlebox with just Axis and the Inverters. Ask for some practice games at this level first. After the first couple, you can usually play them pretty quick, often inside a half hour. Try to get 8 or 10 games in and just get a feel for how Axis and his jacks work together.

Step 2) Bump it up to 25 points or thereabout, maybe by adding in a TEP, Diffuser, and/or some servitors. Again, play it a bunch of times, focusing on how the new models work, and how they interact with the core you already know.

Step 3) Bump it to 50, rinse and repeat the above.

Step 4) Go the 75. And then play about 1000 more games with the list until you can reasonably say you've mastered it.

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>>55362301

I appreciate the advice anon and I thank you for your response, but I'm the type to jump right in and I'm afraid that's what's happening.
Like I said, I know all the rules and I've studied the shit out of what each piece does. I know order of activation is important, I understand induction and that it's completely unique to this faction. I'm also aware that this faction is not one that is considered beginner friendly.

I'm alright with all of this, and I'm playing a 75 point game with another friend in a few days here. I just wanna know how to deploy and run the list as well as what each piece's role is.

Thanks again, I'm really not brushing you off, but I enjoy jumping right in and learning the rest as I go.

>>55348909
Here again. I just priced out that list. $174 from minimarket. Wew. Is there a better place to get them? That's a step out of the $40 battleboxes

>>55362556
Well, a 25 point game is twice the amount of points a battle box, so...

The suggested minion starting box is a Barnabas, a Blackhide Wrastler, a Bullsnapper and a Boneswarm. Which is complete ass, because nobody wants Boneswarms atm. And that would also be a 0 point list, not 25.

You can always try ebay

>>55363041
But twice a battlebox would be $80 by that logic, though the other half obviously wouldn't be discounted. Am I incorrect in thinking $173 is a lot for that stuff? In terms of 40k, that's essentially the price of 2 Start Collecting boxes, which is all I have to base my thought.

>>55363751
>Am I incorrect in thinking $173 is a lot for that stuff?
You are not, because if you bought all of this from the PP store, it would sum up to 158,95

>>55363751
This game is cheaper is a sense that you need less overall models. A unit box imperial guardsmen for 40k is 30$, while in warmahordes 10-12 model units go for anything between 40$ and 60$. The difference is that here, you commonly only need one or two of these units to play a standard sized 75p game, while for a 2000point 40k game, you'd need 100 or even more Imperial Guardmen.

Don't fall for the starter box game. GW starter boxes always have amazing value to lull people in. Once you start expanding (or from scratch), you are sometimes paying 30$ for a single character model that is included in one of these starter kits.

>>55364004
Is that 158 factoring in needing TWO boxes of Gatormen? Unless there's a new 10 man kit that MM doesn't have.

I was kinda thinking about that price margin, but I wasn't sure what an X point game roughly equated to in each system. Guard is a bad example because of the sheer volume of dudes needed. I already play 40k.

>>55364890
Uh, why 2 boxes? A max unit of Gatorman Posse is 5 models, a min unit is 3.

>>55364936
To add: 3 for min and 5 for max is normal for heavy infantry. "Normal" infantry is usually double of that. But the bottom line of each card (cards.privateerpress.com) will tell you that.

>>55365058
>>55364936

Oh fuck. Ok. That knocks like $40 off the price. That's better lol. I'm totally ok with like $130 for that.

Any thoughts for my 50 points list for my saturday gamming?

(Durant 2) Sovereign Tristan Durant [+28]
- Dervish [7]
- Dervish [7]
- Dervish [7]
- Reckoner [16]
- Revenger [10]
- Vanquisher [17]
Vassal Mechanik [1]
Vassal of Menoth [0(3)]
Vassal of Menoth [0(3)]
Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard [9]

Expected opponents include Issyria, Butcher 3, Kaya1, Xerxis and Absalonia1

>>55365484
Swap the Vanqzisher for the engine and an additional mechanic. Double Dip with healing and shit on your enemies with magical shoots that bounce of up to three targets. Also nic upkeep removal and the gun is also quite good. Still would rather go for Amon.

>>55365701
Huh Vessel is one point more expensive then Vanquisher. Also it isn't part of hte battlegroup so he does not get true sight from durant(but that is minor thing). It doesn't really benefit from anything in the army other then mechanic.

Or do you mean something else than vessel of judgement by "engine"

>>55362462
Fair enough, gotta do what works for you. I couldn't do it myself, but that doesn't mean you can't, especially if you've done a ton of research.

Personally, I still tend to scale back to 25 for a few games if I'm tooling around with an unfamiliar faction or even caster, and that's coming from someone who's been in the game 10 years. There's a lot to keep straight in your head at 75 just with the board state, even assuming you already know all your models inside and out.

>>55362556
Seems a little high. I just priced it out on Discount Games and came to $135 USD.

The Barnabus BBox on the same site comes to $79. It can definitely be found for less though. As someone else said, you can often find a good deal on used armies if you shop around.

Worth also pointing out that the KS recently shipped for Widower's Wood, which is a Hordes spinoff boardgame. Many of the included minis were gatorman themed, including posse, spitter, wrastler, boneswarms, swamp horror, etc. May be worth keeping an eye out for. Technically they are not "official" hordes minis, but they are indistinguishable once painted up.

>>55363041
>Which is complete ass, because nobody wants Boneswarms atm
A point I feel you need to constantly drive home for new players, though, is Don't Worry About Power Level In WMH. The internet spends a ton of time discussing what's hot / what's not, but for a new player, all those fractional efficiencies and meta trends are almost 100% irrelevant.

Thing is, when you're learning, it's going to be your skill and experience that determines how you do in games, not your list or faction. If you've only been in this a couple months, I PROMISE you, I can stomp your hyper-tuned netdeck list with any random crap I have lying around. Any experienced player here can say the same. The first time you pull out a win against a more experienced player after getting curbstomped 100 times? That's going to be entirely because of the practice you put in learning the game and your list.

Realistically, it takes most players about 2 years of regular play to get to the point where their skill increases, game to game, are smaller than the advantage you get by switching from The List You Know to the OP List Of The Week. At that point in your development, it becomes worth it to put a lot of thought into your pairings and finely tuning your list.

Thing is, by the time a new player today GETS to that point, every model in his faction will have got an errata, there will be 10 new theme lists, and the meta will have flipped over 16 times. Trying to predict that now is a waste of time. If you want to get good, better off to just grab a list you like the look of, put it on the table, and play it until you see those stats and threat ranges in your sleep. Learning the game will do infinitely more for you than worrying about which model in your list is 2% underperforming for its cost.

>>55366731
I agree with what you say.

IMHO as someone who returned recently after 6 years break I would say things that would make sense for a begginer are
-caster/lock who can support wide array of lists and does not need to focus to much on one thing(Kreoss1 springs to mind)
-straightforward heavy jack/beast to learn the ropes
-ranged light to show how los, terrain, size affect you in warmachine
-unit of infantry with number of rules maybe with UA - so he learns about positioning his models, skills that he can expect from other simmilar units in other factions, difference between using infantry and jacks and so on

Dunno if I'm talking out of my ass. Might be so

>>55361617
Ok, so someone else already told you it's a bad idea. But let me tell you once again, trying to jump into a 75 point game is a bad, bad idea.

But since you're asking, what you've got there is Axis double TEP. The crux of the list is that you're using Axis and his tools to protect those two battle engines and leverage their incredible flexibly and power to win the game for you. TEPs are very powerful pieces that can do an exceptional amount of work, while being very difficult to remove at range(and near impossible in this list). One of their biggest weaknesses is when the opponent reaches them in melee.

Axis, however, has a ton of tools to stop that from happening. His feat, Razor Wall, Counter charging Inverters, and a servitor jam serve to keep the TEPs safe and let them do their work.

Most of the rest of the army is built to support the TEPs, or help you get to the late game. Diffuser is pretty inaccurate, but lets you send an Inverter pretty far up on feat turn in case you need to make an early piece trade.

Corollary is a pure support piece, mostly existing to give Axis an additional 2" of control.

The servitors are a grab bag, and mostly serve as shield guards. Attunement make it easier to hit stuff(and remove stealth, not that the list much cares), Reflex are the hardest to remove thanks to dig in and can do decent damage to infantry swarms, and Elimination are good high ARM, single wound infantry hunters.

Optifex Directive are to provide your stuff with magic weapons or pathfinder, and to keep the TEPs in the fight.

>>55365484
Play shooty jacks instead of pure melee. Without speeding up melee jacks will have a hard time.

>>55342004
>What was the point of nerfing mk2 Banez spam when now in Dark Host, they're exactly the same as in the past?
PP's retardness.
A lot of CID "buffs" are just bringing back the old things.

>>55366914
That is why I put in reckoner and vanquisher. I was thinking about redeemer but settled for revenger because I have no way of boosting redeemers accuracy

>>55366934
Dark Host is nothing quite like Mk2 bane spam.

>>55366934
Basically this >>55367087

Unless they update Dark Host to give Gaspy2 his 2010 powers back, there is no comparison. DH is fine, it makes banespam at least feasible, but there are plenty of lists that can deal with it. Ghost Fleet's still the larger bugbear.

>>55366807
Yeah, generally agree. 25 points usually works out to battlebox + a unit + some support, and that's a good place to be for learning the game. The battlebox casters are also designed to fit your first point.

>>55365988
Sry. You were right. It actually costs 18. True that the engine (VoJ) has no true sight but who cares when you got roven. Also Durant wants melee and durable stuff he can repair with his spells so dervishes are allright but you need something more buff. Amon with VoJ has more thread range and damage potenial and is harder to kill than Durant. But on many levels they are quite similiar sans the speed buff.

>>55368058
>Also Durant wants melee and durable stuff he can repair with his spells so dervishes are allright but you need something more buff.
Having played into it, the bastion module is surprisingly tough to deal with in his list. The get Inviolable Resolve and, unless you can get grievous on them, they all heal back to full every turn. Problem is, your grievous wounds is demanded all over the place, and usually not enough to go around.

>>55366934
I think Dark Host is okay, but Coven makes them too easy to play.

Ghost Fleet is broken. From my school of thought, either the Deathbound rule needs to be rewritten so that RFPing any model just prevents that model from reappearing or the Leader Model needs to replaced with an officer so that he can be killed by anything and the recursion is gone forever.

But maybe and just maybe, the big problem with Ghost Fleet is actually Denny1, who always was in contention for best model in the game since her inception. And now that Haley2 got batted, it's probably true.

>>55368058
Oh I do agree that Amon is better but I don't have the model yet and also I hate the way he looks(need good steampunk arab proxy asap).
Anyway when it comes to melee better I have reckoner in this list with is alright and vanquisher isn't a slouch either(especialy since 50% of my meta are hordes and if you can beat their defence they pop like baloons).

If I will get amon however I will probably spam dervishes and crusaders all day long

>>55368140
Well if I would slap Seneschal on them they would heal even more but I think I will stick to playing Creators Might with Durant and Amon while I look for different caster to utilize my infantry

File: solesmare.jpg (21KB, 432x432px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 432x432px

Grymkin were a mistake

>>55368573
That's a nice edit.