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First for Mage Supremacy

I've heard mentions of Demons and God-Machine interacting with the Hedge, but couldn't find any mention of it in the book?

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>>55252249
They don't demons don't hang with girly gay fairys

>>55252089
>Why is ''magick'' spelled with a k?
So that you can let people know just how much of a tool you really are.

So if Legacy Attainments can't be countered and are considered natural phenomena, does that mean that a Reality Stalker can slip into a Warded place no problem, and scry Mages without the window pinging on their Peripheral Mage Sight?

>>55252814
Nope.
Legacy Attainments still have to deal with a Clash of Wills.
They're just non-Supernal, so no dissonance or quiescence, can't be counterspelled or dispelled, and their use is NEVER an Act of Hubris.

>>55252895
And if you're using legacy fags attainments, that means that as long as he uses his 3rd attainment, a Perfected Adept can still be saintly and beat people to death three times a day. Hooray!

Is Burt Gummer how you make a Lone Hunter?

Also how would you make a Dread power from the Graboids?

>>55252960
When has Burt ever hunted alone?

>>55246908
Any chance of seeing your take on the Pure Sovereign legacy when you update next?

>>55252915
Wisdom isn't morality. Remember, manslaughter is a worse sin than a planned, cold blooded killing.

>>55253436
I'll add it to the list.

Reading through the Mysterium book. I know it's 1e, but Gnosis 5 for the second Attainment of a Legacy seems... steep.

>>55253801
In 1e, Gnosis was assumed to be much higher on average.

A Mage out of his apprenticeship was Gnosis 3.

Why would you choose to join a legacy with a ruling arcana the same as one you already have?

Doesnt make sense.

>>55254058
A legacy is a defining statement of your view on magic and something you're so dedicated to as a life philosophy and magical principle you'll warp your soul to it. Not just "sweet stats". Also you get free xp in 2e.

>>55254058
There's more to Legacies than cutting down on Mana costs.

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>>55254058
It really doesn't. It's especially silly with the Chrysalides, a Thyrus Legacy whose primary Arcanum is Life, and whose secondary Arcanum is freaking Mind.

Newb question:
In the latest iteration (CoD), how can other supernaturals (vamps in particular) defend themselves from the scry&die-like abilities of furries (umbra stepping)?
Average furry has much more leeway with attacking than the average vamp protecting.

>>55254927
They don't. Vampires don't have any real ways to deal with the twilight/shadow in 2e raw, aside from possibly a cruac/theban ritual I might have missed, and supernatural merits from the Coil of Ziva.

>>55252980
You're right...Ash is a much better choice!

He even took a bulldozer to his Integrity at one point and still came out relatively fine.

>>55255044
And I forget the fucking video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOpcdJ_V5_M

>>55254959
I suspected so. Then, I'll just have to asspull a reason why there's no umbra&die.
Any suggestion? Thickening the gauntlet creates more problems than it solves.

>>55255074
Nobody cares enough, I suppose. It's not really cheap for a Werewolf to do it; they've got better things for their essence. Anyone important and paranoid can probably either learn/pay to have some sort of ward made, pick up some mortal occultism or just sleep in the earth and be immune to it.

>>55255156
Active vamps community may well be the biggest issue in the city.
Does these ward and occultism stuff exist in some manual?
Not evey guy's got protean. Changeling can't do shit. Mage can do everything, but at what cost?

>>55255222
They can bury themselves, I mean, not just protean. In 2e, the closest thing is Ordo Dracul developing some sort of warding faculty through the Coil of Ziva. That I know of. Seriously, though, werewolves have better things to spend their essence on and Vampires are habitually paranoid about their havens. Finding where one lives would be a massive hassle. If you're really concerned, give them some sort of bolt-on to their Haven merit that wards it from supernatural fuckery. 1-5 dots, spend dot rating in vitae/night to ward their haven in the twilight/shadow from anyone trying to come over.

>>55255261
Yeah why would Uratha give a fuck about some lame ass leeches?

>>55255261
I thought finding their havens was pretty easy with furries being the ultimate hunters and vamps being quite visible in umbra. Mages communities can put wards and I don't know which type of protection can changelings have.

>>55254927
>scry&die-like abilities
I don't understand.

>>55255473
Werewolf, even newly started can step in and step out umbra. Technically they can spy you using this, then pop up in your bedroom while you sleep and do what a pack of raging furries does.
In real games it's not so automatic, but you got the idea.

>>55255563
Ah. Well you could always just have a Cahalith be the werewolf ring leader and puts a hard no on that shit because it wouldn't make for a good story. Which is what they're all about. This is a CofD 2e game, right?

>>55255222
A horde of ghouls, or mass turned shock troopers.

>>55252249
Apparently, although Demons can rip through the Hedge to get inside of it thanks to an Exploit, they absolutely cannot get out of it without outside help, which kind of implies that there are some weird reactions from one kind of magic to the other. (If I recall, it also fucks up their Cover big time)
My best guess is that, since they're at the exact opposite of each other (dreams and fairy tales on one end and mechanical logic and rationality on the other), Changelings and Demons very rarely interact and would have some trouble communicating and cooperating.
Moreover, Changelings would naturally associate Demons with True Fae and Fetches, because of their ability to sign unfair pacts and snatch bodies and souls.
As for Demons, they might have more interest in Changelings, since, apparently, Angels can't perceive the Hedge and can't get inside of it. Some smart ones might try to make Changeling allies to benefit from safe getaways.
I'm mostly pulling this out of my ass and recollections of the Demon core book, so feel free to check.

Found the Exploit, there's a bit of stuff at the given page, but you can look it up for yourself.

Rip the Gates ●
Strength + Occult + Primum
Tear open a rift into or out of the Astral Realms, the Hedge, the Shadow or the Underworld.
DTD 174

>>55255611
More like a potential game, but yes.

>>55255682
Seems risky for the masquerade.

>>55255388
>I don't know which type of protection can changelings have
there's no umbra in the hedge

>>55255388
Vampires don't really leave smell trails, which means gifts, which are contested, blah blah. For a group of people who are terrified anyone, ever, will know where they live, the werewolves will take some penalties. Sure, dedicated effort, they can find it. But you can do th at for nearly anything.

>>55255563
I am not sure Forsaken can step in and out of Shadow like this. Don't they need loci for this?

>>55256447
Yes, but at harmony 3 or less you can enter the shadow from anywhere, at 8 or above you can enter the physical from the shadow from anywhere.

>>55255963
Makes sense. The embedded reality code doesn't exist in the Hedge.

>>55256513
But this kinda shits on umbradrop. You either can drop from Shadow, or retreat to it. And you need to collectively drop/raise Harmony to do that, and that would be even more harder.

>>55256598
So what's the problem? The Forsaken as ambush predators still works, they just can't say "fuck it, later" anymore.

>>55256629
Yeah, but that requires one level of Harmony across the pack. Isn't that kinda hard to achieve?

>>55256707
Sure. It doesn't mean that they can't still do it. Or that they can't be outside/nearby and come storming in once the target's distracted

Are older mage splat books usuable with mage 20th?

>>55256963
Kinda. Most of the Revised stuff checks out.

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What arcana would I need to unmake the man of steel?

>>55258501
Just Life.

So according to The Pack, Spirit mages are valued and very useful allies to werewolves.

Could the same be said of Death mages and vampires?
What would a wizard-vizier look like in any given Domain?

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V5 alpha playtest is avaliable from worldofdarkness.com. You have to register, log in, and it'll be in the inventory of your profile available for download. I haven't gone through it, but it's a good bit more comprehensive and they've upped the production quality and made it look nice where before it was just something someone threw on the word doc. Player's Packet is 75 pages and Storytellers Packet is 104 pages.

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>>55258699

>>55258699
>Could the same be said of Death mages and vampires?
Absolutely. Vampires and Strix both fall under Death, as do their abilities. I could imagine at the very least a Prince paying out the ass for a ring or some other accessory imbued with a Death Shielding spell. Not necessarily paying with just cash, of course. Having a Moros be a kind of court wizard to a Prince would be neat, if done right. But if I were you I would brace myself for replies along the lines of "yeah lol but why would he bother with leeches" and suggestions as to how the Mage is puppeteering the Prince outright, etc.

>>55258699
That could work, absolutely. But vampire Danse Macabre and constant meaningless war for domination would mean that vizier would constantly be a target for other vampires. If this vizier have some ties in Awakened society - friends, lovers, cabalmates, this could end in vampire genocide after vizier gets what is coming.

>>55258804
You just know there's some apostate with a spirit mentor who ended up doing that because "easy money and my own squad of attack vampires". Or a Tremere who gained enough power that he stopped giving a fuck.

>>55258804

Well, why would an experienced Moros serve a vampire as "court wizard?"

A Moros might parlay, barter or ally with a vampire, but *serving* him would be odd indeed. It would be shocking in mage society and would limit his freedom to pursue mysteries.

>>55258699

Any mage would be considered a values or useful ally to werewolves or anyone else.

Spirit mages are just particularly advantageous to werewolves. However, I doubt they would complain if they benefited from the tracking ability of a Mastigos or raw combat potential of an Obrimos.

It would be no different for vampires, although Moros and Obrimos would be well suited to deal with Strix.

The issue is that mages have their own obsessions, and if a mage finds you "interesting" enough to hang around, it will almost certainly be more trouble than any benefits received after a short while.

>>55259026
>easy money and my own squad of attack vampires

Just as mages don't serve easily, neither do vampires, no less to those not of their kind, and they'l hardly tolerate be treated as disposable thugs.

The major splats are the A-listers of the supernatural world. Expect them to lead, no follow.

>>55259050
>A Moros might parlay, barter or ally with a vampire, but *serving* him would be odd indeed. It would be shocking in mage society and would limit his freedom to pursue mysteries.
Well of course there would be scheming. When is there ever not scheming? As for how he would find himself there at all, maybe he's left-handed, or otherwise on the run. Perhaps vampires, strix, and blood magic are Obsessions of his, and so on.

>>55259076
>they'l hardly tolerate be treated as disposable thugs.
Aren't all new vampires treated pretty much exactly like that?

>>55258501
>vulnerable to magic in canon

>>55259089
>Aren't all new vampires treated pretty much exactly like that?

Not always, and then only to other vampires, not humans, mage or otherwise.

I asked before, but never received an answer.

Is Changeling Arcadia part of the Fallen World? Dave earlier indicated that the Hedge, just like the Shadow, Underworld, and Astral, are part of the Fallen World. However, I don't recall if he ever mentioned the status of Changeling Arcadia other than it's not the same as Supernal Arcadia.

>>55259198
Arcadia is Disneyland

>>55259136
Acting too good for the Domain's court wizard sounds like a good way to get yourself staked.

>>55252659
Demons are gayer tho

>>55259268
Nope

>>55259209
>Arcadia is Disneyland

It's more like Disneyland for sexual predators and other deviants.

>>55259377
Still sounds like just Disneyland.

>>55259403
>Still sounds like just Disneyland.

CofD Disneyland is probably a very scary place.

I assume is conceals numerous portals to places that should not be and hides wondrous and terrible cryptids that view human children as a tasty snack.

>>55259506
Disneylands are unerringly built on Supernal Verges, and contain many powerful Bound hidden away from the crowds.

>>55259537
I'm sure Walt knew a few Left-Handed practices.

>>55259579
>I'm sure Walt knew a few Left-Handed practices.

Walt wants the sleeping masses to believe he's dead, but we know the Truth.

Is Walt a vampire, liche or something much, much worse?

>>55259817
Walt is the Goetia of childhood possessing a mortal man. I assume. Can Goetia possess people?

>>55259850
>Can Goetia possess people?

I believe that's the entire hook of Mage Los Angeles.

Are vampires territorial with other supernaturals? What happens when a cabal of mages moves into a domain?

The cabal spent a good deal of the 24 hours trying to find out what the Seers ritual causing the blackout in Philadelphia actually meant. The Seers were actively cleaning the places they'd used as conduits for the ritual, but they apparently didn't have anyone proficient with the Time arcanum at hand, so we could analyze it after they had cleaned it. We had just happened to blow something up when their ritual triggered, so the damaged or destroyed landscape offered my Acanthus a ton of very good sympathetic connections to that very moment, but it still wasn't easy, especially because their main ritual spot had apparently been the Seers headquarter at 1 Liberty Plaza, a heavily warded and defended place we weren't dumb or reckless enough to try and break into. But we could piece together that the whole thing had not just intentionally blacked out the city, it had at the same time unveiled a specific place that the blackout couldn't touch, and then hit that spot with a Dispel hard enough to destroy anything but the toughest wards.

This didn't help us find what the Seers were after though - we needed a little help. Luckily, Hollow Men started to appear all over the city, drawing the Pentacle to defend their territory, like parts of the Mysterium's Oblique Library (which is hidden within other Libraries in the city, and only visible and accessible via the powerful Arcane Index, an artifact that can do a few tricks Dewey didn't know about) and the Sanctums of Veil Agents.

It took the Mastigos to figure out that this was all a distraction, and if so, that there ought to be a sympathetic Fate-connection between the distraction and the real object of the Seers' desire. The help had arrived, and it was the means by which the Seers had hoped to hinder us.

A rather complicated sequence of Fate spells later, and withstanding more attempts to throw uss off track, we arrived at some housing block containing a weird back street untouched by the last centuries.

>>55260187
I think it depends on what they want out of their city. There are some plot hooks that talk about other supernaturals causing problems, but ultimately that's more of a world-building exercise than something defined by the splats themselves.

>>55260187
>What happens when a cabal of mages moves into a domain?

They avoid them as best they can and try not to seem "interesting" or "mysterious."

There's no inherent reason for there to be hostilities, and acting adversarial to mages minding their own business is a great way to get yourself incinerated or worse.

>>55260187
Just as an example, the Mekhet Clanbook contains a situation where the "protagonist" through whose eyes you see the clan meets someone who she doesn't know is a Mage. She tries to mindfuck the Mage, which doesn't quite work out like she expected, but the Mage doesn't take it personal, and the encounter ends up kind of mutually benficial.

>>55254058
You get a 1 experience discount on advancing your double-ruling Arcanum, which means you can advance it cheaper.

So if you're specialising, it's the way to go.

>>55260312
I don't know how the hell that didn't work on Lucy for the record. She's an Acanthus and has no Mind to my knowledge, but is good at Fate. You'd think they'd use a Mastigos for that. Isn't her friend Catesby that anyway, or did I read him wrong and he's a douchey Obrimos or something?

>>55260354
She could have been wearing an anti mind fuckery ring for all we know

>>55260354
I got no idea man, I'm not that deep into understanding who authorPCs are, I just thought it was a good scene - but yeah you'd assume she's a Mastigos in the scene cause all she does is Mind-related.

>>55260354
I mean the Vampire doesn't get too bad a scene in that regard.

>She isn’t really looking at me. She’s pressing buttons on the phone with her thumb, like she’s texting someone. Suddenly, out of nowhere, it occurs to me that she’s quite likable and reasonable. And sexy. My God. She’s so gorgeous. I didn’t see it. I develop an instant crush on her... and then the cold dead thing inside turns a wheel and my mind goes click and suddenly I’m cold and doll-like and empty and I smile like a dead woman smiles and cock my head to one side and I hear myself saying, >“You can’t force me to like you.”
>She looks up. “Oh. OK.” She puts the phone away. “Sorry. You understand.”

>>55260312
>>55260408

Lucy is one of those stupid mages that litter the fiction.

If you recall, she's such a shitty mage and has so few mage friends that she's dying of cancer. It's hardly surprising she's buddies with a whiny Mekhet.

>>55260354
>he's a douchey Obrimos

>Aether envy. So sad.

>>55260354
>>55260408
>>55260436
Mind and Death can protect from Dominate

Prime could too by being creative

>>55260496
Life too, arguably. Brain chemistry.

>>55260496

I don't have my books handy, what is Lucy's Arcana spread?

>>55260515
>>>55260496
>Life too, arguably. Brain chemistry.

Suffice to say, mind fucking a mage is no easy task, and more likely than not will just piss off someone who treats reality as their bitch.

>>55260515
I recommend that Life can't do Mind shit just because the brain is organic, or you essentially just end up with everything being everything. Just like Fate can't tell you if someone's lieing, but COULD theoretically tell you if they're speaking a truth they don't know.

>>55260561
Some of the Arcana overlap with others. Life affecting hormones and brain chemistry is hardly bordering on the levels of Mind.

>>55260584
Affecting brain chemistry goes too deep into the purview of Mind for my taste. I also find Life-based rote learning questionable. I agree that you usually can take different arcana to get to the same result, but with an open system like Mage, you got to draw the line somewhere, and apparently I draw it way before you do, and in some cases also before the authors do.

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>>55260481
I mean being a confrontational dick is a classic Mastigos stereotype, and he is kind of a dick.

Also, Lucy a shit but Francis is pure twee goth waifu. She's a better representative of her splat than Lucy 'Burn ALL The Bridges and Ignore This Spreading Mole When I Should See A Doctor' Sulfate is.

Seriously, she appears twice in the 2e mage anthology? Fuck her. I want another story of Rick or Garfield or something.

>>55260771
>I want another story of Rick or Garfield or something.

I want more of Hal from Premeditation.

It's a shame that one of the best mage representation, no less written by Dave, is stuck in the Beast Fiction Anthology.

>>55260645
Brain chemistry is a part of biology, so life should be able to fuck with it.

Really though that likely only means you can fuck with people's emotions, and trigger various biological reactions, like the flight/fight response, and fuck with people's emotions by entirely controlling the release of serotonin.

The more sophisticated stuff like shielding against thoughts and implanting thoughts though?
That's still just Mind.

>>55260824
I'm surprised Dave didn't have one fic in the anthology for the line he developed. I guess he was too busy working on the actual game to contribute there

>>55260954

For a guy who seems dismissive of crossover, particularly in Mage, he did a pretty darn good job of writing a crossover story featuring a mage, beast and changing breed(!). It *almost* made the beast seem marginally tolerable.

>>55260851
Your reasoning is scientifically sound but I'm pretty sure scientifically sound reasoning might also be able to convince me that you ought to be able to do everything with Forces that you can do with Matter, given your Forces is high enough. And that's why I do NOT go with scientifically sound reasoning and instead go purely by the question if the effect infringes too much on the purview of another Arcanum.

>>55261081
I'm of course not saying doing it differently is badwrong. It just saves me a lot of discussion-via-essentially-technobabble.

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>>55260194
Sounds like a good mystery you guys have got going. Keep it coming.

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>>55261081
>effect infringes too much on the purview of another Arcanum
That's precisely the kind of thing that 2e goes out of its way to disuade people from considering.

Life can indeed affect instincts, or other "primal" parts of a person's emotional make-up. Control Instincts is literally a Life spell example. You can also speak animal languages. As for Forces and Matter, the divide comes with whether or not the subject is "active" or not. You know, just consider if it's a form of energy and such. It's not rocket science.

In the end it comes down to this: The Mages' style, paradigm, or however you want to call it, structure how he sees the world, but his Arcana determine what he can do in game terms. Your scientific explanation is fine and well, but who says it's really that much more valid than that of the next guy who for the sake of argument goes: "I follow a deeply shamanistic tradition and we have a complicated explanation that ascribes emotions and thoughts and whatever bullshit is going on in your head is all demons and angels and lesser spirits fighting over your psyche and that's why I should be allowed to use the Spirit Arcanum to control your Mind". Maybe that's still influenced too much from oWOD Mage fluff (still awesome) to be of much use here, but it's where I take away the idea to go: "Look buddy, how you EXPLAIN what you're doing is essentially the neato cool icing on the cake why we're doing this but at this point I gotta ask you, do you have the Mind arcanum? Because otherwise that shit won't fly, no matter how you fluff it.

>>55261324
Just another reason I am staying at 1e then, see also
>>55261343

>>55261357
>staying at 1e
I don't understand. How is this stuff dealbreakers for you? I never saw them as really big radical changes.

>>55261380
Not him, but 2e has a lot of overpowered stuff that I wish wasn't in the game.

1e seemed more internally consistent, internal balance was more on point, and while yes, there were some arbritrary speed bumps, you could tell they had a purpose.

Also conjunctive arcanum requirements clamped down on a lot of bullshit people can do with just one Arcanum in 2e.

>>55261343
At that point, one would say he should either join or create a Legacy that reflects those views, because that's literally what Legacies do, shape your Supernal self in accordance with your views on magic. I also don't really think it would work at all. Angels and demons don't fall under Spirit, I don't think. Demons from the Lower Depths might, I'm not familiar with them. "Psyche spirits" are Goetia, and the purview of Mind. Humans don't have spirits that reflect them directly. You know, there's no "human spirits" attached to them.

>>55261432
>Not him, but 2e has a lot of overpowered stuff that I wish wasn't in the game.
Like what?

>>55261380
I am him, but that's just one more reason of a couple more earnest ones. This one isn't a huge deal really. Please forgive me for not going into great detail here, I just had a discussion like that 1-2 days ago and I'm still a little editionwars'd out.

>>55261466
The biggest offenders to me are Psychic Domination, Shifting Sands, and Exceptional Luck.

And while yes, I understand that they are important types of spells for their respective Arcana, they're just not balanced.

>>55261524
I still don't really get it. These things are powerful on paper, sure, but in play it isn't like they're instant wins. There are also consequences for reckless uses that you can employ. If you're worried about players having potential access to that kind of power too early, you can always change that. As the books recommend, you can change whatever you don't like. I would say most problems would arise from players, who just want to "win" and actively try to abuse these things, and then get mad when there are consequences for abusing these things.

>>55261380
Let me maybe only add the Following:

I sounded a little harsh on the "Different roads" snippet you presented, but that was pretty much mainly because it contained a sentence that pretty much explicitly said that what I don't like goes. Being so harsh on it was unfair because I agree with 99% of what it is saying. I have absolutely no trouble with different roads in my games, they happen, they're part of why Mage is a cool system.

I just don't like that specific example of "Life alters the brain chemistry to make you feel love towards X". It's too far along the gradient towards the Mind purview. I suppose even there there's situations you could fluff where I could find it more bearable.

>>55261750
That wasn't me.

>>55261798
Well excuse me, it's not like I can read minds or anything.

>>55261717
>but in play it isn't like they're instant wins
Psychic Domination, command the individual to stay still and do nothing.
Exceptional Luck, cast reflexively, boost spellcasting, you can almost certainly succeed at any other spell you cast, powerfully.
Shifting Sands, unless the other person has Time Sight, you can jump back an entire scene, and avoid everything that would go wrong, or act with full knowledge of a problem.

Even ignoring players who wouldn't use them, the existence of such spells, and Mages who know about them, would radically shift the way Mage society operates.

Unless everyone's a braindead retard.

It's like Shadowrun. Security designers in that universe have relatively full knowledge of Magic, meaning that anti-magic countermeasures are applied with reagrds to all known threats.
A similar proposition should be made with regards to Mage.

>>55261827
You're really overhyping these spells, while simultaneously disregarding a lot of various factors. It's not like two dot scrubs with Gnosis 1 are going around casting these spells at their full potential like a matter of course. I also don't see how they would radically shift Mage society. At all.

Is Scion discussion acceptable here, as it was a WW game?
I've found myself in a Scion game being run by a friend, and it's interesting enough. Guy has a lot of houserules, tho, to keep it from getting too wacky, I wager.

>>55262031
Only retards start with gnosis 1 anon.

>>55262230
Its not a WW game tho so fuck off.

>>55262031
While I'll concede that Psychic Domination and Exceptional Luck lose a lot of potency when you don't know them as a rote (which any Mage who understands their power would do), Shifting Sands is by far the biggest game changer.

With no dice penalties, and 3 reach (of which only 2 are unaccounted for, as per default), a Gnosis 1 Mage can turn back an entire scene. And unless you've somehow temporally locked that part of the timeline, or you're counterspelling, there's no way to stop that.

Plus, even a Gnosis 1, 2-dot scrub can make significant use out of Psychic Domination and Exception Luck with a rote.
Far more than I would expect or want the most basic bitch Mage to be able to do.

And what happens if as a GM, the players meet another Mage who's more powerful than them?
They're not limited by being a piece of shit. They may have full capacity to wind back time, trap you in a spatial bubble, teleport you to the moon, remove all of your senses, transmute you to stone, immerse you in the pavement.

All that jazz.

I get that's the 'point', but after running 4 Mage games, I'm well and truly sick of its power level.

>>55262257
White Wolf wasn't behind Scion?
Despite having the WW logo on the goddamn cover?

>>55262265
>Shifting Sands is by far the biggest game changer.
Assuming that going back in Time really helps. You could always just disallow the Reach effect, of course. And split Psychic Domination into 2 spells, with the more controlling version being a Patterning spell. It's not hard. I would also remove the spellcasting Reach for Exceptional Luck. Never really made sense to me anyway. The books do encourage you to change things you don't like, and admits that you might find a need to tweak the rules.

As for other Mages, the ones under your control as ST, they could do a lot of dick moves, but in essence that would be you doing dick moves to your players, and why would you be doing a lot of that? And what's gone down in your games to make you sick of Mage?

>>55262239
Players aren't allowed to spend Merit points on Gnosis at my table, so everyone starts with Gnosis 1 in my games.

>>55262401
While Gnosis 3 is the best investment anyone will ever make, merits can be total bullshit.

>>55262417
For sure, but at least they're more interesting and add more elements to play. I don't disallow it because muh powergaming but rather because it bores me to tears.

>>55262278
>In 2012, Onyx Path Publishing purchased the full rights to Scion, and are planning their own new edition.

Suck my huge enormous cock now pls.

>>55262488
Well, good thing Scion 1e is still a WW product, and OPP is still contracted by WW for WoD related materials then.
Now enough of your cuckoldry.
While the game has been good so far, the characters are fairly snowflakey, not so serious.
The only real issue I have is more ooc than anything: I've learned that one of the players is using an old pc from a prior campaign, and is nearly twice as powerful as the other pcs. The player hasn't tried to show off outside of some curiously phenomenal social rolls, but I don't know if this is something I should take to the ST or not.
The player is an alright chap, his pc is far more down to earth in terms of background and presentation than most, and he doesn't try to take command or demand others kowtow to him. But the situation does set my alarm off, and I don't know whether I should take this up with the ST or not.
Advice on this?

>>55262230
Is it canon to either the World of Darkness or the Chronicles of Darkness?

Have the new vampire play test rules been put out yet?

>>55262577
The Scion books do have some mentions of events from older WoD books (and even how to recreate some creature analogues, like Antediluvians, supernaturals during WW2), but it is considered it's own setting.

>>55262569
So how come the ST doesnt know the dude has a PC twice as powerful as the other PC's?

I mean was he even there when they were made, did he even check them? Sounds like a shit GM running a shit game.

A gnosis 4-5 Adept/Master abusing Psychic Domination is pretty much an instant win against non-Mages.

>>55262848
I am assuming the ST knows because he hasn't batted an eye at some of the guy's rolls.
To wit, scion pcs get exponentially more powerful, and the ST did look over and give every pc sheet his stamp of approval, so either the guy is completely cheating or the ST is alright with it. The ST said he has been running Scion for some years, so I frankly don't see how he doesn't already know.

>>55262866
Lower dot Practices become monstrously more powerful the higher you go.

>>55262866
...So?

>>55262908
I'm acknowledging the fact that 2 dot Practices are enormous in weight.

>>55260354
Fate 4 in 1e let you counter mind control effects that would usurp your destiny or some such.

>>55261524
>The biggest offenders to me are Psychic Domination, Shifting Sands, and Exceptional Luck.

>TFW no mention of Kinetic Shield or gravity control

>SadObrimos.jpg

>>55262953
how does it feel to be the leas liked of the paths?

lel

>>55262949
That's Fate's 4-dot attainment in 2e.

>>55260515
Sure, if Dominate worked by altering your brain chemistry.

>>55262953
Those are more controversial, and less uniformly applicable.

>>55262949
>>55262965
Shit. I forgot about this. Mystery solved.

>>55262971
Depends on how you look at it

>>55262982
Gravity control isn't controversial.
Kinetic shields would be

>>55260475
This writing is kind of bad. Not the context of the scene or anything, but with the way it handles it. Just really heavy handed, and the similes and metaphors are kind of meh. "I smile like a dead woman smiles" would be better replaced with something more direct like "I smile at her without humor".

Just nitpicking, really.

>>55262922
Yeah, it's part of how the magic system is structured.

>>55258761
Bluh, Dex and Wits godstats again.

>>55258761
I kinda want to run this, but my player base isn't that familiar with Vampire. How much work is this to run?
How much is spelled out and pre-written vs how much is improvised?
I know the first play test just murdered you for going off rails, is this similar?
Does it actually have char-gen or is it all premades again?

>>55262953
>SadObrimos.jpg

I suggest you keep that chin up, focus, and go incinerate some leeches,

There's nothing like the smell of greasy vampire ash to help cheer you up.

>>55258804
This actually makes a lot of sense.

Part of the "horror" of being a mage is being alone in a world of sleepers, and being one of the few awake. So having other similar, not the same by a long shot, would be comforting.

Also vampire society is generally much larger and more sprawling than mage society because there are so few mages by comparison. Vamps are the cockroaches of World of Darkness, for everyone you kill there are Ten more in the walls waiting to attack.

>>55263444
Mages aren't actually that rare compared to other supernaturals.
Hell, Dave once said he considered them to outnumber even Werewolves.

Truly powerful Mages are the ones in minority. And by truly powerful I mean multi-degree Masters. Adepts are not uncommon.

>>55263463
Can you point me to where he said that?
Because all other discussion I've read assumes that they're extrmely rare.

I mean, you can't breed/make them like Uratha, Vampires, Changelings, Prometheans and Geists.

Each is a cosmic coincidence, decided by the Watchtowers alone.

>>55263463
So an old post by Dave mentioned that newly awakened mages have 3 points in arcana.

Having 6 points is akin to them having some training via an order or mentor or just general experience.

>>55263521
>coincidence
These can hardly be said to even exist in a world where archmasters of fate are a thing

>>55263521
Alas I do not remember the name of the thread. All I remember was the topic about populations.

>>55263553
Fate is the weave of future patterns.
But NOTHING can determine who will Awaken.
Primarily, because Awakening is an act of Imperial Magic.

>>55263568
>Primarily, because Awakening is an act of Imperial Magic.
That means that every awakening is completely predictable because there is a conscious actor behind it.

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>>55263521
>>55263561
Never mind, my OCD convinced me to track it down.

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>>55263634
Nope.

>>55263635
Goddamn.

>>55263635
Watchtowers be popping out Mages like rabbits in Spring heat.

Scary shit, yo.

>>55259117

In DC canon, he is affected by magic like everyone else, or weak to it (depending upon the writer)

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Mage was a mistake

In oWoD mage, can an awakened person use hedge magic (linear sorcery)?

>>55264026
There'd be no need. Anything Sorcery can do a Mage can.

A Sorcerer Awakening to Mage status is essentially an upgrade.

>>55264026
Depends on the edition.
Earlier says they can, but usually wouldn't.
Later says they can't. Because they're so super special.

>>55264035
Sorcerers don't suffer Paradox.
Awakened Magic does.

>>55264049
That's about the only drawback

>>55264049
Both sorcery and true magic work reality. They're of the same source, only fhe former is linear while the latter is dynamic.

They're mutually exclusive because they're both technically the same thing.

Would Changelings be interested in having an Acanthus in their Freehold?

>>55264218
>Would Changelings be interested in experiencing a vivisection in their Freehold?
ftfy

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>>55264218
No

>>55264218
Depends if he's a cunt or not.
However you've also got to remember, his presence renders all contracts and agreements that they rely upon to feel safe, optional.

So sure, he could help.
But can you trust that he isn't altering and destroying everything you rely upon to keep you safe?

>>55264243
>Acanthus
>Not an asshole

Choose one.

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>>55264218
Dave assumes that there are 'Changeling Experts' among the Orders.
Likewise, there are more than likely experts of all splats out there somewhere.

I would even reckon that Mages know things the others don't.
Even things directly pertaining to their line.

>>55264286
>I would even reckon that Mages know things the others don't.
Well yeah, like how Sin-Eaters and Beasts are essentially humans Claimed by Ghosts and Goetia.

>>55264286
>this angers the special snowflake changeling fags

Do Vampires have feelings. Do you ever think Mages go too far?

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>>55264515
>vampires
>feelings
Ditch that falsely placed morality of yours

Which books besides core had merits for mages in 1e?

I want to compile and update them for 2e for an upcoming game.

>>55264035

The thing is that Hedge magic is technically safer (although weaker) than Awakened magic in that casting fireball will not get you ass-fucked by paradox.

It wouldn't be useless for a mage, there are times when that could be useful.

>>55264693
I don't think you understand. Mages can't use hedge magic. It goes against how true magick functions.

>>55264685
Pretty much all of them, good luck.

>>55264726
Lol, a archmage could just graft it unto himself. Idiot.

>>55264775
We're discussing OWoD, silly.

>>55263463
Werewolves in 1st ed were insanely common. It believe it was one Werewolf per 15k people.

Does anyone have pdfs of the old street fighter WW story teller game?

>>55265033
no

>>55265043
Fair, they're probably all god awful.

>>55264313
In Geist 2e, Claimed and Bargain are two different things.

>>55265097
>In Geist 2e, Claimed and Bargain are two different things.

That's nothing but ghost propaganda.

Read Premeditation.

>>55259076
The prince says "Follow the court wizard. Bring him back with all his parts intact. Don't be a dick. I'll 'reward' you." and you're going to do it.

Half of it would depend on the Prince. Someone like Vidal would probably REEEE and have an 'applicant' killed out of hand. Maxwell would do it, if he thought he had a hold over you - like huge sums of money flowing into your pockets in a very legal sense. You'd need it to stop Walsh Industries shitting all over you.

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Since we're all talking about treacherous viziers - or were - see pic related.

>>55265227
The treacherous 'power behind the throne' vizier is a very pervasive stereotype, indeed.

What makes Beast so terrible?

>>55265577
An easier question might be "What doesn't make it terrible". You ever see The Crow? You know how it's basically a love letter to the goth kids from 90s highschools? The Beast is like that, but without any of the redeeming features and not so much to the goth kids.

>>55265577

Beast is a mixture of tween revenge power fantasy and an ode to victim blaming.

There's also nothing really motivating the pc's except to tormet other to feed.

Almost nothing is redeemable in the game.

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most fashionable splat is what

>>55264794

There still is hedge magic in nWoD, so it would be relevant in that case.

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>>55266404

>>55266517
Vampires can graft it onto themselves, too. The Coil of Ziva is really great, plus the scales. Cut out peoples third eyes, but only after you stitch their face over yours to gain astral sight.

>>55266517
What supplement describes Hedge Magic?

>>55266581

Second Sight.

>>55266581
There's also some blatantly supernatural merits in GMC, and they don't suffer the same problems as the SS ones.

>>55266564
I think you mean Coils of Zirnitra.
Also Grafting a werewolf dick on yourself to shapeshift or maybe step sideways seems like a good idea right?

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Hedge magicians apparently outnumber actual mages even in the Orders.

>>55266648
This is... Interesting, to say the least. Curious.
Would it be feasible to use Second Sight in Awakening chronicles, you think?

I also have to wonder whether or not Mages can learn 'low magic' as well as Supernal magic.
They couldn't in OWoD as above Anons had taken note of.

>>55266599
Might I inquire the differences between the two?

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>>55266672
Second Sight magic suffers from a form of paradox-lite, where people watching make it harder to do. Or knowing about it. There are merits for people who actively inhibit it just by being nearby. GMC stuff doesn't. You can update it pretty easily by pulling it out, but a lot of the merits are already in the GMC book anyway. There are more in Hurt Locker for minor fate magic, cybernetic implants, etc.

Mages can learn 'low' magic, because they're still 'human enough'. There's just no point to it. Promethean even says that Mages can learn Alchemy. You can find in the attached this:
>"You know the bit in one of the mid-period Dresden Files when Harry goes to the bar and all the
minor hedge-magicians hush, because he's a White Council Warden and therefore like a shark in a
swimming pool? That's how a community of Second Sight-ers would feel about their local Adamantine Arrow...."

Far be it from me to take all His Words as Holy Gospel, all hail the Komodo, but it's a good illustration of 'why not'.

>>55266648
What do these hedge magicians do in the orders then? are the order predominantly not-mages to begin with?

This is something I think I completely missed while reading 1st edition of Lost: Was there ever any details on where Changelings hide their Freeholds?
I always imagined something like Johnstreets from Face the Raven episode of Doctor Who?

>>55266797
>on where Changelings hide their Freeholds?
In the hedge? What do you mean hide their freehold?

>>55266807
I always figured they kept them on this side of the Hedge for some reason? What I mean by hiding is that Freeholds always gave me image of being often kept physically inaccessible to mundane folks, so how would this be done without attracting attention?

How come you giys are quoting this DaveB character so much, did he do something good in the 2e or something?

>>55266854
He's the line developer.

>>55266854
He's the Hieromagus, you filthy Sleeper.

>>55266869
Okay thanks that kind of explains why there are people that would collect his forum posts in PDFs.

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>>55266854

>>55266896
You mist be the PDF-collector. I sure hope you're not also DaveB.

>>55266906
>>55266916
DaveB is the only person aside from Scriptarius I've seen have people asking to cum in his hair. It's a bit creepy.

>>55266916
I wish.

>>55266919
/CofD/ is essentially a mystery cult worshipping Dave Brookshaw.

>>55266928
Apparently so and 90% of the quotes they like from him, I think are pretty meh. I am assuming it's because they're shitty forum quotes out of context and when he writes things they're more interesting?

>>55266845
Freeholds are a secret society not property. Freeholds with means might have meeting spots in hollows or in mortal property or if they're not so fancy they meet up in someone's living room.

>>55266954
But Freeholds are massive. Motley's are Changeling cliques. Freeholds are at least university sizes.

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>>55266953
They use such quotes to spread his word. His gospel. His Truth.

>>55266954
It's changing a bit in 2e. There's the massive market in New Orleans that features Goblins, actual Fae and Changelings that's the 'freehold'.

>>55266965
>Freeholds are at least university sizes.
Unless they're changing it in 2e freeholds don't go anywhere near university sized.

>>55266967
So basically he's the guy who animated all the shitposters in these threads so they're 90% "muh faction is better than yours" shit instead of interesting game-stuff? Gee thanks.

>>55266997
Always pictured it that way. Might be because I've always lived in cities with several million citizens and it seemed logical that there would have been several hundred if not thousand changelings living in one.

"I think, [...] that most people will see mages as cosmically-overprivileged narcissists who don't live anything like normal lives but have the power to do whatever they want."

Yep, that is exactly how I see the mage splat. Spot on. GJ.

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>>55267021
wat

>>55267021
And who somehow totally deserve it since their monsters would eat all other monsters like breakfast flakes. Geez

>>55267024
It's from the DaveB quote archive up above.

Mages are the privileged cis white males of WoD

This is the only place where non-PC SJW tumblrites can mingle in peace

And you people wonder why this place is shit up constantly with Magefaggotry.

>>55267042
I'm sure there are other Ancient White People Conspiracy groups in the WoD. Invictus?

>>55267019
Freeholds as written have something like 25-150 lings in it. In the rare cases of there being more changelings they tend to split into multiple freeholds. This makes a certain back-handed sense since WoD splat politics are there to give players something to squabble for and not to provide real leadership.

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What are the benefits of joining the Seers?

>>55267057
Whoa, that's tiny.
All the talk about Courts and Communities made me think 30 was smallest Court, with at least 4 as many making the entire Freehold. I guess I was wrong?

>>55267067
Status dots work as mundane resources as well as the normal benefits for magical items. Prelacies are *obscene*. A massive mortal power structure. A really keenly honed sense for knives heading for your back (assuming you live).

>>55267067
Privilege at the cost of your free will.

>>55267067
Would I find Pooh Bear if I ventured far enough into the Astral? Could I then corrupt him with Seer propaganda?

>>55267105
Yes, no. You'd need to corrupt him by releasing a new series of Pooh cartoons, since he reflects that, not the other way around. And slowly rewrite literally every copy of the old stuff.

And recs for other possible systems that could support Changeling the Lost themes, moods and world building?

I'm considering running a VTM game where there might be long timeskips, and I remember at one point seeing rules on how much XP a vampire should accumulate while idle. Anyone know where that is?

>>55267117
You could probably corrupt him in the Astral real easy, only to realize you slipped in your Oneiros while trying, and all you changed is your own perception.

>>55267123
Alpha Omega, but you'd need to get weird and bolt on a morality system. You could potentially use purity and tear out implants.
>>55267131
Use v20, there's a character creation 'exp for a vampire age' table in there. Just work out the vampire's age and do some division.

>>55267131
If you do long time skips, it'd be smart to fit it to what you consider interesting, distinct power levels, instead of trying to keep to some abstract rule - because doing that raises the chance that the outcome at the table is interesting.

I'm noticing a lot that vampirism sucks. It sucks a lot. APPARENTLY at least.

Why is this? Do you lose all of your freedom once you've been embraced? Is immortality not worth it?

>>55267042
The main characters of Mage 2e was a lesbian couple dumbass.

>>55267163
Becoming a vampire turns you into a faggot

>>55267151
Never heard of that one. Can you point me to somewhere were I could read summary of the system?

>>55267163
It only sucks in 1e. In 2e it's pretty much super powers in exchange for living in the darkness.

>>55267131
Also go read some of the transyvania chronicle books they have time skips and have ideas for what to do about it.

>>55267190
what
There *are* no main characters. There are 15 'signature' characters in the books.
>>55267195
Best bet might be the old reviews, the PDF is a bastard to find a copy of. RPGnet maybe.

>>55267201
Not really. The main difference is that unlike 1e, you don't risk auto-frenzy when meeting someone new. And that you *will* frenzy eventually, thanks to the modifiers on the tempted condition.

>>55267190
But were they white?

>>55267207
Have the stories in 2e was about some dykes and a magic door. Did you even read the book?

>>55267163
One of the main themes of Vampire is that since your undeath, youlost a very important part of your humanity, and there is now a beast that shares your body and your mind. What exactly it is, is intentionally left vague, and there are only few hard mechanic consequences.

If your group wants to, you can just play like your undeath is a superpower (and it will turn out like this in many scenes anyway). But every time the game itself tells you distinct examples of Vampires, a noticeable portion of it is coming to terms with the monster inside yourself, one way or another.

>>55267207
Anything less crunchy?

>>55267222
So you're talking about the fluff fiction? So? How are those main characters? If you want to paint main character, it's going to be the censor who managed to annihilate his entire life. The one the thing is from the perspective of.

>>55258761
I downloaded the packets.
Problem: in the pastebin playtester says they reduced the attributes to 3. On the packets I see the standard 9, what's the meaning of this?
What am I reading? What was the playtester playing?

>>55267238
Burning Wheel, maybe? Traveler, or Eclipse Phase? Burning wheel might be a bit hard, actually. Scratch that. More for early era games. EP's pretty straight forward and entirely free. Reskin psi powers as contracts, morphs as seemings, stress as clarity, etc.

>>55267190
Were they? I only skimmed that. It was so boring compared to 1e's fiction, or the fiction from the Mysterium and Free Council books.

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By the way has anyone commented on MTA: Refugee, that sneak peak mobile game for the new Mage, where the protagonist is a Swedish lesbian black transgender paraplegic who works in a feminist bookstore by day and helps refugees by night?

Such relevant, many contemporary!

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>>55267217
>>55267246
>moving the goal posts

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>>55267359
>The main characters are two lesbians!
>The main characters are not two lesbians, they're side characters in a piece of fiction, not even the main characters in that.
>REEEEE STOP MOVING THE GOAL POSTS

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What would he be in the Chronicles of Darkness, Anons?

A True Fae? An Abyssal horror, maybe? Or something other?

>>55267401
A MAGE killer

>>55267401
>What would It be
FTFY

It, for me, leans closer to a True Fae, but is thematically more appealing as an Abyssal intruder.

>>55267401
Legend Undertaking Slasher

>>55267401
A really bored Archmage

>>55267401
Abyssal Horror.

It's pretty much stated IT is from beyond the boundary of our universe, and it obeys a set of internally consistent rules that have no reason except that they are IT's rules and they work for and against IT. Most likely Mind sphere base.

>>55267471
Sounds like a True Fae

>>55267487
True Fae don't do well and iron always works on them. Cold iron only works on IT if IT is in a form that cold iron would harm - c.f. the silver slingshot incident. Belief is the key, where the True Fae don't need belief as a catalyst.

Also, it exists in the real world, unlike True Fae which hide behind the hedge.

>>55267515
Fair enough.

>>55261819
>not being versed in Mind

>>55267471
Abyssal Horror is most likely the closest. He comes from the space between worlds that shows up in a lot of Stephen King's books, officially called Todash space in the Dark Tower books. It's full of mindbogglingly horrible creatures that exist beyond the bounds of reality. IT is most commonly known as a clown. Pennywise. But that's only one of its forms. It's able to detect fears, and project itself as those fears. A lot of mental powers. And it does it for no other reason than people taste better when they're scared, and kids are easier to scare and manipulate. It's true form is beyond physical, and drives people instantly insane. And get this, its bane is the power of will. Willworking, you might say. I suppose the next closest analogue might be a demon from the Lower Depths.

What would the Turtle be though?

I am thinking about maybe making Changeling theme with one of the main themes being "Humanity creates our own worst monsters".
In this iteration of World of Darkness True Fae are scions humanity in future post scarcity and singularity, where limitations and restrictions became mutable and individuality and identity a mere luxury. True Fae are the spoiled cruel bratty child of humanity that learned nothing beside greed and will. The Hedge is complex biomechanical time machine that allows True Fae to mess and adjust the timelines they rule after and Wyrd is self-reinforcing tide of causality.
How does that sound?

>>55268427
It sounds like it could be neat if you built up to it right, but first you're going to elaborate on what you mean, or clarify. They're the what of the what from the what now?

>>55268465
Essentially what's left of humanity after singularity takes care of scarcity and mortality, but robbed them compassion or any drive beside desire to posses and strive for conflict. Leading to them seeing everything before singularity event to be fair game.
Their pledges, contracts and deals bound by Wyrd and rather their model of creating stable timeline for themselves and not accidentally grandfather paradox themselves out of existence.

>>55268534
So what's wyrd transcendence then? An urge to leave the universe?

>>55268668
I was thinking along the lines of "flexible causality". Temporal paradoxes resolve themselves but at someone's expense. Worst case scenario 'griefer' might find themselves stuck 'between' timelines no longer able to meaningfully to interact with time and space, so what happens to Fey when they are tricked into undoing their "existence clauses".

>>55268770
Wyrd transcendence is people getting 6-7 titles, though, rather than death through title loss/oath breaking.

>>55268818
Ah, right Wyrd Transcendence. Completely forgot about that one. I don't know if it will keep existing in 2e?

>>55267846
When I clearly programmed you to crack this joke - does it mean I have Mind, or are you just a chump?

>>55268839
Charles Bailey mentioned something about it in a future book. It seems like you should just tie it to the god machine as a possible future iteration. Maybe where it's conquered by the likes of the deva corporation and turned into the slave of mankind, then torn out of the universe and transformed into the hedge. Some tie backs would be important for future extradimensional humanity.

What level of auspex do you need to bypass the penalties of being blind?
Was thinking about making a blind toreador swordsman for my next VtM game

>>55269627
1
Stop being a retard.

>>55268882
>Charles Bailey mentioned something about it in a future book.
who?

>>55269764
Also known as Rose Bailey. Anon is engaging in the dreaded "deadnaming", calling a trans person by their given name.

>>55269843
Need before and after pics.

>>55269843
Her given name was Russell.

>>55269874
Is she the same person as this DaveB, or is she this GM on youtube? Also get off my lawn.

>>55269764
Now known as Rose. I never know if the person who goes berserk about it is here, so it's easier to call him Charles to ensure they have a sperg - just in case they are.

>>55269957
Atamajakki, another trans man.

>>55269957

That sounds really stupid.

>>55267248
They reverted the change. Back to 9.

>>55271374

I kind of wonder if they could get away with 6 stats.

>>55271539

see i'd go the other way, up to 256

>>55271554
FATAL?

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What arcana would I need to turn into an Adult Red Dragon?

>>55265033
Yes i actually have it

>https://mega.nz/#!MOgRhBLJ!YRfqA6WCWFvapxW4jCUCMKq0wUpjlIebpTYUYfPW6R0

>>55273686
thanks!

>>55273098
Life 4, Forces3, Matter 3 (mass increase).

>>55273098
Life 4 with a -6 penalty for size, reach for advanced scale. Forces 4/5 for firebreath, flight, depending on how weird you want to get about it.

I have to questions to ask!

First, I just got around organizing the final piece in a long running series of stories in the cWoD, nearing the End of Days, I've got a pretty cool crossover group who have good reasons to help each other and a decent setting, so I was thinking of going the extra mile, so I'm making everyone drawings of their characters and I want to kick the ambientation up a few notches. I need some cool ambience music for the final nights, some investiagion themes, some battle music, basically, the quintessential music a WoD needs, I've found some stuff, but I'm tired of re-using the good old Bloodlines OST, and all my players know it already. So if you could point some music I could use that would be awesome!

My second question is more a lore thing, I want my next campaign to be a little more fantasy, so I wanted to use the arthurian myth, is there anything already stablished about it in the lore of the cWoD? I know there's probably info but I haven't had the time to look it up, so if you don't feel like explaining stuff, if you tell me where can I find it, I'll be sure to check it myself, thanks in advance!

>>55273902
Hecq - Come Home is good 'mysterious place' music.

King Arthur is a sleeping guruhl in oWoD. An angry one. He's in hibernation until the Apocalypse, when he'll return and murder everything for not being a werebear.

>>55273940
God that's fucking retarded.

>>55273952
It's oWoD. Pick your desired historical figure, then throw a dart at a board with assorted supernatural types. We're probably just lucky he wasn't a secret bog mummy over from south america.

>>55267401

Weeeeeell, I had Pennywise and Freddy in mind when writing my small parts of Beast. So... A Beast.

Or an Abyssal entity.

>>55263634
And that someone is "whoever built the Watchtowers, who we are going with calling 'Oracles' for lack of a better name." Ya'know, like it has been since the 1e corebook.

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>>55274066
>Pennywise
>A Beast

Never. I refuse.

>>55264286
By "Changeling Expert", I envision one extremely put-upon Acanthus Mystagogue who everyone runs to every time they meet a strange creature that goes on about faeries, who once helped a changeling kill and re-replace their Fetch in exchange for an interview about the basics.

In a crossovery setting, where all these creatures exist, it has always strained my disbelief that they'd know *nothing* about one another.

It's like vampires. In pretty much every Mage chronicle, I've run, there's been the conversation "what, you didn't know vampires exist? If one gets in your face tell Provost X, he's the one with one of them in his phone contacts that has some kind of policing job. And try not to cause an incident."

I'd expect the local Prince to know where a couple of werewolf Packs hang out, too, or the werewolves to know where in their Territory a Thyrsus has her Sanctum. Or for the Moros Councillor for the Consilium to be on "polite nod when passing one another through the upper reaches of the Underworld" terms with a handful of Sin-Eaters.

>>55274255
Hey Dave if you got a moment.

How does travel between alternate realms work w/ the arcana?

For example the underworld. So with Death 3 a Mage could force open an Avernian gate and access the underworld the 'normal' way.

And at Death 5 you could create a gate to the underworld. And in theory at Death 4 you could just send yourself over.

But is the location random or can it be determined with the magic and/or Space attainments?

>>55274246
Pennywise's fear and murder schtick seems about right but what It is doesn't match the Beast paradigm at all.

Now if It wasn't more than just Pennywise, that might not be a bad Beast matchup. Fuck your lessons, he's here to ruin lives and eat.

>>55274255
I'm in a mixed game and the vamp is a member of the Ordo and basically pumping everyone at all times for information to get him scholarly notoriety and invent new scales/coils.

Everyone else is kind of 'oh cool, you're spooky' but he's an anthropologist of the spook

Thanks for helping be semi supportive of our terrible game universe!

>>55274380

With the Shadow, unless you use Space as well you punch through to the analogous location. The problem is that the Underworld doesn't map to physical reality. Unless you specify with Space, your new Death 5 Iris probably goes to the Upper Reaches (if cast on Earth to go in) or somewhere random (if cast in the deeper parts of the Underworld as an escape route).

In my own Chronicle, the characters rejected the idea of having much of anything to do with the Shadow, but as one of their Hallows has an Avernian Gate in it they've been enthusiastically mapping their "local" part of the Underworld, finding where other gates they find in the tunnels go to in case they need them in the future.

>>55274629
Awesome thanks for the advice. I'll take it into account once my players start trying to zip around multiple realms.

I wonder if second edition of CtL will include any cool examples of Titles as both Actors and Props.

>>55274066
>when writing my small parts of Beast.

What parts of Beast did you write?

>>55274779
The non shit parts

>>55274779
>Dave writing for Beast
The parts that don't suck, clearly.

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>>55274799
>>55274806
>Dick e DavB, DaveB!

Why should Mage be even considered part of the rest of the setting if they are literally from entirely different genre mood wise, are greater than antagonists and highest rank hitters of other splats, and if their antagonists would leave other splats completely meaningless?

>>55274857
>urban fantasy
>vampires, witches, werewolves, fairies, demons, etc

Yeah, they sure don't fit in the setting anon

>>55274888
I was told it was horror, not D&D but in modern day and just edgy.

>>55274903
>muh personnel horror
WoD has never been, and will never be horror. No matter how hard OPP / WW tries

>>55274922
Oh grow up and accept that only thing that connects your shitty 3.5 to rest of the gamelines is system and your childish refusal to indulge other moods and genres.

>>55274975
WoD's always been about Gothic urban fanatsy - which leans on horror a fair amount, but certainly isn't by any means horror itself.

>>55274997
Well, excuse me, what makes Mage Gothic?

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Bake new bread, fagness

>>55275097

>>55274922
>WoD has never been, and will never be horror

I disagree.

Anyone who's had the displeasure of reading Beast understands true horror.

>>55274806
>Dave writing for Beast
>The parts that don't suck, clearly.

There are few parts that don't suck, and I doubt Dave wrote the credits or index.

>>55275050
Gothic fiction is defined largely in part by the fantastical, especially where it incorporates the macabre. Mage is replete with both, and is in fact built upon the notion that universe doesn't work the way we think it does and that there are awe inspiring and gruesome secrets just tucked away out of sight.

Your typical Gothic character is essentially a prideful Mage - rotting away as they convince themselves they're great for learning the secrets of the universe up until the horrible implications of it all creep up on them and they start going nuts.

>>55274779

Lairs, and some of the crossover bits in the Antagonists section (Promethean, Mage, and Mummy - the bits on page 225 onwards)

And in the upcoming Player's Guide, the fully stripped-of-Mage-stuff Astral Worlds description. It always bothered me that the Beast core uses "Temenos" and "Anima Mundi" and such, when their experience of the inner worlds is completely different, rooted in their Lairs and the realms surrounding them rather than mage's Onion-layer meditative journies, so we expanded upon it.

>>55274066
Well I suppose you could consider him a Beast if you took the Hunger part rather literally.

>>55274255
>It's like vampires. In pretty much every Mage chronicle, I've run, there's been the conversation "what, you didn't know vampires exist? If one gets in your face tell Provost X, he's the one with one of them in his phone contacts that has some kind of policing job. And try not to cause an incident."
Like with Persephone and I would like to say Symmetry? Why do I remember these things?