/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

Am I powergaming if my Awakened character goes in heavy on Professional Training and Mystery Cult Influence?

>>55240819
It is impossible to powergame as a mage

>>55240819
Nope. You are powergaming if you spend all Merit dots on Gnosis.

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>>55240797
>That face when a Camarilla Venture implies he wants to learn how to do the Vaulderie.

>>55241096
Mages are even better in fighting with non-physical means. Home condemned? Get a new one with Mind or Fate. All your assets are frozen? Forces or Matter will make new ones for you. Life mage just don't need all those, Space magic will easily help you find those who crossed your way and throw them into the room with no exit.

>Shattered Masks
>A Shards (alternative) World Setting where the Masquerade comes down. What effect does this have on a world of darkness where vampires are suddenly real, and among us?

Sounds fun.

>>55240819
Shitty choice. What does Professional Training gives you what Arcana won't?

>>55241315
No different from Trueblood I would imagine unless there isn't an actual trublood. Than I would not know.

>>55241250
So you are working under the assumption the mage has access to his full toy boxat all times.

>>55240797
Changeling Supremacy

>>55241636
What are you talking about?

>>55241636
No, but every mage will have at least one way to deal with the immediate problems, and for everything else there is cabal and Consilium. I love how mage haters try to forget all the time that lone vampire/werewolf is just as vulnerable to non-physical attacks, if not more than the mage, who at least won't burn in the morning sun.

>>55241392
Cover from hunters

>>55241900
Like hunters are dangerous for mages.

>>55241392
A normal life

>>55241937
>Not paying pest control to take care of insects
Do you even play WoD?

Did that retarded "reeee crossover balance" Anon leave?

Wow. I just finished reading the last thread. I'm a tad annoyed I missed this dumpster fire.

It's always hilarious when a single ignorant Anon starts spewing misinformation about a line he/she does not grasp even minimally, AKA Mage/Awakening.

>>55236319
>>55236354
>Dave is wrong and biased!!

Really? It seems you just cannot grasp how potent of a line Mage is. Your pathetic crossover ideals are a nonexistent factor in the CofD.

Let's not bring the things that moron brought up into a new thread, please. The guy wasn't even familiar with 2e.

What happens if WW releases a new splat that's stronger than mages?

Will Mage fans revolt?

Will Mage haters view the fans of the new line as "the enemy of my enemy is my friend?"

Will Mage haters cry in the corner because their special snowflake splat is comparatively even less special and powerful?

Will DaveB be blamed no matter what happens?

Will the developer of such new line replace Dave as the our new favorite developer?

Will RichT continue to suck no matter what happens?

>>55241315
Season 4 of True Blood is what happens when hedge witches bring a true mage into their coven.

>>55242572
I've tried to picture a splat stronger than Mage, but it's hard. Power is their theme, and Archmages can, quite literally, do *anything* given the time.

I'd say maybe a 'God' gameline, like Scion, but Mages/Archmages challenge gods as a point of the setting.

>>55242580
I haven't seen the show what's the tl;dr?

>>55241315
More Changeling get captured because they thought they could fuck with Fair Folk and get away with it. There were massive pogroms when Mask went down first time. In geopolitical scale there is now second loopier North Korea that's everyone's neighbor and demands slaves.

>>55242623
Season 4 had a coven of witches facing off against vampires. Their leader was a spirit of a dead necromancer and terrified the vampires.

>>55242572
There's already a strong splat.

The Plain.

>>55242623

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKGuElySguo

>>55242608
Why? Demon and Mummy seem to be as Strong as Mage. If not more so. A god splat wouldn't work.

How powerful are Archmages?

>>55241315
>Genius
Trust in sciences would momentarily collapse as mass hysteria would sweep throughout the nations. Maniac Storms would create bardos of comfortable homogeneous and stable realities that would be raided by old and new generations of Geniuses. Massive amounts of unregulated Inspired would lead to global incidents as Illuminated would become norm. Eventually world governments would be approached by remains of Peerage or Lemuria and proposed Genius Registration Act to try to create semblance of order and common sense. Witch hunts for Inspired and people with mental disorders would occur regularly for over a decade among academia and government.

>>55242572
Gonna let you in on a secret: there are three species of magefag: mage fans, trolls for whom MAGE SUPREMACY is the tastiest bait, and sperglords sperging over poor interpretations of rules. So if there's a stronger splat, the fans continue being fans, the trolls jump over to SPLAT X SUPREMACY, and the sperglords have something new to sperg out over.

>>55242725
1. The strongest of mages are going to walk over the strongest of mummies and demons.
2. Archmages are the only god-tier template currently playable, and aren't supposed to be bested by their lesser.
3. Why are you still here shitting things up with your outdated 1e information? You're never going to have the crossover balance you want, not using RAW.

Go away

>>55242673
D E L E T T H I S

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Guys I just read Princess and despite it being a fansplat and in desperate need of a strong editing hand and conceptual and mechanical fine tuning I liked it

Seriously this is a legitimately better read than Beast was and it doesn't have the same troubling issues wrapped up in it while also insisting they're the One True Splat Everyone Descends From.

I know that's more an indictment of Beast than a Princess strength but still.

>>55241392
The fact that there are actually Mage players out there who think like this saddens me greatly. You might just be baiting, or false flagging, or have never played the game (or all three) but I know they're out there.

>>55242837
A gnosis 5 master mage will not walk all over a fresh mummy dumbass. Rebuke the Fucking Vizier

>>55242572
>What happens if WW releases a new splat that's stronger than mages?
The trolls will jump to that splat while Mages will join Demon and Mummy in being a stronger splat, but no longer the top dog with insufferable posters.

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>>55243292
Mediocre bait

>>55243292
>gnosis 5 master mage
>Unmaking

That's just not fair for the Mummy

>>55243292
Do all Mummies have that Utterance? Does it just completely no sell supernatural powers without a Clash? What about the Masters who have powerful Legacy attainments? What would happen if the Master opened a portal miles above the mummy and dropped a series of powerful bombs through it?

>>55243371
Rebuke the Vizier inflicts a Clash of Wills.

It, in all honestly, probably won't beat the Duration bonuses a Mage can set up to win out against it, either with Death or Prime.

>>55243371
Do all Mages have matter and death unmaking sense you need both to affect mummys?

>>55243371
A waste. The Master would Unmake the thing, or imprison it if it's worried about it coming back.

>>55242698
That looks like fun. What do you think Death 3?

>>55242725
>How powerful are Archmages?
9 Arcana all at 5 as Ruling, Gnosis 6-7 at the least, and one Arcanum above 5 dots that they can use to cast the Imperial Practices. They reside as their own realm in the Astral, and project themselves to the Fallen World in a body that really means nothing to them. No more than a regular Mage's dream body. They also auto-win Clashes against lesser supernaturals.

And that's just the barebones. Guys are pretty powerful.

>>55243406
Why would you need both? Death seems like it would be enough. Also, would you really need Unmaking to kill mummies?

>>55243406
This is 2e. You don't need to mix Arcana to affect other splats.

>>55243434
Yeah, Death 3.

The witch also conjured a barrier made of sunlight in a later episode.
Wonder how that would work using CofD rules.

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>>55243411
Hahaha no. Blessed is the God King, Forgetting the Name, Redacting the Word, and best of all Shadow Name to make all that shit work on a mage without a hitch

>>55243434
Probably Death 4. Unraveling, upgraded to Aggravated damage. Skin sloughing off and all that.

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>>55243496

>>55243490
>Wonder how that would work using CofD rules.
Making, if it was from thin air. Forces 5.

>>55242661
What does the vampire masquerade have to do with Changelings?

>>55243490
Forces 4 to turn ambient energy to sunlight or 3 if you're perfecting normal light.

>>55243528
No you only need forces 4 to convert ambient energies in the area into sunlight

>>55243490
>>55243528
It also tanked a rocket launcher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qojkae5S3bg

>>55243519
Not an argument magebabby. Gnosis 5 isn't beating Sekhem 10.

>>55243504
Did she actually damage her though? She only revealed the vampires 'true form' i.e. a corpse. That might be Death 2.

>>55243549
Exactly why I feel like Thunderbolt sets a bad precedent.

>>55243579
Shit, I meant Death 1.

>>55243556
>Obrimos with Death as third ruling

Interesting show

>>55243591
Why's that?

>>55243567
I'd agree with you, if not for ES Unmaking rules.

>>55243556
>Dont_irritate_the_Obrimos.webm

Or alternatively kinetic barrier in action.

>>55243604
More like Moros with Forces as third Ruling

>>55243620
Because it essentially turns Patterning into discount Making. Hey, I'll just take all this moisture from the air and convert it into some gold, or I'll turn the ambient heat into radiation, and so on. Not saying Patterning shouldn't be able to do those things, just that the process should be expanded upon more so that it can't be used just like Making for certain Arcana. Like extra turns or Reach required for it, or whatever.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgXMoZdY5A0

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So what does gnosis do? I have a friend playing a mage game where everyone had to start at 1 but I have not played mage so I don't really unstated the implications.

>>55243716
Gnosis is enlightenment, you filthy plebeian!

>>55243712
Marley would have made an amazing Thyrsus.

>>55243710
I think you're just not creative enough to see the potential in both Making and Unmaking.

>>55243716
>So what does gnosis do?
Adds to your dicepools, determines the number of yantras you can use in a spell, how much mana you can hold and spend in a turn, when you can join a Legacy and then get the Attainments, how many active spells you can hold, your ritual casting time, the max dots you can have in Arcana, your physical skills, etc.

>>55243716
It's your enlightenment/raw mystical power. Higher Gnosis means more dice when casting spells, shorter ritual casting times, and the ability to spend and hold more mana. It also increases your dicepool for paradox, because more power means bigger fuckups.

>>55243729
>>55243798
>>55243800
So it is similar to generation for a vampire then? Does locking it low to start with make the game scale slower or something I am kind of curious for the why.

>>55243710
Understandable. I spend more time wondering about the limits of the arcana before arch mastery.

Creating Nuclear explosions w/ Forces is a classic example back in 1e (and possibly 2e I don't know if Dave has commented on this). You simply can't do it without dynamics.

But there are so many ways around the bottleneck if you're willing to invest just a little more into different arcana. So from a storyteller perspective what's with the roadblock?

>>55243844
Low gnosis makes it hard to freeform cast, since your roll is Arcana+Gnosis with no beneficial Rote yantras.

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Quick question how many spells per day does a mage get? And or how many spell slots does a mage have?

>>55243844
It's the primary power stat. It just has so many benefits tied to it that Mages are incentivized to raise it as fast as possible.

Having it at 1 at chargen is seen as suboptimal by some players (read: 'that guy') who want to be able to perform crazy spells consistently right out of the gate.

Personally, I'm not a fan of magical autistic hobo player characters so I've banned spending merit points for anything other than merits at my table.

>>55243844
It basically means they have to actually spend their merit points on shit instead of dumping half or all of them into Gnosis to jumpstart themselves by 5-10 Experiences.

>>55243978
LEL

This isn't D&D

>>55243978
>Quick question how many spells per day does a mage get?
As many as they want to cast.

>And or how many spell slots does a mage have?
A number directly equal to their Gnosis, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing here.

>>55243999
What a fucking faggot. Sucks to be your players thankfully I will never have to play at your table.

>>55244020
Never said it was.
>>55244038
So what do you mean by the spell slots?

Lorewise, not mechanics, are Mages still the strongest of all the supernaturals?

Do the others fear them?

>>55243978
>how many spells per day does a mage get?

As many as they want from ruling arcana, rotes and praxis w/o mana costs.

For the rest of the arcana it's potentially limited by their mana.

And or how many spell slots does a mage have?

They can safely control a number of spells equal to their Gnosis. However they can reach past this limit potentially risking paradox.

There are ways around this limit w/ combined casting, relinquishing spell control, banner bearers, Sanctum, Imbued items/Artifacts (house rule but I'm sticking to it until Dave releases the FAQ), etc.

>>55241392
At chargen, numbnuts. It gives me an xp discount for a few skills, two specialties in those skills, and two free dots of Contacts.

>>55244079
>Do the others fear them?
Yep. Or at worst a healthy respect for their power.

>>55244069
>So what do you mean by the spell slots?
It means the number of spells they can have active in their Pattern. So at Gnosis 1 you could have 1 spell active, and for every spell you want to cast beyond that it costs a Reach.

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>>55244105
>>55244117
Oh ok thanks!

>>55244079
I'm not sure what you mean by this.

The mechanics are heavily integrated with the lore, more oft than not. Though common sense need apply.
That said, the various splats are highly wary of wizards, as true magic is the epitome of power.

Archmages treat everyone on earth, all seven billion, as pieces on a chessboard.

>>55244060
Honestly I agree with him. Encourages actual character building and wards off dipshits.

>>55244116
Mummys don't fear mages and neither do sin eaters and beasts for that matter. Whether they should or not is a different question.

>>55244079
Not sure about NWoD but OWoD the order of Hermies lost their genocide war against House Tremere, this was well House Tremere was being fought by the Tzimisce, and friends as well mind you.

>>55244079
>Lorewise, not mechanics, are Mages still the strongest of all the supernaturals?

Compared to other playable splats? Sure. However, something that fuckers keep forgetting to mention in the splat vs splat slap-fests are that Mages are small fry within their own cosmology.

>Do the others fear them?
I'd say other supernaturals are wary of them more than afraid. You don't walk out your door every morning afraid Floyd Mayweather is going to cold-cock you now do you?

>>55244141
>Literally STOP having fun in a way I don't like.
If I became a mage now I would literally have 0 merits so why can't I put them into gnosis.

>>55244166
>Blood Treachery

Ah, the "VAMPIRES RULE" supplement. That made no sense. They wanted to make the Tremere look better than everyone else, even other Vampire Clans.

Luckily, Mage got revenge when they did the same to the Ravnos Antediluvian.

There are whole threads discussing how stupid the Tremere/Hermes war was, and how it completely nonsensical it was. It's often disregarded as canon.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/mage-the-ascension/1077627-how-could-the-tremere-manage-to-win-the-first-massasa-war

>>55244192
You must be a shit human then. You could also probably spend them on backgrounds.

>>55244166
The Massasa War was a joke, and proved how salty Masquerade writers were. Salty enough to infiltrate the Ascension team.

>>55244207
Wasn't the Ravnos antiliduvian going absolutely insane at the time and eating everything he could?
And I thought that was a coop between mages, vampires, and kuijin.

>>55244192
You don't have to stop doing anything. You could also literally buy any other number of Awakened merits. A Familiar, a Mentor, Infamous or otherwise, a Sanctum, Hollow, artifact or imbued item, among others.

>>55244259
The Union joined the fray last after three days.They bombed the three Methuselahs and disintegrated the Antediluvian.

>>55244259
Kind of. Not really. The Union was a third-party. They used Forces 5 to kill Ravnos.

>>55244308
Aren't Antediluvians on the level of Archmages? Why would it only take five dots to kill one?

>>55244079
More cautious than fearful. That is, until you meet and/or anger on in person.

>>55244407
Not even close, if past threads are anything to go by. Archmages are practically alien.

Ravnos was weakened though.

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>>55244207
>>55244241
Its so stupid because the Massasa War could have been a cool idea. All they had to do, all they fucking had to do, was change it so that instead of pretending vampires were more powerful and had the edge [which they OBVIOUSLY don't], make the vampires focus on attrition and zerg-tactics.

Mages can't replenish their numbers, Vamps can, easily. Its literally their singular advantage, is how fucking easy it is to make them and thus how many of them they are. Don't tell me the Mages are squishy when they're not, show me a cabal trying to defend a Chantry when a hundred fresh Cainites charge the gates with a pile of Sleepers to cause weaponized Paradox for good measure.

Everyone knows an Adept is better then a Neonate. What about 50 Neonates?

>>55244485
90s White Wolf man, complete amateurs.

>>55244485
Well was the war before, or after the diablre of Saulot? Tremere being a vampire with generation 3 even if he is constantly falling in and out of torpor would be absolutely devastating on the field of battle, his children would be too, also I would not put it past them to use him to mass embrace to get a bunch of gen 4 vampires. The mages would not send their best to a war like that most likely, it would be the younger ones sent to fight.

>>55244592
Are you retarded or what?

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>>55244592
We're talking about the Second Massasa War. The First Massasa War is a curb stomp battle because paradox doesn't effect the Hermetic Paradigm yet. They could literally scry Tremere's location and nuke him from orbit and suffer nothing for doing so.

A single master could teleport him and his whole inner circle into the sun. Its literally a non-battle.

The second War at least has some potential interesting elements because of Paradox and the numbers disadvantage. The numbers disadvantage means practically nothing during the Summer of Doissetep.

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>magefags at the mention of Blood Treachery

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>>55244705
Unless there is some reason they could not, or perhaps it was their own arrogance of their greatness, they did not feel the need to.
Really it feels like mage just has a disconnect between what people say is possible here and what is done in the lore, and even what people do in actual play.

>>55244767
Not really. We just like to apply common sense to war scenarios. Pretending that both sides acted like autists isn't a good argument.

Just look at the Week of Nightmares. If it was so easy to kill a third gen Antediluvian, the Masassa War shouldn't have been an issue.

>>55244767
I'm running Ascension now, and usually when it deals with its own lore, its fairly consistent. Almost every crossover is them acting like morons for no reason and forgetting their powers.

>>55244803
>If it was so easy to kill a third gen
It was not easy they shot him with a space mirror that was reflecting the sunlight directly onto him.
Did the order of Hermies have that kind of tech for the war?

>>55244767
Using Ascension mechanics, no less those from Dark Ages, there was no reason for them -not- to end the war in a fortnight. I get what you're saying, but this just isn't good form.

>>55244849
>Using the countless satellites around earth to redirect sunlight onto the Antediluvian
yeah it was SO difficult.

>Did the order of Hermies have that kind of tech for the war?
They wouldn't need technology to do that.

>>55244849
Stop pretending. The Week of Nightmares was shit. The Technocracy fucking one shotted three Methuselahs and two shotted an Antediluvian.

Stop supporting the crap WW writers.

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How does changeling 2e look? If it looks like trash, how is it worse than 1e?

>>55244881
They also used bombs that damaged the spiritual world, and yes using multiple satellites to all target one place with a shit ton of sunlight is difficult and not something that most mages could do.

>>55244828
How else would they have written crossover material without the mages acting like mongs?

Realistically, mages should have been the ones running the world in owod. the union was the fucking star trek federation.

>>55244901
Using things that the Hermetics would not have access to in the massah war, and also showing they can not just magic away low generation vampires, because if they could it would have been a lot safer and more pragmatic to do so.

>>55244918
Yeah, that was silly. They could have teleported Ravnos into the sun instead, as he had no Correspondence Wards. The Union was written off as Team America in that scenario.

Redirecting sunlight is also 4-5 dots. Their technocratic Paradigm demanded that they used the satellites. They couldn't have just conjured sunlight from nothing.

>>55244849
>they shot him with a space mirror that was reflecting the sunlight directly onto him

So, only Forces 4 or 5. They didn't even need the help of any of the Technocrat Archmasters (who seemed to all conveniently be away on vacation for... reasons).

>>55244910
Given the level of rewrites that we're dealing with, we really don't know.

However they dropped the retarded "Your Seeming is how you escaped" mechanic.

>>55244948
Are you serious? You're assuming that the magic of the past is somehow inferior to the technology of the present. That's contradictive to the setting.

>>55240797
>What's the most unusual NPC you've encountered?

Fishop

Any good ideas for an Obrimos legacies with Fate or Time as a third Ruling Arcana?

So this is Mage general now ?
No other splats allowed ?

>>55244948
Anon. They were written off as morons. There was no reason for them not 'magicing the vampires away'.

We're using mechanics here. It's piss easy for even a mid-level mage to do this.

>>55241315
Wasn't that just world of darkness revealed from mirrors? I guess they just have a whole book to narrow down on one particular splat then

>>55244979
No but can the magic of the past just redirect sunlight without causing issues?

I'm pretty sure I also remember a part of the mage book going over don't do stupid shit with magic because you will attract bad attention.

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It only takes six dots in Correspondence to beat any non-Mage. Yes, it's retarded.

:^)

>>55244932
When I wrote my Ascension campaign I did it by ripping up half the setting notes so that the factions actually interconnected and interacted.

The problem with oWoD is the setting sometimes acted like it was one big setting and other times tried to stay independent gamelines and the result was a tattered mess.

Now said tattered mess is an absolute GOLDMINE for ideas, but a consistent setting it is not. Any crossover between Mages and Vampires should be clear from the start its a competition between a numerous weak splat and a small elite splat.

>>55245015
>Hugely Vulgar even with no sleepers watching.

>>55245004
The magic of the past did not attract Paradox, Anon. The Technocratic Consensus wasn't in the fold yet.

This wouldn't be 'redirecting' sunlight, it would be flat-out making it.

>>55244996
>So this is Mage general now ?
>No other splats allowed ?

Of course not.

Discussions about Proximi and Sleepwalkers are always welcome.

>>55245037
>implying archmages care

>>55245039
Wouldn't this still attract the attention of other entities?
It seems like there is a disconnect between what the mages 'can' do and what the mages are capable of doing.

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>>55245037
Taking a Paradox hit to kill Caine? Worth it.

>>55244992
>Any good ideas for an Obrimos legacies with Fate or Time as a third Ruling Arcana?

An Obrimos with Fate is little better than "cheating."

>>55245065
No? Why would you even think that?

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>>55245004
That's called Paradox, and it came into existence in the 1500s. The Masassa War predates it by centuries. You can be as blatant as you want. This is the era where wizards fucking did whatever they want, indirectly leading to the Order of Reason [later Technocracy] taking power.

There is literally a rote in the Dark Ages book to create your own giant column of sunlight from heaven to burn shit for you.

>>55242572
From our perspective? Nothing. These threads are already filled with so much shitposting just adding more raw quantity on will chance absolutely nothing.

>>55245102
So why weren't they then?

>>55245065
>>55245090
The entire 'disconnect' is that in modern times the powers of mystical Mages aren't believed anymore so they cause Paradox, a force of energy that rapes your shit if you're too blatant about what you do.

In Mage's cosmology, all technology is technically a form of magic, just one that was specifically designed to work for normies. Things like Boeings and Hydrogen Bombs don't cause Paradox in modern times.

Their Hermetic equivalents, such as when Solomon and the Taftani literally commanded armies of djinn at their leisure, don't either.

>>55245123
Bad writing.

>>55244978
Isn't it in the last stages of development? Should I brace for a trash fire?

>magefags redpilling newbies on mage supremacy

I'm out

>>55242572
>Will RichT continue to suck no matter what happens?

RichT (like Brucato) is a once and future douche. Sadly, not only will RichT never change, it seems WW's new Swede overlords are no better.

>>55245165
its onyx path so yes. I don't even think they're as bad as some on here but eeeeehhhhh.

>>55245114
Its a little bit comforting in a way. I mean even if deviant or contagion chronicle or any other new fancy OPP/WW publication is just outright dreadful nonsense, we can't really sink any lower than we have already.

>>55245181
I believe, and I say this as a fan of the game, that World of Darkness is the one IP that's so bad already that being owned by Swedes couldn't make it any worse.

>>55245406
>we can't really sink any lower than we have already.

And thats the moment when Magefags say "hold my beer"

>>55245451
>And thats the moment when Magefags say "hold my beer"

"Hold my wand..."

FIFY

>Mages aren't as powerful as the magefags claim
>Mages are as powerful as the magefags claim

Which one is it?

>>55245508
It's the latter. They're powerful and it makes a lot of people really mad for some reason.

>>55245508
It's both. They are constantly and consistently overwanked, but they're not wrong about them being at the top of the supernatural food chain.

>>55245508
The things that can match mages

methuselahs
antediluvians
caine
gods
demons
mummies
true fae

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>>55245527
Really makes me feel like mage must be a boring game if all people seem to do in it is figure out how to stoke their power fantasies.

>>55245564
Unlike the other splats, it's about cosmic horror and knowing the unknowable, not street-level modern fantasy. Mage might be the most Lovecraftian splat aside from Hunter (if you have a good ST) or Demon (again, if your DM focuses on the God-Machine in that way).

>>55245564
Except in a mage game, EVERYONE is as powerful as you are. The question is, how well can they use their power compared to how well you can use yours, and can you use your power well enough and carefully enough not to HAAaarbblbGGHHABBLLEEEBAGGL.

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>>55245508

>>55245551
>methuselahs
OWoD: Maybe, likely not.
CofD: No, Methuselahs are just old and potent Vampires.
>antediluvians
Clearly. Until you throw in Archmages or clever usages of five-dot Spheres.
>caine
Been there. Done that.
>gods
Again, until Archmages are thrown in
>demons
OWoD: It's a mish mash.
CofD: Similar power-scheme
>mummies
Same as above
>True Fae
A cunning Acanthus says 'no'
An Archmage looks at you and laughs

>>55245609
>>55245624
From the way people talk about it here it doesn't sound that way, it sounds like a droll wankery about how great you are. Honestly it killed my interest in trying mage, it sounds like the least interesting.

>>55245641
True Fae aren't even that powerful in their own splat. The stats for True Fae in the addon books for Changeling 1e are really low in comparison to other core antagonists. We're talking "fight them off with an iron fence post and win" low.

>>55245658
It's only wankery when other splats are involved, you dingleberry.

When Mages are actually facing their line's antagonists, AKA other powerwanking Mages, things are different.

>>55245678
Still sounds boring comparatively speaking.

>>55245641
I wasn't talking about archmages asshole

>>55245678
>M-mages are strong because m-mages are strong
What a shitty excuse.

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>>55245723
>factual statement
>excuse
What did he mean by this?

>>55245658

Honestly, Mages are barely playing in the same setting as everyone else. Including non-mages in a mage game is pointless and including mage NPCs in a non-mage game shatters the game. It's better to just treat it as a separate game line.

I've never seen so many hooks be around for so long and people be so adamant about biting them.

>>55245747
>Mages are barely playing in the same setting as everyone else

Except they are. Their cosmological outlook overlaps with most of the others.
The Supernal is a way of perceiving the Fallen.

>>55245778
This is bait

>>55245624
>The question is, how well can they use their power compared to how well you can use yours
A good ST means not very well compared to you. A game where the enemies are just as clever and paranoid as the players would be awful.

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>>55245678
Hahaha so you are telling me it's ok for mages to be so strong because enemy mages are so strong like what the fuck?

>>55245816
Dave's most recent comment flat-out stated that their pivotal antagonists are each other, you knob.

If that isn't evidence enough for the obvious I don't know what is.

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>>55245609
Sure whatever you say

>>55245839
That is fucking retarded how don't you see that?
>mage pcs are super powerful because mage npcs are super powerful
With that example Vampires should be super powerful because enemy Vampires are super powerful

>>55245882
You just don't get it, do you?

>>55245909
No I don't can't you enlighten me O Wise One?

>>55245909
Fuck You vampfag werewolves shit all over you and you need to respect central park. STOP trying to nerf wolfs and buffing vamps. Accept your place in the pyre leach faggot

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THESE THREADS ARE ALWAYS THE SAME

>>55244910
I wasn't too excited the last time I looked but that was months ago so not sure of its current state.

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>>55245940
I hear you want to become an abomination.

Do Prometheans in 2e have any way to graft animal parts on to themselves? Or like, werewolf claws or the like?

So I would like to solicit some advice, what are the ways to raise your generation in masquerade aside from diablarie.

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Autistic as ever.
Never change, /wodg/

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>>55246067
You're just projecting your own desires on others Leach faggot

>>55246239
be an assamite and go through that ritual, or a tremere to temp taise it.

otherwise you are shit out of luck

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>>55246278
Shh shh it's okay, everything will be okay soon, just drink this it will make you feel better.

>>55246239
Other than that fancy ritual, your out of luck. But back in the golden age of trenchcoats, katanas and goth qts. You could find kindred animals of any generation and diablerize them.

>>55246336
>>55246395
Guess that means I need to buff my will power and go hunt down a seventh gen or lower.

>>55246446
stolen from the OPP forums
>-. Ritual of Assamite Sorcery (From Marduk throat, in Blood Magic, someone already explained it in this topic)
-. A vial of water with some blood bead of Malkav, every drop lower of one generation the generation for the vampire (Fountain of Bright Crimson)
-. A concoction made by Giovanni, Cappadocian or whatever else, hidden in some church near the egyptian pyramids, lower of 1-2 Generations the drinker (Giovanni Chronicles 3)
-. An alchemical vial made by some genial cainite researcher, already killed (Alien Hunger); as above, may lower the drinker Generation, but probably has some side effects I don't remember
-. The Bitter Rose ritual (Diablerie Mexico, maybe somewhere else): essentially a group diablerie, where all the diablerist take on a Methuselah/Elder, if the Methuselah is of a sufficient Generation, all the diablerists lower their Generation of 1-2 steps

>>55246461
Thank you!
Any idea how to go about getting in character information about these?

>>55246508
No idea i'm afraid, check the book collection in the mega.

Given that White Wolf was named for one of the nicknames of Elric from Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champions series, is there any direct reference to Elric or any of the other aspects of the Eternal Champion in any of the RPGs? What about Law vs. Chaos and maintaining balance?

Does a character named Jerry Cornelius make any appearances, or anybody with the initials JC besides Jesus Christ?

Anybody got the rehashed Legacies pdf?

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>>55246847
Here you are m8
Got any more requests for updates?

I'd also suggest looking up 4plebs, and searching for the "Legacies" in future, in case I'm not here.

>>55246908
I was going to suggest Cwn Annwn, but it seems you've already done just that that! Thanks.

Does anyone have the black hand book for V20?

>>55247045
Sshhhh, you don't need that

>>55247055
Why not?

>>55247045
Should be in the pastebin.

>>55246908
How about Votary of the Ordained?

I don't think you've done a GotV one in a bit.

>>55247106
I could not find it, found every other book, but I will look again.

>>55247148
You don't need it

>>55246908
Rose of Eden?

>>55247169
I do need it though

>>55247181
No. You don't.

>>55247211
But it has the full diablarie rules.

>>55247247
That's not important.

>>55247148
>https://mega.nz/#F!cSRAhRSb!_w_CXRj14pgt8C9nP6ursw
Check in the Vampire folder, then V20

>>55247447
Thank you anon

>>55244079
>>55244116
>>55244164
>>55244138
>>55244485
Just out of curiosity, where to changelings fit into WoD? There's always discussion between the fans and within the lore itself about conflicts between vampires, werewolves, and mages, but never any mention of changelings. Is it just that they aren't aware of each other, or does each side think that the other isn't worth their time at all? I've never really understood where changelings stand in terms of power at their peak compared to other supernaturals, but in terms of numbers, changelings easily outnumber everyone else, considering that they can have armies and wars spanning entire continents and have rules for mass combat.

Obviously the real answer is that WW/OPP don't really care much about the supernaturals that aren't the Big 3, but I was curious as to what the in-game reason might be.

>>55247695
Changelings are relatively scarce. Good at staying hidden. They're not the strongest or the weakest of the Templates.

The True Fae on the other hand are quite terrifying.

>>55247695
Changeling: The Lost is quite popular. I would even consider it the secret fourth of the 'big three'.

>>55245641
Could Caine really be beaten by an archmage just like that? I'd imagine that someone cursed by God Himself and has been around since the dawn of civilization would be pretty damn hard to kill, if at all. I mean, his stats are literally "YOU LOSE", and presumably, if Caine is harmed, the damage is returned sevenfold, again, by God Himself. Don't really see much wiggle room for archmages to bullshit their way out of that.

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>>55247895
Probably something stupid like killing God. Mage is a boring splat with all the answers.

>>55247895
Beaten? No. Defeated? Yes.

there comes a point in Archmastery where the enemy is ineffectual, and while you may not be able to beat him, he'll have to go elsewhere because you can force him to be ineffectual.

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>>55247895
Prime 6 (plus some supplementary Spheres at 4) can undo divine curses. Archmages can turn Caine back to a regular, curse-free mortal. Then kill him. We've been over this so many times, please just let it end. I want off this ride.

>>55247999
But what prevents God from punishing the mage for his hubris?

>>55248025
What is to say that God is just another Mage? Seriously, it was hinted twice that a primordial Mage was responsible for the universe. Either Forces 9 or Prime 9.

>>55248025
At the minimum Sphere rating needed to kill Caine? God beats the archmage. Or maybe He laughs at his favorite whipping boy getting curbstomped, high fives the mage, then brings Caine back just to tell him to piss off, the adults are talking. Who the fuck knows.

>>55247728
Couldn't that be said of every supernatural splat? If they weren't all good at staying hidden, then there wouldn't be much point of a masquerade, would there? Oh, maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I was referring to changelings from Changeling: The Dreaming, not The Lost. It's just always seemed odd to me that even though CtD and the other splats vaguely acknowledge and are aware that each other exists, changelings seem to completely stay uninvolved in vampire/werewolf/mage affairs, and they in turn, seem to completely ignore changelings' existence. The Mist seems to be the only reason given for why the groups don't interact more, but that seems like a lazy copout. Princes can barely hold a single city together, yet the High King and Sidhe courts essentially manage all of North America, and whatever regions they occupy. That's a huge disparity in the levels of organization and coordination they can muster, even if changelings individually are a lot weaker than vampires. Maybe? I've never been too sure how strong or effective changeling magic actually is.

>>55247841
Yeah, undoubtedly. Honestly, I think that CtL is certainly even more popular than WtF, at least. However, Changeling: The Dreaming is kinda the autistic idiot savant black sheep of oWoD, where you either passionately love it or rabidly despise it.

>>55247895
The Seven-Fold Curse is too direct and specific to be of any real use against an Archmage.

>>55248094
The Avatars of Mages are supposedly the shards of either God or an extradimensional consciousness. If the former is true, then Mages are ironically responsible for the Kindred Curse.

>>55248102
Some splats don't even need to try to stay hidden. Mages being a good example.

>>55247895
Older doesn't mean better.

>>55248102
There was this funny little tidbit regarding Mages and Changeling crossover.

>"When the Resurgence occurred, the sidhe were given a crash course in mage proficiency. Duke Aeon challenged a member of the Order of Hermes to a duel, and His Grace was soundly trounced. As a result of skirmishes like this, the sidhe have become very interested in making alliances with mages, but are quite wary of the power they possess.


In the past Mages and fae folk were close allies.
Both are based around the whims of reality and have a lot in common.

In Awakening, the Veil, Mage's equivalent of the Masquerade, is not implemented to protect mages, but rather to protect sleepers from the deleterious effects of the Quiescence.

In fact, the Quiescence absolutely prevents any sleeper from remembering anything about supernal magic or phenomena.

>>55248190
>non-magical humans wizards beating innately magical fairies

I might be biased. But this irks me.

>>55248232
Why does one have to be innately magical to be better?

Even in D&D this is the case.
Humans are frequently better spellcasters than elves.

Mages also have Avatars.

>>55248232
True Fae are really not that powerful outside of Arcadia. A non-supernatural bodybuilder or trained combatant wielding a cold iron weapon have a strong chance against even the combat-oriented Fae statted in the books.

Is it worth leaving this place and just making an account on the OPP forums?

>>55248306
>Is it worth leaving this place and just making an account on the OPP forums?

Shhh..., don't tell anyone, but you can do both.

>>55248306
God no. You're walking on thin ice over there. All the mods are PC whores. SJWs galore. I remember somebody getting yelled at for typing 'gypsy' instead of 'Romani'.

>>55248335
But their book is literally called Gypsies.

>>55248329
After being here for a year I don't think I could survive over there without calling people cunts and fucks at least 50 times a day.

This place has ruined me.

>>55248264
He's talking about OWOD.

>>55248389
Oh, then in that case I don't know lol. I'm a CofD Changelingfag.

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>>55248335
Wash that filthy mouth of yours

>>55247895
>Taking the bait
fuck you

>>55248486
Is telling the truth automatically bait now?

>>55248306
You'd be trading one shithole for another. There's no good place to talk WoD anymore. The closest thing is the occasional VtMB thread on /v/.

>>55248589
There's an occasional Bloodlines thread on /v/ ?

More fuel for Mage supremacy.

>>55244992
There's one or two already.

>>55248658
It's by no means a regular thing, Sometimes there's only 1 or 2 a month, others there's spurts of full threads daily. Really depends on the mood.

Don't tell me you have so little of a life that you'd honestly stake-out /v/ for possible weeks just to post something off-topic?

>>55248742
I am a soulless bastard, Anon. It's your fault for handing out this information anyways.

>>55248786
Try it, I honestly wanna see you fail and trolling /v/.

Magefags don't actually care about Mage. They just shitpost for the sake of it.

>>55248796
Have you been to /v/

It's a cesspool of ass

>>55248800
Duh. This is known. Same 30-odd guys shitposting to shitpost. Mods oughtta just nuke the thread.

>>55248824
Yet still way better than this thread.

>>55248306
Reddit is actually the best place to discuss cofd. Rpg.net is a close second

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>>55249117
>reddit
>rpg.net
>best place to discuss cofd
STOP LYING

>>55249117
>>55249171
He might not be, I haven't checked them out, but it's hard to imagine places worse than this general and OPP forums.

>>55248191
Don't the Guardians also believe that paradox is slowly weakening magic?

Yeah. 1e doomed creation by saying every paradox widens the abyss. A Ladder attempt to build a neo Atlantis visibly dimmed the Watchtowers. 2e has gone quiet on that, but the Guardians still believe it.

So what's the most reliable method of inflicting the supernatural on someone permenently? Pieces of infrastructure to inflict Stigmatic? Mummy relics to make them witnesses? Chained werewolves and piles of drugs to make people wolf bloods?

>>55250293
Vampires. Lots and lots of Vampires. Ghouls even.

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Could the Union defeat CofD Mage organizations?

>>55247999
According to vampire that would not cut it.
>The Curse: No known spell can alter any aspect of the Curse of Caine or Clan weaknesses, though it is said that certain legendary grimoires contain the secret. For example, magi can shield vampires from sunlight, but can’t remove its power to burn. They can cast an illusion over a Nosferatu to help him blend in, but can’t remodel his flesh into something beautiful. Exposing Cainites to sorcery over an extended period of time won’t remove disadvantages, but may distort them in unexpected ways.
Vampirism isn’t a static condition; it changes its damnation in response to attempts to escape it.

>>55245039
Would not work by RAW according to vampire.
>Magical Fire and Sunlight: Sorcery cannot create true sunlight capable of burning vampires, but might transport it from a sunny area via sympathetic magic. Eldritch fire is as real as the naturally generated article, however.

>>55250435
>Would not work by RAW according to vampire
Except it works by RAW according to mage
See >>55245102

Contradictions contradictions

>>55250457
Mage RAW is that you can't get as many successes as god, so you can't undo vampire curses.

>>55250435
Curing Vampirism is Entropy 4, Life 4, Matter 4, Prime 6

It's an actual Rote. Though the supplement eludes me. It has been brought up in the OPP forums a couple of time, strangely on the Masquerade section more than the Ascension one.

>>55250457
>Contradictions

Welcome to White Wolf writing

>>55250471
I wasn't talking about the Kindred Curse, silly.

>>55250482
>Made up shit

Well, that's wodgen for you.

>>55250482
>Prime 6
Which makes sense.

Even in CofD it requires Archmastery to meddle with Templates.

>>55250457
That's not sunlight. That's something retarded mages that don't know how stars work thought was a sunlight spell.

>>55250498
Nah, I will find a thread where it's mentioned. Maybe even the name of the book.

Give me five minutes.

>>55250505
>That's not sunlight

Sure

>>55250482
>>55250498
>>55250512
It was mentioned in this silly thread.

It's also collected in the Masquerade Project, a project put together using canon supplements.

I too would like to know the name.
Maybe Blood Treachery?

>>55250567
Silly me. forgot the link.

Do ignore the topic, or indulge in it.
>http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/mage-the-ascension/97970-changing-vampires-into-lawn-furniture

>>55250505
Except the cosmology of Ascension means that the stars literally work however the fuck people think they work, get with the program.

Vampire inferiority complex is so bad it even got into their own writers, because their whole gameline is about how they secretly control the world and the idea that there's another faction who can make them completely trivial pisses them off.

>>55242673
"Storytellers should consider the fact that random people on the streets are frequently inspired to participate in this sort of citizen activism when they see it."

If you saw a vampire beating the shit out of somebody would you run over there to get your ass beat too?

>>55250435
Except making sunlight is 5 dots of Forces in Ascension and 3-5 dots in Awakening.

Not sure why they'd write something so blatantly contradictory.

>>55250587
One dude? And not visibly ripping the guys goddamn spine out with super-strength? Me and my mates would probably take the "Well there's more of us" approach.

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It only takes a single vampfag to stir up shit.

>>55250589
Obviously because 'sunlight' is different then sunlight from the star that the planet orbits around that god cursed Caine to die in a fire if it touches him. Probably the same reason vampires don't burn in star light, because Gods curse is really damn specific.

>>55250567
The Red Sign book for VTM is about Mages curing Vampirism, let me flick through and see if it's there.

To cure Vampirism using Prime 6 is nearly impossible depending on the age of the vampire and its relevant generation.

>The minimum Spheres necessary to undo the Embrace are Entropy 4, Life 4, Matter 4, and Prime 6. This Effect is considered vulgar with witnesses (after all, some would say it's the reversal of a supernatural curse) and is performed at +1 difficulty for every century (or fraction thereof) since the vampire was Embraced and every generation the vampire is below 13th (although it doesn't get any easier at higher generations). Thus, the difficulty to return the mortality of a 550-year-old, eighth-generation elder would be an impossible 24 (or difficulty 10 with 15 successes). Obviously, this Effect is not performed lightly - there are no mages who make a habit of going around restoring lost humanity to the undead, especially the powerful undead. There is no way to restore an Awakened Avatar to a victim of the Embrace, even after successfully reversing that Embrace.

To have absolute certainty without difficulty it would require higher dots in Prime or the ridiculousness of Forces 9.

>>55250676
What's so ridiculous about Forces 9?

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>>55250676
>>55250697

>>55250644
Well, I've yet to find any concrete rotes, but thus far the book suggests 30 successes at difficulty 15(!!) to reverse the Curse of Caine.

>>55250736
Beat you to it, mate.

See above.

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>>55250697
Universal control

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I'm starting to think DBZ fans wrote out the rules for Ascension Archmages.

At least Dave and Matt made their Awakening counterparts into coherent storytelling devices.

>>55250746
I've found it in the Red Sign now, it's slightly different. Red Sign suggests Life 5, Matter 2, Prime 2, Spirit 2, and also suggests that it may be impossible unless the Mage also possesses the 10th sphere, though there's a tome and ritual in the same book that, if you can avoid going insane in the process of reading it, can give you the ability cast a single rote ONCE, as if you had 6 Arete and 6 in the Spheres necessary.

So, by The Red Sign, if you manage to read and comprehend the Yellow Sign without obliterating your Sanity, then read The Red Sign, you could theoretically cure Vampirism at Arete 3 and Mind 1.

>>55250807
It's not like an Awakening Archmage couldn't do the same.
Arguably even more powerful at the higher echelons of play.

Popping into the Supernal and fiddling with the symbol of gravity is going to have the same result.

Imperial Mysteries is still 100x times better than Masters of the Art.

>>55250815
so file that under theory crafting that will never happen in an actual game?

>>55250815
Why the fuck would they write out two completely different methods of curing vampirism.

>>55250676
>>55250815
>"this book says prime 6"
>"but this book says prime 2"
??????????

>>55250834
Because White Wolf writers were fucking retarded and never bothered to follow suit with previously written supplements?

>>55250815
Why the fuck would it need five fucking dots of Life. It should be Matter.

Dear god, White Wolf.

>>55250870
>WW
>Consistency

>>55250870
Though it should also be noted, the Red Sign rotes are super-special-impossible-mind-breaking-bullshit from ancient tomes of Plot Device, as opposed to an Archmage just waltzing in and Archmaging the problem away.

>>55248191
Yeah that's not true. You also aren't allowed to tell Sleepers about magic, share any of the Mysteries with them, or anything like that.

>>55250807
Yeah, like a lot of things in Ascension, they're pretty nonsensical. Much, much better in Awakening.

>>55246908
EYES OF AIN SOPH
REALITY MAKERS

REHASHED ANON, PLS

Here's another side comment about things I saw either in this thread or one earlier:

>I don't need Ressources when I have Matter high enough and can just make Gold lel

If your GM lets you get away with this, he's an idiot. It's like letting you go: "Oh hey I can take 15 mental flaws because with mind, I can just mage them away in the first session".

Ressources is an abstract game mechanic and it's up to you as a player, if you choose Ressources 0, why your character is piss poor DESPITE being able to make gold. Maybe you just don't care for it? Maybe it runs through your fingers for stupid shit? Maybe you have a family you left to support? Doesn't matter. If you want to game the WOD, it's super easy, cause it's not a "good" system in the sense that it's neatly geared so players can't get away with being shit.

>>55251267
There's almost always ways to spin these into not being outright advantages for the player. If they magic away their mental flaws, that's actually a huge weakness that any Mage with Prime and a sufficient dicepool could exploit. They would also have to keep it in their Pattern, holding up a spell slot, or safely release it by burning a Willpower dot. As for gold, it really wouldn't be that useful in lieu of Resources. Instead I would rule it as being Cash. If they wanted to represent their character doing this regularly, they would have to buy Resources, no?

>>55251267
I don't know about CofD, but making yourself infinite cash/gold/etc. in cWoD is a great way to get Hardsuits crashing through your ceiling the moment a Syndicate operative notices.

I'd rule it as a regular streetwise or subterfuge check and cap it at 2 dots of ersatz resources a month. You know, to stop people asking questions and to represent the amount you can comfortably sell. Further up requires xp to build a gold company - resource dots.

What would a Thyrsus Legacy with Prime as its Arcanum look like?

>>55246908
Chrysalides

The spell description for Transubstantiation says that you get an equipment bonus or Resource dots (for one purchase) equal to Potency. So yeah, it isn't a big deal unless they want to keep doing it over and over again for some reason.

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>>55249117
The only thing worse than being banned on rpg.net is not being banned on rpg.net.

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>>55251685

Will the magefags and vampfags ever put aside their differences and call for a truce?

>>55251812
It'd take another common enemy of the same grade as Beasts.

>>55246908
This really is good work.

>>55252028
It is the great work; the Magnum Opus

>>55252089

>>55251267
Resources 0 is not that your piss poor, its just you dont have spare cash to spend.

You could live in a mansion and still have resources 0.