Yo /tg/. Whaday'all think about psionics?

Whatever they want me to.

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I like it especially in 4e where it changed some of the ways the game was played without needing new whole books to explain it or it stinky being magic-lite.

>>55246586

For some reason, a large part of /tg/ has a massive hateboner for psionics, at least in Pathfinder, even though psionics are perfectly fine.

>>55246625
somebody post the screencap

>>55246586
2ed psions rocked.
3.5 psions were turned into sorcerer's minus charisma
4e & 5ed psions... I've no clue since only epic faggots play those editions.

>>55246586

I've always felt like it never fit the fantasy genre except as used by bizarre otherworldly creatures. It has to try too hard to make itself different, and learning a second set of powers overtop magic is a pain. One system for character supernatural mojo is enough.

Liked the type of powers in 2e, but hated the massive tracking associated

Found that on 3e and 4e that the mechanics and powers were to samey to justify them being different from magic.

>>55246586
Mind crushing is fun.

>>55246586
They're what happens after game writers realize that they gave every other enemy magic resistance and refuse to make martial strong enough to kill anything.

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>>55246586
In 5e, they're the "create an anime character" class and the people who play them are 9/10 times massive faggots who just wana have magic without it actually being magic.

What is the point of having magic and not calling it magic in the same setting as actual fucking magic

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>>55247486
It allows them to use their "magic" in anti-magic zones, as well as be immune to the effects of dispel magic, counterspell, and spell resistance (as their abilities are explicitly not spells). It's also worth noting their abilities don't have verbal, somatic, or material components, so good luck actually disabling them in any way likes you can do with other casters.

Fuck psionics, they don't belong in fantasy settings to begin with, but their mechanical execution in 5e is just goddamn horredous.

>>55247486
2ed made it unique and very different than magic.
3.5 fagged it up.

>>55247593
It should be a (Su) ability, so shouldn't work in null-magic zones anyway...

>>55247768
>5e
>(Su)

Pls, Pathfinder General is over that way, thanks.

>>55247801
The mystic still loses their psionics in anti-magic areas in 5e too.

>>55247595
>made it unique and very different

Most of the powers were just spells that failed occasionally.

>>55247593
In 5e powers are treated the same as spells, they can be countered and nullified and dispelled.

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It's "unique and different" in 5e... and by that I mean you have to learn an entirely new set of mechanics that operates differently than every other spellcasting class in the game to fucking play with the psio-err, "mystic".

The sad thing is, I actually like their system better and wish all casters followed it, rather than using Vancian casting, but that's besides the point because it's still an entirely new set of mechanics to learn that the rest of the game wasn't built around.

>>55247887
God forbid you should have to read to play this game.

>>55247868
I'm gonna need a citation that, friend.

Let me know how I can counter-spell a Fighter's Action Surge, please.

>>55247897
Reading is fine, making a snowflake class who's mechanics were stapled on top of the base game and the base game wasn't original designed to work with is not.

>>55246586
I liked it in AD&D 2E even though it was broken as fuck

Would like to try 1E sometime just for the psionics.

>>55247846
Most were not duplicatable from magic, and few psionic abilities duplicated magic spells.

Each one stayed in their own lane pretty well.

>>55247868
No... just no. This isn't true at all. There are completely mundane abilities that count as "powers". Holy fuck you're retarded. Stop posting.

>>55247899
Psionic powers you sperg, and in the mystic class for 5e:
>Psionic disciplines are magical
and function similarly to spells.

>>55247920
1ed had wild talents, but I never tried a pure psionic class. I don't recall anything about them.
Fuck I'm old.

>>55247941
They're magical, but they're still explicitely not spells, so counterspell and dispel magic still don't work. Neither does spell resistance of any kind.

You've only proven they don't work in an anti-magic zone... maybe.

>>55247910
Yeah, because god forbid they should ever want to do anything different with the game's mechanics. That might make it too difficult for you to play by requiring you to read.

>>55247920
>I liked it in AD&D 2E even though it was broken as fuck
Most everything in 2ed was superior.

>>55247929
Yeah, the disintegrate power sure was different from the disintegrate spell.

>>55247899
Cast fist.

>>55247970
Only by virtue of 3rd being a garbage fire.

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>>55247960
Would you like to try with an actual argument this time, or are you going to keep ignoring every counterpoint and just continue to screech "YOU HATE READING, I WIN TEH INTERNETS! LOL!"

Again, reading is not the issue here.The issues are:
1. Simplicity. Psionics adds an entirely new, parallel set of magic to the system that all of 5e has used to date. Any players or DM that wants to use psionics has to learn an entirely new set of "spells", "casting" rules, and interactions with existing rules.

2. The new interactions conflict with (nerf) the existing balance/usefulness of several parts of the game including spells (Counterspell), at least one feat (Mage Slayer), and every rule or feature that triggers or interacts with "spells" (since Psionics is explicitly not spellcasting). This steps on the toes of those races, abilities, classes, and feats that interact with magic or the existing spellcasting system.

3. Expanding on 2, lack of interactivity. 5e combat (and even social encounters to a degree) are inherently about altering your behavior as a reaction to the the environment, the NPCs, and your party. Before Psionics, when a magic user tried to alter a social or combat situation with magic, everybody present had a chance to see it and could act accordingly. The only exception to this rule was a sorcerer investing build resources and class resource to Subtly cast a spell (and even in that case they still have to be touching a focus). Psionics gets to completely bypass this pillar of the game for free- no investment required. Every discipline or talent a Mystic uses gives no indication it is about to occur, no way to prevent it from being "cast", and little indication of who or what caused it. This near-immunity moves the game away from interactivity to a space where Mystics simply get to do magic while others must always try to cast.

>>55247974
Most...not all.

Which wizard spell saw sound? And which absorbed disease?

>>55247993
You were honestly butthurt enough to write out that wall of text that I didn't read? Impressive. You're literally just whining that they did something different with the mechanics, get over it.

>>55247992
I can't really argue that much.

I like to steal their abilities and give them to martial classes. I think a lot of them can be flavored very nicely as a martial ability.

>>55248010
Actually it's a pasta from when Mystics were first released. Still waiting for an actual argument from the shitposting corner though. Please, feel free to actually debate a little instead of screeching like an autistic chimpanzee and flinging your feces everywhere like most Mystic fanboys do.

>>55248030
You're taking this a lot more seriously than I am. I don't take part in the 5e generals, and have only a passing familiarity with the game. What argument is needed? You're complaining that they did something different with the mechanics, which is fucking stupid.

>calling others shitposters while posting copypasta
>Iamthecancer.jpg

>>55248030
Mystics=5e name for psions?

>>55247993
This. Psionics were a mistake.

The sad part is, this doesn't even include the abilities that are flatout broken even in their own vacuum, like infinite darkness (no duration listed), the claw attack with no actions cost listed, charms that don't make a target aware even if they fail, and several other powers that just don't work RAW.

>>55248056
To be fair, the copypasta still has valid points, which would make for a much more interesting conversation than anything in this thread so far.

>>55248057
Yes.

>>55248091
>Yes.
I hate that name. And just when I thought I had exhausted all my hate for 5e.

>>55248091
As far as I can tell the only valid points are it not interacting with counterspell and the like.

The central whine (they're doing something different with the mechanics) is not just stupid, it's actively detrimental to the development of the game. During 3rd edition, some of the best things to come out of it came from them ignoring the previous frameworks and creating something some new entirely, this is how we got the binder, Tome of Battle, and the psionics rules.

>>55248065
>Psionics were a mistake.
Speaking of 2ed only, psions were a good fit.
Unique-ish enough to warrant their own class for sure. We had no trouble blending them in.

>>55248137
We also got fucked up weapon profs, fucked up item creation, and insane multiclass rules.

>>55248159
>makes an actual criticism of the pasta
>still on the "didn't read lol" joke

God sally, grow up.

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>>55247956
There is specific rules text about this.

>>55248171
Those were all in the core book, so don't really apply. They were the basic framework, not a rejection of the basic framework.

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>>55247910

>people actually want 5e to return to 4e's "Everyone is the same class but with different powers" system

Dumbfounding.

>>55248208
No one played 4ed.

Thus no one wants to return to it. Can'

>>55246586
Great in sci-fi games, stupid and gonzo in high fantasy games.

>>55247956
Dispel Magic
>Choose any creature, object, or magical effect within range.

Counterspell is the only interaction in debate, because magical effects are treated like spells in 5e - it either is magic or isn't, unlike 3.pf.

>>55248294
As long as it's on the main spell list for any other class it's dispellable according to the Mystic class text posted here >>55248193

Wu Jen spells are subject to dispel and counterspell, for example, even though you use psychic power to cast them.

>>55248327
Well it's a little more complicated because that is for PC interaction with NPCs (and another reason this magical interaction question is really stupid disincentive it's between a DM and player except for exceedingly rare circumstances), but the devs did say counterspell should work on psionics in 5e. However, they also said psionics are completely covert unlike spells by design - which makes it hard to justify using counterspell at all without detect magic or some other means of detection.

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I started playing with 3.5e and I never understood the draw of psionics.

All of the edge lords I to played with with loved the classes, though, for whatever it's worth...

>>55248430
It's all the character optimization of a Wizard without any of the bookkeeping.

>>55246586
It got some dnd players slightly more used to the idea of having mana points instead of spell slots.

Partly nudged by psionics, DnD can inch closer to killing off the pseudo-vancian sacred cow and elevating the franchise in a way that makes it less painful to play and more accessible to modern gamers.

>>55248452
It's really not. Strictly speaking the psionic classes were inferior to the base casters.

I don't like non-monster player psionics on a thematic level. They might be fine for a setting like Eberron, but for Forgotten Realms or Mystara they just don't jive with my sensibilities.

>>55248610
Why not? They're literally just magic.

>>55246642
I've always thought that psionics were more of a sci-fi thing than a fantasy thing.

>>55248657
Psionics is NOT magic.

Magic is for losers.

Psionics is for the cool kids.

>>55248778
Psionics is for losers with weird eyebrows.

>>55248775
You do know that D&D at least borrowed from a genre that borrowed extensively from sci-fi, right?

I've allowed psionics in my game for nearly 20 years now, and there isn't a problem with psionics. There's a problem with psionic players having special snowflake syndrome.

To give an example, a player a while back asked to play a wilder (this was during the 3.5 days). She manifested a power to get a quest giver on fire. Said quest giver was a decently leveled psychic warrior who was not only immune to fire but had max ranks in Psicraft and figured out real quick. Said player threw a bloody fit, and did NOT accept that a 14th level psychic warrior could identify that a 15th level wilder set him on fire. She was also angry that after a reaction (the NPC's first impulse was to draw a blade and go on the defense), the NPC laughed it off as a prank and ignored that she was in fire (again, immune to fire).

>>55248231
>scifi
>magic
Pick one. If it includes magic(regardless of what you want to call it), it's not scifi.

>>55246586
I kind of like them in the context of 3.x. Half the problems with the system come from the vancian casting, anyway. Plus, there's less bookkeeping.

>>55247240
>I've always felt like it never fit the fantasy genre
You may be suffering from d&d induced retardation then, psychic shit originated in fantasy and myth with mystics and mediums long before sci-fi adopted it as a more "realistic" form of magic.
It has definitely fallen out of style and popularity though, the only mainstream modern examples I can think of are hellboy and various ghost/possession movies.

>>55247283
I somewhat agree but there are already fairly arbitrary sub-categories of magical powers with divine/arcane magic and a bunch of other shit.

>>55248452
That was supposed to be the idea and what people with only second-hand knowledge believe to be the case. Psions were supposed to be a wizard equivalent and wilder a sorcerer but the practical effect was that the psion was an inferior sorcerer and wilders even worse with a flawed gimmick.

>>55248775
Sci-fi basically co-opted it just as a more "realistic" magic.

>>55248775
D&D has always mixed scifi and fantasy elements.

Just about every DMG has had rules for laser weapons, each MM includes green brain-eating space aliens, and there's almost always some anachronistic tech lying around for funsies.

>>55246586
psionics sucks, but that's mostly because my group of friends sticks to D&D mostly and there have been 0 satisfactory explanations in D&D as to how psionics is different from sorcery wizardry. The fact that they can be quite munchkin-friendly and have a lot of corner cases doesn't incentivize their inclusion, either.

>>55247593
Your retarded. Psiinics has always been nullified in AMFs you dumbass. The only people who dislike psionucs are illiterate idiot s such as yourself.

>>55253262
There is. Psinics draw from internal powers if the mind and body. While Arcane magic draws from the planes/weave/leylines.

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>>55253262
>psionics sucks, but that's mostly because my group of friends sticks to D&D mostly and there have been 0 satisfactory explanations in D&D as to how psionics is different from sorcery wizardry.

The sorcerer muscled in on the psion's turf, not the other way around. Psionics was introduced in 1976, the sorcerer was introduced in 2000. Psionics was about inner power and force of will, while wizards and clerics got their power from external, otherwordly forces. Then 3e introduced the sorcerer and made the psion redundant.

It's really the sorcerer that should be ditched. Psionics has its own feel and is important to several D&D settings, the sorcerer always feels like a knock-off wizard.

>>55253262
>munckin friendly
Psionics have been weaker than default arcane/divine magic for decades, man.

>>55246586
Psionics are, to me, horribly executed in most systems, and are often portrayed in a sort of comical superhero fashion. I prefer the more restricted, controlled psionics that can be seen in universes like Babylon 5 (Psi-Ops) and such.

>>55247993
>1. Simplicity. Psionics adds an entirely new, parallel set of magic to the system
See
>>55248010
>You're literally just whining that they did something different with the mechanics, get over it.
"Psionic isn't magic" is not a bug, it is a feature.
Attempting this whole point drags down your argument.

>2. The new interactions conflict with the existing balance/usefulness of several parts of the game
I can see this being a serious issue.

>3. Mystics simply get to do magic while others must always try to cast.
If true, I can see this being an issue.
Also, what about invisibility or other methods of concealing oneself?

When I adjusted my magic system to implement psionics, I ended up reducing the power slightly and the range significantly.
Primarily because it is an uncommon ability with few people having any defenses against it.
Psionics aren't nerfed, I don't think, but neither are they crushing others.
They are often sneaky, unseen casters though.

>>55246586
I like them I played a battlemind and psion in 4ed and I'm playing a awaken mystic now to test the take 3 pdf.

>>55246586
Don't like them.

Don't put sci-fi magic cheapout in my fantasy.

>>55253262
It's internal magic of the mind while ki is internal body magic.

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I like psionics and psychic magic, and use them quite extensively in my worldbuilding. One the things I really liked about 4e,among many things, was turning the monk into a psionic class. Ki being a weird standalone feature for a single class, with no further ties to the rest of the mechanics or fluff never sat right with me. Ki being a bodily expression of psionics however makes perfect sense. The body's inborn power allowing them to perform supernatural internal powers is basically the same as the psions inborn power allowing them to supernaturally alter external reality.

Its also fun to play around with psionics being used by races you wouldn't think would have them. Like gnolls. Did you know that the spotted hyena is reputed to have a third eye in its head that allows divinatory powers, at least according to myth? And that common imagery about third eyes is tied to psychic powers? Now imagine gnolls with psychic halos telekinetically (pyrokinesis also works) attacking farms and towns on raids. Or gnolls that can see your thoughts and can track you across the plains by sniffing out your mind.

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>>55254017
>Now imagine gnolls with psychic halos telekinetically (pyrokinesis also works) attacking farms and towns on raids. Or gnolls that can see your thoughts and can track you across the plains by sniffing out your mind.

>>55253523
No you're wrong because I said so.

>>55253850
Which is a hair-splitting cop-out, hence my derision. Wizards already have arguably the most powerful/competent brains in D&D, and somehow we're lead to believe that all of them just happened to miss the innate power that psions have. So either wizards have been using psionic energy all along and psions are not needed, or the very existence of psions punches massive holes in the entire game.

Mechanically, we already have innate casters in both warlock and sorcerer form, so they're redundant on that front as well. Actually, you could just make a psion a sorcerer sublcass in 5e with a curated spell list and nothing would be lost.

>>55254528
>Wizards already have arguably the most powerful/competent brains in D&D
2ed psions had power points based on wisdom/con/int combined.

Wizards had Intelligence, certainly. But lacked the other stats to represent the psions perfect blend of mind/body.

Also psions had to be lawful.

That sounds like a wizard? Not as martial as a monk, but similar in self discipline. Not as devote as a cleric, but similar in their devotional focus on their craft. Not as clever as a mage, but with the wisdom to back up their smarts.

Totally different.

>>55254528
Sorcerer's and Warlock's aren't Innate.

Sorcerer's still draw on external power, they just inherently know the rituals and shit wizards use to acess it.

Warlocks are explictly using borrowed power.

>>55254528
>Wizards already have arguably the most powerful/competent brains in D&D, and somehow we're lead to believe that all of them just happened to miss the innate power that psions have

Wizards also missed: clerical prayers drawing on the powers of the gods.

The innate power of the warlocks blast.

The bards knowledge.

The rogues ability to know where to strike for extra damage.

You have no issues with the wizards having "missed" those things? Why? Are wizards stupid or something? Or have you cherry picked you apple to Orange comparison.

>>55254528
>So either wizards have been using psionic energy all along and psions are not needed, or the very existence of psions punches massive holes in the entire game.
That's like saying "Barbarians have arms. Really strong arms! Why do we bother having monks."

They never fucking trained to use their minds like that. Wizards memorize formulae and shit to tap into arcane power and not exert that power themselves. If they did start training their minds like that they'd take a level in fucking Psion.

While we're on the subject on Wizards vs Psions. Every setting bar Dark Sun that contains both makes Psion's the uncommon one, but shouldn't it be the other way around?

I mean all you really need to start practicing Psionics is the appropriate amount of brain mass and the will to autistcally train yourself. Wizards need
>Books(which are expensive as shit, before getting into finding extra spell books and shit)
>Rare material regeants like fucking bat guano
>Ink
>Scrolls(more expenses)
Like it seems like only fairly advanced societies could produce Wizards, while it would be possible to find Psions from all walks of life? Am I being weird here?

>>55247993
>>55248065
Did 5e actually fuck it up and treat psionics entirely different again? Even 3.5 wasn't that dumb and had the "baseline" that psionics and regular magic interacts just fine.

>>55255265
It's because wizards are in core books and psionics in extra books, that's why psions are rarer. You can't expect your players to have 3 extra books, just to play the "regular stuff" in the setting

>>55254528
Psionics is just another form of magic, like Divine and arguably "nature" magic (although druid spells are often treated as divine too).
Plus that's a problem with class bloat anyway, because you need to print new stuff, you gonna end up with at least 3-5 different alterations of smart guy that casts spells

>>55248610
How can something be too weird for Mystara?

>>55255322
I understand the meta-reason why? I'm talking from a purely worldbuilding perspective.

It's not like books are even a fucking restriction now since you can probably find every fucking class in the game and print it out in like 5 minutes today.

>>55255364
>I'm talking from a purely worldbuilding perspective.
There's none, "worldbuilding" as often propagated here on /tg/ is rarely happens with commercial settings. They need mass appeal, cool hooks and stylish stuff that makes YOU, the player, want to come up with something that could happen there/a character that could be from there.
That's why you will more often find information on wizard colleges, druidic cults and the main churches/religions, because more people will probably drawn to it.

>>55255090
Cool. If you were paying attention for the last 3 editions that's no longer been the case. As it stands there's nothing significant separating psions from wizards in current era D&D. I'd like it very much if your scenario was still the current system, because at least then there'd be an argument for their inclusion.

>>55255124
Sorcerer power is explicitly their own, as a product of supernatural bloodline. They have a special quality, but they rely on no outside source to make use of it.

>>55255151
Wow, you might want to back off apples and oranges when you're clearly not even in the produce section. Every single option you mentioned doesn't make use of int (wis, cha, cha, dex), which is the mechanical reason psions don't fit. Thematically the wizard seeks to understand the laws of the universe and thus exploit them, and recognizes that clerics do the same thing with borrowed power from the gods. There's no reason to assume that someone seeking knowledge would randomly also be devoutly pious, which is the crux of my argument; in a world with psions there's clearly a logical gap when you assume that the people who use their brains to enact magic wouldn't discover their brains can enact magic.

>>55255170
How the fuck does one "train their mind", first of all. Is it just grunting a spoons for an hour? Because I seriously doubt the guys who memorize formulas that can alter time and space have "weak minds", especially when concentrating on spells has been part and parcel of their job description for a long time now, even in the heat of combat.

>>55255452
I mean who's to say you can't create the same draw with Psionics? Especially since no one really tries in the first place. I always felt like the whole "doesn't fit" issue is because settings don't try to make it fit in the first place. There's Dark Sun and that !India setting and that's it. At best you'll get one or two gods with the Psionic domain, a few aberrations, and maybe an NPC.

>>55255511
>How the fuck does one "train their mind", first of all. Is it just grunting a spoons for an hour?
Meditation. Atively training with their powers. Or yes, grunting at spoons for an our.
>Sorcerer power is explicitly their own, as a product of supernatural bloodline. They have a special quality, but they rely on no outside source to make use of it.
No they don't, except in 5e. They make use of the Weave like Wizards do. They just inherently know how. The whole "internal thing" is REALLY fucking recent, and is something 5e came up with.
>nothing to differentiate
There's plenty to differentiate, you're just being unwilling/stubborn to see it.

Show me where Psions in D&D summon Demons, cast Prestigidation, raise zombies, brew potions, keep toads as familiars, etc? There's more to them than "smart guy with supernatural power".

>>55255511
Because Wizards aren't using their brains directly. Their memorizing rituals and shit and tweaking the universe via gestures and words. Nothing is coming from them.

>>55255511
Wizard arcane magic works by the wizard basically running little arcane computer programs. In the morning they partial cast the spells they are going to use that day, storing the arcane constructs within their brain, and then finishing the casting at a later time, by inputting targeting data or whatever. They're hackers and script kiddies.

Psions work by rewriting reality with their brains. They reach out and simply will reality into a different shape. They are Neo.

I like psionics more for its innate/biological feeling, and how it makes for a more natural fit for odd and alien personalities. It's a kind of power that feels "always on", as opposed to the Wizard being a normal, human person who read a bunch of books until they could throw fireballs. Particularly, I love pulpy scifi, including modern takes like John Prophet, which have a very fun brain-mysticism to their psionic beasties. In addition, this innate, constant nature to psionics makes it that much worse (from an IC perspective) to lose your psionics, even temporarily; a Wizard has lost a set of useful tools, but a Psionic has lost a sense, a limb, a very personal and innate part of themselves

>>55255515
Sadly, it's kind of a circular reasoning. Psionics aren't core, which is definitely a starting point for many players. As such it isn't a big focus in many settings. Since it isn't a big part of many settings, it doesn't get to be in core.
Well, maybe 6e will have it in core, like Tieflings going from splat book material to the core line, but I don't think that's a given.

>>55255624
This.
I say it like this.
>There is a rock in a X's way and a crane next to it.
>The Wizard reads a manual on how to work the crane, and then uses it to move the rock
>The sorcerer just KNOWS how to work the crane and move the rock
>The Psion just pushes the rock out of the way themselves

>>55255511
I specifically said 2ed.

I agree with you that the 3rd Ed and on psions are done in a shit tier fashion.
And it's sad, because they were a great class, unique and fun.

>>55255511
>the people who use their brains to enact magic wouldn't discover their brains can enact magic.

Gestures and arcane words used to tap into the weave....

Vs

Using your willpower to manifest something.

Huge difference. Wizards use their intelligence to MEMORIZE the ritualistic gestures and arcane words needed to draw power from the weave.

Psions don't need finger wiggling and draconic words to make shit happen.

>>55255643
>Well, maybe 6e
Stop that.

There will be no 6ed. What will happen is they will realize their stupidity, and go back to 2ed.

>>55246642
In 2E, which some of us came up with, it was retardedly broken, so it was used by the worst power gamers and some of the most frustrating monsters in the manual.
Like there were an astonishing number of monsters that, even with substantial magical resistance, had no protection against psionics at all, effectively making it yet another caster class which punches way above its level.

>>55250545
>psychic shit originated in fantasy and myth with mystics and mediums
we called that magic when they did it. psionics is literally "making brain powers science-y" The term itself was coined as a combination of "psyche" and "electronics"

>>55255558
>Show me where Psions in D&D summon Demons, cast Prestigidation, raise zombies, brew potions, keep toads as familiars, etc? There's more to them than "smart guy with supernatural power".
In all fairness, that's not a great example.
Psion don't have a toad familiar, they use a crystal that mimics a familiar.
They don't brew potion...they craft psionic things.
They don't summon demons, but they create "constructs" and travel many planes much like a mage.

No prestidigitation, but they have other simple tricks.

>>55256806
>In 2E, which some of us came up with, it was retardedly broken, so it was used by the worst power gamers and some of the most frustrating monsters in the manual.
Our house rule was that clerical and arcane spells were considered normal... psions were looked at as some kind of demon or witch.
If found out, it could lead to issues.

This kept our power gaming desire in check.
It worked for us anyway.

>>55256576
You're delusional if you think 3.5 and 4e handled Psionics badly.

>>55257147
>4e
>Monks are now Psionics

Yeah I'd say they dropped the ball pretty fucking hard.

>>55257402
It actually makes perfect sense. Ki is very much psionic power. In anime, myth, and other media, ki/chakras/prana/whatever tends to manifest itself in very psionic/psychic ways. And the perfection of the mind works well in tandem with the perfection of the body.

Besides, Ki is a weird thing that is never really expanded upon in any of the fluff, never shows up in another core class, and just seems to exist as a supernatural enabler for monk powers. Tieing them into the power source of internal power, psionics, cements them much better thematically.

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>>55257531
>It actually makes perfect sense
>In anime

>>55257540
DBZ is basically a bunch of template stacked psychic warriors, psions, and monks all duking it out. You know this to be true.

>>55257531
I would say it makes more sense if psionics is a method of using ki, rather than ki being a type of psionics. In other words, I would have turned it around and made psions a ki-based class rather than making monks a psionic class, but I can see why they did what they did.

>>55257147
>Handled badly

They didn't "handle" psions as much as the buttfucked them all to hell.

They couldn't have done worse.

>>55246625
fpbp

>2e: psionics are different from magic, but broken as hell
>3e: Psionics are magic, but more balanced
>4e: Psionics are just a source of power, don't imply too much mechanically
>5e: Psionics aren't even officially printed

Which is best?

>>55246586
I like it if it makes sense in the setting, it usually doesn't

>>55262067
2ed clearly.

They weren't as broken as some say. They eventually sorta levelled out around 5th.

They did start strong. But were no more potentially game breaking than wizards or even lv 20 fighters.

>>55262067
>Which is best?
When would the answer ever not be 4e?

>>55246586
Respect, but dislike in my lowish-medium fantasy tolkien-ish games.
I also believe (personal and wrong opinion) that psionics and D&D/fantasy magic don't mix nicely, either have one or the other.

>>55262067
3.5 Psionics were the best mechanically.

I don't really see how 2e is that different aside from being mechanically busted/bullshit alignment restriction. Everything else is fluff.

>>55263046
what?
The difference is profound.
To name a few..
>Crystal familiar
>Power point structure
>Discipline limits
>Almost completely different powers
>Hit die
>Weapon and armor restrictions
>Regaining pp's
>Allingment restrictions

2ed didn't have knockoff sorcerers called psionic. 3.5 basically is basically just that.

>>55263378
That's a few of the differences. Not all.

The 2e and 3.5 psions barely resemble each other.

>>55262859
>>55263046
2e Wild Talents were utter bullshit. For an almost negligible chance of fucking over your mental stats, you had the chance to get free psychic powers with level scaling PSPs for no cost. Roll really well and you were basically a multiclass psion.

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>>55249955
(you)

>>55263378
>>Crystal familiar
You don't have to take Psicrystal Affinity if you don't want to. It's not mandoatory to take.
>Power point Structure
Where to Sorcerer's have power points
>Discipline Limits
Again, where do sorcerer's have this
>Competely different powers
Isn't this a point for Psions being different from sorcerers
>Knockoff Sorcerers
Except Psions were in the game longer than sorcerers. Sorcerer's and psions are nothing alike(for the millionth fucking time Sorcerer's draw from the fucking Weave like Wizards, they're power isn't internal).

Eh. In the setting I played in there were three types of magic, arcane, divine and psionic. They are recognised as the magic of the body, the soul and the mind, respectively.
There were great explanations for why a wizard uses his body to cast spells, and a psychic warrior his brains, but I'll have to search for it.
The explanations were pretty solid though, as far as we knew.

In any case, it was all magic, but different. Same same, but different. But still same.

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>>55247593
>good luck disabling psyonics

Intense smells sights and sounds work wonders. Just attack the senses faggoo

>>55247899

With two blue mana you retarded martial.

>>55247593
>It's also worth noting their abilities don't have verbal, somatic, or material components, so good luck actually disabling them
I mean this doesn't even come up 99.9% of the time outside of "muh bouding gagging and kidnapping all the player's shit" situations.

Also consider Psionics is usually a decent bit weaker than other magic types too.

My settings handle it like this. Wizards get captured and bound. Psions get outirght killed for resisting after the first warning.

And attacking them as they manifest a power/grappling disrupts their shit just fine.

>>55263514
>It's not mandoatory to take.
Irrelevant. We're talking about differences.
>Sorcerers weren't around...
No shit.
>For the millionth time

Are you arguing that the classes are different? Because that's the point. I pointed out difference.

Are you literally fucking retarded?

>>55255661
>the Wizard reads a manual on how to work the crane, then uses it to move the rock.
>the Cleric complains to the site foreman and gets someone to move the rock
>the martial just pushes the rock out of the way themselves

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They're basically wizards with a different name.

Personally, I love 'em!

>>55246586
Lone Wolf has psionic ranger/monks in your standard D&D fantasy world. Works well.

>>55265614
>the martial gets a pickaxe and reduces the rock into rubble
>the psion just removes the rock

>>55255661
>the wizard reads a manual on how to work the crane, but is pretty sure he could work any other construction vehicle if he consulted the manual for a moment as a refresher
>the sorcerer just KNOWS how to work a crane even better than the wizard, but he couldn't figure out how to work a backhoe or bulldozer if his life depended on it

>>55263476
But 40k is a fantasy setting in space.

>>55263514

The weave is only in forgotten realms, there are sorceress and wizards in other DND settings.

>>55263837

It's a bit weaker in 3.5.

Although when you get to Theoritcal optimization it gets weird (every thing gets wierd at that point).

In 3.5 there was a way (possibly multiple ways) for a psionic character to learn pretty much every power and every arcane or divine spell.

>>55265130
>Are you literally fucking retarded?
>here are all these differences
>THERE BASICALLY KNOCKOFF SORCERERS
Are you?

Also, how the fuck can a class be a knockoff of something that came along several years later.

>>55246625
underrated post

>>55268120
Sorcerers are a core class in 3.5.
Psions are not.

By remaking the psions from their 2.5 version, to the 3.5, they made a knock off sorcerer.

How is this confusing to you?

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>>55249955
I'm gonna fight you

>>55269593
Except they're incredibly different. They aren't really similar beyond d4 HD, 1./2 bab.

>>55246642

You mean D&D players in general have disliked psionics. It was only ever popular in Dark Sun- which basically made all you other magical options rare/non-existent.

>>55271003
In 3.5, they are very similar.

In 2ed, psions were unique.

The 3.5 psion is totally different than the unique 2ed psion.

Any way you look at it, the 3.5 psion is basically a refluffed sorcerer.

Familiar? Check.
Few "known" spells/powers? Check.
D4 hd? Check.
Weapon restrictions? Check.
"Intuitive " power/spell? Check.
Similar spell/powers? Check.
Skill pts per lv? Check.

Psions in 3.5 are fluffed up sorcerers. In 2ed, they were a unique class.

They fucked psions hard.

>>55255515
>There's Dark Sun and that !India setting and that's it. At best you'll get one or two gods with the Psionic domain, a few aberrations, and maybe an NPC.

And Eberron. It basically replaces magic in not!Asia.

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>>55257540

Oh, I'm sorry, would it be less anime for them to make a bunch of complex hand signs while spouting funny sounding words before they shoot their fireball, summon a magical beast, create an illusion of themselves, turn invisible, or fly around through the air?

>>55247121
>>55247283
>>55247595
AD&D 2e had some interesting rules when it came to maintaining powers and succeeding on power checks but 3.0 had some good ideas with variable DC with each discipline keyed to an ability, and power reserve. 3.5 just further sanitized it to work as equivalent of base casting classes but allowed augmenting instead of spells automatically enhancing with caster level.
>>55248430
>>55248452
>>55248517
>It's really not. Strictly speaking the psionic classes were inferior to the base casters.
Essentially what it boils down to. There are other issues as well such as the difference in points per day versus spells per day. When you convert from points you will have less spells per day than a wizard specialist, increasing slots is also more economical on base caster than psionic points.

When you use metapsionics you pay the cost but also expend focus, you can only apply one metapsionic feat once to a power, wasting a round. To overcome these limits you need to spend feats. The feat to increase power DC (similar to spell focus) also expends focus. Augmentation of powers is always a linear increase where a higher level power just does the same damage as an augmented lower level power. Since the powers didn't automatically increase with caster level the way spells did, each +2 point cost was like it occupied a slot higher. A 10d6 energy ball would be a 5th or 6th level slot vs a 10d6 fireball at 3rd slot.

So imagine a caster with the spell per day quantity limits of wizards and the spell quality limits of sorcerers, spell known quantity limits of sorcerer, with additional feat taxes, slower/harder to gain some than other classes. Then add versatility of spontaneously converting high level spell slots in to low level spell slots.

Now you have a 3.5 Psion.

The only reason to play one was because you wanted to be a new age psychic or Magneto.

>>55271092
Sorcerer casts about twice as much per day + better spells.

>>55273595
Wow, it's almost like psions were balanced down from game raping classes or something.

>>55273846
That's very true psionics were hailed as very balanced. What isn't true is to say that balance is a good feature, fun, or interesting. It's like saying you have the option to have two sandwiches with each half sliced through the middle, or two folded sandwiches. The net effect is that your choice didn't matter and was just an illusion of choice.

For comparisons they definitely operate lower than base casters, weaker even than RAW casters, but many people take memes over logic.

>>55273595
>AD&D 2e had some interesting rules when it came to maintaining powers and succeeding on power checks

Every usage had a check if I recall in 2ed.

I never tried the 3rd Ed...but I've read up on 3.5

And compared to 2ed psionic flavor, 3.5 just feel like a new type of sorcerer.

Go back to 2ed psions if you want unique and fun. Imvho

>>55274232
Yep you're right they had a check each time. Here's how I remember it going.

Each power had an associated ability score and a modifier. The modifier was subtracted from the ability score then the 1d20 was rolled. Lower than the modified ability score the power worked, a roll of 1 and the power always worked but to minimal effect, roll a 20 and the power fizzles/backfires/benefits enemy. Rolling exactly the power score boosted the effects.

The save was always a save vs spell so that didn't change. 3.0 took the general idea there and applied it to DC calculation instead. 3.5 removed that and made Wilder the risky Psionicist but it was broken and crippled, the designer tried to patch it later with 3rd party but not very well.

2e, 3.0, and 3.5 all had good ideas but the trend was to streamline and dumb them down to be just another caster. The 5th edition mystic is not that interesting, has nonsensical limits, but otherwise turns into a living immortal through passive class features.

Just started world building a new 4e campaign with my group. Group likes to play weird shit and i always call back to more traditional games.
Finally we decide to make a world were there is no Tech or multidimensional bullshit. And the gods matter again.

after we got everything almost done we get into characters and i remember one of my pet peeves of 4e is player handbook 3 and its psychic themes. Now 2 of 5 members pick fucking psychic. and now i'm annoyed. Just fucking role a Sorc or something. anything is better then borderline sci fi characters.

>>55275873
If you're playing 4e then every character is already a sci-fi super hero.

>>55271410
I'm unironically playing a ripoff Madara with a Magus in a PF game we're in right now. So far nobody realized that the hand seals I do come directly from Naruto same as the renamed spells, GM is even super excited that I "came up" with them. Also I use a bigass scroll instead of spellbook and GM loves it.

I'm starting to think they don't know what Naruto is.