/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>55225556
Fuck off you gay ass namefag booty bandit

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My favorite mage kill in demon was when I told this Obreimos master not to look up. Being the obsessive fuckers mages are he could not help but look up which promptly turned him into a pillar of salt. The absolute madman

For people that have played mixed games, how do you keep each splat relevant.

>>55225556
>What's the best way to defeat the Plain?
A speeding truck.

>>55225006
>Bloodlines even states that the seven thing is a lie

Yeah, but the other healers are still among the rarest bloodlines left in the world, due to how selective the Salubri are in choosing childer, the Tremere's hunts for them, and the fact that so few of them were left over from the purges.

Plus, the Watchers are, by default, not interested in Western Kindred politics, to the point where they foresaw the Healers and Warriors going near-extinct in the Dark Ages and they decided to keep focusing their efforts on curtailing the Kuei-Jin in the east.

>>55225080
>They truly missed agreat opportunity here, instead of embracing they should have figured out how to make gargoyles the old fashioned way to increase dwindling numbers.

You mean the Gargoyles themselves figuring out the ritual, yeah? Because IIRC, there was mention of a few Tremere (Camarilla and antitribu alike) who still create Gargoyles in secret using the ritual...

But if the Gargoyles were to only be capable of embracing through the ritual, they'd have to be much more limited in number, and probably not Camarilla.

See, it'd take much thaumaturgical skill and know-how to create new gargoyles (it's a 5-point ritual after all), and the creation of a gargoyle via a ritual requires two vampires to be tortured both physically, spiritually and mentally whilst being starved. The ritual is even described as being so dark and repugnant that the creation of a Gargoyle imposes an automatic decrease in a character's path, REGARDLESS of what path they follow. It's utterly abhorrent and alien even to the most alien and monstrous of vampiric moralities.

Since the Camarilla decided to pursue the path of humanity above all others (to better blend in), I imagine the Gargoyles would end up as a Sabbat or Independent bloodline, living in large groups for safety and hunting vampires of the Nosferatu, Gangrel or Tzimisce clans in the wild, keeping them staked until the rituals could begin.

>>55225825
>For people that have played mixed games, how do you keep each splat relevant.

I don't, really. Mixed games aren't really made to work, so you'd have to take shortcuts and start homebrewing a lot of stuff to keep it even and "balanced" for gaming purposes, which'll just piss people off (or just confuse them) in the long run, since you had to modify so many rules, even if you excluded mages (which any sane person would do in a crossover-game).

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Has anyone run a game using innocence? Any stories about it? It seems like one of the stranger books.

>>55225825
Don't allow mages, give more starting XP to the weaker splats.

>>55226203
What is the order of spats that would need help, and how much help would they need?

>>55225825
I know it's not what you asked, but my serious, sincere advice to you is to not run mixed games. At best, allow other splats as supporting NPCs or villains of the week.

>>55225825
Create a varied chronicle in which different challenges can be approached from different angles. Play up to the strengths of certain splats and particular characters in your chronicle. Don't be afraid to counter some folks to let others shine. Don't buy into whatever splat wankery. Simple really.

>>55226355
I just have a group of friends that all prefer different spats, so I wanted to accommodate them.

>>55225825
It's not that hard. All these monster mash hating fags are just to creatively bankrupt to succeed at cross splat story telling.

>>55226243
I'd assume Hunters should have more XP than Vampires which should have more XP than Werewolves. How much XP exactly and how Wraith, Changeling, Demon, Orpheus, Kindred of the East, and Mummy should work, I don't know.

>>55226441
You'd have to be pretty creative to manage to pull off an internally balanced, cohesive
and interesting campaign using different splats with different themes and power levels.

>>55226524
Yeah creativity is a sign of a great story teller and not some scrub whose campaigns were stolen from media

>>55226573
Right, it would take a great story teller. Unfortunately, requiring a great story teller doesn't necessarily mean that a crossover campaign will be great itself, you understand? That great story teller would have to be great to just make a crossover campaign meet regular standards, because crossover flies in the face of how these games are built.

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Alright, third time last time. Added a Nimbus, fixed some things and reallocated a bit. Not married to some of the merits.

How would one go about finding a game? Roll20 only turned up some shit about RWBY when looking in the WoD category.

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Is Protean any good in 2e?

>>55226983
Turn on mature content there are a lot more games then that.

>>55227088
Does it let you do Aggravated?

>>55221352
>>55221523
>Mages are paranoid by default
>Every morning I hang 500 attack/defense spells over my head just in case
>Greetings mortal I'm Archmagus McPowergame look at my 5 Dot Hallow that I exclusively use to combat buff myself every morning JUST IN CASE
Yeah okay. Enjoy your game I guess.

>>55221860
We've started out opening a pseudo-Cabal in Philadelphia. My character is there because he divinated a catastrophic magical event in the future of Philly with the use of a censored artifact, and now he's trying to do some Fate-gardening so it doesn't come to pass. But Fate is so fickle that his attempts to prevent the event may very well be what enables it.

The second player is a Mastigos member of the Veil who is a native of Philly. I am suspecting he runs/supports part of the Labyrinth there but my character doesn't really know what the Labyrinth is. Unsurprisingly, he's been playing his hand close to his chest til now. He owns a auction house where we have cover jobs.

The third character is a Obrimos member of the Mysterium who is following a deranged scavenger hunt for Atlantis to the point where it has estranged him even from his former friends at the order and cost him most of his status. As far as I hear, the theory is about platonic concepts of the mythical city on the hill, and how Atlantis can pretty much descend on cities like Carcosa. His search led him to Philly.

Right now we're bumping heads with the local Seers. In our campaign the relation between the Seers is pretty much a cold war, but it can get hot pretty quickly. The last 24 hours were a lot of skirmishes, near-skirmishes, and frantically trying to ascertain what the Seers were planning to do with a huge ritual that gave the whole city a half hour of black out among other things. Apart from that we're working on an auction for Philly's creatures (thoroughly screened artifacts of course), and each following our own line of inquiry.

>>55227115
Ah, okay. I thought that you had to click that on to show only mature games.

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>>55227115
>games are either sabbat, crossover, weird homebrews, voice only, or otherwise not a regular text Awakening 2e game
Guess I'll just put this character in my pocket for the next decade or so.

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>>55227122
Under certain circumstances. How big is the distinction? It seemed to only be important in how players deal with it after the battle.

>>55226983
This maybe gaming the system a little bit but I recommend a Praxis that would be something that would make sense for your character to spam cast.

Fishing for exceptional successes will be an important source of willpower in the early game.

"Incognito presence" & "red light green light" aren't great Rotes because there's not many reach effects for you to take advantage off.

Also you may want to take your Rotes in common and inferior arcana to save yourself some mana.

Pick up some simple mundane armor when you can as well it'll stack w/ the mage armor.

>>55225825
Plat with non-shit players who don't min-max and don't care about perfect balance.

Worked for me. Ran a cross-splat game for years. Even included a mage. Mage didn't overshadow the group at all, and they weren't deliberately holding back either.

Only thing resembling a house rule I even had to do was removing arcane beats. A cross-splat game would give so many arcane beats it's not even funny.

This was 1e though.

Oh, and make sure your players learn their own splat's mechanics. If you have to babysit mechanics for everyone in the group, it gets not-fun fast.

>>55226983
>gnosis one
>>55227303
Your retarded green text strawman doesn't make the fact that mages are paranoid and cautious any less true.

>>55227696
Some splats like werewolves and demons can pretty much ignore all non aggravated damage.

>>55226983
You also need a Nimbus TILT

>>55227715
Mages are arguably the most paranoid of the Templates.

I, for one, would not want to hang around other Mages other than Cabal mates or close acquaintances.

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>>55227730
Cool. What about the rest of Protean? How does it all stack up with, say, Vigor, or even Fortitude?

>>55227710
>This maybe gaming the system a little bit but I recommend a Praxis that would be something that would make sense for your character to spam cast.
That actually is why I chose it. I fully intend for him to carry on as a mundane criminal until he gets more traction as a Mage, and omni-directional awareness seems like a useful spell to have cast while breaking into places. But I'm not married to it.

>"Incognito presence" & "red light green light" aren't great Rotes because there's not many reach effects for you to take advantage off.
I think it's the best I could do for the Arcana and Skills I chose. Plus, you need Reach to Instant cast and it means I can move the duration to Advanced and keep them active for a whole scene as a matter of course without having to take penalties to up Duration by turns or risk Paradox. I also am not going to use Time enough to put all of my beginning Rotes into it, and the only other Arcanum it would make sense for him to want initially is Matter, which I can't take at character creation because Mastigos.

>>55227736
Yeah, I intend to expand on that with the ST.

>>55227836
Well you can turn into a sapient mist and exsanguniate your victims with impunity while also being nigh invincible

>>55227303
Campaign sounds neat.

>>55227715

There's a difference between "paranoid and cautious" and "always having and executing the right countermeasures." Hubris can be a hell of a drug.

Mages are forces to be reckoned with no matter what the build, but their greatest flaw that they're still very much human, with all that entails.

>>55227529
Could always run one yourself.

>>55228422
>their greatest flaw that they're still very much human, with all that entails

The same could be said of the other splats.

>>55228541
In terms of mentality, maybe. Vampires and Werewolves can be as reckless and retarded as any human.

>>55228505
I wouldn't make a good ST, and it doesn't really appeal to me either.

>>55228541
It literally can't, except for Hunter.

>>55229252
Maybe Deviant.

>>55229252
Most of the splats were originally human. Are you telling me they somehow think differently?

>>55229336
They're talking physically, numb nuts.

>>55229336
Werewolves were never human, guy. Moreover, most of the others are not human anymore, so you literally can't say "they're still very much human" and be correct. Let alone that it's their greatest flaw.

>>55229438
Correction. Werewolves are half human half spirit. Anon also said nothing about them being human, only formerly.

>>55229503
>Werewolves are half human half spirit
Which is why it takes both Spirit AND Life to affect them. :^)

>>55229563
Debateable

>>55229503
>Anon also said nothing about them being human, only formerly.


>>their greatest flaw is that they're still very much human, with all that entails
>The same could be said of the other splats

>>55229610
Yeah. They're not human *anymore* but function mentally like any other homo sapiens.

>>55229646
Impressive reading comprehension.

Thoughts appreciated on a Beast character I wrote for shits and giggles:

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/beast-the-primordial-aa/541856-beast-character-idea-thread?p=1137167#post1137167

So, the new Monday Meeting Notes are up, including some hype for Fallen Worlds.

http://theonyxpath.com/the-labor-party-monday-meeting-notes/

First, Tome of the Pentacle is still not in first drafts. Even if Signs of Sorcery is released in the not too distant future, we'll still have to wait years for TofP, with Fallen World yet farther away. I appreciate that OPP doesn't want to fall prey to the "release treadmill," but some supplement regularity would be nice.

The Fallen Worlds preview was also odd. There was disappointingly no mention of the Astral or the Hedge.

"Fallen Worlds: Fallen Worlds is about all the Mysteries that lead mages out of the material realm into the other planes within the Fallen World and beyond. Fallen Worlds would expand on the short descriptions of the Shadow, Underworld, and Depths, along with compressed rules for their inhabitants that are in M2nd with a chapter fully detailing mages in the Shadow, the Underworld, and stranger places that defy classification. Plus expanded rules for the inhabitants of these weird places, as antagonists and allies, and we’ll address some of the crossover questions that pop up from time to time regarding mages and the otherworlds described in other gamelines."

>>55230006
I assume DaveB is waiting to see what the hedge ends up like before nailing it down for fallen words, he has plenty of time since its not out for years.

>>55230203
>DaveB is waiting to see what the hedge ends up like before nailing it down for fallen words

True, but I was more surprised there was no mention of the Astral, mages own playground (partially shared by beasts). You would think the Astral would be emphasized.

>>55229682
Hmmm?

>>55230539
It's 4chan's way of saying "no u"

>>55230006
>we’ll address some of the crossover questions that pop up from time to time regarding mages and the otherworlds described in other gamelines.
Oh boy. Is this book going to be a salt mine?

>>55226983
>Gnosis 1
eww

>>55230951
Mages are human
Hunters are Human
Deviants are probably human
Prometheans want to be come human

Only two splats never started off as human.

>>55230926
>>55230006
>we’ll address some of the crossover questions that pop up from time to time regarding mages and the otherworlds described in other gamelines.

Fallen Worlds Supremacy!

If Contagion Chronicles isn't released before Fallen Worlds, it's gonna get ugly on /wpdg/.

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>>55229438
>Werewolves were never human, guy. Moreover, most of the others are not human anymore
oi
were human
they aren't anymore, none of them

Beast took werewolf's origin scheme.

Mage: enlightened human
Vampires: formerly human
Werewolves: humanoid
Changelings: formerly human
Sin-Eaters: possessed human
Mummies: formerly human
Demons: not human
Prometheans: creeping into humanity
Beasts: not human
Hunters: human

Did I get this right?

>>55230962
Believe it or not, I have a reason for that. The character is supposed to have a kind of transitory arc, where he goes from being more in line with his Sleeper identity to more in line with his Awakened one. I want him to start at the bottom with Gnosis 1, and as the book says, each increase with Gnosis comes with a shift in world view. So those will be the marks along the road to being more entrenched in his Supernal self.

>>55231078
>Hunters: human
Some are cyborgs and transhumans and demonoids.
You might say vampires are slowly leaking humanity.

>>55231078
There's an interesting contrast between Mages and Prometheans.

The former are essentially evolved humans
The latter are trying to evolve -into- humans

The lore of both lines also has some really interesting implications of Souls, the Supernal and the Principle.
They're both on the extremes of power levels as well, with Mage being at the top, and Promethean being near the bottom.

Crossover isn't even an issue with the two, if done properly.

>>55231107
wanting to rock up to a game with a premade char before knowing what the game is about is stupid.

Go find a game first, then make a char that fits that game.

>>55231157
>They're both on the extremes of power levels as well, with Mage being at the top, and Promethean being near the bottom.
Prometheans are stupid powerful.
That's what not being balanced with other games lookss like. Mage is specifically balanced against others.

>>55231182
>Prometheans are stupid powerful
>Mage is specifically balanced against others

Enough with the blatant bait.

>>55231167
Thanks for the advice.

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If an Ordo Dracul vampire has two dots in the Coil of the Ascendant, does he just never need to sleep? You wouldn't even be spending more vitae than normal, because the one point every 24 hours for the blush of life replaces the one point every night to rise.

I'm looking forward to SoS's grimoire section. Rules for absorbing the soulstones of dead mages to act as Oneiros Goetia Mentors and flash drive holocron grimoires? Oh god yes.

>>55231236
I'm more interested in Prime being elaborated on. It's truly the most esoteric of the Arcana and confuses the shit out of me.

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>>55231233
Pretty much. Daysleep vitae is only when you wake, according to the book.

>>55231233
Doesn't need to sleep.

Might want to sometimes, though.

Being awake all the time is boring.

>>55231254
>I'm more interested in Prime being elaborated on

Don't get your hopes up. Except for a few minor new spells, nothing in the outline or Dave's comments indicate we'll get any more of an expansion or explanation for Prime.

>>55231254
What don't you get?

>>55231379
>What don't you get?

I'm a different Anon, but I would like some guidance on whether and how Prime deals with non-Supernal supernatural magic /effects.

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>looks at Prime Mage Armor
>looks at Prime Shielding

Is it exclusively Supernal magic?
Or is it also magic in-general?

>>55231410
>>55231414
Unfortunately this is something of a murky area, and cases can be made for both sides.

>>55231410
>>55231414
>>55231428

Issues like Prime are probably more readily addressed in an FAQ than in Signs of Sorcery.

>TFW Dave will never release the Mage FAQ.

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>>55231443
>TFW Dave will never release the Mage FAQ

>>55231254
You know it's odd that prime is the only subtle arcana that doesn't have a realm associated with it.

Mind has the astral, Death has the underworld, Spirit has the shadow, Fate has the hedge.

>>55231497

...really Anon? Prime is the Supernal.

>>55231497
Prime represents truth, symbols, mana, magic and, ahem, The Supernal.

>>55231505
But the supernal is the supernal. It's beyond the abyss. The others exist within the tellurian and can be visited.

>>55231532
Eh, the Supernal isn't a 'place', but is referred to as a 'realm' nonetheless.

>>55231497
I understand what you mean.

Am I allowed the Magepost

>>55231968
Yes, but do it quietly.

>>55231997
>Yes, but do it quietly.

>quietly whispers<
>Mage Supremacy

>>55225825
focus more on character, shorter sessions and most importantly of all;

Just agree with the mage when they say "I killed myself, it wasn't him!" When they get their neck broken by a mix of paradox and homeless, one legged Vietnam veteran.

>>55231192
A promethean can fucking one shot an entire town with titanic blow dumbass magefaggot.

Feedback requested on these Attainments for a Time Lord Legacy:

https://pastebin.com/QMLSV8fH

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>>55233083

>>55233083
citation needed

>>55233116
Before you even start working on the Attainments, comprehensively define the point and purpose of the Legacy, their Oblations, their Yantras, and how their Primary Arcanum (Life) folds into their Acanthus Path's comprehension of the Supernal.

It'll really help when deciding on their Attainments.

>>55233495
aint that but they can anti-magic an area, keep a mage from using any non-major arcana spells (and paying off paradox) and say hi i'm a mage too and make the mages believe him

Success: The Promethean wards an area of 30 square feet. Within
that area, hostile supernatural powers are penalized by the activation
successes. In addition, the Mystic and any allies gain a similar bonus
to detect illusions or invisible creatures within the area. If the
character does nothing on subsequent turns but channel Pyros, she
may expand the warded area by 10 square feet per point of Pyros.
This power ordinarily lasts for a scene, but the player may spend
a Willpower point to extend that duration to an entire day.
Exceptional Success: The Mystic may opt to make the
Distillation last for a day without expending Willpower.

Success: The Mystic succeeds at disrupting the target’s
humour. A number of targets equal to the successes rolled
may not spend their specific energy source for any purpose. A
vampire couldn’t spend Vitae to heal, boost Physical Attributes,
or power Disciplines. A werewolf couldn’t spend Essence to
increase his healing capabilities or power Facets. Any ability or
power the creature has that doesn’t require the expenditure of a
supernatural energy source (such as a demon’s Embeds) functions
normally. This Distillation only interferes with the conduits of
the energy sources; it does not make the target mortal again. This
effect lasts for a number of turns equal to the Mystic’s Azoth.

Success: For the rest of the scene, the Promethean belongs.
Whether part of a bloody werewolf ritual or gliding among the
salons of the undead, the Mystic fits in. The character adds his
Azoth to any rolls toward fitting in or passing himself off as a fellow
supernatural creature of the appropriate type. Further, his Azoth
acts as a penalty to any attempts to discern his true nature

Hey, making a tremere for a v20 game a buddy of mine is running. I distinctly remember a merit or thaumaturgical ritual that involved making something that helps with thaumaturgy, am i remembering something from an old edition or is it indeed in v20?

If it is in v20 what book is it in?

>>55229563
That's why it use to, in 1e, take multiple arcana to effect them. Yes. They gutted all that weirdness from 2e because it was a bottomless hole of stupid.

>>55233745
Funny how in both examples, they don't want to get into the shitshow that would arise if they used a Mage example.

>>55233745
I'm fairly certain that Prime can mimic the second paragraph. Even take the a splat specific power-source and convert it into Mana.

Cool concept to make Goblin contracts with. Go!

>>55233860
They can duplicate the first paragraph as well. Prime.

Not sure about "fitting in with any other supernatural" though. Maybe Mind.

>>55233954
>Exits
>Cabs
>Backstreets
Any combination of these three and you are master of getaways without needing to risk going into hedge.

>>55233860
Not even close.
Mana is not something that's just 'generated' it's a finite resource in the world that only cogeals in certain locations.

You can't just 'turn Vitae into it' any more than you could turn air into it.

If you're playing ASCENSION on the other hand...
But that's because for some retarded reason they needed to hand Mages a reason to hunt other Supernaturals.

>>55233981
No. He's right. Mages have various ways of producing Mana. They can even siphon it out of their Familiars. Or scour themselves for it. Or others.

cWoD question: do other Fera(s) ever make or use Klaive? Or is it "garou only?"

>>55234211
IIRC most other fera have their own fetish weapons, Klaives themselves I believe are a garou only thing.

>>55234054
... Shit, forgot about that.

God I hate that rule. It breaks the Mana economy into tiny pieces, with a 2-dot Merit, and Spirit 2.

Step 1: Get your familiar to convert all its Essence into Mana for you, losing 1 point in the transferral.
Step 2: Use Channel Essence on a suitable Resonant condition for your Familiar, filling their tank up to the top.
Step 3: Repeat steps 1-2, until your Mana tank is entirely full.

Add a Mage with Prime 3, and you can fill up every single mana-containing device you have access to.

>>55234327
There are easier ways to regain your mana you fucking cock gobbler, stop whining.

ES and choose the mana option, spam a simple praxis, swim in mana.

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MUH MANA

>>55234351
Easier than filling up your entire Mana capacity whenever you want given a small idol, a 2-dot familiar, and a 2-dot spell that you don't even need more than 1 reach for?

Sure thing, chucklefuck.
I'll CERTAINLY use my ES's for Mana, rather than getting useful fucking Conditions I can get Arcane Beats from.

>>55234371
Sure, finding that resonant condition for your familiar is so easy.

Go fuck yourself.

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>>55234394
Yeah, it's sooooo hard to find something that matches their purview.

So incredibly, painfully hard.

Just fuck already

>>55234414
So you either spend time finding it or have to stay near it. GG

I dont see your point, Mana is stupidly easy to regain in mage, 1e and 2e. it was never a bottle neck so why are you bitching about it?

Muh breaking mana economy shit.

>>55234443
>Just make a Spirit Ruling Obrimos Legacy already.
FTFY.

Also this Legacy should be Spirit/Prime as opposed to Spirit/Forces.

Mostly because Prime is what the other two idiots are arguing about...I think. Partly because we have the (Entirely non canon) Sixth Watchtower for our Spirit/Forces Snowflakes (and given that their Inferior Arcana is Prime It's a wonder they can actually Mage good at all.)

Is this place always so angry

>>55234493
Because despite your claim as to being 'stupidly' easy to regenerate, you have offered nothing but the Praxis and ES's as an example.

Which require either a Praxis or a good dice pool/luck, generate only 1 Mana per test, and can only be used in situations where spells are important (otherwise as per DaveB's direction, you default to Quick and Dirty).

Plus, that's hardly a complete refresh of all mana, using a familiar, a resonant object, and a 2-dot spell.

>>55234545
Same as normal beats but get turned into arcane exp. Which you use to buy Gnosis, legacy shit, rotes etc

>>55234633
The fuck do you think? Of course we're always angry!

>>55234633
Eat shit

>>55234633
An Archmage touched me in a naughty place

>>55234696
I think I found Caine

>>55234638
whatever, you stick to playing thrysus in a mana starved world with a connected sympathy thing just waiting to be either dispelled or stolen(or wasting 10+ exps on spirit 2) forever and i'll play wtf i want

Another part of the setting that we houseruled is inter-order relations. It's something that I already forgot is different in the setting.

The default nMage setting has inter-order relations be a very lazy mirror of the Vampire relations. the GM convinced us that this is shit (didn't take much) because the Mage setting goes through a thorough description of a functionally differentiated magical organisation, just to end up at the absolutely dysfunctional Vampire template of "Yeah your one order may have the Lax Magica but if they're not top dog in your city it doesn't apply at all!".

In the end we ended up with a slight uhh, I guess unfriendly you could call it "Harry Potterization" of the setting: Mage society doesn't work perfectly, but in general everyone has to obey the Lex Magica, and if shit goes south in a way that can't be handled in-cabal, calling a Lictor from outside is a thing that people actually DO. Just like there's the odd Athaeneum that actually does real competent basic training for mages that are not Mysterium. Just like everyone hopes the Arrow got time when there's an actual military-sized problem.

Of course all those things aren't absolute - if no one sees it, if no one is there to enforce it, you can go ahead and screw the Lex Magica. But there's a sense of that potentially being a crime if anyone finds out, because it's not just that one order that says it holds to the law.

Maybe that is part of why my Mage rounds feel less paranoid.

PS: And also the fact that we're all chronically low on Mana right now, the best we got is a 1-dot Halllow, pretty much everything else gotta be solved by burning structure.

>>55234791
What makes you think mages of any order can just ignore the Lex of a particular consilia?

Seems like a misunderstanding.

>>55234827
It's the feeling I get from reading the example setting in the nWoD Mage (1e?). It suggests that Mages are organized in a structure that pretty much exactly mirrors the Vampire structure, prince-stand in, sherriff-stand in, etc. etc., and that which order the Mage Prince belongs to is the main factor for what goes in the city. It reads like a complete Vampire domain, and this, well, in my eyes mistake, has been repeated in all settings they presented for Mage.

It's suggesting that you're in your full right to go "Screw the Lex, screw the consilium", if you're just powerful enough, and there won't be any PR fallout and problems with your standing in your own order as a result. Which is what we didn't want - even if you're powerful, openly defieing the Traditions of the Pentagram would lead to huge fallout and loss of face.

>>55234869
Then you are wrong.

Hierach != Prince etc.

Do the Seers have more political influence than the Kindred?

>>55234943
Servants of the Exarchs? Have archmasters within their ranks?

simple answer: yes.

>>55234920
Please point out how the default Mage hierarchy is meaningfully different from the Vampire one. I'm not trying to be an asshole here - I am interested in seeing how people make it work (much rather than discussing Mana economy desu).

>>55234943
Complicated question:

My answer would be, if you want to introduce a fundamental change on an organisational level that will shape the reality of eveone inside that organisation, and everyone interacting with it, the Seers are perfectly positioned for it.

If however you want someone get ground between the wheels for absolutely no reason except the naked execution of power, do rather ask the Kindred.

>>55234963
Consilia are more like legal bodies that intervene when mages get into disagrements and the Hierach is the head judge. He cant order you to do things like a Prince can. He cant just makeup any laws but needs to get them past the council and into the Lex.

Cabals/Orders dont even really need to interact with the consilia at all if they arnt in conflict with other mages. You can do whatever you, your cabal/order likes as long as you arnt breaking any of the local laws.

>>55234995
Okay, that is a fair point - but what's the privilege of the Hierarch position then, in your game? Can he convene the consilium? Can he introduce Laws on his own?

>>55234975
To present an example, let's take Harvard: the Seers are the ones you want to talk to if you want everyone coming from the economics department to believe that a high vertical stratification of power is and will always be essential for a good organisation.

The Kindred are the one to talk to if you want to graduate summa cum laude without doing anything.

The point here being that even if the Kindred and the Seers try to subjugate the same organisations, they do it for entirely different purposes. Just because an Archmage can go and make a professor give you a Summa Cum Laude doesn't mean he does give two shits about it.

Mages are typically interested in shaping reality. Vampires are typically interested in exploiting an existing structure to their own benefit. So naturally they're better at those things they consider really important.

>>55235099
I imagine a Cabal of political-savvy Mages would cause untold chaos to any given Prince.

Even worse if one of them is proficient in Fate.

>>55235099
more burden that privilege desu. Imagine having to listen to mages whine on and on about stuff and then have to defend them from left-handed mages too.

Obviously this comes with perks, if you read the consilia status merit, you can see they get access to the consilia stores which can allow you to borrow artifacts, etc etc.

>>55235142
Yes, but I'd argue that the same goes in reverse - my usual argument here being that the time frame Vampires typically operate in is a nightmare for any Mage. Pissing off a creature that can take itself a couple decades to get back at you can be a dicey proposition. Maybe they send out 20 ghouls to expertly shadow you after 5 years, and after 10 years the Seers get a package with every detail of your life?

But yes, arguably a savy Prince wouldn't antagonize a Mage most of the time, unless for some reason it was really worth the trouble. But here too, the same goes in reverse. If you don't assume the Cabal goes in with 100% perfect intel, you're potentially making some really dangerous enemies.

Of course this may go against some players' "Those NPCs are considering themselves powerful? I must show them how insignificant they really are!" grain.

>>55235243
>Yes, but I'd argue that the same goes in reverse
Why do I doubt this.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but Mages are really good at rooting out annoyances. Even influential Vampires.

Seers love vampires. Every vampire is one less person that might awaken.

>>55235243
>Maybe they send out 20 ghouls to expertly shadow you after 5 years, and after 10 years the Seers get a package with every detail of your life?

Are they asking to die? That won't threaten the Seers. That's going to annoy them, which is bad for you.

>>55235264
Why would you go and belittle what is supposed to be one of the major players of the WOD setting that way?

Do you not have the imagination to see how to make Vampires dangerous, or is that just a mix of Mageboner and traditional trolling?

>>55235294
No, it's the fact that such a tactic isn't 'creative' enough to deal with wizards who literally don't give a flying fuck and only care about themselves.

It's a dumb move, that package ordeal.

>>55235290
I meant, the Prince has you shadowed after you pissed them off, and after he's got enough intel he sends it to the Seers so they pay you a visit.

>>55235243
The difference being

It takes years for vampires to get intel on the mage(s), assuming they don't find out about it within the week.
It takes a fortnight for the mage(s) to know things about the vampires, even they don't know themselves.

It's better to be spontaneous against the awakened.

So Goetia are like Shadows from Persona, right?

>>55235322
It really depends on the Mage - yes, it's really hard to surprise an Acanthus, but I dunno not so hard to surprise an Obrimos. I mean if we assume the perfect situation for the Mage, and the worst possible situation for the Vampire, you're right. But that doesn't seem like a productive area of discussion for me.

>>55235294
This isn't Magewank. It's common sense.

A powerful Cabal can fuck up an entire Princedom.
You need only look at Zagreus and what his not!Fate 4 Devotion can pull off.
Now picture an actual Acanthus Master wrecking havoc on a city controlled by the Kindred.

>>55235360
>Obrimos
>Forces Mage Armor
>Kinetic Shields

As soon as you attack the guy he's going to spontaneously incinerate you.
Either you kill him/her in one-shot(highly unlikely), or you're screwed.

>>55235369
Your whole premise in any case seems to be that the Cabal is uber-powerful and has perfect intel and the Princedom is absolutely clueless and remains so, doesn't utilize allies and other threats, and so on. Sounds to me like an extremely boring story not worth tellling.

>>55235379
Just shadow the Obrimos for a while and then send a compilation of his habits to his most dangerous enemies (and possibly even gain a favour from the Seers).

Being a Vampire means you don''t have to get your own hands dirty - you're the apex schemer of the setting, after all.

>>55235391
It would only take a single Adept of Fate (maybe not even) to ruin a Prince's holdfast.
>>55235408
I'd argue that a Mage can be at-least as scheming as the snakiest of Kindred.

Don't use Mages in a Requiem Chronicle.

>>55235419
Well as I said, if you insist on amping the power level of Mages to that point, there's really no point in having the rest of the WOD be there, and if you're ruining the potential to use the rest of the WOD for your game, it's not me who suffers for it.

It doesn't matter if you tell me I misunderstood the setting, because the outcome is this: I can use the entire setting to its full effect and have all of the major players be a threat to each other. If that means I'm not playing by the book, then the book is wrong and I'm right.

>>55235408
You would only know what he does at night if you did it yourself, and honestly if Seers were intent on taking him out they would already know much, much more than you would find out by following him for a few nights. Chances are they would anyway.

>>55235462
There's nothing wrong with you tweaking things for your own benefit, Anon.
It's just strange that you'd think Mages even need to be "amped" to be the bigger heavyweights in your purported scenario.

Whatever that means.

>I can use the entire setting to its full effect and have all of the major players be a threat to each other
I agree! Pound for pound? Not so much.

Kindred 'kingdoms' going against the Awakened pseudo-governments? The outcome is going to be rather silly.
Mages don't fuck around.

A single Cabal of mustache twirling tophats is going to be the perfect final boss for an entire Kindred "kingdom"

>>55235462
>[Hubris Intensifies]

>>55235507
>amped
Basically all the arguments against me in this thread are based on the premise that a Mage has access to whatever arcanum is most useful to him in any given situation, and a Vampire antagonist is on his own and doesn't try to be smart. They assume that everyone always has perfect information: If a Vampire can find shit out, the Seers know it because hey they're Mages. But that's dumb, that's not how the real world works. That's why your character goes to a street bum to ask about if a skinhead guy with a snake tattoo went past the last hour, because even the freaking bum knows shit he doesn't.

>>55235560
>the premise that a Mage has access to whatever arcanum is most useful to him in any given situation
Every single Arcanum is useful in 3/4 of scenarios, in some way or another.

>they assume that everyone always has perfect information
The Practice of Knowing is one dot.

>But that's dumb, that's not how the real world works
Realistically, vampires shouldn't even be existent in a world with wizards of this magnitude.

>>55235560
*sigh*

You seem set in your ways, so I'm just going to drop it.

>>55235594
>The Practice of Knowing is one dot.
The Practice of Knowing is useful, but extremely limited. Time 1 doesn't let you look back in time, Space 1 doesn't let you scry.

>Realistically, vampires shouldn't even be existent in a world with wizards of this magnitude.
Why not?

>>55235560
I don't understand your point. You think it's unlikely for a Mage to be an Adept of Fate, or that Fate is the only Arcanum that could be used against vampires? You think that the Seers, Mages with no compunctions that are entrenched in the Fallen World's power structure and sworn enemies of the Pentacle, wouldn't know more about any Mages of note in a city than a vampire could find out just by following them for a few nights? And if you want to bring in allies, you're rightly and truly fucked, because any Mage can at the very least bring in his Cabal, if they aren't in already.

Side question, are incapable of understand hypotheticals?

>>55235623
>The Practice of Knowing is useful, but extremely limited
No, it isn't. It's actually very versatile. You also get the Practice of Unveiling at one dot.

>Time 1 doesn't let you look back in time
Yes it does. Postcognition is a Time 1 spell. So is Divination.

>>55235623
Why would the Mage need to look back in time or scry?

>>55235560
>>55235623

You're very evidently new to this place.

>>55235633
It was me who presented the hypothetical of a pissed off Vampire who takes his time to find the weakness of a Mage, and then strikes. I was rebutted with the argument: "But the Mage would use [arcanum that removes weakness] and anyhow he'd know because he's a Mage.".
That strikes me as someone other than me not understanding what a hypothetical is.

>>55235682
>"But the Mage would use [arcanum that removes weakness] and anyhow he'd know because he's a Mage.".
Where was this said?

>>55235682
...It was said that it wouldn't be a good tactic to use against them. Blackmail just isn't pragmatic to use against the Wise.

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>anon doesn't grasp the glory that is mage supremacy

I hate reruns

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>it's another "ignorant moron tries to argue against mage supremacy episode"
You guys wanna really know how to beat Mage Supremacy? You chill out, accept it as it is, and then realize that it really doesn't matter one bit. Then you can just ignore Mage as a whole and things will be much better for you, not to mention this thread.

>>55235738
>>55235741

What the fuck is this

>>55235662
Postcognition is two dots in my core book, same as Divination. Maybe they changed it for 2e, but why the hell would they do that?

Knowing is a useful, flexible but still very limited practice. Yes - it's important that Mages have this - but it doesn't remove the need to ask the bum.

>>55235663
Because those are two of the ways Mages have to get valuable information, something that's been argued a lot in this thread (but the Mage would know it). I was assuming he'd know it by those practices and not just because he is a Mage.

>>55235749
Evidence of a Magefag hivemind

>>55235757
>Maybe they changed it for 2e, but why the hell would they do that?
They did, and they did it because they divided the 13 Practices into 5 dots and just because a spell is at a low dot level doesn't mean it should be weak.

>but it doesn't remove the need to ask the bum.
Depends on what question. You wanna ask the bum if a guy came through? You could, and he might just tell you what you wanna hear after you give him 10 bucks, but to know for sure you could cast Postcognition.

>>55235794
Go back to sleep.

From reply of players who argue from Mages perspective I get that Mages are mega-boring and incompatible with any other splat unless you assume everything happens or doesn't happen because Mages/Seers/Exarch/etc decided so.
In essence this means that interaction with Mages as is is completely futile and uninteresting and they should be just left in Mages and mortals only universe wanking each other off.

>>55235825
In conclusion: How the fuck do people like this splat?

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>>55235849
THE POWAH

>>55235849
Because it's actually a fun and interesting game, and it isn't made into a bad one just because Mages are stronger than the other splats. Compatibility is essentially a non-factor, these games aren't reliant on crossover in any way and do very little, if not nothing, to encourage it.

>>55235801
Typically a spell starts out weak, and gains momentum as your grasp of the underlieing arcanum grows. In 1e you have the Divination thing start out with "Flip of the Coin" granting you a short glimpse into the immediate future with a yes/no answer, and then steadily amps up until at 4 dots you can do actual, powerful divination with "Prophecy" where you can get complex questions answered (even though there's necessarily a lot of storyteller handwaving about how precise and accurate information about the future can be).

Of course those are just Rote examples for the level of expertise reached. My point being, just because 1 dot gives you access to the practice of Knowing, it doesn't mean that at that point you have an all-encompassing understanding of it.

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>>55235862

>>55235881
But that is exactly the point.

2e is far more consistent than 1e because spells stick to the practices over artificial dot requirements.

>>55235862
But anon, you can't travel to Jupiter in MtAW!

>>55235880
I mean I didn't get interested in horror game to play urban fantasy?
This might be just taste thing, could you pitch it to me?

>>55235907
Using both is superior if you ask me. The idea that unlocking the ability to do something and perfecting the ability to do something is the same step, pretty much runs contrary to everything I want Mage to be about.

>>55235881
>Typically a spell starts out weak, and gains momentum as your grasp of the underlieing arcanum grows.
This is still reflected in 2e, as you're able to move spells up their Primary Factor chart without incurring penalties a number of times equal to your Arcanum rating -1, and you gain free Reach for a spell for every level you meet and surpass the spell's dot requirement . So at just 1 dot in Time, if you want to ask more than 1 yes or no question with Divination, you would have to incur a -2 penalty for every level of Potency you add. You could get more specific answers to more specific questions by spending a Reach. And all in all, Divination doesn't mean you're totally prepared for the future, just that you know the answers to what you asked.

>>55235880
just entering the conversation here, and relatively new to WoD; how do mage games even run, anyway?
what do they look like, and what kind of problems and antagonists do they face?

everything posted here gives me the impression that you could only really threaten a group of mages with something obnoxiously powerful that can no-sell most of their abilities.

>>55235936
Not to forget that either the answers are TRUE, or you can CHANGE THEM. Which makes for a pretty neat bit of style because depending on your Mages belief he can't dodge the bullet - he can just be prepared to rise from the dead.

>>55235940
google daveb's actual play games.

Cant remember what they are called atm but somefag here will mention it.

they were 1e and years ago, but got him the job as its developer ;)

>>55235930
>>55235940
Essentially Mage is a game about pursuing Mysteries, and in the course of doing so trying your best not to fall to the temptation of abusing your power, or doing stupid shit with it. Mages have to fight other Mages, cosmic horrors, and really anything else the ST might put in that's appropriate to the story. Cryptids, fallen Supernal entities called the Bound, powerful spirits, etc. The games can be adventurous, political, dramatic, horror, or all of the above.

Mage can get horrific pretty fast if you delve into what Mages can become if they fall too far.

>>55235940
>only threaten a group of mages with something obnoxiosly powerful and can no-sell most of their abilities.

Oh you mean other mages?

>>55235974
Soul Cage, Broken Diamond, and there was some other third one set in Vegas that I forget the name of.

>>55236001
Man in a cupboard or some shit like that.

>>55235940
You realize Mages arguably deal with the most powerful antagonists in the CofD setting, right?

>>55235940
>what kind of problems and antagonists do they face?
The biggest, nastiest ones who would eat other splats for breakfast.

And when fighting them, Mages had better not slip.
Because many of them have a lot nastier ways of taking you out that clawing up the curtains or shooting you with nerf guns.

>>55235990
>Mage can get horrific pretty fast if you delve into what Mages can become if they fall too far.
Doesn't that require the players to go that route themselves, or putting something nearly insurmountable as an antagonist?
>>55235998
How does it not end up as rocket tag, or I kill you via ritual from my basement 20 miles away?
Every splat I have played had an Achilles's heel or ways to promote dissuasion from outright "I win" scenarios. How do you do that with a mage's potential power outside of jumping them with outrageously overwhelming force?

>>55235940
I'm the guy arguing that Mages aren't as far out powerful as people here make it out to be.

Our last plots in our fairly new campaign were:

Someone accidentally unleashing some kind of demon (we're still not quite sure what EXACTLY it was) from his prison, and us coming up with a plan to trap it and lock it away again.

Appraising an artifact for a third party, only to have it be stolen by agents of the Veil and trying to get it back (we didn't, in the end - mostly because we chose forcing the Veil agents to reveal part of their dubious leaders' plot to us over the artifact - to be continued).

Pissing off a rather powerful spirit in the neighbourhood and deciding to make amends rather than a new enemy.

A half-hour blackout turns out to be the result of a huge Seers ritual inside the city. As a result, the uneasy ceasefire between the Seers and the Pentagram is lifted for 24 hours. The party desperately tries to find out what the fuck it was the Seers wanted, before every trace of it is erased. All the while they're distracted by the outbreak of hostilities, the Seers attacking a Veil members' Sanctum and general chaos caused by the aftereffects of the ritual.

We're rather early in the campaign.

>>55236064
>Pentagram
Pentacle.

>>55236007
>>55236018
I see this a lot, but I have never seen anyone actually break down what these antagonists are capable of.
Take Idigams. They are incredibly potent, so much so that even face to face engines of destruction like werewolves in a coordinated group could not take one on without incredible risk, and must put in the work to weaken it via banes and bans before having any real chance.
You don't even need to go as far as idigams, most rank 4+ spirits outright require such measured approaches in order to confront, and that is without the incredibly versatility and capacity a single mage, or worse, a group of mages possess.

>>55236064
Oh and: Next session, I'm gonna try and talk to a Werewolf about Spirits, because our group has no one who knows about the Spirit arcanum, and the only Mage we know in the city who has it, is an apprentice who pretty much doesn't know shit either.

>>55236082
Lost in translation.

>>55236043
>Doesn't that require the players to go that route themselves, or putting something nearly insurmountable as an antagonist?
No, because I didn't just mean them turning into actual monsters, although that's something they can do. Not that the actual monsters are insurmountable anyway.

>How does it not end up as rocket tag
Not him, but various defensive measures and such. The book also encourages not outright gunning to kill your players, or build situations in which the death of one party is the only possible outcome. Mages also typically operate in a kind of cold war. Things can get hot, but otherwise the game isn't open magical warfare.

>I kill you via ritual from my basement 20 miles away?
You would need Space 2 and a sympathetic yantra (lock of hair, picture, etc) that is mandatory but offers no bonus to the casting. You would also need to be capable of casting a spell that can outright kill, or deal enough damage to kill. This isn't going into things like Withstand, and then the consequences of your assassination attempt, whether it worked or not.

>>55236126
>You would need Space 2 and a sympathetic yantra
Remember, remote spellcasting is also a thing.
An incredibly insane, infrequently remembered thing.

If you're receiving a live feed from someone else, you can cast on them if you spend one reach more than sensory range.

That means Mages can cast through telephone lines.
Or across video streaming.

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>>55236142
>That means Mages can cast through telephone lines.

>>55236142
Where do you take that from? Still needs Space 2 in my book, it just gives you a spatial sympathetic connection.

>>55236092
Most spirits lower than rank 6s will get bent over and fucked up the ass from a thyrsus, idigam or not.

>>55236159
READ THE FUCKING BOOK!

Live remote casting is extra reach past sensory range and doesnt need space sympathy.

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>>55236159
Not him, but third from the bottom.

>>55236159
it spells it out for you here

>(casting magic through a Familiar requires a Reach for remote viewing, but does not require the Sympathetic Range Attainment),

>>55236171
Depends on how strong the Thyrsus is in Spirit.

>>55236178
Thanks
>>55236175
see >>55236178 how a post is done.

>>55236158
Not even sympathetic, my friend.
ANY Mage can cast through phones.

>>55236190
Command spirit is rank 2, all thrysus have it nobber. It actually depends on gnosis and rotes probably.

>>55236188
How far can your Familiar move from you?

>>55236204
6 inches.

What the fuck do you think, as far as it likes?

>>55236195
It's an old filename.

>>55236204
As far as you like.
Familiar is a condition without a range limitation.
Unless for some stupid reason you decided to also fetter your Familiar.

>>55236210
ie till the end of my cock. Im not large but 6 inches is fine.

>>55235862
>THE POWAH

>Meh, force lightning is only Forces or Prime 3

>>55236222
Forces 3 is force tickling.

>>55235935
>The idea that unlocking the ability to do something and perfecting the ability to do something is the same step, pretty much runs contrary to everything I want Mage to be about.

"Perfecting" the ability is through the use of Reach which is much easier and less dangerous as your advance in the Arcanum or purchase the Rote of a particular spell.

>>55236198
Thanks for making it clear you've only read parts of the book and have never actually played a game of Awakening.

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>>55236018
>The biggest, nastiest ones who would eat other splats for breakfast.

>>55236222
It's actually Forces 4.

>>55236193
PS: Since we're playing nWoD 1e, I think this doesn't apply to my game actually - and I much prefer for that kind of effect to largely remain within the purview of Space.

>>55236252
Lol, you have obviously never had starting thrysus' bum rank 4-5 spirits then?

Poor you.

>>55236158
>That means Mages can cast through telephone lines.

>Mages don't fuck around when they reach out and touch someone

>Can you hear me now, motherfucker!

>>55235155
>Imagine having to listen to mages whine on and on about stuf
Who has to imagine? We get that shit every time a mage vs other splat war happens

>>55236255
Haha, so that's straight from the mouth of the 2e dev? Holy shit I mean I've always been saying most Mage devs didn't really understand their own game but that one takes the cake.

>>55236255
MATT WARD UP IN THIS BITCH, ULTRAMAGEENS

>>55236319
What's precisely wrong about it?

>>55236319
what you really mean is you dont understand it aswell as him and because you wank over demon/mummy or both you cant stand the fack they get rimmed by mages.

>>55236334
Fawning over your own Splat to the point of saying it's not supposed to integrate with the other Splats of the setting that are clearly supposed to integrate?

Well, I can't lay my finger on it right now but something's amiss!

>>55236354
Something is indeed amiss here. 3/10 got me to reply.

>>55236376
Matt Ward syndrome is not a good thing, and it clearly damaged your young minds to the point where you think it's actually cool.How does it feel to know even 40K fags have more class?

>>55236393
That is such a false equivalence that it isn't funny.

>>55236465
Just ignore him.

>>55236465
I agree, that dev isn't funny, he's rather sad - and so are his acolytes.

>>55236354
Splats were never supposed to integrate.

Its why contagion chronicles is going to give everybody who reads it aids.

>>55236567
I assume it's a mere coincidence that they're all in the same setting then?

>>55236608
Are they tho?

The games use the same rules sure, but they are not the same settings.

>>55236655
I believe the setting is called the "World of Darkness" and a major hint that they're connected is that the players from the other splats constantly get cross referenced - at least in the 1e I am familiar with, every Path has a stereotypical position on Werewolves and Vampires. That might at least cause a gullible person like me to believe they share the same setting.

>>55236608

In nWOD/1e, attempts were made to balance the splats. The effort was not considered successful.

In Cofd/2e, development focused only on internal balance with priority given to mechanics consistent with the themes and settings of the particular gameline.

All the splats exist in the same shared CofD universe with generally consistent rules. However, that does not mean the splats are "equal" or "balanced" against one another. The development of the upcoming Contagion Chronicles will apparently be an attempt to give the various splats reasons to interact and the mechanical means to do so without dominance by one splat over another. Whether this will be successful is as of yet undetermined.

>>55236608
Sharing a setting doesn't mean they're meant to integrate into each other's games. The option is there, of course, but it's just that, optional.

>>55236733
I was never talking about "balance" in the sense of trying to mechanically cause characters from Splat A and Splat B to be euqally powerful - that's of no big interest to me.

The balance I am talking about stems from the fact that the focus of the different Splats is so different that the means at their disposal are strange and threatening to each other, because at the core of things the WOD is always about mystery and the unknown (not just in terms of supernatural power, but in the sense of their allegiances, their general ressources and their motives), and that is the crossroads at which Mages, Vampires and Werwolves can interact very well, and pose an excellent potential threat to each other.

>>55236836
It all comes down to how you handle it, really.

>>55236836
Mages easily BTFO every other splat bar fresh mummy and Loud Demon. It takes a master to fight those two exceptions. Woofs, leeches, beasts none of them pose any sort danger to one of the Wise.

>>55236126
>Not that the actual monsters are insurmountable anyway.
What are these monsters mechanically that are so dangerous that other splats can't even compare?
I hear a lot of names, but never what they are actually capable of doing in game terms compared to other great threats other game lines face.
>various defensive measures and such
What are these measures that other game lines lack. In my experience, each splat has a set of defensive abilities designed to ward off supernatural attacks, how are mages' defenses so much more potent?
>The book also encourages not outright gunning to kill your players
This applies when it's cabals versus cabals, not things that deign to ignore casual niceties. EVERY splat has that warning when it comes to internecine warfare, vampires are generally dissuaded from openly toasting other vamps, wolves have societal restrictions, etc.
>You would need Space 2 and...
So all the things that would apply to all splats when it comes to ganking each other, save that mages are just that much fucking better at it, especially considering >>55236142?
>>55236393
Stop taking memes at face value, anon. You don't know enough about 40k to know why the Ward nonsense was exactly that. Everything he brought up, save Necrons which was a company decision, was RT/2e codex material that the 3e/4e babbies didn't know existed.

>>55237068
And you missed the point of what >>55236836
said entirely.

>>55237141
If they are intentionally making crossover scenarios a thing, and their response to when their customer base says "You say they can work together as roughly equals when one group is clearly more powerful than the others at what the others are supposed to excel at" is "Hurr don't use the book version (when we are promoting exactly the opposite because pcs WILL BE USING THE BOOK VERSION)", it seems disingenuous.
The lack of parity and sense was a complaint I had with WoD, and the fact that CofD went the same route is annoying at best, and disgusts me for it's laziness and fanboy dick riding at worst.

>>55237232
>and the fact that CofD went the same route is annoying at best, and disgusts me for it's laziness and fanboy dick riding at worst.
Well it is the world that came about after the wod Metaplot happened, so obvious the Wyld changed some stuff and kept other bits.

>>55237273
>it is the world that came about after the wod Metaplot happened
When has WoD metaplot had any effect on CofD?
The new WoD books cover that, CofD has it's own lore and focus.

>>55237232
To be honest, the solution to the roughly-equals problem is super fucking simple: If you got the Super Spirit Jiff in the group, don't complement him with a Super Spirit Thyrsus. If you got a Mind arcanum prodigy with an extended network of spies in the group, don't put a Vampire with a ton of ghouls next to him. It's super fucking simple to balance those things so everyone gets the same amount of spotlight.

And if you are asking yourself why your buddy doesn't just play a Mind Mage instead of the Vampire, you're missing the point - it's like looking at the Fellowship of the Ring and going "WOW WHY DIDN'T THEY TAKE 4 LEGOLASESES AND 4 ARAGORNS".

>>55237495
So your advice is to shoot down my player's character ideas because "lol someone else already is doing it!"?
This is ignoring the fact that a mage need not overspecialize in a single area to match or beat another splat in their specialty.

>>55237565
Yes. It definitely helps to try and balance characters out so they're not constantly set to steal each other's spotlight by design. It's fine when that happens in some areas, and combat is a different story in most cases anyway. But not having a ton of super-specialized redundancy in your group is in my opinion a good way to prevent unhappiness.

Following the same logic, in our campaigns if one player decides for his character to have a nemesis, in the final battle between those two another character doesn't typically jump in front and try to steal the spotlight by killing the other guys' nemesis.

>>55237635
A better comparison is telling my player they can't be a Thrysus because there is already one in the party, or there can only be a single Gangrel, for some reason.
It's shitty advice for an equally shitty situation that didn't actually need to be were it not for ascended fanboys.

>>55237689
This problem is entirely unrelated to Ascended fanboys, it's about building character that click with each other. We're usually having a session zero for this. In many cases we're even fitting the characters' backstories to each other - like having Hunters who are all part of the same family. Doesn't mean you have to tell each other every little secret of your character. Doesn't even mean there's got to be only one Gangrel or whatever, as long as the players figure out a mode of coexistence before the game.

In my experience this is going a long way in assuring that the characters actually fit, instead of having such divergent concepts that the campaign literally has to force them to endure each other.

>>55237805
>Doesn't even mean there's got to be only one Gangrel or whatever, as long as the players figure out a mode of coexistence before the game.
This is because those Gangrels can easily find different routes to the same conclusion within their circle, and one will not be outright superior to the other.
I am imagining the conversation, even a session 0, where I have to shoot down a player's mage concept, and when they ask me why, I tell them "because you will overshadow *insert splat*'s reason for existing". It's 3.PF bullshit all over again, and I left games like that behind because I was tired of the nonsense, of the people defending poor game design and decisions.
Amusingly enough, these threads are EXACTLY the same as the 3.5 threads were, with the nonstop white room dick waving, the insistence that bad mechanical decisions are ok because reasons. I mean, the constant reason I see for mages being so strong is because their antagonists are, but what prevents the devs from bringing them in line with the greater antagonists from other lines? Or better, the ipso facto loop of mages being strong because their primary opponents are other mages?
>and I've still yet to see anyone actually explain what mage antagonists can do mechanically that makes them so threatening that mages need to be mechanically head and shoulders above others not to win, but to survive

>>55237945
I'm the guy coming from 1e who's argued against the idea of Mage supremacy for about 50 posts, so you'll forgive me if I'm a bit tired of that debate. And to be honest I still don't see your problem - because essentially it's the same problem you have if one of your players takes a super cool Police ally at 4 which is gonna be a cornerstone of his whole concept, and another player takes a super cool Police ally at 5. Such things can happen even in an entirelly "balanced game" (ridiculous notion for me anyway). Or in any game you can have the situation if two players come up with a concept that has them set up to be the "face" of the group and then they potentially fight about talking to every NPC.

And the best way to deal with it is to talk to the players, and have them talk to each other, to make sure they're not trying to take the same portion of the plot with the samle shtick and will piss each other off to no end by competing for it.

>>55238030
>makes a super cool Police ally at 4 which is gonna be a cornerstone of his whole concept, and another player takes a super cool Police ally at 5
Not that hard. The cops are at different precincts and have different duties, each can offer something the other can't, and sometimes can offer nothing.
>2 faces
I'd tell the players to shut up and work targets together, rather than thinking they alone can run the scene, not tell them to make different concepts. 2 faces is actually an ideal that most players don't know, it allows the group to move and not worry about having to dump all the social maneuvering on a single pc.

>>55238079
So basically if two players are stealing each others' thunder, you either fluff it so they're unique or you tell them to shut up and work together?

I g u e s s that might work with Mages and Werewolves etc too, if you don't want to do a session zero.

>>55238129
Anon, part of that is basic GM'ing.
Yes, you can have similar archetypes work together seamlessly, it isn't hard.
It does become hard when one of those archetypes is flat out better than the other at the same measure of advancement in the course of the game.
2 faces can easily work together, and if they can't, that's the players being fucktards and trying to hog the spotlight.
Having multiple police allies doesn't mean shit because allies are not omnipotent and have limits. One can do what the others can't.
The situation in discussion is having a level 8 fightyguy in the same party as a level 50 fightyguy (yes, hyperbole, I'm using an mmo standard) and expecting them to contribute in a equivalent fashion because the nature of an XP system means they have the same advancement when they clearly do not.

>>55238191
DESU coming from 1e I still have a hard time understanding how Mages allegedly got so strong. In 1e, if you take a Thyrsus and a Werewolf right out of chargen - the Werewolf will tear the Thyrsus to pieces in combat without breaking a sweat. All of the cool powers the Thyrsus must pump mana into and fear paradox for, the Woof got for free, and in most cases they're even reflexive. And on the spirit side, the Thyrsus might be quite a bit better and mostly more versatile, but the Werewolf might have quite a few unique advantages that the Mage can't ever have.

What the hell happened between editions that this changed so much?

>>55238254
That is chargen, anon, yes, the werewolf has a direct combat advantage.
It fades as XP comes into play because wolves have to burn a shitton of XP to advance. I ran WtF for 2 years, it was outrageous how much XP I watched the players put into prereqs alone that other splats didn't need to bother with, which really slowed down their advancement in the things that would keep them alive.
1e had the same issues with power creep in terms of Mage and Demon. As for Mage, it was because you could do so much more for what you got with XP, and the limits were not only lesser than other splats, but paradox could be neatly avoid or minimized if you played your cards right.
As for your Thrysus example, it wouldn't have more versatility than the wolf, but also far more direct power over spirits. Wolves need to ask and bargain, a Thrysus can outright command and demand, and be obeyed.

>>55238377
>a Thrysus can outright command and demand, and be obeyed.
last time I played a Thyrsus in a campaign, this really depended on your level as a Mage. If you're packing Spirit 2-3 you might be quite well advised to ask and bargain, because if your cool commands don't work, you might have a pissed off spirit to deal with on top of what your original problem was. And with more powerful spirits, you might have that problem even as an accomplished summoner, PLUS that those might keep a grudge even when successfully forced (because they're easily intelligent enough to understand what you did).

>>55238489

On the other hand, mages often have an easier time negotiating with spirits. They don't have the historical and inherent baggage of werewolves, and mage diversity usually means mages have far more to offer the spirit in return for its assistance.

Also, from the spirit's perspective, they know mages tend to grow in power. A mage friend or ally is potentially a significant asset in spirit politics well beyond a werewolf, to say nothing of an entire cabal versus a pack.

By time a mage reaches the level of Disciple, no less in Spirit, he's moved beyond the power level of most werewolves, and this can easily happen at character generation.

>>55238745
Agreed, but if he goes down that route at character creation, he will be even more utterly, laughably dwarved at the Life aspects we were talking about, and take even longer to catch up - not to forget that tricks like "making regeneration reflexive" will remain impossible to reach for him, unless he creates a kind of ghetto version of it by dipping into Time and Fate and hanging up a few conditional spells (and the trick would still be mana-intensive and cause paradox [yes, insta-Healing causes paradox, because how the heck would that be covered, devs you dunces]).

Why is this one guy arguing against mage SUPREMACY when his only experience with Mage is 1e? 2e mage is a completely different ballgame compared to 1e mechanically. Same thing with werewolf and vampire for that matter . In 2e an apprentice of spirit can do things a Werewolf itheur boneshadow elder can't. This isn't hyperbole it is fact.

>>55238837
Apparently so. But I've still not quite gotten the memo about when in 2e Mages start dwarving their fellow creatures of the night cycle that hard. Apparently I just got conceded that a Werewolf out of chargen is a pretty tough opponent for a Mage out of chargen. Is there a sweetspot where Mages start to take off and be the super cool fonzies no one can touch?

>>55238872
Well when it comes to spirit it only takes 2 dots for a mage to outstrip a wolf. 2 dots in mind for a mage to out strip a vamp and 2 dots in death for a mage to out strip a sin eater etc.

>>55238872
Boy have I told you the wonders of Creative Thaum yet? Would you like to hear about a neat little spell cooked up right in this general called Kinetic Shield?

How important is Initiative in combat? If it varies between splats, than Requiem and Awakening.

>>55238872

At three dots in an Arcanum, mages are VERY impressive, at four dots, they're easily the big bad, and at five dots, they're near untouchable juggernauts whose mere glance causes people to wet themselves.

When a mage's particular proficiency deal with the area of specialization or weakness of another spat (e.g., Fate for changelings), the effect is amplified.

In Mage 2e, the Arcana and Practices removed all artificial limiters that existed to "balance" mages. For instance, now Life works on humans and Forces can control gravity from inception. There also no longer any vulgar magic, and Paradox is more easily avoided.

>>55238918
Depends on their dicepools, to be honest. For powers that would Clash, anyway. Like Dominate against Mental Shield.

Can a mage do aggravated damage to an idigam with an attack spell with spirit magic?

I want to say yes but I'm not sure if idigam have a special rule.

>>55238918
Yeah but as far as I can tell you're reducing them to their buy-per-dot cool powers now, and out of the bag, the Werewolf has a ton of inherent powers he doesn't spend squat on, and which are actually quite powerful. They're reproducible for certain Mages but you have to be powerful, you have to spend quite a lot more time on it, and it will cost you in terms of Magic and paradox. To a smaller degree, this also goes for Vampires (blood buff and blood heal are dirt cheap and you don't need to purchase dots for em).

So arguably if you take those inherent powers into account, it takes quite a while longer until those other creatures are outclassed.

>>55238965
Initiative is always important. Especially when dealing with supernaturals who can end a fight in a single turn.

>>55239006
Barring any special rule for Idigams, yes. Adept level in an Arcanum means you can perform spells from the Practice of Unraveling, which for a Reach and a Mana can deal Aggravated damage.

>>55238984
>In Mage 2e, the Arcana and Practices removed all artificial limiters that existed to "balance" mages. For instance, now Life works on humans and Forces can control gravity from inception. There also no longer any vulgar magic, and Paradox is more easily avoided.

Okay thanks. Ugh. That sounds indeed pretty powerful. Like, even further away from "Unknown Armies" and even further towards "Marvel Magic".

>>55239016
>So arguably if you take those inherent powers into account, it takes quite a while longer until those other creatures are outclassed.

That's not necessarily true. Each dot in an Arcanum opens up near limitless possibilities due to Creative Thaumaturgy. No other splat has even a fraction of the versatility of mage as a result of the game's open-ended magic system.

I wish Mages were balanced when compared to other splats, but only because there is a very slim chance it might actually make these threads less boring.

>>55239077
>even further towards "Marvel Magic

It's not quite cinematic magic, despite the boasts of some Mage fans.

However, in context, the power level is not as impressive as it sounds. Mage antagonists, notable other mages, are equally as powerful, if not more so. Mage simply operates on higher adversary power tier. Mage allows players to engage in cosmic-level horror as compared to the more street-level horror of other games. Such style of play is certainly not everyone's preference, buy it's good that the CofD offers choices of horror genre.

>>55239016
There are a lot of factors to take into account. These arguments are reductionist by nature. People just saying "X can do this and that, Y can't". X usually being Mages. There's really no point getting invested, because on paper you can write up the perfect Mage to have the perfect counter to any given thing. And there's nothing wrong with that, Mages have a ton of options. It's part of the fun. So long as you realize that in play, not every Mage will have the perfect counter, or will have more weight to throw around than every other supernatural they meet.

Demon and Changeling cross over sounds like it could have lot of cool thematic overlap.
Has anyone ever tried to do that or is it too soon to say without Changeling 2e out?

Less related: I've already seen worldbuilding/justification how True Fae may be just God-Machines bitches, but could it be done other way around? Can God-Machine be made into one of the Kindly Folk of Arcadia or their subordinate?

>>55239102
>I wish Mages were balanced when compared to other splats

You might get your wish with the upcoming Contagion Chronicles.

If WW does try to balance, I just hope it seems organic within the setting, and not some blunt and creativity-deficient mechanism like the Contagion is susceptible to all supernatural powers but somehow immune to supernal magic because... reasons.

>>55239168
>Such style of play is certainly not everyone's preference, buy it's good that the CofD offers choices of horror genre.
I'd argue that this was always in at the upper end of Mage and now from what people say ITT it's apparently been pushed onto 75% of the character progression. It's not my cup of tea indeed, I can see why my GM wants to stay at 1e and just adapt 1-2 good ideas from 2e (didn't know why before, but didn't particularly care either).

>>55239168
Cosmic level horror isn't really horror if it isn't on street level. It being out there and you gazing upward towards it while crying blood is what makes it horror. Lot less scary when you are one of jackasses playing poker with Eldritch.

>>55239236
Wait I think I mixed up Cosmic Horror with Cosmic level Horror. Never mind.

>>55239227
Your GM is probably just being obstinate. If one thinks 2e is too easy or something, there are easy ways to make it less so. Reach beyond your free Reach adds turns, a chance die on Paradox gets a success for more numbers than just 10, being unable to mitigate Paradox unless you're releasing it, etc. Maybe some spell tweaks. Easy stuff.

Really the only thing 1e has over 2e is the fiction. I do like that it's still canon though. Morvran, Angrboda, Arctos, and even Glorianna are all mentioned at points.

>>55239168
>notable other mages
If Mages were weaker this would solve itself.

>>55239340
For it to be solved implies that there's really a problem.

>>55239356
And here we have it, folks.
/thread

Feedback requested on this idea for a Changeling/Demon Chronicle.

You all come from a futuristic cyberpunk-esque Arcadia, where everything from mutant serums to the dreams of children have a price tag. Each of you escaped by adapting to this ruthless business world, until you had enough resources to buy a ticket back to Earth. However, there was a catch: you need to build your own business empire on the Ironside within [insert deadline here], or you will be recaptured. Your Keeper will be sending Huntsmen and other agents to spy on your progress and sabotage you, and fellow changelings might either help or take advantage of your vulnerability. Who can you trust? What plans will you make? And what will be the price of your virtue?

>>55239306
From what I've seen ITT, the main differences between 1e and 2e seem to be that:

>Practices have been reworked to a point where they're attainable more quickly and stronger
>Vulgar has been removed
>Paradox has been weakened
>Spell improvisation has been simplified

To be honest, the last one is the only one that would have been potentially attractive to me. But we've spent so much time to make spell improvisation work for us in our Mage group that there's no lure anymore. The other ones just sound like they're kicking the game away from a flavour I enjoy. I prefer John Constantine to Doctor Strange, because Strange is essentially a superhero with a magic skin over his superpowers. That's not the kind of game I am looking for.

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>>55239236
>>55239268
>horror
Are WoD game sessions supposed to be scary? I don't get it.

>>55239558
Sounds fun, do it!

As an aside - my favourite recent Changeling concept was a Fairest that didn't escape. His Keeper simply got bored of him and left him in exchange for new tail. His thing was to fill the void (obviously) and to try to GET BACK IN.

>>55239572
>That's not the kind of game I am looking for.
And it's not really the kind of game you'll get, unless that's what you and your ST want to do it. Practices have been tweaked for consistency and to be balanced internally, it's not like what they can do has been radically upgraded. Paradox also hasn't been nerfed that much, it's just that you don't get it for casting "vulgar" magic anymore. It can still fuck you over if you engage it, and if you aren't engaging it, congratulations, you're being Wise with your magic, which is a big deal.

I would say just read it yourself and come to your own conclusions instead of listening to bozos on the internet.

>>55239657
Maybe if I have a couple free hours, but we're really getting along fine with nWOD 1e and as I said my GM who read it isn't exactly a fan (except for some changes like a broader setup of Sight powers which he adapted). It was nice to hear a couple impressions from other people.

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>>55239210
Demons don't associate with gay fariy fuccbois

>>55239744

You need to try a Cover that is more *fabulous* and you might change your mind.

>>55239744
Thanks for pissing me of. God-Machine is just a True Fae now. It operates from Arcadia to drive humanity in such boredom induced despair we will simply embrace the beautiful abusive madness of Arcadia. Angels are Huntsmen and Loyalist Changelings who have developed Stockholm syndrome for their Big Brother, and Demons are too traumatized to remember that they were human, meaning that they are the true otherkin of the setting.
And best of all is that none of this would stop me from enjoying either gameline and I would still play Demon: the Gay Otherkin. It's just that I know that this will make you all icky, which is frankly hilarious.

>>55239617
Sounds like the beginning of a nasty Loyalist (which is a Seeming in 2ed, I think).

>>55239843
Haha but that isn't true fuccboi. Why should I care that you are mad because I called you a gay fuccboi. Nothing wrong being a gay fuccboi otherkin.

>>55239843
This raises an interesting question: I changeling demon would Mask was a cower, and Mien their Loud form, what Seeming and Kith would work best to fool Demons into accepting them as one of their own.
And what kind of Demon could be made indistinguishable from Changeling?

>>55239991
>*If Changeling Demon would believe that their Mask was their Cower and their Mien their Loud form.
I shouldn't post while on a walk.

>>55239991
Changeling are too weak to impersonate also it would be weird seeing a "changeling" beat the shit out of their huntsman.

>>55240032
Killing Huntsman was never the issue. The issue was them coming back every other week with new approach.

>>55240797

>>55237068
Perhaps if you look at equal combat where both sides know the other one is there.
Mages are still human and have human weaknesses.

>>55240889
Mages have a metric ton of ways to know that other one is there - Knowing and Unveiling practices are just about that.

>>55241059
But what about non physical means? Such as your home was just condemned and all your assets are frozen.

>>55238822
Uhm, thats literally a spell in a book, and its just life. It enhances your natural pattern restoration as a mage to 1 mana for 1 health level and its reflexive to spend to heal. I think it required mastery for agg though.

>>55241096
Use time to reverse it.

>>55241514
But then it happens again.

>>55241612
Not if you kill yourself first.