Do you think he ruined fantasy?

I think every fantasy author you like ruined fantasy.

>>55226090
Not really. He'll just be forgotten when the TV show ends.

>>55226331
You need to be 18 to post on this board. ASOIAF was popular well before the show was made, and will be popular long after the fat man dies.

the only reason he's still relevant is the TV show and his really slow release schedule, if he'd done all the books within a couple of years they'd be forgotten entirely by now

>>55226354
It'll never reach the same heights, tho.

>>55226354
It wasn't. Not in the mainstream, anyway.

Anon is right. When the show ends it will quickly fall back into obscurity. I doubt the average person even cares about the books anymore now that the TV series has gone its own way.

>>55226090
No.
His works wont have big impact in the long run.

He ruined television. Robert Jordan ruined fantasy before George even got a chance.

>>55226090
He changed the fantasy market from
>LOTR ripoffs
to
>ASOIAF ripoffs
and I much prefer the latter. So no, st least in my opinion.

>>55226354
>ASOIF
>Popular
Kek

>>55226406
>made LOTR ripoffs seem original again
Good enough for me

>>55226393
>It'll never reach the same heights, tho.
I sure fucking hope it won't. Normies ruin everything, the series included.

Newfags don't remember holy wars between ASOIAF fans and Elric fans on /lit/.

>>55226090
>>55226406
Fucking this. At least the legions of shitty, lazy, uninspired copycat fantasy authors have a new formula to shamelessly rip off for the next 70+ years that isn't ELVES IN THE FUCKING FORESTS, DRUNKEN DWARVES IN THE FUCKING MOUNTAINS and ORCS JUST FUCKING ABOUT!

Overrated, he only got so far because of shock value, nothing else in his books is original or new, his prose isn't anything special either.

>>55226433
i have nightmares of normies suddenly realizing dune is the grandaddy of geo political fantasy lit and taking it mainstream

>>55226090
Fantasy was already ruined by Gygax and Tolkien, so I don't mind.

>>55226498
Jesus Christ, that's legit horrifying.

Why do people claim he ruined fantasy? I don't get it.

>>55226498
http://movieweb.com/dune-movie-remake-tv-series-legendary/
Sleep well, anon. Sleep well.

>>55226547
Because Game of Thrones is popular, and /tg/ is full of contrarians. You should have realized it already from daily DnD-bashing threads.

>>55226547
As if it wasn't already a cesspit of rancid shit with a sprinkling of mediocrity.

>>55226547
D/D ruined it, GoT started ok but the more it went the shittier it become and normies loved it even more

>>55226456
>Newfags don't remember holy wars between ASOIAF fans and Elric fans on /lit/.
Elaborate. Speaking as a Moorcockfag i don't see why i should be mad considering that GRRM and Michael are good friends.

>>55226090
Ruined? Nope.
Still he didn't do anything good for it.

>>55226664
There's always a reason to be mad, anon.
>MY favourite books is better
>No, MY favourite book is better

>>55226479
His last couple books, especially Dance with Dragons, is in dire need of an editor.
I like the plot well enough, but the prose has gotten awful.

>>55226090
He's certainly ruining this board

>>55226708
Fair nuff.
Stormbringer is still the greatest fantasy novel ever written. There are plenty others that approach it though.Those that doubt me, suck cock by choice.

It will recover

He's just some fat dork who writes mediocre books

>>55226736

GRRM banned quests?

>>55226090
I think I'm getting sick of people trying to turn every fucking game into Game of Thrones

>>55226790
No but I'm getting sick of the twice-daily GRRM threads.

A good thread died so we could have this shit instead.

>>55226550

Joke's on them, Brian and Kevin already ruined everything

>>55226815
Good threads don't end up on page 10 unless they've hit bump limit.

>>55226475
>>55226547
Yea now we have "fat people fantasy" where everything is miserable, the woman are conniving whores, food and shitting is a focus. Extreme weather patterns across samey biomes. Everything is grey or morally ambiguous because muh fantasy realism. Cringe tier pseudo-political tomfoolery.
Generic imagery because lazy: dragons, zombies, giants.
Knights who say fuck and vagina monologues. Not to mention bootstrapping languages and changing "I" to "E" and being praised as a genius for it.
Not to mention an obtuse ignorance towards fantasy as a whole to the point where tax policy autism manifests itself and makes GRRM literally retarded.

>>55226090
no, but you're definitely ruining this board

>>55226550
>Brian's quest for more money
lmao

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>>55226836

>>55226793
And you weren't sick of every game being Lord of the rings? Or that special mix of Tolkien and DnD? It's been a handful of decades by now so it must've all gotten stale in the meanwhile?

>>55226090
no. he's trying to save it.
JK Rowling ruined it.

>>55226862
At least lotr games aren't just shitty people being shitty for reasons.

>>55226090
Nope.

If fantasy can be considered ruined at all, it would be because of a feedback loop between risk averse, unoriginal creators and the watered down tastes of the bulk of consumers.

>>55226829
Nonsense, everyone knows that threads you don't like automatically knock good threads off the board.

This was an actual argument used by people who didn't like quests. Seriously.

>>55226090
No Tolkein ruined fantasy with his Marty Stu characters like Aragorn and Gandalf.

>>55226836

Why not go back to your stale Japanese JRPGs where its 95% power of the fellowship and everybody is happy while we enjoy our fatman fantasy

>>55226790
He said he was ruining the board not improving it. The exile of quests has vastly improved /tg/. The only ones who think otherwise are attention starved questfags.

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>>55226090
He certainly didn't help, bu that doesn't look like Tolkien, so no, the responsibility for ruining fantasy doesn't lie on his shoulders.

All he did was add raunchyness and grittiness to Tolkien's tradition of boring walls of plot-unnecessary overdescriptive text that the author just assumes the reader will suffer through because they have nothing better to do.

I gave up on both authors at largely the same points: put down Felowship during an unnessecary wall of text about how wholesom it was that a bunch of little peple were throwing a fireworks party, and I put down Game of Thrones during an unnecessary wall of text about how un-wholsome it was that a midget was fucking hookers.

Also, both authors created extremely boring and hyper-detailed instruction manuals on how to make the vastly superior screen versions of their worlds.

GRRM is just following in the tradition and example set by JRRT... just with more tits and sometimes he tricks you into thinking someone other than John snow is the plot-shielded protagonist to prepare for a shock-value kill. These are quirky ornamentation to the JRRT formula, not genuine innovation.

>>55226889
Look, there's two flavors of shit lazy fantasy 'authors' can try to peddle from now on. That's better than it's been in fucking decades so you won't hear any complaints from me.

>>55226896
He speaks truth!

>>55226836
>Knights who say fuck and vagina monologues.
To be fair this is not original, and has been basically happening since Shakespeare wrote the character Fallstaff.

>>55226955
>t. fat neckbeard

>>55226991
Just because you play with retards who never read books doesn't mean everyone else does.

>>55226966
Is it an idiot's guide if it's guaranteed to work every time?

D&D ruined fantasy. There are very fewLOTR knock-offs, but Forgotten Realms clones are in the hundreds if not thousands. Most of the shit tropes we see in fantasy came from Forgotten Realms.

Is this the dark age of comics for fantasy?

>>55226747
Tell me about Strombringer anon.

>>55226966
>???
You had one job, nigger. Five of them, not three.

>>55226394
Prior to show, it was about on-par with the Wheel of Time - they were the two most notable 'doorstop series' of fantasy books. However, that regard was fading fast because people were beginning to suspect he'd never get it done. He and HBO were great partners, in that respect - both are basically fading to irrelevancy without each other.
And no, he didn't ruin fantasy. Almost nobody doing fantasy is ripping him off; they're ripping off guys like Joe Abercrombie, because before the show, they were much more relevant as 'muh mature fantasy' guys. All that GoT has done is maybe fuck with the way we do historical dramas, but that's about it.

World of Warcraft kicked fantasy in the balls. It did nothing but make abunch of stereotypes of MMORPG players that's only story at the time was a teenage lich king boy vs a demon assasin elf.

>>55227275
>GRRM features a undead king guy
>also a "demon" assassin yas queen slay little girl
So you're saying GRRM ripped off warcraft. Metzen really was a genius all along.

>>55227308

No, I was actually speaking off topic.

GRRM grew up in the age of dark fantasy(conan) books. In this god damn age of Politcal correct bullshitness, GRRM's work has been a breath of relief.

Blizzard took heavy influences of D&D and Warhammer and happy mealed it to the masses for World of Warcraft.

>>55227373
>GRRM grew up in the age of dark fantasy(conan) books. In this god damn age of Politcal correct bullshitness, GRRM's work has been a breath of relief.
Lmao you're so autistic you need your fantasy to protect your fee-fees from evil sjws.

My fucking sides.

>>55226090
I think you're a shitposter.
Sorry, what else are we talking about now?

Dorne is bullshit and I hate that it exists as a relevant part of the setting.

>>55227089

This is the objective truth.

>>55227397

No you fucking retard, it's praise that it took some old fatass like GRRM to not give a shit about the shift that fantasy was taking and bringing it back to when it was hugely popular in the 70s.

HUR HUR AUTISM HUR HUR SJW's LE LULZ.

>>55226090
Nah, though I wish he'd kept with the original tone and left the stories grounded in politics and scheming, and the 'game of thrones' instead of going full Forgotten Realmstard and crammed a ton of magic and other high-fantasy bullshit into the story. He lost my interest by doing that, because now his books are just Tolkein with rape in them.

>>55227458
Lmao.
You definitely have autism if you think GRRM changed fantasy because he wrote about tits.
Read a book you dumb fuck.

Also sperging out doesn't make your argument look good.

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>>55226944

>>55226971
>sometimes he tricks you into thinking someone other than John snow is the plot-shielded protagonist to prepare for a shock-value kill
I find it interesting that people say this considering Jon gets killed in the last book.

>>55227430
Why do you have a problem with !NotArabicAndalusia! ?

Like, I have numerous problems with the man's writing style that I've ranted about in this thread, but the inclusion of a !Not[historical empire]! that's actually underused not one of them.

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>>55227502
And then resurrected... you know... like a protagonist with plot-shield.

>>55227308
>>GRRM features a undead king guy
>>also a "demon" assassin yas queen slay little girl
Neither of those things are in the books.

>>55227557
How do you know. He hasn't finished them yet.

:^)

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Fucking king neckbeard poster

>Do you think he ruined fantasy?

How the literal fuck do you "ruin" fantasy ?
Last time i checked science fiction was still doing well.
so where more exotic kinds of porn
Also kids are still playing pretend to be whatever the fuck they want.
And by the fact that automation keeps advancing we, as a race, have more and more time to spend on the fine arts and work on our own ideas and visions.

Fantasy did literally never more well than today and will be only be beaten by tomorrow.

>>55226090 and despite all of this OP still tires to fill the empty void that is his live by shitposting and begging for (you) on an anonym message board, instead of trying to take up responsibilities and contribute to society.

Also reminder, the sage function exsits and this shit should be saged to hell.

>>55227545
>literally the last chapter in adwd ends with jon getting stabbed
>showfags

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>>55227512
>Andalasia

>>55227208
>they're ripping off guys like Joe Abercrombie
Who was ripping off Martin.

>>55227584
When he comes back in the next book you should kill yourself.

>>55227584
>Smoke comming out of his stab wounds
Yeah, he's so ded

>>55227478

Aww boo hoo, the LMAoooing dumbass who diagnosis autism in ever comment somehow fantasied I wrote about GRRM changing the genre.

The "sperg" out was calling out your austism/LMAO shitposting you dumbfuck. You dense mf'er

>>55227617
>jon must be the plot armoured protagonist because [things I speculate will happen]

>>55227636
You may have mental problems.
Seek help.

I couldn't give a fuck. If the tosser can't be bothered to finish his works because he's too busy running his fingers down his stretch marks and fat rolls to find missing cheetos for lunch, it's his business.

If someone can ruin fantasy for someone else, it is (you)

>>55227512
Because Dorne survived the Targ conquest through pure plot armour. A medieval nation can't endure 3 years of having every major population center being razed by dragons. In fact, it not only survived but somehow forced notorious nutjob Aegon into a peace treaty, all without its vassals jumping ship to the Targs.

Also, how the fuck would Dorne get away with murdering a king during a sacred truce? In all seriousness, they get away with bullshit that no other kingdom would for no adequately explained reason.

>>55226836
>I never read the books

>>55226090
>Do you think he ruined fantasy?
It's been in a more or less shit position for decades so I fucking doubt it. It's hard to really make common fantasy any worse than it already is, and all he did was give more up and coming authors one more guy to rip off of besides Tolkien. That being said ASOIAF isn't bad in and of itself, and if you wanna blame anyone for ruining fantasy you should blame whatever talentless fucks end up ripping off Martin, the way you should be doing for the ones who rip off Tolkien.

Also, stop posting this shit.

>>55227753
I don't read trash.

>>55226836
Clive Barker did it all first, and much better with Imajica.

>>55227743
Since Dorne joined Aegon instead of Daenerys, I can assure you that their luck is about to run out.
You don't insert Cassandra-like figure, if everything she says doesn't come true. Ellaris is the only sane woman in the kingdom.

>>55227765

Do you have autism or something? jw

>>55227771
So you parrot the memes and shitpost.

>>55227806
Except that all happened, otherwise you wouldn't have said it didn't happen in the books.

You didn't even realize how stupid saying that was.

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>>55227584
>>55227643
>things I speculate will happen
Major plot-points happening the same in the series and the books is not "speculation." In the show he isn't resurrected to go do nothing, he goes on to participate meaningfully in many major plot-significant events.

He is, without a doubt, going to be immediately resurrected in the book just like how he was in the series. If you think otherwise, you are kidding yourself.

Isn't the price for resurrection losing one's memories and personalities bit by bit?

>>55227608
If anything, Joe Abercrombie is more like Moorcock than Martin. I get serious Elric vibes from his world.

>>55227089

Just look at the "dragons v. wyverns" arguments to see how thoroughly D&D has infected the fantasy genre.

>>55228126
People over-estimate how much importance Martin has.
He was one of several guys doing the whole 'muh realism' thing, and honestly, aside from the whole 'tax policy' line, he's way less obnoxious about it than, say, Abercrombie is. (Another tie between him and Moorcock.)

>>55228118
yes. it gets worse the more you get rezzed

>>55228215
I hate to say it, but i actually really liked Abercrombie until the end of Before They Are Hanged. Then it got retardedly self-righteous and preachy. "All banks are evil, kings are controlled by a shadow government and being royal is hell, and the evil ugly little shits of the world will always win in the end because nothing really matters just fucking kill yourself already."

ASOIAF is barely fantasy to begin with.

>>55226090
Nope, but also: >>55226097

The guy is a hack, in the classic sense. He produces more words on page for the sake of as many words on a page as possible. Unlike most hacks, he is not prolific.

Hack genre writers are a dime a dozen. The supply of them insanely exceeds the demand for them.

A TV series has the legacy of the impact that it had on a market. The stories and images are always going to be forgettable.

So indirectly, his legacy is going to be networks and producers less afraid of big-budget fantasy series. It'll be a footnote to LotR and Harry Potter, though.

So meh. He's kinda a wash.

>>55228472

is it what you would call "low fantasy"?

>>55228488
the fact that it has magic zombies automatically disqualifies it

>>55228472

I struggle to understand your point of view.

>>55228523
That's probably because it's nonsense. Of course it's fantasy.

>>55226406
>>55226475
>>55226955
The problem is that all the ASOIAF memers will far more judgemental and will accept a narrower range of fantasy.

>>55228516

Low fantasy is not low magic. Low fantasy is one filled with cynicism.

>>55226955
>my insipide cliché is better because you MUST like that other cliché if you don't like it!

>>55226405

I agree that Game of Thrones has spawned some terrible shows.

GRRM indeed killed fantasy. But what else could you expect from the dullest franchise in the history of tv franchises. Seriously each episode following Daenerys and her wyvern pals as they fight assorted shitlords has been indistinguishable from the others. Aside from the gloomy imagery, the series’ only consistency has been its lack of excitement and ineffective use of special effects, all to make magic unmagical, to make action seem inert.

Perhaps the die was cast when GRRM agreed to D&D directing the series; he made sure the series would never be mistaken for a work of art that meant anything to anybody. Just ridiculously profitable cross-promotion for his books which he will never finish before dying of fat. The GoT series might be anti-Tolkien (or not), but it’s certainly the anti-fantasy series in its refusal of wonder, beauty and excitement. No one wants to face that fact. Now, thankfully, they no longer have to.

>a-at least the books were good though
"No!"

The writing is dreadful; the book was terrible. As I read, I noticed that every time a character went for a walk, the author wrote instead that the character "dies."

I began marking on the back of an envelope every time that phrase was repeated. I stopped only after I had marked the envelope several hundred times. I was incredulous. GRRM's mind is so governed by cliches and literal shit metaphors that he has no other style of writing. Later I read a lavish, loving review of GoT by /lit/. They wrote something to the effect of, "If these kids are reading GRRM at 11 or 12, then when they get older they will go on /tv/." And they were quite right. They were not being ironic. When you read "GoT" you are, in fact, trained to be a Redditor.

>>55227193

Right? It's 'post this picture with an opinion phrased as a question' '???' 'easymeme'

>>55228593
wrong

>>55228636

It'll take some work to get the pasta to fit right but I like what you're doing.

>>55226406
This is idiotic.

The number of fantasy series that have had the exact same level of impact as Martin's, since Tolkein, is pretty huge.

Earthsea, Amber, Discworld, Wheel of Time, Harry Potter, Dresden Files, Shannara, Sword of Vomit/Truth, Elric, New Sun...

Whatever. Shitloads of them.

And they all had one thing in common (even Wolfe's): They were fantasy, not literature.

And that's why Tolkien endures.

>>55228636
>before dying of fat
He's pushing 70, he'd already be dead if his fat were killing him.

There was a time when Lord of the Rings was considered the death of literature itself. It only became popular thanks to hippies.

>>55227157
What else is there to say? It's a pillar of fantasy fiction. Possibly the best S&S story ever penned.
If you haven't read it, rectify it immediately.

A Song of Ice and Fire is the best fantasy novel serioes to come along in years. It reinvigorated the genre if anything

The problem is the producers at HBO ran out of book material because GRRM is lazy and they can't write for themselves for shit, so as soon as they outpaced the books the TV show became a mess.

btw 4chan contrarianism is a mess. Just a few years ago you could have real ASOIAF discussions on this board and most comments were positive. Then the TV show became popular and SUDDENLY the books are the worst things ever written and GRRM is a monster for daring to say that taxation thing about LOTR

>>55228693
No there wasn't. It was widely received by literary critics as a work of Literature with a capital L. Plenty thought it was boring and pretentious, but it was recognized a genuinely-worthwhile work of literature that transcended pop fiction solely by merit of the writing.

>>55226547
Because neckbeards view fantasy as their super secret special club and get mad when it becomes threatened by "normies" liking it

If any of these posters were over 14 when the LOTR movies originally came out, they'd claim the Jackson movies ruined it and REEEE about normies liking it

>>55226836
>problematic depiction of women!

lmao, horseshoe theory is real

>>55226382
so THAT'S how you make it as an author these days. get them hooked, license a tv show, and then just never finish writing.

>>55228727

I do like those fantasy novels about a medieval world where magic is coming to life or coming back again and the few lucky assholes who get to shape the world.

>>55228778
I think you're confusing the problem with Martin's portrayal of women with whatever SJW bogeyman you've invented.

That's not the problem with Martin's portrayal of women.

Go read a Sansa chapter. She wanders around feeling her budding titties brush against coarse fabric for entire fucking chapters.

The problem with Martin's portrayal of women isn't that it's politically incorrect. It's that dude is a fucking pedophile.

>>55228753

You are so wrong on it. No mainstream critic appreciated The Lord of the Rings. He was a career lingust, not a professional writer. Other descriptions include:

>"high-minded" and "death to literature itself."
>"anemic, and lacking in fiber".
>"Oh, fuck! Not another elf!"

It did not become popular or appreciated by the Mainstream until the 60s in part because of the "mellow freedom like that of the Shire."

>>55228821
Litteraly Reddit.

>>55228831
>America is the world: the post
The Hobbit was big success and people appreciated LotR when it came out as well. 60s hippie era was only really prevalent in the US.

>>55228831
Flatly incorrect.

You're confusing sales with reception. It was well recognized at release. Go ahead and read the New Yorker review.

Also you're misquoting one of the three reviews you're trying to copy out of a wikipedia page.

>>55228873
>>>/pol/

We're discussing books. Take your memes back to your adhd hellhole, please.

>>55228821
>You're a pedophile for writing fictional stories that deal with sexuality in prepubescent girls

grow up. The problem with 4chan is it can't handle nuance or the middle, it's always one thing or another.

>>55228915
He spends an inordinate amount of time discussing not their sexuality, but the curve of their budding tits and the manner in which someone kills them.

You don't have to get better than a C in Psych 101 to recognize pedophilia. It wasn't a discussion of sexuality in teens. It was an author getting off to his writing.

There is a big difference, and it isn't hard to see.

>>55228821
Well if he's a pedophile for that then Stephen King is a turbopedo for It.

>>55229060
Are you trying to imply that stephen "fuck all the little girls" king isn't a pedophile?

Imagine being this sheltered. You'd be safe from a nuclear apocalypse.

>>55227157

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnRqDsIngBo

>>55227275

We got a new Lich King and a new battle plan. We are going to clean out the regions outlying King's Landing one land at a time. Tomorrow we hit the North. After Sindragosa glasses the kingdom, Scourge mops up.

>>55229060
You are absolutely correct. And if you go check, people have been pointing that out for decades.

>>55226331
This. People who know ASOIAF are 1/10K of the people who know HBO's Game of Thrones.
Meanwhile Tolkien, Howard, Verne are still HS curriculum and Grimm keep on being rethreaded almost yearly.

>>55229286

Now hold on, we still are going to have to stomach the 1st movie and the HBO Valyria prequel with even more shitty writing for that to happen.

>>55226456
Always retarded, it was like trying to compare Black Sabbath to King Crimson.

>>55226090
>Do you think he ruined fantasy?
No author has the power to ruin a genre.

>>55226331
He is a household name that will be uttered in the same breath as Tolkien for a long time to come. The question of who is greater is going to persist.

>>55226382
Psst.... Spin-off TV Shows. Westeros is going to get milked.

>>55228939
Failed psyche and hasn't read anything martin wrote, not surprised...

>>55226547
>Why do people claim he ruined fantasy? I don't get it.
It feels good to bash something popular.

>>55226593
People love fantasy for the atmosphere.

>>55226836
>everything is miserable, the woman are conniving whores
>Everything is grey or morally ambiguous
Nothing wrong with that.
>Cringe tier pseudo-political tomfoolery
Some of it is pretty good though.
>Knights who say fuck and vagina monologues.
Nothing wrong with that.
>obtuse ignorance towards fantasy as a whole to the point where tax policy autism manifests
GRRM has a valid point in contrasting his realism with Tolkien's fairy tale-style.

>>55227775
Underrated

>>55229221

Now if only Basil Poledouris could score this.

>>55226681
He demonstrated how to cleverly set up surprises/twists (Example: Hodor), he popularized the 'nobody is safe' feeling (Example: Ned Stark), he taught how to weave a rich world and story from more characters than you can remember. Pretty sure I could add several items to that list but that should give you an idea for now.

>>55226547
Not everyone likes dark fantasy and GRRM made dark fantasy the popular thing for new fantasy novelists to write. That's all there is to it, all the people crying 'hipsters' don't have the brain cells to understand tastes.

>>55226971
>genuine innovation.
Being innovative is overrated.

>>55229527
Hodor was stupid
Killing characters is fun but then there is Dany who has incredible top tier plot armor and just walks off , as if her entire story is just filled until the moment she arrives in westeros

>>55229626
just filler*

>>55229460
>GRRM
>Realistic.
You're kidding, right?

Not to mention that if this is the infamous quote, he fundamnetally misunderstands Tolkien when he utters it, because he simultaneously sets up why Aragorn would in fact be a good king, and also that moral goodness of itself is not in and of itself a guarantee of effective monarchy, a la Theoden.

>>55229527
>set up twists
Nope. You can either see them coming miles away, or they are just 'lol random'.
>'nobody is safe'
Walking Dead did it first, but supposely comics aren't narrative in normies' eyes.
I won't go on explain why his writing is plain and boring. There are far better fantasy writers even in america pop culture.
He just went mainstream and everyone is boarding the ride. That's all.

In case you are wondering I don't like GoT and I feel like reading the books was an huge waste of time.

>>55227643
5 people are reportedly guaranteed to survive. Jon Snow is among them.

>>55228939
>You don't have to get better than a C in Psych 101 to recognize pedophilia.
You're the reason people are afraid to consult a mental health professional.

>>55226971
>put down Felowship during an unnessecary wall of text about how wholesom it was that a bunch of little peple were throwing a fireworks party
So you put down Fellowship literally at the start of the novel. You haven't even read Tolkien you hipster shit.

>>55226090
Pretty much, yeah.

>>55228154
Wyverns actually were a distinct creature in heraldry, though. They always had wing arms and a poisonous stinger. People these days just forget the stinger being necessary for a wyvern.

>>55228636
>would never be mistaken for a work of art that meant anything to anybody.
i LOL'd.

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No, but /tg/ did.

>m-muh alignments
>m-muh liches
>m-muh dragons
>m-muh demons
>m-muh point allocation system
>m-muh modularity
>m-muh non-white setting
>m-muh cuckold fetish rp system
>m-muh elbz and dworbz and orgs and hurrrrr
>*elbow bumps flash drive full of dwarf porn off the coaster*
>*autistic screeching*

>>55228675
>And that's why Tolkien endures.
If you think that Martin won't have an enduring place as fantasy's author #2, you're kidding yourself. He and Tolkien will be the benchmarks for future authors.

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>>55229817
A mark on a bench made for millipedes, I bet.

>>55226090
Not any more than Tolkien did.
Popular things always set trends, but there always will also be those that go against the trends and those that manage to do cool unique and personal takes on those trends.
No matter what, as long as fantasy is being written there will be good fantasy authors and bad and some that switch between books.

Read what you think is good, ignore what you think is bad. Life can be simple.

>>55228675
I love Tolkien, and agree with you at large, but Wolfe is just straight up a better writer than Tolkien in almost every aspect imaginable

>>55228939
>You don't have to get better than a C in Psych 101 to recognize pedophilia.
Bait.

>>55229141
Please give me your definition of pedophilia, anon.

>>55229692
A: I finished the Hobbit. It was his only readable book.

B: If a book is too boring to continue at the beginning, then it's not a good book. If you dismiss the opinion of everyone who wasn't willing to suffer through "the boring part" to get to "the good part" then by definition you're cherry-picking a pool of people who already like Tolkien's writing style.

>In B4 "Hobbit is a Children's book"
Yeah, and maybe he made some assumptions about adult readers that he didn't about children: like being able to sit through hours of monotonous haystack to find the hidden needle of actual content. Then again, that might be true of British adults if stereotypes are true.

No, but he ruined incest fetishism.

Although to be fair, the Japanese sure helped.

>>55229890
Hey, do you remember that part of It where King has all of the main characters, who are young children mind, get involved in a massive orgy together before fighting the eponymous monster?

>>55229841
I feel this is clever, but I don't understand the metaphor.

>>55226971
>>55229899
Read Children of Hurin and Farmer Gilles of Ham. LotR suffered from the lack of a competent editor

>>55229899
>If a book is too boring to continue at the beginning, then it's not a good book.
Or you don't like the writing style or subject matter. Regardless, you certainly don't know his work well enough to provide any kind of educated criticism of it like you attempted to do. You're a stranger to the series.

>>55229666
>>Realistic.
>You're kidding, right?
I generally loathe to contradict the devil but compare his works with Tolkien's fairy tale-style.

>>55226836
Tax policy autism is great though.

Here, have some more autism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izXAoKKHm4g

>>55229890
>being retarded
wew lad

>>55229918
I see you didn't reply to this guy ever.

>>55229967
It's great if you're autistic.

>>55229945
Again, if you construct opinions only from people who found him interesting enough to finish it, then you will only have an echo-chamber of other people who find him interesting. That's not critical rigor.

There are a LOT of people who started Tolkien and got too bored to finish. Granted, most gave up a good bit after I did (less than a third of the way through Tw0-Towers seems to be the most common quit-point.) This makes "his writing style is dry, boring, and hard to read" a legitimate criticism.

>>55230048
>I see you didn't reply to this guy ever.
What? I noticed him denying King's proclivities so I used a blatant example of King's fucked up mind.

>>55229960
Tolkien did not have a "fairy-tale style", he had a "mythology-and-folklore-mishsmash" style. He has two works which are actually written as fairy tales, and the early chapters of LotR deliberately follow the style

>>55229960
Honestly, I would argue that Tolkien is more realistic of the two. He at least posits reasons why things are going to shit now as opposed to a hundred years ago, which GRRM has yet to offer any compelling reason for. And when you remember that Tolkien actually introduces unreliable narration (as opposed to GRRM, who just includes presumably perfectly reliable narration of unreliable characters talking about shit), it's honeslty the more realistic of the two.

>>55229899
Oh hey, it's you again. Have you come up with how the first three lines of the Rape of the Lock are necessary yet? Are you still trying to convince people you actually hold a Master's Degree? Have you finally learned to respond to an argument?

>>55230054
You didn't even find it interesting enough to start it. With how little you read, you can easily say "I don't like it," but you absolutely do not have enough exposure to the work to be able to make an educated, universal judgement of it. You're little better than someone who never opened the book at all.

>>55230063
>Writing a murder means I'm a murderer
Fuck off.

>>55230063
I mean he didn't reply back to you after you btfo'd him.

Everyone knows SK is a pedo. Just like Charles Lutwidge Dodgson.

>>55229943
I could actually believe that. I love American Graffiti and the original Star-Wars trilogy, but once George Lucas got too big and popular to need to listen to criticism or edits from peers and studio experts, he started churning out unwatchable crap, because raw unpolished genius alone does not a masterpiece make. It would make sense that after the success of The Hobbit, he would be given more freedom from editors, creating a similar effect.

I'll look into those titles.

>>55230102
Writing a child orgy for absolutely no reason or benefit shows something is fucked up about you.

>>55226405
Lol i came here to post this

>>55228675
>Thinking Tolkien is somehow better than the others.
He wrote a fantasy travelogue as an excuse to parade around his constructed language. He's just as bad as anyone else.

The only reason he's held in such high regard is because of hippies in the late 60s wondering what Led Zeppelin was singing about.

>>55230054
You're the reason journalism went to shit.

>>55230091
So you are literally saying that only those willing to do the equivalent of literary self-flagellation and suffer through hours of dry-dry-dry text-walls are allowed to have legitimate opinions on LoTR? That's retarded. That's like saying you have to sit through an entire movie to know it's shit, and someone who walked out after the first couple scenes isn't allowed to have an opinion. That's going to skew your zeitgeist buddy.

>>55228675
>Shitloads of them
Yup, loads and loads of shit.

>>55230112
All that's shown here is that you don't understand literature and are too young to have experienced the cultural climate of the mid-80's.
That kind of thing is exactly why King became a notorious author, but you'll never get it because you became self-aware during post 9-11 america.

>>55230129
>still repeating this nonsense and trying to pass it as fact when you already got btfo'd and made to look retarded.
Stop while you're ahead.

>>55230164
Only the people who actually bothered to read it can make sweeping literary judgements of it. You can state your personal opinion on it all you like, but when you try to give actual critique? Yes, you are woefully underequipped to do so. You don't know anything about the book whatsoever. You're a game reviewer who played through the tutorial and based his score on that. That's enough to know it's not for you, but not to accurately point out the universal problems with the work.

>>55230091
Not him, and I'm on your side, but I'd say that if you don't appreciate the themes and tone of LotR in spite of its generally crude prose and pacing while being about halfway through the series, that's enough to have an informed opinion on it

You'd still miss some of the best parts, like the chapters around the Dead Marshes, Mount Doom and the Gray Havens, but if something didn't pull you in way before that it's unlikely the few ones after would do much.

>>55230178
>t. pedophile

>>55230132
How so? You should only be allowed to critique something if you already like it?

>>55230194
The guy I'm talking to wasn't halfway through the series or even the first book. He quit while reading fucking Bilbo's birthday party, and he goes on like he can judge the entire series based off of that.

>>55230194
Not the guy you're responding to, and while accusations of dryness hold merit, calling Tolkien's prose "crude" is probably not correct. The guy is enormously precise with his prose, saying exactly what he wants it to say. You might disagree with the presentation or the information he thinks is relevant to present, but trying to claim that he doesn't have firm mastery of the language, which is usually what is meant by saying crude in terms of prose, really isn't correct.

>>55230178
Explain literature for us then, o enlightened one. What's the literary value of a child orgy before fighting a monster?

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I don't think the problem is with GRRM himself but rather with the way people have held up his work as being some sort of sincere representation of medieval history, that he "tells it like it really was maaaaaan" and that "heh...this ain't Lord of the Rings, kid..."

But as
>>55230078
Tolkien is probably more "realistic", if that's even something to aim for

GRRM doesn't understand history at all. I understand that Westeros is a fantasy universe and not everything is supposed to be totally based on real life history but in broad strokes it is, and those broad strokes are horribly misrepresentative. He really buys into the whole "Dung Ages" mythology, that everything back then was abject misery and lords abused their peasants for no reason and that everyone wore brown and grey and blindly followed religion, which is something the nobility turned their noses up at and were too smart for, obviously, armies were composed entirely of peasant levies wielding pitchforks who were just churned up in a big meat grinder and having lots of gold meant you were really rich and could do whatever you want.

It's a very childish understanding of history which works okay within its own self-contained fantasy universe, but as soon as you start trying to draw comparisons to its real life equivalent, it becomes a cartoon. Only, most people don't realise that and will take it at face value as a kind of weighted response to the overly romantic ideals of the middle ages people had in the 20th century.

>>55230214
Because you looked at the cover art and said to yourself "I have a firm grasp of this book" and put it back on the shelf while sticking your thumb back up your ass.

And you're to stupid to realize that.

>>55226498
There needs to be a name for the bittersweet happiness of everything you like being too obscure for Hollywood to ruin.

I'll never get prime years Christina Hendricks starring in The Warlock In Spite of Himself or Steve Carrell in Magic Kingdom for Sale, but at the same time I won't have to endure some chubby British slag ruining The Belgariad or A Man of His Word, or watch a MYTH Inc. tv series where Skeeve hooks up with Maasha because fat acceptance.

>>55230190
>Only the people who actually bothered to read it can make sweeping literary judgments of it
So you literally ARE saying only people who liked it can make judgement. Great safe-space echo-chamber you've created where nobody will ever tell you anything you don't want to hear about your fandom. That's fucking retarded.

>>55230248
Reading the first chapter, and determining that it was literally painful to read it was so boring is not the same as "glancing at the cover art."

>>55230245
Don't forget the thousands of years of stagnation, where most people can trace some kind of connection and claim heritage to people from thousands of years ago.

>>55230256
>Only the people who actually bothered to read it
>So you literally ARE saying only people who liked it can make judgement
>bothered to read it
>bothered to read it
>bothered to read it
This person is a colossal moron.

Amazing.

>>55230194
>crude prose
This is such a meme, Tolkien had very good prose, he just got a bit stuck on the smaller details of the world that he had created, which sort of got in the way of the main story.

>>55230256
I don't think you know how critique or even reading works. To judge a book in its entirety as a literary work requires you to have actually read it. I wouldn't have even complained if you had given up at Rivendel or something. Instead, you gave up at Bilbo's party, then came up on this board to try and claim you know all the problems with Tolkien's work and the cardinal sins he committed. You don't. You didn't experience enough material to give that sort of judgement. You only experienced enough to have an opinion on whether the writing style entertained you, as one whiny individual.

>>55230267
It really is.

You're way to stupid to understand the concept though.

>>55230268
>>55230245
Or buying into the old "dude there's no way a medieval army can beat steppe horsefuckers!!!!" meme

>>55230276
Why would someone who finds it boring "bother to [finish] it." You're constructing a paradigm in which only people who like it are allowed to comment on it. You don't need to read the whole book, or watch the whole movie, or watch the whole series, or _____ the whole _______ to know a piece of media is boring.

Expecting someone to suffer through hours and hours of self-torture just to be allowed to have a dissenting opinion is ridiculous.

>>55230070
>Tolkien did not have a "fairy-tale style"
Oh, of course he did.

>"mythology-and-folklore-mishsmash" style
fairy tales are medieval folklore for children, anon.

>>55230078
>Honestly, I would argue that Tolkien is more realistic of the two.
JRRT has a fairytale-like black-and-white view of the world. GRRM has selfish political actors trying to backstab each other. Saruman is the closest to that in LOTR.

>>55230306
The Dothraki are an insult to steppe horsefuckers everywhere. Remember when he's introducing the Unsullied, and how in their big fight against the Dothraki, whomever's telling the story (I forget exactly) says that the Dothraki could have easily flanked them and shot them to ribbons with arrows, but went charging in headlong because they're stupid that way?

And how this is supposed to be a world in which pragmatic, ruthless, win at any cost people win and propser?

>>55226836
To be fair, women have been conniving whores in American fantasy ever since the no-fault divorce became possible in the 70s. In a lot of 70s and early 80s fantasy novels the guy would move heaven and earth to rescue the chick in the first book and then she'd dump them at the beginning of the second book.

>>55226874
This I have to agree with. Hardcover YA novels are the shittiest thing to ever happen to sci-fi and fantasy. Back in my day, you read children's books, you read Superfudge, you read Chronicles of Narnia, and then you moved on to adult novels. None of these samey books about teenagers in a dystopia.

>>55230294
So you literally ARE saying you have to finish the book to critique it. That's fucking dumb. Enjoy hearing only other people who love it, and thinking that's the consensus.

>>55230331
You're a moron, don't worry about it.
As they say you can't fix stupid.

>>55230332
>JRRT has a fairytale-like black-and-white view of the world.
Explain Denethor in a "fairytale like, black and white view of the world". Or Frodo for that matter.

>Saruman is the closest to that in LOTR.
Even if your statement is correct (it's not, you have plenty of other backstabbing politician types like Robin Smallburrow, Lotho Pimple, the Master of Esgaroth, etc.), the notion that including political backstabbery is what makes a work realistic is stupid.

>>55230331
Most professional literary critics actually do finish a work whether they like it or not, to give an accurate judgement of it.

>>55227208
>muh mature fantasy

God I hate that trend. Swear and put in tits and gore and RAP all you like, it won't make your work deeper on its own.

Also, recently finished the Wheel of Time. It was not worth the investment.

>>55230245
>GRRM doesn't understand history at all.
He doesn't try to give a realistic account of the middle ages. He's a fantasy author who shoplifts tropes of betrayal from the middle ages.

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>>55230350
You have a large unearned opinion of yourself and it's hilarious.
You're also terrible at debating or making a point.

Have this gif of me dancing to your stupidity. And have a nice day.

>>55230332
>Black and white morality
>What is Numenor?
>Who are the Noldor?
>Who is Boromir?
>Who is Smeagol?

>>55226405
How do you figure?

>>55227275
It ruined fantasy art at least. Nothing has any pretext of realism anymore. It's all just cartoony giant pauldrons.

>>55230256
Well, you should really have finished it- if for no other reason than to be able to critique the work in its entirety.

>>55226405
Good post.

>>55230245
>armies were composed entirely of peasant levies

Was not that the case? Small bunch of elite warriors (Knights) with less well trained levies.

>>55227157
Read the articles on Wikipedia on Elric od Melnibone and the sword Stormbringer. It's like someone is taking the piss, but it's actual books.

>>55230352
You've constructed a paradigm in which
>LoTR is too damn boring to finish; it's fucking painful
which BTW is a widely held opinion, is literally impossible because
>If you find LoTR too boring to finish, you can't make an informed judgement
>Therefore anyone who's judgement is that LoTR is too boring to finish isn't informed.
That's circular as fuck, and engineered to protect your safe-space. LoTR is boring autistic garbage.

>>55230415
Professional mercenaries were really popular, especially in Central Europe.

>>55230336
>Why would someone who finds it tasteless "bother to [eat] it." You're constructing a paradigm in which only people who like it are allowed to comment on the food. You don't need to eat the whole meal, or taste all the ingredients, or try the sides, or _____ the whole _______ to know a plate of is nasty.
Expecting someone to suffer through self-torture just to be allowed to have a dissenting opinion is ridiculous

You dont have to try it to k ow you dont like it, but to critique the techniques used you do actually have to experience what is made. You cant judge a meal based on if it has potatoes or not, you cant judge a painting by the canvas used, and you cant judge prose you've never read.

>>55230386
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aB6CPyO0Ww

>>55230424
I like how you ignore everyone replying to you except the guy who just calls you an idiot.

>>55230424
>t. hot take after 1 chapter guy
lmao

>>55230404
>Critique stabbing yourself in the anus with an ice-pick for 72 hours straight if you've finished the entire 72 hours
Sorry buddy, that's bullshit. I think giving it a chapter's worth of a chance to become interresting is more than fair.

/tg/ contrarianism at worse int his thread. "Tolkein is a better representation of history", lmao.

Tolkein basically made a english version of the Odyssey, it's a myth and the characters have very little substance to them. GRRM is an exaggeration of history and seeks to use human logic/actions for why things are.

>>55230241
The orgy is after they defeat it, not before. Childhood was the most obvious and important theme of the book. It's an extremely ham-fisted and displeasing way of showing that their innocence, the only real weapon they had, was finally spoiled by their experiences, and they have to grow up in order to be able to go on. They then forget most of their childhood, and don't remember it until years later when they have to go back to Derry

>>55230454
You're wrong.

>>55230457
Okay, so King injected his fetish as a hamfisted and unnecessary way to show the loss of innocence rather than use a clearer and better device. So that means he is either a shock-writing hack with no talent, or he put it in because it got his willy hard, which with all the other weird shit involving kids in his novels, seems all the more likely.

>>55230429
>You dont have to try it to k ow you dont like it, but to critique the techniques used you do actually have to experience what is made. You cant judge a meal based on if it has potatoes or not, you cant judge a painting by the canvas used, and you cant judge prose you've never read.
Did the first, incredibly dry chapter not contain any prose? Was it all pictures. If we're to continue with your food metaphor, if you go in for a five course meal, and the first course tastes like such piss that you walk out, that's a legitimate criticism. Yeah, MAYBE the later courses were brilliant, but if they were made by the same shitty chef, it's not worth eating an entire meal to find out.

>>55226090
No. By all rights his work should be adored here. fa/tg/uys only hate ASOIAF because reeee normies

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>>55230447
>You need to finish the bucket of shit before you can say it tastes like shit.

>>55230091
Not him, but myself and both my brothers all quit Fellowship at the stupid fucking fireworks, and we've been reading fantasy since the early 80s.

I think one of them finally pushed himself hard enough to get midway into Two Towers before giving up.

>>55230510
No, we hate ASOIF because it's every shittily constructed worldbuilding game we've ever played in, only in this case you can't point out to the GM how bad a job he's done.

>>55227850
(you)

>>55227089
This.

>>55230359
>>55230386
All these characters only exist within the context of the struggle of good versus evil. There is the possibility that ASOIAF/GOT could turn out the same way with the White Walkers invasion. But before it was largely about nearly everyone being selfish - which resonates way more with people's experiences in life than the multitude of essentially noble (even when flawed) characters we read about in LOTR.

>>55230394
I would rather lay the blame at its root: Games Workshop. WoW just catalysed it.

>>55230184
I'm not that other guy. I just really fucking hate people sucking Tolkien's dick.

>>55228420
Couldn't get into Abercrombie because of it. The "twists" are telegraphed to hell and back because it just drips off the page that he's chomping at the bit to S U B V E R T all these silly fantasy tropes.

>>55230500
Man, I've never seen you or met you but nased off the several shitposts you've made in this thread I know for a fact that you're a 400 lb ham beast who doesnt have any teeth left and spends his free time fonsling children at his local Burger King. You smell like fetted dishwater and i gag whenever I think of your grease coated goiter. These are all obviously true statements about you that I have been able to make due to being subjected to a very limited exposure of you. I should honestly call the cops before you molest more children.

>>55230525
If you want to write a competent review or have people take your critique seriously? Yea it's usually a good idea to actually read the source material you dunce.

>>55230546
Sounds like a personal problem brought on by edgy teenagerism.

>>55230527
Here's my point. You can accurately say you don't like the work from that. I'm not begrudging him that. What I'm complaining about is his attempt to make a sweeping judgment of the LoTR trilogy as a literary work, like he knew the ins and outs of Tolkien's world and writing, all when he didn't even read anything more than a few pages.

>>55230429
>Expecting someone to suffer through self-torture just to be allowed to have a dissenting opinion is ridiculous
No, it's not. If you love reading and something is a major work in a genre you care about, it's not unreasonable to expect you to read it from start to finish, even if it's not your cup of tea.

>>55230214
You should be allowed to comment on anything you want and get ignored like the nobody that you are.
You don't get to critique and expect your critique to have any academic merit if you didn't study the object of your critique intently.
The problem is today nobodies want to have the merit of critics without doing the work.

>>55230545
>People's experience resonates better with everyone killing and raping each other or having dogs rape them.
Uh huh. When's the last time you left your basement?

>>55228831
>"Oh, fuck! Not another elf!"

Yes, at the time LOTR came out you couldn't swing a six-foot mythril sword without bumping into an elf. Right?

>>55230415
Most soldiers in the later middle ages were professional soldiers
Most soldiers in the earlier middle ages were warrior aristocrats
There was a little bit of levying going on here and there but I'd hesitate to say it was ever the majority

Like everything it depends on when and where you mean. In medieval Ireland for instance all adult men in a sept were required to know how to fight and be ready for the call to arms from their King at any time, so you could make that go either way.

>>55230268
Even Wheel of Time is better than that, since national borders have changed dozens of times in the history of the series and they aren't even still using the same calendar started after the "breaking".

Hell, even David Eddings is better than that, considering there's an undead army in the Tamuli that loses because the resurrected corpses are still using bronze weapons and fighting knights in plate.

>>55230551
Exactly! I got suckered in because Logan is actually really well written and I got invested heavily into him and his crew but then after book one he hets on a soapbox and is like "Now that all the bullshit is out of the way let me tell you what i REALLY think!" He even sets up really nice plot points and interesting history, like who the witch is thats helping King Doucheface, what really happened during Kaneidias's (SP?) with Juvens, and ehat is the REAL cost of magic. Then he hand waves it all and is like "nah but fuck banks though."

>>55230452
Well, it's your life but it makes me question your enthusiasm for reading fantasy literature, if you can't read through the most significant work of the genre. People read through boring textbooks to learn more about a subject they are interested in. If you can't read through Tolkien to be fully in the know about LOTR, what does that say about you?

>>55230545
>All these characters only exist within the context of the struggle of good versus evil.
No they don't.

>here is the possibility that ASOIAF/GOT could turn out the same way with the White Walkers invasion.
That's not even what they're called in the books. And in any case, the Manichean struggle of good vs evil does not mean that character development is only to support such. In fact, LoTR directly opposes that concept, which is why you have those chapters after the destruction of the Ring and especially the Scouring of the Shire.

>But before it was largely about nearly everyone being selfish - which resonates way more with people's experiences in life than the multitude of essentially noble (even when flawed) characters we read about in LOTR.
You must not have read either book very carefully. We have more than just people being selfish (except the Starks, the Tulleys, Danerys, Daneyrs's friends, and probably some others I'm forgetting), they're also pointlessly and colossally idiotic to the point of barely being able to fend for themselves, totally at odds with the own zeitgeist of their world.

Take Sansa; pretty much her entire character arc is going from the spoiled little girl who thrives on tales of chivalry to find out how the world really works. But this is a setting win which through all of recorded history, the nice guys ALWAYS finish last, and it's the quick and the brutal who win. Why the fuck do they tell tales of chivalry to begin with? Why are those the values that culturally resonate, and the ones they seek to inculcate in children? The only answers you can come up with point to GRRM not understanding how a world develops, or just not giving a shit.

And Tolkien has plenty of people who are selfish and ignoble in word and deed, you've got a lot of them in the Shire and in Bree. You've got the Woses, and the interactions implied to happen between the Rohirrim and Gondorians and the Woses.

>>55230525
False equvalency.

>>55230241
In case you haven't noticed, Stephen King doesn't go in the "wholesome lectures for prude christians of all ages" section of libraries. He's a shock author for the heroin-ODing 80's and he found the most disgusting way to write a "death of innocence" scene just for you to entirely miss the point because you're a millenial coward and a faggot.

>>55230600
Same in England, really. Every adult male was expected to be a trained archer so they could serve as auxiliaries if need be.

>>55230582
That portion was supposed to be greentext maling fun of him, i fucked up because im a shitty phone posting nignog

>>55230557
>>55230580
>>55230447
>>55230438
>>55230404
>>55230378
>>55230363
>>55230352
>>55230294
>>55230248
>>55230190
>>55229945
The TWO chapters of inane bullshit that ammounts to nothing account for over 2200 words. That's longer than many short stories, and more than enough to make a critique of the qualities that already show up: such as dry boring writing style.

>>55230653
So you're saying he's a talentless hack.

>>55230054
You are qualified to make exactly one criticism, that the beginning of Fellowship was too slow for you. You have no grounds to say anything else about the books.

>>55230665
>2200 words
This is a lot for you? Motherfucker, you should be writing papers longer than that within a day or two for your fucking courses.

>>55230332
>JRRT has a fairytale-like black-and-white view of the world.
I wonder if people think that if they repeat this enough it'll eventually become true.

>>55230490
Just to clarify, I'm not the guy you were first arguing with
>fetish
>because it got his willy hard
No
>shock-writing
Yes
>hack with no talent
Sort of

King himself has admitted that if he can't find a way to horrify the readers, he tries to disgust them instead. That's basically all the explanation you need for why he decided to use a child orgy to show the Loser's loss of innocence. While he could have used a better device, there wasn't much room for him to be CLEARER. He was brutally, viscerally clear. It was very likely intended to be revolting.

If you want to see someone who actually does come off as a pedophile through his writing (even if I doubt he actually was) read Lolita. It's pretty much unavoidable to think that Nabokov may have gotten his rocks off to it at times

>>55230693
Haven't you been following the thread? It's perfectly acceptable to critique JRRT without having read him, and to say otherwise means you're a douchebag.

>>55226090
fantasy cannot be ruined.

however, fucktwits bitching out how fantasy has been ruined can make it harder to enjoy fantasy.

>>55230665
A whole 2200 words!?
Jesus christ the inhumanity. The jews in aushwitz got off light compared to that TORTURE. My god.

You brave soul.

>>55230665
So what was chapter 3 about and give some examples of your critiques of it. Oh, wait, youve literally never seen it and can't make a value judgement. Nigger, nobody here is saying you cant dislike LoTR, but you cant fucking sit here and pretend to be fucking Socrates if you've never actually read past Chapter 2. I've never been to Chicago, from what i know its a pretty shitty city, but im not over here critiquing its road system like i know shit about it, ya feel me?

>>55230490
I'm starting to think the only one who found the orgy erotic was you.

>>55230626
>If you can't read through Tolkien to be fully in the know about LOTR, what does that say about you?
That, like many others, I find his writing style WAAAAY too boring to get through.

Also.... you are aware that in 2017 there is this lovely thing called the internet, full of information that's already been extracted from the boring prose it used to be encased in... right? You don't have to actually finish LoTR to be familiar with LoTR through the cultural Zeitgeist now. I've never seen Risky Business, but I know when someone is doing an homage to the underwear dancing scene from Risky Business.

>>55230709
/thread

>>55230741
>b-b-but i read about it on r-r-r-reddit!!!

Literally fuck yourself

>>55230245
Well said, dude.

>>55230736
Yes anon, anyone who recognizes a problem with King must secretly be that problem themselves.

>>55230671
He's got you quaking in your pussyfoot shoes 30 years after the fact. He's a pretty competent horror author at that.

>>55230741
>You don't have to actually finish LoTR to be familiar with LoTR through the cultural Zeitgeist now.
So you don't actually have your own opinions, you just ape that of others? And you pretended to have a single brain cell at all?

>>55230736
Calm down Stephen.
Don't touch the girls.

>>55230770
He's just got me doubting his character. I read way more fucked up shit than that scene in doujins every day.

>>55230673
>too slow for you
Another way of saying dry and boring relative to the modern reader
>hat the beginning of Fellowship
If the beginning is boring, than only people willing to tolerate boredom during their recreational time will get through it. This is indeed a legitimate criticism.

>>55230677
>>55230729
I didn't say that was inordinately long, I said that it was enough to make a judgement about the writing style of the author: dry and boring. Had I trudged through the entire book in some self-flagellating fervor to prove some point then maybe, but why the fuck would I do that? Why would any sane person continue to spend time on recreational media that they don't find recreational?

>>55230731
Did I make a value judgement specific to chapter 3? No I made a value judgement about Tolkien's writing style, which was already apparant from the first 2 chapters.

>>55230597
Sigh. The subject is selfishness, not sexual deviancy.

>>55230641
>No they don't.
Okay.

>>55230641
>And in any case, the Manichean struggle of good vs evil does not mean that character development is only to support such.
I didn't say that. I said that the characters only exist within that context. There is good and evil. And essentially noble characters can have flaws but they are still good at the core. Or noble characters can become corrupted at which point they're lost - unless there is a small hope for redemption. But it all takes place within the context of this struggle of good vs evil.

>which is why you have those chapters after the destruction of the Ring and especially the Scouring of the Shire.
Remnants of evil.

>We have more than just people being selfish
On overstatement of mine, for sure. Jesus, don't be so literal.

>just not giving a shit.
It's this.

>And Tolkien has plenty of people who are selfish and ignoble in word and deed, you've got a lot of them in the Shire and in Bree.
The Sackville-Baggins aren't evil though. Not if you compare them with the enemy.

You make the mistake of focussing on specific characters instead of the overall picture. Tolkien is good versus evil. Early Martin is dog-eat-dog world. Tolkien is: Man (Hobbit) is fundamentally good. Early Martin is: Man is fundamentally selfish (and cares only about whoring or drinking).

>>55230789
I know man a whole 2200 words would exhaust any erudite mind 100%.

>>55230767
You insist it was wanking material while everyone else is calling it horror.
That means you considered wanking to it.

>>55227743
The Dornish killed Rhaenya and her dragon Meraxis. Probs got lucky, but Aegon said fuck no after that and no one after him bothered to try for a long time.
The next time the Targaryens tried to conquer Dorne was Daeron I who had no dragons, so he got beaten by Gorilla warfare.

Ultimately, I think the l Dornish got a really lucky kill and proceeded to spoke the dynasty for 100 years

>>55230803
But by your own admission the horror was over by the time of the orgy.

Unless you're mormon and consider sex horrific or something.

Either way you're a stupid.

>>55230779
Wouldn't have a reason to doubt his character if you weren't rendered perpetually uncomfortable about it.

>>55230415
Not really. It was mostly professional levies (like knights) with hired mercenaries to fill out the ranks. The hordes of peasants only got involved in the really big important wars, because if you get all your peasants butchered, you're fucked come winter and the next year.

>>55230825
Or maybe I just noticed a pattern and pointed it out.

>>55230772
>So you don't actually have your own opinions
Relative to my own experience in a vacuum, the first two chapters were far too boring to bother continuing without some sort of outside incentive. Now, theoretically, maybe his writing style magically changes after the first two chapters to become something completely different to what he establishes in the beginning: what the internet allows me to do is to confirm that he doesn't without me actually having to read on, and to be aware of the tropes and traditions put in place without having to read any more of the godawful text.

>>55230789
So then you openly admit to not knowing anything about the rest of the series, let alonw the rest of the book, and that you literally can't make a judgement about it other than, based on a small sample, it isnt for you. Glad you owned up to it, just surlrised it took this long.

>>55230836
You can't make your own literary critique using the words of others, anon. That's plagiarism.

>>55229524
If only Basil could score everything

>>55230823
>But by your own admission the horror was over by the time of the orgy.
You don't understand the book. Are you the same guy who couldn't deal with 2200 grueling words?

Is /ic/ illiterate?

>>55230796
>I didn't say that. I said that the characters only exist within that context. There is good and evil.
And you are wrong about that, because the characters do in fact exist outside that context. The ultimate context is that of the Hobbits and their anachronistic little totally not middle class rural Britain dumped right next to a dark ages fantasy setting, and looking at the contrasts. If anything, the EPIC STRUGGLE OF GOOD VS EVIL is there to highlight that, not the other way around.

>Remnants of evil.
No, the climax of the work; you now have, for the first time, the Hobbits completely on their own, trying to fix something without elves and dwarves and rangers and wizards to run to if things go wrong.

>It's this.
It's still unrealistic, just a product of lazy writing rather than pure ineptitude.

>The Sackville-Baggins aren't evil though. Not if you compare them with the enemy.
I didn't say they were evil. I said they were ignoble. Which you are the one trying to point out the distinction between.

>Tolkien is good versus evil.
And you are wrong to say this.

>Early Martin is dog-eat-dog world.
Well yes, but he does it to such an extent that the world cannot feasibly exist. I don't even think this is entirely accurate; I'm betting he's more trying to shock readers by subverting the normal fantasy tropes rather than to present a coherent world.

>Tolkien is: Man (Hobbit) is fundamentally good
AHAHAHAHA what? If that were the case, Frodo wouldn't have failed at the cracks of doom.

>>55230798
What the fuck are you talking about? I said it's enough of an indicator of writing style that there's no reason to continue unless you like the style that has been shown.

However, now that you mention it, it COULD be exhausting if you keep having to re-read entire paragraphs because it was so boring you forgot what you just read.

>>55230835
Maybe you need to stop thinking about children before someone calls Hansen.

>>55230860
>2200 words guy.
I'm not a pedophile, so obviously not that guy.

>>55230803
I think anyone putting in needless sexuality is getting off on it, because it makes sense for them to do it otherwise unless they're edgy teenage hack writers.

>>55226433
>Normies ruin everything
I wish this was just a 4chan meme, but it so consistently proves itself to be true

>>55230823
>But by your own admission the horror was over by the time of the orgy.
He's not me and I've been waiting for a (You) in the post I actually wrote for 15 minutes

>>55230868
Don't worry 2200wordsguy. I know that's a whole lot of words and could be pretty tough for you to digest.
I mean shit that's like a entire highschool essay!
Calm the fuck down!

>>55226090
No author can ruin a genre. As trendsetters go, I may not like the trends he's set, going for the gritty grimderp body count but the pendulum swing between optimistic and pessimistic fiction (overall or in a given genre) is as old as written literature. So I guess I'm of the opposite opinion to >>55226406 where I'd rather keep with the LotR ripoffs rather than ASOIAF for our shovelware. 'course I'd rather not indulge in literary shovelware.

In general, I think he's overhyped. If not for HBO's rendition of his work, it would be no better among normies known than Chronicles of the Black Company or Elric of Menibone, a sharp contrast with authors that exhibited genuine brilliance like Tolkien, Asimov, and Verne; their works may have been flawed (Tolkien's prose isn't exactly the most riveting, for instance) but they all had something they did that was timeless and worthwhile

>>55230871
>Nuh uh, you're the fucked up one!
Christ, King. Own up to your shit, they can't punish you for thought crimes. Yet.

>>55230836
>Relative to my own experience in a vacuum, the first two chapters were far too boring to bother continuing without some sort of outside incentive.
This is a fair assestment and the only opinion on the books you're entitled to hold.
Everything else is verbiage on ignorance.

>>55230838
>it isnt for you
This is a very narrow and straw-man-ish take on a legitimate criticism of writing style as dry and boring, especially given that it's one shared by so many (lots of people couldn't finish LoTR)

>>55230905
There's also a lot of very stupid people in the world. I'm glad you chose which camp to pitch your tent in.

>>55230905
Lots of people could, and it's to this day one of the best selling works of fantasy, maybe even the best selling. What about all of their opinions? Do they not matter because they don't align with the great anon who only reads 2 chapters?

>>55230873
>I'm not a pedophile
You're awfully worried about proving that.
Maybe you should tell us where you live so we can call the local child protection services.

>>55230875
>>55230890
Really dude, stop thinking about kids like that.

>>55230941
>Being this defensive and desperate.
Calm down buddy, no one's coming for your hard drives yet.

Don't make it so obvious that you want to diddle kids.

>>55230952
You have to stop, King. You look like you're in denial at this point. "No u!" is never a convincing argument.

>>55230894
Yeah, because an entire internet full of readers who similarly couldn't stomach his writing style means nothing

And a slew of pre-tolkien-popularity authors who make constant attempts to entertain and maintain the interest of their readers, (Vance, Howard, Burroughs, Moorcock, to name a few,) compared to a modern author pool that's full of wannabee Tolkiens, parroting his style and tendency to vomit out walls of dry text about inane bullshit under the assumption that their authors will just trudge through it means nothing.

Nigga please.

>>55231001
>wannabee Tolkiens
Like who?

>>55231001
> an entire internet full of readers who similarly couldn't stomach his writing style means nothing
Show me this so called internet full of readers.

Cause even in this thread people are calling you out for being retarded. While you rage against the machine all on your lonesome.

>>55230934
>What about all of their opinions? Do they not matter because they don't align with the great anon who only reads 2 chapters?
Did I say there weren't people out there who can sit through the dry walls of text that authors GRRM and JRRT mass-produce? No. I said there is a large contingent of people who find their style way too boring to stomach.

File: 1476845801549.png (755KB, 767x720px) Image search: [Google]

755KB, 767x720px

>>55231009
Me.

>>55231001
Most of those names aren't pre-Tolkien, and you're stupid as shit if you don't think that Tolkien, nor modern fantasy "wannabee Tolkiens" don't want to entertain their audience. You just happen to differ on what is entertaining.

>>55231001
To be fair there are plenty of vomited walls of text before Tolkien, too. Some of it is even kind of cool. See: E.R. Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros. Or if you want brilliant ideas deep fried in impenetrable verbiage and cringe, William Hope Hodgson's The Night Land.

>>55231009
Go to the fantasy section of any bookstore. Literally walls of them.

>>55231001
>reeee stop saying my opinion means nothing
It does. You're not a literary critic. You have an opinion, but your opinion is completely lacking in weight or authority.

You don't like Tolkien.

Cry some more. Eventually you'll grow up and understand that doesn't mean other people don't get to disagree and that absolutely nothing had entirely possitive or entirely negative effects in culture.
>>55230967
>>55230956
Go back to /a/ you bunch of pedos

>>55231056
Not an argument, anon. I need names. Most writers I know of are on the dark fantasy train right now.

>>55226405
Ah yes, the 30 billion page epic with only two characters for each sex - The Good One and the Bad One

>>55231032
Why do you tell transparent, stupid lies when we can read your previous posts and call you out on them?

Why do you assume that people don't actually enjoy Tolkien, or GRRM? That they don't share your opinion that they are "dry walls of text"? Are you willing to concede their opinions are just as good as yours?

>>55230866
>>Remnants of evil.
>No
Yes.

>I didn't say they were evil. I said they were ignoble. Which you are the one trying to point out the distinction between.
Their selfishness knows ethical limits unless corrupted by evil. Selifshness does make more susceptible though. Selfish people might slander other people but don't engage in mass murder.

>AHAHAHAHA what? If that were the case, Frodo wouldn't have failed at the cracks of doom.
How does this make him not fundamentally good?

>>55231060
>Go back to /a/
>Implying you don't browse /a/
I bet your home is full of figs, Stephen.

>>55230967
>Stephen King trying and failing to argue on /tg/
This mental image amuses me to no end

>>55231009
GRRM
Goodkind
Robert Jordan
Paolini
Mercedes Lackey

>>55231023
>4chan is a representative non-autistic sample of anything but 4chan
k

>>55231087
>GRRM
He defines himself as the complete opposite of Tolkien, you nonce.

>Paolini
Eragon is a copy of the Dragonriders of Pern and Star Wars. Seriously, is the only fantasy writer you know of Tolkien? Is everything his fault to you?

>>55231070
>Yes.
Seriously, no.

>Their selfishness knows ethical limits unless corrupted by evil. Selifshness does make more susceptible though. Selfish people might slander other people but don't engage in mass murder.
I'm not even sure what you're aiming for at this point. There are plenty of ignoble characters in Tolkien, especially the ones who are supposed to be more akin to the readers, and your statement that it is generally a work of noble figures doing things alien to a modern reader is incorrect.

>How does this make him not fundamentally good?
Because fundamentally, he's a failure, (in an ignoble way), and succumbs to his inner demons, the lust for power and his willingness to enter into the minds of others. He set out to do one thing, and he couldn't do it. He was saved by an external force, either a pure deus ex machina, or the result of him using the evil power of the ring to lay a compulsion on a thoroughly pitiable figure, depending on how much weight you put on those two scenes where he tells Gollum that to touch the ring is to invite his destruction. In either case, his goodness is broken and tarnished by the end of it, and the failure of such is one of the primary reasons he needs to go to Valinor, and die there.

>>55231087
I am so glad Goodkind and Paolini largely faded from conciousness. I'd say Jordan too but I think he's still casting a shadow.

>>55230415
Fucking /tg/, what the fuck, no

>>55231100
He can define himself however he likes. Doesn't change anything. Adding tits and swearing doesn't make anything meaningful or mature.

>>55231062
>Most writers I know of are on the dark fantasy train right now.
The darkness or lightness of the setting neither necessitates nor negates to the dry, boring, and overwritten writing style to which I am referring.

I would cite many of those "on the dark fantasy train" as boring "wannabe Tolkiens"

>>55231134
Yeah? But I'm still not seeing anything in his work remotely like Tolkien.

>>55231145
He uses WORDS anon. And he's not writing a short story. SO HE'S LIKE TOLKIEN! DON'T YOU GET IT?!

>>55231142
Oh hey, you're the guy complaining about Bilbo's birthday switching to a different subject rather than replying to the people castigating you.

>>55231123
The only memory of Paolini I have is from school when kids were bragging about how fast they finished the latest book. Plus that godawful movie

>>55231100
>GRRM
>He defines himself as the complete opposite of Tolkien

If that's what he wants to be, though, he's kinda bad at it. He's more Tolkien's "Evil" twin or freaky Doppelganger; different on a few important notes while identical on most other notes.

The real opposite of Tolkien would be someone like KA Applegate; Light and fluffy, driven to entertain rather than to create "Quality" but with a cynical edge and a willingness to show characters in shades of gray and noble characters degrading in realistic ways as they fail to live up to their ideals.

>>55231100
>[GRRM] defines himself as the complete opposite of Tolkien, you nonce.
His self definition doesn't change his writing style, which is just as full of dry walls of text a Tolkien. He gave it an edgy paintjob, but that doesn't change the core.

>>55231100
>Eragon is a copy of the Dragonriders of Pern and Star Wars.
One that is full of dry overwritten prose... just like the standard Tolkien established.

>>55230078
>Tolkien introduces unreliable narration while Martin does not

You are either retarded, did not read either of the works, or did so without close scrutiny and attention. Either way, you're not fit to comment on this.

>>55231175
Please. Applegate is shit. My god, those almost entirely empty pages in The One and Only Ivan? Exist purely to pad out the book, you could have taken the text and printed it for at least a fifth of the volume. And most of it is meaningless characterization, with endless repetition of the same words over and over again. Yes, you're a fucking gorilla, you live in a zoo, it sucks. We get it.

Talk about endless wasting of space.

>>55231175
>Light and fluffy
Man you sure haven't read the later Animorphs books.

>>55231188
See >>55231153