>I want to play as a grey jedi!

>>55224095
>Star Wars
Found your problem

>okay sorry Johnny, I misheard, you can be a gay jedi.

>>55224095
Sure. You want to be a Duros, Pau'an or maybe a rattataki jedi?

>>55224095
They're actually canon though

>>55224173
So are midichlorians.

>>55224299
Can one play as midichlorians?

>>55224299
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baJ_cOzOOfI

>>55224173
>grey Jedi according to the lore
>slightly unorthodox by the rigid standards of the Order

>grey Jedi according to wankers
>Mary Sues who can wield both sides because "hurr, why can't I use Force Lightning for good, muh Kreia"

>>55224373
Nonono, you don't understand, Rebels made the second canon, there're a faction that is literally "no sides in the Force just use what you want lol" and they were painted as the faction that is right

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>>55224331
My character, Amo'eba, is the powerhouse of the Jedi Council.

>>55224373
>Have not followed canon recently
I think you don't understand what the new canon is trying to accomplish

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>>55224402
>>55224373

>Rebels made the second canon, there're a faction that is literally "no sides in the Force just use what you want lol" and they were painted as the faction that is right

Why is Moorcock's Law and Chaos doing in my Star Wars?
And why, unlike in the former, does it sound so fucking retarded?

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>>55224095

>>55224439
Because Star Wars is Good vs Evil. The Dark Side isn't Chaos, it's Satan, the One Ring and meth rolled into one. By changing that, you retroactively make the Original Trilogy meaningless.

Moorcock's work has a punk ethos, the "right way" is in self-determination. Star Wars is intentionally naive and draw on fairy tales by way of Campbrell with objective morality. Evil only exists to tempt, threaten and corrupt the characters, it's not a faction with legitimate arguments.

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>wants to be a grey jedi instead of a grey knight

kys

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>>55224522
>Because Star Wars is Good vs Evil
Not anymore faggot

>>55224551
Shove your cartoon up your ass. There's still a clear distinction between the jedi (good guys) and evil psychos with red lightsabers (bad guys) in the movies.

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>>55224568

The cartoon is canon, get over it.

>I'm going to play as a light side sith

>>55224373
Luke used force choke way before anything you mentioned

Only if you accept that you will be called a Gredi Jedi, with both words having a soft i so that they rhyme with ready.

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10,000 hours

>>55224568
The sith philosophy makes a lot more of sense than the jedi code

>>55224414
I don't hate this, please give more backstory.

>>55224522
>>55224568
>>55226026
The Jedi are literally based on Taoism, the term light side isn't even in the original trilogy. The second "Dark Side" went from a way of using the force and became a literal evil god is where shit started becoming retarded.
>>55226026
This is also a problem, your villains on paper sound more reasonable then your heroes, and yet they're all eventually babypunchers because LOLCORRUPTION.

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>>55226026
"Might makes right" is not a philosophy, it's how niggers solve arguments.

>>55226240
"Might makes right" is a pretty shallow interpretation of the sith code. You could also say it preaches channelling your emotions constructively rather than denying them.

>>55226311
>You could also say it preaches channelling your emotions constructively rather than denying them.
You could say all kinds of shit, but that's not how the Sith do.

>>55226369
The problem is the difference between theory and practice.
In theory, the Sith are pretty alright folks who just view the Force differently.
In practice, Sith means antagonist means puppy-kicking cartoon villain.

>>55224095
Gray Jedi CAN be done well, but they're usually not. The only time I ever ran Star Wars, the gray Jedi guy outright admitted that he though being a gray Jedi meant he could use Sith powers without having to deal with the Dark Side.
I mean, if you want to explore the morality of using the dark side for altruistic purposes, and in doing so walk the thin line between light and dark, then that's excellent, but 99% of the time they just want to use Sith lightning with no consequences.

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>>55224095
>not grey sith

>>55226458
It's the same problem with the Jedi Order, desu. In theory, they're a consummate good - promoting a selfless ideology, dedicating their lives to altruistic work, and constantly exerting self restraint in the face of unlimited power.

In practice, they stifle individuality and free expression through rigid adherence to tradition, and they frequently fall short of their goals by refusing to acknowledge their own humanity.

>>55226920
It's almost like the problem with ideologies is that they're ideal and fail due to human failings.

>>55226920
>>55226458
It has to do with the origins of the Force users in the EU.

The Sith served the race of true sith as warriors and elite guards. the Jedi arose to try and challenge them. The problem is that use of negative emotion can be turned against you by the sith. So the jedi channeled and controlled their emotions so that the sith couldn't use that as a weapon against them. The resulting war ended the rule of the true sith, scattered the sith lords, and left the jedi with a bunch of power and literally nothing to do with it.

Sith lords tend to want a return to power, jedi hang around waiting for sith lords to show up. They turned themselves into a semi-police force looking for sith lords and investigating situation that the sith might have been involved in. After a couple hundred years both sides devolved into a self involved peacekeeping force and a bunch of edgy tryhards.

>>55224173
No, actually, they're not. "Gray Jedi" are not a thing except in Legends

There are factions who use the Force in different ways, but they are not Jedi.

>>55227141
Bendu and Ashoka Tano seem to differ

Also even in legends Jolee Bindo the Gray Jedi by excelence, wasn't a Jedi anymore

>>55224095
consider that most Jedi are a bunch of self righteous cunts whom lack the ability to display emotion because of "mah wisdom" and shun violence yet constantly got evolved in wars.
Also consider that most Sith are a bunch of retarded power hungry psychopaths.

Now there is this new player whom wants to be a force user because he likes the movies yet has gotten tired of the never ending memery of both factions and just wants to play his/her own thing.

Can you really blame the player for not wanting to be a Jedi or Sith and just play his own special snowflake ?

>>55227188
Bendu was never a Jedi in the first place, so "gray Jedi" is a complete misnomer for him.

Ahsoka is explicitly no longer a Jedi. She left the Jedi behind nearly two decades prior to her appearance in Rebels, and as such has been "not a Jedi" for longer than she was actually a Jedi.

>>55227252
>he thinks Grey Jedi means Jedi
Again, Jolee Bindo, the grey Jedi by excellence in previous EU wasn't a Jedi either

>The term Gray Jedi, or Gray, had two meanings. First, it was used by Jedi and Sith to describe Force-users who walked the line between the light and dark sides of the Force without surrendering to the dark side, and second, it described Jedi who distanced themselves from the Jedi High Council and operated outside the strictures of the Jedi Code

It wasn't just a Jedi. Is like the term Dark Jedi, guess what, they weren't Jedi

>>55227315
>Jedi in the name
>Not a Jedi

Nah.

And besides, Jolee left the Jedi - he didn't "distance himself from the Council" as much as he literally broke all communications with them and had nothing to do with the Jedi again until Revan showed up.

A better idea of the "gray Jedi" is Qui-Gon. Still a Jedi, still does Jedi things, but disagrees with the council.

>>55224095
>I wanna play a force user who isn't a cultist
Sounds like a sensible person to be honest

>>55227370
>Dark Jedi
>Jedi in the name
And not a Jedi, how weird, I guess you should tell George Lucas he got the name wrong.

>>55227433
George never called them Dark Jedi, that term was a pure EU creation, and more often than not actually referred to Jedi who fell.

Darth Vader was the Lord of the Sith from the very beginning. It's part of his title in the 1976 novelization.

>>55227462
>that term was a pure EU creation
And so were Grey Jedi, srly, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

>and more often than not actually referred to Jedi who fell.
And less often than yes were referred to dark side users. Same with grey jedi and force users who don't fall neither in the light nor in the dark side

>>55227462
>pure EU creation
Probably, but Dark Jedi is used in Clone Wars a couple of times plus in the new, and canon, comics.

>>55226369
>but that's not how the Sith do.
True, but that's more because of their crazy succession rules and other beliefs. The code is in of itself is pretty decent. Hell, you could actually follow the code and not be a sith...

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>Light side

Reminder that we wouldn't be having this debate, if the prequels didn't ruin the jedi forever.

>>55224522
Star Wars was only good vs. evil in the rough draft.

There is no true right or wrong, and if it were otherwise it'd be dumb.

Look up the unifying force. Big school of thought in canon followed by many Jedi and Sith that teaches the Force has no sides, it just appears however the user's emotions want it to.

>>55228342
Unifying Force is Legends, not canon.

And no, saying it was only good vs evil in the rough draft is wrong. That's... like, completely wrong. I don't even understand how you could be so wrong.

They are literally knights fighting against evil wizards and fallen knights wielding dark powers, leading the not!nazis who fucking destroyed a planet just because they could.

Yes, there is nuance there. But to deny that it's black and white? Seriously?

>>55224095
Literally the entire premise of Knights of the Old Republic 2 was half about Grey Jedi.

the other half was looking for the secret option C that would have done away with Red and Blue morality in the Universe and instead empower Jedi into much more logical beings.

But you honestly can't find a better campaign than what Obsidian made so I would have just dropped the player.

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>>55227813
>Dark Side

>>55228539
Woah woah woah.

OT is about one of the worst Jedi of all time teaching an 18 yo idealistic moisture farmer what a Jedi was so he didn't die immediately to the empire's forces, and that naive shit eventually got to his all-powerful dad who turned against the SINGLE evil wizard in existence because he literally purged others that might usurp him except for one half-robot nave.

The Prequels (most likely unintentionally) shows the way a bloated bureaucracy becomes more obsessed with preservation than progress and collapses into fascism - complete with the Jedi in the cartoons and otherwise being strikingly hypocritical in their stated methods compared to their actions.

Morality being black and white in Star Wars is only because there is evil magic space Hitler versus literally anything else in comparison to that.

>>55224522
>Evil only exists to tempt, threaten and corrupt the characters, it's not a faction with legitimate arguments
This, holy fuck. Why is it that so many people don't get something this simple?

Star Wars isn't some complex commentary on philosophy or the nature of evil. It's a simple adventure story. The Dark Side exists solely to be an obstacle for the heroes to overcome.

>>55231773
>OT is about one of the worst Jedi of all time teaching
Nothing of the sort is implied in the OT.

>>55224547
I'm a xenosfag, and even I say the Grey Knights are great.

aren't jedis grey jedi?

I thought it was just the FORCE and then the dark side that was like a little baby offspring of the force.

like the light side is just a bunch of crap people made up.

>>55233972
>aren't jedis grey jedi?
No. They're just Jedi.

>like the light side is just a bunch of crap people made up
Yes.

>>55233972
That's definitely the original portrayal of the Force. But Lucas has never been consistent in his vision.

Originally, there was only The Force. When it was misused, that was the "dark side." Balance did not mean "light and dark in equal measure." It meant balance in the way feng shui seeks harmony. Correctness of thought and action. The problem is that dualist thinking is deeply embedded in western culture, so there was significant confusion.

I'm not well-versed in SW lore, but an edgelord friend of mine sometimes calls himself a "grey Jedi". Were my assumptions that it was, as per usual, autistic edginess correct?

Also, is this a good summary:
>Jedi: We embrace the Force. There's a darker side to power, and we practice discipline to avoid it.
>Sith: Darker Side, you say?
>Jedi: No, it's just that without moderation, power can cor-
>Sith: We worship this Dark Side! Give us ALL of the power!
>Grey Jedi: We follow neither the evils of the Dark Side or the conservative rattlings of the Light Side.
>Jedi: Light Side? What are you talking abou-
>Grey Jedi: We are enlightened. We reject you both and embrace your strengths. *tips fedoras collectively*

>>55234059
Dear God. Grey Jedi are radical centrists.

Also, yes, that is a spot on summary of the issue.

I don't get why Jedi would hold monopoly on The Force techniques and training, since it's supposed to be omnipresent in the Universe.

Shouldn't this be more like a karate - any skilled dude can just set up his own training gym and not poison everything with philosophy?

>>55234126
because in the star wars story nothing exists outside the original trilogy.

>>55234059
Yes, this is pretty accurate.

>>55234075
>Grey Jedi are radical centrists
I wasn't even thinking of that, but yeah, I can see that. That edgelord friend proudly calls himself a radical centrist, and calls anyone whose views aren't perfectly centrist far-[left/right]. For example, because I believe capitalism is a better system than communism, he calls me far-right.

>>55234059
Yeah, except the Jedi are sort of overtly rigid assholes with their own share of internal corruption too. Come to think of it, that describes most of history.

>>55234178
>economically liberal = right
anyone who uses the left-right dichotomy needs to be neutered.

>>55234196
Only according to the EU. And the EU is pretty much shit covered in more shit.

>>55234196
>>55234209
I've only seen the original trilogy and the prequels, and played the old Battlefront and Battlegrounds games. From what I remember, the Jedi were bureaucratic and secretive-to-a-fault at worst.

>>55234196
>Expanded Universe

How I've always seen it, Gray Jedi are Jedi that didn't want to adhere to the strict guidelines that the governmental entity of the Jedi Order would've enforced.

Dark Jedi are the ones who just want to be evil assholes, whereas Sith have ambitions.

Jedi Order - Believe that you can only not be evil by getting rid of emotion and detaching yourself from it. What Yoda is, and most of the Council.

Gray Jedi - Believe that you can not be evil, by just not being evil. More attuned to their emotions than the mainline Order, but they don't go around and stab people for their wallets. Jolee Bindo or Qui-Gon Jinn are decent examples of this.

Dark Jedi - Literally what the Jedi Order is constantly fighting against. Jedi abusing their power and using it for personal gain. An example of this is Set Harth from the Darth Bane stories.

The Sith - The opposite of the Jedi Council, in a sense. They believe that using your anger and whatever else to fuel your power is the way to go. They have a strict code, just like the Order, and they have people leave it, just like the order.


Both the Sith and the Jedi can become Gray Jedi. It's just a matter of how people feel about using your own goddamn powers.

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>tfw The Last Jedi will finally kill the "emotionless bureaucratic asshole" meme
No more orders. Jedi should remain the classic hero archetype they were always meant to be.

>>55227204
Only if they insist on a Wookie or Hutt jedi.

>>55234301
It'll kill it by killing the Jedi for good.

>>55234325
Wookie Jedi are cool in theory.

In practice, it's snowflake city.

>>55234146
SW has always been pretty clingy towards OT.
>same half-a-dozen planets appear in 90% of stories
>most antagonist factions tend to be galactic empire but with x
>clinging to same couple dozen characters and constantly having them involved in everything
>need to make your antagonist threatening? better give them a death star knockoff

>I want to be either a Mandalorian or a disciple of Revan, they're closest to my real life mentality

This is why I don't run Star Wars for my group, even though I love classic EU.

>>55234541
jesus christ.

why does no one show the echani any love :(

>>55234560
The worst part is the timeline for that game was going to be similar to the Han Solo Trilogy novels. The rebellion was still just an idea, and the Empire has been around long enough that people sort of accept it. Yeah it's bad but there's order and peace. The PCs were gonna be a couriers on their own ship in the Outer Rim. Those concepts don't work at all for that, but the guy refused to change his mind. It never got off the ground, for unrelated reasons. Probably for the better.

man, all you people arguing about jedi and the only thing I've ever gotten to play in a star wars game is Lady Gaga in space

>>55234602
I've never even gotten to play a Star Wars game

>>55234609
mine only lasted for like two sessions because the 'hey I wanna play a sexy red skinned space lesbian with sex pheromones and fuck all the girls' kept on trying to drag the game into erp.

no game is better than bad game

>>55234372
That's because whenever Star Wars tries to deviate from the pattern set by the OT the stories become shit.

>>55234647
*because the BAD CONCEPT player

>>55226920
That's only because the Order allied itself with the Republic. Seeming to be faultless arose from the need to appear that way to the public. If the government was going to back these space wizards, they had to be sure they were worth it, people had to get used to the idea that Jedi judgement was faultless.

>>55234647
I've taken part in a game that had one PC playimg a sith and another playing his twi'lek sex slave. It was actually not that bad.

>>55227552
>And so were Grey Jedi
Nope. Qui Gonn was a Grey Jedi.

>>55228539
>not canon
Except it is, the first ever mention of it was the novelization for Phantom Menace.

>>55234725
I guess it's okay if your group is down with it and it isn't disruptive? Sadly neither of those things was true of this game.

>>55234126
There are a TON of other Force traditions, they just didn't achieve the same prominence. Like the Nightsisters.

>>55234752
I live in the middle of nowhere, RL gaming is impossible so 99% of my rpg experience is in play by post. It makes sexual content in games MUCH more tolerable, because you don't have to see the nerd behind the character.

>>55224568
The Rebels were made to be more grey in Rogue One. There was a whole speech about them being a bunch of murderers etc., by one of the rebels, or something along those lines IIRC.
I thought it was retarded too, doesn't fit Star Wars.

>>55234731
Yep, and Jolee Bindo and many other non Jedi that were called that way. Grey Jedi and Dark Jedi don't necessarily mean they have to be in the Jedi order.

>>55234731
EUfags, get out.

>>55235022
The best decision Disney made was scrapping that baggage.

>not just playing a sith based on Nietzsche

Go hug a space-horse.

>>55235046
Well, I know what I'm doing if I ever play a Star Wars RPG.

>>55235032
Don't disagree, but new canon is not without flaws. Can I say Aftermath?

>>55235672
That's why I said "the best decision".

Look ether you do use your emotions to channel the Force or you don't. There is no grey in this.

>>55234747
The novelizations for I-VI are not canon. At first they were canon "only where they align with the films" - but then they retracted that and said they no longer consider those novels canon.

The only canon novelizations are the ones for TFA and R1. There are canon adaptations of I-VI, but those all came after the reboot.

>>55235032
>scrapping that baggage
They only swapped it for other garbage, anon, new cannon is as awful and the worst thing is they did it in less than 5 years when old EU took decades.

You now have sabercopters, crawling in my skin crystals, Dinasty Warriors Vader edition, people dying and coming back alive because they authors don't read other authors shit and a long etc

>>55237122
Some canon characters might disagree

>>55237122
>Negative emotions
Important distinction

>Jensaarai aren't canon but Night Sisters are
Why live

>>55237188
>people dying and coming back alive
Name an instance of this?

>>55237248
Not him but I remember they killed Dengar (they blew him up) in a comic that happens previous to ESB

>>55224095
You don't need the Dark Side for a balanced Force. The Dark Side is the imbalance.

>>55237277
They didn't kill Dengar.

In Star Wars 12 (Showdown on Smuggler's Moon V) Chewbacca throws him off of a roof and there's an explosion and Han says that takes care of that - but it's a very Disney death, leaving things open to him returning - we see an explosion, but that's it.

He shows up later in Darth Vader 16, the Shu-Torun War I, being briefed on the next bounty - Doctor Aphra.

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>>55237225

Thing is, you can't have just positive emotions. Negative emotions are part of a normal, healthy emotional life.

So, you can keep your feelings out of your force-use, or you can try to use some of them, dealing with the nigh-certainty that some negative ones will seep through.

But more importantly: Grey Jedi are boring because they're normal. Jedi are weird. Being a Jedi is hard. You're not an X-man, born with superpowers you struggle to control. You're a Buddhist monk, surrendering your will to cosmic forces, casting aside all personal attachments. Yes, even love. If you want love, want a normal life, then go live a normal life. If you want superpowers, you give up EVERYTHING else, until you reach a place where you don't HAVE powers, you're simply a servant and vessel of the power that is everywhere.

If you try to have superpowers and still hold onto earthly attachments, you go dark. You can't tap into the force while still harboring your own desires; if you do, you wind up trying to twist cosmic face to your own ends, and go crazy and evil.

It's a hard choice, and that hard choice is at the core of what the Force, Jedi, and Sith are about. Saying you don't actually need to make that choice, you can just have superpowers AND attachments and still be happy and nice, makes most of the conflict of the entire setting pointless.

>>55237557
I'm pretty sure Luke Skywalker never needed to become a boring, emotionless faggot like Mace Windu and other prequel wooden faced dipshits with no personality in order to not fall to the Dark Side.

>>55235032
>ditching Kyle fucking Katarn for uninspired dogshit
>knocking off EU stories left and right (Rogue One is the final parts of Rebel Dawn with less reason to care and more special effects, fight me)
>this is something people will defend unironically
Fucking kill me

>>55234810
Look up Face Loran sometime. The Rebels weren't 100% sweetness and light in old canon either.

>>55237575
The idea that the Jedi can't show emotion is wrong, and is contradicted by the films themselves. The Jedi are just as human (or alien) as you and I are.

It's not "don't have emotions" that the Jedi are supposed to teach (and generally they don't teach that anyway), it's "don't let your emotions control your decisions."

All the Jedi in the films show emotions. But what they don't do is use those emotions to power themselves - Obi-Wan learned firsthand that being angry doesn't make you any better than being calm, given that his rage after Maul killed Qui-Gon nearly got himself killed.

>>55237575
>>55237618

Yeah, no one's in a state of meditation all the time. But when you try to channel the force, you gotta get your head right. No screaming with passion as you attack, like every other fantasy or sci-fi character in everything ever. You have to have self-control, enough of it to be calm in the most stressful situation possible.

>>55237587
Kyle Katarn wasn't good.

>>55237188
Don't forget jumping aboard the DS knockoff of the week cancer in the very first movie they made and having bad guys that are GE but with a new paintjob.

>>55237682
>not a child of a big-dick legendary Jedi, but of a dirt farmer from Sullust who was pals with a Jedi once
>was a stormie before switching sides
>by design a more relatable, practical everyman character than Skywalker

He became meme-tier later on but he was a good character. Next you'll be telling me Zahn should have stuck to writing space ninjas and Stackpole's a hack or something equally fucking ludicrous

>>55237770
This. The setup for nucanon's New Republic era is completely pants-on-head fucktarded too.

>>55237557
The abounding hounds :3

>>55234541
>Mandalorian
>Revan
>having any similarities ideologically
Is he just retarded or does he just want the armor?

>>55237770
>>55237803
I actually think the idea behind the First Order is interesting, but the way it was pulled off in VII is awful.

Starkiller Base was... not a very good idea either. I can see where JJ was coming from for it, but it really should have been built up more in the story before they showed it and used it, or it should have been just hinted at and used in VIII.

>>55234810
I don't think Star Wars storytelling should be restricted to that degree. As long as the Rebels aren't black morality and the Empire isn't white morality it's fine.

>>55227780
>The code is in of itself is pretty decent.
The code begins with "peace is a lie, there is only passion". It's about rejecting the concept of harmony and letting your emotions control you, then calling that "freedom". The fact that Sith tend to be psychotic edgelords isn't just extenuating circumstances or exaggeration, it's the logical extension of their core concept.

The Force doesn't help with that, because it's connected with your thought and feelings and has a tendency to take things to extremes.

The Sith Code doesn't help with that, because it treats emotional extremes as a desirable goal to be actively sought out.

This feedback loop is basically how Dark Side corruption works. The Sith cross moral lines to get what they want, and are proud of themselves for it. At first they might think "well I know I need to show some restraint sometimes", but they're discouraged from actually having restraint because "through edginess my chains are broken and I am set free" and so on. Their "losing control = not compromising = freedom = good" becomes habit-forming and self-reinforcing very easily, especially when you've got the Force involved; before you know it, you're punting a puppy across the street just because it's in your way and you're too irritated to step around it.

>>55237878
Part of the problem is that the First Order was too much like the Galactic Empire, in that they were a force with overwhelming numbers and power fighting a ragtag bunch of rebels. It makes sense that there would be remnants of the old Empire who hold to its ideals even after its defeat, but not that they'd be as powerful as the old Empire compared to the now-victorious Rebel Alliance. It would be more fitting to have the roles reversed, with the Empire loyalists being outnumbered and operating in secret while the heroes have to discover their conspiracy, or holding onto a relative few star systems which the heroes have to infiltrate.

>>55238624
I agree there, the sense of scale is scewed improperly, all to make the good guys still come off as plucky underdogs because people dont know how to write underdog villains, and im speakingnas the freak of nature who liked this movie and the prequels.

>>55238624
No, I totally agree with you. Hence my point about the execution of it.

The idea of Space Wehraboos taking off and doing their best to build a Glorious New Empire to strike from the shadows of the Unknown Regions is a great one. That they are Empire fanaticists and despite their Bigger is Better Doctrine they have failed in all sorts of ways to truly understand why the Empire worked and why it failed is also a great idea.

But JJ failed to deliver on literally any information on them besides the fact that they exist and are even more blatant Nazi allegories than the Empire was.

TFA had a number of problems, and I believe most of them stem from JJ and Kasdan kicking off the previous writer and making it probably the least subtle homage to ANH they possibly could.

>>55239004
I agree there too, i liked it but they pandered way top hard to the nostalgic crowd, at least the prequels attempted to do some different things.

>>55233940
I'm pretty sure I saw Obi Wan's fight with Darth Vader in the OT where he purposely loses in front of Luke to spur Luke into fighting against the empire harder. It's like one of the fundamental things always made fun of about a new hope.

>>55239004
What i find amusin is that without trying to make fun of him, Kylo has more in common with dark helmet. Hes a normal looking dude who wears the helmet for intimidation purposes, has very childish fantasies about his own badness, thinks good is dumb, and lacks maturity and has frequent temper tantrums

>>55224522
>Because Star Wars is Good vs Evil. The Dark Side isn't Chaos, it's Satan, the One Ring and meth rolled into one. By changing that, you retroactively make the Original Trilogy meaningless.
I dunno man, only a Sith deals in absolutes.

>>55237188
Add to that the FO is piss poor according to the books but they can build a super hyper mega death star (and lose it and treat it like pocket change), a super hyper mega star destroyer, super hyper mega ATAT and another death star

>>55239850
People think they're cute and all nerdy and shit now when they like starwars, but they forget that back then people didn't have fucking lives, and probably had serious mental issues and hangups around shit like star wars and DnD.

>>55237557
>if you do, you wind up trying to twist cosmic face to your own ends, and go crazy and evil.
That's one of my problem with star wars.
Sith aren't evil. They're drug addict, or possessed.
They don't choose to kick puppies and kill babies, they choose once or twice to use the Force for personal gains and under very strong emotions, and then they became a big bad evil who want to rape and kill and the person they were is gone.
It's good for having evil antagonist, but the person itself is not very evil, he just did some shitty choices, and these choices could be totally okay if he wasn't force sensitive.

To be fair, I don't think most people want to be a Gray Jedi, they want to be a Sith who doesn't have cartoonish emotional baggage like they're going through Force-Menopause

For all it's garbage, The Old Republic at least had the uncharacteristically interesting choice of letting Sith play as honorable, if not very nice, warriors.

>>55240554
They're not actually piss-poor. That's not something that's been stated. They got a ton of funding from the Centrists as well as who knows what sorts of mining operations out there in the Unknown Regions.

This idea that they're poor really isn't true. Maybe they started out that way, but Bloodlines established that they got a steady supply of funding from sympathizers in the NR.

>>55237587
My personal wish for episode 8 is for them to say that Kyle Katarn existed, and that Kylo Ren killed him in a duel.

>>55240633

Palpatine purposely manufactured a war, leading to untold death and destruction, in order to overthrow a democratic system which had stood for millenia, which had recently began to stagnate and decline due to the actions of both he and his erstwhile master (if we count the Darth Plagueis book as being nominally canon).

His new Empire brutally oppressed anyone who stepped out of line, imposed high taxation, species-based slavery, and bucket loads of specism to boot (muh Human High Culture!).

He also signed off on the construction of truly colossal weapons of war, such as the Death Star and the Super Star Destroyers, to be used against any who would question his authority.

Pretty damn villainous, and I haven't even begun to discuss his being a Sith who viewed himself as the culmination of millenia of Sith plots and machinations, intent on ruling the galaxy forever.

>>55240847
>Pretty damn villainous
You missed my point.
Palpatine was doing all of that, WHILE BEING A SITH.
He was ALREADY CORRUPTED by the dark side.

If he's corrupted by the dark side, if he can't do anything else than evil because of the dark side, and if people on the dark side have to fight so hard and so much to do a good thing and have redemption, then they're simply drug addict or possessed people.

Under the control of the dark side, they do fucked up shit, but it's because of the dark side, not because they actively choose to.

>>55240645
Indeed, with the knights of ren out if the sith come back they might grow into something new

Can't wait for the new movie so people like OP get eternally angry at the idea of space magic not being a childish good/evil binary

>>55240897
They actively choose to continue using the dark side. It's an addiction, but one that can be broken.

Palpatine not only chose not to break his addiction to it, but actively reveled in his addiction.

>>55240964
Do they? They keep using the dark side under the influence of the dark side. They don't have lapse of lucidity, not that I know of.

>>55240952
But anon, literally the opposite is gonna happen.

>>55241038
Vader redeemed himeslf. In the end, it's up to you to choose.

>>55241038
>They keep doing meth under the influence of meth

We know plenty of characters who have dabbled or even used the dark side long term who have come back from doing that. Palpatine's strength of will is great enough that had he wanted to, he could have turned away from the dark side as well.

But that's simply not in his character. He DOESN'T want to turn away from it. He fucking loves it. As do most of the Sith and other dark siders from long-standing traditions involving the dark side, they love what they're doing. That's why they keep doing it.

Hell, look at Kylo Ren. He's actively fighting against turning back to the light because he wants to be like the image of his grandfather that he's gotten from Snoke. He says it himself he feels the draw to turn away from the dark side, but wants to keep doing it because he wants to be more like how Darth Vader was.

The dark side is addictive because not only does it make it easier to use, but because it unleashes the inner animal in a person. It's bestial and predatory, and those who use it are drawn to its power because of that nature.

>>55240810
W-why would you want that?

>>55241275
I love Kylo Ren so fucking much. He's not like the other sith we've seen, Darth Vader clones with spooky faces. He's like /r9k/ given force powers, a school shooter with a lightsaber.
Just wish he didn't job to Rey.

>>55241314
>He's not like the other sith we've seen

Because he's NOT a Sith? The Sith are a specific group of dark side users with their own knowledge, rituals, beliefs, techniques, and traditions.

The Knights of Ren are their own thing, even if they stylize themselves after the Sith in some ways (supposedly, although we still know hardly anything about them).

>>55241314
Igf you cound being shoit, stabbed, sliced, and beaten 'jobbing'. Rey was fairly fresh against a wounded, tired, lacerated, bleeding enemy. It was very much possible that she would have killed him just because he was fighting in a severely weakened state.

>>55240952
Maybe if they show some Sith that aren't pants on head retarded.

>>55240952
>new movie
They already showed that in Clone Wars and Rebels, several times and in almost all they painted those religions as morally better than Jedi

>>55224095
Players often aren't smart enough to figure out that every fallen Jedi wanted to be a grey Jedi. In D&D, every lich wanted to be the one good/neutral lich, just as every evil necromancer wanted to be the one to prove that necromancy isn't really evil. Everyone who ever dated a succubus or vampire wanted to believe that their beloved is "just misunderstood" or "can be redeemed, especially by having sex with me."

Everyone thinks they can be the exception, but you are not special. You believe that you are special because you are the only one with a consciousness that you can directly perceive, but everyone else has a point of view just like yours, and they're all having thoughts much like your own, and you will fail just like them.

>>55241061
He didn't, though. Imagine if he had lived to stand trial. Being sorry for ten seconds and killing one bad guy does not even come close to making up for all the shit that Vader did. Of course Luke would want to pull some strings to make his father get away scot-free like Kyp fucking Durron, but I hope that Leia and Mon Mothma and the rest would understand that they need to pull Vader's plug or keep him forever in space jail.

>>55241474
I wouldn't say they were all shown to be morally better - the Dagoyan Masters were content to sit back and complain about the Jedi and not actually do anything despite seeing the dark side's presence becoming stronger. They're also the only other "light side" Force tradition we see in the galaxy in TCW. The Lasan tradition is also not shown to really be morally better, just more concerned with local issues than with galactic-scale ones.

>>55241575
Redemption =/= atonement.

He turned away from the dark side, but died before he could truly atone or pay for his actions.

>>55241314
>Just wish he didn't job to Rey.
Yeah, that bit was pretty painfully awful to watch.

It sort of invalidates the whole setting if years of training mean literally nothing.

>>55241521
That's a very bleak and defeatit mindset, you're not going to accomplish your dreams with that mindset

>>55241643
Yes, it does. He didn't turn away from shit. Good intentions are worthless and do not change the correct evaluation of a person. People are the sum total of their actions. You are redeemed when the balance of good deeds vs. bad becomes positive and not a moment before.

>>55241521
Cute, but the reality is most players just don't like black and white ontological reality, where you're evil for just *being* a thing, rather than what you do. It doesn't mesh well with modern sensibilities.

One quick way I put a stop to "good" necromancers is by making it clear that every undead feels every moment of it. The unending itch of decay. The pain of every worm that rots and burrows. Every puss laden boil. They can't scream unless you let them, but if you let them that's all they'd do until they have no throat left to exhale. And when their bones are ground to dust, they remain there, blind and deaf and unfeeling, for all eternity until a cleric finds their lost soul.

With this setup its impossible to be a necromancer and be anything other than a selfish uncaring sociopath. Even a radical utilitarian would prefer slavery to necroslavery.

>>55241722
Taking into account only pure hearted good people can turn into Force Ghosts, yep, Vader totally reedemed himself and became a good boy

>>55241521
But why the fuck do they fall?
Who do every fucking time they fall?
There is never a good explanation for that. "It's the corruption of power, it must turn you into a bad guy!"
It seems shallow and only there to justify having villains

>>55224551

Which ultimately just makes it every other sci-fi but worse as there isn't any sci in it.

Also the only redeeming factor is laser swords.

>>55241747
>taking into account that george lucas is a hack, george lucas is really a hack

>>55241739
That's a pretty good way of doing it. One can also save the trouble by using animate inanimate object on a back of maniquines, gaining essentially the same resulting work force with none of the issues.

But I like the point you make, even the most open minded will shut up when they see how much suffering is required to do x power

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>>55241715
Before following your dreams you should check whether they're literally possible or whether you're kidding yourself. It's also important to evaluate any risks involved in a realistic way and not pretend you're immune to them because you see yourself as a main character.

>>55241722
Yes, in fact, he did turn away from the dark side. That was the whole point, he saw what the dark side was doing to his son, and turned away from it, and in doing so suffered and died for it. Just because he didn't go around planting trees and healing the sick does not mean he did not redeem himself in the end.

Your definition of redemption is wrong.

>the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil.

That is the first definition on Google.

>>55241715
Not him but he is right. A exception is a exception because it is a rare event, and everyone thinks they are the one. A grey Jedi is one in 100, the rest fall right through to Sith. Same with Necromancers, same with Liches, or any of the typical bad thing but mine isn't card that is so often pulled.
No. Yours is also black to. Now it can be really fun to play a character that thinks they are grey or even white, but really are black. Trying to think up their justifications or moral scales can be really interesting. Yes, killing is wrong, but it was self defense so it's fine (while ignoring the fact that his very presence kills off crops and causes sickness). Or a Necrotic that doesn't have any moral issue with graverobbery, and doesn't understand why people put so much feelings into corpses, and the various conflicts that come out of that.
And most of our dreams are dead, why do you think we are here?

>>55239082

He knew he wasn't able to win at his advanced age. It's a noble sacrifice.

>>55241871
To talk about games and have fun? I've been here for 9 years and have yet to feel my idealism crushed

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>>55241747
Lots of Sith became Force ghosts. Also, Qui-Gon became a Force ghost, and he was an evil piece of shit.

It makes sense if you think about it. Becoming a ghost is telling the universe that you're too important to die, breaking the natural order of things in service to your own sense of self. It is the ultimate act of egotism and therefore more compatible with the dark side than the light.

>>55241904
In Legends, Sith become Force ghosts, yes - but they're more akin to liches, binding themselves to objects or locations.

The Jedi ghosts are free to do and go as they wish, but generally don't stick around as long as the Sith ghosts did.

They cannot do it in canon. That power is beyond them. It's beyond all dark siders, except the weird ghost/apparition things that the Nightsisters do, and that's something else entirely.

Qui-Gon was hardly evil. Why would you say he is?

>>55241904
>Qui-Gon
>evil
He was probably the only Jedi with any brains you dumbass, a Jedi becomes a force ghost purely so they can continue teaching younger Jedi past their time, they only preserve their individuality within the force for the sake of others. So you could not possibly be more wrong

>>55224643
>>55226026
>>55226311
>>55226369
>>55226458
>>55226635
>>55226746
>>55227006
>>55227204
>>55224643
>>55226026
>>55226311
>>55226369
>>55226458
>>55226635
>>55226746
>>55227006
>>55227204
>>55227315
>>55227462
>>55227780
>>55228342
>>55234059
>>55234256
>>55227315
>>55234725
>>55235046
>>55237557
>>55238089
>>55240495
>>55240633
>>55240645
>>55240847
>>55240897
>>55240918
>>55241275
>>55241314
>>55241334
>>55241431
>sith sith sith sith
I liked it better when there was only the Jedi and the Emperor.

>>55241968
Nobody cares

>>55241968
The word Sith was introduced in the very first Star Wars media, the novelization of the first film which came out in 1976, six months before the movie did. It introduced Darth Vader as the Dark Lord of the Sith.

>>55241953
He is the direct or indirect cause of every bad thing to come after him. He lies, cheats, steals, and is only interested in ending slavery for people he likes.

Fitting into our discussion of people who are exceptions, he thought that both he and Anakin were exceptions to whom the normal rules do not apply, and that sense of entitlement carried over directly to Anakin during their short time together.

>>55241968
I think I liked it better when replying to every post in a thread would get you banned

>>55224095
You can play whatever you fuckin' want

>>55241968
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja4WudpzBYw

Watch this and read the novelization, you brainless ugly little gnome

>>55242016
>He is the direct or indirect cause of every bad thing to come after him.

Because he found Anakin? That doesn't mean he caused anything, anyone else could have found Anakin or not and the war would have happened just the same.

> He lies

When?

> cheats

He turned what were probably weighted dice to begin with to favor taking Anakin.

>steals

What did he steal? He paid for everything.

>and is only interested in ending slavery for people he likes

He very explicitly tries to take both Anakin and his mother, but Watto says no, one or the other.

>>55241962
The only person Qui-Gon ever talks to is Yoda. Clearly you don't have to be really good at the Force to see Force ghosts, because Luke saw and heard Obi-Wan while he was still shit at using the Force, and he never became anything more than barely competent during the course of the films. So the only reason Qui-Gon could have for not talking to Anakin nonstop since his death is that he didn't want to.

And the fact that Qui-Gon remained a ghost for about ten years without any notable interference in the ever-growing clusterfuck that was the Jedi Order shows that he was not just sticking around to teach and help others.

>>55242050
>"This... Sith Lord, sent by the Emperor"
That dialogue heavily implies that the Emperor isn't a Sith.

>>55224522

Evil without motivation is just nonsensical and cartoonish. Even Sauron had motivations which were absolute control. What seems to you as simple morality tale is actually a great deal more complex as is presented by Anakin/Vader's fall and eventual redemption-balancing the force. A constant theme in SW is the hero's over-identification with what he considers to be good and eventually succumbing to corruption, doubly so in the prequels because the Jedi are sanctimonious annoying fags.

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>>55224095
>Darth Vader had a lightsaber 'cuz he used to be a Jedi.
>He made it red because he was evil.

>But then it became established that if you could use the Force and you were evil, your name was Darth and you had a red lightsaber.

Literally the only problem with Star Wars is the obsession with canon. Fuck canon, fuck Star Wars fans, fuck Lucas.

Jabba the Hutt used to be a cool, weird slug gangster on a desert planet. He was interesting because he was, we assumed, unique. But then it became established that "Hutts" were all slug gangsters from a planet filled with slug gangsters. Instantly, Jabba stops being special and becomes just another Hutt.

The same thing happened to Boba Fett. Boba Fett was a background character that people gravitated towards because he had cool armor. He was a bounty hunter, and supposedly a badass. But then we learned he was just one of untold thousands of people who were exactly like him, all the way down to the armor they wore.

I'm actually fucking shocked we haven't seen an entire planet of Han Solos or Luke Skywalkers yet, the way things are going. It's so depressingly bad.

>>55242073
Or it means that they don't know about the Emperor being a Sith.

Hell, in the novelization it's stated that the Emperor is a figurehead and that all the people around him - like those at that table - are the ones with the actual power.

>>55242068
Qui-Gon actually does communicate with Anakin (he calls out to him right before he goes and kills all the Sand People) - and one of the last scenes in RotS is Yoda talking to Obi-Wan about communicating with Yoda.

Also, technically Qui-Gon never finished his training and as such never actually was able to manifest as a true ghost, just a whisper. The only time he does manifest visually in TCW is in the Mortis realm, which was basically a gigantic shared vision.

>>55242092
>I'm actually fucking shocked we haven't seen an entire planet of Han Solos
We have; it's called Corellia. They're all legendary pilots and they all wear that cool vests or bomber jackets.

>>55242073
I think at this time it wasn't clear if the Emperor was just a cunning dictator or the evil space wizard we had in RotJ

>>55242124
That's the dumbest fucking thing.

>>55242118
>Or it means that they don't know about the Emperor being a Sith.
More likely it means that the Sith was conceptualized as something different than it later became. Originally Darth Vader was intended as an evil baron ruling over a planet called Sith, thus Dark Lord of Sith.

>in the novelization it's stated that the Emperor is a figurehead and that all the people around him - like those at that table - are the ones with the actual power.
Because that's likely what Lucas intended at the time when the first movie was being shot.

>>55242092
I call it the Greedo rule: in Star Wars, every single member of an alien species is exactly like the first member of that species we see or hear of in the films. That's why all Twi'leks are slave strippers, all Rodians are criminals, all Hutts are crime lords, all Wookies are kindly noble savages, all Bothans are spies, etc. Never mind that a race that's nothing butt spies kind of defeats the point of having a spy.

>>55242166
Welcome to the Star Wars.
>obi-wan wore robes
>therefore all jedis were bathrobe aficionados.

>>55242213
They could have made it slightly less stupid by having all Jedi wear black like Luke in Return of the Jedi. I just kind of assumed that he wore that because he read somewhere that Jedi used to dress like that. He certainly didn't seem like the emo type, and it certainly wasn't to keep cool in the desert.

>>55242198
>butt spies
James Bond: The Man with the Golden Cock?

>>55241757

Because when you step on that path, every incremental step becomes easier to justify to yourself. I can use my character, a LN elven necromancer downfall:

>I'm going to search for immortality so that elves can just outlast the other races
>I've made progress and made contact with an entity that will extend my lifespan to roughly 10k years. It doesn't even want my soul, just a periodic lease on my body.
>I've gathered adherents and now they also had their lifespans drastically increased. We're going to petition the High Council to let this magic go public.
>The High Council are a bunch of narrow-minded jerks. We'll defy them and start teaching in secret.
>I've made a deal with the dragon and now my lifespan is roughly 50k. All I need to do is consume the essence of a living being every 1k years, doesn't even have to be sentient.
>I improved the ritual and can now live millenia... if I drain a sentient every year.

At that point, our cult was actively kidnapping sacrifices and the bigger it got, the more sacrifices we needed. The point is, very few people will say "Okay, I'm going to start sacrificing others for my personal benefit." It's a slow and gradual progress that creeps up on you suddenly.

>>55242193
>Originally Darth Vader was intended as an evil baron ruling over a planet called Sith, thus Dark Lord of Sith.

Source : your glorious ass

>>55242265
Actually, that was Lucas' original plan.

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>>55242198
>all Rodians are criminals

Wrong, your Greedo rule is wrong
Also see Aayla Secura and the Ryloth arc in TCW for twi'leks

>>55242319
He is truly his own worst enemy.

>>55242319
Then why change it to the hermit robes?

>>55241968

look at this fucking ape

>>55234541
>Not wanting to be a mando cause they're rad
>Playing a character because you share ideologies

Something is wrong with that player.

>>55242355
It's an exaggeration, of course. There's been such a volume of shit written for Star Wars that there's bound to be one or two exceptions.

Ayala Secura still dressed like a stripper, though, because I guess female twi'leks just have an instinct to dress like that. Maybe they breathe through their midriffs.

>>55241757
The best explanation is >>55241798 - they disregard the risks inherent in the forces they're dabbling with because they lack the imagination to understand that they might fall prey to those risks, too. Their thoughts on the matter are limited to their own past experiences ("I've never been corrupted or addicted before, so clearly I'm immune,) and their fantasies of a perfect outcome (I'll succeed where all these other people failed because I'm not like the other girls! And I'm not like the other girls because I feel special and I assume the other girls don't feel special.)

>>55241280
Because he's Disney cancer anon. We all know Crylo would get goaded into raging out, then pasted across the wall with a concussion rifle blast if it came down to him and Katarn.

>>55241893
>have yet to feel my idealism crushed
Then you're an idiot.

>>55242057
He paid for everything in a useless currency. Watto didn't just say no to the Republic credits because he's mean; he's motivated by profit. Qui-Gon didn't know if the dice were weighted, and it didn't matter because he literally controlled the outcome with fucking telekinesis. That's cheating. He steals via cheating, and before that attempts to use a Jedi mind trick to essentially steal by trading worthless currency for valuable goods.

And considering that this guy has demonstrated an unlimited ability to screw over Watto, he could have easily acquired Shmi if he gave a shit at all, but he probably only included her in the deal so he'd have something to haggle down from, considering the speed and indifference with which he consigns her back to slavery.

>>55242730
That depends entirely on the game. JK1 concussion rifle sure, but not the concussion altfire in Outcast or the altfire and rifle in Academy because fuuuuuuck those games treated the poor Conc rifle like shit.

>>55242755
For being smart enough to not be crushed into a nihilistic shell of a human being?

>>55242836
For believing that you are smart, and for believing that that is the alternative.

>>55242804
Yeah, they didn't give that gun half as much love as they should have done. Understandable, though, seeing as it was brutal as shit in JK1.

In any case, Katarn is not above playing dirty to get the win (I think I pretty much ignored proxmines till the Boc boss battle, and I imagine he would've used them there just like I did. Plus the dude NEVER let go of his bryar pistol)

>>55242632
The slippery slope argument only works when you're talking about things which are actually bad. If someoe asks why it's evil to be X, and there's no real answer, they eren't going to inevitably be corrupted into abandoning their morals and becoming evil because they didn't make a moral compromise in the first place.

>>55242794
>He paid for everything in a useless currency.

He /tried/ to pay with Republic credits, which is not a useless currency - Watto could have gotten someone to change the Republic dataries to Hutt coinage, but he didn't want to.

And in the end, they did pay with legal currency - what Anakin won from winning the podrace, plus what they got from selling the podracer after.

Qui-Gon could have requested they sell some of the Queen's stuff, but then they say no, or they can't find someone willing to buy it even at the equivalent of pennies on the dollar. Suddenly they're back where they started, no money, or so little money so as to be worthless.

He tried to acquire Shmi, anon. He wanted to. But it wasn't in the cards. He couldn't do it, and if he kidnapped or stole Shmi away, Watto now has a grievance against the Jedi, because they've just violated international laws.

>>55226369
It is actualy. The Jedi are a stagnant order who worship ignorance("let the force guide you" and shit like that) and rarely develop anything.

Nearly all sorcery and force-based artefacts was created by siths. Some jedi even looked down on people that created synthetic "kyber" crystals.

>>55224095
No such thing. 'Jedi' is a term for a force tradition aligned with the light side of the force. You can't be a 'Gray' Jedi any more than you could be a 'married bachelor'.

>>55226026
The Sith philosophy makes the most sense for people who want to power through every challenge and are fine with minmaxing into Dark Side to do it.

>>55242306
It's from an early draft of the script and Lucas' earliest known conceptualization of Sith. Later drafts had a group of Sith Knights, and later still that was cut down to just Vader who, in the script but not the final cut, was referred to as a Dark Lord of the Sith, which at that point still most likely didn't include the Emperor as the uncut scene implies.

And even if the Emperor had been conceptualized as a Sith Lord by RotJ (which again is never stated in the movie) that movie still heavily implies that he something entirely different from a Jedi. He calls the lightsaber "a Jedi weapon" for example, and thus implies that Vader only uses his because he used to be one, not that all Siths have them.

>>55224547
I always wonder, how a fucking terminator could ever be mobile enough to get into a position to stab a demon on the head, Unless he fell on him.

>>55245589
He fucked it up until it fell down, then he walked up it and shanked it in the thinky-bits.

>>55242913
In the case of the dark side of the Force, and in the case of some kinds of bad magic in some settings, the problem is that it's addictive. The Force is supposed to be the background radiation created by countless living things. That energy was never supposed to flow the other way, and the humanoid brain is not evolved to handle that kind of energy, even if there are a few mutants who can handle it in limited amounts for limited durations. Wise Force-sensitives use that energy in a very limited, disciplined way (or not at all) because to do otherwise will inevitably fuck up their brain chemistry as surely as any hard drug.

D&D necromancy involves creating small artificial openings to the Negative Energy Plane, the infinitely hungering and hateful abyss that despises all life. The gods in their wisdom allowed this place just enough contact with the Prime Material to set it in motion and slowly make room for new life and new ideas. Mortals in their hubris think they can get away with prying open more holes to infinite angry oblivion. Not only will this upset the balance when done too much, but all undead creatures (and to a lesser extent the living necromancers themselves) are influenced directly by the character of that plane and its bottomless hatred for all life.

>>55246965
Cue Good Necromancer dipshits saying undead are misunderstood.

>>55224568
>muhh red lightsabers means your ebil

wow youre a sensitive faggot

The problem is inconsistency. JJ Abrams clearly did not want the Force to act like the alignment bar in KOTOR because Kylo Ren was mistaken to believe that killing his father would elevate his Sith power levels. But the rest of the canon more or less functions on that belief currently. Doing more good puts you in the blue, using both sides puts you in the grey, etc.

There has to be consistency in the Force being tied to the emotional capacity of living people. That is, once you stop caring about what your actions do to the living, then you will truly fall to the dark side and the realm of demons.

>>55247562
It must tie in somehow to how and when you use the force. You only have to worry about controlling your emotions if you're Force-sensitive. Han Solo can kill in cold blood all he likes and never turn into a yellow-eyed weirdo.

>>55241888
That is not conveyed in the movies whatsoever. Then again, Lucas was never good at actually conveying what he meant though he lucked into better world building than he intended in doing so.

The movies as they exist show Obi Wan as someone consumed with revenge against the Sith he assumed were long gone, found out the republic he always fought for was corrupted into the rise of an evil wizard, his training of Anakin transferred his lack of cool to an already at-risk force user, and he winds up nearly killing Anakin barely saving Padme and watching over a moisture farmer as the world turned to shit.

Add in the cartoons and you find out he had an illicit romance, has a habit of not finishing his enemies off, and is generally awful at being one of the leaders of the Jedi. It's actually easier looking at the larger canon to assume Obi Wan had emotional fragility that bled into his pupils, and without Yoda Luke learned very little of the philosophy driving the force outside of faith.

>>55247562
The current canon only ties alignment to light/dark side of the force out of convenience. This villain uses the dark side and is bad because the protagonists face them, meanwhile Anakin pushes Padme around and force chokes prisoners for years before he finally falls to the dark side.

>>55247758
>That is not conveyed in the movies whatsoever.
Are you autistic? Serious question, because it being a noble sacrifice is made pretty clear from Obi-Wan's facial expressions alone.

So if morality in SW is not good vs. evil as many in this thread have argued, why does the dark side of the force corrupt the user into a horrible fucking abomination?

>>55248115
Because the "light side" isn't unambiguous objective good.

>>55248161
then what exactly is the light side in your understanding.
I've always seen it as the pretty clear good side, except in the Kotor games but those are different than the main canon.

>>55248234
There is no side, only The Force.

The whole point of the Jedi vs Sith conflict is that they are both throwing the natural order out of balance. Balance is the only thing that matters, which is why the Force sets in motion a prophesy to destroy, not only the Sith, but the Jedi as well.

Yoda, Qui Gon, and maybe Obiwan all realize this in the end. In the Clone Wars cartoon, which is canon, Yoda realizes that in hopes of banishing his dark side by practicing the virtues of the Jedi, he only let it grow into pride and superiority over others. He accepts this darkness into himself, and finally finds the balance needed to continue with his trials to become one with the Force and become a force ghost. Qui Gon was already naturally inclined in this process, which is why he is also capable of becoming a force ghost, although he mentions he someone failed or was otherwise incomplete in his training.

In the end it was Anakin, a dark side user, who brought balance back into the universe. Not Luke. The Force chose Anakin to become Vader as part of it's "divine plan," which aligns with the Taoist philosophy that Lucas was inspired by. In every bit of good, their is dark, and in every bit of dark, there is light, but they are part of the same whole that controls the natural order of things.

>>55248161
The Light Side is.

Light Side users aren't - they're regular people like you and I. Of course they're not perfect.

>>55248393
This is wrong. The Jedi had their (pretty serious) issues, but they were not actively causing imbalance with the Force like the Sith were - and in fact, the Sith were /causing/ those issues the Jedi had in the first place.

Also, it was Anakin, a light side user, who brought balance back to the Force. Not Darth Vader, the dark side user. He gave up that identity when he chose to turn against Palpatine.

>>55248052
I honestly don't think you know how stupid that scene looks outside of devout fandom. It's well acted, but that doesn't make the characters actions in fiction a noble sacrifice at all - especially with the wider context of canon even within the OT.

Hell, his line is "strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can imagine" or something like that. He says he is the symbol to encourage Luke through revenge in his death.

>>55248524
>This is wrong.

All evidence points to the contrary.

The Jedi were not in balance, or otherwise the Five Priestesses Yoda meets would not have had to test him. The Five Priestesses, perfect Force beings who have achieved balance in the Force, were characterized by Serenity, Joy, Anger, Confusion, and Sadness. The Jedi only practiced one of the Five, serenity, and barely tolerated the others. The Sith were the opposite of course, and disavowed serenity in order to revel in the power of the other four.

I don't know why this is still in issue in the fandom, if you watch all the canon materials, it's clear that both Jedi and Sith are doing it wrong. This is further restated by Bendu in the new Rebels cartoon.

>>55248701
Yeah it's pretty clear to me too. The difference is that the emperor leaned onto disrupting the balance and even manipulated events to make it worse, while Yoda eventually found out he was one of the causes and sought redemption.

>>55248701
Again, I said the Jedi had their issues, but this idea that they're contributing to the imbalance problem? That isn't one of them. They lost their way, yes, they'd grown arrogant yes, but they weren't /actively/ fucking around with the dark side and perverting the balance of the Force.

And again, the problems the Jedi have are nearly-universally because of the Sith, and the shrine that they have deep underneath the Jedi Temple that's actively corrupting the Jedi Temple.

>>55248760
>but they weren't /actively/ fucking around with the dark side and perverting the balance of the Force.

They were fighting in the clone wars. They even explicitly state that this is why the Jedi lose in the end and why the Force becomes clouded to them. The Jedi got tricked into it, but they still were actively participating in the imbalance.

Saying anything otherwise is just your ignorance and opinion, this is clearly stated stuff. Go watch the Clone Wars.

>>55248811
Not even the whole thing, just the last part of the last season.

>>55248811
I have watched the Clone Wars. I know what I'm talking about. The Jedi lost their way, and did some real stupid things.

But the imbalance /was not their fault/.

To proclaim otherwise is /your/ ignorance.

Also, according to George and literally everyone else at LucasFilm, the prophecy wasn't the destruction of both the Jedi and the Sith, it was the destruction of the Sith. Which Anakin performed - whereas at best he killed maybe 3% of the Jedi, in a war that was being planned before he was even discovered by the greater galactic society.

Yoda has always admitted (except to Luke, ironically enough) that the Jedi had issues. He openly states in the prequels that the Jedi have become arrogant.

But this idea that they're the ones causing the problems in the galaxy is outright wrong.

What I've said is in no way contradicted by Yoda's journey there in the last three episodes of TCW.

>>55248903
Guess we will find out at the end of the year since that appears to be the focus of the next film, and the new canon hints at some greater force looming besides the political struggles.

>>55248903
>But the imbalance /was not their fault/.

Since I can't find Yoda's actual line, here's a quote from the wiki synopsis.

>"Yoda then claims that act of the Jedi fighting the Clone Wars has probably already caused the war to be lost"

It's outright stated. This isn't about opinion, this is a line from the actual canon.

>But this idea that they're the ones causing the problems in the galaxy is outright wrong.

>No u!
They didn't intend to cause the problems, but they still did. This is what is said. I don't know what else you want. Please rewatch the Yoda arc again and realize how you're wrong.

>Also, according to George and literally everyone else at LucasFilm, the prophecy wasn't the destruction of both the Jedi and the Sith

Yet it did destroy both the Jedi and Sith. I don't really care what George intended, because in the end he let Dave Filoni write and produce most of the show, and then canonized it. The series is bigger than Lucas now.

>>55249077
I suspect the same thing,, we'll get an direct answer to why the Force also let the Jedi fall as well as the Sith in the next film.

>>55249177
>>"Yoda then claims that act of the Jedi fighting the Clone Wars has probably already caused the war to be lost"
>It's outright stated. This isn't about opinion, this is a line from the actual canon.
I see this as more Yoda admitting that the Jedi got duped into fighting, and the Emperor used it as a way to destroy the jedi, not the jedi losing spiritually or metaphorically.
>>55249177
>They didn't intend to cause the problems, but they still did.
What problems did they cause? The only thing you could say is that they weren't proactive enough or competent enough.

I really still only see it as good vs. evil, nothing in the thread has really changed my view.

>>55249297
>not the jedi losing spiritually or metaphorically.

>The peacekeepers go to war.
>Not losing spiritually or metaphorically.

>What problems did they cause?

THE WAR.

>The only thing you could say is that they weren't proactive enough or competent enough.

The whole point is that they shouldn't have been active at all. They failed as soon as they got hustled into join the war. They literally lost their way.

>I really still only see it as good vs. evil, nothing in the thread has really changed my view.

It is good vs evil, but the message isn't that good is better than evil, it's about balance.

>>55249337
The Jedi didn't cause the war. That was purely Palpatine.

At worst, you could say that the Jedi didn't do enough to stop the war before it really escalated, but they really didn't have enough information to go on to do that.

>It is good vs evil, but the message isn't that good is better than evil, it's about balance.

No, it really isn't. If you're going to bring up Yoda absorbing his dark side self, you have to remember the rest of the important parts about that story - that he had to acknowledge his inner darkness but at the same time reject any power it has over him.

This idea that balance must be 50/50 light dark really isn't a thing supported by the material anywhere.

>>55235108
Be sure to be a fallen light sider and use modified quotes from Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

So, does anyone here actually find these simplistic narratives of good versus evil so interesting that they can't possibly fathom why someone playing a game set in this universe might want to subvert or modify these ideas? Light versus dark is so fucking dull and strips out potential drama from the setting by making it so one side is always in the wrong forever.

>>55249398
You can do black and white morality without it being dull. Simple morality doesn't preclude interesting or dynamic characters.

>>55249416
That doesn't invalidate my criticism. The fact Darth Vader was fun doesn't mean a lot of the drama was stripped out by the fact he couldn't possibly under any circumstances be considered in the right, thus stripping any capacity out to empathize with the character out of the picture.

I know for a fact if I somehow got roped into Star Wars, I would want to ignore that good versus evil crap as much as possible.

>>55249449
You can play Star Wars without that moralistic stuff - but only if you don't use the Force in your campaigns, or accept that what you're doing goes against nearly 40 years of established material about the nature of the Force.

The EU also established a fair number of Force traditions that were outside the bounds of the holy samurai-wizards and fallen paladins and evil wizards of the OT. You could always look at those as well, but a fair number of them violate the "spirit" of the Force as shown in the films.

>>55249337
>The whole point is that they shouldn't have been active at all. They failed as soon as they got hustled into join the war. They literally lost their way.
What should they have done, nothing? Then the emperor and the dark side would win and come to destroy the jedi anyway.
>Shouldn't have been active at all... lost their way
I think they got forced into the decision and really didn't have an alternative
>Go to war- Lose their way
>Don't go to war- Get fucking merc'd after the war

>>55249497
not the person you linked to but I think it's completely alright to ignore the moralistic stuff or even change it.

At this point the universe has had input from so many different people and has had inconsistent themes; so why not just change the philosophy? I mean I only like it for the setting anyway.
>Let dark side be about power and strength above all else
>let the light side be about serenity and altruism above all else
>plenty of room for shades of grey in the middle

>>55249497
>only if you don't use the Force

So only if you don't use one of the biggest features of the setting that sets it apart as a setting.

accept that what you're doing goes against nearly 40 years of established material about the nature of the Force.

But why's this matter? It's 40 years of material from a setting primarily designed to sell copious amounts of merchandise. This isn't changing the narrative of Crime and Punishment we're talking about here.

>the "spirit" of the Force

Is a boring good/evil narrative. Which again, does anyone seriously think that shit's so interesting that they can't fathom why someone would want to subvert it (OP being an example here)?

>>55249370
>The Jedi didn't cause the war.

Takes two to fight a war.

>that he had to acknowledge his inner darkness but at the same time reject any power it has over him.

So, some sort of compromise between your inner good and evils. Almost like some sort of... balance?!

>>55249517
>What should they have done, nothing? Then the emperor and the dark side would win and come to destroy the jedi anyway.

The winning move was not to play. The war was a front in order to destroy the Jedi spiritually. The Jedi's role was always supposed to be of diplomacy and peace, and if not that, acceptance.

>Go to war- Lose their way
>Don't go to war- Get fucking merc'd after the war

Being a Zen Buddhist pacifist is kind of hard, huh? To bad they failed their shit test and all ended up dead anyway. In reality their choice was dead and accepted by the force, or dead and not. They chose wrong and paid for it.

>>55249550
Even power and strength, and serenity and altruism don't need to strictly relate to good versus evil either. Power can be used to good ends, and altruism can be the motive behind horrible actions.

>>55249572
>Takes two to fight a war.

And the war wasn't started by the Jedi. The war was in its earliest planning stages before the Jedi were even aware that there was a dark side threat.

>So, some sort of compromise between your inner good and evils. Almost like some sort of... balance?!

That is not what that means, and you know it. It's a rejection of one side's power.

>The winning move was not to play. The war was a front in order to destroy the Jedi spiritually. The Jedi's role was always supposed to be of diplomacy and peace, and if not that, acceptance.

This is also clearly wrong, and you should know that as well given how it's covered in TCW and Rebels. The Jedi were set up to lose, even if they didn't get into the war. This was a lose-lose situation specifically set up for this purpose. Either they fight in the war, lose their way, get shit-talked and watch their popularity plummet before getting wiped out at the war's conclusion (as it happened in canon and Legends both), or they sit back and let the war happen, get shit-talked as the "guardians of truth and justice" do nothing to help the Republic they're supposed to help, lose popularity, and probably have to go underground anyway even if they don't get wiped out.

>>55249579
Fair enough. My point was just that I think the setting is cool and think changing some of the major themes/tons of the universe is alright.
>>55249572
>Takes two to fight a war.
There would have been a war anyway, the clones would have lost
>So, some sort of compromise between your inner good and evils. Almost like some sort of... balance?!
But it's not really balance, balance is like 50/50, that was more about acknowledging that he has some measure of darkness within him but pushing it back.
>>55249572
>The winning move was not to play. The war was a front in order to destroy the Jedi spiritually.
If they hadn't gotten killed in the wars who's to say they couldn't go back to a more diplomatic role? Their republic needed their strength to win/live.

>>55227141
>except in legends
Nothing good about start wars is canon anymore. What's your point?

>>55224095
I believe you mean "green Jedi"

>>55249661
>Fair enough. My point was just that I think the setting is cool and think changing some of the major themes/tons of the universe is alright.

Well, I mean, we're on /tg/, that should be what you do with a game anyway.

Like, this isn't a setting that was created to spur thought, illuminate the human condition, or express artistic sentiment. By the fact you've watched the media, procured the merch, and funneled some money into the studio's pockets, you've lived up to the purpose of the setting already.

>>55234326
I really hope they do this and stick to it.

I want people to acknowledge the force, not worship a cult with glowsticks.

Jedi and Sith are part of the same great mistake and they need to be buried together.

>>55249651
>And the war wasn't started by the Jedi.

It didn't matter. In the end, they gave up their ideals in order to protect the innocent, instead of trusting in the force. This threw them out of balance with the force.

>It's a rejection of one side's power.

It's an acceptance too. It is apart of him, but does not control him. That is balance.

>This was a lose-lose situation specifically set up for this purpose.

Yes, but, they still gave up their ideals for it. We aren't talking about blame or missed oppratunities, we're talking about how the Jedi gave up their beliefs in order to do what they thought was right, which was still wrong.. You're talking about pragmatism, which is exactly why the Jedi lost their way. They were never meant to be pragmatic or active in the universe at large. They were meant to let things happen as they came.

It's no coincidence that Bendu is the most powerful force wielder we've seen in the new canon, and his philosophy is to remain absent from the struggles of the universe at large. This is what the Jedi used to believe in, and in their philosophy is the right path, but they gave that up to be crusaders for justice. A noble goal, but in the end the one that destroyed them and only brought more war and suffering.

>>55249661
>Takes two to fight a war.

The Jedi vs Sith war.

>Their republic needed their strength to win/live.

Then the right move was to let them die. The Jedi were not meant to be soldiers.

Just a reminder, when dealing with a deity like entity like the force, sometimes the right move is to stick to the ideals it tells you to follow, and not really worry about the material world at large. Doing what's best for the law, justice, peace, or even the innocent, isn't what's best for your God. Especially when your God tells you in advance "Don't worry, I got this" with a prophesy.

Since the Jedi are based on Taoism, wouldn't the correct thing to do been to have lain low and kept their heads out of it? I know at least with the Tao Te Ching, written during the warring states period, the general message seems to be "don't stick your neck out, because all that's going to happen is you're going to get your shit killed over something stupid" which is pretty much what happened to the Jedi.

>>55245589
Terminators can flip now, get with the times.

>>55249794
>lain

Layed. Oops.

>>55235022
It's not from the EU.

>>55249572
>Takes two to fight a war.
Are you fucking stupid? The Jedi were defending themselves from literal cartoon villains.

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>>55250024
>Are you fucking stupid?

>>55249764
>It's an acceptance too. It is apart of him, but does not control him. That is balance.
No, there's no "balance between right and wrong" bullshit involved. He was accepting that he had the potential to do bad things, not pretending that bad is good or claiming that "balancing" them is what's needed. The actual "balance" that they seek is on the "good" side of the good-versus-evil scale, not the middle. Evil is whatever causes imbalance in the harmony of the universe for selfish ends. They're not using the golden mean fallacy.

>>55224095
Technically, if they are greys, they are neither Jedi or Sith....

>>55235022
Best star wars is dark horse star wars.

>>55250102
>Supressing his darkness actually made it stronger and got his entire religion destroyed.
>The lesson is that's ok.

Think about what you're arguing for, cause I don't think you are.

I played a "grey jedi" once. He summed up to "Wants things to be better, will do fucked up things to achieve it"

Examples include
>Giving experimental medical technology to a crimelord to get information about MacGuffin, then blew up crimelord and sparked a gang war to ensure no one crimelord got too powerful
>Broke multiple fingers of an Imperial officer to get information. After running out of fingers, he forcehealed the man and started over. Said information was about the Death Star's construction.
>Dominated numerous mooks into killing their friends then themselves. This was the go to surprise round move.
>SO MANY people force pushed off buildings, railings, vehicles, all to splatter on the ground below.

He did a lot of fucked up things over the course of the adventure, but always for a good reason. He never did it for pleasure, for power, or for wealth. He did it because it needed to be done. In the epilogue, he was a broken man, lost in a bottle and troubled by the ghosts of his past.

>>55248685
>Hell, his line is "strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can imagine"
As in, "strike me down and I will become one with the force, which is a state of being you can't even comprehend due to your folly."

This isn't complex stuff, and I haven't met anyone who didn't actually get it on their first viewing.

>>55248701
>EU shit

>>55249572
Except the war was literally 99% just cutting down droids to protect actual living beings. There's no indication I'm aware of that they were undergoing a mass spiritual degradation apart from them having seen some shit.

>>55250077
Anon, if you knew anything about Gandhi, you wouldn't post such stupid shit. He himself said that non-violence only worked on the British because they were reasonable people, and he wouldn't even attempt it against the nazis.

>>55250145
There's a difference between accepting that dark feelings exist and pretending that you should let them control your actions because "balance".

>>55240495
>I dunno man, only a Sith deals in absolutes.
>There is no emotion, there is peace.
>There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
>There is no passion, there is serenity.
>(There is no chaos, there is harmony.)(*)
>There is no death, there is the Force.
Odan-Urr is the most successful Sith in history, as he started the corruption of the Jedi Order with the change of the Jedi Code to this from
>Emotion, yet peace.
>Ignorance, yet knowledge.
>Passion, yet serenity.
>Chaos, yet harmony.
>Death, yet the Force.

>>55227006
>It has to do with the origins of the Force users in the EU.
Funny that what you wrote is nothing like what happened in EU.

>>55234731
He wasn't. His maverick attitude towards the council was making them worry he'll become full Grey Jedi, but he always came back.

He was just one step from going full way like disciples of An'ya Kuro
>Fuck the Council, only Living Force can order me around

>>55237557
>Thing is, you can't have just positive emotions. Negative emotions are part of a normal, healthy emotional life.
Your entire post is wrong on principle of assuming that Dark Side users are about emotion and not PASSION, which is a step further than having emotion.

Also, Jedi are supposed to be compassionate and love people, but instead are detached attack dog of the Republic, that throws them at problems, often without first checking if it isn't a false flag operation.

And positive emotions like love is the sole reason Darth Vader could become Anakin Skywalker again.

Is the jedi code even canon anymore?

>>55238089
>It's about rejecting the concept of harmony and letting your emotions control you, then calling that "freedom".
You fail at being a Sith.This isn't about being edgelord. Just compare final line of the Jedi Code to this one
>There is no Death, there is the Force
>The Force shall Free me
Jedi are giving themselves to the Will of the Force, Sith are manipulating Force to THEIR will. Jedi accepts death and becomes one with the Force, and the ultimate ambition of a Sith is to conquer death and live forever, which they could achieve by their control over the Force.

This is why Darth Plagueis could manipulate life and bring dead back to life, despite the fact that it is Light Side that can heal, not the Dark Side. Because reviving dead is against the nature, and Sith are all about breaking chains like those.

>>55224858
Yeah, and Luke was VERY FUCKING CLOSE to becoming a Dark Jedi.

>>55249970
IN this case, it was in fact. "Gray Jedi" is an EU term. And before you reference the TPM novelization, that is not canon. None of the I-VI novelizations are - at first Del Rey was saying "the movie novelizations are canon, but only where they align with the films" (which would actually exclude the "gray Jedi" bit since it's not in the film or any of its deleted scenes), but they later went back on that decision and said that the movie novelizations of I-VI are no longer considered canon at all.

>>55253259
It is. It's used (actually, both versions, "the X yet Y" and "there is no X, there is Y") in the Kanan comic from last year.

>>55242092
>He was a bounty hunter, and supposedly a badass.
He was a shitty bounty hunter.

Of all the scum on that Star Destroyer, he's the only one that Vader has to tell off for previous fuckups.

>>55249177
>Since I can't find Yoda's actual line, here's a quote from the wiki synopsis.
That line is designed to recall the idea that the Jedi are supposed to be peacekeepers, not soldiers, in conjunction with the discussion taking place around him at the time.

>>55249517
>What should they have done, nothing? Then the emperor and the dark side would win and come to destroy the jedi anyway.
This is true. The Clone Wars were a lose-lose situation for Jedi.
Join and be seen as warmongers.
Not join and be seen as people who value their ideology over the safety of the citizens of the Republic that they can protect with their skills, as their education requires them to have knowledge of tactics.

The problem of the Jedi is that they are incapable of planning long time strategy without Force visions, which was impossible due to Dark Side clouding it, and the fact that the Jedi were preparing to repeat the same war they fought 1000 years ago, while Sith evolved and changed into something different.

>>55249572
>he winning move was not to play. The war was a front in order to destroy the Jedi spiritually. The Jedi's role was always supposed to be of diplomacy and peace, and if not that, acceptance.
And forming strike teams for "aggressive diplomacy" whenever peace is not an option.
And if they wouldn't lend their abilities, the people of the Republic would hate them for doing nothing when they can do something, so Palpatine would win anyway, and their reputation would be ruined probably more than by participating.

>>55250103
Technically, "Jedi" in this case mean Jedi training, just as one could be Dark Side user and not a Sith, due to lack of Sith knowledge, training, and beliefs, and be referred as a Dark Jedi.
For example, Dark Acolytes of Doku in the Clone Wars are basically Dark Jedi, for they are not true Sith Apprentices of Dooku, nor they were his Shadow Hands (as Darth Maul were to Palpatine, due to Darth Plagueis being alive).

>>55253660
>The problem of the Jedi is that they are incapable of planning long time strategy without Force visions, which was impossible due to Dark Side clouding it

Honestly, the fact that shit was working fine for 1000 years or so and only started to fuck up once Palpatine arrived on the scene and mysteriously around the same time all the Republic and Senate started to turn into a bureaucratic shitheap, would tend to indicate that they were doing pretty fine up until then. Palpatine was just smart enough to stay quiet.

>>55253577
>Of all the scum on that Star Destroyer, he's the only one that Vader has to tell off for previous fuckups.
Or maybe it's because when there is "Dead or Alive", Fett preferred to disintegrate the target, as Empire rarely cared about them being brought alive.

Speaking of that situation, I wonder if Vader simply sensed living people in the asteroid belt, or did he felt Leia and thought it's actually Luke.

>>55253793
How the fuck do you get a DNA read off somebody who's been literally disintegrated?

>>55253787
Probably a bit earlier, if we take Darth Plagueis as canon, and it is considered Legends mostly due to being published not long before Disney did a reboot of EU, and Luceno did a subtle reference to it in Tarkin anyway.

In Darth Plagueis, it is mentioned that Darth Tenebrous and his Twi'lek master created a rift in the Force, that made Jedi feel the Dark Side for the first time in eight centuries. Before that, the presence of the Jedi all around the galaxy was compared to ysalamiri effect for Dark Side users.

So it started there, and was escalating over time. Darth Plagueis probably started influencing Senate a bit earlier, with strategically placed bribes.

>>55253808
I suppose his helmet has a built in camera.
Or he kept a small enough part to be a genetic marker while still confirming death.

Still, Boba Fett had to have issues to do disintegrations on his targets, instead of simply killing.

>>55253846
The Plagueis novel isn't canon not only because it was released before the Disney buyout and them decanonizing the Expanded Universe, t's not canon because it actually contradicts things that George had in mind for Plagueis and the Sith. Pablo's said as much.

In canon, Plagueis died sometime before the events of TPM, unlike in the book where he dies the night that Palpatine is installed as Chancellor.

>>55234325
I think I remember Clone Wars having a youngling Wookie

>>55253923
>Pablo's said as much
And you believe that cockholster?

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>>55224373
Plo Koon used force lightning for good, because Plo Koon doesn't give a fuck.

>>55226026
Their problem is that their practice doesn't and 90% just decide to go out of their way to be the biggest cunts they can.

>>55253976
I believe him far more than I do the random people here who have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to what's canon and what's not and why.

>>55242198
There's a wookie bad guy in Dark Empire who forces Chewie to escape from the bar under a hail of blaster bolts and barstools.

>>55251635
>both regular Canon and Disney Canon

>>55235032
I miss the Warlords era. I don't miss all the dumb shit about the later generations of Solos and Skywalkers.

>>55253923
>t's not canon because it actually contradicts things that George had in mind for Plagueis and the Sith. Pablo's said as much.
Well then, perhaps George would do better if he wouldn't hoard all his plans until someone contradicts them.

If you think about it, even the Mortis arc is going against George's view of "Light Side do not exist, as Light Side IS the Force", as Father is basically the balance between Son and Daughter.
Then again, if Daughter embodies Light Side, she's Light Side done right, which very few Jedi managed to be, due to being imprisoned in their own dogma, rules they were changing over time, and adherence to what they view as orthodoxy.

>>55254050
X-Wing series shall be missed.
>yub yub, Commander.

>>55254083
RIP Lieutenant Kettch.

>>55253989
Neither of them make a ton of sense.
>"everyone should be dispassionate and detached and perfectly obedient, to the point where we willingly fight in a war that makes no sense just because we were told to."
>"everyone should be selfish and ruthless, even people who don't like me. I don't want to have perfectly selfless and obedient servants, and in fact I want to be killed by by student even though I'm selfish and don't want to die."

>>55224095
KOTOR 2 was a mistake

>>55256026
What if, rather than try to kill all the Jedi, Palpatine had just come out as a Sith lord immediately after being elected chancellor? Then he'd tell the Jedi something like "I am your lawful commander in chief, with the support of a majority of the people, and you have to do what I say or else destroy the peace you swore to protect for the sake of angry feelings that you're not supposed to have. Your philosophy requires you to serve me, and also my philosophy requires you to serve me. On that much we are agreed."

File: lf1.jpg (129KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

129KB, 1920x1080px

>>55224095
And grey jedi... I suppose... those're off the table as well?

>>55256347
The Jedi philosophy does not, in fact, require them to serve the Chancellor. They serve the Republic, not the Chancellor, and the Sith are the ancient enemy of the Republic. By openly admitting that he is a Sith, and that he has plans to bring an end to the thousand year peace of the Republic, the Jedi have every obligation to remove him from power.

>>55256473
They'd be invading the country they swore to protect for the sake of their own private definitions, thousands of years obsolete. What is a country if not some combination of the people and the government they elect? If Palpatine has the support of both, it takes some serious No True Scotsman to say that he is not an integral part of the Republic.

>>55256602
The Chancellor is head of state. That does not mean he is immune to prosecution, and in fact former Chancellors have been removed from power for less than the crimes that Palpatine is guilty of by the time the war starts.

The Republic as it exists is only there because it was the surviving government after a protracted war with the Sith Empire.

By announcing that he is a Sith, Palpatine is openly declaring that he is an enemy of the Republic that he swore to serve. He has effectively committed high treason at that point, and should be treated as such.

>>55253660
This is why Sheev engineered the whole thing using the Jedi as his pawns. As a broad story even the prequels have good lore, the problems exist the closer you examine it.

>>55237618
>>55237575
>>55237557
These niggas get it.

I don't know if they get what Star Wars is, but they understand what it should be.

>>55241968
(You) must be fun at parties.

>>55256683
Sith are nkt enemies of the Republic by definition. To say otherwise is the most backward sort of tautological dogmatism.

>>55257188
Yes, they are, in fact, enemies of the Republic. The last major war which devastated the galaxy was between the Sith and the Republic.

To say anything otherwise is to deny history.

>>55257269
That was almost exactly 1000 years ago. That's like still being sore against Mongolia for Genghis Khan

>>55257355
No, not really. It's the equivalent of the US President coming out as being secretly a member of the Confederate States of America, or the British PM coming as being a part of the Nazi party. It's unacceptable and completely against all the oaths that they swore when coming to office.

>>55257486
It's more like coming out as Satanist. Likely to be unpopular, but it really only signifies opposition to one religious group and not any particular state. The Republic is just a big country; it's rhe Jedi that the Sith hate, and the two are far from one and the same, as shown by the millennium or more of dwindling support for the Jedi and disbelief in their religion until it has only a few thousand adherents out of trillions.

>>55257816
No, that's not true at all. Reminder that the Sith had an Empire which fought with the Republic and was thought destroyed; Palpatine outing himself as a Sith is an acknowledgement that he is carrying out the legacy of that Sith Empire, and by openly admitting that he has plans to bring an end to democracy and the Republic if the Jedi don't toe the line for him, they have every obligation to bring an end to his administration.

>>55258016
An obligation to whom? To save the citizens of the Republic from themselves? That's comically undemocratic. You can't fight for democracy if it makes you fight against the majority of the people. That's a contradiction, isn't it? Their only course of action is to lay down and die. It's what everyone is asking of them, and they're good slaves who do what's asked of them.

>>55258377
Anon, this whole line of thought is about Palpatine openly acknowledging himself being a Sith and openly stating he's going to bring an end to peace if they don't toe his line.

And given that they're not going to follow an openly acknowledged Sith, that means he means to eradicate them and bring an end to peace.

That's what this whole line of replies is based on.

He openly threatens them with the possible destruction of their order and definitely with the end of peace. That means that, regardless of the number of supporters (most of whom probably wouldn't care that he's a Sith, as most of the public doesn't seem to remember much and in Legends he had the records of the Sith and Jedi wiped from any public access and canon even has a historian who lost his job because he knew about the old Sith threat), but they WOULD care that he's threatening to bring an end to a millennium of peace if the Jedi don't do exactly as he says.

So yes, the Jedi are fully within their rights to bring him down if he threatens the peace and stability (you know, their whole role as peacekeepers and the whole "guardians of truth and justice in the Republic" thing they have going on). The Sith have historically been... well, there's no sugarcoating it, the Sith have never had a democracy, their Empires of the past and everything about them is completely the opposite of the peace and justice that the Republic and the Jedi stand for.

So yes, it's entirely within their rights to stop Palpatine's reign if he openly states that he is a Sith.

>>55249398
Fuck you, I do