Ugh

>>55178043
>inb4 Arthur C. Clarke

>mfw magicfags try to say that fighters should just be normal realistic humans who can't do fantastical things

>>55178104
>mfw some people don't give their martials better gear and more magic gear in general to allow them to be more comparable to a spellcaster.

>>55178121
>mfw people miss the point of inherent martial skill and need item Christmas trees to equal caster superiority

>>55178043
>mfw realismfags try to apply the real world's rules to something that is clearly not the real world
>mfw the actual rules of the world are internally consistent anyways, but do not match with reality

>>55178043
>Ugh
BBEG

>>55178121
>mfw the caster player gets magical gear too that maintains the power level disparity
>mfw retards can't wrap their minds around this basic concept
>mfw you

>>55178121
>Fighters magically find better gear
>The gods favour martials but are too lazy to make them good so they just have them luck into finding magical weapons

>>55178299
B-b-but muh limited view of science I learn from the internet?!?!

>>55178355
Used to be that the best gear was actually strictly limited to Warrior classes only.

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>mfw /tg/ does or talks about fucking anything ever

>>55178441
Which is stupid.

>>55178445
>mfw summer pretends to be old

>>55178121
>mfw people won't put points into glorious crafting and enchanting skills.

>>55178299
>his magic is internally consistent.

Shit taste faggot.

/tg/ seems to be extra shirt right now

>>55178043
>mfw antirealismfags shot themselves when we apply it's magic bullshit rules to martials too
>mfw they cry "REEEEE you can't do that with a sword!" despite wanting to throw fire out of their hands

>>55179002
I'm pretty sure the anti-realism people are different from the caster supremacists

>>55178118
>third post is off-topic /pol/shit

Ugh.

>>55179002
Stop false flagging Wizardfag, we know about your cancerous autism that you spread to all the little girls and boys.

>>55178121
>mfw people don't strictly enforce the material components needed by their casters.

>>55178043
This is honestly a big pet peeve for me too. Magic needs some manner of limits and internal logic, but there's no reason at all that such needs to be based on real world science as opposed to some other paradigm (such as one of the various pre- or pseudo-scientific frameworks people have come with over the millennia).

>>55178993
It's the end of summer. They're getting that last spawning frenzy in before they head down stream.

>>55178964
The consistent part is that it'll fuck you up.

Nothing is wrong with martials

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>>55178043
magic isn't real! stop believvin in it

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>>55178043
>Playing an RPG with magic
why would you do this to yourself?

>>55178121
>mfw someone doesn't give their spellcasters small and reasonable abilities to make them more comparable to martials

>>55178043

Let's take something basic like super-speed. Sure reaction time is a problem, whatever. To be as fast as the Flash, you'd need to deal with friction not burning up your clothing, friction not destroying the road, the fact that you couldn't displace air that fast without igniting nuclear reactions, the fact that slight perturbations in the ground would launch you into outer space, the fact that you'd inevitably hit outer space anyway because gravity isn't high enough to keep you on the ground and you would just fly off into a tangent, the fact that he wouldn't be able to even see moving at relativistic speeds, how durable do his legs have to be, to survive his speed? The repeated impacts, at a high enough frequency, would simply destroy his legs. And that's not talking about any of the problems the Flash would have trying to interact with the world while moving at super-speed. Even if he's not blowing people up by causing nuclear reaction in the air, or blowing holes through people because of the ridiculous sonic booms that would occur around him, how is he even touching people let alone picking up without utterly destroying them? And then there's the fact that The Flash routinely moves faster than light. This necessitates that the Flash must use physics that are strictly different from our own, because although it's not outside of our current model of physics to have a particle moving faster than light, it is impossible for a particle to accelerate to faster than light speeds. And I don't mean impossible in a practical sense, I mean that yothey are hitting with a force which is completely imaginary.

>Fiction is dumb.

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>>55178043
I dunno man, it doesn't seem like a bad universal process for gaining knowledge.
Notice how nothing is setting specific.

>>55178043
>apply real life science to magic
>>55183817
>>Fiction is dumb.
No, anon is dumb.

Fiction presents a premise.
The writer and readers must accept and carry that premise.

Everything you said about the Flash sounds accurate.
And yet, if presented with a world where the Flash exists, something must give.
You can cay, "Well, it's dumb, that's it.", but that is lazy rejection of presented facts.
When presented with apparently contradictory facts, you must either find a theory to reconcile them or, at least, accept them.

I'll leave you with this:
>Sikozu Svala Shanti Sugaysi Shanu: Don't you see? No. No! This isn't happening because it is not possible.
>Dominar Rygel XVI: Your brain isn't functioning. Do you think this is all just a hallucination? Do you like that explanation better, hmm?
>Sikozu: No, but I simply cannot comprehend...
>Rygel: Neither can I. Who cares? We're here, they did it, and that's that. You consider yourself intelligent?
>Sikozu: Yes, I do.
>Rygel: Then stop behaving like a child.
>Sikozu: I am not a child!
>Rygel: No, you're an infant! You've studied but you haven't experienced. You know nothing of life!
>Sikozu: And you do?
>Rygel: I've been around long enough to know how ignorant I am. I don't assume the universe obeys my preconceptions. Huh! But I know a frelling fact when it hits me in the face!

>>55183835
This is a good point though.
OP should have said "Applying real world general scientific theories and principles to magic" or some such.
Applying real life science is always good.

>>55178043
>meta gamers

ftfy

>>55183835
"science" commonly refers to a body of knowledge gathered by the scientific method and not just the method itself. when someone says "climate science" for instance, they're often not talking about the process of studying the climate, but what we actually know about the climate, which is specific to the real world. you should be able to figure out which the OP is talking about.

>>55183817
The answer to all that is Speed Force.

>>55184840
Which is a specific flavor of "Wizarddidit."

>>55178043
Butthurt because science kills magic?

Everybody's going mfw but nobody is posting their faces. Where are all your faces?!

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>>55186629
Seeing how magic bends the laws of reality while science must obey them so...

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>>55186668
>fishing for yous this hard

>>55186694
Science is observation, and observations can change if data is discovered that alters the way we see things.

Ergo, magic bends laws and science explains why those laws were bent, killing magic in the process because it becomes science.

>>55186762
Can you speak to spirits and exorcize demons with science?

>>55186762
That's not how it works, science sees magic as irrelevant.

>>55186795
We technically have machines that can detect spirits as an electromagnetic frequency and demons are also affected by salt, iron, and prayer.

With enough research, both of those things would be possible to perform utilizing science.
>>55186832
Magic works because it can't be explained, science works because it explains how things work, ergo, science kills magic because it explains how things work, which means that it can be experimented upon and go through trials until we're able to replicate the results.

It's like how magicians are impressive until you learn how they perform their card tricks, then it just becomes legerdemain, not dissimilar to that of a pickpocket.

>>55186762
You generally can't observe most of magic.
Some old guy with a beard wiggles his fingers and says a word that matches no known language and something across the room moves. There is nothing else observable in this situation except for the end result. Make a hypothesis all you want, but you have to reconcile it with a witch who can make magic potions by mixing leaves and frog legs and stirring it in a specific pattern, and a shaman who can see the future just by getting high as fuck. None of them have other observable effects and cannot be reproduced by other individuals.

>>55186883
>Some old guy with a beard wiggles his fingers and says a word that matches no known language and something across the room moves.
He is simply using Extra-Sensory Perception to affect the magnetic field around an object, allowing him to move the object from afar without actually touching it.

We technically have machines that can replicate the process, though their accuracy would probably be comparable to that of an acolyte until we perform enough trials to utilize fine motor functions.

>>55186883
It depends on the magic system but the examples you just offered are definitely scienceable, if the wizard can consistently pull off magic then you can probably analyze it

>>55186947
you can analyze it, you just might not get useful results.

>>55186962
Every scientific theory in the world started out as a hypothesis anon. If the results can be replicated and analyzed, we can eventually reach a breakthrough.

>>55186962
I mean it depends on the specifics but you could at least learn magic with the scientific method if it's a thing that humans can consistently use

>>55186933
Except he isn't. The machine might be comparable in effect, but the phenomena he uses is not detectable by any technological method. There's an observable kinetic force, but no observable source of that force.

>>55186985
Only if you can find something beyond the most immediate situation. Some guy wiggles his fingers and says a word and a thing happens. You wiggle your fingers and say a word and nothing happens. The missing link is not observable, because it relies on something beyond the senses of any person or machine you could make, and probably not replicable.

>>55187037
I mean we're talking about fiction so it depends on how you set up your setting but I would say that if magic sees consistent use by humans though that it's reliable enough to be scienced, theoretically though you could have a magic system that defys observation

>>55187020
We have many ways of detecting ESP using our modern technology anon, it's an effect that projects brainwaves to manipulate the state of matter around the user.

Sometimes it can be used to allow the user to meld through solid objects by manipulating a substance's density, sometimes it can be used to affect the energy level of an area to produce fire, sometimes it can be used to project thoughts into others, etc. the point is that ESP is an observable trait that some people have access to, and if it's an ability that can be learned, it's an ability that can be replicated.

>>55187081
If something defies observation, obviously that means that our observations were incorrect and must be altered to account for this new data.

It's why most of us no longer believe that the earth is flat or that cancer is caused by evil spirits, as opposed to pathogens in the air and the things that we ingest.

>>55186881
You don't understand, you see magic as non-existent, you want science to make magic look like nonsense. You sound like you're butthurt or something.

>>55187112
Eh, since we're talking fantasy and anything gos it would be easy to come up with a system of magic you couldn't use the scientific method to understand

>>55187142
Magic doesn't exist irl though, it is a bit autistic to insist that magic in a fictional setting is understandable though, then again you would have to be very careful about how you designed your magic system if you wanted it to be unknowable

>>55187149
This. I don't understand why the fuck do these people need to put too much science in a fucking fantasy setting.

>>55187185
I mean if your players have access to magic that probably implies it's logically consistent, also physics is just easier to world build around in depth since it's a lot more detailed than what you can probably come up with

>>55178043
Depends what you mean by science. If they assume real-life scientific theories apply to the setting when there is evidence to the contrary, then they might be stupid. If you think the scientific method can't be applied to a setting just because of magic, then you're definitely stupid.

>>55179130
>mfw people do that but then you realize feats that let you ignore that and spells that are verbal and somatic only while being uberpowerful still exist

>>55187171
Holy fucking shit anon, nice job of you stating the fucking obvious. That's why I'm wondering why the fuck are you inserting too much real life shit in a fucking fantasy setting.

>>55187228
You know there are multiple people in this thread right? I'm not the same anon. Also there's nothing wrong with realism in fantasy

>>55187142
>you see magic as non-existent
Magic is not non-existent, it's merely phenomenon that we are not technologically advanced enough to explain in practical terms.

For example, the ability to converse with another person from across long distances would be considered a third level spell in the Forgotten Realms, yet with our current technology, we can theoretically converse with anyone we want, assuming we know their contact information.
>>55187149
There is no fantasy setting where "anything goes" because that would imply that magic within that setting is so inconsistent that nobody is able to use it.

When you cast a fireball, you will always gather heat energy into a very focused point that will detonate and damage anything within a certain radius from its point of origin.

If magic is so unknown that a fireball could be anything from a spark to a meteor, magic-users wouldn't be possible because everyone who uses it would be dead before they would learn how to utilize it.

The real reason magic should follow rules, "be a science", is so that people can work with it. By establishing limits and logics, it gives credit to the audience, readers or players, letting them speculate on what can happen and immersing them into the work through interaction.

>>55187275
>If magic is so unknown that a fireball could be anything from a spark to a meteor, magic-users wouldn't be possible because everyone who uses it would be dead before they would learn how to utilize it.

right, but the underlying process could still remain a mystery regardless of how much you study it, and you would have no way of harnessing it with technology. you wouldn't *understand* it.

>>55187275
You're right that if magic wasn't scienceable then magic users wouldn't exist, that doesn't mean you couldn't theoretically write a setting like that though, you would just have to keep magic out of the player's hands

>>55187209
Logically consistent within itself doesn't mean that it's in any way observable or reproducible outside of its own established methods.
If there's literally no physical difference between a magic user and a mundane person, and no observable source of magic, how the fuck are you going to observe it and reproduce it?

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>>55178043
>mfw players gripe about introducing black powder in a late medieval setting

THEY HAD BOMBARD CANNONS DURING THAT TIME FUCKERS

>>55187312
There are settings where magic use is directly tied to bloodline. You have to literally have the blood of Satan himself to use magic. Sometimes there are other physical differences between people with that bloodline(s) and people without, but often, magic is the only observable difference.

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>powergamer tries to bring his bullshit down to a molecular level so he can metagame while he powergames

>>55187321
Depends on the rules of the magic system, if we're talking DnD magic you can science the shit out of it, of course we're talking fiction so it all depends on the setting

>>55187321
By experimenting with various methods of observation until we find one that can tell us something about it. Stick the wizard in an MRI scanner while they cast, point a Geiger counter at them, bring in some psuedoscience detection methods, keep on going until we figure out something that can tell us more about these invisible forces.

>>55187311
>right, but the underlying process could still remain a mystery regardless of how much you study it, and you would have no way of harnessing it with technology. you wouldn't *understand* it.
> that doesn't mean you couldn't theoretically write a setting like that though, you would just have to keep magic out of the player's hands
You cannot use something without understanding how it works in some capacity anon. You could theorhetically know how to start a car and get it to move from one area to another, but if you don't understand how to operate the vehicle effectively, you'll most likely kill yourself or others the longer you use it for transportation.

We as a species have evolved to the point where we can observe and utilize our environment. It wouldn't make sense if magic could exist without anyone within the setting being able to explain how it works in some capacity, especially when we can replicate common magical effects using modern day technology.

>>55187321
The same way that we learned how to detect everything else that we couldn't detect at first, experimentation until we produce a working magic radar device.

I mean, how long do you think it took us to detect radio waves before we learned how to utilize them to play music over your car's FM stereo.

>>55187340
Not to mention the Chinese have had gunpowder for what, 1000 years or something? It's not a new technology, it's literally older than soap by three centuries!

>>55187378
The MRI scanner finds exactly the same thing as when a mundane person performs the same hand wiggling and vocal noises. The geiger counter finds nothing. Psuedoscience methods might find *something*, but it's unlikely to be useful.

>>55187415
That might not be doable depending on how the magic works in the setting, of course as magic is traditionally depicted you could probably do it

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>>55187349
I like settings where magic only comes from deities. Where all magic are incantations that simply means that you're asking permission from a certain deity to have a portion of that power(and there's a chance that they won't like you because of what you did). A high risk-low reward kind of thing, where the magical power is something science can always disregard as "comic-book sci-fi nonsense"

>>55187387
>You cannot use something without understanding how it works in some capacity anon.

maybe we have a different idea of "understanding". if you're born with the ability to wiggle your fingers and shoot fireballs, maybe you could say you understand what you're doing on a superficial level (you're wiggling your fingers), but you have no guarantee of understanding anything on a deeper level (why is this causing a fireball to appear?) even with all the analysis in the world.

>>55187436
If magic is able to produce the same effect each time it's used, it's more than doable.

>>55187468
Only if there is some kind of technology that can actually interact with it.
If there's no way to produce a "magic wave" or whatever you want to call it other than being born with the ability, then that's it. You can't build a machine to do it.
Magic is, by definition, outside of normal physics. Its existence in no way means that it can be reproduced outside of its own internal methods.

>>55187465
In order to use the fireball effectively, you must know a) how to utilize it consistently, b) how far it can be fired before detonation, and c) how far the area of effect extends.

If you don't understand these three factors, you're more likely to kill yourself and others from the first time you cast than you are to utilize it during an actual combat scenario.

>>55187468
If magic is complete undetectable except for in its effects you might run into a wall where the farthest you're able to get is which rituals produce which effects and which groups of people can perform magic, of course that would assume the absence of anything like limited casting, anti magic materials, and meta magic spells that allow you to interact with the magic itself

>>55187501
you're still just describing the effect, not the mechanism.

and the definition of "science" is being stretched a bit at this point. cavemen knew how to walk around without falling over and breaking their neck but i wouldn't call that science.

>>55187493
>Only if there is some kind of technology that can actually interact with it.
Which is possible once we gain a proper understanding of how that works.
>If there's no way to produce a "magic wave" or whatever you want to call it other than being born with the ability, then that's it.
All forms of energy produce some sort of effect in its environment, whether it's heat burning flammable objects, vibrations causing sound, static electricity causing your hair to stand on end, etc.

You can't cast spells infinitely, which means that it runs off some form of energy. If it runs off of energy, it means that you can detect how much is required to cast a spell. If you can detect quantities, then that means that you are only a few steps away from being able to detect and categorize different levels of magic power and at that point it comes down to finding something that reacts strongly enough to magical power to detect a level 1 spell from a level 9 spell.

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>>55187493
>setting where a mage uses science to get away with everything he has done because people would rather listen to a scientific explanation rather than the actual truth that a forbidden spell was used, because afterall, nobody believes in magic.
>setting where science is a puppet that mages/witches use to cover their tracks

>>55187536
>cavemen knew how to walk around without falling over and breaking their neck but i wouldn't call that science.
That's because all organisms are equipped with knowledge on the most basic of functions in order to survive.

It's also why you automatically know how to breathe without having to consciously breathe.

>>55187430
And then you keep on trying more detection methods until you find something that does work and gives useful information. Or do you really expect people to try one or two things and then give up? Really it seems like you're arguing for a very specific setting.

>>55187525
And that is technically no different than our understanding that running an electrical current through a wire that has been looped around an iron nail 6+ times will create a magnet.

>>55187557
>Which is possible once we gain a proper understanding of how that works.
How do you gain a proper understanding of how that works if you can't make a machine that can observe it?
That's circular logic. You need a machine that is capable of interacting with it to make a machine that is capable of interacting with it.

As for the rest of your points, you're assuming that the effects cut both ways. Being able to measure the kinetic momentum of a magic push doesn't mean you can push backwards and make magic. Same with the energy requirement. The mage runs out of mana. You can only tell how much mana he has when he runs out of it, because we're back to that whole "can't make a machine that interacts with it" thing. Even if you extrapolate how much he starts with by measuring a bunch of different spells and their different drains, that doesn't help you, because you have no way of interacting with that energy. You can't increase it or decrease it outside of casting spells. You can't transfer it. You can't even directly observe it.

>>55187623
Look just stop trying to use science on magic the two are fundamentally incompatible ok

>>55187623
There's no such thing as useful information, because you cannot interact with it, reproduce it, or transfer it, and technology can't observe it.

>>55187640
/thread

>>55187639
>How do you gain a proper understanding of how that works if you can't make a machine that can observe it?
The same way that we went from computers that were the size of atriums to smartphones that can access the internet while still being small enough to fit into most pockets.

Experimentation, Observation, and Implementation.
>Being able to measure the kinetic momentum of a magic push doesn't mean you can push
backwards and make magic.
>You can't increase it or decrease it outside of casting spells.
>You can't even directly observe it.
>You can't transfer it.
Not yet anyways.

Y'know back then, people probably said the same thing about gravity.

>>55187646
Sure but in that case your magic system would look radically different than what you find in most fantasy settings

>>55187640
>>55187673
The only reason you believe them to be incompatible is because you lack the understanding to note the similarities between them.

>>55178993

It's because people bite the bait. /tg/ is sliding.

>>55187676
>The same way that we went from computers that were the size of atriums
You can't even get to this point without something that can observe the magic. You have nothing that can observe the magic.

>>55187676
You realize you're arguing with fiction right? He can literally make up anything he wants to in order to make magic unscienceable, a better argument is what would be the minimum allowances of the magic system necessary for it to be scienceable

>>55187696
why make them similar? what's the point? you prefer it that way? that's one shitty fantasy setting you have there anon.

>>55187735
The minimum allowance for magic to be sciencable is for it to be reproducible by mundane methods.

>>55187640
>>55187646
You realize that all technology, chemistry, physics and the rest of our entire scientific understanding of the world we live in was once considered "magic" right? Magic doesn't mean a thing is impossible to detect or understand,, it means the person calling it magic is just calling it magic to cover their own ignorance on the subject, where the early scientists were those who admitted to not understanding and got to work figuring things out.

>>55187750
Controllable means is more accurate. If magic is a property of blood or fate, someone may still workout a system to abuse it.

>>55187777
Magic literally means something outside of the real world's normal rules. In settings where some people can just do things by thinking it, but most people cannot, the method they use is rarely, detectable and controllable outside of those people.

>>55187750
You need a bit more than that, at least if you want to determine the underlying principles behind it, if magic isn't a limited resource and a method to detect magic doesn't exist you are kind of stuck

>>55179130
>>55187226
>mfw you have no face
>mfw i have no face

>>55184635
Which is stupid. Science is literally nothing without it's method which is why Social Sciences are retarded special snowflakes. Without the scientific method, all knowledge provided by science would be no better than guesswork.

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>>55187826

>>55187777
you're going on a loop here, you're now bringing real life shit. Yes anon, we are aware that it was called 'alchemy' before 'chemistry'.

What kind of fantasy setting do you suggest anyway? a world where science and magic exist but magic is not magic? you might as well not call it a fantasy and just call it "how sherlock holmes proved to everyone that cultist #74567456 isn't a sorcerer, but a scammer!"

>>55187865
Would you consider the forgotten realms a fantasy setting? Its magic system is completely scienceable

>>55187805
That's the definition of the ignorant though. "Well it's beyond all understanding, just roll with it okay?" Although if they don't like magic it might also be "Question not the workings of the Devil, just burn the witch!"

And those settings are also full of mundane people who can't detect radiation, gravity, germs or other things that still have to exist anyway.

Shadowrun is an example of a magic system that can't be scienced.They have way of observing or controlling the underlying mechanics directly without actually being an Awakened individual. Awakened individuals can't science it either, because they all utilize different methods and seem to utilize different sources to get the same effects. They can directly observe and manipulate it, but cannot create machines to do so. There is no way to bestow an Awakened state other than smoking a specific kind of Awakened marijuana, which gives you the most basic ability to observe magic while also being high as fuck. Magic technology almost entirely utilizes biological components (Like magic-eating bacteria in a can, or Awakened vines that exist both in the real world and the astral plane to block intruders when planted along a wall) or is just straight up enchanted with orichalcum.
People use it, and use it consistently, and it's an accepted part of the world, but there's no science that can be done to its underlying mechanics.

>>55187743
>why make them similar? what's the point?
Because Fantasy and Sci-Fi are largely indistinguishable from one another once you strip away the arbitrary distinctions between one another.
>that's one shitty fantasy setting you have there anon.
And yet the laziest settings are always the ones where magic works just because, rather than through a means that can be explained within the context of the setting.

>>55187892
Even in the Realms, there's no way for an inherently non-magical person to utilize magic without becoming a wizard. You can't make a machine that does it. You can enchant a machine, but then you're just using magic to use magic, defeating the point.

>>55187892
>what is witchcraft, kult, in nomine

>>55187865
Yes, that does sound like a more satisfying system. And no, you don't have to be at the point where all magic has been explained away, but someone somewhere could well be working on some part of it. Might even be a wizard who just wants to know how things work and starts discovering the connection between magic and mundane forces.

>>55187966
A means being explained in the setting and a means that you can observe and control like it's radiation are two very, very different things. "The literal, actual gods that really actually exist did it" is an explanation within the setting.

>>55187921
>"Well it's beyond all understanding, just roll with it okay?
The problem with this whole debate is that in a fictional setting this might be 100% indisputable fact. Just because in our world all that was magic was easily explained by the scientific method does not mean it (or an equivalent method) would be able to do the same in a fictional world. You don't have to personally like such settings, but it doesn't mean they don't/can't exist.

>>55187966
so you're saying you can't come up with a setting where science and magic are balanced?

>>55187983
The connection between magic and mundane forces is usually a one way street. Magic can affect things, things can't always affect magic. Magic can make fire. Fire can't burn magic (As in the underlying mechanics of magic energy, not a magic book or whatever).

>>55187969
You can become a wizard though with enough knowledge and there are people that have studied the mechanics of magic and have basically a scientific understanding of how magic works

>>55188011
And those people can still only affect magic through its own systems. You can't make an auto-wizard, even if you have a working understanding of the underlying mechanics of how magic works. You still have to wiggle your fingers and say the words while holding a bit of esoteric material that is thematically appropriate to the effect you are making.

>>55187981
I'm pretty sure there's a lore explanation for how witchcraft works that a high enough level character could discover

>>55187988
>A means being explained in the setting and a means that you can observe and control like it's radiation are two very, very different things.
Not really. In order to explain how magic is supposed to work, it means that somebody, at some point within the setting's history, figured out how to observe and control different properties of magic to yield different results based on how you use it.

Otherwise, why aren't every magic user limited to only one form of magic, rather than the plethora of abilities that you would find in most settings.

>>55187969
Knowledge: Arcana
Spellcraft
Use Magic Device

Mundane people can in fact muck about with magic to a degree, allowing them to learn and develop knowledge on the subject. The caster classes just represent those who can make use of it by their own efforts, and even the wizard has a Big Book of Spells detailing their operation/casting.

Also in 3.0 there was a PrC in one of the setting books for gnomes or some humans from a particular area that led to building devices with magical effects that didn't use magic.

>>55188031
Sure but magic is still subject to the scientific method

>>55188068
magic-related question comes with a magic-related answer, but if you want to be autistic and suggest that a magic-related question can be answered by science, just read this thread.

>>55178964
hahahaha THE SALT. You're mad!

>>55188006
You cannot create a system of magic in which the players are expected to interact with and leave it unexplained to the point where the people within the setting have no idea as far as how things are supposed to work.

Also, magic is just science that we lack the technology to properly explain. There's no difference between a Level 3 Sending spell and using a telephone to set up a conference call with someone from India.

>>55188001
Fair enough, but arguing that all magic works that way is just as silly.

>>55188007
Fire can't burn gravity either. Most people from a hundred years ago would have thought that a laser or microwave setting things on fire was magic too.

>>55188088
Reading the thread, it just seems like the people who deny that magic can be answered using science are on the same level as flat-earth atheists who deny science that shows the world as a globe, rather than a disc.

>>55188118
Except a laser or a microwave are physical forces based in real physics on the physical plane of existence that we live on.
Magic is not a physical force based in the physical plane of existence that we live on.

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>mfw someone assumes evolution, chemical reactions, atoms, and gravity are real in a fantasy setting

>>55188088
You don't seem to understand what the scientific method is

>>55188127
More like people who think magic can be observed directly and reproduced blindly believe that a machine can be made to do that somehow, even when the people making said machine have no way of interacting directly with magic.

>>55188007
>Magic can affect things, things can't always affect magic.
False, we have material such as silver and iron that can affect magical creatures such as werewolves and ghosts respectively.

In fact, your average mage can still be killed by a bullet just as easily as a normal man.

>>55188068
Different anon, but even that might not be true. I don't think there are any settings like this, but imagine a magical force that automatically removes anyone's and everyone's memory of magic the moment their brain records the information. Magic is performed purely by instinct and no one can ever recall the magic itself afterwards, but can still observe its aftereffects. In such a setting, understanding magic by any means is impossible. It just is. Of course you can have a setting where magic is just a really abstract form of computer coding and have it perfectly understood by anyone who took the C++ elective in high school. As always, it depends on the setting.

>>55188118
Why? Magic doesn't exist. Why should I be forced you accept your preconceived notions about a fictional force/being/thing/person? If we're arguing about magic in DnD or something then we can totally have a good debate (I'd be on the 'magic is just unexplained science' team), but this current argument is just moving the goalposts the game. Which can be fun I guess.

>>55188141
A lot of people in this thread don't.
The scientific method doesn't magically (heh) allow you to completely observe and control forces that don't follow the normal rules.

>>55188147
Replace the word magic with "gravity" and realize how flawed your argument becomes.

We didn't have the technology to measure G-force a few centuries ago, but that doesn't mean that we don't have the technology now.

>>55188163
True but it's at least applicable in the forgotten realms

>>55178963

>mfw you need to be a spellcaster to make magic gear

>>55188163
>The scientific method doesn't magically (heh) allow you to completely observe and control forces that don't follow the normal rules.
It would still have to follow some set of rules to produce the same effect each time certain requirements are met though. At which point, the rules would merely change to account for these new sets of rules.

>>55188167
Do you always have trouble understanding hypothetical scenarios or is this subject a blind spot for you?

>>55188162
I'm talking specifically about DnD in which magic is a knowable and measurable force, in which case you can use the scientific method on it

>>55188167
Gravity is a physical force that exists on the same plane of existence as the machines used to measure it and follows the rules of physics.
Magic is not a physical force and does not exist on the same physical plane as the theoretical machines that would measure it, and does not follow the normal rules of physics.

>>55186832
Arcana: the science of magic. As opposed to Divine Magic pulled from a powerful diety or idealism held by a populated body of substantial size, or Phrenic Magic; the magic of using your own sheer will or psychic energy to will things into being.

>>55188131
And yet people would have called those things magic once upon a time. Crazy isn't it?

>>55188162
You may have quoted the wrong post for your second, I'm on Magic = Science if you read the post. I agreed that maybe in some settings magic can be totally separate but silly, and argued that really, lots of science/technology looks like magic to the uninformed.

>>55188153
Silver and iron don't interact with all magic, only those specific creatures.
So what? You found out that in certain specific situations, the unique magical effects of certain specific creatures are negated by certain specific materials. Woo hoo. Doesn't help you observe or control any other kind of magic.

And your average mage is physically identical to your average mundane. Because the magic part is not a physical force. You could dissect him and find absolutely nothing. You could MRI scan him as he casts and find the same brain patterns as any mundane person making the same gestures and words.

>>55188230
In settings where magic actually exists, what people call magic is really actually magic.

>>55188167
>magic is just olde science
>because magic doesn't exist in real life
>in a fucking fantasy setting

>>55188192
Oh, then I agree with you for the most part. There are some parts that potentially be pretty fucky like the Feywilds, but certainly the magic the wizards perform can be applied under the scientific method. That's kinda the whole point of playing a wizard really. Being a magical researcher and constantly expanding your research/spell list

>>55188230
I might have quoted the wrong anon. I've been trying to follow the various arguments from the start, but anonymous posting makes that a tough task. I just think many of the arguments on here are silly because they are trying to make generalized statements about something that doesn't exist.

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ITT: mortals claiming they know shit about things outside of the mortal realm

>>55187841
Lel, you = salty and mad.
Me = keking at u.

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>>55178043
>check this thread
>forgotten realms
>forgotten realms
>forgotten realms
>forgotten realms
>forgotten realms

>>55188189
I could ask you the same considering how vehemently you're denying the obvious.
>>55188196
Magic would have to exist on the same plane of existence as we are in order to have a physical effect on its surroundings. Also, physics can change depending on the environment and the stimuli affecting you, so it would just be a matter of figuring out how magic affects physics as we know it and alter the rules of physics to account for this phenomenon, similarly to how a ball full of air will react different in air than it does in water.

>>55188248
And yet wizards keep tomes of research notes on how the mechanics of magic work, almost as if there were a method to it...

>>55188268
No worries, we're all arguing a pretty silly subject in the end.

>>55188329
Magic is still subject to the scientific method in most other DnD settings

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>>55178993
it sure is

>>55188329
In most settings where only specific beings get to be magic, the "magic energy" either only exists through them and is otherwise on a different plane of existence, or only expresses through them and is otherwise invisible and immeasurable.

>>55188340
No, wizards keep tomes of research notes on how the mechanics of their personal interaction with magic works, not on how magic itself works. The underlying forces are not understood.

>>55188232
>Silver and iron don't interact with all magic, only those specific creatures.
It's still an example of a mundane substance interacting with magic in some way.
>Doesn't help you observe or control any other kind of magic.
On the contrary, it shows that certain materials within our world can be used to disrupt the conventions seen in some forms of magic, which means that we can open a whole world of possibilities in seeing how different periodic elements interacts with different forms of magic.
>Because the magic part is not a physical force.
On the contrary, magic can have a wide array of physical forces at the beck and call of the mage, from the manipulation of heat to cause an explosion or the manipulation of kinetic force to protect the mage.
>You could MRI scan him as he casts and find the same brain patterns as any mundane person making the same gestures and words.
You could also discover that certain areas of the mind that aren't typically used will light up as well.

>>55188252
In that setting, they might have found a way to harness a form of energy that we haven't yet, it's distinctly possible.

>>55188384
If we're talking about DnD wizards then at least for the high level ones the mechanics of magic are understood

>>55188384
And yet regardless of the setting, the conventions of magic will still be explained in some capacity simply because the protagonists would be interacting with it.

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>>55188417
>Although some characters can use spells, the workings of magic are dimly understood at best. There are many theories about where the power comes from. The most commonly accepted idea is that the mysterious combination of words, gestures, and materials that make up a spell somehow taps an extradimensional source of energy that in turn causes the desired effect. Somehow the components of the spells--those words, gestures and materials--route this energy to a specific and desired result. Fortunately, how this happens is not very important to the majority of wizards. It is enough to know that "when you do this, that happens."

Or that's what the 2e PHB says at least. I think the more recent books leave it mostly up to the setting.

>>55188393
>It's still an example of a mundane substance interacting with magic in some way.
One specific kind of magic. "This specific kind of magic can be interacted with by this specific kind of material" is not helpful for anything else.

>On the contrary, it shows that certain materials within our world can be used to disrupt the conventions seen in some forms of magic, which means that we can open a whole world of possibilities in seeing how different periodic elements interacts with different forms of magic.
What affects what is not based on their physical properties. Silver affecting werewolves does not mean that nickel, copper, zinc, palladium, cadmium, platinum, gold, or mercury do, or that any other arbitrary material interacts with any other arbitrary magic.

>On the contrary, magic can have a wide array of physical forces at the beck and call of the mage, from the manipulation of heat to cause an explosion or the manipulation of kinetic force to protect the mage.
Magic can create those forces, but they aren't side effects of the magic. Much like how potential energy is vague and hard to observe without making inferences and assumptions. A heavy object teetering on an edge has a lot of potential energy, but you can't directly measure it.
>You could also discover that certain areas of the mind that aren't typically used will light up as well.
You could, but that implies psionics, or that there's some kind of mental or emotional component to magic in addition to the physical movements, words, and the missing link that can't be reproduced by normies.

>>55188384
Then why can any wizard pick up any other wizard's spellbook, or even scrolls from wizards, bards, sorcerers and other arcane magic users and learn the spells? As long as it follows the areas of magic they're educated in at a level they can understand, all wizards can learn all other wizard magics and a decent number from other classes too.

>>55188437
The conventions of how to utilize it, sure. The underlying mechanics are not explained in most settings, or if they are, they're explained to the viewer and not the in-universe characters.

>>55188461
They can do that because they all tap the same source.
It does not mean that they understand the source or have any other way of interacting with it. Every wizard can throw a fireball if they say the words and have some bat guano. But change the words a little bit and hold some other kind of poop and nothing happens at all anymore. It's esoteric and does not follow scientific logic.

>>55188454
>One specific kind of magic.
Which can lead to other discoveries later on. It took many many trials to go from the Wright bros. to modern aviation.
>Silver affecting werewolves does not mean that nickel, copper, zinc, palladium, cadmium, platinum, gold, or mercury do, or that any other arbitrary material interacts with any other arbitrary magic.
Well we won't know until we try it and see. Who knows, maybe mercury grants abilities that werewolves aren't aware of because mercury isn't nearly as common as silver is.
>A heavy object teetering on an edge has a lot of potential energy, but you can't directly measure it.
And yet, we have.
>You could, but that implies psionics
Who says there's a difference?
>that there's some kind of mental or emotional component to magic in addition to the physical movements, words, and the missing link that can't be reproduced by normies.
And at that point, be the same as any other genetic ability like being born double-jointed.

>>55188473
>The underlying mechanics are not explained in most settings, or if they are, they're explained to the viewer and not the in-universe characters.
Can you list an example?

>>55188452
>how this happens is not very important to the majority of wizards. It is enough to know that "when you do this, that happens."
Wow those are some shitty wizards, and an explanation that honestly opens up a pile of "just teach the peasants the words and gestures and pass out some material components, we'll have a magic army by next week"

>>55188497
>can tap the source
>cannot interact with the source
Anon...

>>55188533
Have you played kult or in nomine?

>>55188533
>Which can lead to other discoveries later on
Such as what? Werewolf hide magic is unrelated to fireball throwing wizard hat magic is unrelated to shaman hitting the pipe and seeing the future magic as far as how you interact with them.
>Well we won't know until we try it and see. Who knows, maybe mercury grants abilities that werewolves aren't aware of because mercury isn't nearly as common as silver is.
And when none of them do anything, you'll still know nothing other than that the logical continuations don't work work.
>And yet, we have.
No, we haven't. Extrapolation and making educated guesses is not measuring. The situation could change. Maybe something will push the block back away from the edge, or maybe something will ram it off with greater force. Can't measure it until it actually transfers to a different kind of energy.
>Who says there's a difference?
Most settings.
>And at that point, be the same as any other genetic ability like being born double-jointed.
If you assume the missing link is genetic and not a literal gift from the gods or something.

>>55188578
Being able to tap the source by making specific gestures and saying specific words that someone else taught you doesn't mean you can just pull magic out of your ass and throw it in a machine. In settings like that, spells are very specific things. You can throw a fireball with those specific movements, but you can't observe where the fireball came from before you did that.

>>55178043
>real life science
There are two different way OP could have meant this.

#1: Trying to apply real-world physical laws and logic to magical phenomena
>I use mage hand to activate the ballista
>NUH HUH, it says here that mage hand can't attack
>But all it's doing is pulling a lever
>But it's doing that to activate a weapon, which means it's attacking, which means it's not allowed
>why not
>BECAUSE IT'S MAGIC
If OP meant it this way, OP is a faggot. Disallowing anything suspicious or outside of the box only confuses your players, by making the laws of the world inconsistent, and punishes intelligent play. "It's magic" isn't an excuse, it's a shitty handwave (like mage hand in this scenario)

#2: The scientific method of study cannot be applied to magic due to it being inconsistent or subjective
>So this summoning ritual demands the sacrifice of a rabbit, but would a hare work in it's place?
>No, wrong animal, you die
More justifiable, considering how intensive study would waste game time, and how most magic systems are pretty shittily thought out at a base level, but done badly can still be incredibly frustrating as it essentially becomes the first type, in order to stop them from being researchable basic laws of logic are broken.

So either way, OP is a gigantic faggot.

>>55188636
The point is that tapping into the source is interacting with said source. The wizard is having an effect on it, no matter how small.

>>55188612
>Such as what?
We don't know yet, which is why we set up trials and see what knowledge we gain from each experiment.
>And when none of them do anything, you'll still know nothing other than that the logical continuations don't work work.
Actually, it'll tell us that werewolves are only reactive to Silver, which means that our experiments would then focus on how reactive they are and whether the form that silver takes is important in some way.
>Extrapolation and making educated guesses is not measuring.
Are you telling me that you never learned basic physics in High School? You poor child, here's a website with the necessary formulas https://www.ajdesigner.com/phppotentialenergy/potential_energy_equation.php
>Most settings.
What's the difference between them aside from the names?
>If you assume the missing link is genetic and not a literal gift from the gods or something.
If it's transferable to their offspring, it would have to be genetic in some way.

>>55188691
I said interacting with the source in any other way.
You can make a fireball with those movements, but you can't make a fireball any other way, and you can't do anything other than a fireball with those specific movements. Changing the movements to experiment just results in nothing.

>>55188743
In your setting maybe. In mine it's how they refine it from 5d6 damage up to 10d6, add metamagic effects and learn to cast higher level variants.

>>55188720
>We don't know yet, which is why we set up trials and see what knowledge we gain from each experiment.
How vague. I guess learning that nothing works is indeed learning something.
>Actually, it'll tell us that werewolves are only reactive to Silver
Thus, not helping you with any other kind of magic effect.
>Are you telling me that you never learned basic physics in High School?
Basic physics requires having the whole situation understood. Like with the teetering object, there could be any number of other factors. Good luck with that when you can't observe most of them, or at least the most important ones. Also, fuck you for being a patronizing twat.
>What's the difference between them aside from the names?
Usually whether they're internal or not. Magic is often external through a different plane or from an undetectable source. Psionics are often strictly internal using mutated parts of the brain.
>If it's transferable to their offspring, it would have to be genetic in some way.
Again, only if there isn't literally a god somewhere doing it. There's no genetic marker for blessings.

>>55188743
>Changing the movements to experiment just results in nothing.
Then we experiment to see if there's a difference between human hands and mechanical hands that accurately model the movements. Then we experiment to see if prosthetic hands will affect the mage's ability to cast magic.

>>55188821
Most likely, prosthetic hands can be used, but only if they're actually attached to a mage.

>>55188807
>I guess learning that nothing works is indeed learning something.
Of course it is, why wouldn't it be?
>Thus, not helping you with any other kind of magic effect.
I disagree, because it helps to teach us how some forms of magic can be manipulated by different applications of the same material. Like if we discover that aerosol silver can affect werewolves just as effectively as if it were a solid piece, that means that we've developed werewolf mace.
>Also, fuck you for being a patronizing twat.
I'm sorry, I forgot with people like you I'm supposed to be considerate of your feelings. It is a common mistake but I didn't mean anything by it.
>Usually whether they're internal or not.
There are many forms of magic and ESP that can be projected or internalized, so what other differences are there?
>Again, only if there isn't literally a god somewhere doing it. There's no genetic marker for blessings.
There would be if it can be passed on to the mage's offspring though.

>>55188841
From there, we see if the materials used will enhance or weaken the flow of magic within the mage.

>>55188841
Being a mage only matters in certain settings. For example, according to >>55188452 using magic in 2e DnD is literally nothing but verbal, material and somatic components, you could train peasants to do it by rote if you wanted.

>>55188925
Unlikely, unless there are magic materials in the setting. Orichalcum and mithril aren't real metals and don't fall on the table of elements.

>>55188903
>Like if we discover that aerosol silver can affect werewolves just as effectively as if it were a solid piece, that means that we've developed werewolf mace.
That still tells you nothing about other kinds of magic.
>I'm sorry, I forgot with people like you I'm supposed to be considerate of your feelings.
Fuck you. I'm not stooping to your level.

>>55188976
>That still tells you nothing about other kinds of magic.
I disagree, because it tells us that it's the material that's important, not the form that the material takes. Then we work towards figuring out if this is the same for other mythological weaknesses, which could then be used to test for anti-magic materials found throughout mythology.
>Fuck you. I'm not stooping to your level.
There's no need to be rude, I genuinely meant no harm in what I said and I apologize if I upset you.

>>55186629
What the fuck do you think the point of magic is

One day I was thinking about realistic magic.

My idea was based on the question: "how magic would be if realistic?"

I came up with those "rules". Of course this is just some layout, this doesn't tell the very specific details of how magic would works, unless needed (so, the magic would be realistic without it).

Anyway MY wip rules:

1-They can use magic while we can't because their universe, multiverse or omniverse allow it.
1.1-Magic is like an second science that allow stuff normal science doens't allow.

2-NO gods

3-In the case there is a way to go to another universe/multiverse exist,
3.1 And if mages from this universe or multiverse we talk about here go to another universe or multiverse
3.1.1-That doesn't have magic, they will be useless.
3.1.2-With a "universe allow it" kind of magic system they will probably be useless too, unless the system is similar to them (imagine a universe created by time travel, that has just some changes).
3.1.3-If there is a crossover between this universe/multiverse and another multiverse that has average magicians (like if this was converted to gurps and used in with the multiverse system), mages from this system i am talking here will be useless as a average mages while they are in the other universe/multiverse.

4-Multiverse/universe teletransport magic to a different universe without the same magic system is only possible (to exist in setting/game) if its also possible with normal science.
4.1-This doesn't means that spells or whatever used to do it will be the same as the one used to travel to a universe that has the same magical system.
4.2-If a guy travel to another multiverse/universe that don't have the same magical system, he will need to go back with science or he will not be able to do it.

>>55190117
5-Magical items here are like mechanical magical casters they make the "second science" changes needed to make their magical stuff happen.
5.1-Those magical parts will not work in other universes/multiverses without the same system.

6-Magical Monsters, races, animals.. probably don't exist.
6.1-If they exist, they will be:
6.1.1-magical mutants
6.1.2-Group of guys mutated by magic that them, by reproduction and stuff became a normal specie. And also the evolution that came from those guys
(MAYBE)6.1.3-Scifi monsters formed by atom morphing magic (convert matter to other form of matter).
6.2-They lose their magic powers in the other universe without the same magical system (arrive there without it).
6.2.1-Scifi monsters can exist (realistic or not [if you are using a soft scifi setting]) in the other universe.

Some stuff I am not sure about my idea:
If it would be possible to have some magical inate person. Of course it would be possible to have to guys that have an easier time to learn the magical stuff in the same way some have an easier time as learning programming as some example.
How mana would work (IF the magical system would have mana).

>>55178889
"You are alredy channeling magic by youself and that magic would conflict with that of magical items, so they would't work"

Boom, it makes sense now.
took me like 4 seconds.

>>55178104

>mfw people who have only played 3e D&D and later believe that the flaws in their favourite games are endemic to the entire medium

>>55188647
I mean like throwing a fireball in outer space and nerds spergging out saying that's not possible.

>>55193661
There's no way you could cast in space anyways.

Either you can't gather the heat energy to detonate a fireball or your space suit would be too bulky to utilize your somatic components.

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What about using science to enhance your own magic? Can you imagine the sort of shit that would be caused if some mage found out what bacteria is? Eventually your going to have plague mages running around.

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>>55193661
>I mean like throwing a fireball in outer space and nerds spergging out saying that's not possible.
See to me, this depends entirely on the rules of the spell that state whether the fireball can ignite another fire or not.
I've seen it both ways.
It's either:
>Magical fire that burns because it's magical fire, not because it's actual fire, it doesn't ignite other fires, and can be thrown in outer space.
or
>Magically generated normal fire that burns because it's actual fire, it ignites other fires, and it cannot be thrown in outer space or other environments without oxygen to fuel the reaction.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

>>55196000
>Either you can't gather the heat energy to detonate a fireball
Never seen this as a requirement anywhere before.

>or your space suit would be too bulky to utilize your somatic components.
Whatever dog, your results may vary.
pic related

>>55196678
>Whatever dog, your results may vary.
If you can't cast arcane spells in full-plate, you're not going to be casting anything in a spacesuit.

Sorry.

>>55178104

I purposely try to make my non-magical characters more realistic in terms of abilities, but specialize in dealing with magical dealings.

I love the idea of normal people being able to take on arrogant mages with pure technology and cleverness.

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>>55196717
Spacesuits vary in bulk and somatic restriction my friend.

Sorry.

>>55196775
Again, if you can't cast arcane spells in full-plate, when gauntlets and armor offer full range of motion, then you're not going to cast a spell in a bulky ass suit no matter how much you try and spin it in your favor.

Sorry.

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>>55196843
Again, even if you're not going to cast a spell in a bulky ass suit, it doesn't matter if your spacesuit isn't bulky in the slightest and that remains true without so much as a modicum of trying to "spin it" in any way.

Sorry.

>>55196984
>That pic
>A spacesuit
I want waifufags to leave!
>>>/trash/

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>>55197025
>waifufags
Sexy space babe Pin-ups were a thing long before you were, my child.

Really, it's no wonder that the concept of varying possible bulk is giving you trouble.
Do you think all cars are the same size too?

>>55197109
>Going out into the vacuum of space
>In a two-piece swimsuit no less
At that point, why even wear the helmet? If the vacuum of space was going to kill you, it would've done so as soon as you stepped food outside of the space station.

Also, your waifu-faggotry doesn't become more acceptable just because you've been yanking your crank over that shit for decades gramps.

>>55183835
that only work if magic is consistently reproducible, tough. It's generally described as not.

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>>55187340
>b-but muh romanticism

>>55197157
>Autism: the post
Son, if you can't appreciate some proper 1950s Pulp Sci-fi, then I think you may be on the wrong board

>>55187594
>5

.....So Mage? You literally just described Mage except science is magic and the Technocracy have a stranglehold on reality by convincing people who can't just shoot fireballs out of your hands while riding a dragon you pooped out while puking lightning

>>55197157
>Going out into the vacuum of space
>In a two-piece swimsuit no less
>If the vacuum of space was going to kill you, it would've done so as soon as you stepped food outside of the space station.
The lovely young woman is clearly utilizing technology to keep safe and warm that is both unknown and unseen.
This fictional scientific content is known by some as "sci-fi".

>At that point, why even wear the helmet?
Because protecting and heating the body is a function entirely separate from circulating breathable air?
Don't you know this?
What am I saying?
Of course you don't know this. You can't even grasp the concept of things being different levels of bulkiness.

>Also, your waifu-faggotry doesn't become more acceptable
No, it proves that it is not "waifu-faggotry" at all.
"Waifu" is a term that is, by all accounts, 15 years old at the oldest.
Therefore, "waifu-faggotry" and it's related concept, must necessarily be younger than that.
Whereas "Pin-Ups" have been around, in various forms, for well over a century.
I'm not certain about "Sci-fi" "Pin-Ups" specifically, but they've been around for at least sixty years.

>Not using magic to apply real life science

Its like you dont even want a deadly railgun firing bolts enchanted with fireball runes, powered by a tiny lighting elemental

>>55197407
I Imagine the rails would be of some metal enchanted with frost to make them super conducting and fire resistance further offset the extreme heat of the plasma arching along the rails

File: pnap20110916.jpg (299KB, 910x1388px) Image search: [Google]

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>>55197285
>>55187594

File: 69831ad61664ca9dd1271f85d2edf0ff--space-girl-space-age.jpg (64KB, 500x741px) Image search: [Google]

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>>55197361
Forgot my Pin-Up.