>Too much magic can ruin a fantasy. Magic is a very powerful

>>55177729

B-b-b-but I want to fly around invisibly while transformed into a Giant Ape that doesn't exist in the setting! I want that setting to be an easy to grasp Ren-Fair version of old Europe while also having the power to warp reality at the fingertips of every magician! REEEEEEE

t. every DnDpleb ever (Dark Sun masterrace excepted)

Stop trying to force your fucking GRRM threads. This is the third one and it's fucking annoying.

>>55177729
>Really my models were the great fantasists like Tolkien
Will this finally shut the autists up?

>>55177827
>implying the OP of these threads cares about anything other than annoying /tg/ and getting (you)s

He has literally no stake in the fight beyond that.

>>55177807
But Anon, this time Martin actually has a point. Magic is shit in most settings.

>>55177902
He has a point about the tax policies too.

>buht muh storees 'bout wizurds XD
De-pleb yourself.

>>55177894
I like GRRM, so I'm fine with those threads. I can use them to discuss asoiaf with other people.
Speaking of which, why were Sand Snakes in GOT so universally hated? It's not like they're any better in the books. In fact, being unsympathetic, violent bitches is kind of the entire point of their characters. They are meant to be hated.

>>55177936
Hidden feminist agendas

>>55177894
But OP can't get (You)s, they get (OP) like everyone else.

>>55177729

>Puts OP dragons

>OP white wight things

>OP league of assassins that can impersonate anyone whenever

>OP green fire that blows up everything

Ok fat faggot

>>55177936
>want to get revenge for Oberyn
>do this by killing his and their family
That'll show those Lannisters.

>>55177936
They basically turned six characters into one character (all Sand Snakes where Obara in appearance and personality), and then made Ellaria Sand that exact same character too.
They removed pretty much all of the significance of Dorne from the novels by removing most of the characters there and their plot relevance, and in this last second they basically killed every single one of them as if to acknowledge how unimportant they made the entire arc.
Dorne is hardly the most key arc in the novels themselves mind you, but they managed to make it even LESS relevant in the TV show.

>>55178092
But that happened in season 6, and they and the Dorne plotline was hated back in season 5. In fact, it was hated so much, they cut the whole plot down to basically nothing and quickly killed off the dornish characters.
Doran Martell's actor said that there were a lot of scenes with him planned in the season 6, all of which were cut, and his character was killed.

>>55178075
Same shit, OP.

>>55178137
>“A start?” said Ellaria Sand, incredulous. “Gods forbid. I would it were a finish. Tywin Lannister is dead. So are Robert Baratheon, Amory Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, all those who had a hand in murdering Elia and her children. Even Joffrey, who was not yet born when Elia died. I saw the boy perish with mine own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath. Who else is there to kill? Do Myrcella and Tommen need to die so the shades of Rhaenys and Aegon can be at rest? Where does it end?”

>"Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?"

Based Ellaria Sand

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Not giving any (You)s, but I will concur that magic in fantasy has lately been, well, utter shit.

>"everything must be a science!"
It's gotten really fucking out of hand

Magic just isn't magic anymore.
Anime is partly to blame.

>>55177729
One thread wasn't enough eh? Just had to go for two.

>>55178369
The issue is that anything with repeatable and reproducible effects can be made subject to the scientific method, assuming sufficient resources. This means magic has to exist in the space between 'different science' and 'making it up as you go along'. Both of those have their issues after all, it's definitely a writing challenge to balance the two so normally it's just part of the assumed suspension of disbelief for a fantasy setting that "Magic exists and some people know how it works but the world, in general, is pretty much still medieval Europe" and so long as the audience can buy into that it's still verisimilitudinous so that's just what people do because it's easier.

>>55178369
Magic as science isn't the problem so much as ridiculously powerful magic in a setting that doesn't acount for it, mysterious magic is one way of curbing the power of magic but there are other options, plus I wouldn't mind powerful sciency magic if the setting was built around its implications

>>55177902

Also his settings.

Seriously, Time Travel in a gritty fantasy setting.

>>55177729
Actually sometimes Gandalf does try to solve the problem with a spell, like when he shoots lasers at the nazgûl during the battle of minas tirith. But he doesn't do it often

>>55178699
That's the show, dumb shit. It's one of the pivotal reasons why book readers fucking loathe D&D.

There is no time travel in the books, only looking into the goddamn past. Great, now you've triggered me like some sort of rotund feminist.

>>55178723

Shit, that describes me.

.

Maybe GRRM will die before he can port that into the books.

>>55178723
The show producers have lost all sense of realism, sadly.

People teleporting across distances the size of India in 2-3 days. It's fucking atrocious.

>>55178826
>A queen, under trial for being a murderer and a whore, blows up a church where 90% of her political enemies are
>One of them - a leader of a populist uprising against her, and also the pope
>Nobody cares about it
>One episode later, she is suddenly beloved by the people
?!?!?!?!

>>55178892
Yeah it's bad. Really really bad.

>>55177729

Depends on how you do it, I see three ways:

Either magic is so rare only a few people can use it, and it has distinct effects rather than being a versatile thing. Magic A produces Result A, not Magic A produces result A-Z

Magic is attainable by anyone and is versatile, but comes at such a price that no one but madmen would use it Magic A produces result X with consequence Z. Consequences can range from insanity to magical fallout.

Or, magic is so common and versatile that it's industrialized, everyone's using or used it and it's shaped society.

>>55177936
Because they literally have done nothing but be spiteful and obnoxious cunts who made everything in their kingdom worse.

>>55178369
Magic takes a lot of forms IRL. Get yourself stuck into the Golden Bough.

>>55177729
i kind of like going full magic
where magic is used like going to the pharmacy, and magical trains run on magic coal, and magic robots do battle with magical knights

i just love the magical made mundane, it doesnt need to be full on magocracy, but the general idea that amazing wonders of mankind fit in your pocket and is bought from the pharmacy appeals to me more than magic is rare and dangerous

>>55178369
Agree with you there about anime being partially the problem. The issue is that the Japanese ascribe all the mysticism of magic to ki a la DBZ. Whereas in the west magic is typically mysterious and ill-understood, in japan it's viewed seperately to their own brand of mysticism and merely regarded as another mundane tool. The most recent and glaring offender in my eyes is probably Knights and Magic where it's so close to a universal operating system that the MC's knowledge of coding from his previous life was directly applicable.

>>55180025
To be fair, even Western fiction approaches magic as some sort of fake pseudo-science. Arguably more so, if we go by history.

Post-renaissance occult movements really pursued it as such. Heavy ritual and rigorous study. Even Newton was enamored by it.

The magic of D&D is practically a fictional science, if not an art form.

Japan treats it more like a technology, which is what kills it. The West is, strangely, more talented at mistreating magic. Kind of funny, kind of sad.

>>55177729
I love how the Gordon's Fisherman has become to go to shitheel opinion for everything fantasy. Really contemplates my cashews.

>>55180025
>>55180257
>The most recent and glaring offender
>Japan treats it more like a technology, which is what kills it

*cough* *cough* Final Fantasy 15 *cough* *hack* *cough*

>>55177792
KAMAMAMA

>>55180257
>>55180025
what is wrong with mundane magic?
its not any worse than mysterious magic is it?

>>55180354
>not liking xv
It's a decent game

>>55180387
Nothing is wrong with mundane magic, just how it's executed.

>>55180392
Yeah, but it lost all the magic. It just didn't feel like proper fantasy to me.

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>>55180354
FF6
I mean really anon

>>55180469
Yeah, except there was really good balance in that one. The differences really made it interesting. FF15 just fucking went all "magic exists, meh".

>>55180392
No it fucking isn't.

>>55180469
FF6 did it well. FF15 did not.

There's also the fact that FF6 had its focus on magic.

>>55180510
Yes it fucking is

>>55180535
I SAID IT FUCKING ISN'T! XV WAS A FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT ON THE SAME LEVEL AS 13. FF HASN'T BEEN GOOD SINCE 9.

>>55177729
>Too much magic can ruin a fantasy.

Or make it baller as fuck.

Unsounded is legitimately better than anything GRRM has ever written, and it's partially because it takes the presence of systematic magic to its logical conclusions.

>I don’t like the idea of a magic system, which some fantasists use. If magic is systematic, then it’s not magic and more of a fake science. Magic is the supernatural and it’s beyond nature.

He probably thinks this is more 'genuine' and 'realistic', but IRL magic was always systematic to a degree. It wasn't beyond nature, it WAS nature. It was how these people believed the world worked. It was, in his words, a fake science.

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>>55177807
>This is the third one and it's fucking annoying
It's actually the fourth one in 2 days.

It's fucking retarded. The mods should do something about this spammer. And all posters should do what we used to do with shitty threads: SAGE

>>55180554
Hey now, 12 and 10 were pretty good.

If 13 had the combat system of 15 it would have been good too.

>>55180576

>Magic's not systematic

GRRM is one dense motherfucker, yeah sure let's prentend alchemy wasn't studied and practiced in 18th/19th century

>>55180506
>FF15 just fucking went all "magic exists, meh".
That's because literally only one very small group of people in the game can use magic at all, and the empire that is creating the game's demons managed to do so mostly by reverse engineering demons left over from a time when magic was more extant. Now the only magic users are the hexatheon and those that they grant magic to. XV is like a game set in the future of a fantasy setting and it handles that at an enjoyable level.
That doesn't stop /v/ from foaming at the mouth on sight, though.

>>55180694
Nope. It's shit. Stop defending diarrhea.

>>55180576
>>55180670
This was only a thing in the West(and to a lesser extent China) though.
The last millennium really took a turn with the Occult and those who took an interest in it.

Everything before and out of that range was whack job mumbo jumbo.
European magic was always a very rigid and defined system. More refined even.

There's a reason why people think of whites when 'wizards' are brought up.

>>55180809
Yes. High Magic had a very scientific structure. Some of it even leading to certain facets of natural philosophy, which was the precursor of modern science.

Lesser "hedge" magic was a silly thing and often seen a womanly practice.

>>55180809
>This was only a thing in the West(and to a lesser extent China) though.

Bullshit.

Structured magical ritual has existed in almost every society we have record of.

>>55180949
No, you're right. Just not to the extent of what the West went through. They -really- wanted answers. Everything else just seemed like hogwash. Which is ironic, considering all magic -is- hogwash.

>>55180595
idk, if it's spam why do these posts keep getting many replies with different conversations throughout?

>>55178146
Doran was killed to show off the female actors, whom D&D are fanboys of.

>>55180737
>detailed argument for why it works
>"lol no it shyt xD"
Top argument there, kiddo. You sure proved him wrong.

@55181101

Thanks for the (You), fgt

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Why the fuck are Martinposters even a thing

How did this happen?

>>55177729
Sounds like you're a hack who can't write how world would be different.

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George R. R. Martin is the Tolkien of the 21st century.

You're all just afraid to admit it, really.

>>55181136
Here, have another, with all my pity.

>>55180576
>IRL magic was always systematic to a degree
You are aware there is no magic IRL right?

Yeah, nah. I just want an excuse to throw fireballs.

Also fucking seriously, would he say that Greek myth suffers for Zeus being able to lightning motherfuckers that step to him?

>>55182917

>When a pseudo intellectual purposefully misinterprets context to incredulously feign superiority

He's obviously talking about medieval occult studies dude. Hence "was," and "how these people believed the world worked."

>>55178369
Anime is explicitly NOT to blame.

Idiots like >>55178542 are to blame.

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>>55182979
kek

weeb detected

>>55177729
>When magic works, it works a little uncertainly and it’s not something everyone can work. I don’t like the idea of a magic system, which some fantasists use. If magic is systematic, then it’s not magic and more of a fake science. Magic is the supernatural and it’s beyond nature. It’s dangerous, uncontrollable and unpredictable

Well this is something I've always agreed with. To me when magic has rules it stops being magic.

What happened to the days when "it's magic, I don't gotta explain shit" was a valid answer? When it was a term that meant making the miraculous into reality.

>>55183042
It still is a valid answer.

Some people are too pretentious to accept it.

>>55182956
Probably yes

>>55182993
How many times has magic been scientifically explained in anime? The spellcasting processes might be scientific, but the actual root cause and nature of magic are invariably "mysterious thing X", and 90% of the time when someone has more magic than is typcal (i.e. a protagonist) they're using a different and entirely unscientific method of magic compared to everyone else.

It has little to do with being a weeb and a lot more to do with how Westerners find imagination and lack of rules upsetting. god forbid magic be some mysterious unexplainable force that doesn't react predictably every single time, especially on a /tg/ board where rules must be autistically calculated to the nth degree.

>>55182871
You could have at least made this bait believable by using Moorecock instead of Tolkien but noooooo you got greedy.

>>55183088
Gee, I don't think anybody gives a rats ass over what you think, weeaboo.

>>55183111
Not an argument.

>>55180387
Well personally, magic should come with a sense of wonder and the fantastic. If it doesn't have that then all you've made is an alien planet with swords.

>>55183088
>using generalizations against generalizations

You're both retarded, you know that?

>>55183115
Who's trying to have an argument here?

:^)

>>55183108
Don't you know, books are more mature than kids comics anon.

GRRM's never heard of Glorantha, I see.

>>55182871
You can't really make claim until you see his influence in posterity.

>>55183108
Even claiming him a Moorcock would be stretching it, since Moorcock was a highly influential author.

GRRM may just turn out to be a flash in the pan, we wont know until all is said and done.

>>55183143
>pulp
>kids comics
Whatever you say anon

>>55182871
That's not much of a statement.

Tolkien wasn't a great writer, more so a fantastic world builder.

>>55183184
I'm speaking of the general opinion, ask your parents or any normalfag, they'll say comics is for children.

>>55181039
Because that's how /tg/ has always operated. Even the shittiest trolls can find their threads co-opted by a deep and enthusiastic conversation about something random how to properly represent sonar in a dice based system.

One time a shitty "what is this D&D thing you all keep talking about" troll led to the creation of a new /tg/ game based on loli necromancers.

>>55183088
Gonna need some better examples than 'muh protagonist'

>>55177729
>every setting must be mine
>every setting must be a replication of medieval Europe

Depends
On
The
Setting

>>55177729
cease and desist
I do whatever the fuck I want

Are we going to have one of these threads every day?

>>55183111
What a stupid, spiteful post

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>>55183319
>spiteful

>>55183332
At least you know it was stupid

>>55177729
Actually a very legitimate observation though. It's incredibly hard to weave magic into a setting without having it OP or fucked up or not make full sense.

You've either got to limit it somehow (only certain people can be born with magic, it can't be learned, it drains your energy/life, it's dangerous, it requires sacrifice) or you've got to build your entire world around the fact that anyone can do just about anything, and when something happens that would have an easy magical solution (eg. Time Turner's in harry potter) then you have to either come up with a convenient excuse as to why that wasn't done or answer annoyed readers/partakers of your world.

I generally prefer to take the path of only certain people have magic/magic is very hard to do well/magic is dangerous so that sure, it exists, it's accepted, and it plays a big role in the world, but not many people are actually that good at it and overdoing it will kill you.

>>55183392
You want to know what magic is?

It's a plot device.

That is the sole purpose of magic in any written setting. It only become anything other than a plot device when it is brought into games, especially tabletop games where you have to regulate it strictly or it becomes a tool to beat the game into submission with. Regardless of how it works, how it functions, it's source, or the abilities of those who use it, it is first and foremost a plot device. Any other use of it is ridiculous in a book.

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>>55183420

back to /lit/ with you

>>55183420
That's a pretty stupid opinion to have m'lady.

>>55183475
>>55183449
Except he's not wrong, you know.

>>55183420
So when my Black Mage casts LIT3 to defeat some goblins, that's a plot device. Does that mean my Fighter's sword is also a plot device? Is the movement function that allows me to walk to my next objective a plot device?

Is it possible that applying this level of reductionism to a concept is pointless and produces no valuable insights?

>>55183484
>muh plot

Just throw dice

The best magic system with all it's secretcy and power was probably build in the Black Company if we talk about books. We know barely so much about it, but there is no magic everywhere.

The people are implied to be born on their own power level without almost any possiblity to raise it, only learn how to control it (D20 Black Company also suggest sacrifice)

The wizards are still dangerous, but as possible to harm as any mortal, with exception of REALLY powerful fuckers who spend centuries on setting up magical defences on the, which can still be fucked up by using their True Name in spell or weapon which will fuck up all their defences as they were not even existing.

Or use it in Naming Ritual, which basically cuts them off their power, forever, unless they find something willing to syphon it into them.

>>55183495
Games =/= novels

Ever wonder why video games will never be made into well made feature length films? Lack of sense.

>>55183526
That book series was such a disappointment for me. It's basically pitched as grimy low fantasy mixed with Vietnam horror stories, but you learn fuckall about the characters, the setting is extremely bare, and half the battles aren't given much detail because the main character either isn't there or the writer is just stupid.

>>55177729
I see no problem with any of this.

Deformed societies and fake sciences are fucking awesome.

>>55183560
I thought it was due to the fact that video games, unlike books, use more than just a linear story to be good, and the hacks at hollywood cant just copy and paste that over and so completely ruin everything.

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>>55177729
>its a "post a quote from GRRM with no context and get 300 replies" thread

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>>55181330
It's because he's popular for making a fantasy setting, has a lot to how how other people make fantasy settings and fantasy settings are half of what /tg/ is about so they have a lot to say in regards to what George says.

>>55183630
Are you seriously suggesting that the audience should be able to control what they watch?

lel

>>55183648
No I'm say that games are a fundamentally different medium than movies while books are honestly rather similar.

Well that and also hollywood writers are a bunch of talentless fucks.

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t: low-fantasy writer

>>55183647
I don't even know what you just wrote

>>55183601

>NO DETAILS WEEEEEEE NO ALL SECRETS EXPLAINED WWEEEEEE

It is supposed to be like this, Anon. Guy is writing the fucking chronicle mixed with status report for future chroniclers, not the fucking LOTR.

Mugren describes much more and Lady possibly the most.

>>55183670
>It's because he's popular for making a fantasy setting, has a lot to critique about how other people write fantasy settings and fantasy settings are half of what /tg/ is about so /tg/ has a lot to say in regards to what George says.

>>55183176
>GRRM may just turn out to be a flash in the pan, we wont know until all is said and done.
If you've been reading any 'dark' fantasy from the last ten years, guys like Abercrombie, Lynch, Rothfuss, et all, you'd realize how insanely influential GRRM has been. He pretty much killed the PG epic fantasies that were popular in the 90s/early 2000s and started a wave of gritty fantasy that's become the dominant kind of epic fantasy.

>>55177729
GRRM is on point about this. Too bad his writing is the complete opposite of what he supposedly was going for.

>>55183763
I think you mean the show. His books represent his ideas quite well.

>>55183691
Thanks.

>>55183763
How so? Elaborate now, you insufferable mong.

>>55178723
>There is no time travel in the book
Eh, even if we ignore the constant teleportation going on across the continent because Martin lacks all sense for scale, we still have an official statement from him that the whole "hold the door, Hodor" was planned by him from the beginning. So time travel is not (intentionally) part of the books yet.

>>55183793
To be fair, classical time travel isn't what he was going for.
It's self-fulfilled time shenanigans. You can't change the past. Hodor was always meant to be, well, Hodor.

As for his lack of sense of scale, he's actually been rather on point. He intentionally keeps distances vague as maps were a tricky thing in those times.
Essos is essentially a thinner stretched out Asia/Eurasia. He has made it clear that the distance from King's Landing to Winterfell takes about a month.

His sense of geography is fine. Battle scenarios? Not so much. He likes to go all out on that.

>>55183782
>>55183792
Because, even in the books, magic only shows up to solve problems within the plot while there's no sense of magic or wonder in the actual writing.

>>55183828
That's perfectly fine. I don't want a sense of 'wonder' in a depressing setting. I'm more creeped out by the magic than bewildered, as are the inhabitants of his world.

>>55183816
>He intentionally keeps distances vague
Which doesn't matter when characters still zigzag across the world out of control. Case in point: Tytos.

>>55183849
That's never been an issue in the books. Only the show.

>>55183859
Tyrion and Jorah crossed Valyria in days, which should have taken months.

Season 5 was terrible.

>>55183841
There's no sense of creepy magic either. It only shows up (bluntly at that) when it's convenient for the plot for it to be there, or in completely nonsensical contexts, such as prophecies (which serve no purpose for the narrative but works wonders for getting fat neckbeards to cum all over the pages) or mentions of strange artifacts or plants (which were all obviously just made up by Gurm on the spot).

>>55183859
>That's never been an issue in the books.
It was a complaint about the books since before the show was even made.

>>55183875
You are confusing objective statements with your own opinions, you filthy hipster.

>>55177729
Fuck you, you fat fuck. Your world IS high magic. it has dragons, vagina spawned shadow spooks, summer lasts years, bitches are coming back from the dead easier than D&D - DOES A RED PRIEST GOTTA GIVE UP A FUCKING DIAMOND? NOPE JUST BELIEVE REAL HARD

>>55183420
>You want to know what money is?

>It's a plot device

>That is the sole purpose of money in any written setting. It only become anything other than a plot device when it is brought into games, especially tabletop games where you have to regulate it strictly or it becomes a tool to beat the game into submission with. Regardless of how it works, how it functions, it's source, or the abilities of those who use it, it is first and foremost a plot device. Any other use of it is ridiculous in a book.

>>55183882
Well funny me then, or you, as I've never noticed over the course of reading the series nearly four times.

The distances are fine from my perspective.

>>55183905
Except that's provably false.

>>55183898
It's low magic high fantasy. Just like LotR(until you start reading into its past)

>>55183909
>I've never noticed
You're not very observant.

Here's a thread from a couple of years ago on the ASoIaF forum talking specifically about the teleportation going on in the books, and it's far from the earliest one.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/129920-teleportation-in-asoiaf/

>>55183926
That's not a good example. The Sorrows is a supernatural thing.

>>55183926
Fuck. I hate the ASoIaF forums. Full of fucking moronic theorists, bordering on actual retardation.

Some idiot there sincerely believes Westeros is a post-apocalyptic North America, and that magic is just advanced tech.

>"I don't believe in magic"
>Proceeds to magically deus ex machina every major even since book 2

>>55183939
I honestly just picked the first hit I got on Google without reading the thread. There are likely hundreds of threads on there discussing how armies and characters teleport across the world with no rhyme or reason.

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Westeros is supposed to be roughly the size of South America according to Martin.

>>55183913
Go on, find me a written setting where money exists and it is not a plot device. I'll wait

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>>55184021

>>55178084
>>Puts OP dragons
All you have to do to shut down dragons is sit a Whent in Harrenhal again.
>>OP white wight things
Same as above, except you have to REMOVE Whents from Winterfell and sit a non-Whent Stark.
>>OP league of assassins that can impersonate anyone whenever
They're rigidly bound to a code of conduct. And they have to literally delete their brains to use their magic.
>>OP green fire that blows up everything
Really not any different than conventional explosives. An anachronism, but not implausible.

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>>55184038
>Literally a plot about economics

>>55178146
>>55181070
This, and also

The less actors they have to pay, the better. Why would they need Doran Martell to be the Dornish plotmaker when Oberyns lover and the snakes can serve the same purpose?

>>55179112
As bad as Jolly Euron and his titanic fleet of fireball throwing warships surrounding the armoured juggernaut of a fortress he calls a flagship? or it's ability to teleport across the world in complete and perfect silence to ambush anyone at any time?

>>55177729
Oh, so that's who's behind all of those posts.

>>55177729
God he looks like a pedophile.

>>55178369
The only story that I have read to pull this off really really well is Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (which is a fanfic rewrite of Harry Potter that ended up being vastly better than the original books - which I liked as well - based on the "What If"s of "What if everyone in the story who is supposed to be smart acutally WAS smart?" and "What if Harry grew up in a loving family?")

But then again this disconnect between what people perceive as "magic" and it really only being a weird science if it is reproducible is one of the three key themes of HPMoR (the others being Political Intrigue and The Enlightenment), if it weren't pulled off brilliantly the whole story wouldn't have worked.

Basically, what I am saying is, if you want to read a story that is conscious of that disconnect and explores that idea well read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. Don't be put off by the weird time travel stuff and Dumbledore shenanigans in the beginning, it almost made me stop reading but there are several amazing revelations about those evenly placed throughout the story that make you rethink it all.

I mean, its amazing, it is a book that pulls off Political Intrigue, Systematic Magic AND Time travel, and only one of those alone usually ruin most stories.

Beware that the quality of writing dips after Diagon Alley, but picks up again after the first time travel stuff.

I never know what to post in these threads. Agree with people whose posts I more or less agree with? Argue with people whose posts I don't like? Tell my own opinions and be lost in a see of zero (You)s?

I just don't get it. How do these threads get so many responses?

>>55184245
>HPMoR
>good
Yudkowsky please go.

>>55177729
Grrm is a retard

>>55177729
he's right

>>55184264

He can't. If he does the future AI will torture a simulation of him and thus be torturing him to make the version of him back in time do what it wants.

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>>55184249
>I just don't get it. How do these threads get so many responses?

I think people are subconsciously drawn to his face.

>>55184277
Yea, I'm drawn to it. Drawn to punch it.

>>55184267
who has done more for the genre than you ever will

>>55184293
Yeah he wrote some super shitty books that made the genre worse. He has done more damage than I ever could do. This isn't even mentioning the trash TV show.

>>55177729
>Magic is the supernatural and it’s beyond nature. It’s dangerous, uncontrollable and unpredictable
>Gandalf never tries to solve the problem by whipping up a potion or a spell
George is once again missing the point of Tolkien's work. Gandalf didn't whip out spells because doing so would have been dangerous, he wasn't doing it because he wasn't allowed to interfere in the mortal world in just any way.

That, and it's debatable whether magic really exists in Middle-Earth, as it's just a name used by Hobbits for things they don't understand, and the way it can be handed out to mortals by angelic beings certainly implies that what's called magic in the story is really just a greater understanding of how the world works and how to manipulate it.

That said, LotR certainly does have a constant feel of magic over it, as well as a constant sense of realism. ASoIaF has neither.

>>55184328
>Gandalf didn't whip out spells because doing so would have been dangerous, he wasn't doing it because he wasn't allowed to interfere in the mortal world in just any way.
That's still hitting home on Martin's point. Giving a reason to limit magic in a story.

>it's debatable whether magic really exists in Middle-Earth
It does. The elves don't refer to it as such, but everyone else does, even the Istari.

>>55183189
this. Tolkiens writing sucks, and even his worldbuilding can be better described as "thourough" than as "good". He put SO
MUCH
EFFORT
into every little detail, and yet the kingdoms of men feel very empty.

I am not saying it is amazingly aweful. But it was't super amazing either. It was more carried by the novelty of developing such a detailed world with myth and lore. The writing was merely ok enaugh to not be a detriment, and that is not really much at all, considering what utter crap you can get away with if you sell it right. Just look at what the average monkey citizen buys.

>>55184354
>everyone else does
Yeah, in a book originally written by Hobbits. Who would have thunk?

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>>55184328
>>he thinks lotr is more realistic than asoiaf

>>55183659
>Implying game writers are any less dogshit

>>55184370
Who is worse, the man who pinches out a turd or the man who tries to copy it and somehow falls face first in it?

>>55182917
>he doesnt practice the occult

baka anon

>>55178699
fast forwarding through a couple weeks of travel is not time travel

>>55184328
>>55184359
>>55177729
is it really difficult to create a simple magic system?

>incantations
>high risk, low reward
>most spells depend on whether it's deity likes you/the caster or not

>>55184245
>The only story that I have read to pull this off really really well is Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

>I mean, its amazing,

Fuck off, it's shit. It's literally Fedora: the novel, written with the pretentious intent of demolishing a setting for the sole crime of not adhering to Yudkowsky's autistically rationalist worldview.

>>55184304
>contrarian opinion that will fall by the wayside like JRRT's critics have become irrelevant
keep bitching for all the good it will do to you. at least you'll get some (you)s out of it.

>>55184249
>I don't know how to have a discussion
Anon just state your opinion and comment on other people's opinions and maybe you both will learn something new.

>>55184379
Semantics. Hollywood and game writers are equal amount of shit, operating in different mediums.

>>55183659
games have more in common with low-budget tv shows - they are generally mass-produced shovelware. if you have a really great plot idea that wou want to make money off, don't put it into a RPG scenario, write a book instead, developing it fully there.

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>Shit Tier
Forgotten Realms style magic everywhere but yet everything is still medieval fantasy land. Wizards and magic are WAY more powerful then anything else, but yet everyone isn't a Wizard for basically no reason.

>I'm Edgy Tier
lol when u cast a spell ther is a chance ur dik explodes lol (aka; Shitty "at a cost" magic)

>Meh Tier
Magic is nonexistent or is a form of alternate history science (steampunk, hard science fiction, tesla coils, etc.)

>Good Tier
Sword and Sorcery style magic, highly ritualistic and sometimes dangerous. Players do not get access to magic at the start.

>Great Tier
The setting has a mythical/classical fantasy vibe to it. Magic is mostly the domain of the Gods and spirits, but they can be bribed or manipulated to give magic to player characters.

>Excellent Tier
Everyone uses magic in some capacity; Fighters learn spells to increase the power of their weapons with weaboo fighting magic, there may be machines or buildings that use mana to magically industrialize some parts of the setting, etc.

>Incredible Tier
Magic is 100% based on occultism. Very few, if any magic effects are obvious and spontaneous and the vast majority of magic does things like change luck, twist fate, send demons to haunt peoples dreams, sicken livestock, etc.

>God Tier
The setting is heavily like a 'fairy tale' and follows unconventional logic. Animals can talk just as a normal thing half the time, you'll often find people stuck in a monster's belly unharmed for years, the world doesn't work like ours. Magic is whimsical, and almost all magic comes in the form of magic items, innate talents, or through the use of potions and glamors. The closest thing to a 'Wizard' class would be more similar to a Sage with all kinds of knowledge. Magic is clearly defined by good and evil, with true love's first kiss being the strongest magic of all.

----------
This is the official /tg/ setting-magic tier list. Please educate yourself for future threads.

>>55184359
Like, the Middle Earth being super depopulated is actually the point. You're supposed to get the sense of emptyness and an abandoned world.

>>55184443
>Magic is 100% based on occultism. Very few, if any magic effects are obvious and spontaneous and the vast majority of magic does things like change luck, twist fate, send demons to haunt peoples dreams, sicken livestock, etc.

i like this, magic based on real life grimoires and haunted items treated as magical artifacts.

>>55184417
Not him but that's like saying Narnia is shit because of the Christian imagery. If you can't seperate a work from it's author and seperate the story from your personal belives, that is not anyone elses problem. I'm not an atheist, but that doesn't mean that the book is automatically shit. That the author doesn't understand or fully grasp all the intentions, themes and strength of the original, but that doesn't mean the work in and of itself isn't good. You could construct similar arguments the other way around. Or do you want to dissagree that Voldie was pretty fucking stupid, if you really think about it? I appreciated HPMoR for doing something that a lot of authors fail to do: Think the implications of their own setting through to the end.

>>55184264
I don't even know who the author is lol

>>55184443
>incredible tier is just the same tier as edgy tier but with more words
dumb grandmother poster

>>55184443
40K's psychic powers are fun though

>>55184471
You're criticizing me for exactly what MoR is. It is specifically an ideological attack on Harry Potter Because Yudkowsky could not stomach a story which operated on irrational principles.

I don't even like Harry Potter or the way it works, but it is what it is. Methods or Rationality is a pretentious attempt to shoehorn it into something diametrically opposed to its underlying principles.

To be clear, I think MoR is shit independent of that context, but it's even more shit because it's entirely made of "NO MAGIC FUN REEEEEE"

>>55184425
I am fairly certain GRRM will go the way of Moorcock and countless other similar genre authors before: Largely forgotten with some minor influences still lingering in the genre long after the only people who remember them or even care about their work are far autists on Polynesian banana photo forums.

>>55184443
I'd like (more) examples of each tier, If possible.

>>55183991
>likely

>>55184640
Dunno, Order vs Chaos has become a fairly established trope in fantasy. It's hard to see what influence Martin will have. I mean eventually all the sex and gore will get scrubbed out, and then what will be left?

>>55178218
"ugh revenge is BAD and POINTLESS"
deep...

>>55177729
>You can't put in a lot of magic and then still have a medieval setting or the same social structure.

Then... don't have a medieval setting or social structure? I don't see the problem here unless you blindly rip shit you don't understand and transplant it onto a setting because 'that's what fantasy is'.

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>>55177729
GRRM has about as much influence on my games as JRRT, which is to say none at all. Howard, Moorcock, Vance, Burroughs, and 1980's fantasy films as inspiration FTW!

>>55184684
edgy

>>55183042
The genre grew up. Magic that just "works" and does whatever it wants isn't narratively satisfying to anyone but the most popcorn fiction-y of readers.

>>55184640
>authors the books to one of the most successful tv shows in history
>literally shaped the image of fantasy for generations of normies
>will be largely forgotten
okay. sounds more like wishful thinking desu.

>>55184730
it still works in literature/cinema imho. it doesnt work well in games that have spellcaster PCs

>>55184732
ye because of how successful the show has been for a wide audience it will definitely stay relevant for quite some time

>>55184742
Only to a certain extent, and that extent is such that it doesn't make the plot or the characters look foolish. Magic that "just works" is trite and lazy in any medium. People need to stop hiding behind claims of "mystery" and "wonder" when they mean "poorly-conceived nonsense."

That isn't to say it needs to be a science or rigidly codified. It just needs to have consistent function in the story and not break the setting or the plot just by existing.

>>55184720
It's not edgy, it's blatantly reductionist.
Jesus H. Christ, you can't even take my bait correctly.

>>55178369
It's funny that

>everything must be science!
coexists so closely with
>magic is fucking everywhere but hasn't solved anything for some reason

Really, I'm fine with magic being mind-blowingly powerful in theory, but in practice, in it's interaction with the characters and the story, it shouldn't be. It should be the underlying fabric of the universe, and there shouldn't be a fucking wizard's tower in every city.

I'm even OK with D&D-faggotry, I just wish it'd dial it all back, setting-wise. That shit's got dragons and literal fucking demons crawling out of it's ears by now and it's basically implied that nobody on the street bats an eye. It's fucking terrible.

It's like they took the worst aspects of Forgotten Realms (which I actually really fucking like as a setting in 3.5e) and then somehow made it all so, so, so much worse.

>>55183793
>the constant teleportation going on across the continent because Martin lacks all sense for scale
Wat? In the books, that's, like, not an issue at all. There's cuts, but I think that's pretty much made clear when they're there. In the show, though, there's absolutely no hint whatsoever when, for example, they travelled from Winterfell to King's Landing. It seemed to be within walking distance.

In the books, I never experienced any jarring "teleportation" or a lack of a sense of scale. Whenever someone was out travelling long distances, he usually cuts to another character, and the exact time frames are intentionally kept vague.

Even one of the books (I forget which) makes it explicit in the foreword that when he originally wrote these chapters, it was intended as a single book combined with the prior book, so the events take place prior to the ending of the prior book, but were separated into two books based on geography and relevance, not continuity.

So if you missed that, then yeah, I can see how that part of the books is a mess. But other than that, I don't understand this critique at all.

>>55184640
Yeah, no. As much as I dislike the show, it's pretty much guaranteed that Martin is as known as Tolkien, at least product-wise. "Game of Thrones" have come to define fantasy as much or (in our contemporary time) even more than Lord of the Rings.

In time it might even have a greater long-term effect, because reading is hard, apparently.

>>55184681
>and then what will be left?
no one is safe
>ned stark's death, the red wedding, the red viper's death, hodor
these things will endure

>>55185083
No one is safe.

Except Jon. And Dany. And Tyrion. And...

>>55184681
>Order vs Chaos
What, you expect him to actually know the origin of the tropes he makes use of? Don't be ridiculous.

I do find it funny that Moorcock has had such an influence on fantasy - fantasy literature, fantasy gaming, fantasy roleplaying, the works - but very few (that I know of) has actually read his books or consider him very good or even a "major influence".

He's one of those that has had a deep and profound influence, but that tons of fantasy "fans" have never even heard of, yet things like Warhammer and D&D would look completely different without him.

Another example is Jack Vance. Like, holy shit, Vance affected so much that entire mechanics in modern games worked in accordance to his writings (Vancian Magic) and it was just assumed that it made sense because OBVIOUSLY you've read Vance.

Yet for decades now people just have no fucking clue how Vancian magic is supposed to work, and how it doesn't "make sense", and the writers themselves don't even seem to fucking know, because they rarely (if ever) explain it.

>>55184681
High Fantasy Grit. GRRM has a very specific type of setting, without really veering into "dark fantasy", and it will slowly be bastardized and then cannibalized for influences.

Dragon Age: Origins, for example, had a lot of influences from A Song of Ice and Fire, but most were too subtle to be singled out and identified by most genre fans at the time. GRRM:s influences will be a lot less obvious than Moorcock, but they will be there. I think especially his brand of subtle-but-ever-present magic, provided it stays that way in the books, will be a lot more common in the future. The fact that there are other writers already using similar tropes in both darker and more lighthearted contexts (such as Robin Hobbs), just makes it even more likely.

A lot of fans of literary fantasy actually do not appreciate the sling-fireballs-fucking-everywhere-all-day of modern-day D&D, and I think we've gotten to a point where it will start to wind down, because when everything is fucking fantastical and special, nothing is.

It's cool to be a Tiefling when it's subtle and you're a rare breed that has to hide your parantage. It's a lot less cool - in actual practice - when you're a literal fucking half-demon and it's a base choice for pretty much anyone.

>>55185140
Its not all good. Moorcock's whole multiverse thing is what we have to blame for Marvel and DC still existing.

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I used to think like this, then I came to realize that science is just magic that worked.

Throughout history there has been tons of magic, magic rituals and spells and so on. But you will find not one bit of it that actually works save for the magic derived from Logos, or logic.

Science was originally Greek magic. The gods did the spells, but the magic of men was rationalism. But it is not what we want. It does not offer easy effects, it requires study, hard work and dedication and a specific type of thinking.

What we want is to stab a chicken and shoot fireballs at our enemies. To will things into being through desire alone. Greek magic doesn't require that though, it requires logical thought and acting in accordance with nature.

Greek magic passed to Rome, then died before being revived by the English. In perhaps one of the only successful magical spells ever cast, the Britons committed mass human self-sacrifice during the time of Boudicca to steal Rome's face and become Rome more than Rome ever was. But stolen faces rot - and so too did England.

Now America took the magic and gave it to all - and now we have but to have the right person will it, and invisible hands will perform all the actions to end the world. Spells of mass destruction will rain upon us all.

Soon the psychic age will be upon us, where every spell we imagine can be made real by our scientific tools but all that matters is the ideas that people think and spread to one another. With instant quantum communications and computers built into everything, everything moves by our will alone. Knowledge will be downloaded into our half-robotic minds. All that will matter is our own form of mana - electricity stored in batteries all around us we can tap into at will. Effortless, driven by will, and it doesn't even require dead chickens.

So the truth is this - we never lost magic, and never will. Science is the magic that worked, and soon science will be our magic again.

>>55183682
Why care about characters, events, locales, etc. that you know next to nothing about?

>>55185218
No, no, I didn't mean to imply that Moorcock was GOOD or that all his influences were, I was really just musing. There's also a process of bastardization by people that cannibalize things in order to use them for whatever the fuck they want.

Point in case, the multiverse thing. It's often just an excuse for "Lol, it was a multiverse, so it doesn't matter" and "Lol, it's multiverse, this happened somewhere I dunno". Another example is the alignment system of D&D.

It was originally just Law vs. Chaos, with both sides being really fucking awful when taken to their extremes. Then "Good" and "Evil" was added, and nothing really makes any sense, even though the extremes of either side on any axis would actually be fucking awful to live under, because the assumption is that Good can't be bad.

The more I get into the history of D&D and the deeper I go, the more I actually like alignments, because in the context in which it was created, it made sense, much like Vancian magic, but after those elements were lost (because people actually HADN'T read Moorcock, or Vance), it made less and less sense because writers and players have no idea how this is actually meant to work.

And I shouldn't even run my mouth too much, because there was a time when I, too, felt "Alignments make no fucking sense, who determines what is evil?" or "Vancian magic makes no fucking sense, what, I just fucking forget my spells after actually writing them down?".

>>55185246
can you do astral projection with science?

>>55185246
what the fuck

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>>55185325
Pic related most definitely can.

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>>55185304

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>>55184684
>classic moral about giving up hate and vengeance and instead seeking peace
>not deep

I thought /tg/ was a better board than this

>>55185357
>classic moral
>giving up hate and vengeance and instead seeking peace

Not big on classical morality, huh?

>>55185354
laughed, nice

>>55182871
No he's not, he's a fat retard whose fanbase has a shit ton of normalfags that get entertained by softcore porn, and "realistic" politics and warfare.

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>>55185460
Everyone with real taste watched it for Stannis and Bigfingerguy. Now they're both gone theres just really no point to anything.

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>>55185325
Depends on the type, but seeing science as magic mostly requires a shift in how you think. You can't stop seeing it as logical though, or you stop advancing it. Stop thinking of the spells and think of the effects and it becomes magic again.

"Send a projection of yourself across great distances without moving". That happens when you use holograms to have a concert at one location and a performer at another.

"Send my voice to someone in another location". This is magic we have long known, it's called a telephone call. You can also send your image by invoking the "teleconference" spell.

"Let's scry on people." There's no difference between viewing someone through publicly available cameras you access with a voice command and casting a scrying spell. Also Alexa and Siri are like magic question-answering spirits.

"Let's track someone with a spell." Check someone's cell phone location data. Bonus points if you invoke ancient laws and get a warrant.

"Let's shoot a lightning bolt!" Create a path of ionized air to direct the lightning and make one of many available lightning guns.

"Let's have a spell scribe my words for me!" Voice to text.

"Let's create worlds!" Video games.

"Let's fly!" Airplanes.

"Knock spell", A credit card. Alternatively electronic door hacking.

"Let's create a golem!" Atlas Robots.

"Let's fuck with life!" Crispr.

"Let's communicate our thoughts over a distance." The internet.

"Mana," AKA Power, AKA stored electricity.

Don't focus on the derp and imperfections, focus on the results. The derp will continue to be ironed out, the imperfections fixed. Soon everyone will have terrifying power and with all languages instantly translated the people will spread ideas freely. All that will matter in the psychic age is what you think - nations will rise and fall depending on what people believe. How nations perceive reality will change, and conflicts will arise from those differing views. We'll be there soon.

>>55182966
Not even just that stuff.

Magical ritual systems are far, far older than the medieval period, and still exist today. Sacraments are magical rituals. Prayers are magical rituals. We've been trained by a few hundred years of Christian and Islamic sophistry on the matter to think of these things as distinct, but they're really not; that distinction is arbitrary and was simply a way for Christianity to distinguish itself from other belief systems and better discredit them. Say the right words, perform the right actions, and you invoke a power to intercede on your behalf.

These things are all just simpler and less costly forms of more ancient magical systems. The only difference between these systems and, say, more material sacrifice rituals (properly positioning, killing, and burning an animal for instance) is their ease for the average person.

It's all magic bro.

>>55185490
you're just suggesting practical "alternatives"

kek

>>55185377
Huh? I don't know what you're implying. Giving up on vengeance is the point of the Iliad. The first word in Book 1 is "Rage" and then the book ends when Priam begs Achilles for Hector's body, and Achilles let's go of that rage.

>>55185510
Not really. Remember the times that magic came from. Back in ye olden days you knew what you personally experienced. You saw only what was in your line of sight. Magic was everything you dreamed of - flight, bringing back the dead, eating safe meals that wouldn't make you sick, and so on.

Then people invented the first magic, language, and could exchange ideas. With language came civilization.

Then people invented the second magic, writing, and those ideas could be preserved and you could hear the thoughts of your long-dead ancestors.

And the third magic, math, made it possible for people to break down the way the natural world worked in an understandable way, assigning to it laws and rules that are fixed and unchanging, so that we could use those laws to enact our will. All of it works according to laws we have not set and do not dictate. We invoke higher powers than our own body and will every time we flip a light switch.

Very nearly anything a wizard can do a scientist can also do - they're just working with different systems. Science is boring and requires lots of tools and study, so it doesn't feel like magic. Flight is a miracle until you have to go through airport security. The internet is amazing until you have to deal with captcha. And worst of all, we understand how it works.

Magic doesn't stop being magic because it's annoying, and it doesn't stop being magic because you know how it works. It's the effect that makes it magical. Through knowledge and tools you work your will upon the world and the world responds without fail. Look at the effects and stop thinking about how it works and science becomes incredibly magical.

The future will just make things easier, faster, and better. With brain-machine interfaces, what then will be the difference between invoking programs and invoking spells? Both simply work like flipping a switch with your will.

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>>55185607
>muh practial science masturbation
it's alright anon, it's alright.

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>>55185695
>He doesn't understand technomages

MAGIC SUCKS

>>55184522
>Writing someone's name five times on a chicken egg five times to curse them with impotence for three generations is the same as magic that has a percentage chance of causing you to kill yourself.
Shit dude, you got like 5 INT.

>>55185765
that's not the point, read the thread again dumbass

>>55184640
seems unlikely. for the masses, Harry Potter is probably the only superior to GoT at this point re: informing the popular consciousness of fantasy. I don't like it either, but fight me if you think I'm wrong

>>55184443
>Fairy tale Disney shit
>God tier

Get the fuck out of my board you little shit.

>>55185997
>my board
Hiro, why don't you spend less time shitposting and hire better mods?

/tg/ is awful nowadays.

>>55185377
What kind of retarded faggot are you?

Classical morality was filled with tales of people forgiving their abusers instead of seeking vengeance. It's how Christianity became the most powerful religion in Rome. It's literally one of the foundation myths in Abrahamic tradition.

>>55185997
obvious bait is obvious

So don't make it conventional medieval

Magic you have in your setting should serve the message novel/setting wants to deliver or entertain with. Nothing more nothing less.
If you need giant magic powered mecha go for it.
The way it fill fit into rest of setting details is a matter of author`s ability to understand what he is adding and how does it works for bigger picture.

>>55184529
40k psychich powers don't cleanly fit into any one of those categories but has most in common with Sword and Sorcery style magic but with elements of great tier and excellent tier.

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>>55185870
>impotence for three generations
Wait something isn't right here.

>>55177729
Link to whole interview plz.

>>55177729
>Gandalf never tries to solve the problem by whipping up a potion or a spell.
Didn't Gandalf lightningbolt the fuck out of some goblins in the Hobbit?

He also set pinecones on fire (in Technicolor, even) to hold of the wargs.

>>55186188
Im edgy tier if you cast a spell choas can make your dick explode

>>55186655
lorewise it's not random or out of your control though, perils is supposed to represent the psyker overreaching and unwittingly calling upon or drawing the attention of the darker things in the warp, so ritualistic and dangerous is a more apt description.

>>55186188
WH40K is "I'm edgy" tier since psykers can summon deamons through one misscast and civilization is dependent of a skeleton sitting on a golden throne who requires 1000 sacrifices a day just to keep it operational.

>>55186729
Yeah it's edgy but it doesn't actually match the description of "I'm Edgy Tier" if you actually read the lore instead of the memes.

>>55186752
The point of "I'm edgy" tier is that it's magic that has a shitty cost each time you use it, it doesn't matter what the in-universe reasoning for it is because the ability to justify something doesn't make it any less shitty.

>>55179511
Yeah but then it's almost indistinguishable from sci-fi in terms of results. You're just trading magic for advanced technology.

>>55186193
You do know the demon on the pic is supposed to be a dude, right?
I mean, not that there's anything (inherently) wrong with that, but y'know, warrior of the church and all that jazz.

>>55177729
Depends on what you're going for. GRRM was going for a semi-realistic setting designed to be like medieval Europe with some real magic, so his point stands. As does his point about Tolkien.

But as long as an author takes into account the effect a bunch of magic would have on a setting, then everything is fine. Authors like Brandon Sanderson and Jim Butcher (specifically in Codex Alera) design their entire setting around the play between human culture and super-prevalent magic, and they're fucking great. Some of the settings they design are almost like alien cultures due to the influence.

Even settings like the average D&D world don't really try to be all that realistic and take into account the impact magic would have on the society. Adventurers in general are something that pretty much could not happen in the real world, but fit what the game/setting design was going for.

Fuck, even Harry Potter did this well by simply hiding magic from the regular world (kinda like the Dresden Files).

There's no such thing as a universal too much, too little, or just right amount of magic. It all depends on the author's intent, and how well they integrate the magic into the world and setting.

>>55187108
And...? Paladins don't even need to follow a god unless it's Forgotten Realms shit.

>>55187148
True, but it's still a little... I don't how to put it into words, but it seems a bit odd that settings mostly based on Medieval Europe are based off of modern western morality, I mean, I know that most D&D gods don't have any opinion on homosex, and it's a game targeted at modern western consumers where a lot of things are historically inaccurate, but it's still a little jarring.

Keep in mind I have nothing against IRL homos, just find it kind of weird how the topic is treated in tabletop fantasy.
And yeah, I acknowledge that a paladin fucking a demon is probably even less reasonable, but it's still kind of strange.

>>55178084
>Puts OP dragons
Which no-one really understands. They can't hatch them or even control them particularly well. There are only three of them in the world. A single dragon is a huge plot point.

>OP white wight things
Again, distant unknown magic that plays a big role into he story by its very existence.

>OP league of assassins that can impersonate anyone whenever
Woah, they can changes faces.

>OP green fire that blows up everything
Woah it burns stuff.

>>55183560
Prince of Persia was decent movie

>>55177729
Magic IS systematic you idiot, what the fuck do you think alchemy is, if not a magic system?

>>55177936
> discusses the show
Opinion discarded. The show is shit. Finish your books fatman.

>>55180025
>>55180257
Japan had diviners employed by the state, and you needed a license to operate as one. Also said diviners performed magic by turning a set of instructions into an artificial spirit and placing it into an object or animal; if they didn't get the instructions perfectly right (e.g. by misspelling something, or including two contradictory orders) then the spirits could malfunction and behave unpredictably.

>>55184245
Uh yeah except harry is completly insufferable in that story and its totally masturbatory. (In a different way than writing is in general)

>>55187680
>The show is shit.
>hurr durr popular things are bad!
opinion discarded

>>55178218
As opposed to the writing of the Sand Snakes in the show.
>YOU NEED DE BAD PUSI
>NO MOAR WEAK MEN
Thank god for Euron.

>>55185127
Tyrion has always had faulty plot armor. He survives, but he loses his nose. He survives, but the whore he grew to love sells him out. He survives, but his relationship with his brother is shattered, loses his position and wealth, and has to escape in a barrel. He only gets spared the full brunt of the damage Martin can do to his characters, death, while continuing to have the world and his own faults inflict suffering on him.

If it comes to tropes that might catch on, this might be one of the more constructive ones. Many characters in many stories have the plot armor of being likely to last till the end, but that shouldn't mean they are shielded from other serious harm.

>>55177729
Fucking TIME TRAVEL
You point is so completely invalid it's retroactively rendered it impossible for you to have even attempted to make a point in the first place.

>>55177729
>"Systemagic was a mistake."
>t. goddess of magic in my setting.

>>55182917
>He isn't a practicing Chaos Magician
It's almost as if you don't want to enter a gnosis state using cocaine and hookers.

>>55177729
Alright, so I'm convinced this time the OP is the "Pratchett is overrated" faggot from that other thread, because when it comes to unpredictable yet omnipresent magic once again that's an author that knocks Martin out of the fucking game and I feel I'm just being baited into saying this, but GRRM is a fucking hack.

>>55184015
So I know about Sothoryos, and Westeros and Essos are both in the books, but the fuck is Ulthos?

>>55187297
If they say that paladins can't be gay they'll get boycotted by Tumblr and probably sued.

>>55187003

I prefer the aesthetic of magical energy and intricate runecarvings to electricity and wire.

>>55184443

Excelent Tier is my favourite, followed by God tier.

>>55178826
But that's true to the books. He has no sense of how large things are, even he admitted the wall makes no fucking sense at the size he chose.

>>55189572
It may or may not be another continent, according to Martin's own words. Either a large island or a small continent the size of Australia.

His world is a quarter larger than earth.

How the fuck do these threads get so many replies

>>55184443
>Excellent Tier
>Everyone using magic in some capacity
>Fighters learn spells to increase the power of their weapons with weaboo fighting magic

Fuck off.

>>55190353

I honestly think that's the best way to do it, unless you specifically make it so magic is inborn and not learnt.

If you can simply learn magic then there'll be a societal pressure for everyone to learn it, and armies will have to start teaching their soldiers to cast in order to stand a chance against mages.

>>55182871

I feel like does the opposite of Tolkien.

Tolkien was a good worldbuilder but a shit writer.

GRRM is a great writer but a shit worldbuilder.

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>>55190411
kek

the butthurt martial makes its appearance

>>55190476

Let's be honest, if you're in a world where you can LEARN to cast magic, you would, and society would look down upon you if you didn't

It's like fantasy version of not learning basic maths and not getting a decent job.

>>55190501
Except it could be a world where not -everyone- can learn said magic.
Making magic into a universal language of functional technology rips the wonder out of it.

Considerations are needed. Magic gets boring when it's no longer a special occurrence.

>>55190501
>everyone can do magic

yeah, boring trash

>>55190518

That's why the original post said "Unless you specifically make it so magic is inborn and not learnt"

>>55190551
Magic doesn't have to be inborn either, it could be a frame of mind that is needed. Wizards compared to sorcerers. Or making bargains a la warlocks.

Having a single route is often a bit stale.

>>55190548

I don't think it's boring if you do it right.

Treat it as a science, look deeper into human nature and their desire to learn more, make it have consequences, as people learn more people wish to use it for war, people race to make more powerful spells eventually making the magical equivalent of a nuke.

In DnD terms it'd be like a mix between Dark Sun and Eberron.

>>55190566

I don't by this "Frame of mind"

Harry Potter's way of addressing magic can be considered "Learning" magic, but you still have to be born with the "Magical Gene".

>>55190603
That's inborn. Wizards in D&D aren't inborn, but tend to require a certain mind.

Harry Potter seems to be 1/5 sorcerer and 4/5 wizard. The spark is all that is needed, the rest is dedication. You don't see purebloods being better than muggleborns.

>>55190518

I don't think making it into a functional system rips the wonder out of it, I love fiction that looks at it as a system, like Fullmetal Alchemist, Warcraft, real life occultism and alchemy, hermeticism.

It's all down to taste but I prefer my magic to have strict rules as opposed to just being fairytale mysticism.

>>55190635

That's why I don't understand DnD's way of doing it, if it just takes intense study, why isn't everyone a wizard, and people who don't take the time to study are shunned and seen as disappointment like people who don't study in asian countries are?

>>55190353
This is literally Glorantha. Everyone can learn stuff like Bladesharp - if you're in battle, it'll make your sword hit harder, if you're harvesting grain, it'll make you mow like a motherfucker. Everyone can learn to heal minor injuries or light stuff on fire or confuse enemies in battle.

For the bigger spells, like flying or earthquakes or shooting fire out of your spear you have to be a member of a god's cult, and the priests don't teach that stuff willy-nilly.

>>55190653
Well, if wizardry prospers based on intelligence and understanding, I gather only the most knowledgeable and intelligent can pursue it.

That and the frame of mind thing. Not everyone can grasp it.

Just look at Eberron, everyone can *use* magic, but not everyone can become a full fledged wizard.

>>55190684

True, but the point still stands that it's still going to shape society and military power in some way, just like scientists and mathematicians have in real life.

I honestly love stories that dive into the implications of magic in this sense, and hate it when it's just used as "wave my hands and the universe bends to my will".

>>55190719
I like to pretend that the inhabitants of these fictional worlds think differently than us, and aren't anywhere near as innovative as us.

How else does one explain technological stagnation in the Forgotten Realms?

I know it's silly, but sometimes I just can't help it. Maybe they literally cannot conceive of certain concepts.

>>55190501
Depends on how useful magic is and how long it takes to master it. In my setting/system anyone can learn magic, but in the same time you could learn basic telekinesis you could get swole and be able to lift way more than other people. You could learn healing magic and mend wounds on the battlefield, or you could become a charismatic leader who inspires their allies and lets them fight through the pain. Casters and martials are equally strong but have different specializations. For example, mages tend to be better at area-of-effect elemental damage and crowd control, while martials excel at single-target damage and self-buffs. Casters can do impressive things like fly and transmute matter and summon creatures, but martials can make flying leaps and smash through walls and train beasts to fight by their side.

Basically, it's less like not learning math and more like working a blue collar or a white collar job with the same pay. Some people just prefer to work with their hands, some like sitting behind a desk. They'd hate to do the other person's job, and without both of them society wouldn't function.

>>55190411
>>55190501

Two shitty assumptions.

1. Everyone can learn magic.
This is not granted neither it is good to make it so.

2. Magic is SO GOOD it's automatically better than any other skill and invalidates it.
This is way worse than the above. When a warrior investing time in learning utilizing magic to help him swing a sword is more effective than actually investing in learning how to swing a sword on his own, it's shit.
Going with the modern education analogue, if learning magic would be not like learning basic maths but learning master degree grade engineering... sure, there is niche in economy for those guys. But there is also niche for private military contractors. Who actually earn more than average engineer. It's typical thinking ow bathrobe faggot fanboy who thinks that if magic is present in the setting it automatically has to be good at everything, and not on a select narrow range of uses that don't invalidate other skilsets. Protip - it hasn't, neither it is good for it to be that way.

>>55177936
bad acting, cringy dialogue, plot makes no sense. Sand Snakes literally had no redeeming features in the show

>>55177936
Bad acting, bad story and poor characters. Not that hard.

>>55190653
It doesn't gel, yes. It's supposed to be the interaction of "Everyone is too busy frantically stabbing orcs and growing food" and "Shit's expensive, yo", but low end magic stops a good chunk of both of those problems and the economy makes no goddamn sense on top of that.
I'd look to more of like >>55190674
and have "high" and "Low" magic, but it would work best in point buy or the like. Anyone can pick up low magic tricks, high magic is based on class training and etc. and does bigger, more impressive shit.
Low magic
>Cleans out wounds, gives a bonus to fight off any bad shit that came with them, prevents further bleeding or infection
High magic
>Seals wounds, cures infections and other bad shit, gives you a handjob, and a divine hand reaches down and slaps the dude that caused the wound on the back of the head right as he's drinking

>>55190447
>grrm
>great writer
???

Ars Magica handles magic better than any other system/fantasy setting.

Debate me

>>55190842

I feel like he can write his characters decently well, but the world it takes place in drags it down.

>>55190851
So does its bastard offspring Mage: The Ascension and Mage: The Awakening

I like magic to be something you can't just draw upon at will, you've got to spend time drawing intricate magic circles, carving runes and imbuing magic into objects.

>>55190826
In old school Runequest (and therefore Glorantha) what you could cast was tied to your intelligence and power. Power meant how many "spell points" (PP) you could use, intelligence meant what spells you could have on tap.

Say you have 10 INT and 12 POW. You could have, say, Bladesharp 3, Healing 4 and Protection 3 - letting you do 3 more damage and hit more accurately, heal 4 hit points and get 3 more damager reduction - ready to cast.

However, you could only cast, for example, that Healing 3 three times, because your POW points get drained by 4 for each cast. Or you could do four Bladesharp 3s, etc. It would take hours to recover your POW, so you can't spam even the low magic everyone can learn.

>>55184443
>God Tier
Glorantha?

>>55191056
Few things are more awesome than getting to re-enact your god's awesomeness through a really hardcore LARP.

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>>55177729
>Too much magic can ruin a fantasy
But what if like... my fantasy is magic punk ?

Jokes aside, i think the major problem in OP's text is that it is setting the term "fantasy" equal to "medival fantasy" or even Tolkien fantasy. After all fantasy is a fucking broad term and i like my fantasy mostly with spaceships, giant monsters and just enough "plot-force" to fill the gaps for story telling.

But of course nobody cares since people want to be angry and anger is and legitimate emotion that should be allowed.
So rage on you beautifull cathartic bastards.

>>55184443
>>55184443
>This is the official /tg/ setting-magic tier list.

As a four year lurker, I agree with you so much that I dare saying that somebody should make this a stick post

>>55191091

A lot of people shit on magic punk because traditionalism.

Personally I just love the aesthetic, it's a way of including both fantasy and sci-fi settings without making your tech all cold and metalic or having to explain shit.

>>55178699
___HODOR!

>>55190868
The actual writing is pulpy af, senpai. His characters are apart of his worldbuilding

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>>55177729

It's legitimately fucking hilarious how mad this guy makes people even though everything he says is just common sense.

>>55191111
well the magic punk was just en example to make a point.

I do not like magicpunk at all anon, but i do love me some nice pulpy sci-fi (giant monsters and spaceships)

>>55180694
>That's because literally only one very small group of people in the game can use magic at all
And yet nobody seems to care or think anything of it.

Think back to FF6, another world where magic was (in the beginning) restricted to the hands of a small elite and thought to be almost nonexistant. When Terra uses magic, Edgar freaks the fuck out.

FF6 had characters, and a world they inhabited. FFXV has tropes and setpieces.

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Fantasy is anything you want because.... fantasy. You make the setting, you make the rules for if there is magic and dragons and shit and you can do whatever the hell you want.

I'm not going to let some old fatass tell me I can't be a wizard or not because I can play or write whatever I want.

>t. someone who usually plays monk

>>55191035
I mean there's a fundamental difference, and you have separate 'types' of magic.
Low magic is just learning tricks and how the world works and the like. The world does include magic, this is just 'natural' in the way that fire-breathing lizards, ghosts, places of eternal darkness, and the like are 'natural'.
High magic is that spark of something else that's not 'natural', which is generally applied to anything 'magic'. A demon gave you the power to shoot fire out of your hands for shits and giggles. A god looked down and said "You're pretty bro, have the ability to heal wounds. Don't do shit I don't like or I'm taking it back." You studied so hard you learned to break reality in specific ways. You did the whole 100 pushups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats, 10km run EVERY DAY thing and now you can pick up horses and beat people to death with them.
The fighter learns just as many low magic tricks to keep their sword (or horse) sharp, find their way through the dark, or win at dice as the wizard learns to keep their books dry, their demon familiar happy, or clean their towers without actually doing any work. In fact, the wizard probably learned the sword-keeping low magic at some point because he got a bunch of magic swords from an adventure, and the warrior learned the bookkeeping one because he's writing a journal.

We need to stop the fat man from ruining /tg/

Justice for Lord Petyr Baelish, Protector of the Vale.

Killed by those damn meddling kids

>>55191056
Glorantha's kinda fundamentally different from many other fantasy settings since it isn't trying to do medieval fantasy, it's trying to do bronze age god-myths and hero cults. Knights and wizards and feudal kings do exist, but the essence of it is that if you don't respect and do proper service to the gods the world will be torn apart and chaos will seep in. It's hard to just dismiss magic in a setting like that

How the fuck do you assholes keep falling for this

I'm not even sure if the Martinfaggot is making these threads out of spite or just to annoy people.

>>55191544
>if you don't respect and do proper service to the gods the world will be torn apart

Fucking God Learners.

>>55191297

I like magicpunk mostly due to the aesthetic, but also because you can have shit like airships and dragons and extraplanar beings and liches all exist with a setting.

>>55177729
I actually enjoy when magic is built into the worldbuilding better than when someone just makes a proxy for a medieval world. I want to see how people adapt to living in worlds that don't exist, not indulge myself in fantasies of being a medieval badass.

>>55191659
They got what they deserved, didn't they ?

Also is there a beginner friendly version of runequest? I do like the combat effect mechanic tho.

>>55191649
(you)s are one hell of a drug

>>55191759
Get your hands on Runequest Classic, if you want the old school BRP style game, then get the Guides to Glorantha for the world stuff.

>>55184903
>In the books, that's, like, not an issue at all.
It's not an issue because you didn't pay attention when you read the books. If you've read the books. Characters seemingly do teleport between locations as there's no other explanation for how they're able to meet up with up the POV characters.

Tycho Nestoris has long been infamous for this, and a running joke within the fandom is that he's so rich he's able to bribe the very laws of physics themselves.

>>55179471
If you like the Golden Bough, Elizabeth Hand's fantasy might be up your alley.

>>55191759
And yes, the God Learners got what they had coming. Seriously, some of the shit they did was just bastardly, like the Goddess Switch.

>>55184443
Did you like Deathless?

>>55177792
Fuck you.
Dragonlance a champ.

>>55177792

Dark Sun, Eberron and Planescape are the only settings worth playing.

>>55191831
>>55191759
i meant "beginner" as in "beginner to RPGs" not for me, I'm the forever GM but i want to run it.
The newer versions are hella crunchy.
classic traveller/ mongoose Traveller 1e is the crunch level i'm the most comfortable with.

>>55192035
If you can handle Classic Traveller, you can handle RQ/BRP without trouble. It's all percentages - roll under your percentage to succeed.

>>55177729
I'm going to love when this fat old fuck dies, hopefully before finishing his shit reddit-tier series.

>>55192243
wow

Some people on here are sick and twisted

I'll take a look, thank you anon

>>55191242
It's a wonderful example of over-hype. The show was hyped to the point that people started getting sick of everything related to it. People started assuming that George had to be an idiot, how else could he create something popular?

>>55190868
>the sight of their arousal was arousing

GRRM writes prose like a drooling retard

>>55193230
Its a reference yah dip.

Fun things are fun

>>55184443
Perfect. Someone save this for pasta.

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>>55184443

>>55182917
magi has always been the way for people to try to understand and anipulate the world around them.
It was a search for knowledge and control. Which is why many philosophers and early scientists studied magic.
Then natural philosophy developed a method to acquire and establish objective knowledge, systematized as natural science and magic fell by the wayside.
Magic is mysterious and unscrutable was then only the justification for why magic doesn't work, and it's a modern western phenomenon. (modern as in the modern age)

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