>NPC Sets the party back during the hunt for the BBEG >*Benny

To the common adventuring murderhobo, things are very black and white. You're either with them or against them, you're either good or evil. No one is worth mercy if they work with the bad boy.

>>55130476
We understand, we just don't give a shit about your cliche method of giving people "depth"

>>55130541
This. I would literally do a 360 and walk away from the game if some overbearing moralizing GM wants to pigeonhole me into a shitty overdone moral dilemma.

I'm a pretty lucky dm, because my group seems to enjoy me presenting them a lot of conflict and moral dillemas.
2 of them are Vampires with high humanity, and I'm constantly throwing it in their face, and last mission they lost humanity for feeding a hobo to a captured vampire they needed information from.
It's fun when its fun for the players.

this kind of moral quandary is stupid and cliche.
If they want to kill him just let them. Make some consequences or something for it if you care so much. Don't expect them to want to help him.

on the other hand it's perfectly okay if your intention is to have them actually fight and stop the PCs from talking them out of it.

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>>55130541
>>55130593
>Tropes are inherently bad

Im glad by PCs actually try to use violence as a last resort(combat is very lethal in my setting)

My PCs probably would have come up with some plan to turn him to their side and use him to give the BBEG false intel.

>>55130476
Players only have agency within the story threw their characters and need too define their own actions. Its not the GM's place to define those actions, only to remind the players that those actions have consequences.

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>>55131577
Shitty overused tropes that give the illusion of depth without actual depth are bad, yes. Especially if the players aren't looking for a tryhard "dramatic" anime plot in their games.

>>55130593
>11111100001
>do a 360 and walk away
>Shiggity diggity

>>55130476
>want to play DUNGEONS and dragons
>DM has us chasing townsfolk instead
>attack this shit townsfolk for wasting our time
>DM mad I attacked something for once
if you don't give me shit to fight of course imma take a swing at the first thing with HP I find

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>>55131577
>Tropes are inherently good
>Implying it's not a spectrum where both good and bad exists
>Implying execution of said tropes isn't also a major factor

>>55130476
>Expecting me to show mercy.
Should have promised me a magic item to spare you instead.

>>55132198
>Tropes are inherently good
Nobody said or even implied that.
>Implying it's not a spectrum where both good and bad exists
That's what you just did not the person you're responding to.

>>55132247
You'll never see it coming.

>>55131577
>greentext contains a strawman
If he wants to set up the moral dilemma, that's fine, but don't expect me to take the "good" choice just you want me to for your shitty railroaded plot. If the NPC was supposed to be important and the GM is angry that I'm forcing him to modify his story, he should have done a better job selling the character. According to GM's logic, the defendants at Nuremberg were executed by "murderhobos".

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>DM can't think of a NPC's name

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dsXjOZQY9IgznaI5Gf-y0BmWSwaUCiqpnbTeCPOj7sM/edit?usp=sharing

>>55132887
I like how you're doubling down so hard to justify your actions. Almost like a child who knows they've done something wrong and are trying to convince their parents of the contrary.

>>55133015
Not an argument.

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>>55133015

>>55130476
>He reveals he was forced to do it by the BBEG promising to kill his family, torture his heir, and pollute/curse the oasis that kept his town alive
>NPC :"I had no Choice! You must understand!"
I for one do not understand.

He's a follower of the BBEG, and is actively trying to stop them from stopping the BBEG.

Surely this NPC fellow understands that the heroes have no choice in removing the obstacle that prevents them from taking down the BBEG?

There is no choice for the heroes, so why must the heroes understand that the NPC had no choice?

>>55133105
It's just something the NPC would say. It's not intended to be the DM declaring a fact about the word.

>>55130476
"Adventurers" are characters who have left everything behind to go off and do good things.

Of course they're going to think a guy who did bad things to protect his lifestyle is bad.

>>55133114
So why the fuck is the GM complaining about the PCs eliminating the obstacle in the way?

If they don't, the BBEG will just use the guy again, because he is being controlled.

It doesn't matter how he's controlled, just that the NPC is a liability and be actively detrimental.

Best case scenario the guy will beg for him to save their town and waste more time while the BBEG goes and kills more.

Why does the GM get mad when the PC knocks off a reluctant accessory to evil?

>>55133076
>>55133077
Now you're just trying too hard. Maybe next time you could tone it back a bit, might be more convincing.

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>>55133167
Those posts were less than a minute apart, meaning they couldn't be the same person. Maybe you're just a retard and multiple people are telling you you're a retard?

It's an anonymous imageboard, stop trying to save face. In fact, just stop posting entirely.

>>55133200
Why not take your own advice?

>>55133167
I can't tell if you're baiting or just THAT butthurt over being mentally challeneged and/or underaged on a forum where we don't even have usernames. Either way, stop.

>>55133200
Technically, I could have been both of those people if I had a 4chan pass (but I don't). In any case, that guy is just trolling or a legitimate thatguy, so who cares.

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>>55130476
>NPC is a sniper and has the PCs pinned down, with the team medic bleeding out in the street from a shot right through the neck
>he contacts the PCs via radio to explain why he's doing what he's doing
>he needed money so that his family won't be malnourished and in this economy it's really hard to find a job, so he took up a post in the tyrannical military junta
>NPC :"I had no Choice! You must understand!"
>PCs want to call an airstrike on the empty building he's in
>mfw
>What is it with people not understanding the Idea that you can quite literally be forced to do something without being enslaved by magic or some shit? And why is that adventurers mainly seem to believe this?

>>55130476
you're complaining that a paladin thinks it would have been better to lose everything than aid evil.
you should probably think about that.

>>55130476

But...Aren't the PCs right? He chose to poison or harm hundreds of people for selfish reasons. Even if I was the party's Paladin, I would kill him.

The man made a choice, and he chose wrong. There's no reason to spare him.

>>55133166
Because it's pretty brutal for heroes to kill defenseless civilians.

>>55133434
Clearly wasn't defenseless if he was fighting the PCs.

Plus, knights and samurai and other "heroic" castes killed peasant civilians all the time.

>>55133448
1. OP never says the guy is fighting them, maybe he is fleeing from them
2. Realworld medieval culture isn't necessarily D&D

>>55130476
>hat is it with people not understanding the Idea that you can quite literally be forced to do something without being enslaved by magic or some shit?
Sorry OP, Guess you're too much of a cocksucker to understand D&D's objective morality.

You eat a person to survive, even though e dead?
Gods have 3+ curses for that, all involve you becoming some fucked up variant of a Ghoul
You wanna be morally grey
Congratulations, you've become Chaotic Evil, and have become a Demon Lord/Elder Evil/Eradicated from existence and only remain as a vestige

Only magic excuses choices made under blackmail, and the gods grant mercy to those who fall in the pursuit of justice and righteousness don't like it? don't play D&D. Because, the security of the afterlife is a thing you know.

The "big bad" MIGHT have have sligt alignment change, but as long as he is willing to repent, he's in the okay zone, It's the parties matter of picking up and making up for his weakness by saving his family and people.

Actually wait, that shit is Lawful evil as fuck, your PC's are going to have a visit from a pit fiend soon.

>>55130476
How can you trust people who have already worked against you?

Killing a potential threat is heavyhanded pragmatic but there is logic there.

>>55133434
>>55133448
I see nothing about defenseless civilian in OP's post, anon.

Are we talking about the same NPC, General Killfucker, who has ordered two genocides and raped three continents and fourteen temples personally?
I mean, sure, he just wanted to protect his village because the BBEG said he'd poison it, fifteen years ago, so why are you planning on readying an attack when he is just standing there on the flagship of his aerial fleet?

Why are players like this?

>>55130476
He had a choice. He could have said no. He could have fought Evil
But there are no heroes left in man

>>55133434
Enemy agents aren't civiliand genius. If he swore an oath to aid the party and betrayed them I see no problem with execution. That said it should be done in a proper way and with an understanding of why he did what he had to do but also the knowledge that he broke his sworn oath and endangered the lives of the men he swore loyalty to.

>>55133448
It was heavily frowned upon to kill peasants in Medieval Europe and it didn't even make much sense; peasants are what give land worth; no peasants and all you have is a bunch of earth.

>>55130476
In the good old days of AD&D, that player and all the other ones following him would have faced that hell called "change of alignment"... Unless they were already evil, obviously.

>>55133661
The big bad threatens civilization with his antics, but it's okay if he repents.
It doesn't matter that his unholy horde has raped and pillaged the land, it was all a misunderstanding.
Killing a traitor that is willing to sacrifice everything for his waifu, even though he knows the evil guy is gonna kill her anyway.
Executing this dumbass for high treason against all civilisations is somehow evil.

Morality all depends on context, even in the objectified DnD setting.

>>55133996
D&D alignments are retarded.

And if you painted him green and put a diaper on him first any change would be avoided.

>>55133996
>suddently the whole group is neutral
>the BBEG is marching against the remaining forces of good
>"hm- going after the villain sounds like a bitch and a half. Wanna grab something to eat at the inn instead?"
>"whatever. I was hungry anway"
>the party that was previously opposing the BBEG goes for scones and coffee
>just_as_planned.keikaku

Good job shooting yourself in the foot btw.

>>55130476
'You should have asked us for help, or told us sooner. Now we know we can't rely on you, and you may set us back again - might even get us all killed. So now you die, goodbye.'

>>55134066
>alignment controls how your character acts
>not the other way around
pls

>>55134095
>implying that saving the world is evil

That's retarded

>>55133996
You mean in the edition where killing orc babies is LG?

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>>55133013
>Klebold Harris

>>55134184
No, I mean the edition where orc babies weren't even mentioned. Because, you know, there wasn't really a need for them.
But obviously you aren't old enough to know that, so feel free to contribute with your "spot-on knowledge" about that.

>>55130476
>"My friend, I perfectly understand and forgive you."
>"However, my plans do not allow for the disruption of betrayal. Too much is at stake. Don't worry, i'll take care of your family and home."

And then I kill him, because i'm Lawful Evil.

>>55134276
"Paladins are not stupid, and in general there is no rule of Lawful Good against killing enemies. The old adage about nits making lice applies. Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before they can backslide.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct.

The Anglo-Saxon punishment for rape and/or murder of a woman was as follows: tearing off of the scalp, cutting off of the ears and nose, blinding, chopping off of the feet and hands, and leaving the criminal beside the road for all bypassers to see. I don't know if they cauterized the limb stumps or not before doing that. It was said that a woman and child could walk the length and breadth of England without fear of molestation then...


Chivington might have been quoted as saying "nits make lice," but he is certainly not the first one to make such an observation as it is an observable fact. If you have read the account of wooden Leg, a warrior of the Cheyenne tribe that fought against Custer et al., he dispassionately noted killing an enemy squaw for the reason in question.

1/2

>>55134184
All the younger versions of monsters were just a smaller version of the monster itself, and if you tried to inquire about
>no wait, they're too young to be killed actually
you'd only end up killed by a smaller but still pretty lethal version of that giant/dragon/whatever.

>>55130476
>What is it with people not understanding the Idea that you can quite literally be forced to do something without being enslaved by magic or some shit?

It's the old argument levelled at Germans during the war who didn't go BJ Blaskowitz on der furhrer and so are complicit

>>55134276
>>55134304
I am not going to waste my time and yours debating ethics and philosophy. I will state unequivocally that in the alignment system as presented in OAD&D, an eye for an eye is lawful and just, Lawful Good, as misconduct is to be punished under just laws.

Lawful Neutrality countenances malign laws. Lawful Good does not.

Mercy is to be displayed for the lawbreaker that does so by accident. Benevolence is for the harmless. Pacifism in the fantasy milieu is for those who would be slaves. They have no place in determining general alignment, albeit justice tempered by mercy is a NG manifestation, whilst well-considered benevolence is generally a mark of Good." -Gary Gygax 2005

Really no question.

>>55130476
He had a choice, though.
He could could warn PCs and they could setup fake death for him if necessary. Instead he choose to stay loyal to BBEG.

>>55130476
Sorry to hear about your group OP. Sounds like a chance to rescue this guy and his town from the BBEG, make some allies, get some info, etc. At least my group would handle it that way. Hell, if the BBEG really intends to follow through on threats they could even set up an ambush for him.

>>55133200
4chan pass retard. you need to stop posting.

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>>55134397
>several hours later
>Still trying to save face after getting called a retard by like 5 separate people

Many keks

>>55133166
Why do i get the idea that you would argue every "chaotic neutral" into being a saint.

Nah, you murdered a dude who was looking out for his family and friends.

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>>55134162
>>55134066
>>Implying thats how alignment works.

Read nigga

>>55134067
>>55134067
Not casting him away from the party?

>>55134293
At least this guy can admit he is evil. Thank you Anon, you are the better man.

>>55134414
new phone who dis? im a new guy honestly.which one are you?

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>>55130476
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnkbJ-H4r5k

>>55133120

Underrated post.

>>55134416
you murdered a dude who assisted evil and hindered good.
100% LG

why is it so hard for people to say they'd kill or incapacitate the guy without also being a fucking edgelord about it?

Christ I get that it's an imaginary character from a made up universe, but going full judge dredd just makes you sound like a petulant 13yo.

>>55134416

IRL if someone kidnaps your family and gives you a gun to shoot the president, you're expected to call the cops.
Not to shoot at the president and then claim you weren't responsible.
A man is free to choose his course of action.
He cannot choose the consequences of his actions.

>>55134566
Because, the act itself is pretty fucking edgy. Hell, Dredd himself prefers not to kill creeps in those particular circumstances.

>>55134630
Dredd can just lock them in an isocube and stop worrying though. not so easy in a medieval society where jail isn't a thing.

>>55134429
Killing someone who is stopping you from killing someone who wants to destroy the world is not evil.

>>55134650
so the only option is "psssh, nothin personnel kid"?

>>55134689
more like 'face mortal justice, then divine justice. better hope you were a good guy otherwise'

>>55130476
"Muh children/ I'll mother" and other "I was forced" BS is what most captured goons start telling when I GM. Sometimes that's even partially true. If your evil minions don't try to weasel out when they can't run or fight PCs then either they are mindless constructs or you are a shitty GM

>>55132124
The Benny Hill music is still playing, so he had to spin in circles

>>55130476

Just keep track of how many times the party does stuff like this. If they take the 'kill everyone who gets in our way' approach too many times, before the fight against the BBEG is even over start introducing new adventurers who exist to hunt down and kill the party.

Congrats! From an outside perspective, you are a wandering group of monsters who slaughter people without mercy. To the people left in your wake, YOU are the next BBEG.

>>55134416
>Nah, you murdered a dude who was looking out for his family and friends.
Yeah, murdered a dude looking out for his family and friends by assisting a presumably genocidal maniac threatening said family and friends.

PROTIP: if you wanted to do the right thing, you should have asked the heroes to help, not backed the villain.

>>55133413

I think you misunderstand. The way I read OP's post, if the guy didn't delay the PCs (not even kill them, just slow them down) his entire town was going to be killed.

The fact that the party is bothering to talk to him at all means his plan worked. Damage done. Whats more, the moment you leave his town behind he stops being a threat.

There really isn't any point in killing him besides spite.

>>55134761
>before the fight against the BBEG is even over start introducing new adventurers who exist to hunt down and kill the party.
Why, because they're doing the right thing?

>Congrats! From an outside perspective, you are a wandering group of monsters who slaughter people without mercy. To the people left in your wake, YOU are the next BBEG.
bullshit

>>55134762

That's a great plan, except for one thing:

Tomorrow, the heroes leave.

If a week from now the BBEG sends some dudes to fuck up your town in punishment, the fact that the heroes helped you TODAY won't save shit.

>>55130476
Everything depends on presentation. You pretty much failed in that regard if you wanted that NPC to survive.

>NPC realizes PCs know
>runs away benny hill style
>gets caught and goes "Muh family!"
>PC's take it as a cheap attempt to bargain for his life
>ded

Try this instead.

>PCs break down door of NPC house
>NPC sitting on a chair in a dimly lit room
>an open bottle on a nearby table
>a childs toy next to it
>head buried in hands

With this setup the inner murderhobo should take a halt in most cases.

>>55134795

> the BBEG uses indiscriminate murder to accomplish his goals for power

> the party uses indiscriminate murder to accomplish their goals to thwart the BBEG

After a certain point, all anyone not following the story from your perspective knows is that every time you go someplace everyone fucking dies.

>>55134788
>this guy has the means to slow down the PC, and the BBEG has a hold over him
>clearly we should let him go as the BBEG is an honourable man and won't do exactly the same thing tomorrow

>>55134801
Congratulations, the BBEG's going to keep threatening to kill your town every week. Perhaps if you'd helped the heroes instead of slowing them down they could actually remove the yoke from your neck?

Besides, what's the BBEG going to do, send his bodyguards to fuck your town up while the heroes stab him to death?

>>55134706
I suppose in a universe where the afterlife is fully confirmed with active gods, killing someone and sending them to their maker holds less weight than in our universe.

>>55134814
>> the party uses indiscriminate murder to accomplish their goals to thwart the BBEG
>After a certain point, all anyone not following the story from your perspective knows is that every time you go someplace everyone fucking dies.
Yes, because killing minions working directly for the BBEG is "indiscriminate murder".

Try again.

>>55134828

What kind of chickenshit BBEG doesn't have minions?

Can you imagine how pathetic Sauron would have been if it was just him and the Ringwraiths, no orcs or anything else? He'd never get anything done. He can terrorize maybe a town at a time, but he would be more of an annoyance than a threat despite being immortal.

>>55134853

It is, though.

When was the last time your party took prisoners or gave quarter? When was the last time your party routed an enemy force rather than just killing all of them?

If they behave anything like a typical dnd party, indiscriminate murder 100% sums up their go-to battle strategy.

>>55134814
>>55134873
>indiscriminate murder
in fact the heroes DO discriminate
against criminals and monsters
look up what 'indiscriminate' means, retard

>all anyone not following the story from your perspective knows is that every time you go someplace everyone fucking dies.
>implying it wouldn't spread that one guy want to kill everybody and the other guys kill anyone who fucks with them

>>55130476
I guess I can't fight any of the BBEG's minions, since they could all be forced to work for him for a variety of reasons.
I also can't fight any summoned beings since they've likely been summoned against their will.
I can't fight any animals that attack me in the forest because they're maybe forced to attack to me to protect their children.
And depending on what made the BBEG do all the bad shit, guess I can't fight him either. All it takes is for him to say he has no choice and I have to stop my attacks on him.

>>55134795
>the right thing
from your perspective.

>>55134761
I want this to happen more often.

cause hate and vengeance is a thing. I could imagine a wealthy widow hiring a high level legendary bounty hunter to go after the group, or just putting a reward out for their lives.

it would be really cool if players actually had to think about the consequences of their actions before they do stupid shit, and since basic human empathy doesn't translate well in a murderhobo simulator, having someone who is just as indiscriminate as them trying to kill them seems fair.

>>55134873
You are "special", aren't you?

>>55134873

You're just speculating.
Besides, conceptions of what is morally acceptable or not depend heavily on circumstance.

If you slaughter every last orc in a tribe, not just the men, but the women and children too, the town is probably going to raise a statue to you for getting rid of a fearful enemy.

If you kill every bandit you meet, you can probably turn in their scalps for bounties.

Outlaws, as the term came to be, meant someone completely outside the protection of the law. Bandits, murderers, rapists, these people were outlaws.
Justice exists only as it is enforced in any one place. In D&D that's typically feudal justice, as decided by the lord.
Stop using modern conceptions of morality in a game where the very forces of Good and Evil are physical energies you can measure.

>>55134856
>What kind of chickenshit BBEG doesn't have minions?
Nothing wrong with someone having minions.

Just be aware that being a minion may lead to sudden violent death.

>>55134873
Yesterday. We ambushed a bunch of paladins picking up an armour shipment to forment rebellion, and tore through then with mostly causing nonlethal damage.

Some of them may have exploded from being punched too hard nonlethally.

Good thing we went nonlethal, too, they were not actually paladins but mind controlled actor prostitutes set up as a propaganda effect to discredit the Lawful Evil regime that we worked for.

>>55134916
>from your perspective.
objectively
commit crimes or aid criminals, get punished.

>cause hate and vengeance is a thing. I could imagine a wealthy widow hiring a high level legendary bounty hunter to go after the group, or just putting a reward out for their lives.
cool, more criminals to execute.

>basic human empathy
lol, nice excuse for HE DINDU NUFFIN
are you a nigger or liberal by chance?

>>55130476
people who play these games tend to be single loners with no families and no strong emotional ties to people. They're incapable of feeling the responsibility that a parent would 8f their children were in dangerm

>>55134943
Are you an asshole with an absolute and relative morality?

>>55134969
>implying
You are aware that some people may be the oldest sibling in their family and know the feeling of having to look after someone younger than themselves right? Probably not considering your post.

>>55134650
Jail is absolutely a thing in most D&D and fantasy settings. Along with Town Guards, Potatoes, and a dozen other minor anachronisms. that exist within the milieu.

Look, I paid five whole dollars for those words, I'm gonna use 'em.

>>55134969
>save your child for a while
>endanger and probably kill hundreds of children of other people in the process if not dooming the world
>not the behaviour of an selfish asshole.

>>55134985
>DnD
>thinking relative morality is a thing
fuck off, fairy.

>>55132887
FULL GODWIN

>>55130476
>BBEG

Ugh.

"Has your character ever murdered someone in cold blood before?"
"No"
"Make a DC26 will save to ignore the psychological trauma of summarily executing a surrendering prisoner"
"Also you're no longer Good"

Wa-la

>>55134943
>lol, nice excuse for HE DINDU NUFFIN
are you a nigger or liberal by chance?

are you 13 by chance?

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>>55135003
I know right, I bet these idiots don't even know what 'antagonist' means

>>55135033
>unironically likes edgy game of thrones grey morality
>calls other people 13
?

>>55130541
I hope someone shits down your throat, you joyless cunt.

>>55130541
>we
You don't speak for all players; most are violent because that's the sort of 1 dimensional game they want to play.
Personally I prefer more realistic motivations for evil characters like OP's over "she's a black dragon, so she must be inherently evil; he's a necromancer, so he wants to kill your family and turn them into sex slaves; etc".
I know you're going to say OP's description isn't realistic, but looking back through history violence and the threat of violence was one of the main tactics used to force compliance on a personal as well as a national or international scale, see: Nazism and fascism , communism, criminal gangs and the mafia, colonial rule and imperialism, feudalism and monarchy, right up to the behaviour of antifa in the US today!

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>>55135008
>telling the Players how their PC feels

>>55135065
>le mean violent antifa meme
Nice job throwing your opinion in the shitter

>>55135088
Violence against people you don't like is still violence. Don't make me quote MLK at you. I will do it.

>>55135065
>I know you're going to say OP's description isn't realistic, but looking back through history violence and the threat of violence was one of the main tactics used to force compliance on a personal as well as a national or international scale, see: Nazism and fascism , communism, criminal gangs and the mafia, colonial rule and imperialism, feudalism and monarchy, right up to the behaviour of antifa in the US today!
It's realistic, but so is the response.

What, you think in a land where someone can threaten to kill a whole town people will balk at killing someone helping oppress the people?

>>55135088
Wow, he's literally a violent leftycuck. no wonder he's so delusional.
Fuck off to plebbit

>>55134943
so if a commander is found guilty of a war crime, all of his subordinates should be held equally accountable?

I assume this goes all the way to the top? so if the leaders of a country issue a command which costs the lives of innocents, then everyone in that country is equally to blame?

Doesn't anyone else know that the concept of "universal rights" as extended to criminals is a recent idea?
Usually, there were no written laws and justice was meted out by the noble (if important) or the council of elders/mayor of the place (if minor).
If someone ran away, or had a weapon, you could kill them.
Most of this shit came from the Enlightenment.
Most of D&D is set per-Enlightenment.

>>55135109
>all of his subordinates should be held equally accountable
those that assisted

>so if the leaders of a country issue a command which costs the lives of innocents, then everyone in that country is equally to blame?
are you just bad at setting up strawmen or are you actually retarded?

>>55135082
"After 12 adventures of not addressing the psychological trauma of a life of adventuring, you break down sobbing and take 6d10 psychic damage"
"I'm in critical"
"Your friends pretend not to know the sobbing dying man and nobody revives you"

>>55135048
>grey morality
>edgy
>black and white morality
>not edgy

im sorry you haven't experienced the real world yet. if you ever leave your parents basement, in your well policed suburban neighborhood you'll understand.

>>55135109
What?
No, the soldier is responsible for his personal actions. What in the world are you reading?

>NPC takes direct action against PCs to hinder them from going after BBEG
>NPC tries to absolve responsibility for his action by saying he was under duress

NPC is basically saying "I was only following orders".

He isn't responsible for what the BBEG does, he is responsible for directly aiding the BBEG.

>>55135136
Stop being a nigger, get a job. Morality isn't subjective just because you feel bad about being subhuman trash.

>>55135131
>implying people don't go to taverns to drink and forget all of the killing
Like, get out of here. You're shit at GMing, I'll make a much better game than you

>>55135159
"After accusing the GM of being shit your character turns into a pile of shit and you take 8d10 shit damage, you're shit, get out of my house"
Good going IDIOT

>>55135122
>those that assisted

>don't murder the villagers = tried for insubordination
>murder the villagers = tried for war crimes for following orders

also, why wouldn't the countrymen be to blame? they are supporting their leaders by inaction. since we're using black and white morality anyone not actively trying to stop the bad guy is helping him. with us or against us.

or is there a third, grey option?

>>55135185
>implying a chink tapestry-weaving tent is your house

>>55135188
>>don't murder the villagers and desert or rebel = not necessarily tried for insubordination, but at risk
nobody said that good = easy

>since we're using black and white morality anyone not actively trying to stop the bad guy is helping him. with us or against us.
your strawmen are getting worse. what's next, an MSpaint comic?

>>55135151
>anyone who disagrees with me is a lefty socialist jobless nigger

you are just as bad as the people you hate, fucking kys

>>55135206
>I have no response to his argument
>ill call it a strawman, that'll make it go away

>>55135110
Human rights for righteous humans.

>>55132124
How fucking new are you? It's scary to think that the xbox 360 is older than the underage shitposters on /v/.

>>55135234
making up unrelated stuff isn't an argument, anon. lack and White morality doesn't mean it's with us or against us, it means there's no excuse for acting like a porch monkey

>>55135208
>implying you aren't

>>55135188
>since we're using black and white morality anyone not actively trying to stop the bad guy is helping him. with us or against us.
>or is there a third, grey option?
Yeah, move the fuck away from the conflict zone. Laugh when the BBEG threatens you and pay someone to guard your fucking well so one guy can't murder an entire village, and charge the heroes exorbitantly to pay for it.

PROTIP: Most people don't actively assist the BBEG. The ones that do, are directly complicit in the BBEG's actions.

How hard is this to understand?

>>55135270
>14y/o super edgy racism
>inb4 you ironically use the word cuck

man, and here I thought the left was overreacting

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>>55135110
"Judge not, lest you be judged" is a bit older than the enlightenment. Also did you miss my post about anachronisms. People eat potatoes in jail cells, we can absolutely have enlightenment era morality in a fantasy universe, because Fantasy isn't necessarily "Medieval Simulator plus Goblins."

>>55135317
>stating the truth is now racism
top kek

>>55135326
>we can absolutely have enlightenment era morality in a fantasy universe, because Fantasy isn't necessarily "Medieval Simulator plus Goblins."
Sure, but you're going to actually follow the morality of what the players are using, or you won't have players in your campaign.


There's plenty of reason to attack someone who can and has hindered you and has no reason not to continue hindering you.

>>55135280
And then your family is taken hosta-Oh who am I kidding, your character's an edgy orphan.

>>55134943
>objectively
>commit crimes or aid criminals, get punished.
But by taking the law into their own hands they themselves are committing a crime.
>cool, more criminals to execute.
You are the criminals who are going to be executed here!
>>55135270
He isn't making up unrelated stuff. You don't know how to respond but that's because of your faults and gaps in your reasoning and knowledge, not because what he is saying is unrelated. On the other hand:
>implying you aren't
IS made up and unrelated, because you don't know what his political views and race are, but even if you did know it wouldn't be relevant to the discussion at hand, about the causes of crime and vigilantism.

>>55135388
>But by taking the law into their own hands they themselves are committing a crime.
not in ye olden times
justice was crowdsourced back then

>He isn't making up unrelated stuff
black and white morality does not imply with us or against us, try again

>>55135342
Using racial slurs is racist.

>>55135411
>calling someone on 4chan a racist
you're new here, aren't you?

>>55130476
This thread is why I prefer grim, violent settings like Warhammer's Old World, The Witcher"s Northern Kingdoms, Westeros, The Weird West of Deadlands or Cybepunk 2020's Night City over the incredibly 1-dimensional Saturday Morning Cartoon version of Fantasy that D&D/Pathfinder enforce by their very ruleset.

In these kinds of worlds it's expected that Player Characters will do morally questionable things some of the time.

>>55135411
That depends on the person really. I personally believe nigger to be a state of mind and action, not a state of being. There are many great black men, but there's also a lot of niggers and white trash that need lynching

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>>55130476
>You don't UNDERSTAND! I raped twenty children because I was FORCED TO!
>You wouldn't understand the crushing guilt I feel having been forced to rape twenty children! I couldn't back out!

>>55135376
>And then your family is taken hosta-Oh who am I kidding, your character's an edgy orphan.
The strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must.

If you've got enough strength to oppose the heroes, you have sufficient strength to oppose the villains. If you don't have enough strength to oppose either, don't try appeasing only one side and expect the other to let you walk away freely.

There are things that my character would betray to protect, but my character wouldn't fucking say "I didn't have any choice" and expect to be spared. It'd be my character's choice to do something wrong, and he'd take the punishment for it.


You know what? Here's what a better line from the NPC would be.
"Kill me if you must, but please, if you can, save my family. He has them in *blah blah blah* and it's not too far out of your way. If you do, I'll tell you everything I know."

First, you've got some fucking leverage.
Second, you take some fucking responsibility for your actions.
Third, you still actually have a better chance of getting the heroes to save your family instead of killing you and letting the BBEG possibly have them killed off anyway for failing.

See what the difference is? OP's NPC is dodging responsibility, while this NPC is owning up to their actions and still trying to protect what they want to protect.

>>55135326

"Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you."
Matthew 7:1-2

Jesus said not to apply double standards.

And the only way to have moral anachronism is if the society is no longer medieval.
And so the setting wouldn't be standard D&D.
In which case, yes, the PCs would be responsible for vigilantism and maybe murder.
But even by the 1800s people were still put to death for conspiracy to overthrow the legal rulers.

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>>55135464
You know what?
Good post, anon.

>>55135464
This NPC could be a coward who ran from their actions and guilt by telling themselves they were forced, but OP seems not to have done that

>>55135429
what part of "racial slur" aren't you getting?

>>55135404
>not in ye olden times
You don't know as much as you think about early criminal justice. It was never acceptable for an individual to decide that a crime has been committed, choose a punishment and then enact that punishment. You would sometimes have the public take part in the punishment, but they would never act as "judge, jury and executioner".
>black and white morality does not imply with us or against us, try again
Yes it does. Black and white morality means everything is either good or bad, white or black. If aiding the BBEG is bad, clearly fighting against him is good. If you have the chance to fight or damage the BBEG but don't take it, you obviously haven't done anything good, but morality is (in this hypothetical) black and white so an action that isn't good must be bad.
You're not denied that you are making up unrelated stuff, though -- or do you think the guy's political and racial characteristics are relevant?

>>55135464
It seems more like the difference is, the NPC gives you permission to act like a murderhobo, while the other tries to talk you out of it.

>>55135421
Nah, I've been here since the beginning. I fail to see your point: racial slurs are by definition racist.

>>55135342
>hurrrr nigger nigger socialist nigger
>this is how I argue cause I can't think of anything else
>im speaking the truth!!!
>stop trying to sensor the truth!
>calling me out for being an edgy 14/yo racist asshole is somehow violating my 1st amendment rights

you must be 18 to post here

>>55135505
The first NPC is still an obstacle to the murderhobos, the second NPC is giving you a protection quest.

If you want murderhobos to not act like murderhobos, you'd best give them a reason better than a moral one.

>>55133434

A poisoner isn't a defenseless civilian. He's a war criminal about to get sworded.

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>>55134306

Basically this. This is why you don't spare orc babies.

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>>55135612

Remember, an enemy you kill today is one you don't have to deal with in the future.

>>55134472
Fucking nice taste in music
Act III coming sometime this year right?

>>55135641
I have no idea

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>>55135630

As Gygax says, nits make lice.

Only once had a DM trying to pull a moral dilemma on me.

>King sends party to investigate temple in city in neighboring country, for unclear reasons
>We get there, nice place, there's a sex orgy/booze festival going on
>We enjoy ourselves, and the following night sneak into the temple
>Run into a demon and kick its ass
>It reveals that the reason the city is so nice and everyone is so happy is because they have a deal with dark powers to keep a single kid locked up and tortured at all times
>The deal will be broken if anyone ever does anything nice to the kid
>We find the kid, free him, and give him a food ration
>Ominous rumbling from the skies
>Grab the kid, run out of the temple, steal a horse cart, and GTFO
>City is destroyed in a meteor rain behind us
>We are all happy over a job well done

The GM later told us this was supposed to be a dilemma

>>55135612
>>55135630
>>55135654

Jesus, man. Where's that from?

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>>55135661
stolen from that lesbo sci-fi granny.

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>>55135688

>I was following orders

If you don't accept this you lack basic empathy. Sometimes you don't have a choice.

>>55135612

That manga is the bane of my fucking existence. My players behave exactly like that. Send them into a dungeon, it's like they're there to remove kebab. Nothing survives.

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>>55135726
So? Does this mean that the players are going to keep every enemy soldier as a prisoner until they beat the BBEG?

>>55135726

That's why we let all the Nazis off, right?

edgelord gonna edge.
most people here are posting from first world countries where they've never had to make a decision like this and never will, so it's super easy to take the moral high ground in a hypothetical situation with no real consequences. people talk a big game about right and wrong, but unless they're looking down that barrel, all of this is just speculation and bravado.

>>55135820

First world countries have the most lenient moral and criminal codes.
In second world countries, the punishments are harsh and usually unfair.
In the third world, they outright kill you for all sorts of shit.

It's almost like you think cynicism is some great virtue, and something to be admired.
But it never really works like that, and in any case, you have to actually *know* something to be cynical of it.

>>55135820

Yeah, basically this. In a situation like that, I'd be completely unable to take the moral high ground. I would be so angry I would just gut the traitor.

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>>55135688
You probably won't enjoy it, but you need the dres to know what a good drink it
Goblin Slayer Chapter 13, to give the enemy leader backstory as he leads the assault on the home of the MC

>>55135751
Actually yeah, we totally did. And in those cases when we did not, the Nazis in question usually had plenty of opportunities to avoid killing Jews at a cost of minor-to-moderate embarassment to themselves - very few Germans were threatened with losing their lives over not volunteering for civillian liquidation.
Press-ganged collaborationists were a whole different can of worms, though, they got the rawest deal.

>>55135737
But sometimes kebab should be removed. You cut out all the cancer, or it could come back. Especially malignant cancer

>>55135726
There's always a choice.

Some choices lead to undesirable outcomes.

Man up and take responsibility for it.

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>>55133013
>this is who you're posting on /tg/ with

>>55135890
Taking responsibility does not equal submitting to injustice out of fearful idolatry, anon.

>>55135726
Ok, /tg/, let's think up some good one-liners to retort with before executing this fool!

>So am I.

>Good dog. Here's your reward.

>Maybe you should have thought about what following orders would lead you to.

>I'm sure that'll comfort you in your grave.

>Tell it to the devil.

Any other contenders?

>>55135726
Harming other so you yourself don't come to harm is something we need to function as social beings, but there is a point after which it becomes indefensible. German soldiers who spent WWII policing some French town probably didn't deserve worse than having to live in post-war Germany, but German soldiers who fought bitterly for years so a million civilians can starve or freeze to death in besieged Leningrad deserved neither quarter or mercy of any kind.

>>55135946

I honestly can't see the injustice it in. If someone goes "Stab this man, or I'll kill you", you have a lot of choices. You can try to kill the man who gave the order. You can stab yourself. You can refuse.

But instead you chose to do the wrong thing.

>>55135968
>russian
>human

>>55135946
>Taking responsibility does not equal submitting to injustice out of fearful idolatry, anon.
I'm trying to parse your statement here. Submitting to injustice, I can see that as "fighting the PCs", but I'm not sure where idolatry comes from. Who's even being worshipped?

The bad guy? Because it looks like you're shooting your own argument in the foot here.

>>55135845
my point is that you have the luxury of sitting here, taking the moral high ground in a situation that you'll likely never encounter. you have the luxury of making a cold calculation of justice because your family will never be held hostage by jihadists or whatever. you aren't looking into the eyes of a terrified, crying man who's only current aspiration in life is to see his family alive one more time.

all of this is hypothetical. you can rationalize and talk coldly about other countries justice systems and say "well we're the most fair" and act tough on crime, but until you're there, it's all just talk.

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>>55135661
Doesn't your GM know that the punishment for heresy is death. Consorting with demons is a crime without equals

>>55136008
Compared to Germans? People with no good food, good booze or sense of humor, who have tried to take over the world twice in 30 years?

>>55136031
>you have the luxury of making a cold calculation of justice because your family will never be held hostage by jihadists or whatever. you aren't looking into the eyes of a terrified, crying man who's only current aspiration in life is to see his family alive one more time.

So?

This is make believe, for one. We're playing roles.

And in OP's scenario, every second wasted arguing over this guy is time better spent chasing the BBEG.

>BBEG

Ugh.

>>55136065

Exactly. Kill him fast, and leave his corpse for the ravens.

>>55130476
Turn the NPC to prison, or something. If someone blackmails you into doing harmful things, you're supposed to contact the police/guards.

If you're in a situation where you can't contact the police/guards without your family getting their heads chopped off, that really sucks. But most laws don't take that as an excuse for YOU to go around harming other people.

And if there is no prison to put the NPC in, then the best course of action is to kill them, as they are likely to just come back and harm people again in the future.

Of course this all depends on a lot of context.

>>55135968
But in this case, the German soldiers croaking their way through the Eastern front were in fact lacking in capacity to affect their situation well to the point of becoming somewhat defensible in their atrocities, Indeed, those who were policing the French might well be considered more deserving of blame, as their lot was much less desperate - and therefore much more voluntary.

>>55136065
sure. it's not real, so edgelord away I guess.

>>55136031

And my point is that this is the only situation in which the NPC is even offered any mercy.
Because we get to talk about it.

This doesn't change the fact that we have the ability to discern good from evil.
The NPC, in theory, can do this as well. One would argue he *knows* he did something wrong, since he's fleeing.
Under every judicial system in the middle ages, he'd be put to death.

If the PCs are just a mob, what they're doing is unlawful, but it's unlawful enforcement of the law. The punishment for this would be pretty lenient. It's implicit that what they did was good, just not done correctly.

>>55136031
By this logic, the only people who should be allowed to write, uphold, or work with laws are the <0.001% of people who have had to "stare at a crying man who just wants to see his family alive one more time".

That isn't how the real world works.

>>55136120
>implying there are prisons in a world set in the dark fucking ages.

>>55136134
>But in this case, the German soldiers croaking their way through the Eastern front were in fact lacking in capacity to affect their situation well to the point of becoming somewhat defensible in their atrocities, Indeed, those who were policing the French might well be considered more deserving of blame, as their lot was much less desperate - and therefore much more voluntary.
Sometimes you get dealt a shitty hand. Die yourself, run and risk execution or death at the hands of the enemy, or kill and kill and be responsible for mass murder, and be found guilty at the end of it.

You still had a choice, and if you chose to kill others to have the best chance of surviving, you've got to pay for that afterwards.

Fair? No. But it's something you need to pay up, unless you start running from the law after.

Frankly, that's a perfectly valid option. Change your name, change your hairstyle, move countries, you might maximise your survival time. Just don't say that you didn't have any other choice. There's almost always a choice, even if that choice is suicide.

>All these people complaining about "le edgelord"
Stop playing undertale.

Adventurers (even the Lawful Good ones) are generally uneducated people who've left their lives behind to go around fighting shit. If your DnD campaign is designed to be a children's cartoon show, then it's perfectly reasonable for such adventurers to be non-edgy all the time.

But if you're running any sort of DnD game where it's not aiming to be a children's cartoon show, then the most likely outcome for a bunch of armed killers traveling through the world is for them to be "edgy".

It's not a normal person that hangs their hat one day and says "I'm going to be an adventurer!".

>>55136031
You know this place is not 100% suburban Americans, right?

>>55136201
Read the post again.

>>55136168
>>55136172
I'm not taking about the judicial system or the law or whether the pc's are "justified" in killing this guy. im taking about the actual decision a real human would have to make when deciding kill this guy or not. because real people aren't cold unfeeling robots who decide to end someone's life simply because according to the law, they can.

but I can't fault people for taking the cold calculated approach in a game with no real consequences.

>>55136061
The slavs were just as aggressive during before the start of the war, and after the war they back dozens of mass murdering communistic regimes like Mao and friends.

On top of that the Russians have always been a backwards brutish people fueled by alcohol and hatred for everything nice. They're just wired up to crave burning. Russia is more like Minas Morgul than any civilized kingdom. The Russians tolerated Soviet rule of mass murder and concentration camps for 70 years.

There's a reason the Russian literary tradition is so good. Good writing comes from adversity, and Russia is, and always has been, the fucked up back end of Europe.

>>55136226
>the only first world country is the United States.

anon...

>>55136304
I'm not making the choice myself.

I have a character who isn't me, who doesn't live the same life as me, and for whom it is perfectly likely to kill someone in a situation like this.

This is basic roleplaying. All of DnD and other tabletop RPGs are based around this concept.

>>55136304

Killing isn't some strange and frightening thing to Adventurers. Unless they just started out, they've probably killed quite a few sentient beings.

The judicial system is based on the moral conception of a society.

Killing the NPC is not only just, but legal AND it's morally satisfying for the violent, murderous PCs who roam the country side, without a home, selling their armed services for coin.
Shit, son, between wars, mercenary companies would wander around pillaging and killing because they had no other source of income.
Life was fucking brutal.

>>55136320
Grandpa died on the Eastern Front, I presume?

>>55136202
>be found guilty at the end of it.
And wrongfully so, if justice means anything more morally demanding than mere political persecution in the name of earthly power and wealth.
>you've got to pay for that afterwards
Not if making them pay is an act of injustice on our side, and you seem somewhat content to concede this point.
> even if that choice is suicide.
But hedonistic self-killing is a choice even more blameworty than the wartime killing of others, especially given obvious lack of prescriptive external compulsions to go through with it.

>>55136378

Not that guy but he's completely right.
You gotta remember that up until the revolutions, Russia was a feudal state.
In goddamn 1917.
They were as backward as it got.

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>>55136378
No. Anyone with eyes can see that the russians are insane. Probably has something to do with being part tribal, part viking raider, part mongol raider.

>>55136412
I'm aware that Russia was and is an imperialist shithole regardless of its name or flag, but anon seems awfully defensive.

>>55136411
>And wrongfully so, if justice means anything more morally demanding than mere political persecution in the name of earthly power and wealth.
Justice is a means to dissuading certain actions. Like war crimes, or other illegalities. Ideally, you'd not have done anything morally wrong while following orders, and you wouldn't be punished for anything. But if you carried out proscribed actions, like mass murder, yeah, you'd still be guilty for it.

The reasoning is simple; you've got to have something to dissuade people from those acts. If you can get people to do it simply by threatening them, and then no punishment comes, then everyone would start simply threatening their forces into breaking the law.

Making people pay for crimes is 100% justice.

>But hedonistic self-killing is a choice even more blameworthy than the wartime killing of others, especially given obvious lack of prescriptive external compulsions to go through with it.

Since this thread's already been godwin'd, I'll state never heard any suicide being called worse than hitler.

>>55136351
>>55136360
empathy doesn't work in a murderhobo simulator.

having any character be sympathetic without something tying them to the party is a mistake on the dm's part.

>>55136571

Empathy works fine, asshat, it's just that feeling bad for someone doesn't excuse them from their actions.
It's almost like virtually everyone who commits crimes is actually in some sense, suffering, yet we accept it's never ok to steal from people.
You're just retarded.

>>55136653
thanks for proving my point

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>>55136475
Meanwhile, in Russia
> On the third day of the standoff, Russian security forces stormed the building with the use of tanks, incendiary rockets and other heavy weapons.[6] At least 330 hostages were killed, including 186 children,[7][8] with a significant number of people injured and reported missing.

>>55136706
What is your point?
"It's fine to commit crimes if you had a good reason for it"

"you should not punish crimes if the person had a motive"

What exactly is your point?

>>55133259
I know you're trying to make it seem like OP's point is wrong, but your two situations are completely different

OP's scenario:
>PCs have captured the NPC
>NPC is no real threat to them, he's just making their quest to hunt the Boss more difficult
>NPC claims BBEG threatened to kill his loved ones and doom his entire town to starvation if he didn't comply
>PCs have him completely at their mercy and can keep him from obstructing their search in any number of ways
>Their response is "hurr you still had a choice" and they attack

Your scenario:
>NPC is acting independently
>He critically wounded one of the PCs and is threatening to kill the others
>His excuse is "I really need the money guize"
>PCs have limited options, most of which involve neutralizing the threat
>They take one of these options

OP's point here is justified. Although killing the NPC is still a perfectly viable action for the PCs to take - unless OP's railroading, which he's said nothing to suggest - you have to be a special kind of murderhobo to consider murdering a defenseless guy whose only "choice" was either destroy some evidence or let his entire village die.

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>Spetsnaz operators from Federal Security Service (FSB) Alpha and Vega Groups, supported by a Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD) SOBR unit, pumped an undisclosed chemical agent into the building's ventilation system and began the rescue operation.[1]

>All 40 of the attackers were killed,[2] with no casualties among Spetsnaz; about 130 hostages died, including nine foreigners, due to adverse reactions to the gas.[2] All but two of the hostages who died during the siege were killed by the toxic substance pumped into the theater to subdue the militants.

>>55136756

His point seems to be "if you have the capacity to feel bad for someone, you shouldn't punish them for doing bad things".
I would say he's 12, but teenagers tend to be quite cruel.

>>55130476
So if the BBEG employs a carrot and stick motivation for his underlings, where loyalty is rewarded and failure is punished, it strips anyone working for him of moral responsibility of any kind?
also "sets the party back" makes it sound like a minor inconvenience, but since that could very well include things like "murder the oracle before we could seek her wisdom" or, hell, literally any actions he could take acting only under the order of "stop them" yeah, no.

you're a shitty GM for not just rolling with it when they kill your shitty plothook

>>55136756
>what is jury nullification

it's called humans having humanity.

sometimes we choose not to punish someone because of their circumstances. we decide that the law can't possibly cover every single edge case and that sometimes people deserve leniency.

but again, online hypothetical = rule of law, word by word, no exceptions.

>>55133783
>NPC sets the party back during the hunt for the BBEG
>*Benny Hill Music*
>They catch him
Does this seem like a large-scale battle against General Killfucker to you anon? You're reaching.

>>55136761
>OP's point here is justified. Although killing the NPC is still a perfectly viable action for the PCs to take - unless OP's railroading, which he's said nothing to suggest - you have to be a special kind of murderhobo to consider murdering a defenseless guy whose only "choice" was either destroy some evidence or let his entire village die.
Really, it's very variable depending on what exactly the NPC did.

"setting the party back" could be anything from hiding the Player Character's keys to their cars, to ordering a literal army to burn down a city so the PCs can't trace the BBEG.

It's probably not justified for the first, but the second is probably more justified.

Shooting the medic in the neck slows down the enemy pretty effectively.

>>55136772
Relevant

>>55134067
This anon gets it. Anyone who may bring a slight inconvenience to the PCs deserves death without appeal. Your moral worth as a human being depends on how useful you are to the almighty Player Characters.

>>55134513
TIL there are actually people on /tg/ whose views of good and evil are THIS black and white

>>55136916

Player characters don't have to be experts on morality. Betrayal equals death is perfectly acceptable for a group of hyper-capable militants.

>>55136819
>sometimes we choose not to punish someone because of their circumstances. we decide that the law can't possibly cover every single edge case and that sometimes people deserve leniency.

You do know that jury nullification is the rare exception, not the norm, right?

It's not "sometimes", it's "extremely rarely".

If you throw yourself on mercy, be ready to bounce.

>>55136916
>This anon gets it. Anyone who is assisting someone willing to kill off an entire town so he can get away to terrorise and cause further harm to others is complicit in their actions.

>>55134852
I'd argue it holds more weight. Killing a criminal before they get any chance to repent is basically sentencing them to the harsh judgement of the Gods.

>>55137036
Ah, so you first get them to repent, THEN you kill them.

Got it, thanks for the clarification!

>>55136999
>people never choose not to press charges
>police never let you off with a warning
>courts never accept plea bargains

happens more than you may think, and leniency doesn't mean "no justice".

>>55137075
It's funny, because my current group is one of the most pacifistic group ever. We've helped goblins resettle, tried talking down orc armies, and helped someone who tricked us into a mission that was for the BBEG.

It still doesn't mean that that the instant execution option isn't on the table for people who need to be stopped dead.

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>>55134943
This wouldn't happen to be your character, would it edgeboy?

>>55137021
ooh shit, is that what "sets the party back" means? I've been using that phrase wrong this whole time.

who'd have thought it actually meant "commits mass murder"

>>55134969
>D&D
>A tabletop game that revolves around social interaction with other players at the table
>favoured by introverted loner-types

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>>55135944

>>55137147
Helping commit mass murder, anon.

Helping.

Reading comprehension will assist when attempting to understand online text interactions.

It depends on the party. Personally in my band of scoundrels, we would have taken quite a few fingers, left him in the desert, and have been on our way, at the very least. If you have a paragon of virtue paladin type on the other hand, I imagine that you would have just sternly told him off.

>>55135088
>antifa isn't violent
What fucking rock do you live under anon?

>>55137075

Man, people keep bringing these current legal and moral concepts to the discussion, like somehow the law hasn't drastically changed over relatively short periods of time.

For context, most trials involved some ridiculous metaphysical test, like throwing someone in freezing water, or making them hold a glowing hot iron for a while.
Prisons were reserved for the wealthy and the nobles, usually as places to keep them safe until their ransoms were paid.
Dungeons were used for others, but they had very limited space. People were kept in a dungeon until they were tortured or mutilated, as a punishment and warning.
All punishments were very harsh and most resulted in death if they weren't outright executions.
Executions, for that matter, where shows. People would spend money for the execution to happen close to their houses/businesses to draw in a crowd.

"Aiding and abetting" was serious crime that could easily result in death.

Shit, in England, I think around the year 1000 something, a dude was sentenced to hang because he'd leave the city at night and come back in the morning, which was evidence enough he was up to no good.
There was a famous case not too long ago about a dude getting raped in Pakistan (Or was it Saudi Arabia?) and getting executed because of it.

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>>55135185
Daniel? Is that you?
Also made me laff

>>55137195
They don't promote violence against minorities, which is good enough in my book.

>>55135421
>Implying every board on 4chan is racist
I'd tell you to go back to /pol/ but I actually like that place and I don't want you shitting it up with your cancer.

>>55137182
>at no point in that response thread did anyone mention mass murder, other than the bbeg doing it to the guy's village if he doesn't comply.
>accuses others of poor reading comprehension.

put your helmet back on and sit the fuck down.

>>55135429
Underrated post

>>55135464
>See what the difference is? OP's NPC is dodging responsibility, while this NPC is owning up to their actions and still trying to protect what they want to protect.
I'm on the other side of the argument but this is 100% correct. The PC still acted unreasonably but the NPC would've been less in the wrong if he actually tried to take responsibility.

>>55137290
>other than the bbeg doing it to the guy's village if he doesn't comply

Oh, so it's fine because he's only helping the guy THREATENING mass murder.

That's all right then.Shit, all we have is this guy is called the big bad evil guy, he might actually just be cursed to register as evil on detect evil spells and sometimes spout lines like killing families, torturing heirs and pollute/cursing oasies keeping towns alive.

Clearly I have not understood and this is merely something who has done nothing wrong, and someone aiding and abetting this noble and honourable BBEG that would never hurt a fly is equally innocent and should in fact be praised and honoured for his actions. Both of them are paragons of Truth, Justice and the American Way. I salute thee, Mr Big Bad Evil Guy, and your coerced minion.

>>55137373

Maybe it's my imagination, but there's been quite a few threads that turned into discussion about morality and these people always show up, insisting there is no right and wrong and it'll all arbitrary and the winner decides all, etc.

I always used to think the /pol/ talk about "degeneracy" was retarded, but I'm beginning to reconsider.

>>55137213
you're right, next time I play dnd I'm going to rub shit on everything and use some backwards ass tradition as my rationale for doing so, and when the dm gets tired of it and everyone dies of cholera ill say it was the best campaign ever because of all of that sweet historical accuracy.

>>55137413
>insisting there is no right and wrong and it'll all arbitrary and the winner decides all, etc.
Well, that's not exactly wrong. If you decide that keeping your village safe is the most important thing, then nothing else matters apart from keeping your village safe. Has the NPC in OP's scenario actually kept his village safe? If he has, then nothing the PCs will do will affect that.

>>55137373
>butthurt wall of text over rightfully being called a retard.

stay mad, corky.

>>55137445

You know, I was going to make some kind of post where I tried to reason with you, but I've decided against it.
Nah, you're an autist so savagely on the far side of the spectrum no man can help you.
God have mercy on your soul.

>>55137413
mostly just threads full of hardline edgy teen asshats who think they know all the answers to actual moral dilemmas because they lack the life experience to realize that life isn't black and white.

I guarantee these fuckwits, when getting pulled over for speeding and let off with a warning, don't demand the cop "do the right thing" and write them a speeding ticket right there.

>>55137510
>autists calling autists autists on autistchan.

>>55130476
>>NPC Sets the party back during the hunt for the BBEG
OP, what exactly did he do?

>>55134162
Someone evil can save the world. The world, after all, is where someone evil keeps all their stuff. They just have to do it in a totally self-serving, ruthless way.

>>55137606
>implying OP's scenario actually happened

>>55137072
Or you could just not kill them for mundane reasons. I'm sorry if the thought of killing gives you a big willy.

>>55137247
Fascists are a minority. Though I suppose your point still stands since most of the people they hurt aren't even fascists.

>>55137480
Sure thing, pikey. Sorry you correlate big words with being mad instead of an attempt at reasoned discussion.

>>55137643
>implying IRL people don't get their lives ruined by being citizens of the losing side of a war

war crimes tribunals make it clear, being coerced into being bad means you should hang

>>55137631
>They just have to do it in a totally self-serving, ruthless way.
Adding to your point, they don't even have to go out of their way to do evil shit while saving the world. They just won't go out of their way to pursue any noble goals unless they personally benefit from them.

>>55137756
Looks like you missed champ

>>55137713
>passive aggressive bitchposting
>reasoned discussion

act like a cunt, get treated like one.

>>55137778
>They just won't go out of their way to pursue any noble goals unless they personally benefit from them.
You don't need to be good to pursue a noble goal. An evil dude can totally regularly throatfuck slaves to death and still crusade against a totalitarian tyranny oppressing a continent.

>>55137885
OK, smart guy. I hope you're enjoying this exchange as much as I am!

>>55137631
>>55137778
>>55137924
And people still think evil PCs are inherently bad

>>55130476
Lower their alignment, and if they're a paladin or maybe a cleric of a Good god, they might suffer some consequences on that front.
Otherwise, it's a valid choice. Executing a prisoner should have its own consequences. They could have interrogated the prisoner and learned the layout of the villain's lair, but now they have to go in blind. Something like that.

>>55135737
The difference is Goblin Slayer is fully conscious that he's a fucking hyperviolent monster, and is to Goblins what Goblins are to us, and is further aware of the cycle of spite and vengeance he fuels

Then he kills them anyway because he really, really fucking hates goblins

But the awareness is important and something murderhobos lack

>>55130476
I fully understand, I just don't agree. Nothing forces you to do a bad thing, so if Hitler Satalin told a guy to "kill a hundred kids or I kill your family", the right choice is clearly to don't do the bad thing. If the villain fulfills his threat then the blood is only on his hands and as heroes they will make him pay for it.

>>55138218
>Lower their alignment, and if they're a paladin or maybe a cleric of a Good god, they might suffer some consequences on that front.
Lower their alignment for killing the guy who forced the party to a standstill, who may have almost killed them and let the BBEG escape justice, which he used to probably kill, enslave and torture a lot of other people?

I mean, the punishment for treachery is capital penalty. The paladin is in his full rights to execute this guy for all the evil he caused. It's unfair to lower his alignment because his action displeased your sensibilities.

>>55136411
>Suicide is worth than killing others
You're a special kind of stupid, ain't you?

>>55136653
>It's never ok to steal from people
Who accepts that? A starving man has a right to steal food, there are other similar cases. Life is more important in the moral sense than capital.

>>55138376
>no, that's cool mister villain, go ahead and kill everyone I love in a horrible fashion, im going to take the moral high ground and hope this random band of strangers I've never met will bring you to justice after you've murdered my family.

YEAH! ULTIMATE FUCKING JUSTICE!

>>55138401
> A starving man has a right to steal food
Not him, but the fact you are hungry suddenly makes it okay for you to steal sustainance from another person? What if that's is this person only bread?

That's actually a very dangerous thought. You can twist it into justify screwing others literally at will. "There is nothing wrong with not paying because this guy has more money than me" or "I can steal that bicycle because that guy has a car anyway".

>>55138401
>A starving man has a right to steal food
That's not actually true.

A starving man has a right to food. A starving man does not actually have the right to STEAL food, but it's often waived if there's no other way to get food.

A starving man is probably going to get smacked with a law hammer if he steals a four course meal from the local supermarket when there's a food bank opposite his house, for example.

>>55138442
Hey, no-one said that you can't do what the bad guys tell you to do, just don't expect leniency afterwards.

>>55138442
>anon makes a strawman and believes he has a point
Of course you would hate him for it, but the point remains that if you help him do bad stuff because your family is threatened, that doesn't change YOU are doing bad stuff and you are still hurting others. Then that's still on your head.

>>55138376
Lowering an alignment is not a punishment. It barely has a mechanical effect at all in 5e.
The paladin is in full right to execute him, but it wasn't an execution. It was attacking a man who had surrendered. An execution would allow the man some last words and have a bit of ceremony. Not just "I make an attack!"
It's not unfair at all. The Paladin is a warrior of God, and the GM plays God.
Continuing the violence so quickly after someone surrenders, without even giving them a chance to do good and aid your cause, shows a rashness and lack of wisdom from the paladin. If it was a Good god, I as a GM would rule that the god was not pleased with the hasty killing of a surrendered man.

>>55138401
> A starving man has a right to steal food
What the fuck is this bullshit

>>55138475
>can twist it into justify screwing others literally at will
The fact that you immediately think of it that way says more about you, honestly.

>>55138491
>>55138502
next time a cop is about to let you off with a warning, demand that he enforces whatever law you broke to the absolute fullest. otherwise you are hypocrites.

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>why doesn't this coerced and desperate victim rationally analyze the situation like I always autistically must do when confronted with dramatic fictional thematic elements of a story about good and evil?
>why should my character consider displaying heroic qualities in this fantasy adventure game when I can just slay him in cold blood instead?

>>55130476
"i can sympathize, but cant let you live"
so he had no choice, life sucks its unfair and all that

but he still did what he did and could still be a hinderance/threat if he thinks the BBEG could still get him

kill him and make a message, we are scarier than the BBEG- dont join his side join ours

>>55138520
>Lowering an alignment is not a punishment. It barely has a mechanical effect at all in 5e.
The fact it has no mechanical effect is irrelevant. You are arbitrary changing an aspect of your character in a way I'm sure the PC doesn't want it, ie punishing him with a forced change.

> The paladin is in full right to execute him, but it wasn't an execution. It was attacking a man who had surrendered. An execution would allow the man some last words and have a bit of ceremony. Not just "I make an attack!"
Execution can be fastened when the situation requires haste, in special when they had plenty of proof beforehand of the character wrongdoings. And in fact he had last words, but they weren't enough to avoid punishment.

>It's not unfair at all. The Paladin is a warrior of God, and the GM plays God.
The GM control the game but he isn't the god the player follows. He can in fact make the god the PC follows act out of character, since this god was probably predetermined before the game.

>Continuing the violence so quickly after someone surrenders, without even giving them a chance to do good and aid your cause, shows a rashness and lack of wisdom from the paladin. If it was a Good god, I as a GM would rule that the god was not pleased with the hasty killing of a surrendered man.
He didn't actually offer to ammend, but even if he did as a paladin he has the right to judge his punishment, which as you say can be service or it can be the common punishment of treachery, which is capital penalty.

If you as a GM did that, frankly I would call you a bad GM. If your 'good' god somehow has a problem with justice he would simply intervine and tell the player to don't do that.

>>55138570
But anon. I dont break laws.

>>55138624
lol, sure thing Timmy

>>55138561
>The fact that you immediately think of it that way says more about you, honestly.
Not really. It says more about human nature.

>>55138570
>next time a cop is about to let you off with a warning, demand that he enforces whatever law you broke to the absolute fullest. otherwise you are hypocrites.
I never begged a cop to never give me a ticket. But then I never received a ticket I didn't deserve it. If I received one that I didn't agree however I would just respectfully contest it.

>>55138576
>why should I bother making an argument when I can just greentext and up the drama to try to make others look stupid?

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>>55130476
I want to point out that it's unknown if what the NPC did to "set the party back" was severe enough to warrant death.
You all are so quick to assume the death penalty for an unknown charge. The PC could just as easily be out of line for overreacting.
I think it says a lot about all of you and what you assume about situations that you have no real way of knowing anything about.

>>55138570
>next time a cop is about to let you off with a warning, demand that he enforces whatever law you broke to the absolute fullest. otherwise you are hypocrites.
I got a parking penalty the other day. Did I go and complain about it?
No, I took it like a champ because I parked in a restricted spot because I needed to drop something off, and got caught for it.

If I fucked up, I wouldn't scream and bawl like a child trying to get out of it. There's something about taking personal responsibility for your actions, you know?

>>55138675
It really does depend. But you're quick to assume that it's NOT worth the death penalty is ok. It's just on the fence without further info, which we won't get. OP's post is designed to sow discord.

>>55137247
Trashcans are a minority group just trying to do their job, yet they're mercilessly beaten. What did they ever do to you?

>>55138675
>You all are so quick to assume the death penalty for an unknown charge. The PC could just as easily be out of line for overreacting.
While possible, the problem is that this option would make this entire discussion irrelevant.

If what he did isn't serious enough to demand the capital punishment, then regardless of his motivation the player would be wrong to kill him. Even if he did it because 'for the lulz', if his crime was 'jaywalking' then it simply doesn't matter.

>>55138632
>mfw that's actually my name
>mfw I can't post my face because he already has my name
Fuck, wut do i do?

>>55138725
Then it brings up a larger metadiscusion issue, people are willing to introduce assumptions, build up chains of argumentation and policy statements based on those assumptions, but then neglect to qualify their conclusions as contingent on their assumptions.

That's what makes most of this board so tiresome to me, so many of these threads depend on people's willingness to bother to reply to pointless hypotheticals, if only to have some excuse to say something. There's nothing really at the heart of these arguments.

>>55138798

If you'll look, though, spin-off discussions start up, about, for example, property rights.
Like that retard earlier that thought a starving man had a right to steal.

>>55135654
>>55135612
>>55135737
god goblin slayer is trash

>lets have a world where even the usual dregs of monsterkind are dangerous
ok, interesting premise
>lets also have the usual RPGlike elements of "adveturers guild" and classes and such
cliche but sure
>lets have this world also have demon armies and poweful heroes who can fight them
sounds like the scale is being fucked but k
>lets have said high level adventurers lose to goblins
and into the trash

instead of either a low fantasy world or using tuckers goblins to make them threatening he gives them H manga villain powers, where people who by all rights should be capable of snorting and wiping out the horde lose to keep the theme going

if the adventurers can keep the demon hordes at bay they can beat goblins, if they cant beat goblins the orcus should have already destroyed the world

>>55138827
Anon, I think you should remember that while Goblin Slayer is based upon an RPG like world, it's not a RPG. Characters don't have a HP meter. If Lucius the King of Light goes sleep at the couch, you go and stab him in the neck he would simply die.

>>55138902
yet it has levels and shit, to the extent where goblins are/were considere newbie fodder

and even assuming that, the kind of party that can kill a balor will 100% be capable of dealing with some midgets with crude weapons- all this nonsense about not wearing helmets and shit shouldnt be a thing then, since if it was always a lethal mistake the experienced would learn

basically, its a world where everyone actes like RPG mechanics are in place yet that is constantly shown to not be the case

>>55138936
Yes, but levels indicate ability and not necessary endurance. Like we have elite soldiers, soldiers and grunts. Someone more experiment is usually stronger and performs better, but they aren't much more durable than their race under natural conditions. A commando who is trained to kill terrorists can still die by a random kid with a cheap knife if taken by surprise.

And yes anon, but as you read on the manga experienced adventures usually don't take on goblins. They pick quests that provide more gold and challenge. And those few exceptions were, funnily just like yourself, underestimating them. Pride usually goes before a fall after all.

If you want a quick example, have you played Age of Wonders 2 or 3, or any game with a fatigue or stealth mechanic? You can have a higher level unit (like a tier 4) and still be slaughtered by tiers 1, because even through you are strong you still suffer fatigue. Or die because the enemy got a cheap shot.

>no one even asks what the guy did to set the party back
>nothing but edgy basement dwellers spouting "JUSTICE" and yelling for summary execution.
>literally just shitty players and even shittier people trying to explain that they know what justice is and why their murderhobo is above the law.

these are the same people who will murder innocent guards escaping from prison after they get thrown in for some dumb fucking crime, and claim that they had to in order to save the world, in the same campaign as this.

I don't know what op expected

>>55139137
>If you want a quick example, have you played Age of Wonders 2 or 3, or any game with a fatigue or stealth mechanic?
no

so ill counter with a comparison of my own

even high level characters in dark souls can die to low level enemies if they make too many mistakes and get CC'd and whatnot. however- if a player is high level (finishing the game/defeated many bosses) chances are he is good enough not to do those mistakes since if he was he wouldnt get that far.

the kind of high level adventurers who can fight demons would have to be smart and not make dumb mistakes, or they wouldnt be fighting demons- adventuring is a "survival of the fittest" kind of thing afterall

>>55139250
>even high level characters in dark souls can die to low level enemies if they make too many mistakes and get CC'd and whatnot. however- if a player is high level (finishing the game/defeated many bosses) chances are he is good enough not to do those mistakes since if he was he wouldnt get that far.
>the kind of high level adventurers who can fight demons would have to be smart and not make dumb mistakes, or they wouldnt be fighting demons- adventuring is a "survival of the fittest" kind of thing afterall
the tl;dr thing about it is "oh these folks only faced demons so haven't faced off vs goblins and are unused to swarm tactics".

Still shitty grimderp manga though.

>>55139308
>oh these folks only faced demons so haven't faced off vs goblins and are unused to swarm tactics
but demons also use swarm tactics

hell thats what gate does- summons demons to swarm you

>>55130541
Literally this. It's a game, we are all waiting for NPCs to give us a reason to murder them.

>>55139333
You know, then I have no idea. Never read the fucking thing other than half of the first chapter.

>>55139250
>however- if a player is high level (finishing the game/defeated many bosses) chances are he is good enough not to do those mistakes since if he was he wouldnt get that far.
Yes, but that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. Even higher levelled players make a sidestep and get shot into a pit.

Now consider Dark Souls but you can only die once. Then you will see how different things are.

>>55139530
No-one would make it up to high levels.

Seath makes the game effectively unwinnable.

>>55139494
>Man with half the facts in heated debate with man without facts

>>55139530
>>Now consider Dark Souls but you can only die once
yet some madmen do manage these runs, and that fact should tell you how good they are- and how fucked whatever they are fighting is

basically, if you can only die once- and you are high level- you should be *that* good to the extent that you dont make stupid mistakes

>>55139556
Just as planned.

>>55139597
You are missing the point. The point isn't that they aren't good, the point is that no matter how good you are you can still make mistakes. And these mistakes can still end killing you.

The manga simply doesn't show those who are successful, because the point is to show that goblins aren't that innofensive if you overestimate them or get careless because 'lolgoblins'.

>>55139597
>some madmen
And what about the failed runs. You can't say they don't exist

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>>55135704
I have no idea why I did this.

>>55139530
>Now consider Dark Souls but you can only die once. Then you will see how different things are.
I legit want a mod for the game that enforces this.

>>55139681
except its not even stupid mistakes/luck- its basic rookie shit like wearing helmets and not turning your back to an enemy

>>55139697
they are all those who never make it to being a high level adventurer

>>55135661
Hahahahaha

>>55139708
With the exception for Seath, of course.

But I think a lifering counts for it.

>>55139742
>except its not even stupid mistakes/luck- its basic rookie shit like wearing helmets and not turning your back to an enemy
Yes anon, because of the "showing face" looks cool. Which is realistic, take Dark Souls: how many people don't go helmetless for looks and not because they want a lower load?

You should also remember that those knights weren't like gold level, they thought that having plate armor already put them above the par.

>>55139835
>ow many people don't go helmetless for looks and not because they want a lower load?
if going helmet-less was such a serious downside? not many- it just so happens that armor is for shitters who get hit


>You should also remember that those knights weren't like gold level
true, but they still had training and shit, how many soldiers go into battle not knowing what shields are? or that helmets are useful?

>>55135106
This guy gets it. Law of nature man. It's terrible that you were forced to do all these things, but at the end of the day you still did them. The only way to avoid it would to have not lived a life where you would have had the ability to do it. That's not fair it's just the way it is.
Now you will be sentenced to punishment like all criminals and ne'er-do-wells.

>>55139891
>if going helmet-less was such a serious downside? not many- it just so happens that armor is for shitters who get hit
Yes, the words of someone before getting stunlocked. :^)

Anyway, it's not just Dark Souls. Literally a lot of games people keep the helmet spot open, literally putting themselves into disadvantage because looks. Ego is a funny thing.

>true, but they still had training and shit, how many soldiers go into battle not knowing what shields are?
Probably the same warriors who think just a sword is enough.

Take Dark Souls, using a shield is very important. But some people doesn't because using a ultraweapon (not the zwei, which is awesome and can easily be used with a shield) without a metal on your back looks cool.

It isn't that they had bad training. They simply were prideful (I want to look cool) and disdained (bah, I don't need a shield to kill some low levels creeps) and paid for it. Because (holy crap! they actually know tactics?)

It's actually a plot point that goblins have been getting better at ambushing. Because as Goblin Slayer says whenever a goblin survives he learns from it.

>>55134801
Life isn't fair.
>Aid evil and stave off destruction for a few days. Family still fed to dogs after death.
>Aid good and stave off destruction for a month but your family is murdered and tortured.
True LoaP.

>>55130476
I dunno, the players in the GURPS game I've been in seem to be taking a perverse pride in not having directly killed more than one person.

>>55135103
Okay I've solved the dilemma. Some people in here have been raised to see violence as unnecessary in most situations.
Personally I think "necessary" has been far too stressed in today's society. I think it's time to bring back "effective" and "prudent". Lot's of things aren't strictly "necessary".

>>55140047
except noone does fashion souls irl

the last people to do that to my knowledge were the aztecs, and they got fucked rather easily

>>55140547
>except noone does fashion souls irl
yes, because in rl there aren't goblins, ogres, magical armors and whatever. But people actually do lots of life threatening and stupid stuff in rl.

>>55140608
And those people don't fucking get to high levels by killing fucking murderous demons.

>>55130476
>GM offers a situation with 2 apparent solutions
>gets butthurt when one of them gets chosen over the other
Classic.