So, /tg/, how do we fix the cancer that's killing the setting?

Forget about the Horus Heresy and let primarchs become promotional disply pieces that don't get used in game.

unless you were thinking about removing space marines in which case fuck you, find another setting, or make your own.

>>55119160
destroy macragge. Let Ultramar fester as Nurgles garden made manifest. bring back the Lion, Wolf and Fist.

We make you stop posting

>>55119203
>>55119200
>remove space marines
>the setting automatically gets better
Really makes me think

>>55119218
Don't remove them, just stop the mary sue plot armour for the blue boys

>>55119218
>remove space marines
>the setting automatically dies
FTFY

I don't think the trick is removing space marines but rather drifting the focus away from them. I think having space marines makes the setting what it is. Besides, you could always find some other space-christian setting to forfill your hate-boner for marines.

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>>55119203
>bring back the Lion, Wolf and Fist.

>>55119203
>and Fist.
That's kind of a crap moniker if I'm honest - was he ever called "the imperial fist" in-universe?

I know that's how one of his legion's fortresses (and it's grip on the planet) were described as that, but was Dorn himself?

I mean, for him we've got "The Praetorian" as a canon nickname, maybe he can hold the Segmentum Solar (to emphasise the "defender of Terra" thing) against Chaos and the Nids and shit

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>>55119160
Retcon absurd giant Primarchs and dick waving contests they emdoby. Turn Emperor into regular human with incredible psyker ability who created space marines to compensate his insecurities over humanity tragic past.

Finally give each xeno race its own different factions with different goals. Even Tyranids can have parasitic fleets which adapted to leeching from bigger fleets as their survival strategy. Or expand genestealer lore as if they were product of specific fleet with its unique evolution which focused on assimilating other races and was partfially or wholly consumed and integrated in bigger meaner fleets during Tyranid inner evolutionary wars. Introduce more Tyranid affilated races like Zoats. Eldar and Tau can have as many factions as Imperium.

Maybe show us one of the larger human territories outside Imperial control.

And of course tone down Chaos nonsense.


Alternatively try to unsuccessfully return 40k to its old goofy satirical self.

>>55119160
Setting is fine, you'll live.

>>55119737
>Even Tyranids can have parasitic fleets which adapted to leeching from bigger fleets as their survival strategy.
They already do that. Hive fleets feed off each other anyway. And one is even actively focused on hunting other hive fleets.

>>55119834
Parasitism means different kind of relations. Usually fleets fight to death and consume the defeated fleet with all its biomass and potential genetic information.

>>55119778
The setting has never been so shitty

>>55119737
>Retcon absurd giant Primarchs and dick waving contests they emdoby.
What? The HH is probably one of the best parts of the fluff.
>emdoby
>Finally give each xeno race its own different factions with different goals.
Again what? Every faction has different factions within it. Theres dozens of Imperial factions, Chaos has different alignments, legions, types of daemon, Eldar have numerous craftworlds, Crons have different dynasties. The list goes on.
>Maybe show us one of the larger human territories outside Imperial control.
There's enough human factions as it is, and renegade people almost always fall to Chaos.
>And of course tone down Chaos nonsense.
What did he mean by this.

>>55119737
This guy gets it

>>55119902
>The HH is probably one of the best parts of the fluff.
This.

This here.

This is what's choking the life out of the setting.

>>55119834
Neat. I hope they really start pushing that in the fluff

>>55119902
>The HH is probably one of the best parts of the fluff
"Marines vs Marines, the game"

>>55119948
And? Do you have any criticism of the story or do you just hate it because
>muh reens are stupid

>>55119902
>What did he mean by this
Chaos is eternal, timeless, destined to consume the galaxy no matter what. They are responsible, directly or indirectly, for basically every event, and they can and will corrupt basically anything that steps out of line with imperial doctrine. There are only four chaos gods, and they act in very predictable ways. They have no good side or benefits to worship. You just get tricked into getting mad and bang, Corn has your soul forever now.

It's become a boring race of one note Mary sues who constantly lose but not really guys we had this secret secondary objective all along which means we win .
They're the equivalent of the kid on the playground who absolutely won't take a loss and goes on about his secret doubleplus infinity force field or whatever when somebody shoots him

>>55120009
>destined to consume the galaxy no matter what.
So were the Tyranids. Also the Chaos gods manufactured the HH specifically because the Emperor was on track to destroy them, so no.

>They are responsible, directly or indirectly, for basically every event
They are the main antagonist of the setting. Of course in the battle of Chaos v Imperium, Chaos will be up to shit. Plenty of factions have almost no relations with chaos whatsoever.

Tau don't fuck around with Chaos.
Dark Eldar just ignore the Chaos god they created.
Necrons are totally immune.
Nids, same thing.
How can you say it's omnipresent when basically all the xenos have a tangental relationship at best with chaos.

>They have no good side or benefits to worship.
Power. Chaos champions are given huge power to wield though dark magic, with the eventual reward of immortality through ascension to daemonhood. In fact the possiblity of becoming a daemon prince is far beyond anything the other factions have in terms of reward.

>>55119160
I've been wanting to get into 40K for awhile now, but only know the basic fluff. Can someone give me a rundown on what the "cancer" is? Are we talking narrative shitiness or something with the game itself?

>>55120164
GW has recently tried to advance the plot with mixed results. For the longest time there was basically a stalemate between Chaos and the Imperium and Xenos.

>>55120164
Marines have more HQs than other factions have total units

>>55120164
people are just whinging about the new elements they don't like

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>>55119902
>Eldar have numerous craftworlds
They are just craftworlds with thier unique hats. One is craftworld of bikers, other is craftworld of psykers, etc. Even larger hive planets essential for Imperium survival like Armaggeddon deserve to have dozen different factions. Given how crucial are major craftworld for Eldar survival as a race, it's unforgivable. Each of the major craftworld could have its own factions, different Paths confronting each other.

Another thing lacking about Eldar lore is their connections with minor races and trade. Craftworld were created by survivalist and traders, they are supposed to have millenia long connections and cultural ties with other races. Not only that, Eldar webway grants them ability to travel outside Imperial reach limited by Astronomicon. In the human worlds outside the Imperium Eldar could be the major trading partner. It's not all, Eldar could have access to the worlds cut out by warpstorms or homeplanets of the races which Imperium decided to ignore or postpone extermination. It's really weird that their possible role as traders who connect different world and races smothered by the blanket of Imperial control is not expanded at all. Alternatively they could help said minor or non-Imperial human planets to hamper Imperium expansion. Their role as traders and diplomats isn't shown at all.

Dark Eldar are barebones too. Given that Dark Eldar can't use psychic powers their technology should be vastly different from their Craftworld cousins. Imagine that every member of your race has remote control device in his head (Eldar innate psychic powers), unsurprisingly all their technology, mundane or otherwise, would be designed around this fact. Now Dark Eldar can't change batteries in their devices or else big bad trans will eat their souls. It means that Dark Eldar simply couldn't retain their previous technology and wealth and would probably scavenge alien technology, even DAoT human tech for good bits.

>>55119160
I'm super happy Bobby G and the Boys in Blue are taking it to Chaos now. I've never been happier. The only way I could be happier is if Sanic, Doggo, Punch McCrunch, and Leomon all came back too, and they all teamed up to bring down the remaining traitors together, unified under one banner to fulfill their father's dream, without the arrogance and jealousy that tore them apart ten thousand years ago, and then I could buy some nice fucking figures of them for sub $100 to put on my shelf. All of that, and I would be in an ideal world

>>55120147
>So were the Tyranids.

No. That's dumb. That was never stated.

>HH specifically because the Emperor was on track to destroy them, so no.

Nope, he was going to cut off humanity from Chaos and prevent Chaos from destroying the galaxy by using mankind as its means. The Webway project was the Emperor way to achieve this. Once the Chaos Gods destroyed the Webway they lost all their interest in the HH and allowed Horus to lose.

> Plenty of factions have almost no relations with chaos whatsoever.

All factions are counted to Chaos in some way or another/

>Tau don't fuck around with Chaos.

Farsight, his daemon sword, and the prophecies about him falling to the power of Chaos. The Ethereals knowing about Chaos and hiding the truth about it. Their race had a hidden faction that designed them to be less of a bait for Chaos but clearly nowadays that's failing as Chaos is coming for the Tau in force.

>inb4 its not a daemon sword

Phil Kelly novel showed that there is an evil entity residing inside the sword.

>Dark Eldar just ignore the Chaos god they created.

No, they don't. They hunt Chaos dudes and have made neutral and even friendly relations with them.

>Necrons are totally immune.

No, they are. They can be corrupted and possessed. Like what happened recently with Lucius corrupting and possessing a Necron assassin.

>Nids, same thing.

Them too are not immune. Tyranids have been corrupted and made to serve Chaos as beasts of burden or war-spawn

Dude, you are a fucking racist against Chaos. How can you justify this amount of ignorance about a faction of people? Only racists are that ignorant.

>>55120908
Proof for the corrupted Necrons.

>919.M41 THE DAEMON’S TOMB

>The Daemon Prince Shukketh Voidmaw infects the tomb world of Vorketh with the taint of Chaos. Vorketh’s regent awakens to find his crypts transformed, and his legions already locked in battle.

>The Eternal Duellist

>Lucius the Eternal leads a motley warband across the galaxy on the trail of the deadliest opponents his network of admiring torture-cultists can locate for him. He intends to hunt down the best melee fighters in the galaxy and beat them in one-on-one combat or die in the attempt. Over the course of several centuries he defeats the Dark Eldar Archon Vraesque in cursed Shaa-dom, the Emperor’s Champion of the Black Templars at Veilfate, and the Ork Warboss Two-klaws at Octarius Sigma.

>Eventually, on a nameless moon near Damnos, Lucius is cut down by the shape-shifting Necron duellist known only as the Phasing Sword. Not even the Necron’s body of living metal can prevent the Slaaneshi champion’s strange possession-curse from taking hold, however, for it takes a cold pride in its victory, and that is the seed of its undoing. Lucius is reborn inside his killer within days, the xenos warrior’s body drizzling away to reveal the twisted swordsman, as arrogant and maniacal as ever.

Only idiots say that "X" is immune to Chaos. NOZING is immune to Chaos and that's the point. Chaos is entropy and in the material realm entropy is king. There are thing that can resist entropy more than others but in the end entropy is going to win.

>>55120908
Carnac, do you understand that Chaos is so bland and boring that many people want this?
>tone down Chaos nonsense
You are just proving that point by showing how according to GW writers everything must be tied to the borefest which is Chaos.

>>55121060
Follow the chain post, idoita. He was relaying faulty information about Chaos and I corrected him. I don't care about your shitty opinion about Chaos, I care that the discourse be accurate to the lore so you people can have an informed discussion.

>>55121102
I don't care about your opinion either, Carnac. You must be the only person besides ADB enjoying this crappy lore.

>>55121197
I stated no opinion. Only factoids from the lore. Stop replying to me. You're wasting both of our times, you (You)whore.

>>55121230
Whatever you say

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>>55121060
>>55121102
>>55121197
>>55121230
>>55121261

>>55121547
Shit, man. Better lay off the Arnold presses, you've got 'UGE shoulders.

>>55121547
Beep boop get of my lawn

>>55119994
I think they stifle creativity and the push for primarines has set us back a good 5 years as far as development is concerned.

Eventually they will phase out OG marines and replace it with new stuff but until then every other faction in this game is going to go without.

I get that people like marines, but we literally have a setting just for marines in FW. I want some desparate attention to model lines approaching several decades old.

>>55119276
Yeah, the issue isn't that space marines exist, it's that they fill (or are intended to fill) basically every gameplay and thematic niche instead of just being the elite heavy hitters of the imperial Army. If they'd kept them to a fairly small selection of highly specialised units that only excelled in small battles or as the strike element of a larger guard force (how they are repeatedly portrayed in early fluff) rather than being jack of all trades apparently happy to grind their numbers down in any and all fights going, there may have been a bit more chance of other factions maintaining a foothold. Dropping the vicious psycho space thug image in favor of noble demi gods hadn't helped either.

>>55121688
>the issue isn't that space marines exist, it's that they fill (or are intended to fill) basically every gameplay and thematic niche instead of just being the elite heavy hitters of the imperial Army
So much this

>>55120147
>In fact the possiblity of becoming a daemon prince is far beyond anything the other factions have in terms of reward.

Necrons will become C'tan eventually or laugh at the heat death of the universe. Even Chaos can't exist without mortals.

>>55119902
>What? The HH is probably one of the best parts of the fluff.

Good, keep it in the fucking HH then. The glory days are gone, that's the point. The universe is a bleak and futile struggle against the impending doom. There are no more legends, heroes flicker and die without notice. No goodies and baddies, no grand sweeping narratives.

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>>55120946
Wow, that plot is really dumb. They've really gone far from the "Emotionless Robot Killers" the Necrons used to be.

Shame since they're my favourite race.

>>55120946
>Chaos is entropy and in the material realm entropy is king.

Actually Chaos is the opposite of entropy, they are self-motivating and the random possiblity to resist entropy.

Also, Lucius took the body. The Necron probably respawned in a new one after it's living metal was compromised.

check and mate. Also the excerpt conflicts with all other sources. Necrons don't have emotions (at least real ones) they are incapable of feeling pride because true emotion requires a soul.

You are trying to argue monism is a deulist universe

>chaos is muh omnipotent entropy and lovercraftian
Hey, remember when Necrons where the Lovercraftian horror of the universe while Chaos was very much the product of sentient life's subconsciousness and they were the opposite of Lovercraftian in that they were extremely invested into enslaving humanity since we're the only species that managed to survive their undermining without becoming a complete shadow and how the whole conflict with Chaos was also a metaphor about how the nobility and higher aspirations of man fight against his baser nature and the question is can mankind overcome it's dark impulses and desires to stand in the light? Cause that shit was awesome.
Fuck ADB and his cronies.

>>55121683
^^this^^

Keep 30k in 30k this is suppose to be its own setting.

> Erase this guilliman / Primaris nonsense, retcon the new marines to a new armour type in truscale
> Erase about 70% of the current marine range, specifically all the goofy shit (thunder wolves, sanguinary guard, the Death wing with maces and dresses, the dreadknight) and anything that allows them to fulfill the role that other imperial forces are supposed to occupy (air support, heavy armour)
> Develop more background on diverse imperial factions and xenos, not just the TM'd races with existing plastic kits
>Reintroduce the grey to the morality of all factions, employ a little more satire, (subtle) parody and fun into the concepts and background.

>>55120908
Farsights sword is a crone blade, not a daemon sword.

>Tyranids have been corrupted and made to serve Chaos as beasts of burden or war-spawn
Oh boy, can't wait for a source for this

>>55121902
It still is, don't let the wank confuse you, Chaos is only a threat to the Eldar and humans in pretty much the whole of the fiction's overarching story.

Pylons are still plot critical, Nulls are still a thing, bullets still kill demons, the waagh is immune to fuckery, the shadow of the warp still fucks psykers, demons still can't manifest without mortals and Abadabadoo is still in charge of the whole of the traitors.

The galaxy is actually pretty safe once the human problem starts getting fixed.

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>>55121858
>Actually Chaos is the opposite of entropy

Nah, the developer of Chaos said its cosmic entropy.


>Also, Lucius took the body. The Necron probably respawned in a new one after it's living metal was compromised.

Nope, doesn't work like that. Newcron lords have been permantely destroyed before when they failed to phase out due to internal damage to his phasor. For example when Captain Cato targetted the area where the Necron phase device was located with a sword thrust which resulted in a Necron Lord dying forever. Lucius corrupted the Necron from within meaning his phasing device was also corrupted alongside everything else.

> Necrons don't have emotions (at least real ones) they are incapable of feeling pride because true emotion requires a soul.

False. Newcrons have emotions. Even the stunted warriors. Psykers can see a faint spoor of emotion radiating from the Necrons. The Newcron noblity and higher castes are notorious for being extremely prideful creatures.

Like I said, racism.

>>55121850
Personally, I blame Tyranidfags. They ruin everything.

>>55121731
>Even Chaos can't exist without mortals.

Wrong, the Warp does not acknowledge time and Chaos doesn't require mortals to exist.

>>55121574
Don't need a soul to get swole

>>55121850
Well there are dynasties that are still driven by a cold hatred of all life. I happen to like my goofy skeletor-ass saturday morning cartoon Overlord.
>"Foolish Farseer, at last we meet again for the first time..."


So what are our Grandpa robots up to anyways? It seems like we're taking a back seat this edition.

And by "backseat" I mean we're in the trunk with the blueberries.

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>>55122052
>the developer of Chaos
Is this like official position within GW?

>>55121996
>Farsights sword is a crone blade, not a daemon sword.

Crone Swords, as far as I know, are not usually found in Chaos temples and they do not contain malefic entities.

>Oh boy, can't wait for a source for this

"Storm of Iron". Iron Warrior infect a Hiveship with the Destroyer virus and then drag it to the Eye to complete its corruption. It was then used as a Chaos titan transport.

"Daemon World". The dominating Slaaneshi faction of the daemon world has Tyranid slaves working in their bone mines. Used as beasts of burden, they are forced to use their crusher claws to dig and breaking the planets bone.

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>Genestealer cults land on a planet, impregnate someone
> hive world is now doomed, its a matter of time before a full tryanid fleet follows the psychic signal to food
>no one can leave the planet to warn anyone due to the imperium not having freedom of movement
> no one is warned, nids kill everyone, imperium exterminatus planet

>orcs land on a planet
>as soon as orcs land they begin to make spores, planet is now infected and there will never not be orcs
> no one was warned, everyone dies, best solution to re-build is exerminatus


> planet is about to fall to chaos
> constant meatgrinder of imperial guard troops
> not an interesting conflict, however, because chaos only has to win once to corrupt the planet. humans just fighting waves in fortifications. Its like this setting doesn't know how to write that isn't a last stand!
>chaos wins one battle, now exterminatus is the best solution

>invent new anti-nid/ork/chaos weapon so that the imperium doesn't have to exerminatus every planet
> get arrested and excecuted for heresy, chest cut open to look for chaos mutations

This is my problem with 40k. The actions of the imperium, as well as the inevitable win-conditions of the enemies they fight means that there is literally no where for the story to go. For tabletop you have to hand-waive exceptions to imperial BS to get anywhere, and even then your inquisitor is going to go insane, your guardsman is going to die, or we had to write in special exceptions for your snowflake rouge traders.

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. I guess this also excludes plot advancement.
if you take it as satire, however, the memes are pretty damn funny

>>55122010
Yea, but the whole nuance of Chaos' rivalry (because that's exactly what it was) is gone. Now it's just ''muh omnipotent eternal satans play games'' as opposed to ''we need to finish what we started and grind these assholes down along with the rest before they evolve enough to destroy us''. Also, Horus Heresy was a HUGE deal for Chaos, because they took out the only being more powerful then them, stopped his plan to cut off their influence, got an insane amount of power and elite followers and almost enslaved humanity in the process. They were fucking scared of Big E, calling him Anathema, having to steal his sons while he's away (because the wards he placed where so powerful they couldn't kill them) and generally just staying out of his way and working together to undermine him extremely subtly. Now they're making it out like he was just a nuisance, HH was just a game, and what they did to the character of The Emperor, i'm not even gonna discuss.
>guy gives everything he has and is to give humanity a chance with no personal gain
>hurr, surely he's an evil tyrant
Fuck that abused pussy ''writer''.

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>>55122052
>>55122083
>>55122052
Is there any re-writes where Necrons still actually seem like an unstoppable threat which I can pretend is canon? I'm really starting to stop caring about GW canon.

Tbh I think they need to kill off The Silent King and all this go back to biological bodies bullshit. Get a Dynasty that finally reigns in all the others to start a major purging of the galaxy.

How to spot Carnac, beyond the obvious
>is a fucking retard
>is extremely smug about it

>>55122125
>storm of iron
>daemon world
Welp, I know what I'm doing for the day

>>55122182
I just automatically assume he's present whenever a thread gets derailed with autistic slap fights about chaos.

>it's anons who only got into 40k in 2010 at best start crying

>>55122010
>LET ME IGNORE THE FLUFF. IT"S NOT LIKE THE FLUFF WILL PROGRESS ACCORDING TO WHATS WRITTEN

Idiot.

Chaos is a threat to everything that exists within the galaxy. Humanity is the only force holding it back for dissolving the galaxy into warp soup.

>demons still can't manifest without mortals

What do you call all those warpstorms or Warp incursions where no mortal exist?

The racism is real.

>>55122171
No, you wanted personality and you got it at the expense of everything else. You made your tomb and now lay in it.

To have a personality means you are prey to Chaos.

>>55119737
Except when GW does do the goofy satirical self people start screeching it's 'retarded'. Like that AoS Nurgle unit.

>>55122229
Lol, as if this has never been a problem before

>>55122268
>Like that AoS Nurgle unit
I prefer to remain ignorant. Everything Age of Smegma shats out is retarded and cringy

>>55122412
Except it's coming to 40k, so tough shit. Hating a thing that's more successful than WHFB ever was isn't going to go away because you call it EPIC NAMES on a Burmese Etch-a-Sketch animation board. The fact you're 'ignorant' proves you don't even go to 40k threads, or /tg/. It was everywhere when announced.

>>55122388
He's right, it's basically people who've got into this setting in 2010, if not in 2016 due to LE EPIC EMPEROR TRUMP memes are crying a thing isn't the way they want it to be.

>>55122111
>implying the guy had any idea of the true meaning of entropy besides 'baaaah random shit ueeeeh'

>>55122182
You forgot something else
>99% correct about EVERYTHING

>>55122154
>In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. I guess this also excludes plot advancement
Absolutely 100%. You want that spoonfed Saturday morning cartoon shit, fuck off to L5R or, better yet, get a subscription to a bunch of marvel comics and then fucking hang yourself. You are the cancer OP is talking about. 'Durr, can't do imagination, tell me what to think, GW. Also tell me what action figures to play with'.
Fucking cunt.

>>55122445
>that's more successful than WHFB ever was
>
>The fact you're 'ignorant' proves you don't even go to 40k threads, or /tg/. It was everywhere when announced.
Maybe I have been busy? Life doesn't revolve around your plastic figures

>>55122446
>Entropy is the collapse of all systems of order
>Order is even a byproduct entropy
>Chaos seeks to destroy all systems of order in all its forms. Physical and metaphysical. Even seeks to destroy itself
>"Order" factions ultimate draw their power Chaos and their opposition to Chaos empowers it

He got it right.

>>55122445
2k10 was 7 years ago grandpa, every 40k player isn't a 40 something neckbeard crying about 'muh kids these days'

>>55122268
>Like that AoS Nurgle unit.
I haven't been looking for AoS updates. What was it?

>>55122268
> not understanding the difference between subtle parody and tongue in cheek and going full retard with goofy looking cad sculpt.
Also, If you steadily churn out grimdark, Po-faced grimdark nonsense for decades and then shit out a ham fisted attempt at being 'a bit crazy' with a lazy cad turd, you're not going to get the best response.

>>55122445
>He's right, it's basically people who've got into this setting in 2010, if not in 2016 due to LE EPIC EMPEROR TRUMP memes are crying a thing isn't the way they want it to be.
I don't get your point

>>55122512
Tfw entropy meaning anything outside of physics is a meme but people start buying it

>>55122604
But anon entropy sounds so cool and sophisticated when you apply it to random shit

>>55122445
>Hating a thing that's more successful than WHFB ever was isn't going to go away

>Thing A sells more than Thing B
>Thing A must be better! Hurr-durr!
You must be a special kind of normie retard to believe that

>>55122171
The only victory condition we really have is if all the remaining tombs woke up and united, they'd be unstoppable but we all know that ain't happening.

>>55122265
You made me namefag just so I can do this.

>>55122453
>people mostly saying they hate new lore and discussing the old one
>autist screeching ''IT BE LIEK DIS'' in every thread
Nah, just a retard.

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>>55122826
Anon, please, Necrons have the scariest and most dangerous winning condition of anyone in the setting.

>>55122852
Wrong.

The anons I am replaying to weren't saying that "Chaos should be X". They were saying that that "people saying that Chaos should be X are wrong and that in the fluff Chaos is actually Y". I disagreed and rightfully told those anons that Chaos is not Y. It's FUCKING ZEEED.

>>55122839
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06OzHwkV3bA

>>55122889
Is that a necron win condition or a c'tan win condition?

>>55122947
You do realise you just agreed with and illustrated the point you were trying to refute right? I'm mean, I know you're mentally deficient, but even you have to be getting embarrassed by now.

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>>55123033
>reminding me those two are now different things
HOW DO YOU WANT YOUR SETTING SENPAI

>>55120946
>Literally nothing about corrupting Necrons, just destroying them
>Carnac claims it's about corrupting Necrons

>>55122889
The Void Dragon was sharded and the Dragon of Mars is just a shard of it.

>912.M41 THE GOD SHADOW
>A shard of the Void Dragon escapes from its imprisonment, laying waste to the Arotepk Dynasty in its mindless rage. Though only a faint shadow of a true C’tan, the Void Dragon gorges itself on a dozen worlds, expending its fury upon the living before the Arotepk Crypteks can finally force it back into its cage.

C'tan shards are roughly and depending on size range from Greater Daemon to exalted Greater Daemon power levels.

>>55122947
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVoNAqGbi74
Superior video

>>55123070
>Slaanesh sensed the cold pride in the Necron and had Lucius possess the Necrons body and take it over transforming it into a new him.

>>55123062
You do realise that you are incapable of reading English? He is a moron and so is you. I did not once did I response to any saying that Chaos should be changed to this or that. I only responded to the anons that are arguing with them.

Seriously, like I said. Racism. It clouds the mind and makes you dumb.

>>55123122
respond*

>>55123122
>Lucius pops out of a Necron body thanks to a ooga booga magic
>Body is explicitly melted in the process
>Obviously that means the Necron inside was corrupted
Carnac everyone.

>>55121731
Not anymore. Chaos is apparently completely divorced from needing mortals for anything, and could totally exist still in a barren lifeless galaxy. Hypothetically according to nuChaos lore, even if the galaxy had been sterilized and made devoid of any life sentient or no prior to any event, then all of the Chaos gods would still be fine and the same as they are now. If you went back and prevented the creation of the Eldar, Slaanesh would still exist.

>>55119160
It's terminal. The novelty of 8th will wear off sooner than later. Best to go ahead and abandon ship while you can still sell your minis for some actual money.

>>55123169
You don't know how Lucius's transforming works? He slowly takes over the mind and body of the victim. The body turns into a shell from which Lucius emerges with power armour, sword, and all midst the Gorey remains of the victim. The victim's face is relocated to the chest area.

Now change all of that into Living Metal and you got your Necron possession. Please be less of a retard.

>>55119160
Send everything with pauldrons to their pocket dimension aka /hhg/vwhere they can wank over each other for eternity and have the actual interesting factions have their endless war.

>>55123194
>nuChaos

It's actually old. The Eldar 2nd codex says that ideas that create gods and daemons are immortal once they enter the warp. That's due to a simple fact, the Warp doesn't acknowledge linear time. Cause and effect doesn't exist. There is no after or before in the Warp. There is only now. To the Warp, everything has already happened and none of it has happened at the same time.

>>55123075
The shards are seeking each other out to merge.

>>55123214
But Necrons don't have souls...or warp presence, or emotions as living beings define them...what retard wrote that crap?

>>55123285
For 60 million years. I have no faith in them managing it in the next few centuries which according to GW is how long this war against Chaos will last.

>>55119160
Have an imperial civil war because of the heresy that is primaris marines. I find it hard to believe that all the chapters are totally alright with what Girlyman claims daddy said. An event similar to the 30 years war. Could be cool

>>55123169
Just buy a ring and propose already.

>>55123212
You think no heavy amount of chemo can save it?

>>55123331
Do you really think GW cares? That fluff was made to prevent manlet marines players from bursting in episodes of tard rage. GW literally doesn't care, they only wanted new marines to continue milking the dead cow

>>55123214
Literally no soul left to corrupt or take you cretin.

>>55123306
I know, right? I was puzzled by it but then I remember this is Newcron lore so it gives the writers the license to go full retard in whatever way they wish.

Anyways, in the Damnos novel, it was shown that there a Newcrons produce faint traces of emotion that psykers can see. Also in the Harlequin painting guide, the "Dreaming Shadow" Shadowseers are trained to use their psychic powers to read the minds of the Necrons nobles in order to see into what scares and then create warp illusions to cause panic and fear in the Necrons.

If psykers can do it, then a Chaos Gods can.

>>55123343
You can prop up it's rotting corpse, not unlike the Emperor, but 40K will never be what it was to the people that got into the hobby during the late90s/early 2000s boom. The game has changed, and those people have changed. Instead, GW will have to keep focusing on bringing in new players. Much like Magic, the ultimate problem is retention. GW has struggled with retention, especially due to those 'lean years' - and it will probably only get worse.

>>55123376
Machines, planets, suns, etc have no souls. They get corrupted and possessed all the same.

>>55121688

One of the things Imperial Armor does right a lot of the time. They give the Guard a larger focus (partly because they sell a good deal of Guard stuff) and focus fights on the larger campaigns, where Space Marines are sometimes just a part.

Hell, my favorite story so far is in the Horus Heresy; the Liberation of Numinal, which pits the Solar Auxilia and allied Knights against the Taghmata of Cyclothrane and their allies Knights. Pretty sure the Astartes only get a passing mention there: a captured Strike Cruiser does a strafing run, three mismatched marines on Javelin bikes who swoop into the final fight, and the first identified Blackshield who solos a facility's worth of Tech-Priests, Taghmata, and Servitors.

>>55123376
He didn't mention a soul, did he? He said body and mind. Remember that souls are not tied to the conscious mind in this setting.

>>55123251
>Immortal
Unless you're facing Calgar in which case you're just fucking dead.

>>55123394
Also forgot something....

In the HH series we have Erebus corrupted and binding a daemon into the Black Spear who was some super pariah assassin. Another example from the HH is a Sister of Silence who used sorcery to create a soul for herself.

It's stupid to thing that Chaos won't find away around thing.

>>55123439
Chaos are just a stupid race in general.

>"You can't do this because this is how this works"
>"I'M CHAOS! I DO WHAT I LIKE! FUCK LOGIC"

>>55123417
>partly because they sell a good deal of Guard stuff
They used to, sadly. Now it's marines vs resin marines all the same

>>55119160
Fuck this shitty lore, give us good writters

>>55119160
Remove Chaos entirely. Make this a hard Sci-Fi setting because making it fantasy IN SPAAAACE just leads to overly retarded parallels.

Keep humanity as overly rigid and regimented society due to fear of infiltrating xenos.
Make the HH not about "space hell infected my sons!" and about the nature of "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".
Eldar/DE fragmented due to internal strife, and are way more powerful. They still have psychic powers but it's internal, rather than harnessing an outside power.
Nids are mostly unchanged, their hive-mind stuff can also be inherent or even be changed.
Orks need no real change.
Necrons too, either old or newcrons could work.
Tau never had much interaction anyway.

Create traitors and breakaway factions that aren't lured away by Chaos, but by the overly restrictive life in the Imperium.

Obviously there's the nitty-gritty to fix, but Chaos and people who play/like it ruin the setting.

Oh and, no, I wont fuck off to Star Wars. It's space magic ruins it often too.

>>55120164
marinefags are butthurt becuase they need to rebuy their entire army

>>55123394
>Burst out from inside a body
>That body is obviously corrupted

>>55123541
>Remove Chaos
GW would never do that. It's time to Old Yeller the setting. It needs an AoS-style reboot, but even more aggressive.

>>55123635
Weren't the Necrons building pylons to seal away the chaos from the Galaxy? Just finish that plot

>>55123635
>It needs an AoS-style reboot, but even more aggressive
A-anon

>>55123541
and retcon the entire HH

>>55120164
Just your standard salty dudes who don't like that the setting isn't exactly how they would do it.

>>55122171
There's an entry in the Codex where they wake up in the middle of a Tau vs someone else conflict. They erase the enemies, the Tau decide to throw a party for their metallic saviors. Relentless slaughter ensues.

>>55123665
The other options are to continue on the current path of the lore, which means no substantive changes - or to aggressively retcon stuff to realign the lore, which pisses people off and hurts customer retention. There's a reason big universe resets like Crisis On Infinite Earth were so popular in the comic industry, and after the financial success of AoS, I think it's the only way you can attract a player-base that you will have any chance of keeping in the long term.

>>55123737
It was revealed that the Necron host was Anrakyr's legion. He gave a speech to the Tau Ethereal which can be summed up as "Nothing Personal, kid".

>>55123779
Oh, okay. Think I've only seen the timeline entry.

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>>55123792
It's a quote hidden in the 5th ED Necron dex. Not your fault for missing it.

>>55119160
Lets just get rid of the GROGNARDS who ruin this game for new players and old ones who are smart enough to see 8th is an improvement to the meh-hammer 40k.

>>55120164
just people butthurt about marines being the focus of the setting, despite this being the case since RT, and because they're convinced marines are the most unoriginal thing ever because of all the marine clones that came afterwards, but have no problem with generic space elves, generic space orcs, generica space demons, anime mechas, xenomorph clones, robot tomb kings and generic space soldiers.

>>55123541
Maybe fuck off to a hard sci fi setting since magic ruins everything for you instead of wanting the entire setting to fundamentally change to your tastes?

Inb4 "muh chaosfags". I play necrons.

I'm a skelefag.

>>55122467
I totally understand where you're coming from, a lot of settings are absolutely ruined by outright railroading. Its exactly what happened to MtG fluff when wizard's started pushing their planeswalker/Jace fanboy arcs, and I totally agree that it ruins settings.

The problem with 40k is that even with all of these awesome powerful characters everywhere, its really hard to imagine how they would interact in the setting to change things due to its own internal restrictions. The imperium restricts movements of pretty much everyone, so the "galaxy spanning" nature of the setting is restricted to the super elite/military. The military is so abusive/rigorous its unlikely anyone lasts long enough to have any sort of character arc, short of marines/scouts. independent thought is quashed via inquisitor, new invention a heresy. Every time i try to think of a compelling human arc, of somewhere i could drop PCs or some sort of plot hook, it gets crushed by one of the inevitable forces or totalitarian governments of the setting. Nothing can change, no one can win, what am I supposed to RP around?


I agree, its stupid and shitty to have plot points spoon-fed to you. Its always more fun to imagine your own plot points. My problem with 40k is that its really hard to have any sort of plot point around the setting's restrictions.

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>>55123859
Justify this.

>>55123541
That's retarded. You're retarded.
You clearly don't want 40k, so why even make suggestions to fixing it when all your suggestions just kill the entirety of what makes 40k 40k

>>55123905
I love wargaming, and 40k is ALMOST sci-fi, and the biggest table top wargame that there is. It has loads of faction and model diversity, and many of the models look cool. Chaos just makes the background setting intolerable.

>>55123873
No, YOU fuck off to a pure fantasy setting where you can play actual skeletons.

This thread was "How do we fix the setting?" I gave my answer. You don't need to like it.

>>55123894
Girlyman's been hitting the sauce since we woke up and saw what the Imperium has become.

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>>55123831
Huh, neat. Could've done without the speech, but I like the idea of him standing there, screeching in a language they don't understand and then murdering everything on the planet.

>>55119737
You my dude know what's good.

>>55123960
>40k is ALMOST sci-fi,
e
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHSHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHa
HA
Way to show you know fuck all about the setting, it's far removed from Sci-Fi, it's fucking Science fantasy. Fucking space wizards, space elves, space orks, space magic are all major parts of 40k.
>>55123983
But your answer is shit. The question was how to fix the setting, not remove major parts of it and make it into something it's not

>>55123894
Plot advancement everyones been waiting since 2002

>>55123983
No, I'm fine with how necrons are. I think the Egyptian robot skeletons in space are cool.
Why would I leave if I enjoy the setting?
You don't to the point you don't want to fix it, you want to make it entirely different. Why don't you go find something you like more?
For your own sake.

>>55123194
That's dumb as shit. The entire point of Chaos is that it's born from and tied to the follies of mortal races, usually humans.

Incidentally, this is why every faction in 40k would be better off without the Imperium.

>>55124115
Well, not with NuPlot.
Remember that this makes the entire Cabal plot even dumber than it already is because now mankind literally was the only way to kill chaos.

>>55124028
Oh no, your pedantic argument preceded by neck-beard cringe level "laughter" has completely changed my mind.

Space elves/orks can easily be what they are made out to be in the current setting: aliens. Sure, they are a wink and a nod to the origins of 40k but remove the space magic and the wizards, and they no longer have to remain consistent with fantasy versions of elves/orks.

Removing major parts WOULD be an improvement. Kind of like removing a giant tumour on an organ.

>>55119160

Bring back the grimdark at least in the stories.

Bring back the shitty ends to everyone. Bring back the mysteries

End the shitty over the top writing.

End the shitty artwork.

End the Space Marine wankery and promote allied armies instead of 10 SM individual factions.

>>55122618
Ahh, the """quantum""" effect.

>>55123122
Seems an issue of semantics. The Necron didn't fall to Chaos or change its being in any way, the body it was occupying just (somehow) transformed into Lucius as per his curse.

>>55124164
>End the shitty artwork
That would be nice, but I don't think GW will do it
>End the Space Marine wankery and promote allied armies instead of 10 SM individual factions.
So much this

>>55123382
>read the minds of the Necrons nobles in order to see into what scares and then create warp illusions to cause panic and fear in the Necrons
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>55123737
I love how, discounting the Ultramarines in artwork, nowhere is the fractious, propagandist, he-said-she-said nature of 40k lore more apparent than when it relates to the Tau. In their codex and fluff, they're brilliant masters of technology who triumph against impossible odds by virtue of adaptability, ingenuity, and being the only fucking people in the setting with a basic grasp of tactics. In everyone else's, they're cowardly naive tiny blue communists who exist to be hilariously assraped by everyone and everything due to their own close-minded ignorance.

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>>55123382
That's retarded.

>>55124156
>Removing major parts WOULD be an improvement
No it wouldn't. By that logic, you could throw away everything, which is what you're essentially doing, and make it into a different good setting. Sure, that does make a good setting, but that misses the entire point: fixing 40k, not throwing it in the trash and taking a few ideas it has. And once again, you clearly don't like 40k. You may like the look, but you don't like the setting itself. That's quite clear, because your willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater and only keep the generic as fuck races, but lose the tons of lore and background that makes 40k interesting.

>>55119160
The real problem with GW is that they clearly have a favourite faction. That shouldn't happen in a business.
Look at CB, they have a mostly sane release schedule, with a bit of everything every month. Meanwhile, GW started filling non-existent gaps in the marines range while orks have models from the third edition

>>55124341
>Sure, that does make a good setting, but that misses the entire point: fixing 40k, not throwing it in the trash and taking a few ideas it has
That's what they did with Warhammer Fantasy though

>>55124389
If your argument is ever "Well GW did that when they made AoS" as for why something is good, then your flat out wrong. nothing about the transition from WHFB to AoS should be replicted

>>55124341
You might as well give up, we've found someone who takes 40k too seriously to enjoy it.

>>55124412
I agree; I meant that it is something had no problems doing in the past

>>55124341
So ONLY Chaos isn't generic as fuck? Okay sure, are you sure you play necrons?

You are correct in that I do NOT like the 40k setting/lore. I think it's juvenile and lacking nuance. I want to change into something I do like; hence fixing it. You don't fix what ain't broke, and I'm not going to propose changes to make it into what I think other people will like, as everyone has their own idea of what 40k would look best as. This is just an opinion thread, not gospel that GW is reading and going to pull ideas from. Don't worry, your precious space-hell-magic and faction are safe from my evil insidious preferences.

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>>55124231
."Heh, hey guys. Coolio idea right? See this emotionless robot here? Y-yeah the one that has been killed a reborn so many times it has no trace of what it used to be when it was organic. That... That's right, it will be pretty much only be running on command protocols. Yeah, it can get corrupted by Chaos! Haha, lol, I know right? It's so cool!"

>>55124422
>''Guise, it's supposed to be tongue in cheek LELXDDDDDDDD muh parody muh satire''
Go back to the nineties you fucking dork, 40k has been grimdark HFY for a long time.

>>55124453
>So ONLY Chaos isn't generic as fuck?

You mean the thing lifted wholesale from Moorcock?

>>55124470
>40k has been grimdark HFY for a long time.
And it's worse off for it. Fuck, I might take the HFY more seriously if Marines weren't the focus of it. I could buy IG and Inquisition and AdMechs and SoB against the horrors of the galaxy. Instead we get a wankfest of superhuman demigods versus superhuman demigods with spikes.

>>55123960
>>55124156
>>55124453
You unironicaly sound like an sjw, and i don't mean that as a ''lel leftie cuck'' slander, i mean it in the ''this things is cool and a lot of people like i but i don't like a lot of it so it should be changed into a completely different thing so i like it''. Seriously, i'm sure there are settings a lot closer to what you want then 40k. You're speaking gibberish
>i like the way things look but i don't like the reasons those things look that way
Fucking hell, just go roleplay some oc spehs gothic setting with no backstory then.

>>55124470
When did I say I had a problem with grimdark? I'm saying being unreasonably assblasted about the existence of supernatural elements in a science fantasy is bad for your blood pressure.

>>55124453
>So ONLY Chaos isn't generic as fuck?
Never said as much.
>Okay sure, are you sure you play necrons?
Are you so retarded you think anyone who responds to you is the same person?
>You are correct in that I do NOT like the 40k setting/lore. I think it's juvenile and lacking nuance.
Then fuck off, this thread is about fixing the 40k setting, not making a new one.
>I want to change into something I do like; hence fixing it.
That's not fixing it, that killing it then replacing it with something else.
>You don't fix what ain't broke, and I'm not going to propose changes to make it into what I think other people will like, as everyone has their own idea of what 40k would look best as.
But what you think 40k would look best as is in absolutely no way 40k. So you aren't talking at all about fixing 40k, you're talking about making something new that only takes certain parts from 40k
>This is just an opinion thread,
about fixing whats "killing the setting." straight up killing the setting and replacing it with something else does the exact opposite of that goal.
>not gospel that GW is reading and going to pull ideas from. Don't worry, your precious space-hell-magic and faction are safe from my evil insidious preferences.
Oh gee, you sure convinced me that you aren't retarded by talking down to me. You come into a thread about fixing what's "killing the setting" and your answer is "kill the setting" but sure, it's other people who need to be treated like children

>>55124361
>The real problem with GW is that they clearly have a favourite faction. That shouldn't happen in a business.
It happens BECAUSE they are a business. Marines sell. So they do more marines. Simple as that.

As for the topic of the thread GW is kind of doing what Hollywood does with remakes: trying to update it for the next generation without any solid idea what they even want or regard for what made the films worthwhile in the first place.

40k basically as jumped the shark. It's had a good run, but now it's only gonna get worse. I honestly wouldn't be super sad to see it die completely.

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>>55124264
>>55124455
>>55124333
Anons please. The transferred Necron minds are capable emotion. Necrons feel pain, pride, despair, fear, and a whole range of other emotions.

Enemies such, as the psychic Eldar and the forces of Chaos, that are known to use their enemies own emotions against them should be capable of screwing with the Necrons like the rest of the races.

You expected the Necrons to gain personality and retain their unfeeling and cold aspect? You fools.

>>55124588
>It happens BECAUSE they are a business. Marines sell. So they do more marines. Simple as that.
That probably happens because they mostly care and release stuff for marines only

>>55124523
Jeez, what's with all the personal attacks? The thread asked what we'd like to see to fix the setting. If it had asked "What would make the setting more popular?' I wouldn't have responded at all. I can't speak for the fanbase or people at large. I can only respond with my own preferences. I stated them, figuring it would be pretty different from everyone else. Apparently what I like is horribly offensive and deserves derision.

>>55124519
>And it's worse off for it.
That's your opinion. Personally, i can resonate a lot deeper with a story that takes itself seriously then a Judge Dredd homage (and i love Judge Dredd). It wouldn't be one tenth as big if it kept being satire, because you can only get invested into a joke so much. There isn't a single pure comedy piece of media where you actually give a shit what happens to the characters or the plot, your care rises directly proportionally to the drama and tragedy mixed in.
>I might take the HFY more seriously if Marines weren't the focus of it. I could buy IG and Inquisition and AdMechs and SoB against the horrors of the galaxy. Instead we get a wankfest of superhuman demigods versus superhuman demigods with spikes.
This is the eternal debate which i can't stand. Marines ARE human. They are literally people who have given up their very humanity to fight for their species. And i think the Guard gets just the right amount of exposure. We love them so much BECAUSE they get shat on all the time and come back for more. If they kept winning and outperforming Marines all the time, THAT would be annoying hfy.
>AdMechs
Lol, Marines are ten times more human then those fucks.

>>55124587

>Oh gee, you sure convinced me that you aren't retarded by talking down to me. You come into a thread about fixing what's "killing the setting" and your answer is "kill the setting" but sure, it's other people who need to be treated like children
Hey man, just returning the favour. I was immediately mocked and insulted for daring to have an opinion that drastically changed 40k.

>>55124623
It's also stated that each time a Necron is killed and their mind transferred to a new body that they're consciousness degrades until it is nothing, leaving them mere automatons you fucking invalid.

>>55124557
Well shit, i thought the post i was replying to was making fun >>55124341
There goes my reading comprehension. Sorry m8.

>>55124629
It's a chicken and egg thing. Whatever gets the most focus is going to get the most fans/sales. It's pretty recursive after that.

>>55124672
Nope, that's just weird pre-Newcron fluff. The Newcron codexes mention nothing of the sort.

>>55124660
>I was immediately mocked and insulted for daring to have an opinion that drastically changed 40k.
Because your solution to fixing what's "killing 40k" is "kill 40k"
Does your last name happen to be Kevorkian?

>>55124672
Like the Stormkikes? Lol

>>55124705
/pol/ please leave.

>>55124728
>
Calm your tits mate

>>55124587

>Then fuck off, this thread is about fixing the 40k setting, not making a new one.
>That's not fixing it, that killing it then replacing it with something else.
>But what you think 40k would look best as is in absolutely no way 40k. So you aren't talking at all about fixing 40k, you're talking about making something new that only takes certain parts from 40k

The only thing I want to remove is Chaos. Everything else I'd like to keep, and just fill in the holes where Chaos was. Unless you think Chaos is the essence of 40k, I think we can agree that removing 1 thing out of dozens of factions is hardly killing the whole setting. It involves some major changes sure, but minor tweaks aren't really going to be felt.

>about fixing whats "killing the setting."

I took that as "What can be done to improve the setting?", but I suppose if one was to be RAW about a forum topic, you have a point there.

>>55124639
40k is as ridiculously over the top as always, except it's losing its self awareness. HH and its permeating of every bit of new lore isn't good drama, it's melodrama. And AdMech being creepy fucks who wish they were machines instead of mere humans is a welcome bit of flavor. By contrast, the inhumanity of Marines is wildly inconsistent, and in lore that focuses on them as opposed to regular humans (which is most of it), they might as well be Humans, But Better In Every Way.

And don't get me started on the fucking Primarchs.

>>55124694
Really? Fuck this Newcron stuff then, I'm done. It's so shitty that Chaos is "Herp-derp, do whatever the fuck I want." Necrons have emotions and warp presence, what is this shit.

>>55124631
Fixing the setting isn't completely changing everything that makes it what it is, anon. You could easily fix Twilight, for example, the biggest change would be the quality of writing and character development/direction, while keeping a lot of core elements like the characters themselves, the setting, the trivia etc. What you proposed is the equivalent of taking Twilight, completely changing the setting, the internal rules, history, and characters. Sure, it's a better story, but it hasn't been ''fixed'', just scrapped.

>>55124639
>>55124774
Also: satire doesn't equal comedy.

>>55124782
Friendly reminder that you asked for this.

>>55122268
people cry that is retarded because it is AoS. Which is the very definition of retarded, so they are not wrong

>>55124774
>By contrast, the inhumanity of Marines is wildly inconsistent, and in lore that focuses on them as opposed to regular humans (which is most of it), they might as well be Humans, But Better In Every Way.
That's because GW wont hire actual writers, instead we're stuck with cucks like goulding and crybaby edgelords like adb.
>And don't get me started on the fucking Primarchs.
Horus Heresy was a mistake.

>>55124773
>The only thing I want to remove is Chaos
HOLD IT!
You did not just say you wanted to remove chaos, you said
>Make this a hard Sci-Fi setting because making it fantasy IN SPAAAACE just leads to overly retarded parallels.
Making 40k go from science fantasy to hard sci-fi is most definitely removing one of the pillars of 40k. And not to mention how a fuckton of parts of 40k go away when you do that, including but not limited to:
The war in heaven (so no crons, eldar or orks)
The emperor
The primarchs
The space marines
The age of strife
The fall of the eldar
The dark age of technology
Astropaths
The custodes
The tau
The SoB
The Grey knights
The inquisition
The entire imperium
The C'tan

all this goes away or has to be entierly reworked with your plan.
>I took that as "What can be done to improve the setting?", but I suppose if one was to be RAW about a forum topic, you have a point there.
Then your still retarded. killing the setting does not improve it, it kills it.

>>55123122
>not liking my personal favorite faction is racism

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>>55124773
>Unless you think Chaos is the essence of 40k, I think we can agree that removing 1 thing out of dozens of factions is hardly killing the whole setting.
Friendly reminder that pic related is EXACTLY what the setting was about at it's peak, before abused manchildren started shitting on one side and wanking the other.

>>55124823
Asked for what? I never specifically asked for my favourite race to be butchered or changed in anyway since I first started collecting them, faggot. I've never had any qualms with how Necrons have been.

I wanted them to be this big doomsday threat. Chaos being able to infiltrate everything but then this ancient race of immortal machines rises and begins to turn everything to dust that they can't manipulate. Actually make these gay bullshit Daemons scared and think, "Wtf? This is actually something we need to be serious about. Can't rape our way or do warp bullshittery out of this pretty cool plot device."

But no, need to pander to Chaos since they're one of the mains of the franchise. Some great writing.

>>55124891
>Horus Heresy was a mistake.
So much this.
Calling Primarchs demigods and geniuses hold up in an Index Astartes article and actually sounds cool.
If you try and have a pulp fiction writer come up with what an actual genius would do there really is no other possible outcome other than an utter disappointment.
And even worse, most of the books were just terrible with characterization in general, cause GW writers get off on bolterporn and badly written battle scenes.

>>55124929
Tyranids have never been a problem

>>55124974
>If you try and have a pulp fiction writer come up with what an actual genius would do there really is no other possible outcome other than an utter disappointment.
This. Esspecially the "pulp fiction writer" part. Writing the primarchs in a way that actually makes them out to be what the lore says they are is not at all impossible, but it's beyond the capablities of most of the current 40k writers

>>55124979
The tyranid represents all xenos. Literally wgaf npc races, it's humanity's hope vs its despair, heaven or hell, let's rock!

>>55125032
>>>/hhg/

>>55124929
You wanna know what's wrong with 40k? It's this image right here.

>>55124974

I know, man. It's like... The essence of 40k was this decayed, crumbling empire steeped in ten thousand years of ignorance and fanaticism. The kind of place that worships its founder, a warlord and man of science, as a god, and tortures and kills you like the Spanish Inquisition if you don't believe. The kind of place that makes most totalitarian hellscapes look like a walk in the park, because if you're not killed for a heretic or sent to die on the frontlines against some unfathomable enemy, maybe you're just lost in the immense bureaucracy and your planet dies because someone made a mistake in filing the reports that said to send you supplies and you all starve. And the defenders of humanity were people modified and augmented into fanatical thugs who had as little regard for the common man as any alien, and your life doesn't really mean shit to them.

But then, look at how it is now. Y'know how the decadent Imperium worships the Emperor as a God? Well of course that's silly, he's actually stronger than the gods! Remember how the chapters of Marines paint their progenitors as semi-mythical beings, unfathomably intelligent and powerful, more akin to a pantheon of demigods than any sort of real humans? Well, yeah, that's exactly what they were! Is the Imperium a corrupt husk as inhumane towards its citizens as the threats of Chaos and Xenos around it, so much that turning to their side is often the best or even only choice? No, the Space Marines are the Heroes and you'll read about their Adventures as they defeat the evil Villains and score great Victories.

Buy our fucking figurines.

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>>55125032
>heaven or hell, let's rock!

>>55124974
>>55125006
What i REALLY hate about the books is, most of them are mediocre as fuck. On every level. The prose is amateurish, its like something i or some other fan would have written, somebody who read their fair share of all kinds of fiction and now wants to write themselves. Which wouldn't necessarily be that bad if they actually contributed anything new. The writers had literal blueprints for their stories, because all the major events where already in the lore.
things HH ''''''''''writers'''''''''' didn't contribute
>actual cool new fluff
things HH ''''''''''writers'''''''''' did contribute
>character assassinations
>abundance of poorly used cliches
>completely worthless pandering characters
It infuriates me so much when you realize that there wasn't one actual great idea there. It's like a bunch of dorks took a history book and started writing their own fanfiction about it. And all the cool parts and characters where already there, they just made them crappier.

>>55124920
IMO, removing chaos WOULD make it sci-fi, because without the warp, what fantastical elements are left?
Aliens that look like fantasy counterparts?
Vaguely medieval looking buildings/armour?
I admit; I erred calling it HARD sci-fi. What I meant, is that if you remove space-hell and it's residents, many of the things you listed would probably change. Those changes don't kill the setting though, I'm not asking the space-nuns to become kind gentle reluctant protectors of the people, or the T'au to change in any way (I'm pretty sure I actually said that). They would adapt to what the warp/chaos-less setting. I mean, is it any worse a position to have than "remove space marines"? I'm not saying you have said that, but it could be done, and the setting would be intact. Vastly different, but intact. I don't see how what I'd like to see is any different.

>>55125171
>It's this image right here.
Ironically, i'm the guy who said HH was a mistake. So you're agreeing with the guy who agreed with me, while disagreeing with me.

Stop the Chaos wanking.

Introduce Gods of Law.

Problem solved.

>>55125186
>humanity in setting is incredibly fanatical and zealous, but it's actually justified because Space Hell does exist and daemons are real
>''Hey guys, let's remove Space Hell, surely nothing will change!''

>>55125245
You can change the reason they are fanatical and zealous, and even have it be unjustified, or only semi-justified. It would make a more interesting imperium, instead of just THE PROTAGONISTS.

>>55125245
Just make space hell less bullshit and setting breaking.

>>55125214
>Stop the Chaos wanking.
THIS. I don't mind that they are the biggest threat and the main reason of why both humans and eldar act like assholes, but the setting is more fun when there are so many threats in the galaxy (Imperium incluyed) that the only reason it still exist is because of the eternal Free-For-All.

>>55125186
>IMO, removing chaos WOULD make it sci-fi, because without the warp, what fantastical elements are left?
None of them, but all those elements include all the things I listed (except the C'tan). by killing the warp, you remove all that stuff, which is to say everything except the tyranids and C'tan.
Good job fuckwit, you killed the setting.

>>55125363
Did you just get so angry you missed the part where the rest of the list just adapts, rather than disappears? There could be very good reasons for most of those to exist in a warp-less setting. It doesn't take much, just use a little imagination.

>>55125214
I've always been for making chaos more chaotic and diverse. And not in the SJW meme way. Make it a reflection of the mortal psychosphere and have gods/daemons of all emotions. Lots of gods. And make the big 4 less monolithic and monotonous. Give them depth and different facets. Make them a legitimate, but inhuman/insane, alternative to the Emperor. As it stands it's just "lol big satan tricked u ur a spawn now", which is dumb and gives no real reason for people to ever be cultists.
I think the Daedra or the Yozi are pretty good examples of what I'd like them to be like. Embodiments of insane, otherworldly worldviews and mindsets, but ones that might actually appeal to people and that let you take alternate approaches. Khorne liking a marine killing heretics and demons as much as he likes a berserker killing in his name as much as he likes a politician who loves to sow conflict and ruin his enemies.

>>55121683
>30k
>literally a setting just for marines
Yeah, fuck the Mechanicus and the Solar Auxillia. Just because people only play Marines in 30k doesn't mean that the other armies don't exist.
>FW
>model lines approaching several decades old
Except GW should be focusing on updating ancient models, not FW. I guess that's why you see so many people using Eldar Corsairs and FW Ork models. If Forgeworld made Sisters, for instance, people would whinge about "FW models" and resin casting.

>>55125289
>It would make a more interesting imperium, instead of just THE PROTAGONISTS.
>literally dime-a-dozens settings where HURR OPPRESSION/RELIGION IS BAD M'KAY MUH LIBERAL OPEN MINDED FREEDOM FIGHTERS
>ONE (1) setting where ''this is literally the only way humanity was able to survive in a galaxy that actively wants them dead''
>HURR DURR WHY ARE THEY JUSTIFIED HUMANITY SUCKS YOU CAN ALWAYS AFFORD TO BE A HIPPIE
Get the fuck out of here.

>>55125294
I agree with this.

>>55125409
>There could be very good reasons for most of those to exist in a warp-less setting. It doesn't take much, just use a little imagination.
That's simply incorrect. All those things are what they are because of the warp, if you remove that they become something entirely different. This is especially true with everything the Emperor did, because he's only able to do that because of his warp powers, if you remove that he's either a mary sue or everything becomes generic sci-fi

>>55125632
Thank you for this. Not because it makes sense, because it doesn't, but because you've just given me new insight into the sort of mentality that makes people defend this approach.

Should've put two and two together before, really.

>>55122265
Fuck off Carnac you gigantic faggot

>>55125688
So because Big E's powers come from the warp he's not a mary sue? I would say if he's not a mary sue its because of his inability to connect with the people around him on a personal level, which lead to the heresy. That can all still happen without the warp or chaos gods. Most of the factions you mention can be adapted without changing who they are. SoB are still the church militant, who go out and burn heretics. GKs are still the epicly-rare combination of psyker and space marine of purity. So on and so forth with the rest. When the enemy of mankind is mankind, they don't have to be lead by "ruinous powers" just people.

>>55125632
Cool, thanks for flanderising my opinion so you can argue against it more easily and inserting your personal political opinions. To clarify: the IoM could still be regimented and restrictive, and for good reason, and be seen as a faction worth following. Those aspects are exactly why it's survived intact for so long, and that wouldn't have to change. I'm saying that other human factions could also exist, in conflict with that IoM and have actually good reasons for being in conflict with the IoM without those factions inherently be mustache-twirlers for simpletons.

>>55125885
>GKs are still the epicly-rare combination of psyker and space marine of purity.
>remove warp
>bitch about space magic
>keep psykers
oh, ok. You're retarded.

The solution is to get a copy of Rogue Trader and play that with the new models and rules.

Or whatever edition you prefer.

>>55125916
My problem with space-hell-magic is it's source, and it's "inherent corruption" not it's presence, dipshit.

>>55125916
You can have psychic powers, even dangerous ones, without retarded space demons

>>55126000
Then remove the inherent corruption retard, don't say you want to make it "sci-fi" instead of "fantasy IN SPAAAACE"
Because it makes you look like an utter retard when you bitch about fantasy in space and then keep fucking space magic, which is by definition science fantasy

>>55125786
There is literally no other way to talk to you people.
>muh shades of gray
Choosing to commit atrocities to survive is gray in and of itself, not every story has to have a ''oh, and they're also just a bunch of witless hicks who could have totally found a better way'' in it so smug assholes can feel superior. It's very refreshing to see a ''adapt your ideals or die for them'' setting actually be legit for once.

>>55126040
Would you call Mass Effect fantasy then? They have Biotics randomly among humans, and even a race of entirely biotic aliens. And, when biotics are really just psychic powers with a new name, it seems to be that you can have psychic powers in a sci-fi setting (and still call it space magic for fun)

>>55126087
then it's not space magic. And if your setting has people able to do what psykers in 40k can do then it's science fantasy no matter how you try and justify it, because a fuck ton of that shit breaks the very laws of physics. It's no different than necrons.

>>55125885
>inserting your personal political opinions
The term ''Liberal'' doesn't automatically have to do with politics, anon, i understand how the current climate has you thinking otherwise.
>To clarify: the IoM could still be regimented and restrictive, and for good reason, and be seen as a faction worth following.
Except you'd have to rebuild it from the ground up, because unless daemons and corruption actually exist they're just a bunch of fanatical oppressive assholes that use religion as a means of control as opposed to the only way to preserve the species.
>I'm saying that other human factions could also exist, in conflict with that IoM and have actually good reasons for being in conflict with the IoM without those factions inherently be mustache-twirlers for simpletons.
You're just saying things that sound alright at the first impression without actually thinking about them. ANY major society different from The Imperium would either be libertarian as fuck and make them look like Space Nazis, or even more evil, in which case, why the fuck did you erase Chaos? To say nothing of humanity infighting while there's a galaxy full of horrors preying on them being absolutely retarded. Everything you say brings far to much change to the setting, might as well make a new one.

>>55119218
>guardsmen fags placing barbed wire

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>>55123075
>The Void Dragon was sharded and the Dragon of Mars is just a shard of it.
>>55123285
>The shards are seeking each other out to merge.
And how do we know the Dragon of Mars isn't the largest piece of the Void Dragon?

>>55125565
>I've always been for making chaos more chaotic and diverse
>Embodiments of insane, otherworldly worldviews and mindsets, but ones that might actually appeal to people and that let you take alternate approaches. Khorne liking a marine killing heretics and demons as much as he likes a berserker killing in his name as much as he likes a politician who loves to sow conflict and ruin his enemies.
I agree that Chaos as a whole should be broaden in scope (Thinks of it, Daemonettes that are NICE!), but the Chaos Gods themselves should remain the four rather nebulous quadrants of the psychological compass.
Minor Chaos "gods" are fine, but what makes the Big 4 so eternal is that they are more a moral direction than a singular entity.

>>55122125
>Crone Swords, as far as I know, are not usually found in Chaos temples and they do not contain malefic entities.

DB seems more like ancient artifact like C'tan stuff thing. What with the "time steal" effect. It was also nearby fuck off Chaos souvenirs, so overplayed the Chaos temple aspect a bit there.

>Waiting for Chaos to possess a C'tan shard to be canon in the fluff

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>>55126731
>Orks did manage to loot an Avatar of Khaine who could kick arse for once.

>>55126060
I'm gonna dispense with the requisite insults because honestly that shit gets boring. Turning the Imperium into tragic heroes that just do what they need to do to survive devalues the setting. It doesn't need to be an indictment of religion or conservative policies or whatever the fuck, but the fact that the galaxy's a shithole where there are no good guys is a core part of 40k. Yeah, they are a bunch of hicks, that's the point. Tank schematics are taken from old farming equipment. The founder is venerated as a god. Dissent is called heresy and punished by death. There's little room in 40k for heroes, especially if they're heroes via making everyone else an NPC.

>>55127538
They're tragic heroes by virtue that they're humans who are just trying to survive.
>but the fact that the galaxy's a shithole where there are no good guys is a core part of 40k
What makes them ''good guys'' is that they're human. EVERY species is justified in what they're doing, either because they're ensuring their own survival or because they're following their nature. But we're gonna root for our own. You're building a strawman there. 40k is one of the absolute most grey settings out there if you're looking it from a moral high horse, objectively. You NEED to get subjective to root for The Imperium. My main problem is that the impression i'm getting is that some people are proposing an additional human empire of enlightened mary sues that would exists only to shit on The Imperium. The setting is literally ''THIS is what it takes to survive Hell'', and if you find the measures too inhuman, that's fine, it's your opinion. But don't go twisting the truth like that. The setting was always about ''everyone's an asshole, but these are our assholes, dammit!''.

>>55125184
This 1000%.

And to add to your list, they also contributed by turning the original story into a convoluted clusterfuck that strains at the limits of narrative cohesion.

>>55123122
>He is a moron and so is you

>>55119160
First and fucking foremost GW, and a lot of the fucktards who insisted on moving the plot forward (which resulted in the canon rape that is 8th edition) need to realize that the canon is not important save for a canvas for players to make their own stories, armies and themes.

The setting, by necessity, needs to be as contradictory and ambiguous, in fluff as it can be due to the fact the game, the hobby and the community should be focused on the only thing that matters. Your Dudes.

The biggest problem that has come about with writing intricate details, and forcing changes on the fluff is that it slowly eats away at the options and imagination of the hobbyist, either dumbing down the base user or putting off those who seek not to be restricted or patronized to in a hobby they know, love and have spent countless hours, dollars and thought on.

For me this is apparent in many newfags to the hobby who screamed we needed an end times, and to move the story on. Forgetting that fluff wise in the future there is only war, meaning there is no meaning beyond what the player invests. Secondly if you cant be creative and make your own stories and conflicts in a history of a galaxy spanning 10,000 years you are a fucking idiot. The idea you should be given a new story, instead of making your own, says heaps about the dullness and poor fit for the hobby a lot of new hobbyists have.

(Cont)

>>55119160
>working at games workshop and fixing it yourself not the first answer

As an outsider and some one who enjoys reading the lore (still trying to find a proper novel to read) and a fan of sci-fi stories and what not, I've felt things would be more interesting if either it only dealt with the imperium and the strife of man or everything else. Having both elements competing seems to muddy things

>>55128392
Couple that with the fact that historically every attempt at updating a setting (Forgotten Realms 4th edition, MTG, Aos) to cater to a great new change for change sake always ends up with an inferior and less creative setting than what was before the changes occurred, it means that I myself am more contemptuous and skeptical of a product when such changes are implemented.

Finally, I love my 40k, but fuck Games Workshop. The redshirts who know nothing of the setting who try and act sagely and superior on knowledge of the product compared to people who've been playing the fucking game since the early nineties, to the out right contempt it shows for its own product trying to chase the "beer and pretzels" hipster crowd that are only interested in the latest shiny thing. GW has become a hollow, greedy and careless beast and the product has suffered as a result (the shitty canon changes, the mary sue factions, the dumbing down of the games, the monopause minis plus the new minis having way to much goofy detail making converting and creating more difficult and tedious, amongst many other stupid fucking things its done)

(cont)

>>55128538

Whilst I can continue to bitch at length on the changes, updates, and community around 40k my main frustration for these implementations is also the main reason I still play, model and paint. It is also the reason at the end of the day as long as I game with like minded people these things actually very little. 40k is a game about my guys and your dudes, its about the story and narrative you chose to make. If we as a group decide end times didn't happen, end times didn't happen. If you want to run your own campaign then great do so as first and foremost it should be about you and whatever enjoyment you get from gaming the way you do. Its one of the reason I consider us Narrative guys to have it better than the competative guys. We realize we can write our own rules, change our own settings, play whatever edition we like and aren't bound to the obligatory updates or codex creeping to stay relative or enjoy the hobby.

At the end of the day fuck the new "official" updates. I have my 40k and I always will.

>>55119160
Rein in the Marine and Chaos wank.

>>55119902
>>Retcon absurd giant Primarchs and dick waving contests they emdoby.
>What? The HH is probably one of the best parts of the fluff.
Having side characters that are ancient and still trying to deal with the fallout from the HH is interesting and cool. Having the primarchs around is boring and takes too much attention away from your dudes.

>>55122171
>Is there any re-writes where Necrons still actually seem like an unstoppable threat which I can pretend is canon?

Look up the Orphean War.

Why can't we go back to Rogue Trader when the setting was fun and not a huge pile of shit

>>55128728
It was always a huge pile of shit, anon. Need I remind you of Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau?

>>55127867
Alright, we got a discussion going. First off, I wasn't aware we were framing the discussion in terms of comparing with a morally better human alternative, so my bad there.

As for 40k being grey? Eh. If morality is a zero sum game, maybe. Else it's Harlequins and Farsight Enclaves at the white, Craftworlders and the nicer parts of the Imperium at the lighter shades of grey, and down from there it's darker till you get to the Dark Eldar. See, I get the notion of "I'm human, they're human, everyone's an asshole, so let's root for them", but its ubiquity annoys me. It's a fine position to take on its own, but lots (and I mean LOTS) of people extrapolate from there towards "they're human, therefore they're morally superior by definition". Stuff like "they're justified in killing Xenos noncombatants because they're human" -- and I've seriously heard that. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because sometimes people get a bit too into the fascist and supremacist overtones, you feel me?

Not sure what's the strawman I'm making or truth I'm twisting, though.

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>>55119160
You stop taking the setting seriously like it's some carefully crafted shared universe, and remember that it was always a kitchen-sink parody setting combining Space Opera, Judge Dredd, Warhammer Fantasy, and Heavy Metal Cover Albums.

>If you steadily churn out grimdark, Po-faced grimdark nonsense for decades
Except it hasn't been unironicly grimdark without tongue-in-cheek for "decades" it has been that way for BARELY a decade, and the decade before that (the early 00's, late 90's) the current money-spending-base of the company were literal children/AngstyTeens who didn't get the joke and took it totally seriously.

>>55129219
Sorry, this was meant to ALSO reply to>>55122555

>>55119160
Ignore anything incompatible with canon as it stood in the Chambers era. Ignore HH novels especially.

>>55129143
Ah, my bad. You assumed i was taking a stance of moral superiority. This is understandable. No. I have a very much subjective approach to 40k, probably more so then any other fictional work. Objectively, you can understand Dark Eldar, could anyone honestly say they wouldn't act the same in their shoes? Yes, they fucked up, and it's their fault, and Eldar in general are super-hypocrites, but they can't really be expected to just go ''Welp, we screwed up everything, let's just lay down and get devoured by rape satan''. Orks and Tyrannids are just following their nature, Chaos as well, Necrons are desperately searching for their souls and bodies etc. Objectively, no one's more righteous then others.
Subjectively, on the other hand
I love The Imperium because they're my species, and because their story is (for me) the most inspirational and heart-wrenching tale of sacrifice, struggle and will in existence. Because they refuse to lay down and die against the worst horrors in fiction. I love The Emperor because, no matter what abused manchildren write about him, he is the greatest hero ever. Someone who was willing to do ANYTHING for the species he loves, ultimately condemning himself to endless torment, just to give us a chance. I love Astartes because they embody a lot of things i can strongly get behind, courage, brotherhood, sacrifice, endless resolve, also they're really fucking cool in both appearance and mythos. I love the Guard for a lot of those same reasons, with the added underdog quality, and a huge emphasis on courage. I love the idea that even against the worst horrors possible, our species and it's core values would survive, as twisted and perverted as they are. Honestly, courage and last stands touch me deeply, and The Imperium is literally built on those.
I hate Chaos for what they represent, human weakness and fallibility, the darkness in our hearts wanting to drag us into the abyss.

cont.

>>55129467
Wanting to prove that, ultimately, man is a slave to his baser natures, that we are not deserving of the light.
I hate The Eldar and ESPECCIALY DEldar because they're among the biggest hypocrites in fiction.
>created by gods
>handed down super tech and knowledge with no work
>manage to SPECTACULARLY fuck things up not just for themselves, but the entire fucking galaxy
>literally the basest degenerates in the setting
>have the gall to act superior to ANYONE
>especially a species that worked blood, sweat and tears for everything they have
And DEldar have the added vileness of being the worst fucking vermin imaginable, cowardly vultures raiding defenseless worlds to drag the hapless populace to be unimaginably tortured. One of the best things about the setting is that all you have to do is kill one to give them their just deserts.
I hate Tau because they're like a kid who came when a horrible war ended and is now taking a stance of moral superiority on the jaded veterans. I hate them because they're weaboo bait that ruin everything they touch. I hate the writers wanking them at the expense of everyone else. Fuck those blue faggots. Worst thing about the setting.
As for Nids, Orks and Necrons, it comes down to them wanting to exterminate us. No hypocrisy or personal vendetta there, just business, and i can respect that. I dislike them since they're a threat to us, but not much beyond that.

>Stuff like "they're justified in killing Xenos
noncombatants because they're human"
Well, sure, as long as the person that said that is fully aware they're taking a completely subjective stance.
>It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because sometimes people get a bit too into the fascist and supremacist overtones, you feel me?
I feel you. I fall into this trap sometimes myself, but thankfully i can keep a cool head where it matters.
Cont.

>Tone down Chaos
>Literally every fucking story or plot needs to have Chaos involved, either pulling the strings or benefiting from it
This can be easily done, just have that whole War in the Rift thing lead to Chaos being greatly weakened, and this can lead to a whole lot of fun stuff, like Orks managing to get into the Warp and start pillaging Chaos realms in a giant WAAGH, or Eldar taking this chance to reclaim their lost souls, and incorporate more Alien interaction with Chaos rather than just human v human
>More subjective, but more emphasis on the whole warrior monk aspect of the Space Marines
The big boys are becoming too tactical and regular joe for my taste, they should be these devout warrior monks who are blinged out in tabards and are barely even human anymore. Can be emphasized with Guilliman looking at these fanatic monks and lamenting how they've fallen since the HH or whatever.

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>>55129600
I'm actually pretty libertarian when it comes to ideals, but i love characters making hard calls in horrible situations. Because life will suck, and suck bad, and shit will go horribly wrong. Obviously 40k is over the top in that regard, but it does it well.
Ultimately, what i love about the setting is that there ISN'T always a better way, just like there isn't in life. And heroism in the face of impossible odds.

>>55125184
>It's like a bunch of dorks took a history book and started writing their own fanfiction about it
>what is alternate history fiction

>>55124631

What you're proposing doesn't "fox the setting", it destroys it utterly and replaced it with something else entirely.

>>55124970

>being mad because your villain sure race was replaced by another villain sure race

>>55123983
How to fix this setting. You want an entirely different setting. Might as well fix StarTrek by removing space travel and aliens.

>>55128744
What, a silly character in a silly game? How is that bad?

>>55130987
>LOLSORANDUMB string of random references humor
>Not horrible

Pick one.

>>55124929
this image is the problem with 40k, it treats the MAJORITY OF THE GALAXY AND BEYOND as background. Humankind isn't the center of the universe and this setting is the best place to lay the hubris of thinking such bare for all to see. but instead the setting goes and feeds it, shitting on its own creativity to do so

>>55131175
Name me a sci-fi franchise similar in size to 40k or larger where humans aren't the viewpoint race. I'll wait.

>>55129659
as an actual autist I have a huge amount of trouble grappling with the idea of better options not existing, this setting I feel actually helps it by humanizing the process leading to those decisions, not necessarily vindicating them but often showing the steps leading to it. I just feel like other factions could use more of the same, I fucking loved the lore of Chaos as Presented in the Black Crusade RPGs because it dared to humanize the mentality behind chaos worshippers

>>55131227
not that anon but you actually present a good point, this is a problem with nearly all sci-fi

Retcon everything made or published after 4e and start again, remembering this time that space marines are supposed to be part of the 40k setting and not the protagonists of the before-school Space Marine cartoon block. Also don't let the daddy issues guy near the setting ever again.

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>>55119200
nailed it on the first response. Bingo

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>>55131175
Humanity is the center of the universe and has always been the best selling models thus it gets the most focus in the lore.

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>>55131175
I think you interpreted the image backwards

>>55131258
>this is a problem with nearly all sci-fi
The thing is it's not a problem at all

>>55131345
I recognize that the image is basically saying xenos should be removed from the game, seeing them as a glorified distraction. I also recognize that that mindset is exactly the problem, and pandering to it is only going to make the setting worse and worse you anthropocentric bag of dicks

>>55131397
yes it is, it fails to explore other mindsets, it fails to world build or craft a setting larger then our own species stupid ego. we are one species in the entire universe, we are not special, we don't get to be the protagonists of the universe and a story should reflect that more often

>>55124929
>battle for the soul of Mankind
What? There is no battle. Chaos is dumb and unlikeable unless you are edgy teen who rants about 'sins of humanity coming to punish them' which isn't true even in the fluff. One side is space catholic nazis who cannot into tech, other side is simply retarded assholes. No contest, no competition.

>>55131431
>it fails to explore other mindsets
Which isn't the goal of every setting and story, you know?
>then our own species stupid ego
So you want to see the same stupid ego under the mask of OC donutsteel other races? This is just rubber foreheads applied to the roles in the setting.

>>55131412
That's not what the image suggests. Imperium and chaos are like the oldest factions, they're consistently the main drama. All the iconic Blanche art that defined the setting is about humany stuff. Xeno factions have been added one at a time but they're never going to be the center of the universe.

>>55123541

>Get rid of Chaos
>Probably the most distinguishing feature of 40k and its most creative and distinct element.

Yeah no get fucked. I'm not even a chaosfag with preference for Tau/IG/Cron. The two Chaos chapters I do like are the Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors, I've little interest in the bonafied Chaos-y factions. The faction I irrationally hate on, when it's really just cruel kicking someone when they are down, are Tyranids. Genestealer Cults are the only reason I don't say remove the nids because the cults are great and well done

>>55131175

Humans are the dominant entity in the Milky way Galaxy and own the largest % of real estate. So of course they get the most focus. And there's zero emphasis or presence of beyond the galaxy in 40k. The only thing we know of it is:

-Nids came from it, they either ate everything in the closest galaxy or are fleeing something.
-Orks probably exist outside of the Milky way galaxy.

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>>55123541
Hey mate, don't mind the fucking pieces of virgin shit here at times. I agree with ya. having Warhammer 40k as a "Hard Sci Fi" setting would rock. I doubt it would be too science based only because it would indeed loose a lot, but I hope (beyond hope it appears.. :( ) that 40k comes back to it's roots. And stop with the reliance of magic, big fucking mechs, primarches walking around like normal soldiers... I love the idea of pskyer ability and something "supernatural" but it needs to be toned the fuck down.

>>55123541
>Remove the faction that is essentially responsible for the founding lore of the setting to fix it
>Turn setting into generic sci-fi that is cross between Star-Trek and Firefly
>Gets assblasted when rightfully pointed out idea is stupid and anon should feel stupid for suggesting it as fix to 40K

>>55119160
You mean GWs atrocious writers?

>>55131593
The writers must be purged

>>55119577
>was he ever called "the imperial fist" in-universe?
>forgetting his one missing hand

>>55131537
>Go back to 40k's roots
>Remove magic and giant robots
Chose exactly one.

>>55131498
Most the xenos factions existed in the original RT book. As long as there has been a 40k game there has been Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Genestealers, etc. Orks and Eldar both had kits before Chaos.

Chaos existing isn't bad.
Chaos being the penultimate bad that transcends time, space, and everything and always wins while no one else matters. That sucks.

>>55131939
>Chose exactly one.
The addition of Knights as well as Gundamizing Tau shows GW's opinion

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>>55119160
Just make it so daemons aren't the end all be all of armies - they have certain advantages no one else does but at the end of the day can still be destroyed and have to be more careful and strategic. That would lend Chaos a greater air of the subtle corrupter rather than the ridiculous childish "lol I win because I have infinite armies forever because reasons" that they have going now.

Also it's not that big a change, daemons do occasionally get offed for good, pic related.

>>55119160
Let it.

>>55128404
Don't be a faggot anon

>>55128744
> totally missing the point
The point is that character was fucking stupid, but he was a throwaway joke, not a central protagonist in the constructed canon of the background. The lack of canon and specific detail was great because it allowed your imagination to run wild and for silly shit to be dreamed up and then completely ignored if necessary.

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>>55121688
>>55123417
>it's a "guardfags are butthurt everything isn't about them" episode

Every time. You fucks get way more screentime than any xenos faction, quit whining.

>>55132280
Knights are old lore. Out of scale for the main game, but they predate Tau.

>>55133143
They'll be dealing with the WAAC stigma for a while cause of 8th

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>>55123417

Yeah and look at forge worlds models. If plastic guard actually looked like the Krieg or Solar Auxilla then the Space Marines would probably be a lot less dominant. Plastic guard all look like poorly-proportioned trash, even the vehicles.

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>>55119160
>the cancer

WAACfags projecting their faggotry on the fluff? The unhinged mewling about certain factions' portrayals in BL 'literature' and the propaganda reprinted in the dexes OF THEIR ENEMIES is peak 4chan. The reek of entitlement is eye-watering with some of you anons.

Did IG win the New Dex lottery? FUCK YOU GUARDFAGS!!! Was Chaos is confirmed to remain the primary threat to Terra that it's been since 2nd ed? FUCK YOU CHAOSFAGS!!! Does Citadel continue to churn out overwrought Space Marine models because they're profoundly stupid and it's one of the few things they can reliably be trusted to not fuck up? FUCK THIS GAY EARTH!!!

>being this emotionally invested
>in a game for ages 12+

Fucking sort yourselves out, /tg/.

Whats wrong with Marines?

>>55134737
No, fuck Chaosfags in general

Guilliman was a shitty choice for returning Primarch.

Should have been Lord Adorable.

T. Dark Angels player

>>55134737
>being this emotionally invested
>in a game for ages 12+
you seem awfully angry about this, if this is really how you feel.

That aside I don't really disagree with anything you said, but seriously...just move on. 40k is basically dead in spirit.
And there are loads of other games around these days too.

>>55119160
Go back to 20k

>>55133143
I'm a Marine player, have been since Rogue Trader, you fucking little scrote. I just happen to care about the setting getting overrun by saturday morning storytiem for retards. Not really surprised that a screechy liitle newfag would jump to the wrong conclusion though.
>Show me how to play with my dolls gee dub!

>>55134737
>Raging about people raging
>trying to take the high ground
Autism!

>>55119215
tpbp

>>55122889
remember when breaking cadia was chaos' Win condition?

>>55131498
Orks were the primary antagonists of the setting in the first edition. Chaos is a Johnny come lately who didn't become the main focus until 3e.

>>55134841
plsrespond

>>55136578
Chaos was main enemy since Realm of Chaos in 1988, Abaddon appeared in 2E.

>>55127867
>The setting is literally ''THIS is what it takes to survive Hell'',

That only works if the shit the Imperium gets up to actually works. Command economies are inefficient, trying to make your officers scarier than the enemy just leads to higher casualty rates for your own side, terrorizing your population makes them more vulnerable to fifth column infiltrators rather than less, etc. etc. Games Workshop aren't brilliant statesmen, or even moderately competent statesmen, such that they can create a convincing regime as a reaction to extreme circumstances. Their policy ideas are stupid and should logically fail rather than thrive under intense pressure. Warhammer 40k works best when the Imperium is its own worst enemy, because making a stupid and inefficient government is well within the capability of a b-list pulp writer, but making a government capable of successfully navigating eight simultaneous apocalypses is very, very hard.

>>55136692
>Chaos was main enemy since Realm of Chaos in 1988,

Only if you think that Chaos' mere existence automatically makes them the primary antagonist of the setting. Orks got more ink spilled for their sake in 1e, and Chaos and xenos alike took a backseat to marinesplosion in 2e, when Tyranids were presented as just as dire a threat as Chaos. It wasn't until 3e that Chaos began to receive more attention, what with Battlefleet Gothic revolving primarily around Imp vs. Chaos battles and the Eye of Terror campaign book being a thing. Even then, 3e gave Chaos two codices and one of them was just a revised version of the other, not an actual new faction the way space marines got their basic codex plus Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves, and this is the same edition that brought us the campaign book for Armageddon, so it's not like Chaos was even *that* much more prominent than orks at the time, and the main theme of 3e was "fuck everyone who isn't space marines."

>>55134841
>>55136677
They're overly represented

>>55134960
Primarchs should stay dead, but since marines players were manchildren wanting 30k heroes in 40k and whining over demon primarchs they got their new toys. Marines players are the worst

>>55136917
Tabletop wise probably , but since appearance it was written as main threat to Imperium.

>>55119737
Yeah, this guy is 100% correct.

>>55137045
The 2e 'nid codex refers to their coming invasion as "darkness unmatched since the darkest hour of the Horus Heresy." That pretty squarely puts 'nids on the same level as Chaos. You're just fanboying.

Every day I'll say it:

I'm glad that Grimdark is dead.

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>>55119160

Plastic Sisters with anime-pretty faces.

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>>55123541
>Remove Chaos entirely.
Listen ya grot. I'm an Orkfag and not a fan of the 'Muh Chaos is unbeatable and should always be shoved into everything evar, hijacking all the other antagonist's time in the limelight!' mentality going on at GW right now, but even I realize Chaos shouldn't be removed entirely.

Personally I'd have it dialed back to the Rogue Trader days when Chaos wasn't constantly being portrayed as this OP as hell faction.

>>55123960
>Chaos just makes the background setting intolerable.
Sad thing is it wasn't always this bad.

>>55125245
>Age of strife don't real
There is a much better alternative then omnipotent satans to justify the imperial extremism;Aliens are assholes,and will do terrible shit if we let them live.

>>55136917
>Orks got more ink spilled for their sake in 1e
So, 'Ere We Go (Ork 1e Codex) and the Freeboota codex then.

It's worth noting that the Freeboota codex contained a few Chaos-related entries, such as Khornate Stormboyz, Chaos Mutant Warbands, and Possessed Warpheads Amusingly, Possessed Warpheads aren't so much Chaos daemons possessing the Ork in the traditional sense (taking over their body and modifying it to its needs) as it attempting to hijack the Warphead Weirdboy's body, failing because the Warphead has an extremely strong sense of self-identity, and then becoming trapped inside the Warphead's noggin. Only thing it can really do is use the Warphead's mouth to argue with its host.

Chaos wasn't the 'we're stronger than every other enemy faction in 40k' mary-sue ridiculousness that it is today. Back then there was a greater balance between the various factions and it wasn't this "Marine vs Spikey Marine" crap we're going through now.

>>55122083
No. Both aren't compatible. You either take oldcrons as canon in your setting or newcrons, don't paint new as old cause it isn't the same.

>>55122265
No, we fucking didn't want personality now fuck off

>>55130218
I honestly wish that your hands fall of so you can never, ever post again. I don't know who you are but I hate you so fucking much, curse you and your retarded ass brain

>>55137886
>Marine vs Spikey Marine" crap
Nail on the head there. The reason chaos has been promoted to BBEG is because it allows GW to sell more of their number one faction but with spikes on, to those that think they are being edgy.
>yfw it's the truth and all the cheetah pics, sperg outs, tantrums and denial won't change the fact that you are white knighting a business ploy