MTG: Legacy General

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All combo is gay

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I'm sad at the moment. I've been playing dredge a long time now and I absolutely love it, but I would really like to build another deck. I've tried MUD, DnT, Delver, Miracles(when top was legal), Burn, Reanimator and Storm, but none of them have hit in the sweet spot as well as good old dredge.

Blood moon type of decks seem too similiar to MUD, that I don't even bother trying it. BUG leovold type decks are too expensive. What are my choices anymore?

I just love how dredge goes from being a nuts draw machine into grind opponent out. Especially now that I've been playing reactive cards main. I would like to see another deck with various possible playlines.

>>55112182
>I just love how dredge goes from being a nuts draw machine into grind opponent out. Especially now that I've been playing reactive cards main

do you have a list? I've been messing around with manaless dredge for fun, and while it's neat I haven't gone to play at my LGS with it since I want to play magic and not get BTFO by hate so I've been thinking about picking up the 4 LEDs for real dredge

>>55112132
fpbp

>>55113117
Practically same as any other LED dredge list, 1-2dread returns and 1 reanimate target. I've been lately playing firestorms main and sometimes dropped LEDs from main.

Playing online is a meme sometimes
>Playing grixis pyromancer with Jace VP and 4 Gurmags instead of DRS because I'm a special snowflake
>Opponent is playing some esper badstuff deck with Vizkopa Guildmage and the 1drop knight with levelup
>Win g1
>He has the audacity to call me a netdecker and HIS deck a t3 deck
>Leaves game

>>55113427
if this is one xmage or in the practice rooms of course it is filled with shitters who get buttmad over the tiniest things. you only run into actual functioning humans in tournaments where money is on the line

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>>55113427
>>55113506
You have no idea how salty fuckers got over me testing UW Parfait on Xmage. One guy on Burn stands out, he wouldn't concede to RIP+Energy Field game one when he had literal zero outs and just sat there and talked shit about how bad my deck was. I Rip+Helm'd him out turn 2 the next game, the salt was unbelievable. Had another guy on LED Dredge get super butthurt over getting turn 1 RIP'd twice in a row.

So is Teferi's Protection actually legacy viable or are "investors" just doing a buyout?

>>55113863
Main deck RiPs and DRShamans are main reason why I don't run LED main that much anymore and instead play firestorms and abrupt decays.

>>55114504
How often were you running into main deck RIP? The only decks I've even seen have them are off the wall brews and rouge decks.

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what's the cheapest, viable deck that runs her?

and I mean cheap as in around $1,000

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i have been hyped to post in legacy general all day that i played my first event and went 3-0-1 on tin fins. the draws were phenomenal. in nine games i pulled five turn one kills, often with protection. it was kind of a bummer because i didn't get to play that much magic but also sick because i got a bunch of store credit

>>55115203
D&T with ghost quarters instead of ports and UW Spiritblade without Tundra's clock in at ~$1k.

>>55115215
Nice anon! My night wasn't so good with UW Parfait, I went 2-2 beating Moggcatcher and Dredge, losing a close games to UR Delver, and getting curb stomped by Infect. I'm thinking I need to adjust my sideboard to help more against the tempo type decks, they were very hard matchups.

Goyf seems to be pretty unplayable in legacy right now due to Push and Decay. I've been trying out Mandrills and they have been doing a lot of work.

>>55115571
i played against ANT, br reanimator, and two uwx stoneblade decks. i was told that the meta at the shop usually has more lands and i know one of the players likes to play aggro loam and MUD so i think i may go up to 3 serenity

I come from /KDM/ to check out your thread's art, and I love it it all but goddamn you guys speak a different language.

Fwiw you all sound smart af

I don't play legacy so maybe this is a dumb question. Any chance the Old Growth Dryad has a place in Nic Fit?

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How's Miracles now without top?
Post list if you have, I'm curious to see what you guys run now

Hw is xmage?
Does it have a good pauper community?
Should I strem pauper mtgo?

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>>55117230
Man, I feel bad for you poorfags. You should just get a better job and play the best formats the game has to offer: Legacy and Vintage. Enjoy your 70%+ aggro format, I'd think not playing magic was better than playing a format this shitty. In the mean time here's a picture of a Black Lotus to help motivate you to stop being such absolute plebs.

>>55117260
This stopped being funny a few posts ago.

>>55117260
I have money bud, I just know economy better than to spend absurds amounts on non physical goods that to boot are fucking cardbard physically and hold no inherent value.

Doesnt stop me from slowly finishing bazaar dredge.

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>>55117260

>>55116785
It's currently a split between maindeck Entreat and maindeck Mentor, with Mentor putting up better results.

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>>55117354
It's still pretty funny to me mate.

>>55117376
>I just know economy better
Well do tell me what else you know better, because it certainly isn't English.

>non physical goods
>cardbard
It's cute, your trying to sounds smart, but it took you literally less than a sentence to contradict yourself. The definition is of a non-physical good is: "An intangible good (also known as a non-physical good) is a good that does not have a physical nature". Sorry, with the exception of having a collection on MTGO, your cards ARE physical goods.

>hold no inherent value
This is Econ 101 shit, but NOTHING has "inherent value", the only value something has is what others are will to pay for it. If everyone's starving nobody gives a shit how much gold (or virtually anything else) you offer them for their loaf of bread.

>>55117593
t. Sub 90 IQ retard known as Rud

Yo parfait bros do you guys run Karakas on your decks? I have 1 extra that is not in any of the decks and was wondering if it would be any use.

>>55111413
>What's your favorite nonsense combo deck?
Using Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to enable Darien, King of Kjeldor by means of Karma.

Thinking about putting together fetchless Burn, would running 1-2 Forgotten Caves be worth it?

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>>55117260
>>55117376
>>55117593
>>55117646
Seriously guys, WTF. This thread was chill as fuck when I went to bed.

Anyways, since we don't have a MTG: Vintage General, what do you guys think about the new Vintage restrictions? Do you agree with the Thorn/Mentor restrictions? Do you think Shops will survive as a competitive archetype now that almost all of it's lock pieces are restricted? What's going to take the place of the UWR Mentor decks? Is Storm going to be overpowered due to the Yawgmoth's Bargain unrestriction and its natural predator taking another nerf? I'm actually really excited to play/brew, Vintage has been basically a two deck format for a while and now it's looking more wide open than it has in a long time.

>>55117724
I don't personally, but I don't see any reason why a singleton Karakas would be an issue. The manabase in my UW build currently is:
4x Flooded Strand
3x City of Traitors
3x Island
9x Plains

The CoT's have been consistent over performers allowing me to power out 4 drops fast or once in a blue moon get silly turn 2 RIP+Helm kills. It's hard to give up the speed of the CoT's, but if Reanimator/Sneak and Show are a big thing in your meta I could see Karakas being very good as a 1-2x as an additional hedge against them with very little downside in other matchups.

>>55117896
My friend is using Crystal Veins as budget CoT.

>>55117646
t. Butthurt poorfag.

>>55117795
Don't. Just run mountains, they won't get hit by wasteland or be waste of space, because they come in play untapped.

>>55117724
Karakas is good, it shouldn't be an issue, especially because you are going through your deck relatively fast. In the best case scenario it wins you the play and at worst gets hit by wasteland, which is not an issue in parfait I believe.

>>55117806
>Seriously guys, WTF. This thread was chill as fuck when I went to bed.

Looking at the board, I think it's just all the shitposters are riled up due to spoiler season, and they're posting in any Magic-related thread.

>>55117795
I'd play Barbarian Ring over Forgotten Cave. The Ring might do you some damage, but can also be cashed out later as a shock. Being slowed down a turn by the cave coming into play tapped would really hurt Burn.

>>55116719
Not really. A one mana 3/3 isnt that impressive anymore with gurmag anglers and D&Ts running around. Even if it were just a g: 3/3 it would be better off as a nimble mongoose. If you ramp as nic fit you want to play fatties like rhino, if you dont ramp youd rather not ramp your opponent. This dryad will find a place somewhere, maybe 8 land stompy.

>>55118985
Nic Fit is better off playing DRS and Veteran explorers, it just doesn't need 1 mana 3/3, when it can go into 6+ mana in turn 3.

>>55119034
Well yeah. Im just pointing out that even if it were the best 3/3 for g it wouldnt be what you want. Honestly Id rather recurring nightmare a parade of rhinos, but I sold off nic fit when top was banned.

>>55115215
Wombo Combo 4 lyfe. I top8'd a 1k this weekend. Bombed out of first round of top 8 though.

>>55119257
Report, now.

>>55119368
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/topless-doomsday/
About 44 people turned out. 6 rounds, cut to Top 8.

Note: I've added roughly how I boarded and a bit about why(from memory/based on how I think I'd do it since I didn't take notes on that).

Round 1 vs GR Sneak Attack ----------------------------
It looked like a normal Mono-R Sneak list, just with a green splash. Not sure what for.

G1 I play Badlands and Duress away one of their 2 Chalices. They don't have acceleration so they just play mountain for turn and keep the chalice in hand. I Therapy it and win a turn later with a basic pile. After the match I asked why they held back the chalice and they said they thought I was on BR Reanimator based on the Badlands so chalice on 0 was relatively weak.

+2 Echoing Truth, +1 Consign//Oblivion, +1 IoK
-4 Therapy
I don't like Therapy post-board because they have so many different things to hit that it's almost useless blind. I'd rather have bounce and duresses. Sure sometimes you'll duress and see double Trini or triple chalice, but you could also Therapy and name Chalice and hit and they'll still have double Trini and a blood moon or whatever.

G2 they land a Chalice on 1. I Burning Wish for By Force on my turn 2. On their turn 3 they hardcast Inferno Titan. I destroy the Chalice but Wish was my only business and I don't win before I die to the Titan.

G3 they mull to 5. I Duress and see Chalice and Trinisphere, Inferno Titan and 2 Mountains. I take the Chalice and hope to kill before the 3Ball comes down. I win on turn 3 with nearly the same pile as g1.

>>55119471
Round 2 vs 4C Loam-----------------------------------
G1 They have liliana but no real threats. I have an anemic hand, but I manage to field 3 black sources and hardcast Doomsday with an LED on board to their Lili with 5 loyalty. I intend to build this pile: [Probe, AoI, LED LabMan, Probe] which wins through Lili ultimate if they don't draw something to kill my LED or LabMan. Unfortunately I bungle the pile (my only misbuilt pile all day) and swap the LED and first Probe. I scoop.

+2 Echoing Truth, +1 IoK
-2 Therapy, -1 Duress
Similar reasons to the previous match. They have a diversity of hate athough some is creatures, so I diversify my anti-hate. Not totally sure about the numbers here.

G2 I fire off Empty the Warrens for 10 gobs on t2 or 3 and it gets there, barely.

G3 I mull to 5. I fetch around their Wasteland. They land Lili on t3. Around turn 5 I somehow scrape together a kill with exactly enough storm. Don't have notes but I think it involved Brainstorming to put a Wish back into my deck after Doomsday.

>>55119483

Round 3 vs Dark Depths----------------------------
G1 they're on the play and start Swamp, Petal, Petal and I think I'm just dead but they play Sylvan Library and pass. My hand is a little slow. I fetch basics and cantrip. They brick pretty hard off library. On my turn I Brainstorm into something ridiculous and make about a jillion Drills (really only like 15).

+2 Echoing Truth, +1 IoK
-2 Duress, -1 Therapy
I think you need at least 1 ETruth in just for the chance at bouncing Marit Lage or random permanent based hate they might bring in. Your targeted discard is just ok against them because it can't hit lands, so I diversify my options a bit. Looking at lists online though, many are playing mindbreak trap in the board. Perhaps -2 Therapy, -1 Duress would be safer.

G2 was probably my favorite of the day. My draws are a bit trashy and they get the combo together quickly. Staring down Marit Lage, I cantrip a couple times and set up a Wish on top with Echoing Truth Below it. Double LED, Probe into the wish and Tendrils for only 9 copies, leaving my opponent at 2. Take one hit from the eldritch horror, then bounce it. Opponent got a little salty about my "topdecks" but didn't realize i'd set it up that way. At this point we'd both expended quite a few resources and are topdecking. I am able to set up a pass-the-turn pile a couple turns later and kill with a storm count of 4.

>>55119500

Round 4 vs Czech Pile/4c Control------------------------------
G1 I mull to 5 and manage to get there since my opponent's draws weren't great. No notes on my pile but I think it was a Lab Man kill because I couldn't get enough storm.

+2 Defense Grid, +1 IoK
-1 Wish, -1 Petal, -1 Preordain
You're planning to play a longer game so cutting a little action is fine. When you cut a wish, Empties aren't as likely so cutting a petal is good. If you wanted to keep the Wish in you could cut another preordain instead. That might even be better.

G2 they mull to 5 and I'm pretty pleased but try not to show it. However, I can't for the life of me find a Doomsday or Wish to go with my Ritual, LED, and Probe. They Hymn me on t2 or 3, Snap-Hymn on turn 4 or 5, and start attacking/DRS-ing. They get me pretty low, and I wish for and cast Massacre to try to buy time. They rip Leovold and I die anyway.

G3 I resolve Defense Grid but again I can't find a business spell for too long and die to like 3 DRS's.

>>55119517
Round 5 vs Goblins---------------------------------
I'm playing against a guy who plays at my LGS and I feel a little bad about having to dreamcrush someone I know but what can you do. They are a very good goblins player so I know I have to be on my toes even though it's a fine matchup.

G1 I cantrip and cantrip and can't find action and die to the goblin horde. I am concerned about my chances at top8 at this point.

-3 Duress
+2 ETruth, +1 IoK
Duress is Kind of Bad I think. IoK can hit a creature in a pinch. I assume they're going to have some kind of permanent-based disruption so the ETruth's come in. Worst case scenario they reset Aether Vial. Mindbreak Trap is a concern but if you therapy the turn you go off, that's really the only thing relevant to name so you generally won't miss. I suppose they could have Pyroblast but I've never had a goblins player bring it in against me. It's a nonbo with the chalices they probably bring in.

G2 I mull to 5 but my opponent has no real interaction, just beats, and wasn't fast enough. On the last possible turn I get my shit together and give em the drills.

G3 they mull to 5 and keep something like double Wasteland, double Vial, Lackey. Not bad for 5 I guess Potential quite good. The game ends on t3 or 4 with me having only basics and him not drawing real disruption.

Round 6 vs Intentional Draw--------------------
It's a clean cut to top8 so we ID.

>>55119534
Quarterfinals vs Omni Sneak---------------------
I sit down and start shit-talking myself a bit, telling my opponent about my curse of never being able to get past the first round of Top8, no matter the format. I jokingly wish them luck in the rest of top8.

G1 I summarily smoke them. I Duress a FoW, then another, and then give them the Drills on t3. I enthusiastically promise them the wheels will come off soon.

+2 Defense Grid, +1 IoK
-1 Preordain, -2 Petal
Goblins aren't really part of the plan here so petals can come out but I like to keep in all the wishes just to have business density. Cutting one cantrip is acceptable in most matchups if you feel you need the slot, so a preordain goes away. IoK maybe isn't the best but post-board they'll have extra countermagic so even though it can't hit most of their combo pieces I feel it's worth the slot. Defense grid is obvious. Putting it in off SnT to their Griselbrand feels great (even if you still lose).

G2 I probe and see spell pierce and a turn 2 Show and Tell into Griselbrand. I therapy and they pierce it. They SnT in Griselbrand, I drop in Defense Grid. They tank for a bit and pass without attacking. I don't rip the ritual I need, and on their turn they draw 14, SnT in Omniscience, Cunning Wish for Intuition for 3x Emrakul and I scoop it up.

G3 I pull the countermagic from their hand leaving them with a few fatties. I cantrip and have a kill set up for next turn, I think turn 3 or 4. After fetching and probing I am at 15. On their turn, they rip Sneak Attack and sneak in Emmy to hit me for exactsies.

FINAL STATS-------------
Match Record: 4-2
Game Record: 10-7
Doomsday+Tendrils Kills: 8
Lab Man Kills: 1
ETW Kills: 1
Natural Tendrils Kills: 0
Telemin Kills: 0
Between Round Bathroom Breaks: 4

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>>55119549
>I Duress a FoW
gods work anon.

Post parfait lists please

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>>55121653
Pic related. I stole the image from an anon who posted here, so I can take no credit for it.
However, it's fair to say it's probably one of the best versions of Parfait right now.

Bumperooney

>playing xmage
>join a game
>free mulligans
>other person is playing combo
>they mulligan till they get a hand they can turn one with
rofl

Saw the new torpor orb creature. Is there a way to resurrect stiflenought? Somekind of no etb trigger postmortem lunge reanimation fling shit

>>55119257
nice reports
your games were a lot more interesting than mine

>>55117724
Karakas is pretty good in mono-white builds, but if you're playing Wr you should go all basics for Charbelcher, and if you're UW something like this is probably better >>55117896.

>>55125236
>more interesting games
I think that's why it's held my interest longer than any other weird combo deck I've tried. I feel like I earn more of my wins than I do with other decks. That's probably a mix of it being complicated and bad. Most of my piles this time weren't too complicated though. I think the loss of top made the easy piles easier and the hard piles harder, and I didn't really have to build any hard piles this weekend. The only pile I bungled was a pretty standard pass-the-turn pile and it was just cause I wasn't paying enough attention.

where can i get proxies of decent quality? printing paper just feels real ghetto, desu

>>55117896
How are you playing Rip and helm on t2 with CoT?

>>55125644
Disregard this I'm retarded and forgot about Mox.

>>55122082
> sort of want to sell everything to build a parfait deck
> and i have no one to play legacy with

does anyone else know this feel

>>55125644
Turn 1: Mox, CoT, RIP
Turn 2: CoT, Helm

>>55125624
I know somebody's going to give me shit over this, but go check out the BootlegMtg subreddit. Its an entire group of people discussing proxies, where to buy, who has the best, and anything else you might want to know. [Spoiler]I have aged and played the shit out of some double sleeved Villa Zheng proxies, never been called out.[/spoiler]

>>55126134
thanks, but proxies are legal at my store. so i'll be fine anyway

>>55115203
My 60 is around $1200 last I checked, the sideboard is kinda shit in that list and not exactly what I'm running now, but it's a good jumping off point. My UW goes a little bit of a different direction than most. It's honestly not optimal but it's fun especially in the heavy combo meta where I am:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Spell Queller
3 Mausoleum Wanderer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Chill
1 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pride of the Clouds
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

>>55125345

Good show!

>>55111413

There is only one answer. Poops All Spells.

>>55124987
>free mulligans
>no game 2
>no time limit
Like, why not just goldfish it?

Weird question, but does anyone know what song SCG uses in their finals intro?

I noticed an RTNews video about the hurricane in texas used it as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rCP_TUA4nA

Can I get opinions on this UW parfait deck? Is there an argument to run path over swords because of land tax? Card suggestions? I feel like I should pack another wincon in the side desu.

Main board:
4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
2 Detention Sphere
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Mox Diamond
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Rest in Peace
3 Energy Field
1 Back to Basics
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
11 Plains
1 Web of Inertia
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Orim's Chant
1 Luminarch Ascension

Sideboard:
1 Back to Basics
2 Pithing Needle
3 Meddling Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Nevermore
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mana Maze
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Runed Halo
2 Seal of Cleansing

>>55125843
>build budget, everything but the lands, death and taxes
>noone around here plays legacy
>noone likes to play against the deck

Good thing I didn't buy rishadan ports.

>>55128547
Web of Inertia is mostly redundant with Energy Field. I wouldn't run a 4/3 RiP/Field split, I think 3/2 is better. Crutching on it too hard can lead to you getting blown out, and it's useless against decks like Storm. I would run something like Trinisphere or Solitary Confinement instead. Also, Humility is an absolute must play in the main, wrecks Reanimator, Show and Tell variants, DnT, Elves, and is strong against all the Delver and Control builds.

You could probably run Path if you cut the maindeck Back to Basis. BtB is weaker than Blood Moon anyway, because it's not a hard lock against decks that don't run basics, and it doesn't stop most land based combos.

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>>55111413
I just play a deck of all Plains. Everybody's happy- the opponent gets his deckbuilding validation, and I get to see my favorite Plains.

>>55128795
Man what a plain deck.

>>55128638
If you have no local scene, why would you build a paper deck?

>>55128908
Mainly for collection purposes but I have an lgs, most people there just don't have legacy decks. Once in a blue moon or at prereleases someone with a legacy deck shows up.

what should I build in a meta that's heavy on czech pile and DnT

>>55128954
Ah, I misread that one part, apologies.

>>55121653
Sure thing anon, here's the list I ran Monday night: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uw-parfait-4/

I'm wasn't really a fan of Ensnaring Bridge or Elspeth, so I'll probably cut them from the SB. Other than that the deck felt pretty good, I think I just got some harder matchups and little but of bad luck leaving me at 2-2 with it.

>>55128547
Seems like it's one the right track generally, but I would make a couple of cuts. I'd cut down to 2 Energy Field, the cards is either great of awful. Web of Inertia is basically a more expensive Energy Field, so I'd give it a trim. I'm not a huge fan of 4x Chant, I'd drop down to 3. If you have access to City of Traitors I'd swap 2-3x Plains for them, if not Crystal Veins are reasonable replacements. I'd also swap out Luminarch Ascension for Thopter Spy Network, Ascension is hard to get online and gets hit by Decay while TSN represents almost the same overall clock, draws cards, and is decay proof. I'd drop one Back to Basics, we are a toolbox based deck and it's one of those enchantments that wins you a game or is terribad. On the same line, there's very little harm in going up to 61 cards MB with this deck because of all the tutorable silver bullets and card selection, so I'd add Zuran Orb as card 61 to pad you life total and help enable Land Tax. Mana Maze is interesting/Spicy, I assume it's there to help with combo matchups?

So, the changes I would recommend:
-1x Energy Field, -1x Web of Inertia, -1x Orim's Chant, -1x Luminarch Ascension, -2/3x Plains
+1x Trinisphere, +1x Supreme Verdict, +1x Moat/Ghostly Prison, +1x TSN, +1 Zuran Orb, +2/3 CoT/Crystal Veins. For the SB, I'd trim -1x Back to Basics, +1 Council's Judgment

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What legacy deck would tupac play?

>>55129764
D&T definitely

>>55118985
Oh, what about D&T? It might be good with arbiter.

>Test new build of 12post on xmage
>EVERY SINGLE matchup is reanimator
Fuck this gay earth.

>>55117806
Just one more step to vintage becoming 60 card singleton.

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>>55130362
Is that the point where competitive Commander and Vintage merge?

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>>55130439
maybe? I see vintage as magic in its purest form. As broken as possible. Competitive commander seems just.........like a shit format.

>>55117806
There was no doubt about Mentor getting restricted, it's basically a 1 turn clock once it hits the board.

>>55117806
I'm curious to see whether Shops will go and bring back more control elements like Tangle Wire to replace Thorn, or if it opts for an even more aggressive style of play. It could also mean the Eldrazi Shops variant will become much more prominent instead.

>>55130580
Agreed, the question was more why is Shops taking a hit for mentor being overpowered? I'd have thought they would have let the dust settle after the Mentor restriction to evaluate if Shops was overpowered in the new post mentor meta before making the move to restrict Thorn.

>>55130640
>bring back more control elements like Tangle Wire
This is what I'm hoping will happen with shops, It'll get a bit slower, but still remain a valid archetype. I really want to see decks like Uba Stax become prominent again.

>>55130311
did some looking and I guess Leonin Arbiter is just a modern thing.

Just so y'all know, with the restriction of thorn control Shops is 100% dead, and now Mentor is likely the uncontested best deck

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>>55131140
>He doesn't know Mentor got restricted too
Kinda hard to build a Mentor deck when you only get one Mentor.

>>55117806
Here's how it shakes out. Ritual Storm is better, definitely the best Storm deck and probably #2 to Mentor. Bargain is still pretty unplayable.

Mentor is now the best deck (from being slightly worse than Shops). Losing 2 mentors is not a huge hit. Shops losing 3 thorns is a massive gain. The deck is now the best deck in the format.

Eldrazi was a tier 2 deck. It is now unplayable.

Shops now has exactly one viable build (from 3-4 before WotC decided they understood vintage). It's aggro shops with Precursor golem and tangle wire or bust.

Outcome and Oaths best matchup just took a huge hit while their worst matchup just got better. They get slightly worse.

>>55131217
Mentor is at its core UWR control. Mentor is a compact win condition. Now I would run one Mentor, one Chandra and one more of each Jace. The core of the deck is the same, it loses 2 win cons. Mentors strength was flexible answers and compact win cons. That's easily replaceable, and now that Shops is neutered the drawback of turboxerox decks is significantly reduced.

Have you played vintage?

>>55131249
How's a deck like this suit your fancy? I can't claim to know much about vintage but I have to wonder why it isn't playing Vault Key when it already has Tinker or Mindslaver with a Welder and infinite artifacts.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16431&d=301524&f=VI

>>55131288
I play vintage occasionally, I'm just thinking that now that mentor is restricted UWR mentor is basically the UWR control deck that existed back in 2015. Sure, it's got the Khans delve spell now, but so does every blue deck. I'm just skeptical of it being that overpowered now that it's premier threat is restricted in addition to its premier enabler (Gush) and it's going back to it's old, slower wincons.

>>55131353
It looks pretty suboptimal. Welder is pretty bad right now, and in that deck basically just bins Null Rod or loops Strixae I guess. Probe makes no sense in it. It looks like at the time it would just roll over to Mentor and be decent against Shops and good against Outcome. After the last round of restrictions I wouldn't be thrilled with it.

>>55131434
When I play Mentor, there are a lot of games you win through "slam Mentor, go ham". You win more games through drawing more cards and filtering to the right part of your deck. Since 2015 shops keeps getting worse and worse, and it's role was a predator to cantrip decks. I'd be stoked to run a turbo cantrip deck against one that's less likely to open with sphere, much less likely to have 2 spheres and way less likely to have 3 spheres. Losing mentor hurts, but not as much as losing thorn helps.

Pretty sure Vintage Mentor decks just go to running Young Pyro in the slots where the extra copies of mentor were anyway.

Now is the time for the return of GRIXIS THIEVES in Vintage

>>55131288
Part of mentor's strength was how fast it could turn the corner and win if needed. With only 1 fast threat that's not going to be an option.

>>55119549
Storm variants are truly the most patrician combo decks. Good report man.

>>55135177
>storm variants are truly the most patrician decks
Ftfy

Someone tell me why Mentor is restricted in Vintage??? Like what the fuck

>>55136879
Same reason why Miracles got banned in Legacy, tier S deck.

When will reanimator just stop? Im getting sick of this cancer.

>>55130640
I think you'll see both shops variants with the more aggro variant better against it's counterpart, but the control one better against the rest of the field.

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where are my nic-fit bros at?

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>>55136879
Haven't checked in on vintage for a bit but holy shit, big blue BTFO. Now what? 3x Young Pyro and 1x Mentor? Good fucking luck.

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>>55138568
Shhh just let it happen

>>55139298

I'm workin' on it. Still need Green Sun Zeniths.

>>55136879
For the last couple years there have been 2 Tier 1 decks in vintage, Shops and Mentor. People who occasionally play Vintage got upset that they kept losing to Mentor and Shops complained until they started restricting cards left and right to please the crowd. Each restriction made the format worse. This will be no different.

>>55139538
Big Blue is bad because Flusterstorm exists. Its a series of combo control decks that rely on narrow answers. Mentor was able to circumvent Pyroblast and Flusterstorm and also run more general answers. The answer to losing Mentor isn't to run bad cards, its more likely going to be to move towards a heavier planeswalker control deck. Grixis Mana Drain is still going to be bad, no matter how you build it.

>>55139192
How is control shops possible with 7 Spheres and a Chalice? You dont have enough lock pieces to get a hard lock out. Aggro shops will still be king, Stax just goes from tier 3 to tier unplayable.

>>55113187
could we have the LEDless list¿?

>>55136879

As of this writing, Shops is at 30% and Mentor is at 23% of the Vintage metagame according to MTGTop8. I'm not an expert, but it appears to me that Mentor decks are vulnerable to Shops, so that might explain why Mentor is only the second-most-played deck in the format. (For the sake of comparison, the second runner up is a tie between Dies-to-Null-Rod and Eldrazi, each at 7% format penetration.)

Why Mishra's Workshop isn't restricted while a boatload of things it busts in half are is beyond me, and though I don't like bans on principle, it's a bit ridiculous to have a deck consistently comprise 20–35% of the format over a decade with no real competition. Of course, Wizzerds's logical approach is to hammer the competition.

>>55138568

I think that's a matchup that people consider a lot worse than it really is, and I play a deck on which it preys pretty heavily. It's a bit samey, and a lot of decks have trouble fighting it with orthodox sideboarding plans, but I think there's plenty one can do to even the odds. Just crack it with four Leylines, or something, then switch back to something that makes more sense.

>>55139298

Haha, I'm actually working on a Nic Fit list right now. It's BUGgier than yours, but I'm hoping to get it into shape soon.

Out of curiosity, do you find that five duals is the baseline for the deck, or is it permissible to run fewer? I've only got singletons (except two Underground Seas), so I'm wondering whether you think I could do with singletons of Bayou and Trop.

>>55143125
Do you have a list?

I think you could make it work with just singetons of the duals (assuming you are running shamans and explorers).

>>55143072
Dies-to-Null-rod, aka Pyroblast Me Storm

>>55142316
Just take 4 LEDs out and fill with ichorids, careful study, breakthrough, and dread return/reanimate target.

>>55146386

Still don't see the appeal behind Paradoxical Storm versus TPS. Maybe that's the real reason it's "paradoxical."

>>55144434

I'm pretty much up shit creek at the moment; seems like everything I test turns to butts. My spiciest idea was to run 3–4x Delver of Secrets, but I felt like I couldn't meet the requisite number of creatures, instants/sorceries, blue cards, and on-color mana sources to make it function. I'm at a bit of a disadvantage for budgetary reasons, but I've been working with a core of 4x Vet, Brainstorm, Ponder, Baleful Strix, Therapy; 3x GSZ; 2x Deathrite, Deed, Decay, Thoughtseize; 1x Eldritch Evolution, Leovold, Scooze, and other targets/fatties; 20 lands with no Stronghold, Tower, or Arbor. Quad of Force is in the sideboard for now, along with two Mindbreak Traps because I can't find Flusterstorm for less than the price of certain duals. Do you have any experience with BUG lists? Should I pick up Pod and/or the sac/recursion lands?

>>55147794
Outcome has a good Shops matchup, but the real reason is that it's really easy to play compared to DPS

>>55148166
Play mana rocks, draw a shitload of cards, repeat. So easy a standard player can do it.

I kinda want to brew a NicFit deck that doesn't run any basics, runs hate and is called "poor spike's revenge".

Either that or play Pox.

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>>55149448
>Nicfit
>No Basic
Choose one.

>>55149504
Oh crud, I meant Nonbasics.

Could the Lair lands be useful in parfait? The land return can be used to activate tax and the returned lands can be tapped so dont lose mana that much.

>>55128547
Abeyance?

>>55151476
Or Kjeldoran outpost?

>>55147133
>>55142316
As a fellow Dredge player, I just want to warn you that removing LEDs slows down the deck a lot. It still works and maybe even better for a more grindy meta, but you'll lose out on any explosive plays.

>>55152566
It slows the deck one turn. Explosive LED is a christmas land and very, very dangerous in game 2 and 3. The biggest issue is not being able to race storm decks, but then again, cabal therapy is your best card, not LED.

I'm not advocating on playing without LEDs, but it really doesn't need them.

>>55151476
>Could the Lair lands be useful in parfait?
Yes, some use them.

>>55152266
Kjeldoran Outpost is pretty standard in Parfait decks, at least older ones. Just look up Parfait lists and you'll see a lot of Kjeldoran Outposts

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>>55153121
>>55152566
>>55147133

I've been interested in making an LEDless Dredge brew for my LGS's Legacy nights, and what do you guys think of Bearer of the Heavens as a Dread Return target?

>>55154379
Pretty bland, reanimator/SnT might win you with griselbrand beats, storm just doesn't care and DnT etc. has Stop for it. You rather play etb effects, that immediately do you good.

4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
1 Searing Blood
19 Snow-covered Mountain
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Flame Rift

SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Searing Blood

Yay/nay? I've been thinking about +2 Volcanic Fallout in the board, maybe -1 yard hate -1 Bridge. Also, how do you sideboard vs DNT, cut out Rifts or Price of Progress for interaction?

>>55155627
Rift is good against creature-light decks as a general rule. DnT can clock you so the effect is symmetrical. That being said, Price is really high variance. You probably have a keep in Game Rift

>>55119471
>>55119483
>>55119500
>>55119517
>>55119534
>>55119549

cool breakdown of some DDFT decisions, thanks!

>>55118858
> and at worst gets hit by wasteland

which potentially nets you another land tax trigger :^)

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What's with the sudden influx of Parfait players? Not that I'm complaining tho
Also, I know OR is better than BL, but I prefer the artwork of BL. Besides, I can't do the neat trick with O-ring anyway with my deck.

>>55156584
(^;

I'm looking at getting into Vintage through UR Delver, the harsh mentor/eidolon build. I keep wondering why no one is playing black vice in that deck, as it seems like a good way to bolt every turn. Any thoughts?

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>>55157375
>I keep wondering why no one is playing black vice in that deck, as it seems like a good way to bolt every turn.
Wew, your best case scenario is a quite a stretch. Sure Vise can deal a bunch of damage but most nonblue decks dump hand very fast and even against blue decks there's variance from counter wars which quickly empty hand and slow the game to a crawl.
Personally I would just play more blue cards in the slots. Blue cards are good.
You're welcome to try Vise, I'm curious to hear if it works out.

Then again, I'm not much of an authority since I currently play unironically jank like Cerebral Assassin with Hollow Ones and Bargain storm with Show and Tell.

>>55156651
>What's with the sudden influx of Parfait players?
Cheap decks that are also interactive are pretty rare in any format, so I could see the deck attracting lots of poorfags.

>>55158100
Right on the money, although I'll upgrade to UW Stoneblade or maybe Nu Miracles when I can get Tundras and shit.

t. Parfait Poorfag

>>55158020
I was fuguring on time twister and wheel of fortune anyway, can't punish them for casting if they don't cast right?

I see your point though, not like the old winter orb black vise combo is going to work in vintage with mixes everywhere.

>>55158100
For me scroll rack and land tax happen to be my favorite cards. Also the manabase is cheap so dont need to buy more duals.

>>55156651
Parfait looked like like lots of fun, who doesn't like drawing a million cards a turn? Then I realized i had pretty much all the pieces to build it. Its also a deck that lets me play my Moat MB.

I need a cheap powerless vintage deck that can win games and isn't dredge.

>>55161883
Kobold Clamp Storm
also define "cheap". Are we talking $100 or $5000? Both would be "cheap" by vintage standards.

>>55161922
I have or have access to basically any vintage relevant care except power and a couple other multi-hundred dollar cards like candelabra, time vault, imperial seal.

>>55162414
There's a Vintage version of Moggcatcher that runs no power, 4 Blood Moon, 4 Magus of the Moon, 4x Null Rod, 1x Chalice, and 1x 3ball to shit on the vintage manabases. No idea how good it is though.

>>55163139
Yeah I was thinking about some kind of goblin stompy type list, but I might mess around with the kobold clamp idea too.