What exactly happened to dwarves in the nineties?

>>55003679
Warhammer followed by Warcraft was a one-two punch to the cultural perception of Dwarves, and in many ways Orcs too.

>>55003703
/thread

>>55003703
well, FPBP

>>55003679

Overcompensation. Attempting to make up for lack of height by making them overly stocky.

>>55003679
Manlet overcompensation

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>>55003874
>>55003886

>>55003679
Clearly they discovered /fit/. Good for them, nice quads.

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>>55003703
Compared to what, LotR, or pig orcs?

>>55003925

Can't speak for the other guy, but I said nothing about manlets. I'm not trying to go there. I'm just saying that the producers of media in later periods felt the need to make dwarves appear more heroic and capable. Quite frankly if we look at things like >>55003846 Humans will BTFO dwarves every single time, and anyone with half a brain can tell that at first glance. They made the dwarves much stockier to compensate, because by giving them massive shoulders and arms they implied a greater than human strength which made them appear viable.

>>55003986
What do LotR orcs look like anyway?

>>55004016

We wanna go by book or by movies?

>>55003989
>They made the dwarves much stockier to compensate, because by giving them massive shoulders and arms they implied a greater than human strength which made them appear viable.
Is Popeye a dwarf?

>>55004016
Sharp teeth, black skin, nasty hair. This is at least one short description I can remember. They are also supposed to be smaller and weaker than humans.

>>55004037

If he is that's one tall dwarf.

>>55004016
>What do LotR orcs look like anyway?

Factory workers.

Short, bow-legged, gangly-limbed, with small beady eyes and grimy, oily skin.

>>55003989
i was pretty much on that line as well.
In order to differentiate them from half-lings they made them stocky as shite.

>>55004016
They resemble the most crude imaginings of the mongoloid, according to Tolkien himself. They're bandy-legged, ugly, filthy, short, and have sharp teeth.

>>55004232
> orcs are literally a mongoloid horde
really joggin my noggin

>>55004262
See >>55004100

They're not the foreign horde, they're the worst qualities of the Industrial Revolution setting out to destroy all that is good and pure in the world, aka the forest-shadowed legends of Anglo-Saxon England.

>>55004232
So much for "duh orcs are a raciss vision of negroes" I guess.

>>55004318
>they're the worst qualities of the Industrial Revolution setting out to destroy all that is good and pure in the world
I feel like Tolkien would consider Mordor to have won conclusively in the real world, at this point.

>>55003703
Movie Gimli too, though that was earlyv 2000s and capitalising on what came before

>>55004385

Gimli codified the idea of drunk quasi Scottish dwarves with axes, later media took that and ran with it while adding on demented shoulders.

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>>55004349

Tolkien despised industrialization as he witnessed first hand what a truly mechanized war can do to Humanity.

Tolkien was a sensitive man. He was a writer and linguist, someone who took great pride in learning the old Anglo-Saxon epics and undoubtedly spent long hours ruminating over the beautiful imagery of green forests and golden pasture, where men wore gleaming armor and songs were played by silver harp to crowds around large fires. That was what Tolkien saw as good, but what did he see in his world? Smoke rising from great brick towers against gray, dreary skies that spat acid rain on fierce, miserable faces that scuttled like rodents to work or beer, where a bit of green was luxury or worse, a thing to be plowed and overturned. Tolkien hated that. Tolkien despised that. He saw the sooty faces of factory workers and saw Orcs. He saw people carving into green hillsides and saw Isengard.

He went to war and saw firsthand how *efficient* the world had become at killing people, and that horrified him. He wanted to dream of a world that was in his stories, where the Brandywine feeds gently into the Shire, which was by all accounts his vision of an idyllic pastoral countryside; the people weren't hippies living in trees, but they certainly weren't Sharky ripping up the ground for smeary stones that belched death into the air.

If you want a vision of Tolkien's mind in the book, take a look at Faramir, who was effectively Tolkien's self-insert besides Beren. He was a sensitive man forced into war and discovered he hated the taste. He was like Eowyn in that, and when the pair met in the House of Healing they found themselves in love... And what did Faramir, and Eowyn wish to do? Become healers, to give up the sword and live in nature.

Tolkien couldn't ask for anything more.

>>55003679
3rd edition D&D changed them from just short to same mass as humans with a smaller height.

>>55004410
The change was happening before that. 3rd edition D&D 2000) shifted to the wide dwarves before Fellowship of the Rings in 2001.

I prefer the stocky dwarfs, I tend to portray them as a truly inhuman race. I try to exaggerate their Dwarf traits beyond even what the DnD books describe. Their physiology is different, their bodies are incredibly dense and heavy, their blood is magnetic, their skin is dry and dusty. They can endure savage environments with hardly any discomforts. I think their minds should be different too, they are patient and and perfectionist, with unshakable convictions and grudges, and a dwarf wouldn't dream of making something that wasn't perfectly master crafted. Their culture reflects this stoic solidarity, they harbor deep traditions but also deep resentments.

That way they are not just small humans, they are more fantastical.

>>55004349
Nature is still there and London's industrialization reversed into a service economy like most industrialized nations.
If he was alive he'd see Mordor in the Third World. Hell, if he went to China right now he'd essentially see Britain's conditions but somehow worse, while Britain essentially moved away from that.

>>55005081
>Nature is still there and London's industrialization reversed into a service economy like most industrialized nations.

Yeah, instead he'd see England's worship of the self and London being 40% white.

>>55004610
Dwarves have ADHD, and forging or battle is their hyperfocus.
Elves and half-elves have NPD.
Orcs and half-orcs have ASPD.
Tieflings have BPD.
Halflings have downs.
Gnomes are psychotic.
Dragonborn/Lizard people have lizard brains.
Humans have all of the above.

>>55005107
That's a different beast though.

>>55005107
To be fair, Anglo-Saxon ideals tend towards self-aggrandizement and mixing blood with foreigners in order to create peace.

Tolkien could well be fine with what you describe.

Widescreen became more popular, so they had to adjust their aspect ratio.

>>55004455
so Tolkien was a romantic?

>>55005395
Absolutely, in many ways he was a man born 200 years too late, though our culture is all the better for him because he created modern fantasy as we know it today.

>>55005418
He gave us a modern vessel for the values and stories of old, essentially?

>>55005454
Exactly, he turned what used to be the realm of fairy tales, folklore and old dusty tomes and made it a modern topic worthy of discussion and dissection. A story like The Hobbit, a tale of dragons and dwarves, had become something a father could read to their children beside the fireplace, rather than a short blurb of oral tradition told by a wizened old hag or an epic you'd be translating in University.

>>55005418
I don't know much about Tolkien's writings beyond the LotR but what you describe reminds me a lot of what John Carey described in his book about romanticism and the hatred that late 19th - early 20th century English intellectuals felt for the industrial world and the masses. The Shire is essentially a fantasized version of pre-industrial England.

>>55003874
>>55003886
>overcompensation
How is this "over", retards? Why would I want to play an exceptionally short character if he isn't hilariously thick and strong? It's not "overcompensation", it's "compensation". Autists.

>>55008110

There comes a point when the aesthetic has been exaggerated beyond reason. Over and above what should have been. When they are as wide as they are tall I think they've hit that point.

>>55004042
I think the black skin is for the strongest orcs. The most degenerate ones were even weaker, but also paler.

>>55004455
Quad doubles for ultimate truth and beautifully written. How inspiring to find writing and understanding of this caliber on this awful hellhole of a site.

10/10 would buy you a jar of ale at the Green Dragon.

>>55003679
It was the 90s, OP. Everyone was roiding up.

>>55003679
Gains.

>>55004455
that was a great read, thanks anon

t. a student majoring in british literature

>>55003679
They also got taller.

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>>55004455
That was a nice read.

Thanks anon.

>>55003986
Pig orcs were a shitty translation of dnd in japanese.

>>55005107
You worship something arbitrary as your skin color, yet think it's not self worship?

They got better. No one wants to play David the Gnome

>>55005081
Err, the UK still has horrid air quality and polution. Certainly the worst of West Europe. Wouldn't be surprised if it is on par or worse than fucking East Europe.

>>55004455

Thank you.

>>55017568
Suqishem the boy is cute.

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>>55018126
>Certainly the worst of West Europe
Who's ass did you pull this bullshit from?

Britain is in the top 10 lowest in Europe for urban air pollution, and easily beats Germany, Italy and Belgium, to name but a few. Eastern Europe is far far worse, with Bosnia-Herz approaching China levels of awful

http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/255336/1/9789241565486-eng.pdf?ua=1
That's a WHO report from this year, just [ctrl+f] "air pollution", the tables start around 12 or 13

>>55018126
Nigga what? There is no industry in the UK to spit out pollution and most of our power plants are gas

>>55005345
The anglos saxon ideal is individuality among community something common in many European circles but quite rare beyond

>>55018410
>2017
>Expecting anyone to care about facts and evidence

>>55003679
Well apparently they went to the gym and got swole.

>>55018410
>>55018431
Brehs, that's just some Euro asshurt that he's going to lose our giant money spigot in a few years. He doesn't really care about the truth, he just hates the British.

>>55018769
>giant money spigot
>Hey guys, we let this stock trade here, which could be a massive gold mine, go pretty much unregulated because we want to keep the piddly secondary profits from it to finance pajeets raping our children

>>55018852
DISCONNECTED
Enjoy your three euros of annual national profit from salami sales, Esteban.

>>55018879
kek
delusional britcucks are hilarious.

>>55005418
>all the better
>generic fantasy bullshit that killed off all concepts of fantasy as being the fantastical

>>55004455
thank you!

>>55018907
No one's shifting their businesses, indeed Deutsche Bank signed a long lease for their largest office. In London. bigger than any other office they own and with more staff.

>>55005107
Surely thinking your skin colour makes you better is worship of self?

>55019108
u wot.

>>55005418
Tolkien literally killed fantasy though.

>>55003679
THICC

>>55019208
Here's your (You)

>>55019255
Thanks, I'll cherish it.

>>55004455
booooo

>>55019301
Damn it anon.

>>55019198
Moorcockfags have entered the thread. Better just ignore them

>>55004455
All those feels, man. I never asked for this.
Also those doubles...

>>55018852
>doubts the giant flow of bongdollars
Hey fagmachine (or should that be El Fagmaquín?), the UK is the second biggest net contributor to the EU after Germany, DESPITE the rebate. There's no question that's why the Rump 27 are pissy, the loss of the sweet sweet cash for the French to fuck away on nothingprojects. That and this stymies Poland and Romania's colonization plan.

>>55008287

>beyond reason

The stockiness of dwarves is exactly for a reason. They can't be the immensely strong warriors - much stronger than humans on average, as they're often portrayed - if they're not packing those muscles and dense bones. Dwarves with their short stature couldn't be - not convincingly so - naturally strong, without being as they've been made out in the last 20 years.

The lithe dwarves of the past are silly, and kinda cute. But modern dwarves, while short, weigh more than you and can rip the spine off your back with their bare hands. If they're so strong, they better fucking look like it too. And that's what has been done because it's the only way for it to make sense.

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These guys looked fine if you painted them right.

>>55004349
Let's talk about what really matters: The Fellowship and I believe also the Hobbit feature coffee in the Shire. Where does it come from? I assume it would have to be Harad, considering the climate, but the Haradrim are pretty solidly opposed to the free peoples.

>>55004455
>55
>00
>44
>55
The quad dubs speaks truth, nice story anon.

>>55021065
I would argue for narrative "drift". We don't have books that definitively say what really happened, for a given value of really happened since it is after all fiction; we have the story that a bunch of hobbits wrote and god knows how many people have edited throughout the ages, culminating in Tolkien himself "translating" it into English.

My guess is that Shire anachronisms (of which coffee is only one of them), are just that, anachronisms, and that Bilbo didn't "really" drink coffee, any more than he knew what a locomotive was or what gunpowder smelled like.

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>>55004455
>checked
sounds like a faggot.

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>>55017868
You sure about that?

>>55003874
I always figured that was to make them distinct from halflings and gnomes.

>>55008110
t. manlet

>>55020162
>But modern dwarves, while short, weigh more than you and can rip the spine off your back with their bare hands.
They're effectively as strong as men retard.

>>55020162
What's funny is the Silmarillion describes the dwarves as strong, hardy, resistant to fire and evil, as well as the greatest warriors in Middle-earth.

Know-it-all fags itt don't realize dwarves were never intended to be skinny.

>>55022152

Nope. Most material outright has dwarves being stronger.

>>55022168
>the greatest warriors in Middle-earth.
I thought that was elves in the Silmarillion? Or do they count as external?

>>55022168
>as well as the greatest warriors in Middle-earth.
The earlier stuff in the sentence is right, but this part? Hell no. I mean fuck, those dwarves that steal the Nauglamir/Silmaril get beaten up by a bunch of pansy Ossiriand elves. The dwarves never produce figures like a Beren or a Turin, let alone someone like Fingolfin.

They have their moment in the fifth battle, but that's about it for Silmarillion dwarvish valor. They're implied to be substantially weaker than men, let alone elves.

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>>55018002
>No one wants to play David the Gnome

>>55022121
>poster implies he wouldn't want to play a short person that isn't ridiculously strong to compensate for his literal shortcoming
>LE MANLET XDXDXDXDXDXDXD
Do you put any thought into this at all? How low is your IQ? Did you just want to use a stale meme? A "manlet" wouldn't want to acknowledge a very short height without a compesnation as a negative aspect, you fucking retard.

>>55022274
I'm just repeating what's in the Silmarillion. Go read it again. FYI, Beren would've been killed by a dwarf king if the dwarf didn't trip over a root.

>>55022308
t. manlet

>>55022320
>I'm just repeating what's in the Silmarillion
No, you're editorializing. Here's what it actually says

>Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the Dwarves of Belegost, and thus they won renown. For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and those stood them in good stead against the dragons. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage Glaurung turned and strck down Azaghal, Lord of Belegost, and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghal drove a knife into his belly, and so wounded him that he fled the field, and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him. Then the Dwarves raised up the body of Azaghal and bore it away; and with slow steps they walked behind singing a dirvge in deep voices, as it were a funeral pomp in their country, and gave heed no more to their foes; and none dared to stay them.
There is nothing in there that says they were the greatest warriors in Middle-Earth, just that they were resistant to fire. It's not even the first time Glaurung was driven away, Fingon does the same feat.

>FYI, Beren would've been killed by a dwarf king if the dwarf didn't trip over a root.
FYI, if you're counting the later Beren and Luthien poems as canon, Beren fucking beats up Sauron, which again puts him way better not only than individual dwarves, but probably the entire fucking dwarven race.

>>55022274
They got into an suprise attack by ents.

>>55022320
Not part of the sil. There its just been "a couple of elves and the ents laid a trap a fucked them up."
I love the Tolkien dorfs but let's not add stuff please.

Dorfs are still based as fuck. When everyone shat their garments because of the first dragons the dorfs did not. Instead they kept formation a their armor withstood the flames. Only did they fall back once their king got crushed under Glaurung. As they carried him off the field nothing dared to stand in their way.
In a time when Balorgs were leading armies that's quite the feat.

>>55022492
>They got into an suprise attack by ents.
Not in the latest version, the "Extract from the lost tale of the Nauglafring"

>>55022431
Not the excerpt that I was referencing. Pay close attention to the creation of the dwarves by Aulë and you'll find what I'm talking about.

>>55022197
I see them only with + CON, not + STR.

>>55022601
You know, in civilized circles, it's the norm to cite the shit that you're claiming instead of hoping the other guy who says you're full of shit will find it.

By the way, you're full of shit.

>Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aule made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not forever.

That's the closest you get, and it's a far cry from "They are the greatest warriors in Middle-Earth", which is again, just false.

>>55022431
>beating up Sauron
That puts him also above all elves.

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>>55022168
>as well as the greatest warriors in Middle-earth
But that's outright wrong, you retard.

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>>55004455

>>55022710
How long until some fag posts it on reddit?

>>55022741
Why should you care what the people on another site do?

>>55003703
I thought it was misinterpreting LotR just like so many others.

>>55022741
It's already too late.

>>55022678

reeee tolkiengateway has bettayed me

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>>55004455

>>55003679
One of these days I go full Narnia and have dwarfs whose native weapon is the bow. Maybe those lop-sided Japanese horse longbows to they are not so limited by their height in getting a crazy powerful draw.

>>55022308
Look, when /pol/ shits the board, they have like eighteen variations of racism and dictator-worship they can go for. When /k/ shits things up, they can complain about guns and weapons like they've actually seen anything not made by Nerf. But /fit/ only has one meme; they gotta do what they gotta do.

>>55003679
Judging by the picture, an abundance of sugary soft drinks.

>>55023179
I'm honestly surprised about /fit/ going for manlets before fatasses. One would think they would hate the fatso that doesn't try to get swole rather than the manlet that tries to make himself look better.

>>55023253
Like pretty much all of 4chan at this point, it's self-parody taken so far that nobody remembers it's parody.

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>>55004100
Sounds familiar

>>55023253
That's because half of /fit/ are fatasses who say "I will start tomorow" since 1 years.

>>55003679
Probably to differenciate them more from gnome, halflings,hobbit and other vertically challenged race.

>>55023253
They have a dedicated thread for fat logic/excuse hate 24/7.

>>55019108
At the time, though, it was completely different from everything that had come before. It's only "generic" now because it's what the best known stuff is based upon.

I like the dwarves as portrayed in this comic series, and I think the art is really good. Stories can be a little hit and miss, but the world feels fleshed out and a lot of them at least have emotional impact.

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Dwarves

>>55021065
The Shire also has tea without a China, tobacco without an America, and fireworks without another China. Those things aren't there because of realistic trade routes, they're there because the Shire is an image of pre-WWI rural England. It's an idyll which exactly resemebles every other idyll, your question is like asking how come Mr. Toad in The Wind in the Willows has a human-like house when all the others have essentially animal houses.

>>55021065
Technically you can make imitation coffee with wheat berries.

>>55023420
I loved those comics and the way they made dwarven society to work like. Specially the second one.

>>55022168
>the Silmarillion describes the dwarves as
>strong, hardy,
This doesn't require them to be as large as they are tall. Being stockier than most men is enough. They are also described as having great endurance, which is something unrelated to muscle mass.
Having denser muscles and bones, with their tendons forming more efficient levels with their bones can account for most of their strenght, and if we consider their endurance they obviously have an exceptional metabolid system and cardiovascular system.
If you have them having a physiology that enables them to perform at close to 100% output for hours on end, plus denser and more efficient muscles that would be enough to account for them beig far stronger than men without having them be ridiculously stocky.

>resistant to fire
true
>and evil
not quite.
They were just so singlemindedly obsessed with minerals that even turning them evil wouldn't change their desires, and they were so strongwilled that you couldn't bend to your power.
They could become evil, but their evil manifested differently than in other races.

>as well as the greatest warriors in Middle-earth.

that is just false

>>55022741
Where would someone post it?

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>>55023420
This is some quality content, anon. Thanks a bunch.

>>55023450
I do know that the knowledge of potatoes is explained away as a dwarf crop which they stubbornly guard from the elves, that the hobbits know of but probably rarely get to eat. Kind of like dwarven lembas wafers, only being a this mystical ambrosia wafer it's a fucking potato.

>>55024969
You gotta wonder how they keep the elves from finding out, if those little blabbermouths know about it.

you guys know that the greatest elf is not fingolfin, its feanor(tolkien himself admited it)

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>>55003925
What differentiates being a manlet and just being short?

>>55028874
If they're short and I don't want to fuck them, they're a manlet.

>>55004455
fag

>>55023286
What's that quote about Englishmen pretending not to be Celts? Something about pretending he doesn't want to kill his neighbour & defecate on his lawn or what-have-you?