MtG Lore, Story, and Interpretation

>>54903420
>Mechanically black KILLS and red blows up, but blue and white and green are just as fucked up. White locks people away for ever, sometimes not even bothering to put them in another dimension, and blue wipes things from existence. Most bounce spells don't seem to depict just summoned creatures getting wiped away.
You forgot green
>Hurricanes
>Monster attacks
>Destroyed by sentient vegetation
>Mutated into a beast

>>54903478
But a guy used black magic and HE'S sooooooo much worse.

Yeah, green is fucking brutal.

>>54903478
>>54903478
If we're talking strictly about removal green hss the coolest one into forcing an impromtu fight club between two creatures

1. They'll do it again if they think it will sell more cards. Only takes the right person hearing someone say they'de love a good cross species tragic love story.

2. Every color has good and bad aspects.
Black is difficult to spot the good aspects, but it is there.
It is the magic of entrophy... It's what allows things to evolve and change, because it is the death and the rot that leads to rebirth. It is the force that forces innovation to survive.
It is the magic of self interest. It is magic that encourages one to find a way to come out ahead no matter the costs.
It is magic of unlife and spirit. Resources that while unnatural, has many uses.

At face value, bad things, but in the right hands, forces for good.

They could produce a mage who eases those in pain on to their final rest.
A witch who protects witnesses to crimes by warding them in auras of fear that turn away those who would harm them.
A seer who consults the dead to find out who committed a crime. And gets paid well for the info.

>>54905027
>They'll do it again if they think it will sell more cards. Only takes the right person hearing someone say they'de love a good cross species tragic love story.
As cool as it would be to have a set/block based on a love story, I don't see it happening. Crossing a Romeo and Juliet story with, say, a smuggling story or a WW1-esk treaty war could make for a neat narrative, or at least one unique to Magic.

>elf and ratfolk fall in love, even though the tree and big people hate each other
>elf gets caught up in underhanded work in order to obtain a future for them both
>shit goes south because of a mistake, and it either sparks a series of conflicts with various nations, or triggers a pursuit of the criminals across the plane (or both)
>rat meanwhile is a key figure in their fraction and regularly makes key decisions to track down the elf's party, or undermines their faction so the elf can escape and that results in an unfavorable turn in the war for the rats
>guilt and stress for everyone

Stop trying to push "oh my god, white can be evil, guys."

Roughly half of the sets we've had recently have featured white villains, perhaps more than we've had black villains even.

>>54905586
I wasn't. Just find it funny how the other colors tend to look down on black in basically every situation when every color magic is just at good at murder (lore wise). Specifically talking about the colors' spells and existence of mana, not just characters. Hell, Serra and a lot of Dominaria angels find black mana itself repulsive.

>>54903420
Bounce does not wipe things from existence. If it did, you would not get them back. At best it moves them somewhere else. I don't know why you'd make something like that up when one of blue's primary weapons is mind control. And you go with "white locks people up!" and not motherfucking Wrath of God? Really? One printing even has a Sorin quote on the subject.

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>>54905586
Not just recent sets. There were white villains as far back as The Dark and Fallen Empires what with the Church of Tal's witch hunters in Terisiare and the Farrelite cultists in Sarpadia.

>>54905776
This is some baby's first moral relativism shit.

White's revulsion to black isn't some hippy "oh no someone died" crap. White's revulsion to black is about black's selfishness. White isn't afraid to kill people - hell, white isn't afraid to kill ALL the people. Black kills people for personal gain, that's the problem.

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>>54905805
>Now we will both dwell in oblivion.
That sounds like "just moving". Oblivion sounds pretty dead to me. Bounce spells bounce creatures that were summoned, and cover nonsummoned creatures in dangerous aether. Mages "bounce" a bunch of dragon engines in Brothers War and those things didn't just get sent home.

Also yeah white gets wrath-effects, but some would argue an eternity in the void (most exile spells), or as a "living statue" might be worse (see Arrest). Shit's fucked up.

>>54905898
You see baby's first moral relativism, I see blatant hypocrisy.
>eternal torment for The Greater Good is better than killing for selfish reasons

>>54906029
MtG is super inconsistent about the in-world mechanics of its magic, so I'm sure you can find something that justifies it. Just like you can find a million different supported models of what memory is, what spells are, and how summoning works. That doesn't change what bounce magic is meant to represent.

>>54906230
You're not doing much to contradict the "baby's first moral relativism" impression.

>>54905776
Every color hsd to be capable killing things from a gameplay perspective so there has to be some flavor justification. The other colors have issues with black's usage of its abilities philosophically, not that it can do it. Thats why its the only color that consistently gets unconditional kill for example.

>>54906029
>>54905805
Blue makes stuff go to another place, it doesn't necessarily care where. In some cases, that means washing stuff away with a tidal wave. In other cases, it means banishing someone to oblivion or some other plane of existence. It varies a great deal. It doesn't care as long as the person is out of its way for the moment and doesn't interfere in its plans.

White's different, in that it does care. It gets rid of people by imprisoning them, frequently by banishing them to another plane of existence just like blue. However, white wants you to stay there for good so that you don't interfere with what it creates. White has jailers who keep other creatures locked away for as long as they exist, as well as spells that outright lock someone away forever.

White gets rid of people because they disrupt with the greater good, blue gets rid of people because they put kinks in the plan, black gets rid of people because they have something to gain from it, red gets rid of people because they want to at that moment in time and green gets rid of people because they were destined to die in that fashion, or because they play their role in nature by dying in that way.

>>54906235
Eh, that's fair.

>>54906249
Uh, okay. Just don't agree with you then. I find selfish murder as bad as unjustified sentencing.

>>54906651
Thsts the diffdrence between white and blsck philosophicslly. White justifies its actions as morally driven. Ehite putd you away becausr you did something wrong like attacked, or makes a trade in value which makes the exile okay, or gives you a way out if you can find it, or only destroys thingd to even the odds over s greater force. Black believes thats not only limiting your power level, but also fake bullshit white made up to prevent others from moving up.

>>54906855
>White justifies its actions as morally driven.

This is key. It may justify them, but they may or may not actually be moral.

>>54903420
>Anyone else notice how every color is, in lore, as brutal as the others?

The colors are not tied to an objective morality system.

>>54906895
Not according to the player's morality, no.

The genocidal rampage of Innistrad's angels is white for the most part, as an example. I mean, we obviously find it insane but according to the twisted programming of Avacyn, it is best for everyone and morally the best course of action.

>>54906895
Yep. Black and the other colors recognises the other colors do these things but blsck realizes that they are unnecessarily limiting themselves. Blue thinks its savage to outright kill things, green doesnt like to take things before their time as dictated by nature, red kills things but does so without thought or calculation, and obviously white feels that its morally wrong to kill things outright without justification.

>>54905586
It's Green that doesn't really get villains. There've been some G/x baddies, but Vorinclex is the closest to a mono-G one I can think of and he was probably the least important praetor.

>>54907125
I was sad when kaladesh didnt have a green villain because I not8
Iced this as well. I wish i could say maybe next time, but the set up forbphyrexia is too obvious to not follow up on it and they set up green as too friendly with the technology on this world I feel. There is a fsction of elves who shun the tech, though. The bishtahar iirc. Maybe thats set up for that.

>>54907170
Maybe we'll get a green villain on Dominaria. Seems like any time they want to make G sinister they need to add B though. Like, Garruk would have worked fine as a "deadliest game" Planeswalker hunting murder machine in mono-G.

>>54907125
Lorwyn's elves made for pretty good green villains. I mean, yeah, they were also black, but the way they were evil was still pretty green. Green's belief that people can't escape the nature they're born into can easily translate into the "some (most) kinds of people are just naturally and totally inferior (and don't really deserve to live)" idea that the turboracist elves cling to.

>>54907234
Thats why it would have worked brilliantly on kaladesh. The world is fueled by this natural energy, its not hard to envision a green character that dislikes that energy being harnessed and tampered with to power metal trinkets and puppets. I legit wanted to do a planeshift kaladesh dnd campaign just to flesh out this concept because i think its so sweet but I dont know shit about dnd.

>>54907274
Eh, green doesnt believe anything natural doesnt deserve to live. Thats the part of the lorwyn elves that made them black. That they were so much more beautiful/powerful then the other tribes on lorwyn that they could excercise any right over them.

>>54907274
Yeah, that's one of the better executions of a green villain that they've done. I think the problem Green has with villians is that the most obvious option is "Big survival-of-the-fittest hungry dude" followed by "eco-terrorist", and beyond that you have to get a lot more creative.

>>54907274
Yeah, there are plenty of good G/B villains. Lorwynn Elves, Phyrexian Glissa, Garruk, Vraska, seems like probably Mazirek whenever we go back to Ravnica again. Probably even more that I'm forgetting.

>>54907402
Survival of the fittest could mean a lot of things. Imagine socially darwinist empire building elves or something.

>>54908015
Social darwinism isnt green, at least not something green does by itself. The popular idea of what survival of the fittest means is actually black in Magic, the idea that only the best and strongest should survive. Green believes that being fit doesnt just mean you have the most power. Its why the card Survival of the Fittest does what it actually does.

>>54908143
To be fair to other anon, it's an understandable confusion. Green does really like being the biggest and the strongest.

>>54908201
Fair enough

>>54908201
Green does believe that the biggest, strongest and most efficient creatures should be at the top of the food chain. It just doesn't believe that is an ideal that all creatures should pursue. Some things are meant to be small and insignificant, some things aren't meant to achieve greatness. There's nothing wrong with that, in the eyes of green.

Black and green agree on the idea of the survival of the fittest but while black uses that as justification for "I need to do whatever it takes to be the best," green doesn't agree with and says "maybe you weren't meant to be the fittest and it's totally okay if you aren't."

>>54908496
SOM green would disagree (and that is mono G, not GB)

>>54908534
That's because Phyrexia seriously fucks up whatever color it interacts with.

I wouldn't say Phyrexian green is typical mono-green at all.

>>54903420
They already did that story years ago with Mirri, and it read like a disgusting furry fanfic. Today it would probably be even worse, but the tumblr fanbase would like it. It would also create a huge outrage here about muh SJWs ruining our games.

>>54908534
He wasnt wuite on point, the sifferenxe between bla k snd green philosophicslly is blsxk believes survical of the fittedt means thst only the steonest survive. Green believes that you are most fit when fitting into whatever niche you need to fill, whether that is an apex predator with brute strength or a worm that survives by hiding in the dirt.
Of course, in new Phyrexia, everything is tinged with black, and so Vorinclex leans on the social darwinist aspect. So yes hes just the might makes right type in mono green. Coincidentally, so was rhonas though in a less blatantly evil way, another green character tinged by black. The main difference philosophically is black believes there should be no weaklings, whereas green when it isnt affected by blacks philosophy believes even the lowliest creatures can fill a role.

>>54908590
It's still perfectly within green's sphere.

Green's survival of the fittest is "let nature take its course" and that includes the strong eating the weak (so long as it is for nature-y purposes).

>>54908686
What's interesting is that Vorinclex and his Vicious Swarm don't seem to value the small and insignificant. That is, Phyrexia doesn't seem to have room for a bottom on its food chain.
>All other lifeforms should be eliminated or subsumed into Phyrexia, the ultimate "species." But unlike other Phyrexians, they believe this should be accomplished through an accelerated natural selection—a monstrous simulation of the predator-prey cycle in which all prey are predators themselves.

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Did someone ask for garbage fanfiction, complete with special-snowflake OC?

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>>54909622
Self-deprecation is even less funny than replying to yourself. Cease and desist.

>>54909679
>>54909622
Don't be a fucking twat, wait for a snowflake thread or don't post that stuff at all.

>>54909622
>>54909679
Stepping around the snowflakes, I actually really like that layout and character building advice for a fanwalker. Trying to boil down the basic concept to three words, sketching out a short story for their background and then picking some cards that reflect their abilities and temperament really helps build a picture of what that walker is like
Is there a template for these? Could I have it?

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White is authoritarian. It cares about order, peace, and structure.
Blue is progressive. It looks to the future, seeking to innovate and transform.

Black is libertarian. It focuses on the potential of the self, and dismisses the constraints of society.
Green is conservative. It wants to preserve the natural order. It values tradition.

Red is an outlier. Red has no political affiliation, but in combination with another color represents passionate extremist groups.

Monowhite: Hilary Clinton.
Boros (WR): Hitler.
Jeskai (WUR): Mao.

Monoblack: Ayn Rand.
Dimir (UB): Julian Assange.
Jund (BRG): Trump.

The current pope is probably Bant. The Buddha is colorless.

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>>54910040
The only templates available are the more detailed ones.

That poster's are so simple, despite being aesthetically pleasing, that I wouldn't say a template's required for that format.

>>54910085
I'd argue Hitler was more Mardu, there's a lot of Black in the Nazi's philosophy, usually on the behalf of the state (hence the interactions with white)

New to magic lore here, who is Ramos and what is a dragon engine? Sounds pretty cool.

Also, what is the biggest (or probably the biggest) creature in magic, size-wise. Probably Genju of the Realkm followed by Worldspine Wurm?

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>>54910040
Sorry, no template. I stitched them together in paint.net. The fonts are "Beleren" for the titling, and "MatrixBook" for the text. Can't really give you much more than that.

>>54909971
I think the snowflake threads have burned themselves out for good this time. It was only ever group masturbation - not even a proper circlejerk. Last one, I promise.

>>54910162
Ramos is a creation of Mishra, back from the Brothers War on Dominaria between him and Urza, a famous artificer planeswalker
A dragon engine isn't really a specific type of construct so much as it denotes that Ramos is an entirely artificial dragon. Also he does generate power for you so in a way he is a draconic engine that powers your spells

>>54910162
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Ramos
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Dragon#Dragon_engines

In short, dragons are artificial dragons native to the original plane of Phyrexia before it came into Yawgmoth's possession. Their precise origins are unknown, but they might related to the unknown draconic planeswalker that once made the plane.

Ramos is a particularly well-known dragon engine that ended up on the world of Mercadia, important to many of the world's religions. The story is rather complicated but essentially, it is responsible for bringing many human and merfolk refugees from the plane of Dominaria to the plane of Mercadia in an ancient conflict known as the Brothers' War, a battle between the brothers Urza (you'll see this name a lot in old lore) and Mishra.

Also, be wary of the wiki I linked, it misses out a lot of details and is outright incorrect in a few places.

>>54910215
https://discord.gg/YQDVRU

If they burned out, it's because most of the discussion takes place on a Discord instead. We should have another thread at some point though, I don't think anyone would mind that.

>>54910162
Dragon engines were artificial (robotic) dragons created during the Brothers' War, a plane-spanning contract between two artificers, Urza and Mishra. Ramos was one such dragon engine, and one of the few survivors of the war. In the millennia that followed, Ramos protected the people who lived in the devastated lands, and was worshipped by them.

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>>54910162
Emrakul. She's the single most powerful being in the lore (save M̤̮̖̟ͅa̡̮r̹͔͉͈i̧͈̙͈̘̻t̬͇͕́ͅ ̜͍L͚̱̘͚a͚̟͓ge). Her card is, appropriately, the most powerful creature ever printed.

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>>54910162
The largest creature is likely one of the following:
>The leviathan planeswalker that Nicol Bolas fought eons ago. What is left of its horns are the Talon Gates, in image related.
>Any of the three Eldrazi titans, each of which are meant to be impossibly massive. Emrakul herself dwarfs the city of Thraben.
>Marit Lage, an ancient sorceress possessing the form of a massive, tentacled monstrosity not very different from the Eldrazi, frozen solid beneath the ice of Dominaria.

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>>54910162
>Also, what is the biggest (or probably the biggest) creature in magic, size-wise.

>>54910461
>>54910451
>>54910398
>>54910347
>>54910295
>>54910285
Thanks for the answers, I'll definitely be reading more.
Worldspine is probably bigger than Emrakul though.

I am returning to the lore after being gone for a while, can someone sum up what happened?
Last I checked, we were fighting round 1 against the eldrazi (first time on zendikar).

>>54910667
We went back to Mirrodin, turns out there was an Phyrexian infestation. Mirrans versus Phyrexians, Phyrexians won and spread to all five colors.
Remember Sorin from Zendikar? We visited his homeplane, which was basically a stereotypical horror plane. Zombies, ghosts, werewolves and vampires were killing all humans but eventually the angel that Sorin had made to protect humanity returned and saved the day.
After that, we went back to Ravnica, where the planeswalker Jace was transformed into a living version of the Guildpact after solving the mysteries of the plane.
Then we went to Theros, a stereotypical Greek plane where Elspeth was killed by Not!Zeus after she slew a satyr that forced himself into godhood.
After that, we went to Tarkir, a world that covers stereotypical Asian cultures, with wedge clans that had wiped out dragons. After going back in time, Sarkhan, who is from the plane, restored the existence of dragons, who ended up ruling the clans and turning them into ally color clans.
Then we went back to Zendikar, where Ulamog and Kozilek were defeated by the Gatewatch, an organization containing Gideon, Jace, Chandra and Nissa.
Then we went back to Innistrad, where Sorin's angel went crazy and had to be put down by her daddy, with Emrakul turning up and getting trapped in the moon. Liliana joins the Gatewatch.
Then we go to Chandra's homeplane, where she overthrows the government and stops Tezerret from exploiting local technology to make planar portals. Ajani joins the Gatewatch.
Then finally, Amonkhet. The Gatewatch sans Ajani goes to Amonkhet, which is Not!Egypt to kill Nicol Bolas. Nicol Bolas arrives, wrecks his own plane and kicks the ass of all of the Gatewatch.

That's about it.

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>>54903420
>his is up there with Visions right, where if it happened today the da base would cry Furry! instead of looking at it as a tragedy story, yeah?
As much as I'd think it'd be cool to see this (and frankly, most of the "cry furry" only comes from places like 4chan anyway), at the same time I don't want to see one of the remaining few reoccurring characters to be diluted just like the fucking Planeswalkers were. I'm elated to see Mirri get some love again, but please don't turn her into part of the Jacetice League

>>54910988
>kicks the ass of all of the Gatewatch

Based Bolas.

>>54910988
Also, Bolas got an army of metal superzombies on Amonkhet, but the coolest one got shanked by some criminal.

>>54910988
>stereotypical Asian culture
Should be noted that the core inspiration was Mongolia and elements of China, so its quite distinct from Kamigawa. Also Dragons timeline is the worst timeline, Sarkhan's dragon fetish is so strong he committed genocide to get his dick up for some scaly fuckin'

And you skipped over the best part of Amonkhet: Bolas blowing the place up was all part of his original plan. He used the last moments of being an oldwalker to dominate the entire world, convert the gods into his servants and establish a society of ritualized combat and tests that's now produced an absolutely immense horde of intelligent zombies with all the skills and training they had in life. When he decided he'd seen enough, he disabled all the protections around his little training camp/city (allowing it to be swarmed by hordes of zombies that the plane just raises naturally), sent out three corrupted gods who killed all but one of their brothers (Hazoret aka dog mom is still alive so expect plenty of red if we ever see Amonkhet again) and then proceeded to absolutely maul the Gatewatch and drop some ominous hints about Ral Zarek (an Izzet walker, who's actually fully paid with the actual guild to boot, from Ravnica)

tl;dr? Bolas crashed his entire plane, with no survivors, because it was all part of his plan

>>54911052
Wasnt furry, alongside weaboo, one of the only two characters to beat Nicky B 1v1?

>>54911124
And guess who was the only Gatewatch member that didn't come to Amonkhet? In fact, guess which Gatewatch member actively said "we should wait before attacking Bolas, come find me on Dominaria in a bit because I'm going to try and get some backup"?
Still, if Dominaria goes the way I'm hoping it does it should make for a good story at least

>>54911052
If you enjoy that you should really read the story where it happens, Bolas spends no small amount of it just insulting the Gatewatch, both in his own head and straight to their faces. Its great

>>54911124
He "beat" him using highly contrived methods in a way that is non-replicable.

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>>54910085
>Buddha is colorless
10/10 post

>>54911044
>Dominaria set details revealed
>time travel to bring back old favorite
>oh hey! Alternate timeline and time travel stress turns them into planeswalkers!!!
>all the old characters get revived as planeswalkers
>you're a planeswalker, and you're a planeswalker, and you're a planeswalker
>new stories every week, and the writing is perplexingly getting worse

>>54911495
You mean weeb or furry?

>>54910085

Trump is definitely just Rakdos lol

>>54910085
Red is more libertarian than black. Black is perfectly find with authoritarian systems of government so long as it's at the top. Blue is very opposed to change. This is why it is so reactive. Green is find with change (evolution etc), just not with technology.

Color philosophies don't map cleanly political ideology because they are fantasy archetypes, not things people actually believe.

>>54912133
I was thinking this because nazis definitely have blue more than red imo. Maybe the big H man himself had some red in him but nazis in general were definitely partially blue mo.

>>54912044
Aha lol Donald DRUMPFT haha

>>54911107
Bolas vs Niv-Mizzet when?

>>54913520
Nazis are primarily WB (which is the best color combo for representing tribalism dynamics). I think R is the best fit for a third color, going by their military tactics (blitzkreig is quintessential red, same with going around France's defensive line through a neutral country) and their leadership (namely hitler, very emotional and chaotic).

>>54907125

Glissa was a minor villain in New Phyrexia and Vraska is looking to be the main baddie of Ixalan.

>>54913811
What a one sided fight that would be.

>>54911161
>Return to dominaria is just Ajani trying to find out the plane weaboo was from.
>He gets wrong information and goes to ixalan and does whatever
>return to Kamigawa
I am hard

>>54910085
Hillary is monoblack as fuck. She doesn't really have ideals and doesn't crave peace and is instead basically POWER AT ANY COST while Trump seems more Abzan or Mardu. Red is libertarian or perhaps anarchist since it's about freedom. Black is similar, but also finds a way to thrive in authoritarian society since its users can manipulate power there. Black is the least political. Blue doesn't care about social progress at all.

>>54916967
But Ajani knows about Kamigawa? He hangs out with Narset, Sarkhan, Tamiyo and her husband there.

>>54911161
To be perfectly honest, I agreed with Jace's reasoning about going to Amonkhet and attacking Bolas immediately.

I don't think it was going to work, mind. But I agreed with the logic.

Bolas is older than them, stronger than them, and smarter than them. It wouldn't matter how much planning or preparation they did, because he would do more of it and he would do it better. That approach is doomed to fail at the outset. Trying it won't work.

However, doing the other option, which is jumping in feet first without taking the time to plan (and thus denying Bolas any time to counter-plan/ruse them), isn't going to work either. Because Bolas is an Elder Dragon Planeswalker who will fuck their shit up harder than Mishra cucked Urza, because he is older than them, stronger than them, and smarter than them.

Both options would have resulted in failure. They chose the latter, but I am of the firm belief that the former would have had the exact same result. As it was, if they had taken even a couple of days or a week to plan, Amonkhet would have fallen completely anyway by the time they got there.

>>54911767
>You mean weeb or furry?
Both.

Umezawa beat him because Bolas was stuck in one place and spending his time in his Meditation Realm.

Ajani beat him by using a fragment of the Conflux (which no longer exists because Bolas absorbed the rest of it, and Ajani doesn't have anywhere near enough power to even dream of getting close to what that tiny fragment gave him) to summon forth another Bolas, and there can only be one.

>>54909679
DUDE
WEED
LMAO

>>54912133
>Blue is very opposed to change
Nope. Blue's reactiveness is just supposed to represent it "thinking fast."

>>54916493
They're both BG

>>54912133
Blue is very opposed to changes in its plan. Almost always, blue is progressing towards some goal and has a plan in place about how to get there. Blue is all about causing change but only in the name of making the plan a reality. Anything that gets in the way of the plan is super bad.

>>54905776
Serra and the Angels having an aversion to black may involve them being literal constructs of white mana.

>>54920343
But muh subjective morality, anon.

>>54921805
I'd buy angels not liking black mana because it could actual fuck with them. Serra just overreacts though.

Black mana doesn't kill people. People kill people, Serra!

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So all the people/sphinxes on Esper made a choice to replace body parts with Etherium right?
It's not like on Mirrodin where people are born with metal bits.... So who is going around and shoving metal plates onto the animals, like the birds and drakes?

>>54913811
Isn't Niv-Mizzet the same type of dragon as Bolas?
He's certainly smarter and stronger than the rest of the dragons on Ravnica, none of them come close to him.

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>>54923520
These folks, I guess.

>>54923688
Fuck no. Big Daddy Nicky B is the last actual elder Dragon. Nivy here is just a smart ass dragon.

>>54923955
So, for the record, Tarkir's Dragonlords are also a different type of Elder Dragons?

Actually a better question is how doe the people of Esper replace body parts with Etherium? Breya here is missing a good portion of her chest so I don't think you just cut-n-replace.

>>54924026
They're completely unrelated to dragons.

>>54923688
Niv-Mizzet is one of the few remaining dragons on that plane.
Remember Zhur-taa Ancient? Ravnican dragons had a similiar fuckheugness to them, to the point where the rest of the plane had to band together and hunt them into nonexistance, the few that remain are the smaller breeds since that makes them better at running and hiding.
Nig-mizzle is an exception to the rule.

>>54924026
Elder Dragons go way, way back.
And you're looking at it wrong anyways, almost every plane has it's unique traits to their creatures, Dragonlords are their own variant(kind of, since it's just a title for the alphas), much like Hellkites aren't found on every plane.

>>54924069
How does Emrakul mind control a flying blue asain into trapping "her" giant tentacled ass into a floating rock?
Fukken. Magic.

>>54924069

All I know is that I can't fap to it.

>>54923520
The Ethersworn believe that the Noble Work requires all life to be infused with ehterium, as >>54923826 says.

So yes, they literally just capture wildlife, replace some of that meat with etherium and either cast them back out into the wild or find some use for them.

>>54924189
>can't fap to it
>can see INSIDE Breya's pelvis
>not finding that hot at all
I swear, MtGfags have dumpster tier fetishes.

>>54924699
I prefer my women more modest

>>54924069
The key word seems to be 'infused.'

My guess is that they somehow infuse flesh with etherium and from that point, it gradually unfolds.

Another part of me imagines that it's something like implanting a small but complex segmented device. The device gradually expands in the flesh until it's dozens of tiny floating bits of filigree and the flesh has been completely displaced.

>>54924874
So we're to assume the etherium takes over the roles of the replaced organs? Breya and her I'll can breathe, digest, and pump blood to her three human limbs?

And doesn't that make Breya naked? No pants. No top. Just her metal bits out and some of them happen to cover/replace her nip.

Follow up, can she breed? Not in a "I wanna breed that" way, but can the etherium girls with metal ovaries reproduce and repopulate their numbers, or is the goal to not die and fuck other plans?

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>>54925211
Its hard to say; I distinctly remember there was a plot point about the creation of the first Etherium heart from Tezz's origin story, so I think genuinely organ replacements are something that have to be made and installed independently. Otherwise the Etherium seems to function more like a life support machine that offers a ton of other benefits. In fact there were cards like Vectis Agents that specifically mentioned that etherium suppresses life energies. And the only full conversion into Etherium I can remember had the creature type 'Zombie' as well, so I think going full metal without proper prep does 'kill' you, at least biologically

>>54925405
>we'll never go back to places like Esper where explaining how anything there might make sense would make a fun book/show/set in it's own right
Thanks for the answer. I guess they balance immortals with reproducing mortals enough to keep going.

>>54924434
Am I making shit up when I remember the Tez comic and etherium being in short supply? Why staple it to birds and Bant defectors!?

>>54925583
Etherium is limited but not in short supply, if that makes sense. There is a finite amount of etherium (well until recently when Breya found carmot somewhere on Alara, presumably in Jund's mountains) but there's just enough out there to make sure everyone in Esper is a degree of enhanced. Its White's community focused stretched to its logical limit by Blue's obsession, facilitated by Black's love of recycling dead stuff. Quite a few people have an arm or a leg that's on its third go around

>>54925211
Breya and other Esperites are artifact creatures. That means when one is infused with etherium, one ceases to be an ordinary flesh and blood creature. Etherium-infused Esperites are magical constructs that were once human. As such, I imagine that at that point, they are simply animated by the magic of the etherium rather than animated by any biological function.

As such, I imagine that Esperites with that particular section of their body replaced are no longer capable of breeding. Etherium infusion was likely slowing down the rate of child birth in Esper, which is perfectly in line with the goals of the Ethersworn. The less new life is brought into the world, the easier their task is.

Esperites probably only have specific biological functions if they still possess the organs that perform those functions. A section of the body that has been replaced by etherium is likely only capable of a handful of things:
>Movement.
>Data Processing.
>Sensory Systems.
Regarding the third point, I'm not sure if an individual can 'feel' through their etherium but an aether-lich seems entirely capable of vision, at the very least. In addition to this, etherium needs to at least be able to simulate the nervous system in order to function adequately, which covers the second point.

>>54925731
>>54925583
Esper's supply of etherium was limited but the Ethersworn were devoted to infusing all life with etherium, in order to transcend reality and reach the next level of existence. Basically, religious nonsense. In order to achieve this, they went about developing ways to use as little etherium as possible to do as much as possible. This is what led to etherium enhancements looking so delicate and fragile. They're purposefully made using as little etherium as possible, in order to have enough to infuse all life on Esper with etherium.

>>54910162
If you count Yawgmoth he was appriximately the size of Phyrexia, since he was Phyrexia. Also, the guy who said Marit Lage and Emrakul were the strongest entities was only right in that they're probably the strongest ones currently alive. Karn, Bolas and Ugin are also contenders.

>>54926068
I'd say Ugin is out of the running since he was (technically? Its hard to tell) killed by Bolas when they fought on Tarkir
Karn I think is probably the only Planeswalker who could reasonably go toe to toe with Bolas, and even that's more because Karn understands artifice in a way that Bolas doesn't

>>54926068
>Also, the guy who said Marit Lage and Emrakul were the strongest entities was only right in that they're probably the strongest ones currently alive.
I think that anon was referencing creature size specifically, as in power and toughness.

>>54926118
Karn also has more control over time than anyone else we've seen (except maybe Teferi?) and that's pretty hard to fight.

>>54926163
Yeah, Karn would be able to punch Bolas into last week quite literally, but he's dropped off the radar as has a lot of the Phyrexian plot after the novel was such a fucking disaster sadly

>>54926200
There's no way of knowing precisely how powerful post-Mending Karn is. A lot of his Legacy Weapon abilities are likely reduced by the Mending, if only because the current creative team probably doesn't give a fuck about how powerful he was back then.

>>54926254
I'm pretty sure the entire point of the Mending was the creative team back then wanting to depower planeswalker because you literally could not threaten with anything short of destroying the multiverse. Even blowing up a single plane was only a threat to the more more 'walkers back in the day

>>54926335
Precisely, so saying Karn is capable of punching Bolas into last week seems a little unlikely, especially when Bolas has been hyped up as the primary villain of Gatewatch-era MtG.

>>54926379
Bolas curb stomped five planeswalkers single handed, and while they aren't the strongest ever the Gatewatch aren't pushovers, and his abilities on his cards reflect that
If Karn's card is anything to go by, he's still pretty damn powerful and very skilled at what he does. Think like Nahiri, she lost of a lot of power in the Mending but still had enough to single handedly wipe out the progenitor line of vampires on Innistrad while summoning an Eldrazi to finish the deal

>>54926435
Nahiri's power level is proportional to the amount of preparation she puts in though. I'm pretty sure she spent quite a while setting up her revenge on Innistrad.

>>54926163
>>54926200
Remember that Bolas was able to beat Teferi's time magic in time spiral, so it's not as he's unskilled in that. If Karn is at Teferi's level, then Bolas can likely negate his magic too. That said, there's still the legacy.

>>54925211
Well now that Esper is now part of Alara and no longer it's own little demi-plane.... They don't need to worry about breeding.
From the cards it seems like there is no shortage of people, angels and beasts who want to join.

Would a kindly lorefag inform as to the state of etherium creation in the lore? Last I knew, Tezz and Sharuum and I guess everyone on Esper wanted to find out ow to make it, but hadn't quite figured it out. Then I guess Breya knows how to make it and now one of the latest Tezz walker cards can make etherium cells as well. What happened? I thought the creation of etherium was some inscrutable process, a lost art. When did they figure out and how? Thanks.

>>54926874
They weren't worried about breeding anyway, the whole purpose of the Noble Work was to infuse all living creatures that exist with etherium.

Now they've discovered more living creatures, which means that the Noble Work is further from completion than ever.

>>54926927
The creation of etherium requires sangrite, something that can only be found on Jund. The sphinx Crucius was responsible for inventing etherium and is suspected to be a planeswalker, as he was able to acquire sangrite from Jund for the creation of etherium on Esper. After the Conflux, Esperites began to get their hands on sangrite and were able to use it to produce new etherium. It's no longer a long-lost art and Esper is likely to experience a renaissance.

>>54926927
I think what happened was that they had the process to make more Etherium, they just lacked the ability to get the necessary materials. I think they exiled the planeswalker who made it in the first place.

After that it became about re-using and thinning out the existing Etherium, and the leading Esperians concealed the fact that they can't make more.

>>54927052
>>54926999
That's cool. Looking forward to a return to Alara.

>>54927076
Unlikely. Alara wasn't a massive hit and its story is resolved. Besides, after what MaRo said about three-color blocks during KTK, I don't think it's a good idea.

>>54927134
That's a shame, Esper is a really nice looking place.

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>>54903478
>You forgot green
>Hurricanes
>Monster attacks
>Destroyed by sentient vegetation
>Mutated into a beast

Nay green takes a back seat to (almost) everything Lore wise.
>Hurricanes
Death Winds
>Monster attacks
Also monsters, plus demons, plus undead
>Destroys by sentient vegetation
Destroys sentient life- Oh and Non sentient life too.
>Mutated into a beast
In spades. Mutations, corruptions, flesh warping, demonic pacts.

>>54927416
Sorry, the counter example was black, but the other three have similar effects.

>>54927356
For those that are interested in Alara though, this is required reading material.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxGjJnZ6EDzFbGtZVzBWZEh6eE0/view

>>54927434
Oh wow thanks!
I got into mtg around the RtR and I thought I'd never get to read this!

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>>54924517

>>54927434
>>54927548
As the person who scanned it, it was definitely worth the purchase. I really wish they made more Planeswalker's Guides in the style of actual travel guides like this one, they're a joy to read.

I really want return to Amonkhet to be Ajanivengers Vs Bolas + Old Mindbroken Jacetice league

What sort of magic could Jace pick up that would really.... make him more useful?

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>>54927905
Focus more on his illusion stuff. Phantom constructs, concealed spells, turning invisible, all kinds of tricky blue stuff that would work great with him.

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Did anyone catch those Planar Portals in Teferi's Protection art? It's pretty neat.

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>>54924134
>They're completely unrelated to dragons.

How?

I don't think we can male a comparison between them and Bolas, but all of them are Elder dragons, at least in theory

>>54932070
>male instead of make

stupid phone

>>54927101
You replace your entire body with Etherium, and still keep that douchebag face? Christ, no wonder Tezz hated Silas so much
>>54927134
>after what MaRo said about three-color blocks during KTK
What did he say?

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>>54903420
>and how little sense it makes,

Can we talk about the fucking summoned elephant in the room?

>Are creatures just Aether copies?

>Why did Garruk and Kiora try to collect bonds/essences then?

>Are we hardcore Pokemon Trainers or are we Chessmasters?

>Does the summon think? Feel? How much of it is "there"?

>How does the white mana knights Elspeth just conjured up factor into it?

>Will Wizards ever address or aknowledge the grotesquely over the top cruelty, immorality, and the implications of how we use and treat creatures in the card game?

>>54932265
I think the official line is that they're constructs made of mana or aether or whatever, templated from the planeswalker's memories of the original creature.
I wish we saw planeswalkers summon things "onscreen" (other than zombies and elementals) more often. At least, I get the impression that never happens, I'll admit I don't actually read all the stories.

>>54932362
Aside from elementals and some references to Elspeth summoning soldiers on Theros I can't think of any out and out summonings in the lore recently (zombies don't count, the whole point is you're using the corpses already there)
I think they don't do it as much to get around the whole "Planeswalkers are not even myths and most planes don't know about the multiverse" thing. That and Gideon just dropping a Sun Titan or summoning the equivalent of a soldier deck would kind of kill dramatic tension a little bit

>>54932362
That just begs the question why Kiroa fought Thassa so hard for Arixmethes, if she could've just bailed as soon as she got a good look of the leviathan, but I do think you're right.

You're also correct in so far as it's a rare thing, with only Kiora and Elspeth having done it in my recent memory, and they sure as shit didn't pause to explain the mechanics of it beyond 'pulling the shapes into form'.

>>54932362
In the Time Spiral book Teferi "summons" Two Ghitu warriors and Two Vashino warriors alongside Jhoira when he was looking for a way to plug Zhalfir and Shiv safely back into Dominaria without exploding the multiverse, but really all he did was bring them all along for the ride.

>>54932514
Kiowa didn't just want a big creature, she wanted a perfect copy. So she went in close to form a bond and study it closely.

>>54927416
Green is still the primary color of the Fight mechanic

Destroyed by sentient vegetation is different than destroyed by magic or brute force

You're right for the others

>>54932610
>>54932514
>>54932362

Old as fuck story, but definitely one of the better ones, and it gives you a real good idea of how Magic happens "in-universe", so to speak.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/lorans-smile-2014-10-27

>>54932610
I went and fetched up the story to refresh myself.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/drop-drop-2015-05-20
I don't think you're entirely wrong, but I'm getting a different feel from it.

>>54927101
Hes holding the soldering iron where it gets hot.

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>>54932811
>Old as fuck
>2014

>>54932909

>This short story originally ran in The Colors of Magic anthology published in 1999.

Read the article, motherfucker. Literally the first sentence in the introduction.

>>54932848
Magic is at least partially idiosyncratic.
It's possible that to summon creatures, Kiora needs to feel like she's in charge - which could be why she tries to tame Arixmethes.

My personal speculation is that she is attempting to usurp Kiora, and that taming the biggest sea creature around would help a lot with that. This presumes that Kiora either knew enough about Xenagos, Theros, and/or divinity on Theros to know that mortals (or at least planeswalkers) could become gods; or, that Kiora thought that she would be able to displace Thassa regardless (possibly not believing in divinity at all).

The Bident is a big get but probably still subject to Thassa, which would make it a liability in round two - so Kiora's content to dicker around as a small fish in smaller ponds, elsewhere.

It's probable that the trouncing Thassa gave her is the reason Kiora wanted to flee at Sea Gate (where she faced not one, but two obviously-superior foes). How she takes the Gatewatch's success remains to be seen, but my personal expectation is that she will try to recruit allies for round two with Thassa.

>>54932199
There's barely enough design space for a three-color set, let alone a color block.

>>54932811
These people seem immensely more powerful than your run of the mill civilian.
It took Feldon mere days to learn how to summon zombies or create duplicants, his work with hand was much slower but he also created an exemplary golem in just a year of picking up the craft.
And given the age of the article it probably doesn't have precedence over recent works.

>>54932199
Well see when you replace your entire body with Etherium you end up becoming a Aether-lich.
Which is somehow seen as a bad thing.

>>54935080
Aether-liches are technically undead and undeath is bad in Esper.

>>54903420
I preferred MtG fluff when the colour wheel wasn't so stringent and literal. Mages weren't whatever colour, actions were whatever colour. They didn't literally draw from different mana that must be used for different types of magic, instead, the land system was an abstraction and whether magic was black or white or whatever had more to do with what it was doing rather than something integral to it.

>>54935176
It's been this way for a long time, grandpa.

First off, it's best to keep in consideration that the cards don't reflect the entirety of Magic, they've touched on this a few times, especially concerning red since the color of emotion translates into "ME ANGRY" for the vast majority of cards.

The colors overlap in numerous places but each has their own unique way of pulling off the same stunt.

When removing a creature, White/Black do it by utterly dismissing the creature, destroying it completely or else heavily restricting it. Red/Green do it with brute force, either having your minions do it for you or using concentrated magic or nature to simply crush them. Blue merely moves them to another location or else exhausts them to the point that they aren't an issue.

When drawing cards White typically has the theme of balancing with your opponent or retribution for damage they've done, Black is grasping power at any cost, Blue is ingenuity, Green is communion, and Red is madness and/or maddening inspiration.

Things like this go on for a while.

I think the land system is a fantastic way of representing what a mage is capable of. Typically people who live in the mountains or plains have to be more active in their fight for survival, compared to living in the forest where nature's bounty is plentiful.
Ravnica does play a good part in being an exception since a good deal of the lands can hardly be placed into a certain color if it weren't for the dramatic stylization (reminder that everything we see in game is typically on the extreme end of the spectrum, there are plenty of places in Ravnica that are vastly urban, and not bod riddled or surrounded by waterfalls)

>>54935176
The land system is more abstract than ever, characters never refer to the colors ever, etcetera.

If a character is of a certain color, it tells you what sort of person that character is likely to be and what sort of abilities and/or magic that character is likely to use. That's about it.

>>54935367
>>54935436
I dunno, I feel like in the fiction the colour wheel is more explicit than ever. There's something oddly videogame-y about the current lore, in that it feels like the different colours are different ability stacks that are separate from one another rather than the nature of a creature's actions.

IMO the ideal way of looking at magic in M:tG is like this: hitting somebody with a ball of telekinetic force is Red. Using that same telekinetic force to strangle someone is Black. Instead there are clear, arbitrary lines, like how wind magic is almost always Blue, no matter what.

>>54906029
I figured the wizard in the picture is the other creature that you control and are returning to your hand, not the planeswalker casting it

>>54906029
Some exile effects are benign, like swords to plowshares. You're banished to another realm where you scythe grain on your peaceful little farm.

>>54935768
>videogame-y about the current lore
Yes, and completely willing things into and out of existence at will regardless of color was the fantasy setting we've all been waiting for.

>>54935768
Blunt force being red and asphyxiation being black isn't equally arbitrary and video gamey?

Necromancy has always been primarily found in black, pyromancy always primarily found in red, etc. Perhaps the mechanics were different once upon a time but in terms of flavor, different sorts of magic have always been associated with different colors.

>>54935791
It represents the wizard casting it on himself and the monster. The planeswalker isn't represented at all here.

>>54923688
Niv's just older and more experienced than other Ravnican dragons. He's 10k years old and a parun, after all.

>>54924026
Tarkir dragons are nothing like Elder Dragons. Tarkir dragons are dragons native to Tarkir, in a way a creation of Ugin.

Elder Dragons rival Oldwalkers in sheer power, could traverse the planes, and the Elder Dragon war (that ended with just 4-5 survivors, one of whom was Nicky Bolas) is described as having "shaken the foundations of the multiverse".

>>54927434
Are there archives of the other stories and guides floating around?

>>54935988
After Alara, they were digital articles rather than books.

https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Planeswalker%27s_Guide

All the necessary links can be found here.

>>54935920
I think the nuance he's going for is that in both instances the wizard is using the same 'spell', some kind of TK force thing, but they're applying it differently. The red way is an application of external force, the black why is a direct attack on the target's ability to sustain themselves.

Asphyxiation via TK definitely feels like more of a violation and an intrusion into the target than a force bolt type spell.

>>54936104
I see no reason for the different colors to have access to the same school of magic just used differently. That's boring for mechanics, art and flavor.

I see no reason why asphyxiation shouldn't just fall under a sort of death magic. Making it all variations of telekinesis just seems like an unnecessary degree of subtlety.

>>54935123
Esper, despite being white & black is lacking some of the common monsters, like zombies and spirits.

>>54932265
>>54932811
The Colors of Magic actually has a variety of summoning. Mana constructs, conjuring the dead, and calling existing creatures exist in Loran's Smile alone. Angel of Vengeance involves a geis-type summoning spell on an angel, making her do what the summoner wants, and one of the blue stories involves summoning a living thing's spirit (and killing the spirit kills the creature).

I thought that straight up pulling creatures through the Blind Eternities was impossible post-mending, but Garruk and Liora seem to imply they resummon actual creatures, unless the stories are implying they don't realize their memories and "summoning" is kind of false.

>>54934330
This is bullshit.

>>54936249
I'm not saying all magic should be some variation of telekinesis. I'm saying that most magic itself shouldn't be aligned by its nature, but by its use (obviously, there are exceptions - straight up death magic for example, the kind of that actually shrivels a target's life force, is about as Black as you can get).

In terms of game mechanics and art content this would change almost nothing, but in terms of fluff it would make the fiction feel less like a game pretending to be fiction.

>>54936610
MtG magic being aligned by its nature is kind of its thing. DnD and video games restrict spells based on balance and mechanics. Magic has the mechanical aspect, but lore-wise the colors are defined by feelings, temperament, intent, emotions, nature, etc.

Besides, most colors can kind of do everything, just not as well. White can do direct damage, green can draw cards, red can pull from the graveyard. It's just that these effects are niche, or don't fit into competitive play.

>>54907125
Erzuri (even before compleation)?
Polukranos in a minor role
I'm sure at least one of the like 40 Kamigawa block monogreen Legendaries is evil.

>>54936586
It's what MaRo genuinely believes.

The good part is that with blocks being deleted entirely and WotC only releasing sets from now on, there's a chance that we'll be able to see all sorts of funky sets, because WotC doesn't have to pull out its hair over block design any longer.

So MaRo can no longer use the "there's not enough design space for an entire block around that mechanic" excuse.

>>54936711
>but lore-wise the colors are defined by feelings, temperament, intent, emotions

This is kind of what I mean. There should be more of a gap between the magic and the colour, IMO.

Using fire to burn someone's house down isn't the same as using it to warm your friends up during a cold night. Pyromancy shouldn't be Red, chucking fire at people should be Red. As far as card representation goes, this would change very little, since 90% of fire magic is going to involve burning people, but the distinction is important for the fiction side of things, I feel.

Right now most of the magic in the fluff is extremely monofocused and tends to make the characters associated with it two-dimensional.

>>54924026
Elder Dragon>Dragon
iirc all the Elder Dragons could move between planes and cast magic

>>54936586
>>54932265
I believe one of the Coldsnap novels had two wizards make chairs from mana in the first couple chapters, if that helps

>>54936805
>Pyromancy shouldn't be Red, chucking fire at people should be Red.
Okay this I get. And yeah, earlier Magic had a lot more leniency with this to an extent fluff-wise. Would be nice to go back to it, though, it would be nice to visit an original plane again too.

>>54936922
Pretty sure the Tarkir Elder Dragons aren't nearly as old or powerful, and can't/couldn't move between planes. Card type is the same, lore is different, like how rat goblins and lumpy goblins and kappa goblins are all Goblins mechanically.

>>54936974
Mana constructs would basically solve all problems.

>>54936982
Well we are getting Dominaria, which has a lot of stunning implications. Especially with Mirri becoming newly printed, and Karn still roaming around. I am interested to see if they are going to do anything regarding Marit Lage.

>>54932070
i reckon that they are a different breed of elder dragon, a unique lineage of ugin on tarkir. like how goblins are on multiple planes. ugin and bolas are just different types of elders.

Honestly I think there would only be two different types of summoning; native summons and foreign summons.

Was Erebos always this super-dee-duper villain? It always seemed to me that he just like did his job but in the story part where Emrakul goes to the moon Jace is looking through everyone's past and sees Erebos being like a moustache twirler to Gideon.

Also why does Gideon want to kill him? He was the one who started the aggression and got all his friends killed.

>>54937897
Because Gods have to be dicks regardless of their intentions.
The multiverse works in mysterious ways.

>>54937897
Was that really what happened though?
It could be just how Gideon feels, like Nissa and Tamiyo's visions.

>>54927967
But he already does all of that, constantly. It's all he knows.

>>54938037
Iirc in Magic Origins, there was some Titan Erebos owned that was meandering about and Gideon "Chadmaster" Jura decided he and his thugs would kill it. Erebos got pissed they killed his Titan so he nuked Gideon who put up his Safe Space and survived but all his friends died. So now he's mad at Erebos and wants to kill him.

It was the equivalent of a woman slapping a man and the man slapping the woman back and now the woman is upset.

>>54927434
Anon I love you
I've been looking for this forever

>>54938235
Wasn't Erebos actually kind of OK with them killing the Titan, and only got pissed when Gideon got too big for his man-skirt (breeches being apparently beyond the reach of Therosian textiles technology) and threw the spear he used to kill the Titan straight at Erebos' face?
Gideon fucked up, and I think that's going to haunt him until he can admit it
>>54937864
Native summons as in "I use my magic to make, tame, train or enslave a local creature into the creature I am 'summoning'"? That would be pretty neat actually, and help explain why necromancers and artificers seem to do so well as planeswalkers, they literally make what they need from whats around them
And it does something that I really really wish the story would do more often: portray Planeswalkers as out of context problems. Being able to use magic that the people you are fighting quite literally cannot imagine, much less comprehend, should be a huge advantage and make disguising a planeswalker very difficult. And in a neat bit of game-story integration it explains reprints, functional or otherwise, as a planeswalker understanding how this plane's magic works to get the same or similar effect

>>54938937
Story-wise this is a thing. Tez uses artifacts that he didn't conjure, and doesn't Liliana specifically raise and control zombies, not summon them? Mechanically it would complicate things; having creature spells and summon spells be separate things sounds cool, but that's what we do with Planeswalker spells and a decade later people still bitch about the mechanics based around them. And it would be like differentiating between enchantments that are magical effects and ones that creature physical structures.

>portray Planeswalkers as out of context problems
This should happen more. Nissa goes to Lorwyn and isn't seen as a deformed elf with kithkin feet. Tez goes from plane to plane with no one horrified by his metal arm or trying to steal it. Catbro goes to non/catman worlds and no one tries to worship or exercise him. Closest thing we've gotten is Kiora being worshiped (and Nahiri?). It's the Star Trek human alien problem, where budget and practicality means no on cares about the aliens and how similar/different they look, so every story doesn't have to be about cultural differences.

>>54937108
I assume printing a dead Mirri isn't a spoiler that they're bringing her back to life, but who knows. We full cape writing now.

>>54938937
>>54939325
Also Chandra whiffs a spell because Zendikar's mana is so different. That happened versus Sarkhan.

>>54938937
Yep, Native summons is all about using what the plane provides. Think along the lines of Nissa and Liliana - they can never run out of summonables because every plane will have a corpse or rock they can turn into a zombie/elemental.
Another example is Kiora calling Lorthos to her on Zendikar, summoning an ACTUAL thing should be possible.... just that each walker would have a different way of doing/justifying it.

Foreign summoning is just creating a well-made construct out of magic.

>>54910085
Nazis and Hitler are WG.

>>54939435
>Gaddock Teeg is alt-right

So what happened off screen on New Phyrexia?

Are Urabrask and Sheoldred dead?
Is my boy Thrun okay?
Are there any Mirran survivors left on the surface or did they all go underground? Did they get genocided?

>>54939573
I think all the Mirran survivors are underground now, hiding in the Furnace Layer and hoping they don't end up in the path of The Great Work. Some are probably still alive but I'd be surprised if they aren't on an inevitable decline.

I'm not sure what's happening with the Praetors, but it seems they are all alive for the moment, but I think Elesh Norn ended up more or less in charge of New Phyrexia. Which, honestly, makes sense, from a strictly objective color pie based assessment Phyrexia is a lot more White than anything else, just White taken to its worst extremes

>>54939526
Not everyone of the same colour is the same.
You can be a nice old dude or a murderous dictator while still being in the same color.

Euthanasia/Survival of the Fittest is as green as it gets. White can be very fascist.

>>54939793
I thought Elesh killed at least the B and G Praetors , while U is unaccounted for and R is in hiding.

>>54938937
Does that mean Gideon's charisma that allows him to build and lead armies is a form of summoning?

I thought that Elesh-Norn managed to subdue all the other praetors to her cause aside from the red one, which is why that color is absent in Atraxa.

>>54910085
Hillary is Orzhov as fuck. White means for black ends.

>>54940056
I don't think so, considering the lore behind as the result of a coalition between them all at Elesh's urging.
Then again, IIRC it only mentions the Praetors, not names, so maybe Elesh killed Vorinclex and Sheoldred and replaced them with more pliant Praetors?
>>54940152
They don't describe it as "summoning courage" for nothing
>>54940173
I read that Urabrask just declined the offer to participate, which is in keeping with his title of the Hidden. Red Phyrexians are just punch clock villains, they do their hours then go home

>>54940365
*the lore behind Atraxa as the result of a coalition
I accidentally a word

>>54940365
And somewhere I heard Norn invaded the black and red factions, killing Urabrask, and Sheoldred's fate being unknown (though she had six competitors so if she was killed any number of replacement praetor exist). Red faction getting winded out being the reason that Atraxa has no red.

>>54942212
Urabrask and Sheoldred are both MIA, neither one are confirmed dead. As for Atraxa, I believe the idea was that she was made before Norn started fucking shit up and Urabrask just chose not to contribute because he didn't like the idea of collaborating with the others, though I could be wrong.

Isn't New Phyrexia the most likely target for the new zombie army?

>>54942587
"Hi Phyrexians, my name is Bolas, and this is my army from another world. I'm going to use a machine (something you're good at assimilating) to show you other nonCompleted worlds exist, and throw my limited army at your plane of venom sacks. I am in no way worried you might reverse engineer my magic blue rock and learn its weaknesses, capture my portal to spread through the the universe, use your Obliterators against me, or infect me with oil."

I see no reason Bolas wouldn't do this.

>>54942802
>>54942802
Also I can't see a single reason Bolas would bother invade Phyrexia in the first place, there's nothing there to help him recreate his oldwalker spark, at least not anymore
I'm actually having a hard time imagining where he plans to take that army now I think about it. Where in the Multiverse would you start to reclaim being omnipotent, but even Bolas needs an army to get to?

>>54939325
>catman world
Skibadibadim bombadabom

>>54943080
I'm assuming Wizards has plans for a world with another Conflux-like power event that an army would allow him to take more easily. There aren't too many other reasons why he'd want to burn his bridges on a world that will provide him an ever-growing army, and a worldwide ego boost. If he were smart he'd have a dozen or more planes pumping out armies to worship him. Then when he had a planar portal he'd have entire worlds to throw around.

I'm also assuming they get back to why he released the Eldrazi in some roundabout way.

>>54944314
>If he were smart he'd have a dozen or more planes pumping out armies to worship him
To be fair Bolas created Amonkhet in the final hours before his spark changed and he got nerfed down to neowalker levels. Even then he specifically chose Amonkhet because of its weird reanimation field that makes zombies out of literally everything that dies on the plane, making it a lot easier to run as a zombie army factory
I'm starting to think he released the Eldrazi with the goal of either distracting other planeswalkers, or just baiting them to Amonkhet to completely clean house and talk his army somewhere else

>>54942802
Phyrexians already have heard rumors of other worlds.

>>54905586
I wholeheartedly approve of this, though.

Kamigawa Block, and the Gathering Dark; two of the best magic books/storylines

>>54910162
Emrakul, I think. Eldrazi are Kaiju-scale Elder Gods, And she in particular is a vast floating thing that's more a terrain feature than a monster.

>>54912133
Red is emotional. Black is selfish, sometimes malignantly so.

I don't know why its so hard to get; black being "good" or "bad" depends mostly on its context, on who its up against.

In a highly-regimented or collectivist society where people are exploited or kept ignorant, black's exactly what you need.

Things you should sic a black protagonist on:

Corrupt Churches and mobs of mean-minded normies

SJWs

An encroaching autistic machine collective

An even bigger Black dark lord jerk.

Black's got elements of "us freaks need to stick together" that I think could be emphasized more. Black judges people on their personal merits, and doesn't care what their race, class, or heart-rate is.

Green judges people on how "natural" they are.

Blue judges people based on how well they measure up to blue's idea of what they SHOULD be. (YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!)

White just judges.

Red judges based on what its FEELS happen to be at the time. No one said that red's feels were particularly reasonable.

>>54918458
Blue is opposed to deviation from ITS way of doing things.

>>54944664
Have they heard anything other than oil-dimentia-whispers? Or the people talking about how Memnarc thought he could harvest interdimentional abilities from mortals? Because they don't even know who the Father of Machines is for sure, much less that other planes are
Real things they should devote energy into reaching.

Better question: Does anyone other than Karn and Elspeth know about New Phyrexia?

>>54944664
I've been thinking about reading those two cycles. I've only really read the Artifact cycle, and got through The Colors of Magic. Have txts of Rath-Odyssey (I think) but I only own the first I've Age book.

>>54945136
>I've Age
>Ice Age
Thanks phone.

>>54945009
I feel like most colors make good SJW charactatures. Blue for being progressively judgey. Red for losing their shit about other people's opinions. Black for being corrosive shits with no perspective or ability to understand arguments other than their own. White for imposing rules on the world "because it would be better this way".

>>54910085
I didn't realize CTR posts on /tg/.

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>>54945136
>pic related

Koth provided he's still alive. Maybe Ajani if Elspeth told him and if he knows then the Gatewatch probably know too.

>>54946040
I wonder if they talk about this shit though. What prompts the PTSD-inducing conversations of fighting magic Borg or losing your entire family in stock-fantasy-backstory 014 or being mind-linked with Cthulu? I want Jacetice Leage to meet the Justice Walkers from another end of the multiverse and trade horror stories about the shit they've seen.

>>54945136
Kruphix does

>>54903420
I just miss world building. Tarkir was the last new place we got to see distinctly different races and species living side by side, working as a team, in the art.

>>54944314
>I'm also assuming they get back to why he released the Eldrazi in some roundabout way.
He wanted to see who'd try and stop them.

>>54947246
Uh... Amonkhet?

>>54947547
>We Wuz...

>>54948204
>minotaurs n sheeit

>>54926502
That ismt limited to just her. Most of bolas' schemes take decades to come together.

>>54927905
Sailing

>>54943080
Bolas is going to trace the retreating Gatewatch nerds back to their planes. Jace flees back to Ravnica, Liliana to Dominaria, Nissa to zendikar, Chandra to Kaladesh/the other place, Gideon to Theroz. He's going to launch an all-out attack on everywhere at once. I assume his true objective is something on Dominaria, but he can easily have business to attend to on the other planes.

>>54948601
100% wrong, we even know jace ran to ixalan.

>>54948601
>Bolas is going to trace the retreating Gatewatch nerds back to their planes
Why would he do that? He's been provided ample opportunities to finish them off but he always passes it on. He clearly wants them alive, whether it's just to dick with them more or if it involves grander schemes is up for debate.

>>54948702
Bolas has recruited them into his army against their will. They have proven they can be useful. Also jace and lili have excellent track records under bolas from a management perspective.

>>54924026
Tarkir has elder dragons. Nicky B. is an Elder Dragon.

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I'm trying to read through the mtg novel series because I hate my life, but I can't find the ice age cycle on bookz. Anyone know where I can go to get it digitally?

>>54948395
At the same time though, Bolas did literally zero preparation for fighting the Gatewatch. His only situational advantage over them was their lack of preparation and the horrors they had gone through earlier that day. Otherwise, he defeated them entirely through being an elder dragon and an archmage.

>>54948720
Liliana fucked up the only assignment Bolas ever gave her.

>>54945028
That's more a white thing. Blue is opposed to things going against its plan, but it doesn't care much about what or how people do things as long as it doesn't directly interfere with what blue wants to do.

>>54949980
buy fat packs :^)

>>54949980
The first one is on TPB and you can buy it for a semi-normal price, because it was in Coldsnap fat packs. The 2nd and 3rd are very hard to find and expensive.

>>54950649
Not really. Bolas had to step in at the end but she ultimately achieved her objectives.

>>54905586
Hey. Hey, which two characters are the villain and henchman du jour?
Why, it's Nicky "Grixis, Baby" Bolas and Tezzeret "I'll tezzeret ya" McStabbyguts, U/B artificer and certified asshole.
That's been the case from KLD out - before that, you had the Edrazi, colorless, mindless, useless.
Tarkir had no one villain in particular, except maybe Sarkhan "Dragon McDragonfucker" Vol who ruined best timeline because of his fetish.
Theros' main antagonist was Xenagos, R/G juggalo motherfucker, and then Heliod was a bit of a cunt.
RTR didn't really have much of a plot people gave a shit about far as I can tell.
OG Innistrad was all about dem B villains.
Scars was about the praetor coalition of New Phyrexia, of which only Urabrask had even a smidge of sympathy for the people of Mirrodin.
OG Zendikar had the fucking eldrazi, too.
Alara was Nicky B.
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor...I'm honestly not sure about the plot there being worth a damn, but Gaddock Teeg was a bit of a cunt and W/G, but Ashling was R, later B, too.
Time Spiral was an apocalypse/post-apocalypse thing.
OG Ravnica had Szadek, Dimir
Kamigawa had Konda, I'll give you that
OG Mirrodin had Memnarch, who was Blue.

That's the entirety of modern, get fucked

>>54956721
>Tarkir had no one villain in particular, except maybe Sarkhan "Dragon McDragonfucker" Vol who ruined best timeline because of his fetish

Sarkhan was the Catalyst, he's not at fault for Tarkir's time change. If anybody is responsible, it's Bolas for trying to kill Ugin, which led to Sarkhan doing time travel in the first place.

When will Nissa lead Nicol Bolas to Innistrad so he can meet her new friend.
Duel Decks Emrakul vs. Nicol Bolas.

>>54957670
Because Bolas is not that dumb.
If anything I want to see Emrakul breakout and go for New Phyrexia

>>54956871
He tipped the scales in favour of Ugin's survival, which doomed the Clans timeline and created the Dragons timeline. He's definitely responsible for the split, at the very least
To be honest I'm still not 100% sure if the Clans timeline is destroyed destroyed or just locked in an endless loop now. The fact that Vol still remembers both and Narset found some hints of the alternate timeline makes me wonder if this is some Crisis on Infinite Tarkirs shit that will only be solved by Sarkhan doing some more time travel bullshit to unify the timeline or something
>>54958292
>Compleated Eldrazi vs Eldrazified Phyrexians
That would be some AvP "whoever wins we lose" tier bullshit. Could be fun though

>>54958891
Narset didn&apos;t discover an alternate timeline. Shu Yun had a scribe hide away the history of Tarkir during the Khanfall in a vault, since submitting to Ojutai had the condition that Ojutai would erase the history of all the previous, humanoid ruled clans, probably to brainwash people into believing dragons were their rightful rulers and make them easier to control, but mostly just to show us how nasty he was. Narset just discovered the vault<br>
containing all the history of Tarkir up intil the Khanfall, which included knowledge that in fact previously humanoids had ruled themselves. The fallback weve gotten to return to wedge clans was dissidents planted in all the dragon clans that remember the old ways.

>>54959492
Ah OK, I thought she'd dug up something about the alternate timeline, my mistake
But Sarkhan still remembers both and as of C17 we're getting cards of characters from both timelines, so I'm not quite sure how it works from a flavour perspective. Are there 'walkers out there who remember the old Clans and had to overcome their culture shock anew after seeing their twisted cousins?

>>54959587
She kinda did, but only in that sense that some point in the past there was a different clan called the Jeskai that was controlled by a humanoid Khan instead their Dragonlord Ojutai.

Also we know there was an alternate timeline so they can make cards acknowledging it. I dont think theres any storyline implication in that. But Im pretty sure it was explicitly said that only Sarkhan knew just to prevent any fuckery. That may change in the future if they think of a good story to tell about it, but for now the assumption is that in universe the only one who knows about the events of Khans of Tarkir is Sarkhan. Even Ugin didnt know that his spirit was the one driving Sarkhan to the nexus and change the timeline in the first place.

>>54956721
>RTR didn't really have much of a plot people gave a shit about far as I can tell.
RTR's plot was Niv-Mizzet putting up the largest game of American Ninja Warrior that has ever been seen.

>>54959587
We are those walkers that know. 100% serious.

>>54960222
That makes sense from a certain direction I suppose. Like as players we are the walkers that learned about the clans, decided to drop and see how things are going on and then had to scramble to adjust to a Dragon ruled, allied pair shifted Tarkir
>>54960206
Wasn't it originally Azor's Ultimate Ninja course? Or was Niv just the guy who set the ball in motion because he was angling for ultimate power as dragons normally do?

>>54960222
>players were always planeswalkers
>players were imune to the mending
>Bolas' late game is some meta shit about wanting to play mtg

>>54960407
The ultimate marketing scheme.

>>54960407
Only commander, legacy and vintage players were able to hold onto their old power. naihiri and obnix were already confirmed for commander though while bolas is definately a legacy player. The references to his tertiary (w,g) types matches up with how grixis plays there.

>>54960952
>Bolas is Legacy
>Nahiri and Soin are Commander
>Chain Lili and Elspeth are Modern
>Chandra and Jace are Frontier

This lines up way too well.

>>54961764
> all other nuwalkers are Casual

>>54962272
>casual
you mean standard :)

>>54938235
>swearing vengeance is now the same as stupid domestic fuckshitery

>>54962272
>Casual
That's OG Oldawalker where literally anything goes
>>54962769
That's Nuwalker post mending. obnoxious and weak

>>54952756
motherfucker
why don't mobis of them exist fuck

>>54960407
Bolas is the guy with a Legacy deck and probably a huge pile of Black Lotus cards that he wants to play again, but he's stuck in Standard and fucking hates it.