/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

Would it make sense to have a group of True Shifters based on plantlife?

>>54874162
Truth be told I can see them being Plantlife Shifters during TSW and also being sane.

In modern WtF they've become crazed monsters who turn into from nonliving wooden objects into twisting cracking masses of dead wood.

This only happened because their Patron Spirit went full Magath and the corruption within his Essence spread to them.

So the Shifters as a whole went from Alec Holland to Mr Wood.

>True Shifters
What?

>>54874002
That fucking 1920s Spiritualism Era one. Such a cool setting and instead all we get is "People were racist in the 20s And RACISM IS BAD".
No interesting twists for the splats, a couple options for Mortals if you're drunk, squint right and look at it in the right angle.
Nope, instead we get a tumblr level blogpost on why the 20s were mean.

>>54874002
Easy answer, Sundered World.

Most of the rest are just 'white people's favorite moments in history, the greatest hits'

Which Dark Eras are you most excited for?

Pirates and Brittania for me.

>>54875261
People who turn into things other than wolves. Like Helios and his Murderlizards.

>>54875261
I think he might be drawing a difference between them and skin stealers?

>>54875370
>Like Helios and his Murderlizards.
What?

What was Mage 1st like? Before Brucato?

>>54875391
He's talking about oWoD. They had other Shapeshifters, like Helios chosen - werelizards, of all sorts. No weredragons, but werekomodos were apparently fucking terrifying and the closest thing to a lindworm you'll ever run into.

They were basically the memory banks of Gaia.

>>54875409
Not that different to after, to be honest. It was always hit and miss.

>>54875385
Yes, that is definitely what I was doing.

Skin Stealers need some part of the animal to transform, True Shifters don't.

>>54875391
How can you not know about the Lizard Shifters of Helios?

Could you use one Shifting Sands spell after another to get arbitrarily far away in the past?

>>54875736
Before arch mastery you can only travel within your own lifespan.

>>54875391
Helio - the spirit of the sun. The thirsty god of the sky. A consistent ball of fury. Starter level 'crazy celestial spirit' (since all spirits from space are inherently alien and hard to understand).

In older games he had were lizards like Luna has werewolves. And instead of being based on phases of the moon, they were based on sun phases.

>>54875942
>they were based on sun phases.
Like what? Sunrise, noon, and sunset?

>>54876013
I think exactly that.

>>54875890
But you have no problem preventing whatever happened within your lifespan, are you?

>>54876349
Yeah, you can do that with Time. You can alter history and change things, although spamming Shifting Sands probably wouldn't be such a great way to do it.

Do the 2e books not have a recommendation of how much XP to give for character creation for different game levels like the 1e books do?

Next time someone sees DaveB's ragged ass, ask him why Mage spells don't add supernatural tolerance to withstand.

Between Gnosis + Arcana, and then sometimes having rotes to add a rote skill/or some other yantra. It seems more than enough to get through resistance + tolerance like the powers of most other creeps.

So it can't be that the dice pool would be too small right?

And isn't that exactly why 'supernatural tolerance' exists. To resist supernatural effects?

It is just odd. Maybe in practice it comes out the same, but it just seems like a pointless reversal of the usual rules.

Love,
someone trying to ST mage

>>54878592
Supernatural Tolerance adds to contested rolls (where you roll and the higher success wins) not to resisted ones (where you subtract a flat score from the dicepool as a difficulty).

You can't contest a mage building a spell in their own head. Withstand is *more* effective than resisted, as it reduces Potency, which means the caster either hopes for exceptional success or removes twice as many dice as he would if it were resisted.

In other news, Demon (among other games) has no way to resist its powers *at all*, and Werewolf is full of "I always win" gifts. For some goddamn reason, you don't see people bitching about those. why oh why could it be... Oh. Yeah. Mage.

If ST were added to withstand, mages would never be able to cast spells on one another. That is more important than crossover balance.

>>54879020
Vaguely on topic but something I've been meaning to ask for a while. Have you run D:tD outside of the general playtesting I assume you guys do at OPP, and if so how did it go? It seems like the type of game that was made for your style of GMing.

>>54879020
>no tripcode

Is this the real Dave?

>>54879551
No, it's 4chan.

>>54879551
It's his goatee sporting evil twin

Remind me, why is it that a lot of people dislike the Strix?

>>54879971
Because they look like owls but aren't actually.

Even when owls are heavily symbolic with vampirism around the world.

>>54879999

I'm actually unfamiliar with that second point. Any examples? That sounds interesting.

>>54875409
Get off your fat ass and go read it.

>>54875736
Demense and as many reaches as you like = up to your lifespan

>>54879999
>Even when owls are heavily symbolic with vampirism around the world.

More so in the West, as in Europe.

>>54880017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampires_in_popular_culture#Strix
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_(mythology)

>>54880017
>What is google?

>>54879906
>It's his goatee sporting evil twin
Dale? BevaD?

Rpgnet is said to be cancer, anybody willing to provide links to said cancer?

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>>54880329

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>>54879020
>>54879551
>Is this the real Dave?

Indeed it is. Here's some earlier DaveB Tripcode-confirmed pearls of wisdom about Withstand.

What sort of Gifts could a Spirit mage counter? And how many dots would it require?

>>54880502
A problem with withstand is spells which have a primary factor of potency for example "Annihilate Spirit" at base you are going to have 10 dice from gnosis and spirit with a base potency of 5 for just -2 dice you get potency 6 which is enough to destroy any rank 1-5 spirit. Thats right 8 dice needing 1 success.


If spirit masters arnt solving all spirit related problems in your games you have to ask yourself why? "Im busy" is just a lame excuse.

>>54880830
Spirit 2 counters all gifts. Read Ephemeral shield.

>>54879971
They're ok minor antagonists but they don't got enough going for them to be the central enemy splat.

>>54880884

For vampires, Strix are not a "minor" threat. Vampire abilities are ill-suited to deal with corpse-possessing sentient shadows.

>>54880830
The fucking werefags are going to start howling like bitches just because spirit 2 counters their stupid gift powers.

Wait for it.

>>54880904
They're too random and disorganized to form an existential threat to the leeches like the Pure do the Forsaken, the Seers do the Pentacle or the True Fae the Changelings.

>>54880982
Going body snatcher they can sure fuck your city up though, which is threat enough?

>>54880919
Probably. Last time Shielding was brought up they seemed to assume that just because Shielding is a two-dot practice that it shouldn't be as potent a defensive tool as it is, although Shielding spells generally won't be worth very much against more powerful supernatural attacks if they're cast by a Mage with the bare minimum, Gnosis 1 and Arcanum 2.

What do the Strix do to vampires? I know they body snatch but is that it? They would be cool in my book if they fed on vampires the way vampires feed on humans.

>>54881090
The Practices aren't as linear as some (most?) tend to believe, which is the big mistake here.

Each has a different purpose. Hell, the Practice of Knowing is extraordinarily powerful as is.

>>54881042
No, that's not even all that unique. Strix are dumb shadow spirits who have no collective goals or ambitions and are usually flat as a pancake as individual characters. It'd be like trying to make the Spirit-Claimed the headliners for Forsaken.

>>54881129
Strix terrify the Kindred because they possess the DEAD, not the living. They're also really good fucking actors.

It's like The Thing, when there's a Strix in town everyone is paranoid. Better call your local Moros.

>>54879020
This would be fine, BevaD, if spells were contested like most powers like them would be.

So now what, we have to assume a clash of wills around every corner so a powerful spirit/ghost doesn't get turned into a potatoe because it had half as many dice in defense of the mage's reality warping powers.

>>54881129
I dont think the strix are as dumb as you make out. Collective goal is to fuck with kindred which they are really good at.

>>54881186
Not much is going to clash vs a "fuck you" spell.
Spirits have "not fuck me" shielding numina do they?

Are you one of the retards who think clashes happen to everything? I use a supernatural power vs X so it gets to clash?

Unless a ghost/spirit has a numina directly opposing the spell they wont even get a clash.

>>54881194
Strix aren't a collective though, they don't have Strix club meetings like the Pure or the Seers or anything. >>54881148 has the right idea, you don't use Strix as the main bad guy, you drop them in to show how your Vamps have gotten complaisant with how their city goes and one body stealing demon pigeon fucks all that up.

They're cool enemies when a ST knows how to play them right.

>>54881233
That's the opposite of what that post says man.

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>>54875409
Okay, Grog here.

It was an unplayable mess. Kind of like M20 but a third of the page count and no one knew what to do with this shiny little toy that they'd created. Everything was a mess, the factions made no sense and technocrats were cartoon villains that made it so that vaccines really do give you autism (this didn't persist past first edition. I will cite sources. Fite me, faggit!)

I'm going to come right out and say it: Phil Brucato's worthlessness is a recent innovation, owing to the fact that he is apparently a huge joiner faggot, going along with anything novel and socially approved without ever thinking too critically about it.

He was not always this way. Uncle Phil retooled the game, starting with the Book of Shadows which was basically Mage 1.5. He gave it workable, though imperfect rules and retooled the Technocracy into believable villains and started laying the groundwork for this in The Book of Mirrors. In that time, he gave us the guide to the Technocracy, The Book of Mirrors, The Book of Chantries, The Book of Madness, Tales of Magick: Dark Adventure, The Orphan's Survival Guide and Infernalism: The Path of Screams. All excellent books and if you can ignore some early installment Wonk, they still hold up. Phil is the reason that the game was popular enough to create a massive fan backlash in the first place when he shit all over the bed with M20.

>>54881383
>(this didn't persist past first edition. I will cite sources. Fite me, faggit!)
Do it, I couldn't find the vaccine references when I looked.

>>54881463
Progenitors: First Edition.

>>54881485
Page number?

Promethean is the worst gameline

>>54881635
That's not Vampire.

Continuation of an earlier Hunter storytime.

After my players, playing as themselves, defended against a team of slashers, they realized that I wasn't present in the house anymore. After jokes about how I'm a shut in and that was typical, they tried to figure out why my room was empty, and what could be happening.

Then, I was there again. I can't even remember at this point how they realized something was 'off', but eventually they came to the conclusion that I was not my original self. So they kidnapped me, and began to continue their investigation.

After some coercion of the Not!Me, the players figure out that the actual one had been stolen and sent through a mirror in the room. They did the same, following the mirror through. It lead them into a world of thorns and strangeness, a gateway to the Hedge.

The best idea at the time seemed to be to follow the hedge, doing their best not to get lost. That quickly fell apart, the thorns doing their best to rip them apart no matter how careful they were. Eventually they looked for some place to rest, and found a little cottage in the hedge.

They knock at the little house's door, and an old lady greets them. She was happy to let them in, feed them, but she was a little too forceful in asking them to stay the night. Like, 'the door magically slamming in their face' forceful. They got ready to fight, but the old lady didn't seem to care about getting hurt. She was fast, but moved in an unnatural way.

One of them missed so hard that the knife they were carrying plunged into the wall, and the whole house trembled and groaned in the pain.

One of the other players immediately turned and stabbed the nearest wall before even waiting for further ST explanation of what was happening.

They were inside a giant 'angler fish' style monster house, the old nice woman the bait.

>>54881635
That ain't Geist.

>>54881635
That isn't Mage

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>>54881730
>>54881743
You two had better shut your whore mouths.

What's your favorite of the published Dark Eras?

Is there a reason why Mages are the best at magic in the WoD setting, old and new, and not fae related beings? Why are Changelings so weak? Not that the True Fae aren't ungodly powerful.

Why humans? Just look at Supernatural, fairies are better than witches.

>>54881635

It's actually the second best, just behind Changeling. The worst gamelines are Werewolf, Mage, and Beast.

>>54881970
>Supernatural
Why are you using a crap show as the basis for your asinine assumption?

>>54881970
>Why are Changelings so weak?

Because changelings are the house slave runaways of the big stronk magic fairies. They aren't supposed to be powerful.

>>54881970
Magical wizard-like casting isn't the central identity of Changeling design, that's really all.

Changelings are good at contracts, bargains. The sort of stuff Brownies and Fae do to get what they want. They are living Monkey's paws.

But for donald duck style I AM A WIZARD, you go to a sorcerer, not a fairy.

>>54881970
What are you saying? That you want Changelings to be stronger than Mages or better at magic and therefore stronger?

>>54882040
>But for donald duck style I AM A WIZARD, you go to a sorcerer, not a fairy.
Anon please. This is an entirely inaccurate description.

It's Daffy. Daffy Duck.

>>54882040
>Magical wizard-like casting isn't the central identity of Changeling design
This is false. Just look at the Autumn Court. Changelings as a whole are instinctively magical by nature.

>>54882046
Basically? Why should unmagical humans be better at something certain species live and breath?

>>54881970
You remind me of those D&D idiots complaining that human wizards are better than elven wizards in both gameplay and lore.

>>54882084
>Why should unmagical humans be better at something certain species live and breath?
I have also read Dresden Files. But Changelings aren't Fae with a capital F, anon. True Fae, as they are in these settings, are more powerful than human Mages when they're in Arcadia.

>>54882084
>Changelings as a whole are instinctively magical by nature.
Isn't a huge theme of Changeling learning to cope with your new magical existence?

>>54882083
Wow, I'm tired. Yeah Daffy Duck, not Donald.

>>54882084
Mages DO live and breathe magic. It permeates their entire existence. That's the problem. Changelings AREN'T faeries. they're humans twisted by faeries into magically warped, corrupted beings. The real faeries are the True Fae, and they will fuck up Mages just fine.

What splats would actually fix physical disabilities when the character goes from human to supernatural?

>>54882113
>>54882135
Yeah. Except even Archmages overdo them. It irks me. You eventually reach a point where humans are just better, and it's bothersome.

I'm fine with Mages being powerful, I just think Changeling has more rights on a "Magic!" theme than Awakening.

>>54882212
Archmages really aren't important to the setting. They are their own level of play, and best ignored.

They may as well not exist for how often they do anything in the fluff.

>>54882212
> Except even Archmages overdo them
No do they fucking do not. Within Arcadia the Gentry are absolutely omnipotent. They're the most powerful beings in the WoD setting when they're in Arcadia.

>>54881996

>Beast

Am I the only person who genuinly enjoy BtP? from the lurking i did it seems to be the case....

>>54882202
I believe Werewolves first change can. They go from whatever problems they were having to just being big angry woofmans.

Have cerebral palsy? Screw that, now you look like Peter Parker after he wakes up from getting bit by the spider.

>>54882261

What's to enjoy about it?

>>54882261
*checks records*
Yes

>>54882212
Archmages are human only by a pretty loose definition of the word. At high levels of Gnosis you become detached from the mundane on an inherent level, and they don't even age right. Or maybe not at all, I forget how that bit works. They also become basically gods of their own little realm. And as an anon just pointed out, a True Fae in Arcadia is still insanely powerful and can be much stronger than an Archmage.

>I just think Changeling has more rights on a "Magic!" theme than Awakening.
You are of course entitled to this opinion. I don't really understand it, but you are entitled to it.

>>54882244
Archmages do exist in the canon. They're in the canon. Merlin. The Corpus Author. The King who Is a Throne. They're all pivotal to certain facets of the lore.

>>54882248
That's not a pissing match you want to have.

The reality is that The Gentry are gods in their realm through most of the power level of the game.

But the top end of Mage takes on gods. So while most archmages couldn't take on a True Fae that wanted to rumble. An absolute 'my hips are ascending on their own' Archmage would still be able to maybe.

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>he says true fae can beat an obsessed archmage

>>54882276
Thanks at least no more doubt now :)

>>54882270
Read it, like it, can't explain, why, maybe i got shitty tast I supose? the power fantasy is probably why if i'm honest with myself, City Wide Terror born from your own urban legend maybe? can be done with any gameline i suppose, but still, can't help going back every few month to read it and make charachter, never ran any campaign tho, too much on my plate already.

>>54882301
Not really.

Can you play Mage without knowing any of them?
Can you play a full campaign without any of them coming up?
Will they have to show up or be mentioned in a Mage game?

Then they aren't pivotal.

You know who is Pivotal in lore? Father Wolf, Mother Luna, the God Machine.

>>54882324
I think he means that Archmages are in fact canon based on the lore. And by "facets" he means certain settings like pre-deleted Camelot or the backstory of the Mysterium.

>>54882324
He said pivotal to certain parts, not the main premise of the entire game.

>>54882350
Yeah, they exist. But it is like worrying about what the Avengers are off doing while reading a street level comicbook.

They are off facing world-crushing threats, or off in space saving the galaxy. Your comic is about a guy stopping a mugging.

Archmages aren't important because they just aren't in the same game world as much as it matters.

[Warning: Comicbook metaphors never hold completely true. The Avengers have focused on street level threats, and many street level heroes like Spider-man have ended up recruited for world-romping adventures. Don't think too long.]

>>54882248
>Within Arcadia the Gentry are absolutely omnipotent.
>They're the most powerful beings in the WoD setting when they're in Arcadia.

Is that you King's Raven? Overestimating your precious Gentry again, are we?

>>54874162
The kami pretty much fit that description in WW:tA, though they can be a variety of things.
>>54875370
>>54875391
>>54875441
>>54875486
>>54875942
the lizards were called Mokolé
Shapeshifters as a whole are called fera or changing breeds.

inb4 "muh gentry can cast archmage magic tooooo"

>>54882482
But they can. They can cast supernal magic up to seven dots

>>54882482
It probably isn't even their fault.

I bet a Mage book gave them supernal magic.

I don't remember them having it in Equinox Road.

>>54882510
Where is this from, even?

>>54882524
Actually the 1e changeling books directly suggesting using the Practices from Mage as Changeling powers, with their contracts functioning as 'Spheres' for what those practices can effect.

>>54882565
Errr not Spheres, arcana. I've been dealing with OWoD lately.

>>54882565
So if a Changeling had a contract for fire powers, but they could do stuff like shield themselves from fire, shield with fire, form fire, attack with it, etc?

>>54882581
Do you need help?
Blink twice if you want us to rescue you from oWoD.

>>54882524
The Gentry don't have access to Imperial Magic. Those charts were going off of old editions back from the White Wolf days.

They don't have the same rules in Equinox Roads because that's the actual definitive book showcasing what they can do.

Other than the obvious spirits, Imperial Mysteries has made 6+ seem more powerful than they actually are.

>>54882562
Imperial Mysteries.

>>54879971
Because they're an awful, story ruining trope given just enough fluff and vampire flavoring to trick storytellers into adding them into their stories and ruin them.

Look past all the fluff about Strix and what is left?An antagonist that literally cannot be defeated by the players without metagaming.

It is entirely impossible to make a story with an undefeatable enemy interesting; and entirely more possible to ruin your story by revealing that behind all the mysteries your players have been uncovering or all the actions against them have come from an enemy that they have no legitimate agency to defeat and will have to rely entirely on the storyteller handing them the solution on a plate to solve.

>>54882616
No, For true fae. Jesus. Everything i wrote was a disaster.

>>54882621
I sure need rescuing from something, but its probably just substance abuse.

>>54882761
I forgive you, anon.

>>54880034
Why would you need infinite Reaches, when you can just cast again and again, getting far in the past?

>>54882202
In oWoD? Demons. They could be blind, missing a limb or two, but when they transform to their Angelic Form they regain what they have lost for one scene. If they have lost a limb it will just regrow in a magical way (I Like to imagine them as pure energy). Also, when making contracts they can fix disabilities with ease by "editing" the soul of a subject.

What can True Fae do in Equinox Roads that's different from Imperial Mysteries?

How would god rank spirits act in their own book?

>>54882921
That would be pretty slow and unreliable going. Even instant casting still takes a turn, iirc correctly, and as a Disciple that would be Reach you don't have, and as an Adept it would be the only Reach you have. And you wouldn't be getting a good amount of successes with no Yantras, which means you're getting little Potency, which means not a lot of turns you go back in time. Subtracting the turns you do get by one for the instant casting.

>>54883034
Not shitting up every /wodg/ with their faggotry for example

>>54883057
>as a Disciple that would be Reach you don't have, and as an Adept it would be the only Reach you have
Rotes, man. Also, as Adept you will have two Reaches - one for Instant Casting, and one for going back a full scene.

>not a lot of turns you go back in time
>+1 Reach: The subject travels back a full scene. This Reach effect may be applied multiple times.
You go back by scenes, not turns.

>>54883094
>as Adept you will have two Reaches
Isn't it determined by spell dot rating minus Arcanum rating? And doesn't that Reach effect mean you go back a scene for every time you allocate Reach to it, not by Potency?

>>54883034
Equinox Road is about rising to the power level of being able to gear up, go back into Arcadia, and kick your keeper in the balls. But doing so requires nearly becoming a True Fae yourself.

The main stuff I remember (I think that was Equinox Road) was that it built up the idea of True Fae being more an onion of titles.

Your True Fae Keeper may have looked like a giant chess piece with a crown, living in a world of varying game boards, carrying a giant pole arm/lance, and wearing a cool fluffy royalty cape.

But as far as Arcadia is concerned they are 'Blah, Grandmaster of Games, Emperor of the First Move, Wielder of the Knight's Charge, The Black King.'

Every single part of that title is their identity, and every part of it gives them more and more power.

In their realm in Arcadia, when you are walking around their giant boardgame themed castle, you are walking in them. They are the castle, they are the polearm, they are the crown, they are the giant chess piece. You need to destroy every piece, take away every title, before you can hope to make that True Fae stop existing.

Doing that is easier said than done inside their own realm.

Sometimes, a single True Fae is actually TWO True Fae. Nemesis or twins, living as rivals to each other, but actually being one being whose story and existence is built around the idea of two people who are rivals to each other.

Like if you bump into a Sun and Moon rival pair of True Fae, they are probably the same Fae, playing an eternal game against itself.

>>54883138
>Sometimes, a single True Fae is actually TWO True Fae.
By your description, don't you have this backwards? That two True Fae might in fact just be one?

What are the powers of a Demon going Loud? What makes them so powerful?

>>54883138
Why not just put all of these rules into Imperial Mysteries if they don't actually use archmage magic?

>>54883135
>Isn't it determined by spell dot rating minus Arcanum rating?
>A character receives a free Reach — which does not add Paradox dice — per dot of her highest-rated Arcanum that meets or exceeds the spell’s requirement. For example a mage with four dots of the Time Arcanum gains two free Reaches when casting a spell that requires Time 3.
So Time Adept will have two free Reaches for casting Time 3 spell, which Shifting Sands is.

>And doesn't that Reach effect mean you go back a scene for every time you allocate Reach to it, not by Potency?
Yes, but that's the thing - fuck Potency. Who cares about going back for 3-4 turns, when you can go back by scene? Just cast Shifting Sands with +1 Reach repeatedly.

>>54883157
Correct sir.

>>54881508
>>54881485
>>54881463
>>54881383
I'm looking through this book and i can't find the autism reference. WHere is ittttt

>>54883174
>>A character receives a free Reach — which does not add Paradox dice — per dot of her highest-rated Arcanum that meets or exceeds the spell’s requirement
So you get a free Reach for being at that rank, and then as you advance you get +1 for each new dot. Okay. Thanks, that was something I wasn't always clear on.

>>54883161
I wish I could answer your question. But for some reason /tg/ thinks my response is spam.

>>54883161
Let me try again.

They go into demonic form. Go to primum 10. Gain all the embeds in their tree of powers. Gain all exploits. And get full Aether (their mana).

>>54883168
Because they didn't want to put five-hundred more words into an already small book?

It might as well have been called "The Big Book of Gods:

>>54883168
Because Imperial Mysteries is a book for Mages.
Equinox Road is a book for Changelings.

Different strokes for different folks.

Mages fight enemies that also use supernal magic, because that's what their ST and players have learned.

>>54883360
I think they're irked because Imperial Mysteries makes the assumption that non-Supernal beings use Supernal magic. Which isn't the case lorewise.

>>54883422
It didn't. It just gave a system for interpreting their powers through the same lens. Much as I'd like "Spirit: The Spiriting, we're rank 10, fuck all of you, except for best girl Gate-chan" as a book they aren't going to put it out.

>>54883422
Well I mean, we know that non-supernal beings can.

Pangeans do.

>>54883446
Except why have two completely different sets of rules in two completely different splat books?

>>54883463
Pangeans are the *only* beings not solely from Mage to use Supernal magic. They're kind of a special case.

>>54883465
Because STs are going to be lazy.

>>54883465
Different splats, different lines. If it's a crossover game they've somehow made work, then the ST, presumably not being a complete idiot, will pick the rules they like best and make those work.

>>54883161
A power stat of 10, Aether bar filled up to 100, gain a bunch of health back, and can use every Embed (power) that corresponds to their origin splat.

Notable combat embeds include Knockout Punch (1 hit KO), Just Bruised (all damage reduced to 1 bashing), and Merciless Gunman (one shot one kill for every bullet in the magazine).

>>54883465
Because while you can tell your players to go to a neutral book (go read the rules in the Core Rulebook), you would have a riot if you required them to go to another game line's book.

That's why that kind of stuff is usually optional, and comes with rules to just use whatever game line you are in.

For instance, the Witch Hunter book saying 'yeah you could use Mage to make witches, but here are these easier powers instead.'

Changing Breeds gave you the option to give shifters magic. But you could just as easily give them gifts or numina.

Actually Changing Breeds is a bad example because it is technically a blue book, not a werewolf book, I think. But its rules assume you have like two other game line books.

>>54883520
Okay, to be fair, Changing Breeds' magic was a complete shit fight because they removed any limiters, even if it only went up to 3 dots.

>>54883532
It was also super expensive.

Can you imagine paying merit dots for every spell you want to cast?

It would probably actually balance Mage!

>>54883554
You mean buying rotes?

>>54883572
Rotes are upgrading a spell, not buying it.

A shifter doesn't get Arcana, they get a specific spell. Like, you could buy Mage Sight (which was a spell back then). You can't just buy 1 dot in Fate, you would buy Fate's Mage Sight.

No creative thamaturgey. No rotes to make the spell better. You got the basic version of a particular spell you bought.

Rotes are 'this spell, but better!'. While the mage gets every possibility under the sun for their particular arcana dots.

And as for 'cost'. Most Mage spells don't even have a cost connected if you are flinging from your primary arcana.

Changing Breeds magic sucked.

>>54883554
Oh, I know. It was still disgusting. And only most of changing breeds sucked. I really liked their werebeast creation system.

>>54883731
I use it still to create simple werebeasts. Too bad the fluff makes people hate it so much, because now they probably won't make an updated system for 2e.

One of my games had a pack of Coyote shifters wander into town. The players murdered two, dated one, and shipped one and another PC.

Made fun temporary antagonists.

What's your favourite (VTM) clan society structure/weakness? Why?

Changeling 2e finally entered post-editing development.

Maybe it will come out before we all die in a nuclear holocaust.

>>54884660
>Maybe it will come out before we all die in a nuclear holocaust.

What if we're all irradiated mutants?

>>54884680
>irradiated mutants

def a changeling, maybe a deviant.

>>54884692
Unless the radiation revives you from death. In which case you are a promethean or a geist.

Hey legacy anon, how goes the Cwwn Awnn

What happens when a Mage turns his/her Inferior Arcanum into a Ruling Arcanum through a Legacy?

Anything interesting?

>>54884855
Nope. Just has no inferior arcanum now.

The Counsilium hires your cabal to bring a fellow mage to justice.

They've been using Fate 1 to peep on sleepers using the bathroom.

That's it, but everyone finds it sufficiently creepy that you need to go tell them to cut it out.

>>54885209
fate 1? wut? Id tell him to use an actual arcana that can peep on people like space or time, maybe matter to make walls see through but fucking fate 1? What are you smoking??

>>54885250
It is pretty much written into Oath Fulfilled.
Set a trigger event.
1 Reach gives you vision of them when they trigger the event.
Another reach lets you know where to find them if you want to continue the peeping.

>>54885209
Use space and prime to fuck with their spells so it reroutes onto someone who's an exhibitionist.

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What is he?

>>54885209
I dont know what you want.

If its breaking the Lex then you go tell him to cut it out. Thats all. If he doesnt stop, you take his soul out and make sure he cant do it anymore.

>>54885356
>Remove a mages soul for misuse of Initiate level magic.

Get a load of Mr. Guardian of the Veil over here.

>>54885349
An asshole. You don't need to be a supernatural to be one.

>>54885349
Just a mortal dick.
Under the manipulation of a Seer cult.

>>54885372
Professional Lunatic is something everyone should want on their tax returns.

>"I mean, quite frankly, I’ve been to these events, a lot of the KKK guys with their hats off regarder like they’re from the cast of 'Seinfeld.' Literally they’re just Jewish actors. Nothing against Jews in general, but they are leftist Jews that want to create this clash and they go dress up as Nazis. I have footage in Austin — we’re going to find it somewhere here at le bureau — where it literally looks like cast of 'Seinfeld' or like Howard Stern in a Nazi outfit. They all regarder like Howard Stern. They almost got like little curly hair down, and they’re just up there heiling Hitler. You can tell they are totally uncomfortable, they are totally scared, and it’s all just meant to create the clash."

>>54885365
Hey if you warn him and he ignores you with simple magic, you dont want him ignoring you when he gets to the big stuff.

Nip it in the bud.

Can anyone tell me what the 'metaplot' behind the 1e Clanbooks and the Armonium is? Or is that just it "Whee, we found a magic music box"?

Kind of amazing how quick Changeling 2E went through the publishing stages when they gave it to Rose

>>54886556
Is Rose rewriting the book or is he just butchering it?

>>54886703
both

You know I have the perfect summary of the Mokole when the Metaplot finally started happening.
>"I did something!"

Considering most of the Fera spent the gameline not being relevant or getting killed by the Garou because the Garou Nation is headed by a bunch of FUCKING MORONS!...that's probably an achievement somehow.

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>>54875347
Pirates and WWI

Geist content all the way, bro.

>>54887519
And then you died, and the planet became an Amnesiac. Moreso. Hooray!

>>54886703
Don't know. Don't care so long as the book gets done

>>54885356
>>54885365
>If its breaking the Lex then you go tell him to cut it out. That's all. If he doesn't stop, you take his soul out and make sure he cant do it anymore.

Hold on..., was the mage peeping on Sleepers or actual people. If it's the former, it's not different than watching your dog take a dump. If it's the latter, particularly other mages, it definitely an abuse of magic that requires a stern warning to stop, and without compliance, demonstrable punishment. However, soul loss might be a bit extreme. It's not like the mage is revealing supernal secrets to the Sleeper rabble.

>>54888343
Mysterium pls

>>54888343
>Sleepers or actual people.

Are vampires, woofs and changelings considered "people" by Mysterium standards?

>>54888437
no

>>54888437
They aren't considered people by anyone's standards.

>>54886556
Rose does the paperwork so the writers actually get paid which motivates them a lot quicker because they have guaranteed pay check.

>>54887519
>>54888055
The entire game line of Werewolf: Apocalypse
Woe is Me: Genocide Apologists edition

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>>54888437
>Are vampires, woofs and changelings considered "people" by Mysterium standards?
No. But they do make for interesting subjects, willing or otherwise.

>>54888659
I see that Harry and Ron finally got the hang of the fusion dance.

>>54888701
Maybe together they can form a whole, actual person. With an interesting personality and everything!

>>54888701
You mean the lesbian sex?

>>54888437
>Are vampires, woofs and changelings considered "people" by Mysterium standards?

They're "people" only to the extent they do not cause Pancryptia and aren't a threat to magic in the world.

However, people or otherwise, as they are not Awakened, and thus are, at best, test subjects in the pursuit of Mysteries, and at worst, extremely dangerous and unpredictable, and should be dispatched at the earliest opportunity (particularly those parasitic vampires).

>>54888437
Only Awakened are considered people by Mysterium standards. Or more likely, by certain hubristic low-Wisdom fuckups in the Mysterium.

>>54888990
Why did you say the same thing twice?

>>54889053
Because all Orders have decent people and not entirely filled by hubristic low-Wisdom fuckups?

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Finally got around to doing a quick colored mockup of one of my Beast NPCs that I have for a campaign that I've been running on and off.

An Anakim with hunger of the hoard, she tries to collect people's skin to add to her "skin quilt". She has a large sewing needle attached to the end of some of her hair. She's in a brood with a Namtaru with a hunger for prey who likes to chase people through his labyrinth environmental tilt apartment complex. That guy is basically a cloaked wraith with eyes all over his body holding a lantern.

Their preferred method of hunting is the Namtaru slowly chasing a victim through seemingly winding endless halls (usually just slowly enough so you can see the pale blue glow of his lantern around the corner behind you). While the Anakim occasionally reaches an arm or moves her face towards a window, door or stairway to block it off and attempt to pluck off some skin before letting you go (depending on what they are dealing with).

They were set up to be either neutral to the party or antagonistic at worst. One of the players was definitely making an antagonistic stance towards them in-game.

>>54889053
>>54889093

I don't believe it takes "hubristic low-Wisdom fuckup" to at least consider undead, immortal parasites like a vampires to not be accorded the rights and respect of "people."

>>54889208
>to collect people's skin to add to her "skin quilt"

>"It puts the lotion on it's skin, or else it gets the hose again."

Someone has been watching too much Silence of the Lambs

>>54889312
But it does take a hubristic low-Wisdom fuck up to consider that only Awakened are people.

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>>54889341
If it works it works. They wanted an game with investigation in it so I figured a little silence of the lambs inspiration couldn't hurt. Guess it helped with those two beasts being crooked investigators.

>>54883818
I'm probably gonna give you the edge lord answer but I'm gonna say Tzimisce. But Dark Ages, degenerate nobility Tzimisce.

>>54889940
Tzimisce are objectively the best VTM Clan. You have good taste, anon

What are the limits of time travel in Time 1-5 Mage 2e? Could you concievably send someone back 'as they are' to carry on with life? Think of it like Life on Mars, but without the weird heaven theme and more 'dump them in another part of the world before their birth'?

>>54889940
>Peasant revolt?
>Wake nearby volcano!

Changeling 2e when?

All I can think of when I see Mage Armors that add to defense (stuff like Death are fine) is that Defense in 2e is already bad enough.

It would be next to impossible to hit any Fate arcana having mage with anything but a mental or magical attack.

Even a bad mage would probably have 5 defense, and any actual Fate mage is looking at 6+, even against guns (the usual counter to the 'why is Defense in 2e so stupid high question).

Which I guess is fine for a mage to be able to completely counter a certain type of offense. But man does it suck for encounter writing if X mage will just never get hit by physical damage.

>>54890658
It actually probably would have been out as an advanced preview pdf by the end of the month or next month, but with the kickstarter they're doing for it, it probably won't be until october or november at soonest due to them holding it back.

>>54890674
Magical attacks use defense too, usually. Unless you're using the Fast Spells merit. But yeah, most Magicians are utterly immune to your average mortal without any real effort, they can just let their defense reduce everything to chance dice.

>>54890774
The only real saving grace here I guess is that the change to damage means that there is a 1/10 chance that the mage is still taking a chunk of damage.

You roll that 10, and they will take the damage from the weapon. They can get rid of that in some way, but still. I guess the plan for mortals should be to play it like Imperial Guard. Put enough shots down field, and hopefully someone fails one of their invuln rolls and dies.

>>54890839
Does Mage Armour even cause paradox?

>>54890864
Nope mage is fucking bullshit

>>54890839
What change to damage?

>>54890897
Sorry, 'change to damage' is a bad way to put it.

In 1e, weapon damage added to the dice roll to hit.
So a gun with a damage rating of 2L, would just give you two more dice on the attack, possibly just being soaked by the person's defense, but giving you a better chance to hit.

But now weapons don't give those bonus dice. Instead, if you DO hit, the damage rating of the weapon gives automatic additional successes equal to that rating. So that +2 damage from the gun won't add to the dice pool, but once you hit it will deal 2 damage on top of any extra successes you get.

So a chance die hitting on a 10 would try to deal the 1 success in damage, +2 from the gun.

>>54890949
Since 'Soak' is the name of a mechanic in oWoD, I really should stop using it to mean 'absorb' while in in Wodg.

>>54890949
Oh. Yeah, that I saw. I was thinking there was some sort of new mechanic. Ta.

So, I've been out of the loop since Hurt Locker came out. Anything interesting pop up for CofD since then or are we dead again?

>>54890774
>Magical attacks use defense too,

Sensory attacks ignore Defense and Dodge. Against mages, Defense additives and even armor are often useless.

However, recall that within the Mage setting, Mages are considered to be armed an dangerous at all times and detente is based on mutually assured destruction. Favored defenses, while often fantastic against a fairly broad category of attacks, are still not usually strong or varied enough against the types of damages available to other mages.

Mage Armors and the Shielding Practice make mages, no less a cabal or if they're prepared, absolutely terrifying in mundane combat. Crossover was never a consideration in the design of Mage 2e,and if you still insist on crossover under canon rules, direct physical assaults usually amount to little more than suicide by wizard.

>>54891197

Secrets of the Covenants and A Thousand Years of Night were released for Requiem. The consensus on both books range from meh to they sucked. The former was virtually all mediocre fluff, and the latter was an editorial nightmare that did little to nothing to make elders more frightening.

>>54891249
I'll have to take a look. Thanks. polite sage (if that still does anything)

>>54891221
I don't understand why people are so dismissive of discussion here. That's why this general is so often trash.

You know what happens if someone brings up some topic that 'was never intended in design' in say 40k general? People talk about it anyway, knowing that it is going to happen in the game, and you may as well talk about it.

But no, since 'crossover was never considered' we may as well zip our lips and pretend no game will have a mage fighting guys with guns, no ST will ever need to make an encounter like that interesting to their players. Nevermind guys, never happens, everyone can pack up and go home.

Jeez man, just relax and have fun with it.

It's ok to be envious of magefags

>>54891276
"Guys with guns" is way, way low on the list of things you can face in Mage. Approach it from that standpoint and it's dull. Approach it from the other way, and you'll just get a bunch of replies detailing the way a Mage can obliterate guys with guns. This general isn't shit because it dismisses things like crossovers. Things get much, much shittier when crossover is discussed.

Alright, they are here and in full force.

Time to just change topics since we can't talk about Mages.

What was the coolest spirit you've ever created or faced for a Werewolf game?

>>54891514
Our Pack once fought a Thyrsus. We died horribly.

But it was 'cool' so it was ok.

Speaking of shitty crossovers, how are your/your ST's in-universe worlds constructed? How well do they adhere to the vague fluff provided in the books?

In cross-overs particularly, I sort of enjoy a setting where Mages are extremely rare, so much so that there's almost no mage society at all, with the diamond orders and council closer to a consilium than a vast overarching sect.

In this way, those mages that do exist may find playing it safe necessary not only because they are few in number, but also because they can't find tutors and mentors or anyone to share merit dots in sanctum (and so on) or perhaps even teach them about wisdom and paradox.

>>54891276
>crossover was never considered'

No, crossover was never a design priority. There's a difference. Mage mechanics were designed and implemented to emphasize and reinforce the setting and theme of Mage 2e, and it alone. Artificial limitations, particularly in the Arcana and Practices were removed for consistency, even if that meant mages might be "stronger" than other splats under certain circumstances. For instance, Mages with Forces can now control gravity and Mages with Life can affect humans as early as the first dot in the respective Arcanum. That makes mages terrifying opponents in the event of canon crossover play, but is maintains the verisimilitude of the Mage setting. Lastly, what seems overpowered from the perspective of vampire or werewolf fans, is not particularly impressive with respect the the usually much higher powered adversaries encountered by mages.

>>54891276
>no game will have a mage fighting guys with guns,


When mage antagonists normally consist of anti-reality horrors, demigods, other mages and other horrible things beyond mortal comprehension, thugs with guns really don't rate as dangerous adversaries.

Mage is not a street-level game. That is neither good, nor bad, it is simply a design choice that some will like and other will not. It good to have different choices and tiers of play in the CofD. Also, mages are not the only A-list supers. Dave often places Demons and Mummies in the same general category. If only there were more Demon and Mage fans, there might be more complaints...

>>54891514
I once had a spirit of jealousy and flowers mess with a town that had a yearly garden contest in their affluent suburb. Pretty much, the spirit continued to screw with them so they would make bigger and more elaborate gardens, and hate on each other more and more.

Eventually, the spirit took the situation into their own hands, entering the material and possessing one of the contestants, using her to physically attack and mutilate.

Like usual, it didn't end well for either of them. The flower spirit turned the woman into a terrible abomination, and she was put down by the PC pack.

>>54891514
>coolest spirit

Komodo Spirits

>>shudder<<

>>54891249
And worst of all, they had literally no new or updated bloodlines. The only one that was officially presented in a book was the Morbus in the Dark Eras companion, and it didn't follow the same "template" of the couple they posted on their site, which makes attempts to make homebrews fall a bit flat.

>>54891725
Is this going to be a DaveB joke, or did you actually have some awesome komodo spirits?

>>54891276
Fuck you butt hurt changeling fag. Fate shits on changelings get over it

>>54891827
... What?

>>54891827
Isn't the meme that it's woofs that get mad about it? I think most people who play Changeling are used to being near the bottom of the totem pole power-wise. That could just be me, though.

>>54885250
So, anyone have any cool Geist and Keystone Memento ideas?

>>54891514
Who is here? Where?

>>54886556
You mean after those months and months of nothing that could have been avoided by paying hill?

>>54891901
People constantly underestimate Changelings here. They're stronger than vampires and can match mages in certain areas.

>>54892002
People who can't have a normal discussion without complaining about/bragging about how none of it matters because of mages. Both are equally terrible, both are this threads greatest enemy, both are magewank.

>>54891781
>Is this going to be a DaveB joke, or did you actually have some awesome komodo spirits?

Sadly, it was just a DaveB joke.

However, I would be surprised if spirits of role-playing games and social maladjustment looked surprisingly like Komodo Dragons...

>>54892053
>changelings > vampire
>changelings = mages

I want to believe you, but I just can't.

>>54892053
>They're stronger than vampires and can match mages in certain areas.

Not in 1e, and who know about 2e given all the DavidH shenanigans.

However, I will graciously concede that changelings probably have better fashion sense and are more fun at human parties that either mages or vampires.

>>54892054
Who was bragging? I just stated a fact. Guys with guns are lame discussion materials for Mages, and I said essentially what you said. That people on both sides would be getting riled up.

This is like arguing that Breaking Bad is better than Game of Thrones. It's not. But you will never reach a consensus.

>>54892190
Breaking Bad is totally better than Game of Thrones, you plebeian.

>>54892210
Except it's not

>>54892210
The first two seasons of GoT were good. But goddamn is that series shit now.

>>54892210
Breaking Bad went 'bad' after the first season.

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>>54891953
Well I'm the Geist guy that did Tito and his Geist. Whipped up a few Geist ideas in the game setting he was in.

We had a Geist named Piano man that was a serial killer that used to make pianos back in Mozart era. While he had a habit of killing people whenever he would deliver his pianos. Ultimately it was his work that killed him in the end when he slipped and got crushed by one of his pianos he was delivering.

As a Geist he had piano key teeth, a busted in nose resembling the shape of a piano wire and piano wire sticking out of his fingers and wrapped around his back, making his arms look like they were tied back as if he were in a straight jacket.

He specialized in doing Industrial and Phantasmal marionettes and activating either would have his hands release from being tied down and he would try to puppet master things around with the piano wires animating from his finger tips.

Since we made him antagonistic, he would generally try to force control over things, including his current host, leading of course to rapid synergy loss, being a psychotic control freak and all. He had a habit of running through quite a few Sin-Eaters before ditching them and moving on to the next bargain.

That being said we totally used him as a player's Geist once to see how long it would take the player to notice what he was trying to do.

There was a drawing of him I had somewhere a few years ago but I think it's long gone.

>>54892235
>>54892243
Hipster trash assholes

Get out

>>54892113
>However, I would be surprised if spirits of role-playing games and social maladjustment looked surprisingly like Komodo Dragons...
The two are quite close, so you probably wouldn't get much Magathery.

Also like to think that Komodo (the Pangean) buggered off into the Anima Mundi when things started going south around 50'00BCE And he's been hanging out there ever since.

His Saliva foams with Omphalos Vapors and gives Supernal Revelations...at the cost of making you trip balls.

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>>54892257
>Just because something is popular means it's amazing.
>Twilight and Transformers are cinematic masterpieces you filthy hipster

>>54892257
>>54892331

It's cool to hate popular things, even when such things are deserving of the praise.

>>54892331
>Transformers
I now want to make a group of CofD Shifters that turn into machines, just to spite you.

Instead of Changing Breeds they'd be Changing Gears.

Eh? EH?

>>54892402
>Instead of Changing Breeds they'd be Changing Gears.
But seriously they'd be the lovechild of Transformers, Hot Wheels: Battle Force 5 and...Turbo Teen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFuV_8LoHD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzWhHGzcbNU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j18e_ID-DpA

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>>54885349
Probably just a mortal hunter catching wind of the traditions and technocracy because if you'll note he has equal disdain for the NWO as he does with verbena-like pagans
Honestly it's probably a game to some of them to send him false info, semi-correct stuff that makes him look like an idiot to others in the know, or just straight up truth to keep the other side on their toes

Speaking of, have any of you ever taken advantage of a mundane radio talk show host or other such media figures for fun or plot reasons? With shit like Coast to Coast, Ancient Aliens, and Infowars it must be used a lot in WoD, if you give a good story I might throw it into my campaign

I had a thought. Wouldn't there be some real merit to a straight, 1 to 1 self-insert game? Just "I become X splat". I think this because of how personal it would make a lot of the fucked up things in the setting. Like concealing your identity becomes a bigger deal because your family in the game is your family in real life, and if you aren't careful they could be targeted by your enemies. Your wife could be mindraped by Seers. Your seven year old niece you were using as a touchstone got eaten by that bloodline that eats people. And are you really going to cheat on your girlfriend with that nympho from the Spring Court? We all know her, dude.

Which leads to the other thing, seeing what your friends do when handed that kind of power. Not even specifically talking about Mages here either.

>>54893387
>playing yourself in a roleplaying game
Why not just live my normal life where i have to hide everything I do because I live on the internet? No need to do it twice.

>>54893162
No, but I did have a message board in one game. Players could post stuff up on there for a hope of info, and people on there would also have questions. Contact dots could be established with the users on there.

>redneck hunters
https://youtu.be/I1Js9DkESqY?t=342

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Why do I relate to clan tzimisce so much? Am I fucked in the head? I have always wanted to be more than human and there whole clan and path of metamorphosis appeals to me.

>>54893837
You wish you were a chick, that's why you relate so much.

>you will never turn your penis into a vagina

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WoD PCs often clash with the cops. From calling in anonymous tips to torching crime scenes, from anti-surveillance measures to high-speed chases, from fast-talking a delicate situation to gun battles right in a police station, the police are there as the mundane world's pushback against trouble. The police are reactive.

A city police department has some interesting hooks if PCs are in it. It has to run patrols all over its city and investigate crimes. It has to question people and sometimes arrest them. It has to work smoothly with other authorities. It has to answer to city government, the media, community leaders, and the public. It has to hold itself accountable through an Internal Affairs department. It has to gracefully step aside for federal agencies. It has to follow the law and keep extensive records. It has to back up its criminal cases solidly enough that they win in court.

They already published an official supplement about cops called Tales from Precinct 13. You could run a conventional police game with it, but this being WoD, player character cops will probably run into the supernatural. It's the usual cops vs. freaks, but flips which side has the main characters. Now your players are deciphering the weird crime scene leavings, radioing ahead to cut off a fleeing car, and pouring shotgun blasts into a human-looking thing that won't die.

Couple of issues with this. Part of the problem playing cops is wondering about authenticity. By the time you knew enough about police procedure not to get nagged by doubts over whether critical stuff in your game is missing or wrong, you'd probably be tired of police procedure. Also, while you can play regular people in WoD, it's the supernatural "splats" that are the focus of game and setting design. They have more options and more hooks than mundanes, so they're often better to play.

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>>54893931
What if a vampire court turned itself into the lifeblood of its city's police department? They wouldn't have to break the Masquerade. They could take some carefully-chosen positions themselves, scatter ghouls and blood dolls through the rest, and count on the support of a lot of ordinary employees who have no idea. They'd have all the hooks of vampires and all the hooks of cops, and their idea of how to run a police department would come out of guesses and compromises like the ones you'd expect from players who don't know everything about how cops work but are doing their best.

Why would vampires do this? Two reasons: the cops are too much of a threat to the vampires, or the cops are so ineffective that crime is becoming a problem for vampires. Why not both? A major conflict among vampires themselves could see the police move toward being a major Masquerade threat, and at the same time reduce their attention to crime as usual.

Vampire response: offer up some patsies; that gang war wasn't Invictus vs. Carthians, just MS-13 vs. Russians. Then push a mix of ghouls, retainers, and vampires into the force, with the stolen identities of the dead where necessary. Weed out the cops who started carrying garlic, through Internal Affairs or death or early retirement or recruitment into the conspiracy. Compromise the chief of police. Take over Internal Affairs, Public Relations, the morgue, a SWAT team, some night patrols. Put operatives among the detectives, the dispatchers, Human Resources, medical.

A ghoul is more than human, and a vampire's more than that. A vampire in the department where their Disciplines will do the most good can be far more effective than people expect. Vampire SWATs pretend their durability comes from experimental body armor inserts. Vampire interrogators read and write minds but let you believe it's all skill with body language. Vampire liaisons can push the mayor around when necessary, but the rumors explain it as blackmail.

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>>54893945
Now you've got a court of vampires mostly in uniform, who don't raise an eyebrow carrying weapons, who can crank up a siren and race their cars through the city, who can give orders to citizens with little need for Disciplines. It's too bad their body cameras malfunction so often, but brutality and misconduct complaints are down, and if it seems like some of the new brass are bringing in a lot of club kids as night shift office workers, nobody's complained to HR yet.

Of course they've had to work around daylight. Some who are good at staying awake take day shifts they can do in basement offices, but the sunlight hours are mostly left to ghouls. There's no excuse they won't use to avoid putting vampires in daytime court appearances, meetings, press conferences, awards ceremonies, and so on, but despite their best efforts this stuff is a strain on the conspiracy.

There's also the issue of blood. The police department now does direct blood drives, supposedly to perform first aid. Bodies processed by the police morgue get drained. Arrestees may be tapped for a little. Swooning vampire groupies get dream jobs assisting thirsty masters. But for all this, traditional feeding still goes on, especially in the guise of cops trying to hook up in bars and clubs.

Vampires are also more feral than humans by nature. It is a constant trial to operate normally among humans in a professional setting, especially in the presence of spilled blood, fire, insult, or injury. A bad slip there could require a ton of covering up, or even blow the whole conspiracy right there. All the meditation training in the world isn't fixing this. The struggle is under the skin.

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>>54893958
Fire is a special problem, and not just because it is frightening and dangerous for vampires. The conspiracy would be biting off more than it could chew if it tried to control more than the police department. That means the city is served by an uncompromised fire department, and those guys are frustratingly good at detecting arson, which hobbles one of the most important weapons and evidence control tools from the conspiracy's arsenal.

Where there are vampires, there's a risk of vampire hunters. Locals who figure out something is wrong with the police force might become cop killers, hunting regular patrolmen as they angle for a shot at Officer Dracula. Canonical threats like Task Force Valkyrie and the FBI's VaSCU could take an interest in the weird new face of the department, possibly after first arriving to work with it on something else.

There's also the city's own vampires who weren't rolled into the police conspiracy. The court considers every vampire outside their system a "blood mage," but that term can encompass the Circle of the Crone, Lancaea Sanctum, VII, Belial's Brood, the Strix, maybe the Ordo Dracul, and in practice any vampire unfortunate enough to be unaligned. Blood mages are both likely criminals and Masquerade threats; finding and destroying them is a priority, but due to their nature, it's also difficult, and can't be fully explained to normal people.

And there are other vampire domains out there. For the time being, the city's top vampire styles himself Prince and lets visitors believe the court is conventional, conveniently secretive, and merely has a significant amount of power over the police and a few choice infiltrators. Mind you, a traveler from a "blood mage" covenant might hear some downright alarming things if a blood mage can make contact.

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>>54893974
Maybe most importantly, the vampires of the department will make their own trouble. They'll have personal entanglements, run short on blood, get caught in the sun, fight each other, frenzy, or just say the wrong thing at the wrong time. Unexpected dice failures often pull RPGs towards farce. It will be up to the conspiracy to run damage control.

Anyone brought into the conspiracy through the department goes through its "Safety Course B," which is a secret presentation on the basics of how and why the department really works, and doubles as an introduction to the Masquerade. If your players are new to the setting, their characters can start as ordinary cops, go through Safety Course B, and become ghouls. If the player characters are established, they can tap candidates for Safety Course B processing. Only the trusted can go through the process, but blood addiction and Discipline use can force a lot of trust.

The department operates as legitimately as it can, but there are some things too ticklish to solve any other way than with an old-fashioned vampire coterie. People with more knowledge than Safety Course B may have heard of the Dark Squad, but the truth is there is no fixed Dark Squad. A wide variety of vampires get temporarily assigned to "Dark Squad" duties, but all their activities are attributed to a single, implied-to-be-small Dark Squad. Vampires who definitely can't pass in the police workplace are expected to pull more weight in the Dark Squad.

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>>54893994
The legal identities of vampires involved in this mess are fragile. In most cases, they are impersonating physically similar people who are now dead. If the IRS or the FBI pulls the wrong thread, an identity like this could unravel. People the identity is supposed to know personally may also be a problem. Even if all this goes fine, sooner or later there'll be a major injury or simply too much passage of time, and the vampire's continued existence will be suspicious. Such vampires are in theory expected to migrate to other domains for the safety of the Masquerade, but who knows how willing they'll be when the time comes, or whether that arrangement can be brokered with those other domains. Ghouls have some of the same problems.

The role of a Prince in all this is: pressure valve for the difficulties of the conspiracy. He's probably a good enough combatant to survive being deployed as a deus ex machina once or twice, with at least one major noncombat Discipline to give him other options too. An Ordo Dracul Prince with good Coil of Ascension can appear during the day more easily than other vampires, and with Obfuscate can impersonate vampires who need to give daytime court testimony and so forth, although it's doubtful he likes to. If the Prince is used too often, his troubles may wear him down into a draugr or drive him to step down and change domains rather than stick with this cop caper. He might also just get killed. Either way he'd leave a power vacuum to compete with the department for vampire attention.

You can do a lot of things with this setup. Maybe the whole department is an antagonist for hunter PCs who only gradually discover the immensity of the threat. Maybe the city is one stop on a road game's journey, and the PCs bring the more conventional perspectives of their covenants to this weird and likely doomed place. Maybe the PCs are there to investigate or exterminate on behalf of a major hunter organization like Task Force Valkyrie.

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>>54894005
The simplest campaign structure here is that the characters are mortal cops, they see some shit in the early sessions, they get ghouled and Safety Course B'd, and with distinguished enough service they could get promoted to vampire. Players with some setting familiarity can jump straight into starting vampire characters, which is better for getting right to the strengths of the setting. As a middle ground, novice players could go through a prologue as mortal cops, then make vampire PCs for the main game.

If you're feeling ambitious, the game might jump the players from group to group of PCs, letting the players run daytime ghouls in one scene, night patrol vampires in the next, then the social combatants who bamboozle the FBI, then the Dark Squad hitters who kidnap witnesses for brainwashing. Even if you mostly don't do this, consider giving the players the opportunity to make the court's big decisions as alternate characters. This will give them a personal stake in the shit that rolls downhill to their main characters.

Police procedurals should be good sources of inspiration. Anything you see in one will have an added twist when transposed into a vampire cops setting. Tone should be nervous but winnable, although if conditions are right for a finale you can get more apocalyptic. There are threats of many kinds, there's tension between being professional and personal and monstrous, but today doesn't have to be the end, it can be another day in a strained utopia. With lots of human interaction, many Touchstone opportunities, and rules of engagement that involve taking minimally harmed prisoners rather than killing, expect higher Humanity and more normal life than usual for vampire characters.

Where is this pasta coming from?

>Vampire who works as a mortician
Overdone?

>>54894091
Cliches move past the easy stuff. If your characters job isn't a critical part of their character, why not a mortician? Everyone will accept it, but it IS an answer, and you can move on to something more important.

Why is White Wolf still so fucking pretentious with the "muh 90s" shit?

5e is going to be absolute ass

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Is there a reason why they decided to make Uratha so GODDAMN exp inefficient. It takes fucking forever for a WW to get an acceptable combat potential

>>54895233
Maybe you should just claw and scratch things better, y'know? Because that's all they can think of, right?

>>54895233
They get a load of free stats from form changing, and the hunt. I'd assume that's most of it.

>>54895180
It's just people getting old. You should check out the Traveller threads. There's always one anon who is so stuck in the 70's (when Traveller was first written) that he outright dismisses technological progress since then (i.e. "touchscreens are a innately imprecise tool", etc etc.). In a thread about a sci-fi RPG.

>>54875347
Pirates, French Revolution, and Egyptian necropolis. Though I'm interesting in a few of the others for sure

>>54895266
>It's just people getting old.

Yeah, but there are also plenty of older people who are the exact opposite. It's just White Wolf being fucking retarded.

>>54875347
I backed it hoping Mali would win the last poll. (I thought the poll was backer only, and I wouldn't be able to see it until I backed. Oops.)

I'll take golden age of Sci-fi. The Great War is probably going to be the most playable though, but will have the least new/weird content.

King Arthur time will probably have the most change in a system anyone will care about.

>China - no one will play it.
>Greek/exploration Prommie/Changing? Eh.
>French Revolution - Vampires don't change, Demon isn't played.

>>54895259
Dude nobody cares about shitty mage: the superheroing

>>54895493
Dude nobody cares about shitty werewolf: the yiffing

>>54895528
Are you sure since its the second most popular splat after vampire mr. magefaggot

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>>54895528
The new Werewolf the Apocalypse videogame coming out says otherwise magefag

>>54895380
>China - no one will play it.
Too bad. Flamboyant wushu magicks is right up WoD's alley, and Romance of the Three Kingdoms as a Chinese Hopping Vampire would be something else.

>>54895233

They do? I mean you get at chargen 3 renowns. Make a Rahu/blood talon. Put a point in Glory and 2 Purity.

Choose the first two Full Moon gift, then Slaughterer (Rage´s purity facet), Primal Strength (Strength´s purity facet) as Starting gifts.

You will start the game with the ability of 8s again in all attack rolls, +2 to health (that will raise as you get more purity) and +2 to Strength and damage (that will raise as you get more purity).

This is without taking into account merits (like fighting styles or others). If you wanna go full min-maxer just convert all your starting merit dots into PU but that might be too much.

As the game progress, spend 3 XP to raise Honor and user your free facet to buy Perfected Rage (Rage´s Honor facet) to get more turns in Gauru as you raise Honor.

Then another 3 XP to raise glory and use your free facet to buy Berserker Might (Rage´s Glory facet). Which will reduce the damage you take from a single enemy by 2 (which will raise as you get more Glory).

>>54895789
From here on out is a matter of what kind of combatant you wanna be. If you wanna be a Brawl combatant, then just spend 9 more XP to raise Purity to 5 and get all the Full moon Gifts, spend 5 XP to unlock the Shaping gift and user your free facet to get Shield Breaker (Shaping´s glory facet)

So now you will have the ability of 8s again, +5 health, +5 Strength and damage, +2 turns in Gauru, +2 Armor piercing and can reduce the damage of single source to -2.
Perfection of form (Purity´s Shaping facet). Also you get the option to add +5 to any attack roll to during to a hunt to anyone who obstruct you or can cause tilts. Or roll to boost even more Strength, stamina, damage or Armor.

If you are a melee combatant use one of your free Purity facets to get Perfection of form (Shaping´s Purity facet) and get an extra equipment bonus equal to success.

All of this builds cost you 20 XP to be one of the best damage dealer combatants in Werewolf. Depending on how much XP you get per session it could take from 20 sessions to 10 to even 5 (if you convert lots of dramatic failures). And this build doesnt take into account that you still got 3 free facets to spend in.

>>54895661
>>54895661
WoD's alley,
but this is CofD.

What would be the best way for a Mage to go melee?

>>54895859
There's a good few. Most of the Arcana will help. A supped up mage is capable of going physical with werewolves and elders.

Why waste the effort though? Just to show off?

>>54893837
Becaise you're one of the many ill informed nerds who thinks they're smarter than everyone else and you're socially retarded enough that becoming an unfeeling and uncaring monster isn't much of a change to your current state of affairs.

>>54895789
>>54895816
Yeah but that is for a rahu bloodtalon. There are four other auspices. What is an irraka or elodoth going to do?

>>54895859
Don't listen to this >>54895930 faggot. If you want to go melee than matter and life is the way to go.

>>54895972
>Matter
>Not Forces so you can punch people into low orbit.

>>54895972
You really think Life and Matter are the only options here? Oh, Anon.

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>>54895931
Disagree with the last part tbqh, I'm not a Nihilist, I'm actually quite religious.

>>54895956
>Yeah but that is for a rahu bloodtalon. There are four other auspices. What is an irraka or elodoth going to do?

I mean the build i posted was because you didnt ask for a specific auspice or tribe. Changing the auspice will only remove the 8s again and the extra health (that can be compensate with professional training and Giant merits). Unless you are set on a tribe, i suggest Hunter in Darkness for a free dot in Purity and pay 10 XP for the strength and rage gifts list (and you will get 2 free facets from them).

For an Irraka i recommend using the starting gift with Hit and run (Evasion´s purity renown) which allows you to hit and disappear couple with the lunar gifts its a deadly combo. And as Irraka once per chapter you can teleport next to an opponent.

Their 1 lunar gift allows them to gain the rote action with any brawl and melee attack against an unaware target.

Still remember that you are playing against god-mandated stereotype and thus becoming "the best combatant" without the auspice or tribe is gonna be extra hard, as you will need to raise both you auspice renown to 5 and Purity to 5 which would cost you around 21 to 24 XP depending if make a Hunter in darkness or not and 10 more XP in 2 non-affinity gift lists.

However if you wanna be a ok combatant instead your bonus forms + merits is gonna be more than enough.

>>54896253

Elodoth simply put arent good combatant by default. They are great generals though and you can case an opponent before they can move shit against you with the insight, warding and knowledge gifts.

>>54896292
>Elodoth simply put arent good combatant by default.

Who the heck are you fighting, Obrimos masters and Gangrel Elders? ALL werewolves are purpose built melee combatants. Dead is dead, no need for overkill.

However, the myopic melee power builds demonstrate a lot of what's wrong with Forsaken and its players. Not every problem is solved with tooth and claw.

>>54896365
>An anon who doesnt know what reading is.

Read the previous post when i said that to be an OK combatant all an Uratha needs is their Form bonus + some merits. Elodoths dont have anything going for them gift wise that make them better combatant (on the damage dealer sense) than any other Uratha.

And all well and good on the "Not all problems are solved by tooth and claws" but the question was "Why garou take so many XP to be combat capable" and i posted a BRAWL ORIENTED build. If we gonna start getting into what one is fighting and step outside of the just sheer hitting then we gonna be posting builds for 2 more threads.

There is tons of gifts that in certain situation or against certain enemies are gonna ruin their day.

Is there a list of statted out storyteller characters/'intro' characters (Like in the clanbooks) anywhere for Vampire: Requiem?

>>54896365
>Not every problem is solved with tooth and claw.
Sure it is. You just need enough teeth and claws.

>>54896622
>>54896365
I mean, to be fair Werewolf 2e does let you do a ceremonial 'hunt' for stuff like concepts, mysteries, information, etc. They will tooth and claw a lot of stuff.

>>54896622
This is going to become another WoD specific meme, isn't it?

Why are Werewolf players so fucking retarded?

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>>54895645
Do you have a source for that? Because this says otherwise.

>>54896663
Not really. It's like "who would win, the sun or a trillion lions". Just add more lions. Or werewolves.

>>54896682
>werewolf last

kek

>>54895658
That game is going to suck, anon. Really, really suck. I'm just letting you know, don't get your hopes up.

>>54896682
What is the point of showing a recent sale chart?

>>54896687
No, I mean. The "werewolves can only think with their claws" schtick.

>>54896692
Not last. There's another row. Demon is last, right behind Beast.

>>54896704
To show what's most popular right now? Do you have a better, provable standard?

>>54896707
Nah. I don't think our local trolls are creative enough to stick with it for that long.

best to worst

mage
vampire
changeling
geist
beast
mummy
demon
werewolf
promethean
hunter

>>54896732
All that shows is what is getting new sales. You would need an overall sales chart, not a recent sales chart that is probably only for the last week or month.

Like, anyone who bought those items in that shot probably haven't even used them yet the sales are so recent.

>>54896777
Like I said, if you have a better source I would love to see it. I would also like to know how you know how recent those sales are.

>>54896712
Demon takes the most skill and inteligence of any splat so of course it wouldn't be as popular as compared to brain dead vampire and mage

>>54896762
Close, but no cigar.

Changeling
Deviant (I hope)
Demon
Mage
Werewolf
Geist
Vampire
Promethean
Hunter
Mummy
Mortals
Dirt
The worms inside the dirt
Having no game
Drinking alone
Beast

So just how far could a Vampire take the ritual improvisation detailed in Blood Sorcery? Could they spend enough time dicking with something like Vitae Reliquary until they're making something that holds points of stats in reserve? Or could some ancient, pissed off elder kicked out of the Circle of the Crone, the Lancea Sanctum and the Sons of Phobos find himself recreating Thaumaturgy on the power of pure vitriol and bullshit?

>>54896762
What a shit opinion

>>54896805
>Immortals
Changeling
Deviant (I hope)
Demon
Mage
Werewolf
Geist
Vampire
Promethean
Hunter
Mummy
Mortals
Dirt
The worms inside the dirt
Having no game
Drinking alone
Beast

FTFY

>>54896796
I don't. But you don't do a 'Hottest titles' list with top sales of all time. That just isn't good design.

Like imagine if they did that for the whole site version of the list. It would be stuck at like, DnD 3.5 players handbook or something, forever.

>>54896820
everyone's opinions are shit anon

even yours

>>54896833
Thanks mate, I had forgotten about the Purified & Co.

>>54896762
>>54896805
>>54896833
>Changeling in the top three

This is how I know this thread is rancid ass

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>>54896762
>>54896805
Why the fuck Is changeling is so high in these threads? People really enjoy role-playing as rape surviving otherkin?

>>54896861
Which gameline isn't otherkin?

>>54896910
All of them bar changeling and beast.

>>54896945
>Werewolves have a feral soul
>Vampires have the beast
>Mages have a wizard soul, full of special magic

The correct answer was Prometheans. Prometheans are not Otherkin.

>>54896805
>Drinking alone
>Beast

Now all I can see is a drunk yelling at a bartender to bring him a beast sourcebook and the bartender dropping what they're doing in horror. Maybe tapping some sort of WW-Anonymous sign.

>>54896861
Because it's a genuinely interesting game premise.

And it's less 'otherkin' because unlike Beasts you literally are whatever the hell your time in Arcadia made you into, you just have a mystical glamour illusion you can drop to reveal it.

Also I like the thought of being able to play fairytale survivors.
The person used as a "scarecrow" for terror birds, who kept doing his job until they'd torn away enough of his flesh that he could walk off without them seeing him as a meal.
The person used as a fire, who decided to burn his keeper's house down and escape.

>>54896991
faggot alert

>>54897054

>>54897063

>>54897058
>>54897072

lol

>>54893931
>>54893945
>>54893958
>>54893974
>>54893994
>>54894005
>>54894024
That is rather good shit. Dunno if you wrote it, but it's actually book worthy.