How do you like your vikings, /tg/?

>>54859547
Crucified.

>>54859547

Accurate. I mean meme vikings are fun sometimes, but the actual culture and history are quite interesting.

>>54859547
But heathens mostly did the same boring shit everyone else does; they weren't even especially more aggressive than anyone else of the time.

>>54859547
the historically accurate way

that is: warrior poets with a penchant for sailing, settling, trading and lawmaking

also accompained by hot women in full armour

>>54859948

So accuracy mixed with fetish fuel then.

>>54859547
dudes who hop on boats and do exciting stuff like make friends and trade or kill and loot if that doesn't work out

>all these demands for historical accuracy

Lame as hell. I want an entire race of pulp fantasy characters, horned helmets, loincloth, and bikini armor, because fuck realism.

Realism caused Barbarossa to drown in a river before even making it to the damn crusades, and for this act of monumental waste, reality deserves to be shunned.

>>54859958
Lawmaking turns me the fuck on.

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>>54859958
BY UTTERING THE BINDING WORDS
YOU HAVE SUMONED THE FETISH GINNY INTO THIS REALM
SPEAK YOU WISH AND IT SHALL BE GRANTED

>>54859547
With their associated material divided up between new fantasy cultures when appropriate.

>>54859999
Maritime murderhobos?
Sounds like a PC background to me...
Also, quads checked

>>54860222
Trips checked

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>>54859547
An entire race of Fabios.

They sail into your town, trade furs and woo your women, so the menfolk make rumours of them being evil rapists to scare people away.

>>54860277
They are coming to sex you up!

>>54860277
IIRC that happened in Ireland or Scotland

Some towns made up silly grooming and attractiveness rules so the women wouldn't join the Vikings. Norsemen were usually wealthy and vastly more attractive than British men.

>>54859547
Hellfrost.
So slowly being consumed by the ever growing winter, death creeping down from the black north.

>>54860391
In Yorkshire it was actually the reverse.

Norse people would land in Yorkshire and be all like "This place is amazing and the locals are friendly" and then settled down in farmlands.

There is actually little recorded hostility between the common Saxon populace and the Danish Rulers. In fact, the Saxon populace actually supported the Danes when they got overthrown because they were better than the Wessex supporting southerners.

>>54859948
The women could come along vikking if they wanted, and wore the same chainmail and leathers as everybody else.

>>54859547
In perpetual night cause wolves ate the sun and moon.
Man I love Fate of the Norns: Ragnarok.

>>54859547
At the bottom of the sea and washed up on the shore.

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>>54859547
Historically accurate. Including the gods.
I have so much hate for the Thor Ragnarok movie (in fact, all those movies) and the Hellblade Senua's Sacrifice game for fucking up the lore.

>>54859958
doesnt hurt when its both now does it?

>>54861072

Oh no don't get me wrong, I have no objection to Historical accuracy liberally mixed with fetish fuel, I just wanted to be sure it was understood that there was a mix and that what anon was proposing wasn't purely historical accuracy.

>>54860993
>I have so much hate for the Thor Ragnarok movie (in fact, all those movies)
>Hating "Kirby" approved fun

I understand hating what Marvel did to Thor, but limiting that hate just to the MCU is silly

>>54861093
as the anon who posted it I can tell you I am aware that its not completely accurate, but the fact that the norsemem accepted women as warriors is not entirely fetish fuel for me

>>54860431
>this
glorious Jórvík

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>>54859547
Women leading cows round fields.
Men dyeing their beards and starting fires with urine.

>>54859547

This >>54859948.

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Amusing viking facts;

Vikings (let's just call them norsemen after this because "viking" was a thing you did, not an ethnicity) were relatively democratic, emphasis on RELATIVELY. So-called Things (a kind of public assembly) existed on several different levels, going from village, to region, and kingdom levels. In the Things every freeman had a right to make his opinion heard, though they generally voted in line with their chief. The children of thralls were technically free, but were bound to their parents' master by honour and were also obligated to side with him in all matters. This is how the jarls and other lords elected the kings; the practice lived on in Sweden (which generally resisted the feudalism that had gripped both Denmark and Norway) until Gustav Vasa modernised the kingdom in the early 1500s and made the crown hereditary.

The death penalty was generally not dished out in norse society. The law was kept track of by Lawspeakers who operated on a regional basis; but there was never any central authority to perform judiciary killings. Feuds were generally solved by paying the blood price, which wasn't actually paid in blood, but was a kind of indemity payment paid to the wronged party, its value depending on the severity of the crime. The death penalty didn't really become a big thing until the 1500s.

>>54863563
Those are just customs that were common in all the Germanic societies and cultures in Europe.

>>54859547
This image is really singing to me because it's so raw and true. Nobody wants to play the Viking that rapes daughters and slaughters farmers, just like nobody wants to play the pirate that actually commits piracy.

>>54864014
>fighting farmers

Dunno man. Sounds pretty dangerous, how about we target a monastery instead? They're richer and even more defenseless.

>>54864065
Gotta hit the villages when you're leading the Great Heathen Army to take over Wessex, anon!

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>>54860049
Oh baby, lets ratify a local amendment on garage sale regulations. You filthy animal you.

>>54863965
The key difference being that they lived on in norse society considerably longer than they did on the continent, in no small part due to their isolation. The norse faith was practiced in regions of Sweden into the 12th century, and even though Denmark went feudal in due time, the Scandinavian peninsula resisted what was essentially a continental practice.

That and a lot of people don't know about it, and the vikings are prolific enough to make people pay attention.

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>>54860049
>>54864110
hey sexy

>>54864179
It's a shame that they're so into throwing away their culture nowadays.

>>54864273
When presented with a weak horse and a strong horse, a child will always choose the strong horse. They're not so much throwing away their culture as they are embracing a better one.

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>>54864092
*blocks your path*

What now fuccboi? Gonna run off to your boats again.

>>54864331
This is a child who's been taught by everyone he loves that weakness is a strength. He's not making the best decisions.

>>54864392
No, it's a child that's being told they should love the weak horse AND the strong horse when the child really only wants to play with the strong horse, only playing with the weak horse out of some odd sort of pity and hollow respect for the parents that insisted on buying it for them.

A culture that cannot survive the wave of Globalism (which multiculturalism absolutely is) and Muslim migrations is not a culture that should be mourned. Let them die whimpering in the alleyway.

>>54864437

And make muslims/globalism stronger? Why? Why throw out the baby with the bathwater?

>>54864531
Because the baby is pale, sickly and probably already rotting in the bathwater, anon.

>>54859547
Medieval sand niggers. Please. If they weren't raping and pillaging defenseless targets they were losing battles against real men. They are no more badass than a group of towel heads burning down your shit and raping your daughter.

>>54860431
I mean the Anglo-Saxons and Norse were basically indistinguishable culturally anyway

>North Sea Germanic explorers, raiders, farmers, and traders

>>54864569

I'd rather they fight to the bitter end, and I wouldn't write them off yet. As stupid shit starts happening perhaps resistance will build. Strong men make good times, good times make weak men, weak men make hard times and all that.

>>54864605
Good Saxon. You'll get your share of the Danegeld for that post.

>>54864600

Yeah it's not like they engineered awesome ships, sailed to new continents, developed enormous trade routes, wrote awesome poems, or had a sort of proto democratic government or anything

>>54864331
Better =/= stronger. They are throwing away post modern relativistic sjw society in favor of an school religious society. There was nobody in 1920s Europe fucking converting to Islam because why would you. Their society was better, stronger, freer, more confident and more secure in every possible way. Who the fuck is actually proud to be a modern Frenchman or German or Canadian. Those who are proud are so based on past accomplishments, when their counties were good for something. Modern Europe has nothing to be proud of unless you think transgender and child doctor assisted suicide are good things.

>>54864600
Norsemen didn't need to rape. They were the most handsome and masculine men in Europe at the time.

>>54864668
We need the sober nationalism of the 20s and 30s back, but this time without the idiocy of Nazism and Marxism. Churchill's Britain with its stiff upper lip, or FDR's America where a man could support a whole family without his wife having to work.

>>54859859
>>54859547

They weren't even heathens past the 9th century, though the local ideas about Christ were pretty wacky, tending in the direction of Battle Jesus, who would kick Satan's Ass in the Final Battle.

>>54864621
Hwaet?

>>54864668
>>54864726

That society died with World War 2, stop dreaming of a way for it to come back because it just isn't. I know an Islamic-leaning religious society isn't exactly a pleasant idea to you, but it's the strong push in modern society and it's a push you need to either accept or embrace.

>>54864754
>not expecting potentially aimless nostalgia wank in /tg/

>>54864742
Basically. The Norse initially thought Jesus-as-lamb was a cuck for getting tortured and killed while his enemies mocked him.

So later missionaries instead compared him to a valiant warrior king, who dies for the sake of his comrades. Heavy emphasis was placed on Jesus as the divine warrior who gets a metal death before entering the fires of Hell to battle with monsters & demons to save the souls of the righteous damned.

The Vikings loved this Jesus more, and adopted him as a war god initially.

>>54864668
>There was nobody converting to Islam
Except the people that were, with a large Muslim population in France coming in from the colones bringing in their own ideas and religion.

>There's nothing to be proud of in modern Europe

The EU is the most powerful economic body the world has ever known.

>>54864742

There were heathens in Scandinavia into the 1100s.

>The realms of Scandinavia proper, Denmark, Norway and Sweden, established their own Archdioceses, responsible directly to the Pope, in 1104, 1154 and 1164, respectively. The conversion to Christianity of the Scandinavian people required more time

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Scandinavia

>>54864808

The entire EU has a smaller economy the US, actually. It's second after them.

>>54864347
Begone, inglorious dickstabber!

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>>54864820
We have records of pagan worship into the 19th and 18th centuries in rural Scandinavia

>>54864808
>The EU is the most powerful economic body the world has ever known
The EU is the most powerful economic body "EUROPE" has ever known.

>>54860260
Dubs dubs dubs.

>>54859547
I don't like vikings.

I think they are shitlords, the niggers of western europe.

Think about it. They are too lazy to work, steal everything that isn't bolted down, and are constantly lusting after and raping people from more civilized cultures.

Being a viking isn't something to be proud of. Its something to be ashamed of.

>>54859948
>warrior poets
you mean illiterates with a voodoo alphabet who couldn't even approach the concept of phonetics?

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>>54859547

>>54863563
Stop making shit up.

Vikings weren't even remotely democratic.

>>54866205
>I don't like stereotypes that I haven't researched

you do know they farmed most of the time right? And raiding/exploring was a between harvests activity not their principle means of survival

>>54866229
LESS POSTING
MORE RAIDING

>>54866239
No they didn't.

>>54866239
>I don't like the fact that my ancestors were wiggers.
>Better make up a whole bunch of shit to make them seem more civilized.

Vikings are the original trailer trash.

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>>54860056
I WANT HAUGHTY BLONDE NOBLEWOMEN WITH LEWD AND TEASING PERSONALITIES!

>>54866275
>>54866308
>I can't refute anything so I'll just assert my original incorrect idea harder

okay

>>54864963

I've heard that Iceland still has a measurable minority of people who still practice Heathenism and have been for countless generations.

>>54866239
Wow, you mean the internet has so many conflicting points of view that you can find research supporting literally any political position, historical revision or outright fabrication on earth?

Color me impressed.

>>54866336
You made an assertion without any proofs. That is all the refutation I require.

>>54866362
>>54866344
>I'll just keep whining like my point meant anything

okay

Your idiot viking god is no more or less pathetic than any Judaic monotheistic deity throughout history. Its a feeble projection of your own insecurities filtered through your own ignorance, mixed with ethnic hatred and constant scapegoating for your cultures own failings.

Its basically an excuse to wear silly helmets, hold a bbq and bitch about minorities.

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>>54859547
>How do you like your vikings, /tg/?
Scary as hell and awesome in equal measure.

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I want them in space, raiding worlds with machine guns and nuclear weapons, then going home to discuss politics and fine art over their blood soaked treasure and wondering just what the word "civilized" means while becoming civilized themselves thanks to the economic benefits of building places to fix ships, then having stuff to trade with all the ships that come by.

This book is so fucking good you guys.

>>54866136
Are you high?

In groups of 12, with an Arab who brings knives and swords to war

>>54866362
Not him, but this is basic wikipedia-level shit.

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>>54859547
>How do you like your vikings, /tg/?
as the pupal stage of normans

>>54868592
I always found it amusing how the normans stuck to their roots and invaded some ridiculous places like Sicily.

>>54866205
>butthurt southern european pollack

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>>54866309

>>54859547
I don't. Vikings are to be feared and respected, not liked.

>>54868607
It was early in their history and some bored nobles decided to do what their grandfathers did. Lots of weak states with weak rules those days, also helped that they are favored by the Popes.

>>54869076
Why was the popes such huge fans of the normans anyway? Seems like an odd pairing.

>>54869107
were*

>>54869107
Who doesn't like having some good fighters in their corner?

>>54866235

Then put up a source, bruh.

>>54864531

>muslims/globalism
>talking about vague labels on groups of people and concepts as though they are contained and controllable

You are a fucking retard, aren't you?

>>54864273

...wut

Do you even know how culture works?

>>54864726

>I read about the 20s and 30s in broad sweeps and have no idea what the world was like
>It's all sunshine and rainbows except for Nazis and Marxists

Stop talking like an idiot and actually read a goddamn book.

>>54869268
>everybody was poor
>europe is literally medieval-tier at this point
>of mice and men is an accurate description of the US
>but it's all ok because some people liked their countries

>>54866235
Things were a thing (kek) in germanic society overall and stuck around way longer in Scandinavia than on the continent; that's why they're associated with the norsemen. They were essentially assemblies of the free men and women of the province, similar to the greek forum. Could just check out the wikipedia article for a better explaination; it feels a bit overkill to go looking for the exact papers I've actually got the chance to read.

I put emphasis on RELATIVELY for good reason, anon.

>>54866235
>But-But muh manly norseman ruled with iron fist
>Only prissy faggots are remotely democratic
Fuck off Kristian. Don't like your heritage, then kill yourself.

>>54859658
This pretty much. Real life cultures are far more interesting than the pop culture understanding or reimaginings of them.

>>54860391
>Norsemen were usually wealthy and vastly more attractive than British men.
That probably has more to do with their habit of bathing regularly and grooming their hair and beards.

>>54866239
#NOTALLVIKINGS

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>>54869720
Ain't that the truth. I could barely make it through the first episode of Vikings.

>>54868721
ACCEPTABLE, BUT PRE-GERIATRIC, PLEASE!

>>54864437
>A culture that cannot survive the wave of Globalism (which multiculturalism absolutely is) and Muslim migrations is not a culture that should be mourned. Let them die whimpering in the alleyway.

Consider a population of mice who love art, philosophy, and other civilized things.
They are out-competed and destroyed by a population of mice who are violent, greedy, and libidinous.

Competitive success does not necessarily correlate with intrinsic value.
Nature does not necessarily tend towards civilization.

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>>54870068
We're sorry the spirit you are trying to conjure is disconnected from this realm,
please try again later.

>>54869875
>what should be two french knights speaking in ye olde toiymey englyshe
aaaaaa

>>54870154
And "A civilization that cannot compete with barbarism should not be mourned" is what he said. Nothing has intrinsic value.

>vikangz try their faggot shit on Constantinople
>get burned alive with Greek fire

Based Greek chemists.

>>54870511
>what is the Varangian Guard

>>54870563
A mercenary group comprised almost entirely of Russians, Scandinavians and later Normans?

>>54870452
In the short term and without sufficient indulation, barbarism is almost granted to out compete civilization.

you're right, which is why it remains to man to decide what is good and what is not

>>54864799
Early missionaries literally made Jesus into the guy who wins Ragnarok.

>>54859948
Ideally the hot women will also have a penchant for settling.

>>54870580
Yes thank you, Alex.

My point being that the norsemen didn't seek loot in Byzantium, but employment. I haven't heard of any viking raids in the Med or the Black Sea actually.

>>54870580
>Normans
>in the Varangian Guard.

First; it was Eastern Vikings, Not Russians.

Secondly, It was SAXONS who formed the Later Varangian Guard, because their homes were burned BY the Normans.

>>54870605
>I haven't heard of any viking raids in the Med or the Black Sea actually.

The Russians (who were basically Norse adventurers anyway) did it all the damn time.

>>54870652
The Rus/Norse divide is always a tricky one.

>>54870605
>being this retarded

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(860)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27–Byzantine_War_(941)

They also raided Spain and Italy.

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>>54870697
Fair enough.

>I take no pleasure in the burning of men in this duty I perform for the empire

>>54859547
Without dreadlocks and biker leather.

>>54869107
Probably because a lot of Viking rulers had a good mind for business and would gladly compromise if it benefitted them.

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>>54870387

>>54864754
No, I don't. When they come knocking on my door, I will do the same thing to them that I do with Jehovah's Witnesses. Tell them to fuck off.

Then when they get pissed off and start screaming about the sins of a woman walking around without a burka and telling men no, I will laugh in their face before calling the police and watching them get their ass hauled off to jail for trespassing.

Islam is completely incompatible with civilized countries where women have legal rights. I can't wait to see these pigs get thrown in jail when they get caught mutilating their own daughters genitals or for attempting to murder gays.

>>54866308
As if your ancestors were any more noble.

>>54868592
Why are those men wearing skirts and dresses?

>>54859547
gay snowniggers that got beat the moment they faced an actual army

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>>54859547
Invisible.

>>54863563
That sounds like icelandic nationalistic wankery to me.

This is true for most of the "facts" presented in these thread. Most of the things we know about the vikings comes from sagas written describing events that took part 200-300 years Before them. They are not a reliable source.

>>54866217
>Thinking oral tradition needs to be written down.

>>54859547
Strong warrior culture with a rich cultural history. Also, fearsome warriors unafraid of dying in battle.
In any sci-fi setting, they're also going to have long hair, beards, deep powerful voices, and treat heavy metal as historical fact.

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>>54873868

>a religion is entirely defined by it's most extreme members

>>54875268
Yep.

>>54860431
>Norse people would land in Yorkshire and be all like "This place is amazing and the locals are friendly" and then settled down in farmlands.

To be fair, Yorkshire is just like that. That trope is, in fact, how I came to be, because my mother was a farmer's daughter from yorkshire, sent to the big city to study agriculture.

>>54860993
I bet you're an elitist prick about viking metal as well.

>>54874298
>icelandic
The icelandic were dirt poor serfs to the danish crown until after WW2, anon. The facts presented were a thing in most germanic societies early on, but lived on the longest in Scandinavia. If the greeks could have Forums, why couldn't the norse have Things?

They started writing down laws in the 1200s and some of these documents still exist today. They detail laws that date back to the viking age. I believe there are also runic inscriptions that list fines for various crimes from the 8th - 9th century.

>>54873868
>I can't wait to see these pigs get thrown in jail when they get caught mutilating their own daughters genitals
Oh the irony.

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>>54875268
>it's merely a coincidence that every Muslim majority country on the planet is shit, undemocratic, and terrorizes women

>it's totally just normal for a global city like London to have so many Islamic terror attacks, don't look at Tokyo, what are you doing?

>>54864863
Incorrect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)#Lists

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>Makes post about Vikings in fiction and Fantasy
>Devolves into political faggotory

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>>54875268
Back to the topic at hand, they must be unsophisticated in war, poor and desperately relying on their raids for survival.

Norwegians and Daness are the biggest niggers of the Germanics. Anglo-Saxons are superior in every conceivable way.

Swedes aren't even worth a mention as they spent the Viking age playing in the snow bullying Slavs and Balts.

>>54877611
>implying london isn't being attacked because the brits helped americans in doing neo colonialism in the mid east

Saddam was relatively a good guy desu.
Everything went to shit after he got deposed.

>>54882214
The scandis did exactly the same of what saxons did.
Also the swedes started up russia that's pretty fucking important.

>>54869076
>favored by the Popes
>>54869107
>the popes such huge fans of the normans

robert guiscard (who later conquered sicility) invaded calabria, pissed off the pople (leo ix, i think) sued for peace when the pope met him with an army, but got mad when the pope's suebian mercenaries made fun of him for not fighting... so he killed them, won the battle, then started chasing the pope. pope thought he was going to be killed, fled a hundred miles north before giving up. robert guiscard ran up to the pope, then dropped to the ground, prostrated himself before the pope, and begged forgiveness for defeating his army.

the normans had a complicated relationship with spirituality.

>>54875268
hey, when the extremists set policy...

>>54875308
>icelandic were dirt poor serfs to the danish crown until after WW2
the sagas own tho

>>54882214
Anglo-saxons came from denmark/northern germany and were another germanic people, anon. They came to Britain and felt up the locals; this had been tradition since the days of Rome and they were followed by the norsemen and later norsemen-by-french-proxy normans. If you want someone who didn't do nuthin as far as invasions go, you should look to the celts who were there first.

Besides, you can't divide the norsemen into the modern day nationalities. A lot of things changed after the viking age as Denmark, Norway and Sweden were centralised into proper kingdoms. What's usually said is that norsemen from modern day norway and denmark were those who tried to settle on the british isles, whilst those from modern day Sweden merely raided them now and then but set out east for their colonialism, founding cities on the coast of Finland and in Rus, even making it down to the Black Sea.

I know it's a popular meme to say "Swedes" weren't really vikings for some odd contrarian reason, but the people in that region very much were. Neither Denmark or Norway have as many preserved rune stones as the Swedes; runestones that often commemorate viking trips to western Europe. Besides, popular legendary figures like Ragnar Lothbrok were from modern day Sweden, and one of his sons is allegedly buried outside of Stockholm (Bjorn Ironside).

>>54885395
They do. I just wonder how much was made up by people like Snorri Sturlason. I very much doubt the grander narrative is incorrect, just that he might've had a tendency to modify the picture a bit, being a christian scholar some hundred years after the events allegedly took place, and when the gods were actually worshipped to some extent.

>>54885382
Sounds like a fun guy. I know who I'll play in my next CK2 game for sure.

>>54884884
Only because the population he'd been repressing lashed out at the one he'd been favouring as soon as the army wasn't able to prevent them.

Funny things happen when you destabilise strong governments and invade countries without occupying and nation-building.
I blame the UN, personally.

>>54877611
Litterally talking out of your ass.

>>54880643
And your data is viable why?
A nice picture is worthless without a massive explanation of the data. Which I wager will fall short as fuck. No way in hell they asked a billion people.

>>54885418
How the fuck is what happened in Iraq the fault of the UN?

>>54885469
Not that anon, but you could check the adress in the picture. It's the source.

>>54870641
>eastern vikings
Yeah Russ. By that time everyone there called himself that. Viking was something you did. Not some ethnicy.

>Muh burned homes
You mean saxons nobles who lost their land because willy wanted it for his guys?

>>54870580
Who are all more or less guys that went on a viking from time to time?

>>54870563
>Varangian Guard
The Jomsviking were superor, and Amon Amarth are truer vikings than Turisas anyway.

>>54885472
The UN says the following:
> Going to war for the sake of regime change is Bad.
> Occupying and trying to change a culture is Bad.
> Peacekeeping is Good.
> Intervention is Good.
> The locals know how they want things governed
> If you're not Good, then you're Bad and should be punished through Economic Sanctions that cripple your ability to have an economy.
And, lo, the US had to 'intervene in' Iraq, and depose Saddam to 'bring him to justice over weapons of mass destruction', and not invade Iraq, hang him from his own statue, and occupy/subjugate/assimilate it as an invading force should.
> The WMDs never existed!
They did. Saddam had the capability to make and use chemical weapons, but as soon as he realised that the USA was coming for them, he destroyed the evidence, allegedly buried in the Syrian desert. Better hope ISIS don't get hold of that!

Now, due to the FIRST Gulf War, the US had to 'Intervene' in order to free Kuwait from Iraq, and their war machine chewed through the Iraqi army, effectively destroying it as a conventional military force and making it unable to properly resist them a decade later, or to prevent the insurgency and subsequent revolutionaries.

>>54885408
>look to the celts who were there first.
Not really. Neolithic people already inhabited the land before the Celtss arrived. They're the first documented people to have inhabited what would become the British Isles, but they weren't the first people to settle the land.

>>54860499
Citation needed

>>54859547
Hanged with feet cut off

>>54885704
Fair enough, but you get what point I was trying to make.

>>54859547

I really like them as savage avatars of violence. There's something just so classical about the whole 'Anglo-Saxon ubermensch' thing, and burying axes into people's faces.

>>54886035
Evidence suggests the Anglo-Saxon invasion was much more peaceful than first thought. Only about 30% of Brits today are descendants of them. They were just mercenaries that managed to steal power and strangely their culture replaced the existing ones. Wessex the famous Saxon kingdom for example has many founding kings that have Celtic names that all kings of Wessex claimed to be descendants of.

We can also tell which nationalities prefered which areas to raid, we know Danes liked England, Norwegians liked Scotland and Ireland and Swedes liked the east generally speaking.

>>54879791

>PPP

Dumbest metric.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

>>54887953
>Dumbest metric.
Only because it doesn't put the USA way top due to the high price of real food.

>>54860499
Eh, reports of shield maidens are rather rare actually. Pagan women generally wouldnt pick of the axe unless the country was being invaded. In which case it was literally pick up the axe and/or die.

>>54888132

The EUs "real food" rules are stupid, though. Aversion to GMOs is like aversion to vaccines level retarded

>>54888215
No, it's because the USA loads everything up with subsidised high-fructose corn syrup.

>>54888356

It's not all like that. I meal prep and I rarely encounter HFCS. Euros have this idea that all you can buy in the US is doritos and McDonald's, it's retarded. It's not like we are mostly farms or anything...

>>54888466
You have an underclass of poor people kept poor by the capitalist system feeding on their car/rent/payday loan/bling payments, and all they can afford to buy on your 'welfare' scheme is HFCS-laden shit.
Fresh food is cheap, but when you have basically no money, cheap won't cut it when you have a dollar budget per meal for a week, if you cut it down to one meal a day and a snack.

This is some really impressive derailment, guys. We went from having a thread on what kind of vikings people prefer in their media, and it's turned into a discussion about high-fructose corn syrup and its impact on the lower classes of the US.

Exceptional

>>54864742
>>54864799
The amount of syncretism in early Christianity is always cool to me.
Any remnants of that remain in how Scandinavians worship today?

>>54888563
>>54888466
Don't you try and change the subject without accepting that I have a point that shuts down your trendy /pol/racism.

>>54888523

Wow lol. No. The delusion is strong here. I'm a poor as fuck college student, it's hard to get poorer than I am and I don't eat HFCS or any added sugars. I also buy meats/dairy cheap as fuck from local farmers and live in the 4th largest city in the country.

People choose to eat retarded, they do it here and they do it in Europe. I've seen council housing in the UK and in quatiers in France where people do the same stupid shit. Food prices over there are just artificially high.

>>54888563

Welcome to 4chan, don't forget! You're here forever

>>54866229
STOP WATCHING PORN

>>54869107

The new Norman rulers needed legitimacy and the Pope needed protection. The popes gave them or recognized their lordly titles and they protected the Pope and recognized his spiritual authority.

>>54888652
>I'm a poor as fuck college student, it's hard to get poorer than I am
Yes it fucking is. Try supporting a family of 5 on a single minimum wage with unreliable hours, or a job that relies entirely on tips, while dealing with an ongoing health issue that requires expensive medication and supporting an old and busted car you can't afford to fix properly but can't afford to replace either.

Shitty food in the UK and europe is a lot LESS shit than the food in the US. Guess why? No HFCS.

>>54889023

Are you speaking from experience? I live with illegals in one of the bottom 9% counties in the entire US for poverty, keep trying.

>>54867104
>World famous author of Little Fuzzy
I feel like that endorsement doesn't fit.

>>54889153
Ex-girlfriend of mine lived like that, and I've heard many, many stories of the same.

Also, you don't work and have no dependents. You are not poor.

>>54889238

I bartend, and make less than 12k a year. Somehow, I manage to eat healthily and lift, but I'm supposed to be drowning in HFCS and I wouldn't be able to eat if I didn't pay for $12 McDonald's meals every time. It's almost as if ignorance kills and reading/researching saves.

>>54870807
>The men shooting fire look bored, skeptical
>The men being burned look mildly concerned, except for the guy in the back who looks annoyed as fuck

>>54889272
Yes, but you're on 4chan. You learned how to research, or you wouldn't BE here.

The people who work shit manual labour jobs for next to no money? They can't research, they can't learn how, they can't take the time out to re-train because they HAVE no time between working and sleeping and being tired, and can't afford to NOT work because they have kids to fucking feed.

>>54866746
>space furries

>>54888523
Sell your fucking devices fatass.

>>54890188
Pawn shops are part of the cycle of poverty.

>>54889583
American Poverity in a nutshell.
Amerifat here, working manual labor job, for just a touch over minium wage, eats McD's nearly every day at $7/visit, and generally the only meal I get because the I can't afford $50/week for groceries and still have monies for bills.
I have plenty of time between work and sleep to re-train(I barely get any hours because everyone and their brother is screaming for more hours, so no-one gets anything close to full time), I don't have the money for classes though.
Desire and Ability chained to crushing debt and an inability to advance, the downfall of most Americans.
>Change jobs.
Just got turned down for 2 jobs with better hours AND pay for the manager's brat at one and sister-in-law at the other. In 'Murrica it isn't you, it's who you know that get's you work.

Should someone offer me the chance to go a-viking, I would take it...right after my next paycheck so I could pay next months rent, gotta have some place to come back to.

>>54860056
Oh great and powerful Fetish Genie, hear my wish! My desire is for kobold shortstacks! Grant me plump scaled behinds and flat chests!

>>54890267
Then stay poor and on 4chan.

>>54885469
>A nice picture is worthless without a massive explanation of the data. Which I wager will fall short as fuck. No way in hell they asked a billion people.
It's the internationally-reputable Pew Institute, who does polling globally on the order of hundreds of thousands of randomly sampled groups. That data was gathered at the highest level of statistical rigor.

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>>54866217
You ever heard of the Eddas? the stuff detailing the history and folklore of the Scandinavian peoples, yeah, they were poetry, which as later written down you dumb motherfucker

>>54888523
>ll they can afford to buy on your 'welfare' scheme is HFCS-laden shit.
Welfare stuff covers fresh fruits and vegetables, which are generally cheaper the HFCS-laden shit.

Even when poor, you have to actively choose to have a poor diet.

>>54890989
>which are generally cheaper the HFCS-laden shit
Calories per dollar, the HFCS is cheaper, which gives you more money to spend on the meds for the wife's bipolar disorder that put you into the mess.

>>54891233
Nope.

Thanks to the magic of walmart, even relatively healthy stuff is cheap. 1300 calories of fresh baked bread for $1.

>>54889583

Yes but that's not not an overwhelming majority of society. The working poor certainly exist, but not enough to the point that this country would die without HFCS, and certainly not to the point that it has massive effects on GDP. On another note, how many single mom's does Europe have? How many working mothers of five does it have? There's different culture over there, and I doubt there's as many 17 year old spewing out kids at the rate they are here. Child support is a common reason poor women here will have 5 kids and then not work at all.

>>54890390

Have you tried meal planning? My gf and I limit our grocery budget to 75 bucks a week, and we eat meat and vegetables while drinking the occasional craft beer on that budget. We got by on 65 last week, and I even got to prepare Moule-frites on Saturday for us with fresh mussels. I'm eating grilled pork chops and zucchini before walking to work right now, it comes in to about 1.85 a meal.

>>54859547

called danes.

I wonder what the vikings would think about the socio-economic and dietary issues of the United States of America.

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>>54891585

Fair, I'm this guy >>54891480 and I apologize for the absurd derailment.

Anyhow, I like more realistic depictions of the Norse since our campaigns are typically in Northern European/celtic/Germanic areas, though not limited to that. I used pic related as my character portrait last time (middle dude)

>>54890390
McDonald's every day at $7 dollars a go is $49 a week - you could not go to McDonald's and instead buy proper food for an extra $1. Unless I'm missing something?

>>54891585
> Vhere are ze fucking churches that vhe can rob?
> Vhy is it so cold for summer, and only indoors?
> Vhy are we too hot in vinter?
> Fuck zis 'cola' shit, I vant MEAD. Vhy can we not drink mead in the daytime?
> I cannot carry a blade? Vhat are you saying, that I am not allowed to defend my honour? I challenge you, lawgiver, to a duel. Tomorrow, here, midday.
> I must have some of zese 'guns'. Like a bow with no draw.
> No, lawgiver, this is MY 'gun'. You will not have it!
> Ve cannot take anything from zese soft white people. Zey have nothing ve can take.
> Zese dark-skinned warriors carry their wealth openly, and are fearsome opponents. I think we shall remain in this 'ghetto'!

And that's how the vikings became just another street gang in LA.

>>54891585
They would probably be too awestruck by indoor plumbing to care about any of that.

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>>54890390
>Amerifat here
>working manual labor job
>minium wage
>eats McD's nearly every day

>blames outside forces for his own failure of a life

let me guess, you're a liberal, too?

l i k e p o t t e r y

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>>54859547
Something along these lines.

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>>54859547
>>54892058
Or to go with the more modern variant of the same frikkin thing, but with added dragons:

>>54892005
Do rural areas not exist to you?

>>54891971
True. As someone who's been living like a viking for a few days, indoor plumbing IS pretty awesome once you get over the whole 'indoor' thing.

>>54859547
>>54892058
>>54892091
To elaborate:
Realistic vikings suck.
The only thing really cool about them is their mythology, and the social structure that follows from it. Their habits, their strategies, their technology and their conquests are truly unremarkable.
Sweden could only hold finland after it became civilized.
The normans didn't manage to gain a proper foothold in britain, but got assimilated into the local populace.
They have entered the global stage with corporations like IKEA and popular music only after those things were left very far behind. And the danes and similar people are still largely completely irrelevant, while norway can only prosper because they have oil by sheer luck.

>>54888215
HOLY SHIT
GMOs are like barely tested drugs that instead of taking once you take your entire fucking life non stop and that without any long term research into them existing, not to mention that thanks to separation methods being absolutely laughably inadequate all those genes get out into the wild population of the plants and can't be contained spreading into the whole biosphere and even species which you would never even remotely have expected to ever have to deal with the transgenic material. This transfer of genes from a more simple organism to a more complex one does happen in the wild (sweet potato) thanks to agrobacterium, but it usually doesn't lead to those genes spreading, and is only one very specific set of genes from the plasmids.
Add to this that most research and independent testing is definitely shown to have indirect conflicts of interest (job security would be endangered if research would show gmos to be bad), and GMO companies have a ridiculous pull and influence even on the international political stage (the US ambassador threatened france over their internal gmo ban), as well as the Semmelweis Reflex (scientists rather going with the mainstream scientific opinion than questioning it), and you have yourself plenty of reasons to rate the aversion to GMOs as a whole lot more rational than anti-vaxxers.

And this isn't to say that the anti vaxxers are entirely wrong either, because there might be a causal relation between the two elements, except a more broad sweeping one: hygiene causes autism.
Studies have shown that if you come into contact with animal feces more in your childhood your risk of autism is lower. This combined with inflammatory diseases being inexplicably more common in people on the spectrum leads some researchers to suspect that autism is a form of autoimmune disease brought on by civilizational factors.
The real issue here is that vaccinations are nonetheless necessary, and autism is a comparatively small price to pay.

>>54892130
If you live in a rural place, why the fuck are you eating McDonald's every day?

Oh right, because it's easier and you're lazy.

>>54892397
>herp derp
Here is a (you), want some more, poochie?

>>54892394
Its too bad internet shitflinging isn't as effective at keeping away autism as animal shitflinging

>>54891942
U N D E R R A T E D

>>54892394
You are wrong. GMOs are like true and tried drugs applied to a new set of symptoms and everybody is freaked out for no reason.

>>54873931
because you're a sissy that can't look masculine wear a skirt or dress

>>54893208
GMOs are stuff that you don't usually eat being approved for human consumption for all eternity without any long term studies existing. They have a different structural and chemical makeup from anything we've eaten before.

>>54893233
>GMOs are stuff that you don't usually eat
Some are, most are adapted from other edible plants.
>They have a different structural and chemical makeup from anything we've eaten before.
Their exact chemical and/or structural makeup may not be the same, but they are going through a system designed to break apart an astonishingly wide array of similar molecules, i.e. your digestive system.

>>54893360
>Some are, most are adapted from other edible plants.
Those are not the transgenic gmos that most people are worried about though.

>your digestive system.
Which happens to develop cancer and heart failure and whatnot if you feed it even a small amount of erucic acid for example, which is why rapeseed oil could not be used for ingestion in years prior.

>>54893493
Transgenic GMO just means that you take a gene from an another organism and plop it in. You can take a gene from apples and put it into peaches and the result would be completely edible, since both plants are edible. (Assuming you take a gene from which is expressed in the fruit, which is what you are concerned about.)
>Which happens to develop cancer and heart failure and whatnot if you feed it even a small amount of erucic acid for example
That is just factually wrong. We have no evidence of erucic acid doing anything harmful to humans, we just assume it does, because it does to animals in high doses.
http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/publications/documents/Erucic%20acid%20monograph.pdf

>>54893740
>which is what you are concerned about.)
Yes, but that's not what i'm concerned about lol
True transgenic gmos don't utilize plant genes any more. If it was just that, taking already expressed genes from one plant and putting them into another i would be a lot less concerned (though it would still not be a 100% guarantee of safety as for example testosterone in some apes acts the opposite way to testosterone in humans.)

The stuff i am actually concerned about is taking genetic material from lower forms of life, which do not even remotely have similar biological structure to the new host plant, and just using that.

Well it has been linked to heart disease in studies, because it slows the digestion of fatty acids in mitochondria as far as i read.
The point is trace amounts of shit (lead mercury) can accumulate in your body and kill you.

>>54893233
No.

>>54859547
Indistuingishable from normal vikings, but with heavy stereotypical soviet accents for no reason other than they are the scary people to the north

>>54893871
Yes.
That's exactly what it is.

The testing only has to prove "substantial equivalence", which does not account for conformation of things, and does not account for extremely small trace amounts of other substances which could nonetheless accumulate and have a health effect.

Vikings are orcs. Dumb, brawny raiders who only pillage and destroy, preferring to target defenseless villagers and priests.

>>54859547
The vikings were very keen on not saying mean words.
If you called someone a bitch, that was literally - by law - justification to force them to fight you to the death.

>>54893860
>If it was just that, taking already expressed genes from one plant and putting them into another i would be a lot less concerned (though it would still not be a 100% guarantee of safety as for example testosterone in some apes acts the opposite way to testosterone in humans.)
You can have that disparity, because apes and humans are relatively close genetically speaking. Testosterone doesn't do much for plants, and most plant material doesn't do much for humans. The exceptions are mostly compounds plants make for the explicit purpose of keeping mammals away. The same goes for bacteria, the harmful substances are either against larger organisms or the end result of a long digestive chain which yu obviously don't copy into a GMO.
>which do not even remotely have similar biological structure to the new host plant
If it was that different the plant wouldn't be able to express the gene.

>Well it has been linked to heart disease in studies, because it slows the digestion of fatty acids in mitochondria as far as i read.
There is no conclusive evidence that it can bioaccumulate in humans enough to cause any problems though.
>The point is trace amounts of shit (lead mercury) can accumulate in your body and kill you.
While it is true that it can, it is much rarer and harder to achieve for compounds originating from a living organism than it is for pesticides, and heavy metals. And definitely harder than the media would have you believe.

>>54891942
So are your vikings French or Transsylvanian?
Can't quite place the accent.

>>54894124
The point i was making was that just because some genes have a normal non problematic effect in one organism, them being inserted into an even slightly different organism can produce unintended effects.
Nonetheless as this happens with horizontal gene transfer naturally, i'm not too worried about this.

What is worrying though is the transfer of genes from bacteria to complex lifeforms, because while a sequence may be relatively straightforward with clear effects in a prokaryote, it may vary well totally disrupt and have absolutely unintended effects in the vastly more complex system of a plant for example.
By this i mean that even if a sequence just encodes a harmless substance in a bacterium, the same one might be responsible for the more complex plant activating defenses that make it produce carcinogenic stuff or god knows what.

>wouldn't be able to express
I'm not talking about gene expression. I'm talking about the result of the polypeptides resulting from the gene expression.

>harder to achieve for compounds originating from a living organism than it is for pesticides,
Well good thing we aren't making plants that produce pesticides themselves then.... oh wait.
This is my entire point.

a) unexpected accumulation can still occur even if the chances are small. And while this of itself would not be a big problem the fact that you cannot remove GMOs from the biosphere once they are already out there makes this a bigger issue.
b) the pesticides the GMO plants produce should theoretically only interfere with the gastric tract of the pests eating the plant. (setting aside the fact that they also interfere with the digestion of species that are theoretically under environmental protection.) However, the human body is not a solved equation. It should not interfere with it, but we do not know every component particularly not the thousands of different organisms living inside of the human gut.

It's just irresponsible like this without long term testing.

>>54893936
>which does not account for conformation of things, and does not account for extremely small trace amounts of other substances which could nonetheless accumulate and have a health effect.
First of all you mean configuration. Conformation means the rotation of single bonds, which happens constantly in every molecule in your body. If there was a conformational isomer that was more toxic than others, the whole molecule would be considered toxic.
Second of all, living organisms cannot produce molecules in different configurations, only in one, so you don't need to examine all possible configurations.
Third of all producing trace amounts of other substances is usually done by industrial processes, biological systems usually either produce relatively large quantities of byproducts or none at all.

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Why does this always happen on /tg/

>>54892397
>Oh right, because it's easier and you're lazy.
This.

You can buy a lot of chicken and rice and veggies for $50.

I eat more fast food than I should but it's got nothing to do with "how much cheaper" it is. Fuck even convenience food like frozen pizza is $3.

You can eat better for way less than McDonald's, unless you're literally too lazy to make a sandwich.

>>54894287
Configuration yeah. Thanks for correcting me.
And i also meant dispersion. As in: having colloids of something can have a vastly different effect.

>Second of all, living organisms cannot produce molecules in different configurations, only in one, so you don't need to examine all possible configurations.
That's wrong though.
*usually* they can't but with exogenic material they sure as hell can.
>Third of all producing trace amounts of other substances is usually done by industrial processes, biological systems usually either produce relatively large quantities of byproducts or none at all.
But biological systems can be more or less good at storing those byproducts.
See mercury in fish.

>>54894352
Cultured people don't engage in sick furfaggotry?

>>54894280
>What is worrying though is the transfer of genes from bacteria to complex lifeforms, because while a sequence may be relatively straightforward with clear effects in a prokaryote, it may vary well totally disrupt and have absolutely unintended effects in the vastly more complex system of a plant for example.
By this i mean that even if a sequence just encodes a harmless substance in a bacterium, the same one might be responsible for the more complex plant activating defenses that make it produce carcinogenic stuff or god knows what.
It is astronomically more likely that the plant would just be unable to function or have its function disrupted so that it is outcompeted in the wild.
>I'm not talking about gene expression. I'm talking about the result of the polypeptides resulting from the gene expression.
If only there was a way for you to get rid of foreign proteins that you eat. Like some sort of digestive system that denaturates them before they have a chance to be absorbed.
>Well good thing we aren't making plants that produce pesticides themselves then.... oh wait.
This is my entire point.
I was obviously talking about inorganic pesticides, which are way more toxic than anything a plant can make, especially because it can bioaccumulate. (It is almost like we had and evolutionary arms race with plants and consequently have become immune to most of their arsenal.)
>owever, the human body is not a solved equation. It should not interfere with it, but we do not know every component particularly not the thousands of different organisms living inside of the human gut.
It may not be, but we have a pretty solid idea on how it works. We are talking about chances of multiple orders of magnitude below one in a billion. Compared with the potential benefits, I say we should definitely pursue GMOs. This will not be the thing that kills us (retarded world leaders will).

>>54894450
>stop liking what i don't like.

>>54894496
Furries are on the same level with mass murderers, grave desecrators, necrophiliacs and jaywalkers hth.

>>54859547
Belligerent and numerous

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>>54894450
thats not the point.

>>54894398
>And i also meant dispersion. As in: having colloids of something can have a vastly different effect.
It can, but they are going to investigate the form, in which it gets produced/stored.
>That's wrong though. *usually* they can't but with exogenic material they sure as hell can.
Really? Do we have evidence of a transgenic organism producing other stereoisomers of a compound than the parent organism? If we do, I'd love to read it, because that sounds fascinating.
>But biological systems can be more or less good at storing those byproducts.
They are usually excreted or recycled.
>See mercury in fish.
Mercury is not a byproduct in fish, it is something they pick up from the environment and it gets stuck in the fat deposits. They don't need it in any form for their metabolism.

>>54885492
Yes?

Native Saxons dispossesed from their homes because a Foreign Despot wanted them under his heel.

>>54894487
>or have its function disrupted so that it is outcompeted in the wild.
Most of these are not kept in the wild though, and the monocultures we keep most crops in could very well sustain an otherwise impaired plant, which would mean that we would still be consuming that.
Overall it is not that astronomically unlikely, because a simple chemical disruption might not cause the plant to fail especially if it accumulates toxic shit slow enough that it doesn't get within dangerous levels within its life cycle. Us eating it however could get all of whatever it accumulates over its lifetime.
So the chances might be small but not astronomically small.
>Like some sort of digestive system that denaturates them before they have a chance to be absorbed.
That's not what i said. I said the genes expressed in the plant simply leads to proteins within the plant. The fact that the plant can make the peptide sequence does not mean that the resulting protein will not cause unintended effects within the plant leading to it accumulating mercury like fish for example.

>It is almost like we had and evolutionary arms race with plants and consequently have become immune to most of their arsenal.
Yes. With plants. The arms race with bacteria - whose genes we are inserting into plants - is not won yet.
The plant produced pesticides that we have adapted to over millennia are not like the bacteria produced pesticides that GMO crops are producing in large quantities.
>but we have a pretty solid idea on how it works
Hybris. I think this is hybris to state at this point. Don't get me wrong i'm all for genetic manipulation even human genetic manipulation, but you can't just go in half assed without fully understanding things, or you'll end up like the people who embraced the radiant energy of Radium by eating it in chocolate and suppositories and toothpaste.

>>54894578
Okay then.

>>54894664
>but they are going to investigate the form, in which it gets produced/stored.
Not yet they aren't.
This is why the scientists that actually work in this field to my knowledge mostly think that substantial equivalence is a shit testing method. Even pro GMO people admit this.
The current strategy is to blend it and analyze what it consists of. Then do some animal experiments and that's that.
>They are usually excreted or recycled.
>it is something they pick up from the environment and it gets stuck in the fat deposits
This was my point. Even if the plant doesn't end up producing the trace amounts of toxic shit, it might well just start picking them up, because an excretion mechanism fails.

>If we do, I'd love to read it,
Honestly i kindof assumed this, because you can copy production mechanisms as well, and different species might produce different stereoisomers.
They are known to produce different isomers depending on the species
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4200856/
>For more than five decades after the identification of melatonin [86], it was considered to be the only naturally occurring acetylmethoxyindoleamine in organisms. The initial publication referring to naturally-occurring melatonin isomers appeared in 2011 [110].

And here's data about a plant not being able to synthesise an isomer, but being given the ability to do so thanks to exogenic material.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11855640

Not stereoisomers, but you wouldn't find this with a simple mass spectrometer.

>>54894697
>Most of these are not kept in the wild though, and the monocultures we keep most crops in could very well sustain an otherwise impaired plant, which would mean that we would still be consuming that.
I meant that more as a counter to why it is not that horrible a deal if we don't fully separate GMOs from wild plants.
>Overall it is not that astronomically unlikely, because a simple chemical disruption might not cause the plant to fail especially if it accumulates toxic shit slow enough that it doesn't get within dangerous levels within its life cycle. Us eating it however could get all of whatever it accumulates over its lifetime.
I am saying that a plant getting a chemical disruption that both causes it to not die or be noticeably toxic and start accumulating toxic shit that can cause problems within a human's lifetime is very unlikely at best.
>The fact that the plant can make the peptide sequence does not mean that the resulting protein will not cause unintended effects within the plant leading to it accumulating mercury like fish for example.
See the above, I find it highly unlikely that such unexpected effects occur.
>Yes. With plants. The arms race with bacteria - whose genes we are inserting into plants - is not won yet.
We are not injecting the genes that the bacteria use to produce substances against us.
>The plant produced pesticides that we have adapted to over millennia are not like the bacteria produced pesticides that GMO crops are producing in large quantities.
The main advantage of bio-produced pesticides is that they are far more specific, than most synthetic pesticides. Synthetic pesticides mostly kill any animal in relatively small doses, while pesticides produced by plants and bacteria tend to target very specific biochemical pathways that mammals don't really have (or it is so different the pesticide cannot interact with it).
Cont.

>>54894697
>>54895040
>Hybris. I think this is hybris to state at this point.
Maybe. It is basically about how sure you want to be about not getting side effects. I think we can be reasonably sure at this point, but your mileage may vary.

>>54895011
>The current strategy is to blend it and analyze what it consists of. Then do some animal experiments and that's that.
That's just shitty analysis right there. I know that NMR is nearly impossible in this situation, but they could at least try. It's not like there are no good separation method available.
>Even if the plant doesn't end up producing the trace amounts of toxic shit, it might well just start picking them up, because an excretion mechanism fails.
If an excretion mechanism fails, I'd wager the organism will have huge problems. Again what you mention is possible, but is a very specific level of shit going wrong with the organism but not really.

>And here's data about a plant not being able to synthesise an isomer, but being given the ability to do so thanks to exogenic material.
While that's certainly interesting I was thinking about the transgenic organism being able to produce an isomer that neither the plant nor the bacterium was able to produce. Because in this case if you insert the bacterial gene it produces the same isomer as the bacterium does, which is to expected. So basically if you choose your bacteria carefully (and properly analyse what they produce) then there should be no problem.
>Not stereoisomers, but you wouldn't find this with a simple mass spectrometer.
That's why you should use (multi-dimensional)LC separation and then NMR or chiral separation LC-MS. (Sorry, but as an analytical chemistry student I just can't pass up this opportunity. While the biochemistry may be a bit wonky at places I am fairly sure the analytical part can be done. Not that it won't cost a metric fuckton of money.)

>it is not that horrible a deal if we don't fully separate GMOs from wild plants.
and i'm saying, that since *one* bad gmo failure contaminating the rest of the world would be enough to fuck up our biosphere thanks to Horizontal Gene Transfer, and because the chances of it occurring are small but not astronomically small (people can survive with incorrectly formed red bloodcells damnit, organic systems could survive small disruptions even if it makes them slightly inedible.)
It is too big a chance to take.
Especially with our current inadequate testing methods.

>>54895040
>is very unlikely at best.
Yes, and mothers getting deformed fetuses from contergan was also considered extremely unlikely. Getting hit by lightning is also extremely unlikely.
Just because something is not likely doesn't mean you should forego basic safety protocols.

>We are not injecting the genes that the bacteria use to produce substances against us.
No we are injecting genes that the bacteria use to produce substances against other animals and bacteria.
We absolutely cannot know from 3 years testing that it's safe for humans.

>that mammals don't really have (or it is so different the pesticide cannot interact with it).
Or we don't know about them yet.
Or we don't have them but bacterial symbiotes have them.
I'm referring specifically to the article i linked to in my post above. Nothing to do with GMOs, it's just that they discover how the synthesis of melatonin is different in different life forms, and how a lot of melatonin isomers might be produced by the gut flora for example, and how it was only discovered in 2011 that melatonin even had naturally occurring isomers.

In other words, human biology and biology related to the human body is not a completed scientific discipline. Acting like it is and like as if we can know with absolute certainty what something consumed constantly over *decades* will do, is hybris.

>>54895267
>I think we can be reasonably sure at this point,
This is what is being pushed relentlessly. The worst i've heard was "after 30 years of testing, the science is in: GMOs are safe"
This would be like saying: "after x years of the FDA approving drugs, the science is in: drugs are safe."

Each new GMO is different.
Additionally there hasn't been 30 years of continuous testing. If there had been i might be reasonably sure that at least those tested variants are definitely safe. But there hasn't. It's 3 years of independent testing for each one. And that's not enough.

>I know that NMR is nearly impossible in this situation, but they could at least try. It's not like there are no good separation method available.
They could and i'm pretty sure they do for some, but not for all because substantial equivalence is considered to be "good nuff" and the lobbies are so strong that when france blocked GMOs the US ambassador actually threatened them with sanctions.
And it's not like Monsanto wants to release deliberately dangerous things to the public, but the additional testing required to go through all the steps to test for all isomers (NMR can test for isomery? i guess it could...) .... those steps would take a long time and monsanto have assessed the risk to be small enough to concentrate on their profit margin instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food_controversies#Substantial_equivalence
Just read most of this.
The only argument people protecting the current testing method can raise is that so far all have been found to be safe (by the current testing methods).
This here is really the crux of the issue.

>the organism will have huge problems
Fish survive with mercury in them.

>>54895267
>So basically if you choose your bacteria carefully (and properly analyse what they produce) then there should be no problem.
a) Again, you are not taking into account the interaction between the new substance/protein and the host plant.
b) The choice of bacteria is an internal decision of the company, and as such not easy to oversee. I can only go by the assessment of my uncle who worked in the microbiology department of such a company who described the whole process as shoddily designed at best and terrifyingly careless at worst.
Despite having a phd he quit the industry.

Of course this is just anecdotal evidence, but the simple matter of the fact is that the internal processes of the companies are not a public thing and we should therefore have the public safety testing include everything that we want to have included, instead of relying on the companies.

>That's why you should
Which is what a lot of people are proposing. Along with immunological tests.

And not to mention that if the crop is not intended for human consumption but for animal consumption it doesn't have to go through even this shoddy procedure.
And since meat only rarely gets tested and not tested for minute trace substances, it could have an effect on humans from that angle.

>>54895284
>>54895432
>>54895532
>>54895267

I guess what i'm trying to say here is that since you can't just contain genes once released into the biosphere, because they spread, and because there are several different ways in which the resulting crops could have a negative effect without being overtly toxic, and each GMO is a new organism, testing should be thorough, long term, and constant.
The potential benefits are enormous, so the money should be available, and i for one am in love with the idea of genetic manipulation so i fully support researching this, but you can't just blindly follow the mainstream opinion, especially not when lobbies and vested interests are involved.

And yet you are perceived as backwards, anti science and equivalent to anti vaxxers if you don't just allow it all in.

So yeah to sum it up, no, they are not on the level of anti vaxxers simply because of them not allowing gmos. There are reasonable doubts that can be raised against them which should be addressed first.

>>54895432
>>54895284
While the efforts to make working/living with chemicals safe are admirable I personally think we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater in a lot of cases when it comes to chemical safety. It certainly doesn't help that the media is as quick to report that something is "toxic" or "carcinogenic" as companies are to report that their products are 100% safe forever.
While it is unfortunate that the testing is not as good as it could be, I don't think the solution is to ban GMOs until they are proven to be safe but to slowly tighten the regulations until only properly tested GMOs are allowed on the market.
>Fish survive with mercury in them.
You would survive with the amount of mercury fish have.
Also my point was that if a secretion mechanism failed it would have huge ramifications for the organism at large and if it failed for only a few substances, which are not toxic to the plant and are toxic to us, well that is, again, a highly specific kind of malfunction.

>>54895713
Ok, I can agree with that. Also it's fucking late here, so I'm going to sleep.

>>54895828
>slowly tighten the regulations
This would mean that for now anything still goes.
If anything it should be the other way around with regulations being slowly loosened as more accurate methods of genetic transfer and more accurate models for the human body get implemented.

>not toxic to the plant
Mercury is toxic to fish, just not in the amounts it gets accumulated.
However, you if you eat enough of such fish can actually get detrimental health effects from it.

>>54895851
It was a pleasure arguing with you. I'm not used to being able to have such civil conversations. Good night!

>>54859948
>also accompained by hot women in full armour
>the historically accurate way
Obvious bait

>>54859547
Minnesotan.

>>54896210
Pokemon the first movie/10

>>54880261
You know this always happens no matter what the thread began with.

>>54892394
Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? We're trying to talk about Vikings, not fucking genetically modified food.

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The golden viking age was during a huge population boom with large harvests and stable weather.

Viking wasn't really a way of life, it was something you sent your second and third son, who wouldn't inherit any land, to do so they could gain glory and make something of themselves. It was their way of dealing with overpopulation.

Now, while they didn't go raiding because they were starving, they DID go raiding to kidnap women, as female infanticide was a serious issue and males outnumbered females.

And no, the idea that vikings just raided coastal villages and monasteries and ran away before the "real warriors" showed up to save the day is wrong, You know, your honorable "knights", which weren't even a thing for a few hundred years. It was often entire fleets that would arrive in the spring/early summer, raid/extort their way around the coast and rivers until harvest season, then return home. And they went for the richest targets they could to obtain further glory.

An example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Paris_(845)

Now I should go to sleep, 6:30 am here in Norway

>>54866342
There's been a more recent conscious revival though

>>54894256
I was aiming for swedish.

>>54891942
What would they think when they see a lowrider?

>>54900496
They'd probably appreciate the engineering involved, and then proceed to loot it and ride it as their longship after attaching a dragon head to it.

That, or they'd end up as a biker gang because I can see vikings getting on with bikes very well.

>>54900333
Most Swedes have trouble pronouncing /z/ at all as the phoneme doesn't exist in Swedish, so i don't think they would suddenly start replacing other sounds with it.

>>54864799
>>54888591
19th century russian peasants still tried to combine fairies with their catholic faith. They thought of fairies and what not as the angels which didn't side with either Lucifer or God, so they fell but not all the wat down to Hell.

Always thought that was cool.

>>54888591
>Any remnants of that remain in how Scandinavians worship today?
Not really. Scandinavia has been really secular since the 70's, but even so there weren't any traces left even before that.

>>54891480
I've tried meal planning, but it tends to collapse when I can't get vegetables on sale, or when I'm stuck eating potatoes, and nothing else, for two weeks because the car needs an oil change, or my boots wear through, or one of nearly a hundred things that aren't part of my budget pop up.
>>54891939
Nearly every day I eat McDonald's. Specifically the day before I'm scheduled to work and the days I work, generally 3 times a week, so $28 in McDonald's a week, not $49. I would like to work more, but the hours just aren't there.
>>54892005
I'm actually above minimum wage, as I said. Not by a lot.
And I KNOW that nepotism was at play because the dumb shit got hired at the Fucking McDonald's (Assistant Manager) and has trouble figuring out how to fucking breathe without dropping brain matter everywhere, and the bimbo sister-in-law is now an office accounting assistant and can't count past ten unless she's barefoot or wearing sandals. These are people that only get where they are by virtue of who they know.
No I'm not a liberal, I'm pretty damn conservative, more conservative than my family, but that has nothing to do with the fact that those two pieces of shit got fucking HANDED jobs they were blatently unqualified for.

>>54866342

Im stepping inhere just to say that Iceland has always been a christian country. Paganism never had a strong foot hold in the country which makes the current revival quite funny but interesting.

>>54889324
I think the man in the back has gone through this a couple of times in his life.

>>54900543
STRAIGHT OUTTA UPPSALA

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>>54892183
> The normans didn't manage to gain a proper foothold in britain, but got assimilated into the local populace.

Wat
Tonnes of words in modern English have roots in french or are french loanwords.
We still have laws that date back to the Normans.
There are castles, I've seen them.

Explain pls

>>54892183
>>54903034
Can confirm that the first anon is a fucktard. A 'proper foothold' doesn't count when you subjugate the country, annex Wales, build castles all over the fucking place, build a major London landmark and tourist attraction, and have a string of kings?
HAVE YOU NEVER STUDIED BRITISH HISTORY?

>>54864179
>The norse faith was practiced in regions of Sweden into the 12th century
I've heard that the old religion was still practiced in very minor numbers up until the 18th century

>>54895970
There were many instances of viking women, and they even found a battleground where half of the vikings present were women.

Not saying it was a common thing, but it was a thing.

>>54903190
There's some evidence that the Lithuanian variant of Paganism was practiced until the 19th century, but Norse Paganism likely died out much earlier. Can't really confirm it though since it was hidden.

>>54903190
Arguably yeah. I'm not sure how many of the rites lived on, but much of the norse faith and the mythology related to it took a backseat in the form of regular old folklore.

>>54888591
They got lutheraned pretty hard

>>54901610

They only became officially Christian in 1000 AD, the fucking place was founded by a guy throwing god poles to Thor overboard and seeing where they washed up. They didn't even really ban paganism that hard, just made it so you got fined if they caught you doing certain things.

>>54903297

Citation needed

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>>54867631
Underrated post.

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>>54870586

>>54903034
>>54903086
Yes but they didn't stay.
Indians still talk english to this day.

>>54906667
The queen still speaks french, and there's a direct line of descent back to William the Bastard.

>>54906784
Fair point

>>54895970
Its well known that women had a pretty proeminent place in scandinavian society and it was not uncommon for them to be warriors, and I like to think that any lady who can run around in chainmail would be at the very least physically fit.

>>54864110
>Plague Doc
>Not Hellion

gay

>>54864963
Half the fun of reading Asbjornsen and Moe, is how radically Pagan everything is.
Pagan traditions survived far into Modern times, at the least north of South Norway. Especially the folklore, and beliefs that isn't super radical.

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>>54859547
In a mass grave