EDH/Commander General /edhg/

>>54840465
>Thread Question:
I'm happy about Edgar because I'd been trying to make a tribal vampire deck AND have Sorin, Lord of Innistrad but Vish Kal while good, wasn't really what I was looking for.

It hink the only one of the new C17 commanders that ouright enabled a tribe is Arahbo, and even that's not really for commander in general. Wizards is way too broad and if Inalla is good I can bet dollars to donuts that she won't be part of an actual wizard tribal deck. Edgar might be okay since making a free body by doing what your deck probably wants to do anyway might be good but it's not as clear to me. The dragon was just fat dragon shit. It'll be a pretty good commander just for the free mox for all dragons but I don't think it's going to make or break anything. Interestingly due ot then ature of eminence he can really be any combination of colors you want since you never have to cast him and probably don't actually want to cast him ever anyway just due to mana.

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3rd for Mairsil is /ourguy/.

>>54840465
>Did C17 make tribal any more viable? If so, what cards fixed it, and if not, what would cards would you have liked to see to pushed more aggressively?

No, because it focused on shit tribes, instead of the strongest tribes. The strongest tribes weren't viable at high competition levels, so making weaker tribes only slightly stronger isn't going to work.

The only exception to this would be the wizard tribe. I haven't examined all the cards, but there may be some that make Azami Wizard combo slightly stronger.

>>54840541
Though, Edgar is unique because he allows you to combine all the main vampire colors for the first time and you get a free little thingy for doing it so I guess in that Edgar also kind of enabled a tribe, at least in a way it was not really a thing before. I desperately wish his tokens had lifelink though.

>>54840525
>Lord of Innistrad with Edgar nets you free 2/1, 3/1 if you're lucky, vampires for life

Now this is progress.

>>54840541
>Edgar and Inala not being the SOLE reason to run a Tribal deck
>Ur-dragon making your shit cheaper and draws you cards and cheats cards out later in the game
The Tribal support is amazing.
Just because Inala is better suited for bullshit combos doesn't mean you can ignore her innate synergy.

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>>54840581
Ith was in the cage, not Lim-Dul.

>>54840589
If you can cast it (whichyou should since Azami actually does plan to cast Azami), Kindred Discovery (?) is probably pretty good in Azami. Making all your wizards draw 2 cards instead of one for 5 seems pretty sweet.

>Dragons
No.
>Cats
Only Arahbo, Hungry Lynx, and Qasali Slingers. None of the other new cards have synergy or cats matter effects.
>Wizards
Beats the shit out of me, but seeing as how most other people say the wizards deck is gimped, probably not.
>Vamps
Edgar, Patron of the Vein, and Bloodline Necromancer. It helps them more than cats because Vamps already have a good tribal going for them.

>>54840581
>Lim-dûl
>Not Barl
Brush up on your fucking lore.

>>54840596
It sure is compared to what I was working with before.

You don't have to use my jank decks.

>>54840465
Cats are "I'm going to at least kill one person per game" tier after C17 in metas that don't end after 4 turns.

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>>54840632
fuck

>>54840612
You're never going to cast Ur-Dragon and 5 color dragon tribal was already thing. Ur-Dragon as probably the least impactful of the 4. He may not even be the premier one because of Scion, but getting a free moxen is powerful in its own right. Point is in general it didn't enable a tribal deck that didn't exist before.

Inalla doesn't really make a real wiard tribal deck because so many cards are incidentally wizards and because it's a free ability you get from the command zone, you don't need to build around it.

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does rings of brighthearth work with inalla's eminence ability if she's in the command zone? or is that technically a trigger ability?

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Repostan from other thread

>>54840395
Let's hold your hand through this.
>Be design
>Take half greek myths and make a plane demonstrating shallow understanding of greek mythology
>Take other half of greek myths and add legionnaires
>Make a plane demonstrating shallow understand of roman mythology
>Rake in shekels

Who is the best 5-color commander?

>>54840675
Does it say "When" or "Whenever" in the ability rules text?

>>54840525
I was really hoping he made vampire knights for a subtribal theme but I like him too.

>>54840675
It's a trigger.
>>54840693
Tazri, heading Tazri Food Chain. Sliver Overlord otherwise.

>>54840693
who cares

>>54840693
Depends on what you want to use it for. As far as just what's good and that's all that matters, Tazri Food Chain is the best followed by Hermit Druid Scion iirc.

>>54840717
Sliver Overlord is not better than Scion Hermit Druid.

>>54840673
>5 color dragon tribal
If you ran scion as anything besides commander damage/recursion/combo then you were basically running craw wurm tribal.

>you don't need to build around it
What I just said about ignoring it's innate synergy.
We've gotten a lot of options this time around.

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Fixed it.

>>54840717
>>54840740
Slivers being good is a meme

>>54840465
>Did C17 make tribal any more viable? If so, what cards fixed it, and if not, what would cards would you have liked to see to pushed more aggressively?

The general "Pick a tribe" cards like Herald's Horn and Path of Ancestry should help a little with less supported Tribal decks playing consistently, but I would have liked to see a few more artifact or otherwise colorless cars helping with "Tribes Matter" that could go into any deck.

>>54840465
>more viable
Well, yes. They would have to print anti-tribal to make them less viable.

The question is, I don't think any of the printed tribes got viable enough. I feel like the tribal support will just be used in better tribes.

>>54840755
No you didn't

>>54840755
God fucking dammit.

>>54840756
>resolve Sliver Queen
>infinite slivers, gg

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These are all the new mythic legends. How would you rank them from best to worst? Or favorite to least favorite. Whatever you want.

>>54840778
You already posted this, bring something new.

Kindred Summons going straight into Horde of Notions.

>>54840777
You forgot there's another part to that combo and they still don't have haste so it takes a whole turn around the table to swing unless you have a haste engine.

>>54840748
You're still basically running "Craw Wurm tribal" with this, except instead of getting a free entomb for dragons to reanimate them and cheat them out while also getting for a turn anyway, you play your craw wurms cheaper and get a lot of ca in exchange for a much bigger upfront cost.

>>54840778

Ur-Dragon is my favorite because I dig dragons, but I really like Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith because I do bladesmithing as a hobby.

As much as I like Kamigawa, O-Kagachi is kinda a fail, really should have been atleast an 8/8 or something.

>>54840798
Well that was 3 or 4 threads ago and I also forgot to include Ramos in the last pic.

>>54840778
Edgar, Kess, Ramos and Ur-Dragon will be the ones that will be worth a lot once some time had passed.

>>54840768
I think Wizards are the most improved by far. Inalla's passive is absurd, the only thing keeping her from being OP is a relatively low number of Wizards being able to synergize with it. The Wizards that can however get so much better. Even cards that are otherwise janky in EDH like Master of Waves become so much better.

>>54840778
+/-2
>kess
>mairsil
>mirri
>edgar
>nazahn
>ramos
>arahbo
>ur-dragon
>inalla
>mathas
>licia
>o-kagachi

this list is very slapped together and filled with bias btw.

>>54840593

>desperately wish his tokens had lifelink

You're just gonna be skullclamping then anyway

>>54840675
Activated abilities have : in their text.

>>54840820
>ree entomb
Er, sorry, it's not free. I realized after saying it. I recognize that you still neeed to cast scion and pay 2 to get it. I knew that but i was contrasting it with effects you actually literally get for free so it can be misleading.

>>54840778
People are having fun hating on the cards but I can't bring myself to dislike any of them, even O-kagachi is finally filling a role in spirit tribal that has long been barely filled by having Child of Alara as your commander so you could slow down the game with a recurrable boardwipe.

>>54840808
You're always running Overlord as your commander because having a tutor as your commander is how you reliable assemble combo pieces.
Once you resolve Queen with Overlord of the field it's gg because you're going to either explode with mana echoes or ashnods and kill everyone with any number of ways that you've included in your deck.

>>54840778
>Not arranging them in columns

Okay, Hitler.

>>54840778
I'm weirdly drawn to Edgar.
I usually hate aggressive strategies and heavy tribal strategies, but I dunno. For some reason he seems really fun to play.

>>54840886
I know but it would be nice if he actually worked with the lifegain matters vamps. It's not a power level thing. Jut a synergy thing.

>>54840778
>Best
Ramos
Kess
Inalla
Mirri
Edgar
Nazahn
Mairsil
Licia
Ur-Dragon
Arahbo
Mathas
O-Kagachi
>Worst

>>54840907
I feel like "whenever you cast a thing you get a free 1/1" has some johnny ness about it that makes you wonder what you can do with it.

>>54840593
I was gonna throw in a True Conviction because so many vamps have stuff that triggers when they hit things.

>>54840907
>>54840938
yeah. it's more like a combo enchantment than a tribal lord.

>>54840955
The only catch is you do actually have to play vampires to do it which will probably hurt his potential by a lot.

>>54840907
>counters and tokens
>in a deck with no green
He's really interesting, and providing free chumps, sac fodder all game until you're ready to swing wide or combo is a great incentive to actually run subobtimal vampires over the many certified staples of the format.

It's a push in the right direction.
or maybe it'll end up being completely busted, speaking competitively.
Otherwise the jank is really fucking strong in this set and I love it.

>>54840978
but the vampires which are available are diverse and have lots of potential sacrifice synergies and lord abilities amongst them.

if i was gonna use edgar i probably wouldn't plan on ever actually playing him.

>>54840896
>once you have queen it's gg after you already have these cards on the field

So after you have overlord and queen and a haste enabler and mana echoes/ashnods alter (which the latter isn't an infinite) then everyone better look out lest they be defeated by this Rube Goldberg Machine of a deck.

How does this look

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/marrow-gnawer-and-his-army-of-rats/

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>>54840778
Will never not be mad about O-Kagachi.

>Effortlessly defeated Yosei
>Destroyed the Eiganjo Castle protected by the plane's strongest enchantments and soldiers
>Strongest spirit in existance until Kyodai and Michiko merge.
>Literally destroys an entire army.
>6/6

>>54841000
>Rube Goldberg Machine
What part of "tutor for a commander" didn't you get. Basal SLIVER is another sac option you can tutor for with your COMMANDER if you don't happen to draw into either one of those.
You don't even need a haste enabler at first because you can destroy every last one of their permanents and then take them down next turn, fuck, you can even MILL them if you want. Like I said you have at least 15 wincons in your Sliver deck.
Slivers might not be tier 1 but if you take them lightly they will take the game.

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>>54841061
I don't see the problem here.

>>54841061
yeah. huge failure.

they should have made it 3wurbg 9/9.

>>54840996
Literally 0 of the eminence commanders are actually worth casting, following the footsteps of Oloro. I mean they're fine but why would you bother wasting the mana? I just think the deck needs a high concentration fo vampires to consistently get and abuse the trigger, but there aren't enough actually good vampires to make him a real deck. This is as opposed to, say, Inalla, who you don't actually need to build around because so many powerful cards incidentally are wizards, and the power of making a temporary copy of any of the good ones is enough to play her as commander.

Making a 1/1 for free off any vampire is ok but not that powerful in and of itself in commander, but making hasty copies of even just dualcasters magus of the wills or snapcasters for 1 is worth it. Thisi s tough line to walk design wise so I'm not all that surprised WOTC wasn't quite able to nail it perfectly, getting that perfect thing where it makes a tribe powerful enough but isn't still powerful when you don't have to play the tribe.

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>>54840778
>>54840897

>>54841061
Funnily enough, the card actually does most of these things, all but 1 if you want to make fun of Kamigawa's generally low power level.

>>54841159
Oh never mind it's all but two since I forgot they actually made it nonland permanent, lol

>>54841129
Edgar is definitely worth playing and attacking with when you have board presence.
Ur-dragon is worth playing if you can land it on the board and swing with it.
The others are eh when casting.

>>54841138
Swap the second row with the third row for cats, wizards and dragons to show the most viable subcommander and you're golden.

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>>54841159
It trades with Yosei and is no where near the highest p/t spirit.

>>54841061
They were almost there with the flavor too. It's hard to represent a nearly omnipotent being with numbers. They should have really just gone whole hog with it and made him, like, a 0/1 indestructible.
Then give him haste so he can actually trigger his ability and get revenge consistently, and make his revenge trigger exile a permanent from the hand as well to really sell the feeling of "the living concept of revenge is fucking pissed at you for messing with him".

>>54841202
I corrected myself right after that sentence that they're actually fine for the mana but you don't have to so you generally won't. I actually do think if you really do build a dedicated Vampire tribal deck that that deck actually does plan to cast Edgar though so fair enough.

>>54841231
O-Kagachi not having indestructible is the one flavorful thing they got right about the card.

>>54841214
It just exiles Yosei whcih also prevents his ability and there's more to strength than p/t. He's also not the strongest in that sense either but as I said it was a joke.

My LGS has a playset of Patron Wizard for $30 (they spiked to $20 each), I'm only having second thoughts about it because who the fuck would want to trade 4 of them later on

>>54840589
>The strongest tribes weren't viable at high competition levels
What "strong" tribe isn't? You have Krenko, Ezuri, Merfolk, Gisa/Grimgrin/Scarab God, Karthus.

>>54841248
>The oe nflavorful thing they got right
The card is literally defined by the fact that someone crossed you and you punish them for it. It probably wasn't the correct portrayal of that punishment but this is like, factually wrong.

>>54841231

3wurbg
flying, trample, haste

o-kagachi cannot attack a player unless they attacked you or targeted a spell or permanent you control last turn.

11/11

>>54840685
But didn't MaRo say that Theros was too shallow?

>>54841319
That it's not a correct portrayal of the punishment due to being insanely weak for an all-powerful god card means it's not a flavor win.

>>54840581
Thinking about building him, what are some cards I should include?

>>54841332
I genuinely think they could keep it as is and just have it exile all of that player's non land permanents instead of just and the flavor would be fine. And yeah it hsould probably have haste.

>>54841370
>all of that player's non land permanents
they should have just made it exile a number of permanents equal to the amount of damage that it did to the player

>>54840778
I love granddaddy markovs art, totally going to buy the playmat.

>>54841363
Looter Scooter so you can turn him into a helicopter at will.

>>54840778
The only ones I don't like are Licia, Mathas and O-Kagachi, everything else I can dick around with.

>>54840465
>Did C17 make tribal any more viable? If so, what cards fixed it, and if not, what would cards would you have liked to see to pushed more aggressively?
no tribal is just a boring and subpr way to play magic

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>>54841061
>>54841128
RIP the dream.

>>54841213
It's just alphabetical.

>>54841449
No, the thing you like is a subpr way to play magic.

>>54841352
>all-powerful god
The Kami war was unnecessarily drawn out, hence O-Kagachi not bring full bear to the table, you'll swoop down, take some shit out and do it again later. You're pissed but you've still got all the time in the world.

>>54841343
I dunno did he?

>>54841363
Lotus Bloom, Apprentice/Doomed Necromancer, Quicksilver Elemental, Lab Man/Mirror-Mad Phantasm/Demonic Consultation if you're scum like me, Necrotic Ooze, Faithless Looting/Cathartic Reunion/Tormenting Voice/Fact or Fiction/Intuition/Frantic Search/Careful Study/Deep Analysis, Thermopod, Feldon. My secret is Kozilek's Translator.

>>54841363
Morphling, AEtherling, Torchling.

>>54841451
Someone send this to blogatog so he can take the hint and stop fucking up cards based on renowned characters from lore in supplemental products.

>>54841518
Maro isn't even on the teams for supplemental sets.

>>54841478
Stop baiting.

>>54841518
Are you kidding me? I mean the trigger is better but it still only takes one thing, and it's bigger. That's it. Is that really all that matters, that it's bigger?

>>54841518
Maro hasn't been on any of the Commander teams. It's these twats:
Design
>Gavin Verhey (lead)
>Ben Hayes
>Jules Robins
>Mark Gottlieb
>Bryan Hawley

Development
>Bryan Hawley (lead)
>Glenn Jones
>Jules Robins
>Mark Globus

>>54841305
>tfw ordered one for 6€ on thursday
>has not shipped yet

I really hope the seller won't cancel my order, fuck.

>>54841540
>implying Maro won't defend this card against rampant criticism
>implying he isn't the go-to frustration outlet for the average MTG player
>implying (((they))) didn't do this on purpose

>>54841563
The fact it can take immediate revenge is much better, and it not being smaller than several other Kami is a massive flavor improvement.

>>54841601
Now you're just trying too hard

>>54841563
>That's it. Is that really all that matters, that it's bigger?
Considering that's 95% of the complaints people have about the card, yes that's pretty much all that really matter. I'd take that mockup over the current version 10/10 times.

>>54841449
But I can just jam a deck full of cards that share a creature type and feel like I'm good at deck building!

Tear my deck apart
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-08-17-braids/
Particularly I'm still looking for some better general answers outside of countermagic and creature control, but haven't come up with much.

>>54841601
>implying Maro won't defend this card against rampant criticism

He hasn't really tried to defend Ludevic. His response was basically "We tried to fit a square peg in a round hole and left a lot of people unhappy.", acknowledging that Ludevic had no business being a Partner, since Partners were all low power bottom-up designs.

>>54841449
Not necessarily. That is true for most tribal decks that just focus on buffing and swinging, but there are some more interesting tribes with a broader strategy in play. Goblins, Elves, and Zombies tend to be easy and boring because they just go wide and buff to swing for game.

>>54841630
So are you denying implying those things or not?

>>54841647
My first reaction is "cough up for Jin-Gitaxis so if you draw him you have lots of Braids fodder and your opponents have little Braids fodder"

>>54841577

Maybe it'll ship on monday? Some places aren't really updated with the spikes on old cards. I managed to get a Riptide Laboratory for $7, myself

>>54841637
I mean its technically a better card, but it certainly flavorfully or even mechanically leaps and bounds better, just kind of a little. Why are people so concerned with the p/t? Many humans are as powerul or more than two grizzly bears.

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http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/inalla-prototype/

Cuts/adds? Manabase is in progress

>>54841695
Yeah, he's definitely on my list for future upgrades, but this was one of my first decks coming back to Magic after a few years, so I was trying to keep a semi-restrictive budget. Same with Blightsteel Collossus and a few others I wanted to include

>>54841698
I hope so, bought it on mcm from a professional seller so probably.

What's some good +1/+1 tech for Licia?

>>54841678
>acknowledging that Ludevic had no business being a Partner, since Partners were all low power bottom-up designs.
What he said didn't state any of that. In fact, this is what he said:

.>The cards had to be legendary because of the requirement to be commanders, so we had two options: Make up completely new characters or try to see if we could find existing characters that hadn’t yet gotten a card that made some sense with the existing designs.

>Previous Commander products told us players really like when we reference existing characters, so we set out to try and match characters to the designed cards. This is tricky as you don’t have the fine control you have with top down designs.

>Should we have saved any characters until we could have done them as top down designs? Maybe. There’s a strong case that Ludevic might have been one in that category.

>But I imagine a parallel world where we chose to do less existing characters so we could save them for a future top down design, and people are complaining that we didn’t have enough “known” legendary characters.

>Designing Magic is hard because so many people want different things and trying to juggle them all so you make as many people as happy as you can is difficult.

>I hear that many of you Imagined Ludevic as being a top down design and maybe with 20/20 hindsight, that would have been the correct call, but we didn’t have that hindsight when we’re making things.

>Players had said they wanted a Ludevic card and we had an opportunity to make one, and we knew another chance was most likely years away, so we took the opportunity.

So to recap Maro defended the team through these points:
- It had to be bottom up
- You guys said you wanted more lore characters
- We had the chance now to make this character everyone wanted rather than later
- Hindsight is 20/20
- Our job isn't easy

For not defending the card, he's sure through a book of excuses at this reply.

>>54841765
idk, Necropolis Regent?

>>54840685
Jesus Christ will you idiots fuck off already

>>54841712
>Why are people so concerned with the p/t?

Because p/t scales more "accurately" the higher it gets. And this kami was explicitly stated to be the strongest kami by leaps and bounds. And a 6/6 is incredibly unremarkable for such a hyped up character. And finally flavor matters more for legendaries than the average card.

>>54841783
He's defending the team, but not the card. You can defend your logic while ultimately admitting the outcome was faulty.

>>54841765
BFZ Drana and Cathar's Crusade for a go-wide strategy. Metallic Mimic for the tribal theme.

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>>54841783
if you don't like the cards they print you don't have to buy them

i'm sorry you feel upset but posting about it isn't really going to change anything

>>54841783
>through

I'm an idiot.

>>54841719
If Clever Impersonator is worth adding, definitely include Clone and Stunt Double. Otherwise, you've already all of the specifics I've had in mind.

>>54840465
I'm going to build him anyways!
Five color Spirit/Arcane!

>>54841858
Yeah, I don't know why they put old Drana in instead of new Drana.

>>54841886
Make me proud anon.

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why is /edhg/ so full of babies? Are we the worst general on /tg/?

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>>54840581
speaking of lim-dul, can you use his ability when caged? i'm assuming not because it's like a paid trigger thing

>>54841906
Not when the Modern and Standard generals exist.

>>54841837
I'm sorry that once the logic became irrefutable that your point became indefensible. No reason to be upset though, it happens to the best of us.

>>54841712
Because in this case p/t is especially important. It's not just a matter of 6/6 being underwhelming for this kind of card, it's because 6/6 is weaker than a decent amount of the Kamigawa spirits, in spite of O-Kagachi being the strongest spirit on the plane (so powerful that when Kamigawa was released they said it couldn't be quantified in creature form, so they made Final Judgment instead).

>>54841921
Activated abilities have a :. You can regenerate a zombie, but his main ability is triggered and can't be used while caged.

>>54840778
Eminence is such a lame mechanic, not to mention they used it in an incredibly boring way for tribal.

>>54841889
Guess they didn't want you to slam her down on t3 with Edgar's tokens while the other decks durdle along.

Aleshae is superior Mardu tokens commander anyway. Got a lot of love for that the last year.

>>54841854
>ultimately admitting the outcome was faulty

He didn't admit that though. He danced around admitting that. In fact, he never came close to saying "We should have done it this way instead."

He said that people will complain regardless and furthermore the feedback must not have been taken to heart but it was repeated in the very next product.

>>54841852
How powerful you are can be portrayed in more ways than just p/t. For example in that design hed be more powerful because he could just exile any of them.

>>54841906
Have you seen /pfg/?

>>54841601
>the jews are conspiring to make card mechanics not fit flavor

>>54841921
You certainly CAN regenerate target Zombie, anon!

>>54841880
Stunt Double seems fine, but there's so many slightly better clones than Clone itself in Grixis. Gigantoplasm, Vizier, Evil Twin, Dack's Duplicate. I think the manabase will probably end up being good enough to run any of these guys.

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Once I get an assortment of 14 mana rocks, 33 lands, and 6 MLD effects, where do I continue to build boros from here?

>>54841950
Also because the guy who is supposed to be destruction incarnate is worse at then some random dragon from Tarkir.

>>54840685
It's not about a shallow understanding of anything, anon. The last time they went deep was Kamigawa and that left the average player scared and confused. Theme park worlds sell because the majority of people only want to get in the shallow end of the pool.

>>54841783
>But I imagine a parallel world where we chose to do less existing characters so we could save them for a future top down design, and people are complaining that we didn’t have enough “known” legendary characters.
Based MaRo, telling it like it is. Magic aspies will never be satisfied.

>>54842028
you should think of different deck, this looks old and tired

>>54842021
Ah, I tend to forget about the non-mono blue clones, I'm so used to assuming it's just a blue thing

>>54842028
Is in your yard on a random wheel the best lighting you can get where you are, anon?

>>54841783
He's explaining the logic while admitting it was a mistake. MaRo isn't afraid of saying when and why something fucked up since he got his podcast off the ground and now gets to talk directly. He did an entire 50 minute session about why and how BfZ didn't work well.

>>54842031
I remeber when people kept in mind cards =/= lore.
Emrakul dies to 12 squirrels and so on.

Originally the never included the powerful cards since the flavor of the game is "You are a planeswalker summoning dudes to fight for you and casting spells."
It's one of the reasons they never gave Yawgmoth a card, because he's not someone you could've controlled, even as a planeswalker.

>>54842071
It was a joke from a few threads ago. Someone told him wheels were a good idea for Boros decks.

>>54841858
>Mimic was a dollar for the longest time
>massive buyout right after I give mine to some kids at my LGS and they're now almost $8

I need a gun and an address

>>54842095
Well in that case, well done.

>>54842028
Throw in some equipment and for a artifact sub theme. Don't forget the Worldslayer.

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>>54840755

>>54842092
Except the cards are ideally meant to reflect lore, whether the lore of the overarching story of a set or the lore of an individual character, and sometimes they do.

>>54841866
Admitting that you can't argue my points makes you look much more mature than a reply like this.

>>54842121
You're doing this on purpose now.

>>54842071
An anon said I needed to run as many wheels as possible

>>54842079
Its funny, you could tell he was really broken up over BFZ. Zendikar and Innistrad were his babies and he felt he really fucked up his return to Zendikar. I almost feel bad about it. Its gotta feel like total shit when you created this thing everyone loves and you totally mess it up the next chance you get.

>>54842108
Come to Europe, apparently they just dropped back down to 2,50-3.

Also fuck, I canceled my playset when they were 0,50.

>>54842079
>while admitting it was a mistake.
See >>54841983

>>54842145
>>54842121
I'm a different anon, just posting the most lore-accurate version.

>>54842092
Games tell a story through their mechanics. If you make a card of a creature, it should reflects it's flavor.

Heck, just call the card an avatar or shard of O-Kagachi and it's fine.

>>54842165
>>54842079
Though, one thing about that podcast I disliked was this whole overtone of "I fucked it up but there was nothing I could do about it" which is, eh, probably wrong.

>>54842108
It -should- drop down post rotation because he's only good in Zombies, which leave soon.
The only other purpose he has is cat meme tribal.

>>54842203
Barl was Mairsil's co-conspirator, who helped him create the cage and trap Ith.

>>54842226
You're forgetting that from what we've seen of Ixalan, there's probably gonna be a tribal theme.

>>54841983
>He said that people will complain regardless
I mean, he's not wrong.

>>54842271
Yes, exactly. Which is why Mairsil is telling Barl to get the cage.

>>54842121
Is that a dude or a chick?

>>54842286
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XLgpReEkLc

>>54842190
Either you're an idiot who can't understand that his discussion of seeing things in hindsight means they recognize it's not a good card, or you do understand that and are purposefully ignoring it because you want to be mad about something.

>>54842287
No but that's side-stepping the argument that he admitted they shouldn't have made the card the way they did. He gave a very, very long excuse-ridden non-answer as to whether Ludevic should or should not have been designed the way he was.

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>>54840465

>Thread Question
Not really? But it depends on how you define "Tribal" -- Inalla Wizards is going to work but only because it goes infinite, and really can you call a combo deck where the core pieces are restricted to Wizards "Wizard Tribal"?. The rest are still trying to win through linear combat and that's never going to cut it at any level of competitiveness where "Viable" is actually a question. Edgar Vampires probably comes the closest since he's a decent value engine.

>>54842319
>I don't have a response so you're an idiot

Well I guess that's the end of that discussion. Sorry you didn't have a quote to back up your argument.

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>>54842295
Slightly better image, you can tell he's got some stubble going on. He's also got the ring he put his consciousness in.

>>54842292
Whoops, for some reason, I was thinking it said "get in the cage".

>>54842295
Yes.

>>54842286
We already know the tribes of Ixalan are dinosaurs, vampires, merfolk, and pirates. Theyre splitting thd colors in a different way this time. UG, WB, UBR, and WRG. Maybe theyll have different tribes in Rivals but thatd make a pretty shit design tbqh to introduce new tribes in the second set who will get less support than the first ones.

>>54842348
>Should we have saved any characters until we could have done them as top down designs? Maybe. There’s a strong case that Ludevic might have been one in that category.

There's a quote, one of a couple where Maro discusses in that post the idea that in hindsight it was a bad idea to do what they did, which he follows up on with explanation why they felt the need to go through with a bottom-up design.

But just greentext a single word and ignore everything else, it's easier than having to actually argue a stance.

>>54842383
I think he's saying Metallic Mimic may still find some use post-rotation.

>>54841765
Considering the lifegain theme: Unspeakable symbol.

Some creatures that will help Licia kick more ass:

>Abzan falconer
>Oona's blackguard
>Exava, Rakdos bloodwitch
>Mer-Ek nightblade

>>54842325
I feel when it comes to Ludevic it isn't Maro's real place to give an answer really. The dude didn't work on the product and he isn't going to shit on the team that made the product and say "yeah they fucked up"

He can say why BFZ failed because he worked on that and it was a massive failure but a single card that he didn't have any input on is different. He doesn't really know what the players want because the playerbase is so vast and EDH isn't something he probably thinks about. His entire focus is nearly all about draft.

I dunno, I ain't fucking Maro but from those responses I see a dude just asking "what do you want from me?" because he's at a lost and you can't please everyone.

I'm pretty sure Ludevic was just a concept card and they needed to slap a character on it so they put him on it anyways.

>>54842399
Oh, sorry. Yeah Metallic Mimic is only gonna be better when Ixalan comes out.

>>54840778
U R D R A G O N

Before the card leaked I had an Intet dragon tribal. This set will provided some major changes to my pet deck.

>>54842422
Abzan falconer is the shit. I play it in Karlov.

>>54840465
>Did C17 make tribal any more viable?
Tribal as a whole got marginally better but the tribes WotC choose were horribly underpowered and still are not very good. Wizards got some decent stuff and is probably the only tribe i would consider "good" out of the four. Viable is based on play group but on average if I were to try and make a strong deck that will dominate the table tribal is not what I would pick, it wouldn't even be my second choice or third.

>If so, what cards fixed it, and if not, what would cards would you have liked to see to pushed more aggressively?
Tribal in general is just not very good and the arch type itself is boring as 90% of decks are the same. I believe WotC pushing tribal so hard was a lazy way of selling commander products as the decks basically make themselves and eminence was there to push the decks. If I were to change what happened I would have made a normal commander deck with a tribal SUBtheme instead of full blown tribal.

There's nothing interesting to do with any of the Eminence commanders.

I want to build around Edgar for some fun brews, but I'm starting to think it is impossible. Every deck ends up the same.

>>54842395
>But just greentext a single word and ignore everything else
I literally greentexted every paragraph but one of his post. This is ironic, to the point of baiting curiously enough, that you accuse me of doing this yet you ignore the entire context of his post where he throws every excuse he can conjure for the card. He gave a very political-neutral non-answer to make it so both camps of people are happy without actually answering the question, very purposefully so I might add.

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Tell me, is pic related a good deck for a newbie? Yeah, I know that Meren is better but she is hard as fuck to find

>>54842444
>I feel when it comes to Ludevic it isn't Maro's real place to give an answer really.

I don't disagree but then in that instance he probably shouldn't be doing PR for something he feels he shouldn't give an answer for, or at the very least come out and say at the start that he doesn't feel it's his place to give a definitive answer and that he will instead explain the mindset of the team when making the card.

>>54842620
Super easy to play around and you get good value with him. The deck also has some really cute looking cards like New Blood. I say go for it, Anon. You're gonna be swinging with a swarm of vampires and they only get beefier.

>>54842620
just build krenko for newbies. the deck can be completed for under 50 dollars and is incredibly easy to pilot

>>54842620
Yeah, I think it's okay.

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So, I can pack four of them in my deck?

>>54842561
>I would have made a normal commander deck with a tribal SUBtheme instead of full blown tribal.
I mean, you know thats what it was right? The decks arent full blown tribal. Only one new commander in each is tribal and the others have their own categories the deck is split between, like all commander decks, just this time all of them had a tribal aspect.

>>54842670
In EDH? No.

>>54842670
What in gods name would make you think that

>>54842673
>The decks arent full blown tribal
but they literally are anon, every single card is a member of the tribe of the deck minutes equipment and instants/sources

>>54842620
It won't be the world's worst start.

>>54842722
Azami is the only creature in the wizards deck other than the commander who cares about wizards being in your deck. You're not technically wrong, but it means they built shitty half-baked tribal decks rather than good ones that had cards that synergizes with a tribal theme.

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>>54842653
What about Cat deck? I want to drag my friend into EDH and have some fun with 1v1 games. I know that C17 decks are not as good as previous ones but I'm playing a lot of Mardu already and the friend finds cat tribal deck ridiculous as fuck. We just want to know if these decks won't be a really bad start - they don't have to be some uber OP decks desu

>>54842616
Thanks for proving the point by completely side-stepping the discussion at hand to greentext and talk about my post rather than Maro's words.

>>54842794
Yeah, they look fine. You guys go for it and have fun tuning them over time.

>>54842620
It's the only deck that comes with signets for some stupid reason, so yes.

>>54842794
the decks out of the box against each other are perfectly fine. I'd say they are on par with some of the older releases and the only real issue with them is the mana base. Everyone every year says the decks are bad and that the previous ones were better.

Honestly I think these decks are better to pick up for newer players than last years decks.

>>54842722
Cats was a cat deck, and an equipment deck. Vampires was vamps and life gain. Wizards is a clone ish tap ish type deck, it shard to pin down deck and a spellslinger deck, plus wizards. He only one thats kind od all ttibal is the dragon one. Im not sure what secondaey theme is going there. Maybe big mana or colors matter? I dont know.

There is a distinction, because a dedicated Arahbo deck and a dedicated Nazahn deck are going to be completely different looking decks. Same with Licia and Edgar. It starts to get kind of fuzzy with wizards. But Ramos and Ur dragon are also different decks

>>54842507

Are you me? Did I post this and forget about it?

>>54842801
>Thanks for proving the point by completely side-stepping the discussion at hand to greentext and talk about my post rather than Maro's words.

I talked about Maro's words in my first reply, you dolt. The amount of times I need to link to my previous posts in this general is astounding >>54841783

Unless there's some other post Maro made about Ludevic where he admits they should have designed the card differently then you don't have a leg to stand on. He intentionally left his opinion about the card itself ambiguous because it was so poorly received. Saying he's defending the card is just factually incorrect. Please be quiet now.

>>54842794
Only dragons is gonna scorn you utterly out of the box. 5c is greedy and so where their picks of a million legendaries.

>>54842862
Dragons is 5C FattyRamp regardless if you care about tribal interactions or not

>>54842224
He had a difficult premise to work with in the form of the Eldrazi just being there at the end of OG Zendikar, and had the Origins rotation dropped on his head towards the end. He said that he should've done less mechanics and that BfZ was a good lesson on how to balance mechanics in both limited and constructed play. I'm really happy to see him recently walk back the keyword crap that Development's been pushing.

>>54842620
It looks like it's gonna be the best out of the box and cheapest to improve.

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What's the dumbest shit I can cram into Mister Jank's Wild Cage?

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>>54840465
Is it weird that I'm madder about Waisitora?

I mean, yeah, it sucks they went back on their word about not making O-Kagachi a card because they couldn't do him justice, and then didn't even make the slightest effort to do him justice...
But Waisitora's mechanics were already all there laid out for you in the books. She's Green, super fast (Haste, First/Double Strike), and knows healing magic (Regenerates). Instead, we got BR tacked on to her mana cost to, I don't know, enable more shitty tricolor decks? And rather than referencing any of her actual abilities, she makes babies, because she's a girl and that's what girls do lol :^)

Honestly, THIS is the best the New, Progressive Wizards of the Coast can come up with for a dragon queen?

>>54842224
Well in the BFZ podcast it seems like he kind of known that the block was going to be a train wreck coming up.

>>54843227
Morphlings
Vehicles because you can
Flicker effects
Phasing
Magnus cards because even when you sac him he'll still get the effects.


>>54843291
Haste is more red than green and so is double strike

>>54843291
Regeneration is not something they will ever put on cards again.

>>54843291
>Instead, we got BR tacked on to her mana cost to, I don't know, enable more shitty tricolor decks?
Red because she's a dragon and black because of her philosophy. She is not green philosophically.

>And rather than referencing any of her actual abilities, she makes babies, because she's a girl and that's what girls do lol :^)

From her wiki:
>After giving birth to six kittens--of which only five survived--she decided to help Tetsuo once more. The champion later renounced his ties to the empire and sworn an oath of vengeance against the Emperor and his regent. Wasitora took her kittens to Umezawa Manor and defended it against the kentsu, teaching her young how to hunt at the same time.

Maybe it could've tied in the fight mechanic for a little more hunting flavor but her current sac mechanic is more elegant and less wordy.

>>54843227
Mercurial Chemister.
>>54843291
Most people have no idea who Wasitora is. That enables the fuckwit who probably designed the entire dragons deck the night before the deadline to make up whatever the hell he wants for her.

>>54843401
>Red because she's a dragon
Bullshit, there are many non-red dragons.

>and black because of her philosophy. She is not green philosophically
Survival of the fittest is inherently Green. She has no Black traits at all.

>From her wiki:
You actually think that because she gave birth this means her mechanics should revolve around giving birth? Why doesn't Pia Nalaar make Baby tokens, then?

>but her current sac mechanic is more elegant
There is nothing elegant about this multi-conditional abortion of an ability. Please remove your lips from MaRo's cock.

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Marthas or the Queen and what kind of deck do you build with them? pillowfort?

>>54843396
That's not true.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/evergreen-eggs-ham-2015-06-08

They use it occasionally. It's not fully retired just they recognize it's not that well-designed of a mechanic. They use it for flavor more often than function.

>>54843437
>Please remove your lips from MaRo's cock.

Again, MaRo wasn't part of the Commander design team.

>>54843438
I'm going queen politics, and Mathas is the secret general.

>>54843442
That article is outdated From blogatog: "What I mean is we’re going to stop using Regeneration and on new cards where in the past we used Regeneration we’re going to use “indestructible until end of turn”. Regeneration isn’t changing. Old cards with it will keep working as they always have."

>>54843437
>Survival of the fittest is inherently Green. She has no Black traits at all.

I'm not going to spell out the color philosophies. I invite you to reread what I said and look up the color philosophies. Maro has explained them numerous times so it's easy to find info on them. Just know you're an idiot and I don't waste time arguing with idiots.

>>54843505
>I'm not going to spell out the color philosophies.
Of course you won't, you don't know them.

>Just know you're an idiot and I don't waste time arguing with idiots.
This explains why you've not done any introspection.

>>54842560
Do you play the one that grants life link? It's funny watching Karlov generate his own counters.

>>54843291
So what you are saying is you wanted a dragon with haste and first strike? That sounds incredibly shitty.

>>54843438
Mathas turns spot removal into cantrips and has a ton of potential political inluence. Build Mardu goodstuff/midrange with a heaping helping of kill spells and play the table. Just be careful that your bounties don't incentivize people wrathing at the wrong time.

>>54843551
I dont. I dont remember what its cmc was, but I play Abzan Falconer because its perfectly on curve as a 3 drop with only 1 white and gives Karlov evasion. I played Oona's Blackguard for a while too but the cmc is weird and my turn 3 really wants to be a three drop, especially a damage doubler. Also Abzan Falconer outlasting and beciming a flying 4 or 5 power dude is kind of a real thing sometimes. I actually do sometimes play Gift of Orzhova though.

>>54843535
>Of course you won't, you don't know them

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/black-revisited-2015-07-27

Wasitora's main motivation was literally feeding itself and tending to it's brood. Congrats on getting another reply out of me. Still know you're an idiot.

>>54843438
Queen as Commander, Mathas as secondary Commander and additional politics tool.

My headcanon is that he's from her Plane anyway so that adds to it.

>>54843291
>I want more keyword soup commanders

Figuratively kill yourself.

What are so good dragons for Azorius? UW Taigam looks like it would be interesting, and I want to move away from tribal decks now that four more tribes are slightly more viable.

>>54843650
what does secondary commander mean? switch them out between 99 and commander depending the table?

>>54843681
UW Dragons will be shit and Taigam barely contributes anything meaningful to it. You'd be much better off just playing actual Ojutai as a UW Dragon Tribal commander, and you'd be much, much better off not playing UW Dragon Tribal at all.

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>>54843227
Future Sight mechanics we only got once are probably the best answer. Pic related, attach Mairsil to a fucking land.

>>54843706
I meant that as in "takes over and gets all the protection I can give if my actual Commander's tax is too high".

>>54843681
DL Ojutai
Icefall Regent
Keiga
Yosei
Suncorch Regent
Steel Hellkite

>>54843681
Taigam doesn't do enough for dragons, and will honestly probably play better as a spellslinger deck.

>>54843493
Huh, I stand corrected. Thanks for the info anon.

>>54843650
There isn't currently any suggestion there are Vampires on Fiora.

>>54843718
>>54843766
Yes, the idea is to take the best dragons, and make a spellslinger deck with Taigam at the helm. Since Taigam is going to make dragons better anyway, I might as well use the ones that are worth it.

>>54843741
Thank you.

>>54843725
Attaching Mairsil to a land doesn't actually do anything though.

>>54843835
Its not about what you can do. Its the fact that I can attach him to a land that makes me happy.

>>54843730
aah, that sounds nifty. haven't thought of playing like that. thanks anon

I'm a new players and I'm not sure I understand when a card is "cast" or not
Would the Vampire returned on the battlefield by the effect of Bloodline Necromancer activate Edgar's eminence? What about the vampire tokens created by some of the Sorins?
Would you be able to use Counterspell to stop a card that blinked? What about "Not of This World" that counters an ability, could it stop a blinked Reality Acid?

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>>54843800
Which means Mathas is being pretty efficient, right?

>>54843650
>My headcanon is that he's from her Plane anyway so that adds to it.

He's probably from Ixalan, he's got that religious zealot thing going on and we already know they're all batty conquistadors.

>>54843943
>civilized, 18th-ish century clothing
>actual streets and building arcs
Yeah, no, that ain't Ixalan.

>>54843949
Sure as fuck isn't Fiora either.

>>54843931
>Would the Vampire returned on the battlefield by the effect of Bloodline Necromancer activate Edgar's eminence?
No.

>What about the vampire tokens created by some of the Sorins?
No.

>Would you be able to use Counterspell to stop a card that blinked?
No.

>What about "Not of This World" that counters an ability, could it stop a blinked Reality Acid?
No.

>>54843931
It's simple:
>did you spend mana to play the card from your hand?
>did the card specify an alternate casting cost, which you paid to play it?
>did something else, like aetherwork marvel, specifically say you cast the card?
If the answer to all those questions is no, you did not cast it.

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>Worn Powerstone
>When Sol Ring is already in the deck

>>54843978
Fiora is a city plane similar to Ravnica and has Renaissance aesthetics. Definitely fits the bill a whole lot more than "dinos, pirates, vampires and ancient Inca cities".

>>54843931
A card is cast when you move it from the zone you're casting it from (usually your hand) to the stack, and pay its mana cost. Tokens are not and cannot be cast, nor can lands. Simply moving a card between zones (such as grave to battlefield with Bloodline Necromancer, or blinking something) is not casting it. Reality Acid can be countered by Not Of This World if it was cast, but not if it was blinked.

>>54841906
This doesn't come close to the shitposting in /40kg/

>>54844026
>0 vampires on the plane
>dogmatic religious themed character
>on a world where politics is number 1 and religion is never really mentioned outside of the priests who help Brago

You headcanon is shit and makes no sense.

>>54844009
It's for the no-fun playgroups that ban Sol Ring from the get-go.

>>54844026
One has the species, the other has the aesthetic. More importantly, you're both wrong. Of the known planes, he fits most on Dominaria, Ravnica, or Kephalai.

>>54844009
Sol Ring is so absurd that it's still a good card at three times the mana cost.

>>54844053
But there's no indication that Ixalan vampires can be in red.

>>54843931
>>54844033
Importantly, a blinked Reality Acid doesn't even target. It's put onto the battlefield enchanting a permanent it could legally enchant, bypassing hexproof or even shroud.

>>54844087
Or black, for that matter.

>>54844097
One of the leaked cards was a black vampire paladin. They are most likely WB, like a vampire version of Orzhov.

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>>54844097
W/B religious zealots.

>>54843725
He can't be attached if he is a creature can he?

>>54844287
Yep. The Fortification rules explicitly state that they work the same way as Equipment. No island-humping for Mairsil.

>>54844363
>a Fortification that’s also a creature (not a land) can’t fortify a land.
Damn.

>>54844399
That's actually not the relevant text there, as Mairsil doesn't become a Fortification. It's right before that, where it directs you to the equipment rules.

>>54843227
Myr Propogator and other self-cloning effects. He'll legend rule but you'll get another cage.

Barl's cage for shits and giggles.

>>54843725
>>54844287
>>54844363
>>54844399
More importantly:
>704.5q If a creature is attached to an object or player, it becomes unattached and remains on the battlefield. Similarly, if a permanent that’s neither an Aura, an Equipment, nor a Fortification is attached to an object or player, it becomes unattached and remains on the battlefield.

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>>54844474

>>54844496
Why would you exile Mirror Gallery?

>>54844429
It applies to all cards that attach, including Auras.

>>54844503
Anon . . .

>>54844496
Infinite Mairsils, gotta love it.

>>54844503
*shoots u in ur dumb face*

There are five of us in my playgroup, and only four new decks, so I'm thinking about picking up one of the older decks and playing that instead. What were some of your favorites that have been released in the past? Between us we already own the 2016 set, so that's out.

>>54844496
Doesn't that just make Rack Rat? Because packrat reads put a token on the battlefield that's a copy of Pack Rat, not a copy of this card.

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>>54843227
Well, you have to jump through a lot of hoops. But that's why they added the "activate only once" clause.

>>54844519
Even if you don't have Mirror Gallery, it lets you Cage any number of cards from your hand by paying 2B each. Just discard what you were going to Cage and have Copy Mairsil eat it from the graveyard.

>>54844561
When a card refers to itself in its own text, it's actually just saying [THIS CARD] as far as the rules are concerned.

>>54844564
Or, just use Quicksilver Elemental.

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>>54844522
nice rp

>>54844561
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/commander-2017-edition-release-notes-2017-08-11

Read up on Mairsil.

>>54843650
That's exactly what I'm thinking.

>>54844583
Then you'd only need Gemstone Array and Scepter.

>>54840488
I'm all for this.

Post vamp tech.

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>>54844564

Did I stutter?

Post.
Vamp.
Tech.

>>54844742
Find.
It
Yourself.

>>54844742
>Can't wait more than three minutes.
You didn't stutter, you're just a bitch.

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>>54843227
Put a Rocket Launcher in a cage and gain the janky powers of the Rocket Launcher!

>>54844770
>>54844781
No vamp tech in 5 minutes and I permanently abandon this general. Then where will you be?

Clock's ticking.

>>54844823
>Then where will you be?
In a much better place

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>>54844823
Have some tech against Vamps.

Why the fuck are Eclipse sleeves so hard to find?

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>>54844934
Because the tolarian community college guy said they're the best on the market.
I personally disagree. I hate the shuffle feel and much prefer Dragon Shield Mattes.

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>>54844823
You make it sound like a bad thing

>>54844934
Walmart has them sometimes. Go drop by

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>>54843227
Even if you don't have the Aetherling to stack the abilities, they most likely won't own a Totem with cage counter in exile to trade back.

>>54844975
That's hilarious and slightly mean.

>>54844970
That's actually the only place I can find them. My baby hands can shuffle and entire EDH sleeved in Eclipse. But I can't really with Dragonshields. I was in the process of buying up a ton of the white sleeves.

>>54844496
Doesn't work.

"Put a token onto the battlefield that's a COPY OF PACK RAT.".

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>>54844934
Eclipse sleeves are nice and all, i got three sets of them myself, but i've had issues with them lately.
After a while they started getting bent, dented and such. They're full of marks on the edges. Not sure if that should be tournament legal.
If you wanna invest in good sleeves, buy Dragonshield.

>>54845026
>>54845026
>>54845026

New thread for new conversations.

>>54845032
See
>>54844578

>>54843227
Quicksilver Elemental, target himself and laugh all the way to the bank.

>>54841783
I don't get how they are so bad at their own goddamn jobs.

Of course people want known legendaries, but people who do like those legendaries wants them to just follow 2 simple rules:
>Make them fit their flavor
>Don't make them shit

It was better to wait for a better opportunity to print Ludevic, instead of fucking him up and never printing another Ludevic again. I mean, what are the chances of them making another Ludevic.

>>54845572
>Commander 2018: Ludevic and O-Kagachi 2: the Revenge of Ludevic and O-Kagachi

>>54843227
Need confirmation for this, you can just keep piling up all the creature and artifact cards, and if he gets bounced or removed, there is no way to remove those caged cards completely, right?

Or is there a way to remove those caged cards?

>>54844975
That wont work. Exchanges auto-fail if one of the objects leaves before resolution of the exchange.

>>54846614
Riftsweep the fuck out of them

>>54844934
They're not worth it 2bh

>>54846614
Riftsweeper, Pull from Eternity, and Processors are the only way to stop it.

>>54844823
I like your post, but you're still a ninny.

>>54843396
Remember when Phasing went out?

Commander products can do all sorts of weird shit