Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri

I loved the factions in SMAC. They feel like realistic extensions of current ideologies. Interacting with the different leaders (except Miriam, she can fuck off) was way more interesting than in the Civ games.

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Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright? None I say! Let us take what is ours, chew and eat our fill.
>CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "Ethics of Greed"

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>>54817599
She's a straightforward bitch, but in mid-game her message starts to come through when you take a moment to inspect what the fuck you've been probing or developing for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTHH1dqsrsE

>>54817599
Miriam is probably one of the most polarizing characters on /tg/. On the one hand she's a religious fanatic. On the other hand she does care about her people and her slow adoption of new tech is more to do with understandable caution more than any luddite ideals.

Also compared to all the other leaders, bar maybe Lal,she was possibly the least unhinged.

But who exactly is best and worst varies hugely from player to player based on their own ideals. Except Yang, he can fuck right off.

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>>54817687
>Except Yang, he can fuck right off.

>>54817568
I used to think the factions were unrealistic, but now I'm not so sure. If you identify more with ideology than nationalism I can see why people would follow Morgan or Miriam

>>54817568
>There's a GURPS Alpha Centauri as well.
What a shameless way of trying to make your thread board-relevant.

I approve.

>>54818103
SMAC won't ever need to justify its presence here. If anything, the ones complaining about it would, the board will most likely be better off without them.

>>54817675
>Buying bullshit propaganda
>Whitewashing a Bible-trumping fundie into anything else than green eyed monster that simply envy everyone else their development
>HURR WE PURE
>PROGRES EVIL DURR
Tell that to a guy who is clinically immortal and lives a comfy life in well-groomed city base, while you are still on manual labour and basic assembly

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>>54817687
She is not polarising. The "We Must Dissent" posts started as literal meme about her. And then newfags picked up, but took those serious.

Also, please explain me how the fuck someone who consider herself a voice of God running amok fundamentalist state based on conquest and exploitation of virgin planet the least unhinged one.

>>54818198
It's actually kind of interesting; she degenerates over the course of the game from

"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesteryear. But it was never the streets that were evil. "

to

"Beware, you who seek first and final principles, for you are trampling the garden of an angry God and he awaits you just beyond the last theorem."

She understood and accepted science and reason, even advancement, but eventually reached a breaking point that turned her into the sputtering loon in the late game. Which is honestly rather fitting with her playstyle: her benefits, specifically the attack benefit, are most relevant early and in a long game with all other factors equal she'll be sidelined increasingly as time wears on.

Lal's experience seems somewhat similar, but much as he's not so trapped in the early game mechanically, he doesn't fall so far. On the opposite side, Deidere and Zakharov's findings become increasingly profound while their factions flourish in the late game. Morgan, Yang, and Santiago are relatively level across time both mechanically (at low difficulty strategies) and in terms of how they're portrayed.

>>54818066
The big part is that they left nations behind, remember. And this was entirely an international expedition, people who assembled the crew likely tried to make it as varied as possible to prevent nations from reforming.

>>54818371
The big part is that they left nations behind, remember. And this was entirely an international expedition, people who assembled the crew likely tried to make it as varied as possible to prevent nations from reforming.

>>54818224
>please explain me how the fuck someone who consider herself a voice of God running amok fundamentalist state based on conquest and exploitation of virgin planet the least unhinged one.
Not him, frankly I think she is unhinged (Pillar of sanity award goes to Santiago or Lal for me) but I can see reasonable arguments that
>Miriam's "insanity" is based in faith, which we normally don't consider to be non-sane as long as enough people subscribe to it for it to not be a "cult"
>Meanwhile we have Deidere who's borderline cult and claims to be mind-melding with a literal planet, Zakharov who is 200% Mad Scientist, Yang's constant human rights violations, and the self-destructive implications of Morgan's hypercapitalism
>One could even argue that Santiago represents the kind of "survivalist" nutjob already living in a bunker and that Lal is delusional to hope for his peaceful little resolutions
Again, I personally disagree (Deidere is provably correct, Zakharov is at least as scientist as mad, and Morgan and Yang aren't unstable, just potentially distasteful) but the reading is there.

>>54818439
Santiago definitely was, m8. That's what the Spartans were all about. Had they stayed on Earth, they'd be regular nutjobs like our preppers, but on another, hostile planet she has definitely got a point.

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>>54817568
Reminder that Miriam is the most sane leader

>>54818439
My head canon is about Gaians, Zak and Lal getting their shit together by the end of the game. At least that comes from the quotes, clips and what else - "canon" win is to Deidre, with heavy Zak help.

And I always have strange feeling about Yang. On one hand, totalitarian hell-hole. On the other hand, a fuckload of things I agree with (namely, that efficiency trumps everything else, austerity is good and that you can learn things, rather than saying "nah bruh, I ain't got talent in that" and and the stuff that emerges from those)

And out of all original seven, Miriam is probably the only one without any REAL good points. Even Santiago and Yang come with enough good points to consider their stances and ideologies. Miriam meanwhile comes of as "hurr evil everyone who is not us durr" heinous bitch.

>>54818781
>MIriam is the most sane leader
>Implying she's not one of the biggest maniacs on the planet
>Openly ignoring her stance on pretty much everything
>Muh religious moral superiority

Miriam is THE shittest of all leaders, including those from SMAX. And just for the record, SMAX introduced a fucking pirate captain and an insane cultist child.

>>54818831
No, Cha Dawn is strictly worse than Miriam. But that's the sole exception. The only reason you don't know for certain Dawn is worse is because SMAX leaders have very limited lines.

>>54818783
>And I always have strange feeling about Yang.
Me too, reinforced by the fact that I get along pretty well with him most games (Police State, Green, Knowledge: If I'm not playing them, I'll probably be allied with Zakharov, Deidere, and Yang).

Funnily enough my opinions on Yang (basically the same as yours) are essentially the mirror opposite of my opinions on Morgan: Yang has a good philosophy but a shitty implementation while Morgan takes a fairly shitty basis for life and seems to make it work fairly well.

Zakharov is the best leader, though.

>>54818896
>Police State, Green, Knowledge
Why?

>>54817687
>implying that Yang isn't leftypol's husbando

The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesteryear.
But it was never the streets that were evil.
-- Sister Miriam Godwinson, "The Blessed Struggle"

Top-tier waifu material, desu.

>>54818904
Not him but you get effic refund and lots of knowledge. Not sure why you would get Police State unless you were really skimping on all psych facilities.

>>54818224
She is pretty damn reasonable by the standards of

Eat Everything, Starve Tomorrow - Morgan

Psychic and physical brain rape - Sky

Muh 2nd Amendment - Santiago

Everyone's a test subject - Zakharov

Let's do the same thing and hope for another result - Lal

12 human rights violations before breakfast, Pol Pot did nothing wrong - Yang

>>54818962
Your taste in waifus is as shit as my brother's. Pure fucking shit. Holy fucking god am I angry at him for introducing that Swedish bitch into our family. 100% fundamentalist psycho, 0% human.
/rant

>>54818990
>Your taste in waifus is as shit as my brother
You can say it's holy shit

>>54818990
This is 4chan, nobody gives a shit about you or your family. Make a blog.

>>54818969
>She is pretty damn unreasonable by the standards of
There, fixed it for you.

>>54818962
Deidre is leftypol's bff. Sweet words and deep of pits of brainraping worms for those who don't buy into it.

>>54819024
And which faction did you thing was right/least wrong?

>>54818990
>/rant
Reddit, please leave.

On a related note, there are too many collectivists and fedora tippers in this thread.

>>54819032
>>54819032
I used faction editor to make my of special snowflake Mary Sue faction with:
>Soc Ideal: Power
>Emphasis: Support
>Anti Ideal: Green
>Start tech: Applied Physics
>Free building given tech: Recycling Tanks
>-1 Research
>+1 Econ
>-1 Effic
>-1 Planet
>Police State Inefficiency Doubled
>Minimum 0 Police (Immunity)

They're supposed to be a Santiago - Lal offshoot that founded as a counterreaction to Deirdre, Cult and the Progenitors, with a focus on free will, human supremacy and voluntary militarism.

>>54818904
>>54818965
Lots of research, decent planet score, and positive support. The growth hit is annoying but I tend to go wide rather than tall, a holdover from my time playing civ2 on difficulties easier than "Spreadsheet Deity", and nutrients are easy to come by. As a result I've got decent tech, average income, and can mobilize for war without taking terrible hits. Also, you know, having a defensive unit and a former for each city to get my infrastructure up.

It's probably not the ideal path and I experiment more and more every time I boot up the game, but it's been both fun and effective, and flexible in what victory I'm going for.

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>>54817687
Luxury Australian space communism, comrade.

>>54818896
Deidre > Lal = Zak > Yang > Morgan = Santiago > nothing = more of nothing > Miriam

And to wit, Santiago and Morgan aren't bad, they are simply slightly worse than the rest. Deidre wins over Zak and Lal (instead being tied with them) by the virtue of running empathic green with decent stance on humanity, different values and not being greedy for something (like Zak is greedy for knowledge and Lal ain't green-sustainable enough).
>Inb4 someone goes about feeding people to mindworms
Kindly fuck off before you even write that post, anon.

>>54819204
It's ridiculous that they take 20% penalty to research. I'm sorry but the Soviet Union were the first people in space and America had to compete to get to the moon. Like em or hate them, communists do NOT value pure pragmatism. They're deliberate cultural innovators.
Also, "Soc Ideal: Eudamonic"? PLANNED. PLANNED!

>>54818783
>And I always have strange feeling about Yang.
I love Yang as a character and a philosophical ideal, but any actual evidence we get on how the Hive lives makes the place sound absolutely horrific, and like any good dictatorship you can't be sure of anything because the positive propaganda from Yang totally runs counter to the negatives put forth by Lal & Morgan.
>>54819031
I gotta admit, I would totally be into living with the Gaians. I'm already a minimalist so it's not it'd be very hard to adapt in that regard , nor would the access to psychic powers before basically any one else be unappreciated.
>>54819032
Well, the Gaians won, so there's that.

>>54818969
Pray all day, complain all night - Miriam

Hate everyone who doesn't share your believes - Miriam

Use 4 thousan years old Bronze Age scripture to judge non-believers on alien planet with its entire society rebuild from ground up - Miriam

Conquer people because they aren't as expansionist as you are - Miriam (this one is utterly unrelated with typical "Conquer others, because ideological differences")

>>54819254
Submission to a biospheric alien mind is heresy.

>>54819160
The problem is that having a moderate effic instead of a high effic limits your "going wide" strategy and having high support when you can just distribute your mineral strain over many bases is unnecessary. Police State is worse than Frontier for your strategy.

>>54818439
>and claims to be mind-melding with a literal planet
The thing is, it's not just a claim. At least not toward the end of the game.

Hippies look a lot less silly when the "earthmother" imagery turns out to be the literal truth.

>>54819301
Yeah, it's so much worse than submission to an invisible sky magician. At least 'Voice' is real.
>>54819290
Yeah, that's my favorite justification for war in the game, 'You didn't take enough land, so i'm taking it instead.' It doesn't matter who I am playing, I always make it a point to wipe out Miriam as quickly as I can if she's in the game.

>>54819257
>It's ridiculous that they take 20% penalty to research
This penalty basically doesn't exist. Once you get you node tech from Zach or CC, you can outrace everyone by building it in every base with your superior production.

>>54819270
I remember my first contact with SMAC, didn't know anything about it aside "Remember how in Civ 2 you send colony ship to Alpha Centauri? It's a game about that!".
I've spend looking at the factions, reading their quotes and info and quickly realised that Deidre sounds the best of them all. Morgan, Miriam and Santiago instantly throw me away. Zak stopped sounding so fun when I've read his penalty about drones and Yang was too hard on totalitarian state, despite still being pretty nifty from provided material. So I was left with Lal and Deidre and she won by having more flavour in her.

Played the game and never looked back, Gaians are literally the best faction of them all with everything taken into consideration. You can go with Democracy and you can go with Planned, which given Planet's realities isn't all that bad or stupid choice fluff-wise (come on, you are directlyu commanding series of city bases, with all facilities fluff-wise being made under direct orders and "government" demand, how is that not planned in the first place?), both nicely tied with Green.

What to ask more?

Yang's trascendence is astonishingly utopian.

>>54819341
>At least 'Voice' is real.
That. Is. The. Problem.
We invented God. Everything God is, is a human artifact. We know exactly what God is, a product of human minds that ultimately venerates humanity.
This fucking alien is an anathema to everything human. Transcendence is literally the end of the human race. It is misanthropy incarnate. Willing proponents of it are traitors and instead of imposing on their free will through conversation or debate, they should be given the right to willingly die, excised from the species.

>>54819257
That penalty is a non-issue. Like the other anon said, you can easily outproduce everyone due to innate 20% bonus to production, so your nodes are SUPER cheap under Planned.

>>54819388
How tf do you go planned and green? You know some hack we don't?

>>54819257
Aren't the Free Drones anarcho-communist or something similar? They have more in common with a glorified worker union than with the imperial juggernaut the USSR used to be.

>>54819426
>>54819359

My issue is with the FLUFF. Of course you can take measures to alleviate any penalty, just as you can buy a Centauri Preserve and a Hybrid Forest in every base as Morgan. That doesn't make sense in fluff though.

>>54819453
Sounds about as BS as a Democratic faction with a permanent leader. Looking at you, Lal.

>>54819413
>Transcendence is literally the end of the human race
That's the fucking point of transcendence, you idiot. Not in game terms, but literally what transcendence is as a concept.

>Willing proponents of it are traitors and instead of imposing on their free will through conversation or debate, they should be given the right to willingly die, excised from the species.
The other option humanity in SMAC has - if not transcending - is to be simply wiped out by the flowering of the Planet. Cease to exist in ANY form. So when faced with "make the most of the situation and also use it for improving your own species beyond anything possible" and "just die", it's literally a non-issue

Seriously, how dumb are you on scale from 1 to Miriam?

>>54819388
Yeah, for real. I played Zak the first few times and had *tons* of issues with growth as a result of his drone penalties, which is a problem given that I like to play Tall. I always played Dee rather pragmatically, given that you can get into former tech super fast, my territory was usually covered in forests with a few boreholes for mineral support. As I advanced down the tree and forests became better, boreholes would be dropped.
>>54819412
Is it? I always tagged it as Nietzschean.
>>54819413
>Transcendence is literally the end of the human race.
Yup, and that's sort of the point. It's a hybridization of us with something both greater and lesser than us. Adapt or die, fellow ape creature.

>>54819435
It's called "switching your policies". You can run Planned when you really, really need it, and then switch for Green when you really, really need it.

The point here is about both of those policies are ideologically similar. Green/sustainable economy is by DEFAULT a planned one. Meanwhile, running Planned as Gaians, it still has their faction flavour added in.
Is it more clear now?

>>54819257
Soviet Union wasn't real communism

>>54819453
>Free Drones
>anarcho-communist
Are you fucking insane or never played the game?

>>54819512
At least when /pol/ comes in here they don't claim that real Naziism has never been tried.

>>54819476
>My issue is with the FLUFF.
The idea is that they aren't just communist, they're Populists. Their leader was a Talent who was made temporarily retarded by an accident, scanned wrong and branded a Drone. They *hate* scientists and others of that ilk because in their minds they were victimized by them.

>>54819413
>of them all. Morgan, Miriam and Santiago instantly throw me away. Zak stopped sounding so fun when I've read his penalty about drones and Yang was too hard on totalitarian state, despite still being pretty nifty from provided material. So I was left with Lal and Deidre and she won by having more flavour in her.
>Played the game and never looked back, Gaians are literally the best faction of them all with everything taken into consid
This isn't the Civ 5 beyond earth transcend. If anything, the quotes surrounding it suggest that Planet transcends by being forcefed the intellectual sum of what it means to be human. In exchange, we gain a sympathetic symbiotic partner.

There is no part of the Alpha Centauri transcendence victory that implies a discontinuity of human thought or an end of human individuality.

Recall:

"Imagine the entire contents of the planetary datalinks, the sum total of human knowledge, blasted into the Planetmind’s fragile neural network with the full power of every reactor on the planet. Thousands of years of civilization compressed into a single searing burst of revelation. That is our last-ditch attempt to win humanity a reprieve from extinction at the hands of an awakening alien god."

Other victory types, to an extent, represent shortsighted endgames: Planet is still waking up, and the "victorious" civilization will have to deal with that.

>>54819254
m8, it's canon that she overran Sparta Command with mindworms.

>>54819479
>>54819491

Ever got the cooperative conquest victory? The flavor text for that is very different than the usual "Thank you, Simon". It implies that humanity managed to achieve interstellar space travel and becomes independant of the planet again. Flowering or not, Planet is just one place, one of many, same as Earth.

Seriously, humanity is not PREDESTINED to live on Planet. It is predestined to spread and take over the entire universe, an everlasting permanent memetic concept of willpower, uncorrupted and unmolested by mischeivous and malevolent alien beings. We don't need a god, we ARE the God. Anything less is surrender to the cold ironic nature of the universe, the notion that free will exists only to witness its own demise.

>>54819491
The best part is that with a bit of luck, you don't even need boreholes, if you just find a mineral bonus or two and plant forest on that.

And Yang is a nice mix of Confucianism, Legism and Existentialism. Which makes him ANTI-nihilist, rather than a nihilistic dude.

>>54819476
IIRC written material makes Lal a permanent adviser to the Peacekeepers' elected ruling council or something of that kind.

>>54819570
So you are basically saying they should repeat the story again, with their "home" getting wrecked, but who cares, there are other worlds somewhere... maybe... perhaps...

That's not God.
That'a a virus.

>>54819541
Because it has. "Real" communism has never been tried on the level of nation states. Of course, the simple reason for that is the fact that it can't be implemented on such a level: the need for data analysis and distribution infrastructure are too great: "Real" communism would collapse under the weight of its own bureaucracy somewhere between the "Town of a few thousand people" where a primitive but honest form of communism can work just fine and "State of millions" where we've seen the results of reaching for it.

Fascism, at least, applies to what it's meant to apply to.

>>54819576
>Which makes him ANTI-nihilist, rather than a nihilistic dude.
So is Nietzsche. But Yang's twist to Nietzschean and existential ideas is that he uses them only to shit on the concept that the individual matters at all. He's turning them on their head to make them justify totalitarianism on an unprecedented scale.

>>54819476
>as a Democratic faction with a permanent leader
Like Franklin Roosevelt?

>>54819570
>People shouldn't learn from past mistakes: The Post

Let me guess - you are American, right?
And before you go pants-on-head retarded with rant about nationalism or some other shit:
I'm asking, because Americans are probably the only nation on this planet that have it as part of their culture to just pack their toys and leave once situation gets dire and try again somewhere else, rather than stay and fix their shit.

>>54819576
Much like the old bushy German himself, people seem to think Yang is a Nihilist because he talks about it a lot. His entire society in a sense is designed around the question of how to counter that tendency in human societies.
>>54819570
Predestination or not, you want to what, stay in the cradle forever? Idiotic.
>>54819633
>Fascism, at least, applies to what it's meant to apply to.
Killing a whole bunch of people? Because the German economy wasn't revived by them, it was mostly done by the economic minister of the Weimar Republic.

>>54819476
I don't see the issue with the fluff. In order to be at the forefront of reseach they need to actively pursue it. If Drones don't care about it, they will lag behind.

>>54819690
>Killing a whole bunch of people? Because the German economy wasn't revived by them, it was mostly done by the economic minister of the Weimar Republic.

He means that Fascism from the getgo was meant to be applied on a national level, as opposed to Communism, which for the reasons anon states above, doesn't work on such a scale.

>>54819633
>collapse under the weight of its own bureaucrac
Ever heard about computers?

And especially Project CyberSyn? It was tested in practical means. A 1k of telex machines proved to be enough to work this shit on national scale, using VERY primitive technology for that.
So it's not a matter of "impossible due to size of bureaucracy" and more about "not applying proper resources".

Don't get me wrong, I get your point and I somewhat agree with that. But there was literally ONE attempt to ever try running a cybernetic society in a true meaning of that form, and it also happend to be under a left-leaning government.

And how it relates to SMAC?
Yang runs Hive like this.

>>54819663
But is he wrong? Like, that's what makes Yang so strangely appealing, because there's a rather strong argument made by how fucking successful he is given how late his quotes roll in the game.
>>54819722
Well, I mean don't Communistic societies have a better track record than fascist ones given that they all lasted longer? The Fascists started a bunch of wars and got themselves murdered, while the Commies just sort of rotted apart due to corruption.

>>54819512
>>54819633

Can we skip this bit please? It wasn't funny in 1968 and it's not funny now.

>>54819557
The end of the human era. It says so on the tin.
>Other victory types, to an extent, represent shortsighted endgames: Planet is still waking up, and the "victorious" civilization will have to deal with that.
Incinerate it with Planet busters, move on to greener pastures.

>>54819603
Listen you ingrate! You OWE your life, the life of your family, the life of everyone you know, everything you know, everything you do and everything you have to the human species! Even this misanthropic notion that galactic domination isn't our destiny? You owe this to our genetic disease, our sense of existential dread and self-doubt. Without humanity you are nothing, just another systematic manifestation of the mindless physics of our universe. I don't need to argue with you on this, you are wrong by the very nature of being wrong.

>>54819690
What I advocate is to expand to all the cradles. What transcendentals advocate is moving from one cradle to a corrupting cocoon.

>>54819668
Post-Soviet, but I respect the Americans greatly. Their only flaw is a democracy that allows them to elect fools for leadership.

>>54819722

Modern governmebts wouldnt work without trains, telecomunications, and automated systems either.

The downsides of being an average citizen living under the University just never seemed anywhere near as extreme as the others, no matter how many ways people have tried to frame the different societies against each other.

>>54818344
Can you really blame her for her personality shift? It starts off as "maybe we shouldn't go nuts on science stuff just because we can" to "oh shit, the genie's out of the bottle and we can't put him back in." And it's not an entirely unreasonable line of thinking when you've got dissenters getting nerve stapled, workers literally being lobotomized and turned into organic machines, retroviruses capable of wiping out all humans in any city by a few simple probe team members, teleportation technology we only somewhat understand, clone armies with no will of their own, and of course, the ever popular nuke analogs, the planetbuster, able to wipe out cities and leave unusable holes in planet. All of this amounts to one massively shitty time the vast majority of humans are going to have when governments start slinging shit at each other.

I suppose to make a modern comparison, it's like when communication across vast distances in realtime became a reality. It has humongous benefits for society through commerce, knowledge sharing, etc, but it also get repurposed for surveillance and tracking/telemetry of individuals and groups, influencing opinions through the use social engineering, and flooding through noise to cover up topics of public interest. It's not that we'd be better off without it, it's simply that we didn't foresee the potential issues that would arise from such a thing until they happened, and they stand to destroy a lot of the positive benefits we'd get.

>>54819663
And still adheres to a lot of themes of existentialism, Honestly, go read about that school of philosophy. Not on wikipedia, actual works about it.

And legism, too. You will understand all the seemingly weird wibes Yang has.

That ofc assumes you are familiar with confucianism and read Analects, but then again, I'm biased as a sinologist here

>>54819798
>Without humanity you are nothing, just another systematic manifestation of the mindless physics of our universe

Do you honestly think you aren't that?

>>54819798
>>>/pol/

It will be faster than bothering to argue with you.

>>54819859
Yes.

>>54819798

Anon, humanity exist on borrowed time. The moment it decides to expand to other planets, the moment that it will diverge into multiple species. Sooner or later the Homo Sapiens will be replaced, either by better versions of itself, one of the offprings or one of its creation. There will come a time when the stars will die out and only AI will be able to survive in the universe for a period of time longer that the stars will ever exist.

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>>54819798
> move on to greener pastures.

And do what, exactly? Just keep on rolling with the same bullshit that has defined Human society, when instead there's an actual Answer, staring you in the face and saying, 'Nah Dog, we can both be Gods.'

>You OWE your life, the life of your family, the life of everyone you know, everything you know, everything you do and everything you have to the human species!

Go fuck yourself. The reason we're able to type this out right now was the ancient middle-easterners invented the written word so they could better account for their goods & slaves. You have an extremely idealistic take on history.

>What I advocate is to expand to all the cradles.

So we can shit and piss all over them like we did the first time, woo.

2/10, wouldn't respond again.

>>54819766
Germany and Italy aren't the only examples of fascism.

>>54819827
By this logic, modern, real-world fundies are justified, because they shit their pants about atom bomb, central government and the fact people can believe in different god and adhere to different moral codex.
Or how past fundies were shitting their pants about machine guns, cars and planes.

And so on and forth.

It's not justifying Miriam in any way. It's just classic case of religious nutjob being paranoid about things his or her religion doesn't describe or doesn't provide easy to access, always true answers.
And it's not about religion being stupid or pointless (I'm a beliving and practicing Catholic myself, so go figure before you write something about fedora tipping), but the fact you just can''t and shouldn't try to use ancient sciptures as a literal guide for your contemporary life. A life-line - sure. But taken literal? It's pure stupidity.

>>54819911
Oh, yes, please tell me all about the wonders of Chile, Brazil, Protugal & Spain during their Fascist governments.

>>54819882
Not him, but I pity you with your special snowflake mindset.

>>54819541
There's a reason why the Soviet union system is called Stalinism and not communism.

>>54818066
Everyone sort of has a tier list of loyalties they follow, though we don't really think of it as such. For example, a man might have his nation, his culture, his religion, and any other number of identities or groups he belongs to. Eventually, one of these will conflict with the other, and a choice will need to be made.

A guy who grew up in Germany, speaking German, wearing German style clothes, associating with German friends, but follows Islam might have to make a choice if the two ever clashed (And not just in the direct sense of physical conflict.). Perhaps to better fit in with the German people at large, he might consider abandoning his old faith. Perhaps he might be forced to give up his culture to retain it. Or maybe he'll attempt to keep both and simply work through the friction that it causes with either. Or to reduce it to a smaller conflict, it could be a man clashes with a co-worker and friend on an issue, and must choose between continuing with his current belief or tabling it to not antagonize his co-worker.

However, at some point, a choice will need to be made, and I think history shows that ideology carries a lot of weight when deciding who we side with.

>>54819963
It's more of a HFY, pseudo-nationalist mindset. He'd fit right in with the Spartans, maybe he'd be able to get off a couple shots with his flame-gun before the worms burrowed into his sweet, tasty eyesockets.

>>54819949
And Argentina. Let's not forget how hard they've got butt-fuck for being fascist for just SEVEN YEARS, making it an absolute world record, especially since that's the only fascist regime that didn't helped anyone with anything and made situation from good to abysmal.

>>54819896
Humanity is more than a simple species, or a genetic structure. Humanity exists as the sum property of itself, it's own law if you will excuse my Kantian. And I place my faith in it, and that it can survive and defeat the universal constants. Above all else, you and everyone else here owes humanity the effort to protect, fight and live for it. And when knowing that the path splits between transcending to something allegedly "greater" than humanity and the way to prove that humanity is already superior, the answer should be obvious. Every fiber of your being must be given in service to prove humanity stronger, and anything less is betrayal.

>>54819996
Betrayal of what? Humanity as a concept has no ability to pass moral judgement, nor does it have a consistent set of values. Simply because you externalize a force doesn't make it anything more than a concept.

If anything, you're advocating for FULL ON GAY SPACE COMMUNISM here without even realizing it.

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Everyone always hates on Yang, but he was the most appealing to me from the start.

>>54819979
>HFY, pseudo-nationalist mindset
Well, he is Russian dreaming about highly idealised image of Soviet Union which he never experienced first-hand, so go figure.

The history of life and civilization is the history of our everlosing war against entropy. It has and it will have a lot of battles but, unless we figure out a way to reverse entropy, we will lose it. It may take billions or even trillions of years, but in the long run we are all fated to extinction, even the atoms themselves.

>>54820036
>Everyone always hates on Yang
Literally who and where? Just reading this thread should give you a proper assesment, somewhere around "Yang is weird, but makes a lot of good points, but is still weird and strange"

>>54820025
I don't have a problem with full on gay space communism as long as space is included and it cannot be disproven that any of those things are inherently inhuman or misanthropic.
Our current problem is indeed that we've got poor comprehension of what it is to be human, but this is not in and of itself an insurpassable obstacle.

>>54820050
>Edgy; The Post
I had to be really weird as a teen, since I never had nihilistic phase in my life.

>>54819971
And I'm sure the next grand Communism attempt will result in another spinoff version as well.

Until humanity can reasonably stand on the backs of robotic labor, like, actual, do-everything-we-currently-have-the-Mexicans-doing manual labor, all that neato star-trek hypersocialism stuff just isn't viable.

>>54820062
Define what is human or inhuman
Pro-tip: you can't, because it's the same type of bullshit concept as "natural laws". In fact, it's a direct offshot of those "laws". And much bigger minds than you tried to define that, until they eventually figured out it's impossible.

>>54820074
>Until humanity can reasonably stand on the backs of robotic labor
Lol if it happens elites will wipe out the proles and leave only the ones willing to serve as slaves for status symbol. It will in fact destroy humanity.

>>54820074
>I never heard about Scandis
Must be part of the shit-tier American education.

>>54820036
The video for 'The Ascetic Virtues' is easily my favorite in the entire game.
>>54820055
Hard to dismiss is how I would sum him up.
>>54820062
>Our current problem is indeed that we've got poor comprehension of what it is to be human

I don't think that's true at all. The problem is that we *want* humanity to be better than it is, but it can't be, because that's not what humanity is. We are dumb, flawed apes with a comprehension that exceeds our rasp. We have access to nearly limitless energy and food, right now, but we chose to make others suffer and starve due to tribalism. There's no answer to 'how to make us respect what it is to be human' because it's not a concept that we can be made to inherently accept.

>>54820110
Not him, but from where, aside your ass, you are pulling that?
Seriously, this thread is getting dangerously edgy.

>>54820110
Cool story. You should write a book about it.

What's the point of human slaves if you have cheaper, more durable robotic slaves?

>>54820036
Yang has his appeal if you don't have to live in his little Hell on Earth, sorry the Planet

>>54820090
I won't define a property that is yet to be determined. Anyone who fucking initiates a misanthropic argument with "define humanity" needs to realise that this isn't fucking mathematics we're discussing and concepts have to fit an observed reality to be true.

>>54820055

>>54817687
>>54818969
>>54819388
Even most that like Yang just like his interesting ideas and don't actually like his execution of said ideas (the human hive)

>>54820116
One size definitely does not fit all.

>>54820143
>What's the point of human slaves if you have cheaper
Status symbols as I said? Power and vanity are more powerful motivations than money. Wealthy Romans often had thousands of slaves which they had no use other than showing wealth and status.

>>54820050
>implying we won't just cut our way into a younger universe

To someone even 100 years ago, the prospect of colonizing another planet was science fiction at most. Imagine what we will be able to do once the technology snowball starts rolling in earnest.

>>54820181
[Citation Fucking Needed]

>>54820142
I pulled it from your ass, no surprise you didn't notice given how stretched it is

>>54820072

There's nothing edgy about this. It is merely a the scientific prediction of the evolution of the universe unless we beat the laws of physics: The Heat Death.

>>54820159
Being >>54819388 I DO like the execution of Human Hive on conceptual level. Not as the fact they live in intentionally cramped, overcrowded bleak concrete space and are divided on castes, but because Yang is the only leader to REALLY reinvent his society, rather than just adding some flavour to pre-existing societal structures and concepts.

He instead made a blank slate and filled it anew from the start, rather than gradually evolving toward new society like other factions do.

>>54820202
You forget that we made those laws, and we owe ourselves to beat them.

>>54819949
Chile killed a lot of enemies to humanity, communists. That's a great accomplishment. And they did it in style.

>>54820181
Do you at least realise status symbol is something a MIDDLE class bothers about? Rich elite doesn't need to, because they are rich elite. Poor proles meanwhile are too busy trying to survive.

So your concept is retarded from its inception, even without discussing robots and slavery.

PS
Romans used those slaves for cheap labour, because it was cheaper that way than paying them wage on the long run, you stupid shit.

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>>54820202
>It is merely a the scientific prediction of the evolution of the universe

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Welp, this was a decent thread 'til the fucking /pol/fags showed up.

>>54820276
You mean leftypol and reddit.

>>54820247

Open any book about the laws of thermodynamics.

>>54820234
They need it to maintain their status n the eyes of the peers, my retarded friend

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>>54820276
Are we being raided?

>>54820192
Not thousands but one guy had four hundred domestic slaves, all executed after his death due to custom. Others could have more, can't find the right source now.
"Whom shall the number of his slaves protect, when four hundred could not shield Pedanius Secundus?"
Tacitus Annals XIV 43

>>54820247

Even if the universe were not destined to expand forever, the stars will run out of all the hidrogen that feeds them. It will take trillions of years, but the last star will die out leaving only stellar remnants behind.

>>54820294
>If I apply laws of thermodynamics to imaginary model of society, this will somehow stick
This is what you get for cutting funding for schools - people who know bunch of "fancy" words and maybe even their meaning, then trying to apply them to different context than they are given.

Pro-tip, junior: laws of thermodynamics apply to thermodynamics. If you are applying them to sociology in a direct faction, you are performing the so-called "pop science". Something that pretends to be scientific, but is just pure ignorance peppered with scientific terms.

>>54820303
Then need it to feed the Republic/Empire, my moron. Jesus, it's like you know jack shit about Roman agriculture or agriculture at all.

>>54820352
They had enough for that task already, my friendly imbecile

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>>54820323
>>54820289
Are you clinically retarded? Oh, wait, yup.
>>54820328
So you walked back your statement and are full of shit. Good to know.

>>54820328
>So there was this guy once, and he did something, but I have no sources for that, so you know, it has to be true.

>>54820345
>2017
>There are still people who never heard about Big Bang or think its some lame sitcom.

Why are /v/'s SMAC threads so much better than ours? We couldn't even get more than 10 replies before some rabid dude started rambling about how much he hates "fundies" and "whitewashing".

>>54820352

Im not applying anything to a different context. I just dont see the point to keeping the human form that will eventually become extinct.

>>54820388
>I have no sources for that
>Tacitus Annals XIV 43
Learn to read, dumb nigga

>>54820372
>Enough
To have even the most basic sustaniability in agriculture, you need to have a 3:1 grain ratio. Meaning for each grain planted, you must collect back at least 3.

Roman technology and agriculture know-how allowed to have 2.9:1 outside latifundia and 3.05:1 in latifundias.
Aka they couldn't feed themselves, unless running slave grain plantations

>>54820373
I take it you think 400 servants is very small number. I wonder why?

>>54820128
Inherently accept? Of course, there are a million ways to make a million more palatable concepts, but they all fail the basic scrutiny in that when they compromise some yet unidentified aspect of the human psyche they immediately seek to rectify the psyche rather than the ideal. Only over the course of entire generations does adaptation of social civics occur to better reflect human nature as we come to better understand our wants, needs and desires. And whatever you may perceive as sadistic or cruel may, in fact, be an element of that great formula. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. As I stated before we owe humanity everything and denying it for any reason is misanthropy.

>>54820276
Never been to /pol/ but I won't believe they accept misanthropy of the level this thread has. Wether socialist Jew, ancap Trumptard or neo-Nazi Hillaryshill, they would never bed with a fucking alien.

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>>54820373
No u. Now, stop shitting up the thread.

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>>54820389
I've got this image stored especially for post like yours.

Also
>(You)

>>54820405
>If I get a qoute about something else, it will still count
The irony about your "learn to read" is just amazing, friendo.

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>>54820429
I declare this thread derailed beyond repair

Shame, really

>>54820467
Care to show your reading skills again, pal? >>54820423

>>54817568
>>54818783
Each of the factions represents the things that destroyed the old world:

Lal: Ineffective and overly bureaucratic juggernaut governments.
Zakharov: Irresponsible use of science to develop WMDs
Miriam: Fanaticism
Yang: Collectivism
Santiago: Militarism
Dierdre: Disregard for human life

But they also represent the best of humanity too, all of mankind's ideals: respect for the rights of others, curiosity about the universe, ethics and faith in God, sacrifice of your own desires for the greater good, self-perfection and responsibility to the environment. (Miriam turns out to be right about a lot of things: we see a world where AI-ruled colonies are executing people for graffiti, grey goo breaks down matter and people to turn them into weapons, and people are having their souls detached by teleportation)

The metaplot is that Dierdre was first to talk to Planet, but the others did in time. As the planet began to awaken, all their petty wars became meaningless because mankind was now facing mass-extinction, and they worked together to build the Voice of Planet.

At the ascent to transcendence cutscene, there are 7 pillars with 7 people standing on them, the same as the number of factions. I think this represents how the factions all united in the end to share transcendence.

>>54820507
>Still no source
>Directing to made up claim
>And a claim completely out of context
Like the other guy said, shame this thread has to die due to classic influx of cunts.

>>54820519
>Still no source
>Tacitus Annals XIV 43
Anon, are you seriously retarded?

>>54820518
>Zakharov
>WMDs
>Dierdre
>Disregard for human life
This is getting better and better. Next post:
Lal, the Secret Child-Eater!

>>54820429
The issue is that again, you're putting all this baggage on a surface that cannot support it, because it's made of ever-shifting sand. There's no refinement of the psyche, there are merely more effective barriers and channels to normal human behavior set up. We are no more intelligent or perceptive than our forebearers because there's no appreciable biological differences since then.
>denying it for any reason is misanthropy
And what's the issue is that? I owe them nothing because I never asked for anything. If someone walks up to you on the street and says, "Hey, here's a Ferrari." and hands over the title and keys then walks off, do you owe them anything? Because I don't think you do. Anyway, like >>54820503, i'm done with the thread. Bye.

>>54820533
Which part of "your quote describes something completely unrelated with your claim" you didn't get the first, second and third time?

Didn't scientist discovered two planets in the habitable zone of Alpha Centauri?

I never understood how people liked these factions. I could never find one I actually liked.

>>54819874
Not that guy, but can you return to whatever heavily-moderated hellhole you crawled out of?

>>54820554
Yep, you are actually retarded
>>54820423
>I take it you think 400 servants is very small number. I wonder why?

>>54820561
Source please, very invested. Last I checked they only found the possibility of two planets being in what could be a habitable zone.

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>>54820574
>Not the guy, but let me shit on this thread some more, so it will not only stay derailed, but now also on fire!
Guess I'll follow suit with other anons and abandon this thread

>>54820561
Was it discovered after the game was released?

>>54820536
Zakharov developing nerve gas in secret:

>The Academician's private residences shall remain off-limits to the Genetic Inspectors. We possess no retroviral capability, we are not researching retroviral engineering, and we shall not allow this Council to violate faction privileges in the name of this ridiculous witch hunt!"
>Fedor Petrov, Vice Provost for University Affairs

Dierdre using mind worms to horrifically genocide an enemy colony:
>As the writhing, teeming mass of mindworms swarmed over the outer perimeter, we saw the defenders recoil in horror. "Stay calm! Use your flame guns!" shouted the commander, but to no avail. It is well know that the Mind Worm Boil uses psychic terror to paralyze its prey, and then carefully implants ravenous larvae into the brains of its still-conscious victims. Even with the best weapons, only the most disciplined troops can resist this horrific attack.
>Lady Deirdre Skye, "Our Secret War"

>>54820561

Since live on our planet spent most of its historyin uni-cellular form, you should expect that most habitable planets will end up being smelly slimeballs.

>>54820572
Make your own using fac-edit like HFY faggot >>54819154

>>54820536
Lal's character flaw is that he can't let go of the past (still trying to uphold the original UN mission and rebuild the old world).

His wife was killed during the Chaos on the Unity, and he couldn't let go. He kept her DNA to clone her in the hopes that the clone would love him like the original did.

>I loved my chosen. How then to face the day when she left me? So I took from her body a single cell, perhaps to love her again.
>Commissioner Pravin Lal, "Time of Bereavement"

>>54820613
That's a good thing, though. Easier to exterminate than something that can fight back, hell our immune systems keep us protected from bacteria all the time.

>>54820561
>>54820595
Nope, sorry.
There is a planet, and a bigger one than Earth, next to Alpha Centauri A. Thing is, it's so close to the star, it makes look Mercury as distant as Pluto.
Meaning it is pretty much safe to assume there is no way for life to exist there.

BUT!
The Planet orbits Alpha Centauri B, so maybe...

http://sfdebris.com/videos/games/alphacentauri.php

>>54820603
m8, like 99% (if not more) of the exoplanets we discovered were discovered after the game came out.
And yes, that includes those around Alpha Centauri's stars.

>>54820606
>nerve gas
*I meant bioweapons

>>54820656
>hell our immune systems keep us protected from bacteria all the time
It's not very likely our immune system would be suitable against alien organisms

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>>54820657

Actually, the habitable zone of any Red Dwarf will be closer than Mercury. They would be tidal locked, and dangerously exposed to solar flares, though.

>>54820676
>m8, like 99% (if not more) of the exoplanets we discovered were discovered after the game came out.
Fuck you are right. Where is the surge of games about space colonization?

>>54820650
>His wife was killed during the Chaos on the Unity, and he couldn't let go.
Sounds more like a basic character flaw that fleshes him out as a person than an ideological failing, desu. I don't think he'd throw a shitfit if the clone didn't love him back, at least.

>>54820606
>Dierdre using mind worms to horrifically genocide an enemy colony
Nothing like picking that quote out of any context and going full retard.
It's like you never followed the Spartan-Gaian war, or rather what was Gaian-Spartan war from Gaian perspective AND Spartan resistance against the Planet from Spartan perspective.
They didn't know they are at war. And they've started it!

One of the main points about Santiago and her quotes is about pointing out that sticking to old ways is going to kill you, even if you are in-universe faction of preppers and military nutjobs. So what if Spartans run down their economy to build more guns, tanks and train more troops, if they NEVER bothered to actually research on their enemy or the terrain they are going to fight in. In fact, this makes it further ironic, because all the quotes about importance of information and flexibility comes from... Santiago.
And Spartans are the least flexible of all factions, fighting old war like it was old Earth.

>>54820716
>picking that quote out of any context
Justifying atrocities by worm worshippers? Oh boy, here we fucking go.

>>54820713
Misanthropes have infiltrated every level of society in the hopes that staying put and making Earth work is better than galactic domination. They do this because they know that should humanity permanently exceed the space frontier it cannot be stopped and their manipulative ideologies will become void within months.

>>54820716
Yeah anon, nothing wrong with killing everyone in a city with larvas that cause extreme trauma and then inject their spawn into your brains.

>>54820732
>Atrocities
Not him, but since when sending your military force against other military force is an atrocity and not, you know, basic conduct of war and so-called skirmish? Or battle, if it's big enough?

>>54820768
Because bombaring it from orbit is sooo much humane... Or attacking it with infantry supported by planes and artillery.

Pro-tip: war is hell.

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>>54820716
Literally where the hell are you getting this from?

If you're talking about the books, you must be too dumb to notice that nobody else here is, because they aren't canon.

>>54820770
Not him either, but using alien worms for mind-fucking attacks instead of honest and true man-made weapons is an atrocity by default.
Making them police your own people is even worse.

>>54820770
Since it involved invading the personal minds of the soldiers with mind rape.

>>54820770
>since when sending your military force against other military force is an atrocity
Since sending said 'military force' to torture and kill other military force in unspeakably excruciating manner? I know space hippies are soulless sociopaths but don't be so obvious about it.

>>54820788
From the game.
You played it... right?

>>54820797
By your definition any form of combat that involves anything else than individual duels, Bronze Age style, it an atrocity. Aka history of war for past 3500 years.

>>54819947
>machine guns, cars and planes.
There is a key difference between the tech in alpha centauri and guns and cars. Guns and cars and planes all require human action to work. Nukes and surveillance all need a true human element to put into motion and sustain. Self-aware machines don't. Clones making clones don't. Humanity forcefully evolved beyond its previous shell into brains in jars, unmaking and remaking reality as seen fit, a living planet, androids none of these are anywhere near human anymore. Teleportation destroys and remakes the body, and creating guns that tear you apart, string by string, is literally unmaking God's creation at the smallest possible level. Remember, the humanity you see before you has been extinct for hundreds of years by the time transcendence is even talked about by homo superior. The faction leaders are the last of a dead breed. Miriam has loads of justification that the faction leaders have become complete and total monsters, throwing away everything once human for a petty edge on their competitors.

>>54820770
Since when a military force is eating larvas? Is gas sarin a military force?

>>54820783
Protip: warcrimes are a thing and humanity got together and recognized several weapons as too inhumane to be used. Too bad you aren't human enough to recognize this.

>>54820714
>I don't think he'd throw a shitfit if the clone didn't love him back, at least.
Do you love me, my dear?

Then we shall try again.

>>54820827
>eating your brains while you are alive and aware
>anything else than individual duels, Bronze Age style
I fail to see the connection

>>54818496
>but on another, hostile planet she has definitely got a point
Therein lies the problem, she and her ilk were never meant to make it to Planet. She purposefully stocked as many of her indoctrinated doomsday preppers on board as possible. She was gearing up for a mutiny before they even launched skyward.

>>54820824
Different anon and adding my chips to the table here:
Have you ever lived through artillery barrage?
I did.
There is nothing more soul-wrenching than artillery barrage. Just the sound of it is enough.
And it's perfectly legal, allowed form of attack during war, considered civilised and humane.
Tell that to people who lived through it.
I also know how rattle of gunfire sounds over your APC. Not fun. Not humane. Not sane.

But surely, that's all OK, but doing something equally horrible is atrocity, because lo and behold, it doesn't involve guns and conventional attacks.

>>54820827
Yes, in this game, Santiago talks about flexibility and intelligence and morale, and there's no in game quotes to support the idea that she was just sitting around with her thumb in her butt not practicing military tactics.

There's also strong evidence that Dierdre used mind worms to attack Santiago's followers.

>>54820830
>Just proving the point: The Post
Thanks, mate.

>>54820859
Sounds out of character to be honest.

>>54820863
I mean I would love it if warfare was literally all cowboy duels but even trench warfare is better than mind worms. The body is just a vessel for the mind - let the body die, but the mind must remain free.

>>54820897
>Have you ever lived through artillery barrage?
So you are American marine, right? Whose was that artillery strike again?

>>54820863
Then check your reading comprehension, because you are trying to make a connection that is explicitly not there.

>>54820911
And I'm not denying any of that. I'm just pointing out Santiago got beaten in her own fucking game, not even realising she's at state of war. From her perspective, it was hostile fauna.

>>54820770
The term "atrocity" in game is based on the UN charter, which was drafted before the Unity was launched; and never amended.

So the only reason that military use of mind worms isn't considered an atrocity is because nobody on Earth knew they existed.

I wonder what it'd have been like if the escape pods had landed close enough together they'd have ended up with only one colony in the beginning. Would the faction leaders be waging guerrilla wars to kill their adversaries? for independence? Organizing strikes? Getting elected to change things? Fucking off with anyone they could convince and starting a new country?

>>54820897
War is terrible, but the means of war outlawed are noticeably worse.

>>54820911
Not to mention high morale troops are a natural counter to mind worms. Deirdre can bludgeon Yang to all hells but she'd never beat Santiago even in an unfair fight.

>>54820937
I'm Ukrainian. And hard to tell, it was either Russians, or, which is much worse perspective, most likely other Ukrainian, but on the other side.

>>54820897
>I lived through this thing and it sucked
>that means it's as bad as breathing mustard gas
Artillery barrages are used on action zones, they don't make you collapse and drown on your lungs or submit you to endless pain until death with no hope of survival.

>>54820918
Nigger don't try and tell me that a gun firing bullets because a human somewhere pulled the trigger is anywhere near the same as cloned psychic android ubermensche followed by legions of literal mind eating worms firing mind bullets at you being supported by an AI tank with zero oversight but the faction leader, a known monster, telling it "Go".

>>54820942
>Then check your reading comprehension
Anon, I was making a post to get your (You). In fact your original bumbling here >>54820827
doesn't make any sense at all.

>>54820942
There's no evidence that more than one or two bases were wiped out, that she never found out that Dierdre was responsible, or that she lost the war. She's still there in the later techs, still making quotes.

In terms of gameplay anyways, the mind worm rush is a pretty big deal that anyone can be hit by, but Santiago has the best advantage against it.

>>54820967
Too bad you're full of shit and that canonically the spartans get the shit kicked out of them by the Hippies. How about you fucking deal with it.

>>54820965
Tell that to a guy who stepped on a perfectly legal land mine or lost his arm (by being torn-off) after being hit with perfectly legal HMG.

>>54820977
>I'm Ukrainian.
And which side you were on?

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>You will never colonize a planet orbiting a type O stars.
>Seasons last thousands of years.
>UV radiation all over the place.
>Thousands of potential planets sharing your orbit.
>Endless solar power.

>>54820997
And it's different, because...?
Aside arbitrary "those are inhuman means". You know what's inhuman? Trying to justify this or that mean of waging fucking war as "humane".
IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. The only thing this division does is trying to find some "agreeable" means of fighting. There are none.

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>>54821014
Okay. Tell that to victims of mustard gas.

>>54821024
But then unless you have bullshitium, it'd be way too hard to exploit the other planets, wouldn't it?

>>54821013
Anon, I know you want to get sexy scottish hippie pussy but her vagina is full of worms. Gunslinger musclewoman is strictly superior.

>>54821052
>And it's different, because...?
>legions of literal mind eating worms firing mind bullets at you
???

>>54819947
This would be a fine comparison if Miriam was advocating for a completely luddite way of life, but instead, she's simply the only one advising some sort of caution into what we're doing. It's not "don't look into this because it's dangerous," it's "we need to more carefully consider the implications and ramifications of this tech before we call it ready for implementation." Which exactly matches up with her faction traits, particularly -slower- scientific progress rather than a lack of progress altogether.

Her religious vibes are harder to interpret, because it doesn't really go that deep into what exactly she's got going on, perhaps as a way to avoid offending more religious minded folk at the time. Religion obviously plays a large role in Miriam's society, but that's not to say that's the singular use of everyone's time, nor are other factions absent from religion either. What we're presented with is that Miriam simply takes the same hardline stance on her ideology that all other factions do, since there's no room for competing ideas under anyone's banner except maybe Lal.

>>54821066
>Gunslinger musclewoman is strictly superior.
If only she had a good build. What are they even good for in the game? Scientific and industrial types are better at the war than Spartans.

>>54821019
The Ukrainian side.
And I know how this sounds for foreigners, but it's hard to say "I'm Ukrainian" and then fight for Russians or trying to tear a country apart.
Besides, they don't claim to be Ukrainians, for the record. More about "Novorussians". You know, the type of deal pulled with the Transnistria? Where they don't claim to be Moldavian, but they also deny to be Russians.

>>54821014
Not him, but sure.

I will tell him that even through he stepped on a mine and that's horrible,at least we don't have entire battalion being chocked to death with nerve gas.

>>54821052
It doesn't even have to do with the fucking war m8. It has to do with the fact that Miriam saw her fucking race die before her and get replaced by its creations. Humanity played God then keeled over and I don't know what kind of religion you worship if you think those implications wouldn't fuck you up.

>>54821013
How about you take your headcanon out of it?

see >>54821012

Spartans develop the Neural Amplifier as acountermeasure against the mind worms:
>Against such abominations, we organize our defenses on the principle that one strong and able mind can shield the many.
>Spartan Battle Manual

Spartan hostility towards Dierdre:
>I don't know but I've been told, Deirdre's got a Network Node. Likes to press the on-off switch, Dig that crazy Gaian witch!
>Spartan Barracks March

Spartans still around by the endgame techs:
>I have often been asked: if we have traveled between the stars, why can we not launch the simplest of orbital probes? These fools fail to understand the difficulty of finding the appropriate materials on this Planet, of developing adequate power supplies, and creating the infrastructure necessary to support such an effort. In short, we have struggled under the limitations of a colonial society on a virgin planet. Until now.
>Col. Corazon Santiago, "Planet: A Survivalist's Guide"

By all accounts: they were attacked by Dierdre in an undeclared war false flagging as native life; they lost several bases; they developed countermeasures, rallied, fought her off, and remained a major faction.

>>54821062
Which in times when it was used was perfectly legal.
See a pattern here?

>>54821078
Yes, because it is "better" to be just mowed down by machine gun, right? Sooo much better

>>54821052
It's inhuman because it's not human. Why is this difficult to understand?
>>54821062
Mustard gas still better than mind worms. I would probably make Soporific Gas Pods an atrocity as well as Nerve Gas. For SOME reason using mind worms in military action is NOT an atrocity, though.

>>54821102
It's sounds fine, I'm Russian. Hope you got medal for fighting in the dumb ATO.

>>54821125
And now it's illegal, and so are landmines in many countries.

>>54821125
>Yes, because it is "better" to be just mowed down by machine gun, right?
Yep, quick death through traumatic amputation and bleeding is better than brain eating larvas. Go figure.

>>54821125
>Yes, because it is "better" to be just mowed down by machine gun, right? Sooo much better
Yes its preferable to get shot then have the larva of a fucking space bug eat its way out of your frontal fucking lobe. Yes its better to just get blown up rather than dragged to the salty depths and get faceraped by literal sea monsters.

>>54821024

>1000 astronomical units.

It's a big star.

>>54821124
>Satelites
>Endgame techs
That's literally the start of mid-game, you moron.

Her highest quote is from the grey goo secret project. And the last one if I recall correctly. While mentioning impact rifles. Which is a pretty dated tech at this point of the game.
Meaning Spartans were pulling the last leg with that grey goo.

Also, have you EVER moved your HQ?
Because it describes the conquest of Spartan Command by Gaians. Everyone killed by mindworms. Everyone.

>>54821125
The pattern that certain war methods are determined to be too torturous after use? I'm not certain what you think you're getting at. That mustard gas and mind worms both follow the same pattern? Yes

>>54820830
>Self-aware machines don't.
They'd need humanity to get things started, or are you suggesting God dropped by and made them?

>Clones making clones don't.
Clone a human, and you get a human.

>is literally unmaking God's creation at the smallest possible level.
As far as creation is concerned, that's just bunch of elementary particles interacting as per their natures. Nothing more and nothing less before, during, and after the weapon is used.

>Miriam has loads of justification that the faction leaders have become complete and total monsters
I keep hearing similar things said about our current western civilisation, from people like al-Zarqawi and Kim Yong Un. We don't assume them to be right.

>>54821125
Yes, it's much better to be shot than having your brains eaten while receiving ultimate pain and horror. Any other stupid questions?

>>54821147
>Still missing the point
Jesus fucking Christ, is it REALLY so fucking hard to grasp the concept of "war is bad and you are a naughty boy for fightning one, regardless of means used"?!

>>54821197
> regardless of means used
Some boys are worse than others. How hard is it to grasp?

>>54820830
>unmaking God's creation at the smallest possible level
Don't want to sound like fedora, but did you just made a creationist rant?

>>54821197
No one is saying war is great, what are you even autistically rambling about?

>>54821224
Hard, if not outright impossible.
Because regardless of means used you end up with dead and maimed people.

>>54821240
About war ultimately being utterly shit, no matter what? And you all jump to some stupid conclusion that this or that way of concudcing it is ok.
None is.
You end up with dead people. Doesn't matter if you just execute them with well-placed piece of metal in their brain before their mind registered being blown into pieces or subdue them to hours of tortute of gas attack.
Because you killed them.

Dunno, you kids never heard about pacifism or something?

>>54821230
No, i'm fucking agnostic at best and atheist at worst but goddamn autists can't seem to grasp why a religious leader might have a problem with creating fucking life, giving unfeeling machines complete control over the very city you live in, and altering the basic human form to exact specifications.

>>54821268
>maimed people
Give them prosthetics. Can't give prosthetic brain to mindworm victims, can you?

>>54821124
>How about you take your headcanon out of it?
How about you play and read the fucking game. Santiago fucking dies, along with the rest of her Spartan jerk-offs. It's detailed in a bunch of the techs, bot most especially in projects dealing with psi morale. Now kindly go exercise your 2nd amendment rights on your own fucking skull.
>>54821066
Until gunslinger muscle woman gets psychically raped to death by worms controlled by the Scot's mind. Whoops, backed the wrong horse again, South America.

>>54821268
Why the fuck are you having an autistic rant about pacifism in a discussion about the moral integrity of AC factions. Ok, war is hell, peace on earth. Now fuck off, we're talking about mind worm brain rape. I pray you never wind up in a 40k thread.

>>54821268
>About war ultimately being utterly shit, no matter what?
And that justifies Deirdre using brain eating worms?

You are talking out of your ass. Saying 'war is bad', even through that wasn't the topic means shit. Of course war is bad, nobody argued otherwise you fucking retard.

>>54821268
I heard Tibet was conquered instantly by China, does that count?

>>54821290
Lal was concerned with M/M interface too. Generally speaking Miriams negatives outweigh her one positive.

>>54821268
So you believe that only the end result matters, not the sensory input along the way? So being tortured to death is equivalent to being shot in the head?

>>54820716
I always read that quote as Wild Worms v. Gaians: the Early Years Before We Figured Out How To Control This Shit.

>>54821290
Anon, I think you are jumping to a lot of conclusions here.
I'm perfectly aware why Miriam has problem with high tech. But there is a fuck-huge difference between her having those problems and me understanding why AND those problems being simply illogical, stupid and outright retarded in the long run.

Let's use one of the best examples possible, shall we? For absolutely no reason, Catholic Church for centuries forbid autopsy, in utterly retarded (and against own scripture, for that matter) conclusion about literal reanimation of your dead body upon the kingdom come (or whatever it's called in English, sorry, I'm not exactly fluent with Catholic terminology in English, not my native language). Either way, for religious reasons they've forbid to study dead body, claiming moral concern and inhuman behaviour.
Because it's sooooo bad to study human anatomy and body as such, right?

As already noted in this tread (probably even by you), Miriam goes from "well, there is science and it can be useful" to "WE MUST DISSENT! EVERYTHING IS EVIL!"

>>54821349
Gunslinger muscle woman uses neural amplifier with super stronk morale modifier and attacks Scot woman twice, wiping out her and her entire worm stack. Check-mate, Brexit.

>>54821377
Not him, but it took almost two months. Not because fighting or resitance or anything - simply one of the worst terrains possible.

>>54821413
This is just like my Japanese animes!

>>54821391
Me too.

In fact, if not that one quote when you move Headquarters, I would never even connect Deidre quotes with Santiago's

>>54821434
Correction accepted, but by comparison I've hardly been able to accomplish anything these last two months.

>>54821446
What's the quote when you moved headquarters?

>>54821460
Well, if you want a really quick war, there is Anglo-Zanzibar war. Lasted whole 40 minutes. 47 if you account for time between declaration of war and aiming the artillery.

>>54820116
You mean scandinavia? Because if you think that is communism I have no problem with that. The communism that steals from everyone, turns everyone in a slave and is the worst ideology in existence communism is definitely something I have a problem with.

>>54821490
As we approached we were confronted by the ruined splendor of Sparta Command. The true immensity of the place became instantly apparent as our Quantum Tank crunched over the rubble and parked next to a shattered bunker, but the extent of the destruction took weeks to assess. The shielded datacore had sustained several massive breaches and smoke still billowed from the numerous cannon ports. There were few signs of human life.

Lady Deirdre Skye
"Our Secret War"

=====

Hippies beat the shit out of Spartans. That's why so many people have a hateboner against Deidre. Because she "unfairly" trumped over THE military faction of the game.

>>54821413
And where did this happen in the game's fluff? Oh wait, it didn't instead we get quotes like this:

>The klaxon began to wail, but we felt the reassuring tingle of the Tachyon Field crackling to life around us, encasing the entire base in its impenetrable glow.
Spartan Kel, "The Fall of Sparta"

or

>Mary had a little lamb, Little lamb little lamb, Mary had a little lamb, whose fleece was white as snow.
Assassins' Redoubt Final Transmission
Accompanies the Secret Project "The Dream Twister"

or

>As the writhing, teeming mass of mindworms swarmed over the outer perimeter, we saw the defenders recoil in horror. "Stay calm! Use your flame guns!" shouted the commander, but to no avail. It is well know that the Mind Worm Boil uses psychic terror to paralyze its prey, and then carefully implants ravenous larvae into the brains of its still-conscious victims. Even with the best weapons, only the most disciplined troops can resist this horrific attack.
Lady Deirdre Skye, "Our Secret War"
Accompanies the Secret Project "The Citizen's Defense Force"

Oh, and finally:

>As we approached we were confronted by the ruined splendor of
Sparta Command. The true immensity of the place became instantly
apparent as our Quantum Tank crunched over the rubble and parked next
to a shattered bunker, but the extent of the destruction
took weeks to assess. The shielded datacore had sustained several
massive breaches and smoke still billowed from the numerous cannon
ports. There were few signs of human life.

-- Lady Deirdre Skye,
"Our Secret War"

I'm sure it went real fucking well for them.

>>54821502
The word you are looking for is socialism, anon. The one to describe Scandinavia. In fact, socialism is wrong term too. A welfere left-leaning (because you can be right-leaning welfare state) democracy is the closest way to describe it. They are not exactly left, they are definitely not communist and they are hardly socialist, for that matter.

Unless you are American, then they are evil commies ofc.

>>54817568
Kinda disappointed with modern gaming now to be honest.

Political issues are tiptoed around instead of dealing with it directly, even in fictional settings.

>>54821495
I was trying to cite a conflict between a super power and, this is important, a pacifist theocracy.

>>54821502
Being convinced to give up yourself through generations of social engineering is far worse and far more draconian than just being forced to work for the state. State socialism is the best form of communism.

>>54821563
So Americans are the only ones who have the right of it?

>>54821545
See >>54821124

If Santiago was dead, it would be hard for her to develop orbital spaceflight or develop the Neural Amplifier.

>>54821490
>>54821519
So think about it.
You move your HQ.
Read that description.
Then recall that all those fluff-quotes are still context-sentitive.
Who moved where?
And how can you move to a base that is someone else HQ and probably the best base of said faction?

It's kind of that infamous Yang's quote after building Recycle Tanks and it hits you what EXACTLY have you build.

>>54821545
Anon, the game's "canonical" story sucks. Why even play the game if you're gonna wank off to the supposed "canon"?
The game's MECHANICS indicate Santiago shouldn't lose to Gaians. Wether it happens or not is entirely up to the match progression.

Before you accuse me of moving the goalposts, I'm not >>54821124.

>>54821592
No, but they are the least politically-informed nation in the so-called "first world" when we misattribute "first world" to highly developed countries. For the record, they seriously consider their Democratic Party to be political left and are utterly unable to distinguish even central-lined parties from left-leaning ones.
It says something about their political system and political scene as such.

>>54819668
What were the past mistakes?

>>54821671
>HURR SPARTAN STRONG DURRR
Different anon, but this is your post in a nutshell.
By game mechanics, Miriam is twice as disfuntional as her fluff indicates. Does it mean she's even worse than people claim, basing their claims on her fluff?

Which society would you actually want to live in.

I want to say Spartans, but in reality it's Morgan industries

>>54819798
Hmmmm you are starting to sound disgustingly collectivistic, I owe something to someone when I agree I do. Not for you to declare.

>>54821709
Gaians. If not taking new people in, then Lal I guess. And if SMAX allowed, then I guess I would be seriously tempted to consider the Consciousness

>>54821566
Beyond Earth tried, but they were pussies and they weren't willing to really flesh out every one the way that AC did. WHat you're missing in modern gaming is 'Give a Fuck', the people who made AC gave a fuck about their game, they lived it, they breathed. BE? They didn't care at all, they fucking churned it out using Civ V's base code and barely even slapped a different pallet on it.
>>54821608
The NA was developed, then the Dream Twister was developed to counteract it, it comes later in the tech tree and it directly references the FMV for the Neural Amplifier. Orbital spaceflight is mid-game at least and is way, way, way before either the NA or DT.

Every single tech advancement shows the Spartans trying increasingly desperate and dehumanizing tactics to try and keep up with the Big-Gs, that's why they start using cyborg factories, that's why they start cloning, that's why they start using hail-marys like Nano-bombs. Because they're getting the piss kicked out of them.

Dream Twister:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lva8L-J8x04

Neural Amplifier:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EghMCc6ftoA

>>54821638
So your defense is that the spartans held on, and what, didn't get utterly annihilated? How's the game usually going for you when your HQ gets taken Anon?

>>54821671
>hurrr duurrrrr, I have no argument, game's story doesn't real anyway.

>>54821405
> Miriam goes from "well, there is science and it can be useful" to "WE MUST DISSENT! EVERYTHING IS EVIL!"
When did this happen? She only showed problem with things like nanomachines or an alive Big Brother colony, which are very justified seeing how easily those things can get out of hand.

>>54821709
University or Peacekeepers, MAYBE Gaia if my lifetime comes in early-to-mid game before the symbiosis with planet really hits their culture/living conditions

>>54821563
I would describe it as the logical result of democracy, a state caring for it's citizens.

>>54821704
Yes? She tries to steal ALL the tech she can't fucking get, and implements it at her leisure. She's a hypocrite on top of everything.

>>54821717
>I owe something to someone only under consent
>Ergo, I don't agree to owe my existence to what created and empowered me, therefore I don't owe anyone anything.

Free speech is a mistake.

>>54821774
>University
Have fun being dissected alive.

>>54821709
Free Drones

>>54821766
The true crossing point for her seems to be:
>Beware, you who seek first and final >principles, for you are trampling the garden of >an angry God, and He awaits you just beyond >the last theorem.
— Sister Miriam Godwinson, "But for the Grace of God" (Accompanies discovery of the "Unified Field Theory" tech)

>>54821588
Why should I care what the best form of communism is? I want communism to die as quickly as it can.

>>54821807
>dissected alive
It's called vivisection, Test Subject FY-4798

>>54821745
>How's the game usually going for you when your HQ gets taken Anon?
It's not a direct game over, but AI doesn't move it's HQ and in fact most players don't do that either (hence numerous people are unaware of the attatched quote). And the HQ is build in your first, and thus (theoretically) most developed base. It's also usually in the centre of your territory, meaning enemy had to crawl there first.

tl;dr - it means situation is REALLY bad. Maybe you still survive that, but at this point situation is definitely FUBAR. Usually it leads to being wiped out soon after.

>>54821832
Because it won't die as long as societies continue to rely on any form of internal bureaucracy to survive.

>>54821709
Morgan if I also get to be part of the elite.
If I just get to be an average joe, I think the Gaians are better than the other options. Lal a close third, of course.

>>54821798
Well, that's obvious for you and obvious for me.

Not so much for a whole bunch of people, which is depressing.

>>54821801
>Using unprecedensed freedom of speech provided by anonymous Vietnamese image board
>HURR FREEDOM IS BAD DURRR

>>54821745
>Because they're getting the piss kicked out of them.
Definitely. I mean that's why the US developed a doomsday weapon, cause they were losing WW2 so hard.

>>54821889
For average Joe, there is nothing better than Free Drones.
And this comes from somone absolutely adoring Gaians and Lal.

>>54821832

Why don't go out and leave in the woods?

>>54821918
Oh with expansion factions, surely.

>>54821918
We actually don't know much about Free Drones, do we?

>>54821774
>MAYBE Gaia if my lifetime comes in early-to-mid game before the symbiosis with planet really hits their culture/living conditions
Exact reverse for me. The further Gaians go, the better it gets, because the more they grasp the situation and the more efficient their green society gets.
And I seriously dig a high-tech "hippies" (because they have absolutely NOTHING to do with hippy movement).

>>54821971
They were Drones, now they are free

>>54821971
We know a lot from supporting material in the manual, official game page and so on (so no bullshit from the god-awful novels).
In short - an egalitarian utopia. Think Norway on steroids.

The sad part is they can't go Green, because they consider the well-being of their people more important than well-being of their surroinding. Which is a fucking bummer for me and and old mistake of the scientific approach that comes from "science will fix that!" and you may end up either as Norway the Second or Rural China Hellish Landscape No. 2

>>54822031
Do we consider the GURPS books a good source or no?

>>54821902
But anon, I don't agree that I owe 4chan my ability to post freely and anonymously. So I don't owe this Vietnamese image board anything!

>>54821745
>tfw this idiot will never shut the fuck up

>>54822064
I do.

They are more or less collection of all the fluff data, manual data, official lore, NO stuff from novels and all the things that have been added are based on the logical conclusion of accessable data but not going extreme with them.
I do have issues with "late game" stuff, but that comes from GURPS mechanics rather than the fluff, so go figure.

Personally I like how GURPS spins Yang, because he's the closest thing of "cool villain" of the setting, rather than obnoxious militarist or utterly incomprehensible Miriam bullshit that feels like you were forever struck with being in "early game" and initial stages of "mid game".

Also, I absolutely love how GURPS book cements down the way how Morgan Industries works. It's not as much as separate state, but the state REALLY being a corporation (and a one with human face, like Blizzard for its employees, only on national scale), with subsidiaries in other factions. So there is Morgan Industries as a separate company-state and then it exist like a regular multi-national corporation within factions, without going into nation bullshit, just business.

>>54822085
>>54822104
>I'm so out of arguments, insults are all I've got now.
Why don't you just leave to post for Putin somewhere in the net?

>>54821801
Euhm it was my mom and dad that created me. And I owe a lot to them, I don't owe shit to another random human.
Ofc you think free speech is a mistake, how can you try to steal from and control others when dissenters can speak freely.

>>54820189
That's faith, not logic. There's no connection between being able to colonize planets or "cut our way into a younger universe". The physical possibility of the former doesn't imply the latter. It might feel right to you that because we've been doing pretty well for the last few hundred years that will continue forever. And it might. But we have no way of knowing, so you're taking it on faith.

>>54821939
I live in a comfortable home, I know you commies want to take it away from me, but I guess that just sucks for you.

>>54822223
Bernout, Scandinavian socialism isn't the paradise on earth you think it is. In fact, it's pretty terrible. Speaking as a Swede, sub-par socialized medicine isn't worth paying 50-60% of your earnings in taxes, and I wish I had the right to carry a handgun and speak my mind without getting censored.

>>54822256
Don't relax, anon
Commies are gonna getcha

>>54822223
You don't like our president? He is better than dumb drunk Yeltsin at least.

>>54822287
Hello fellow 'murcan.

>>54821939
Not that guy, but why don't you take a helicopter ride? The world would be much better without your kind.

>>54822335
t. triggered leftist

Du har fel, idiot.

>>54822291
Eh it will take some time before they come and I plan to get them first.

>>54822287
>Trying this hard
How to know you are not talking with any real Scandi?
He will tell you his country is not the best in the world. All while having serious reasons to claim that.

Bonus points for not understaning local taxes, burger boy.

>>54822353
Jag kan också använda Google Translate!

>>54822303
This mentality never cease to amaze me in all Slaves. It directly comes from the fact you all (not just Russians) had serfdom till the tail end of the 19th century I guess
>What a great lord! You can eat his scraps! And he doesn't beat you too hard! Totally better than the previous drunk!

>>54822287
Can't deny it doesn't have problems. Sweedistan in particular. Netherlands and Belgium seem to be doing alright though.

>>54822238
Logic is for nerds and those faggots who are eventually going to join the singularity AI. I don't want no part in that.

>>54822377
>no Swede can possible dislike their paradise
How indoctrinated are you retards? Really, this is pretty amazing. And no, it's you that don't understand the taxation in this country.

Socialdemokrater är så jävla dumma.

>>54822360
They are everywhere, anon.
It could be you, it could be me.

>>54822287
>Swedish medical cover
>Sub-par
Yeah, nice way of ousting yourself, mate. One of the best medical care on this planet and you go with some retarded rants about it and taxes.
Which you of course managed to fudge too.

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>>54822419
>Still trying

>>54822400
>Slaves
Retardation of Westerners never cease to amaze me. I honestly didn't expect to see such stupid brainwashed tools but this is how it is.

>>54822425
You know nothing about our shitty healthcare except some propaganda you've ingested from some far-left outlet. I can't stand you fucking retards that think you know everything because you've watched the Daily show. Kill yourselves.

>>54822420
Nah they are not.

>>54822491
I see you bought into leftist propaganda

>>54822463
>What is auto-correct
Still makes you a cunt adoring a not!tzar

>>54822446
>so mind-fucked that he can't grasp the most basic truth
Whatever your indoctrination demands of you, dude.

>>54822485
It's time to stop posting, Anon.

>>54822485
>Our
Dane here. And you migh be anything, but you aint't Swede.
This is not /pol/, kid. Go derail other thread. This one just crossed bump limit

>>54822509
Sure bud.

>>54822551
>>54822552
>glorious socialism that nobody could have problems with
Just give it up. You're making fools out of yourselves.

>>54822527
Who said I adore him? I compare him to complete fail of the president. Not that we have any alternatives.

>>54822593
>You're making fools out of yourselves.
Said the guy shitposting about evil commie scare in Scandinavia in a fucking SMAC thread

>>54822634
Where did I mention communism? I'm just telling you that Bernie's stick about how great it is here up north is nothing but bullshit.

>>54822612
>Not that we have any alternatives.
This is what you get for electing autocrat in power - nobody else to vote for, because they end up in gulag and everyone is indoctrinated for 20 years straight to hate political freedom.
Not that much indoctrination was needed, since last time there was any freedom there it was Kievan Rus, so go figure.

The really sad thing is that today nobody would stop Yanayev coup. That's the best thing to sum up how bad things went for average Ivan Piotrovich.

>>54821563
Socialism and a welfare state are the best ways to ruin a country, because it goes from the erroneous assertion that people should be awarded stuff they didn't earn it. Plus socialism is a required step for communism and we all know how that thing goes.

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>>54822676
The worst part is that this might not be bait.

>>54822695
He's right, though.

>>54822695
>if I say something is bait I don't need to argue
Yes anon, people shouldn't be awarded wealth if they didn't generate it. For a socialist however that is unthinkable.

>>54822742
I don't need to argue with you if I chose to, it's that simple. I don't need any justification for that.

For an idiot, that must be unthinkable.

>>54822758
>I won't argue and you are an idiot
>no argument again
Then stfu and get out.

>>54822670
>and everyone is indoctrinated for 20 years straight to hate political freedom
Nah
>Not that much indoctrination was needed
Actually true, American aggression forced people to naturally accept this order of things. Heck even I got accustomed to it after all the shit Muricans did to destabilize countries near our borders, supporting terrorists, etc. They never stopped treating us like enemies and useful scarecrow for the their political goals. All this crap about relations reset button, yada yada. Actions speak for themselves.
>since last time there was any freedom there it was Kievan Rus
Fantasies
>Yanayev coup
Nobody is interested in that

>>54822676
Eh you can have it so that people only get welfare when they prove they are looking for work. So that's not necessary. As with healthcare you can still have a cost to healthcare but to make it affordable which will make sure people don't use the services for no reason. Also the stimulation of a culture that doesn't want to be leechy but just helps people that are unlucky get back on their feet is also an option.

>>54822287
Doesn't the government pay to send you to a better hospital if a localized one can't help you? I've met a few Swedes at MD Anderson in Houston, they said they were sent there due to their advanced condition.

>>54823302
Are you seriously expecting a reply on this from trolling burger?

>>54823322
I was hoping for one from an actual Scandi of some sort. I was never clear on the details of my encounter in the wild.

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>Resonance

>>54823302
Jag vet inget om det. I know nothing about that. I really don't like the wait-times for seeing specialists, 3-4 months in most cases. Everything is so slow. Also, like in all socialized systems, there's very little error-correction in the system. Lots of unnecessary deaths and mishaps.

>>54823371
>leave manifold to me

It was such a shitty bait, you don't even deserve a proper (You)

>>54823366
Anon, this might shock you, but this is how medical care works in every civilised country on this planet and even some semi-civilised ones - you are sent to a facility that can treat you. And if local one can't, then they simply HAVE TO move you.

I'm a fucking Pole, our medical care is really shit (no, for real shit, at least when you realise this is a developed country) and they provide it for you.

Because what else they are suppose to do? Keep you in a hospital that can't treat you? What for?

>>54823208
It's ironic when of you people call anyone else an ideologue. It's like when a North Korean talks about how free and grand their society is.

>>54823464
>You people
Who exactly?
Evil communists?
Naughly socialist?
Islamic terrorist?

Enlighten us! Because it's almost as if you were unironically retarded

>>54823493
There you go again. Does it upset you terribly when I tell you the truth?