The Emperor

Sitting in a state of presumably painful living death for 10,000 years will do funny things to you. He probably has a numb arse for one thing.

>>54803692
Well in the old fluff we've seen in the Emperor in 40k speak and he's been driven quite mad and literally rendered himself incapable of compassion to kill Horus.

However, BL has made it clear replace any traces of quality with their own incompetence and Guy Haley said that he modelled his Emperor off of ADB's in Master of Mankind. So it hasn't changed him at all in new fluff

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>>54803788
>Guy Haley said that he modelled his Emperor off of ADB's in Master of Mankind
And just when I thought we would be able to move past that travesty and bury it with only a few bumps. Fuck why must GW's and BL's writers be so bad. The only bright side of this is that with how easily they are able to just retcon replace Lore, maybe in the far future some else will be able to erase all this and replace it with something better.

>>54803788
If they ever move the plot along and have him get off the throne shit will be interesting at the very least.

>>54803912
You know it will. Since Priestley stopped writing it's been a long cycle of fanfiction fanficition overwriting fanfiction. The headcanon of one generation of fans replacing the headcanon of the last. Even a new generation will want to make their new ultimate take on the HH known.
I wouldn't count on it being better though.

>>54803912
I'll take the text to speech device emperor's characterization over that crap, a caustic man with noble intentions held back by his own raging ego, a jackass and terrible father who nontheless still loved his sons, even if he was bad at is. Who's mind has fallen prey to immaturity and eccentricity from his time on the throne

>>54803692
ADB has massive daddy issues, so the very idea of a loving and caring father, even a fictional one is anathema to him.
So he writes all his characters to have shit dads, and then he was allowed to write Master of Mankind.

>>54804066
What we're they thinking? The whole reason Horus even stood a chance was that emperor couldn't stand to hurt his favored son, he wasn't a good daddy but he was loving, even him destroying horus's soul is seen as an act of grim mercy by saving him from being used as a tool of chaos any longer

>>54804121
>The whole reason Horus even stood a chance was that emperor couldn't stand to hurt his favored son, he wasn't a good daddy but he was loving, even him destroying horus's soul is seen as an act of grim mercy by saving him from being used as a tool of chaos any longer
What makes you say that anon? They haven't written the final fight yet :^)

>>54804157
You mean they havent rewritten AKA ruined it yet

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>>54804066
Speaking of ADB... how true is this chart, /tg/

>>54804244
Exaggerated but only slightly

>>54804244
Seems legit. Second column on the left down is a surefire bingo for Talons. Plenty of other trufax but nothing in a line for bingo

>>54804353
Second line from the top. That's also Talons of Horus if Bolter and Chainsword wank it half as hard as ADB's die-hard fans here

>>54804032
Gags aside it's a legit characterization for him

>>54804032
That's because the TTS Emps was built by taking traits that the he had shown through his actions, and building a character around them would show both the positive and megative aspects of him, rather than just shoving a retarded Headcanon so that people can agree with them and their factional bias.

TTS Emps was made to be an actual character, while the canon Emps is just a plot device.

>>54804275
How only slightly?
>>54804353
Why does he have such daddy issues and think sadmarines, muh special snowflake OC, and fanfiction is ok?

>>54804388
Wtf is Bolter and Chainswords problem and why are they such rampaging chaosfags?
Also how in the FUCK does he give space marines waifushit? I haven't read the Night Lords trilogy because it sounded needlessly edgy but how in the fuck does an asexual super soldier giant get a waifu and why?

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>>54803692
>ADB's "Emperor is a big bad meanie" headcanon is being accepted and pushed by the other GW writers
>While simultaneously, Bobby G is being presented as this messianic savior whose going to reform the Imperium and is totally a goody two shoes unlike his dad.

We're in for a whole new wave of Ultra-wank aren't we?

>>54804491
It helps what we know as the final battle make more sense. Plus I always enjoyed the idea that the Emperor sucked at showing love directly so he showed it indirectly. The room's he tailored specifically for the Primarchs should have been more of a, "I do love you and I want us to be a family. I want you near me so that I can see you and I can be a part of your lives."

Instead those rooms were more like a tool shed to lock them up when he is done with them. It's annoying as piss. I don't like the direction of, "I'm so alien that I don't have any empathy or sympathy to show." It doesn't work as well as him being a bastard who still cares.

>>54804723
...

Fugg we are aren't we?

>>54804018
>>54804032

I think he's an AoS warlord, so it's not surprising that he still has that savage quality. This isn't a guy who watched and assisted humanity's long slow advance through civilization and for whom savagery was just an interregnum after tens of millennia of civilization. It's a guy born of ruin and war desperately trying to patch back together a rational utopian time he's only heard about second hand, and willing to cross almost any line to do it. That he could transcend his limitations even to the limited extent that he does speaks to his greatness, but ultimately he's a man who knows only war and blunt force. Malcador and Gulliman were each products of very different kinds of civilizations. They could rule an empire of man, but not forge one. So they remained loyal to the man who could, even when he showed more the arrogance of a technobarbarian than the statesmanship of a fifty thousand year old psychic philosopher, mystic, scientist, and noble working from quiet anonymity in the shadows, always for humanity's sake.

Honestly though at this point I'm detaching myself from gee dubs and their timeline. Yeah I hear the company has gotten better, but they kind of already lost me. This shit gets rewritten and retconned every few years anyway. Why bother staying current? I am glad that gw is cleaning up its act and making things better. It would be sad to see the whole thing fall apart.

>>54804922
Honestly Bobby G has been a rather compelling character for his fish out of water elements and his raw determination, granted seeing some of his plans downsides would help round him out

>>54804723
I'm honestly wondering how much of it is getting shaped by the editors, I remember a couple interviews with John french and he talks about how the gw editors are very much there for helping to mould ideas into the books not just editing the flow of the book/normal editor stuff

>>54804244
Should have included "the word coterie appears 3+ times in a chapter"

>>54803692
I think anything Lore wise that comes from GW or BL should be taken with a mountain of salt and reserve the right to be straight up ignored for being stupid and boring.

>>54805026
Ehh, I find him kind of Underwhelming to be honest. He's too much of a down-to-Earth, goody-too-shoes to me. I wish he had the bombastic arrogance and self-righteousness of his chapter, particularly Cato Sicarius. It'd make him more fun and round him out.

The Emperor is now a God, in a real sense. He isn't tied to a concept or a group of emotions like the 4 Chaos Freaks. He's independent, he doesn't need emotions to exist in first place. He can move his will at any direction he wants. Tzeentch can't stop plotting, Khorne can't stop killing and so forth and forth.
He projects his will and mind galaxy wide, exists both in Materium and Warp.
And that coldness callousness is exactly what makes him a real god. Something above all, distant, with a reach and views waaay above mortals. If anything GW should canonize his status as a God.
What i always wondered is how the theology of the imperial cult works. If he's supposed to be the One, True God, how it does explain the existance of aliens and Chaos? Fallen creations? Rebel spirits? Unruly and dangerous critters? If the Emperor is God, he created all, including the chaos gods and aliens. But guess GW wouldn't want to explore the religious side and issues too much to avoid RL controversies.

>>54809618
>I don't know anything about 40k but am still going to talk about it like I do: the post

>>54804658
>Why does he have such daddy issues and think sadmarines, muh special snowflake OC, and fanfiction is ok
Father was an alcoholic who beat him; not even memeing, he said this on his blog
>Wtf is Bolter and Chainswords problem and why are they such rampaging chaosfags?
Both Laurie and ADB post there, so they think that makes them the official 40k forum

>>54803692
It's actually amazing how much people ride this guy's dick. At some point in the last 30 years the whole "FOR THE EMPRAH! HERESY!" hoolabaloo stopped being taken as a symbol of a comically repressive and backwards empire and started being taken as actually pretty unironically cool. The Emperor and the Primarchs (and to a lesser extent all Marines) aren't being puffed up by Imperial propaganda, they're exactly as awesome and powerful as claimed. No satire, no exaggeration, no double readings. At some point 40k stopped being a dystopic satire about war and repression and started being heroic dark fantasy IN SPACE. Probably at the time GW realized Marines sell like hotcakes, and now the dudes who grew up with that are at the helm.

Protip, people: "the Emperor is inhumanly smart, so all his plans would've gone without a hitch if only everyone obeyed his every word to the letter" is not an argument. And I've seen that one more than a few times.

>>54804723
Real talk, does Guilliman have any flaws? He's a brilliant commander, an awesome fighter, legitimately well intentioned, noble, and capable. On the tabletop he's tougher than most tanks, killy as hell and gives ridiculous buffs while being severely undercosted. He literally wrote the book on being a Space Marine and his chapter is the most popular and celebrated in the galaxy. And now he's the main character of the main subfaction of the main faction of 40k.

>>54810538
That's why I want him to be full of himself, like Sicarius. It's a good way to give him a flaw with detracting from his skills. When he thinks he's better than he is, it wouldn't a be dig at how good he actually is, but at just how highly he thinks of himself, and how he would get himself in trouble because of it.

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>>54810538
Isn't he a closeted psyker who is afraid of using his power?

>>54803739
Seriously. That leg tingle after fighting with a stubborn shit for only thirty minutes is nigh unbearable, Ten THOUSAND years of that crap?

>>54810538
Several. He's not overly creative and he lacks lateral thinking skills. He will stick to tried and true methods until he's shown first hand they don't work. Alpharius gave him a run for his money until he started playing as dirty as him. Guilliman is a solid leader, tactiacian, and is incredibly smart but other people could do certain things better than he could. He is a jack of all trades but that doesn't mean he wasn't a master of them. There were just other people who had the edge on him.

>>54809807
>Father was an alcoholic who beat him; not even memeing, he said this on his blog

Link please?

>>54803692
Emperor has wildly weird characterisation. Some see him as purely callous, and write him as such. Some see him as still human, but flawed. Some see him as just autistic because of his age.

The problem is that what BL says doesn't entirely match with what Emps does, even within their own writings (perhaps partially derived from what they're attempting to write over still being the core of the story, so they're stuck halfway in "expand" and halfway in "rewrite"). His sons are tools, yet on multiple occasions he doesn't treat them as such at all even though if he did, then he should NOT have acted like they weren't (unless he's an idiot).

It is, put simply, a mess. Black Library is in large part responsible for it, and they really shouldn't have let people with severe daddy issues write what they wanted, but there's blame enough to go around in the long run.

But hey, he still supposedly sheds tears, and Guilliman admits in Dark Imperium that Emps is/was right anyway.

>>54804723
Guilliman flat out is acting more and more like the Black Library Emperor. Doesn't like individuals, treats people and organisations as tools, etc.

>>54810762
All the Primarchs are innately psychic, most of them just didn't bother or want to learn like Magnus (who was admittedly made for it).

>>54813571
>yet on multiple occasions he doesn't treat them as such at all even though if he did, then he should NOT have acted like they weren't (unless he's an idiot).

Bloody hell. Dark Imperium shows that he hid his disregard for the Primarchs by wearing a mask of fabricated humanity. You fell for his deception like a good little imperial-goy. I mean FUUUUUUCK the Perpetual to a man and a woman continuously tongue lashed the Emperor for being an evil prick but you people ignored them. Not that a Primarchs realised the truth, you flip out?

>he still supposedly sheds tears

For mankind and the ruination of a dream, not for men. Never for men.

>>54808297
I've been interpreting everything (especially the childish "EVERYTHING IS TRUE MY FANFIC IS 100% CANON AND YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT LALALALALA" bullshit from BLACKED Library's ""authors"") as the Imperium's propaganda machine kicking into overdrive as Abaddon takes Cadia and Leviathan descends on Terra

>>54809807
I wish his Farhee had beat him more. May then he wouldn't be around to ruin fluff today.

>>54809807
>Let someone with daddy issues write spehss daddy
>LOL THE EMPEROR IS A DICK LOL
Why did they do this?
Someone blz explain how/why he gets spehss waifus too, especially for Marines

>>54814508
ADB has no daddy issues.

IIRC, His biological dad was abusive towards his mum. However, his stepdad was a great guy who was a better dad than the bio-dad ever was. ADB intends to be a great father for his son having learned true dadship from his stepdad.

>>54814533
So literally taught his wife's son to be a chaosfags? What did he mean by this?
Also he's apparently still a hack and attacks Big E because lol I love le edgelords so fuck him and whatever residual issues he maintains

Also Bolter and Cucksword truly are retards of the highest caliber

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>>54814533

>>54814574
WTF the guy sounds like a real life Lorgar.

That explains a lot of the faggotry in the books.

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>>54813396
>He is a jack of all trades
>>54810538
Here is your answer. To a primarch, Guiliman is the jack of all trades. To anyone else he is a master of all trades simply because the primarchs operated on a different level to mere mortals

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>>54804244
>Somebody saved my meme.

Bless you Anon.

>>54813659
>Dark Imperium shows that he hid his disregard for the Primarchs by wearing a mask of fabricated humanity.
Correct, but if you had a brain you'd also have recognised the problem with it: there comes a point at which the Emperor's actions towards the Primarchs cannot rationally be explained, and trying just makes you look foolish, by "he was just pretending" because pretending is actively harming his goals. Not just slowing them down, not stalling them, actively hurting.

This results in one of two things: the Emperor is literally stupid. Or, Black Library is simply cocking up because of how they're going about writing the HH.

Now fuck off back to your hole. I think daddy's home and he's been drinking again.

>>54814533

>IIRC, His biological dad was abusive towards his mum. However, his stepdad was a great guy who was a better dad than the bio-dad ever was.

If this isn't textbook Emperor bio-dad and Chaos step-dad as it applies to his Chaoswank, then nothing is.

>>54810325
When fans of a setting grow up and become writers for the setting, the initial satire and characterization becomes bastardized through a process of pushing forward the "cool" elements of the setting that the first fans liked, and thus slowly transform it.

In the biggest meta-irony of it all, the 40k itself as a franchise went from the "Imperial Truth" era of tongue-in-cheek Rogue Trader and first editions to the present "Emperor worship" with 8th edition Primadonnas and Bobby B.

The Emperor in my mind has remained a constant despite HH books - if all writings and stories are meant to be taken as apocrypha, then the real character of the Emperor as a person will remain permanently shrouded, which is what gives him the divine mystique and prevents retarded descriptions like ADB.
Personally though, I like this >>54804032 as a description, albeit in a more serious tonality if you were to make a real canon out of it.

>>54813659
And that characterisation makes him no better than any madman dictator.

Its telling when someone is enamoured with the idea of humanism/humanity, but doesn't actually love any people.

That's where the rights of the individual get crushed because there's a pressing need for the group- 'but it was all for a good cause'

40k actually provided 'a good cause' worthy of all the bloodshed and oppression- literal daemons who will eat your soul and literal heretics and witches who enable them.

Old fluff had the Emperor ready to hand the galaxy back to mortal men after the crusade. Master of Mankind shows that this was never going to happen, because he is just like all the other dicks who claimed to be acting in the common good, but really had no love in their hearts.

The Emps was supposed to be one of us, an autist with a heart of gold, not a heartless prick.

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>>54803692
GW was recently taken over by an influx of Tumblrina problem-hair writers, and as a resident of the city their HQ they are based in, I can confirm we've had an influx of the fucking tumblr hair cancer WHICH IS NOW A FUCKING TREND OVER HERE. Splitting anger at the bottomless cultural decay my country and city has descend into aside, It's same to assume that this is their filthy work to project their failed womanhood and disgusting broken familial relationships upon the community.

We'll write it off as "Emps is soul-shitter shattered so hard his personality is a fluctuating mess, and there is a bit of truth in what he says, you don't get to have live as long as he has without finding yourself incapable of intimate relationships with anything, especially a bunch of incomplete man-children you made for a quick pussy-grab of the fucking universe as a whole which was made even more desperate by them getting scattered by the psychic constructs of uncaring amoral life and reflection of what is essentially everyone's inner demons made manifest that you did a devils deal with that you had no intention of honoring in the first place, and the entire point of this literally drunken strut across the cosmos was all for the sake of the fact that deep down, you couldn't fathom of bear to see everything for what it is and has become come to an end just because faggot Frogs fought skeletons and created dangerous space memes that want everyone dead because they exist, fuck that shit."

Emps might be the immortal paragon of mankind at it's apex- on a bio-level, he was still as socially retarded as any other human being, prone to flaw like any other, not acknowledging this was his downfall, next to the fact that he is literally the Greek Philosopher, Diogenes, fucking inventor of Cynicism, and when you realize he is none other than this batshit insane barrel dwelling angry hobo you realize his immortality was not lived out very happily.

He tried, and that's all he could do.

>>54814994
Step-dad raped, ate people snorted babies, infected people with various illnesses and ruined countless lives with intrigues for the lulz.
But he was a good dad, so it's fine!

>>54814984
>here comes a point at which the Emperor's actions towards the Primarchs cannot rationally be explained

He says this without providing examples. Has time to fling insults but cannot back up his position. At least when I insult someone I provide substance to back it up.

>>54815652
>And that characterisation makes him no better than any madman dictator.

Because he is.

>Old fluff had the Emperor ready to hand the galaxy back to mortal men after the crusade.

Did you take that from the Malcador audiobook or does this really exists in the old lore if so then source it.

As Malcador says the Emperor him hada debate. The Emperor believes thata monarch duty is to make himself obsolete. Hand over the rule when he sees his subjects were ready for it. Malcador believes that humanity will never be ready, it will never not need the Emperor. Of course this seems nice and all from the Emperor but do you know the high standards of the Emperor? We don't but we know that mankind has already resisted his control and evolved into a different direction. The Emperor would be the eternal tyrant of mankind because he will never view humanity as able equals to him ready to lead their own lives.

His past is telling. You must have read what he thought after he killed his uncle. "Mankind must be controlled". But we all know. Humanity refuses to be controlled. We are not animals. We are MEN and men desire to control our own destiny even if it leads us to our self destruction.

For example. the most heinous example, the Emperor tried to get rid of one of the most basic intellectual (some would say instinctual) needs of mankind. The revering and worship of things greater than our selves. It's testament to his failure as leader that not only his own son rebelled against this but untold millions in the Imperium worshipped him as a god regardless of his words. Heck, EVEN SOME OF THE SISTERS OF SILENCE who see him as the human he is were worshipping him behind his back.

>>54817324
Continued....

The Emperor does not understand mankind. His humanity was discarded a long time ago. He doesn't even truly love mankind. To love mankind you must love the individuals that make it up. Have considerations for them. But not the Emperor. The Emperor looks down on men. They are little better than animals in his eyes. They are just a herd to him, not equals, not comrades. That's why Pius refuses to call the Emperor a man because he isn't a man. He is a monster. He led humanity to hell on a road whose cemented and stubbed with blood and bones of countless trillion innocents. And you know what's the sick part is? IT WAS ALL FOR NOTHING. Chaos has already won. They cannot be denied. The dream that he forced many to sacrifice for was undone. All that remains is eternal war and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Speak what you want about Chaos but at least they understand the human condition (partly because THEY ARE THE HUMAN CONDITION). I wish Pius in the rewrite of the final fight would stab the Emperor rather than Horus with the true Anathame. He deserves it.

>>54809618

The Emperor was a superhuman, a messiah if you will, who later became the One True God of Mankind. Specifically after he wrecked Horus and "ascended" to the Golden Throne.

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>>54817442
>The Emperor looks down on men. They are little better than animals in his eyes. They are just a herd to him, not equals, not comrades.
How is it possible to be this wrong? Lel what a fgt.

>>54817511
Please refer to the inner monologue of Girlyman when the Priest character asked "if the Emperor loves us".

>>54817659
>Ohno a man entombed on an eternal torture devise was slightly men to me WAAAAH
So Gman is a bitch but we already knew that. Take you pity party somewhere else.
Also how you missed al the sub-text of BobbyG having to act like the empero because it was the right thing to do is beyond me.

>>54817732
You missed the part that he acknowledges the Emperor is a monstrous and supremely being unworthy of worship. The fact that he is doing similiar things to what the Emperor did torments him with doubt and guilt because Girlyman is at his core is a good man. The Emperor is and was a cunt.

Alkso you missed the part where he saw the true face of the Emperor striped from his human mask. The Emperor has no love in him. Not for any single man. Not even his own son.

>>54817766
>The fact that he is doing similiar things to what the Emperor did torments him with doubt and guilt because Girlyman is at his core is a good man.
No thats explains why Guilliman saw him that way you incompetent retard. He's shown to be viewed as you see him as seen in MoM by Land and others. Its Gmans own doubts that causes what he sees. Christ your retarded Carnac.

>>54817442
Gonna use this vision of the emprah for my next Chaos character.

>>54817766
You cannot have love without sacrifice and you cannot have sacrifice without foresight of what it means for loved ones.

What you speak of is platitudes and words, emotions passed between people and not love where actions mean more than words.
Emperor is a God in that his love for mankind is divine in its aspect - an immortal who did everything he could for a species that birthed him and ended committing his soul to a never-ending torture so that Mankind could live, salvaging what he could after Magnus's folly - that's the big joke of it all, that if not for Magnus, Heresy would not be such a setback, even with the devastation of Terra and death of half the Primarchs and legios as long as Webway and GT weren't damaged.

What Guilliman saw was a divine being which in its scope and power, plans and thoughts was beyond mortal love because mortal love is blind to the future and the sacrifice that only a divine being could bestow upon Mankind - willingness to sacrifice all to win all.

>>54817809
Nope, it's told that he saw the real him. He didn't see what the Emperor wanted him to see because the Emperor was beyond the point.

Ans what bloody doubts, you moron? Girlyman remembers what the Emperor was. His voice. His shape. etc. If Girlyman mind was shaping things then he would have seen the Emperor in how he remembered him, not as a monstrous abomination.

You are trying too hard to headcanon the fluff but come off as a pathetic. How many text do you need to see to be conceived that the Emperor is careless monster? Seriously. It's pathological at this point.

>>54817865
convinced|*

>>54803692
I run a lot of Intrigue heavy campaigns and know a lot of history. Causes of civil wars can be summed up to a few things.

1. A succession crisis
2. Extreme polarization of society
3. A stronger outside power exploiting a standing governments inability to defend its self
4. High level of accepted personal ambition inside the culture, AND a high level of acceptance of violence in the name of personal ambition
5. The state was formed by coalition who's reason for being around left to soon
6. Powerful legitimate grievance against the state

Civil wars not caused by one of those reasons are rare and rarely go far. Causes 1,2,3, and 5 just do not make sense for the HH. For number 4 that would put undermine the outlook that those fought in the great crusade did in fact believe they were doing the right. Really 6 is the best way to go. This means for story the big E has to have caused a number of meaningful legitimate grievances, I.E be a bastard, monster, or incapable as a ruler.

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>>54817865
>You are trying too hard to headcanon the fluff but come off as a pathetic.
From the person who wrote this
>The Emperor looks down on men. They are little better than animals in his eyes. They are just a herd to him, not equals, not comrades.
Thats a compliment. My mistake was replying to you seriously when someone as ass-backwards as you deserves only derision and laughter.

>>54817908
You forgot that 6 happened because 4 was in place and was allowed to fester into anti-imperial attitude, coupled with insanity that was Chaos. For all intents and purposes, Horus was literally mad with power.

>>54817865
ADB You have to go back to Bolter and Cucksword and stay go

>>54817915
It's true doe. He....

1) Does not love men
2) Thinks they are to be controlled

Not doesn't see his own sons as equals. Look at how he greeted Girlyman when he saw him. You think that such a vile creature would see normal humans as anything but herd animals? just a second gonna post it.

ps I hope Laurie Goulding work continues and you are confronted with more retcons. You made this personal! You started this!

>‘To me, He was a father.’ A distant, uncaring, heartless, manipulative father, he thought. ‘And a lord. I have died for Him once, and would again. That does not give Him divinity.’

>Coldness. That was the defining sensation of his meeting with the Emperor. Infinite, terrible coldness.

>He had approached the meeting with dread, fearing what he would find. Would his father be dead? Would He be insane? Would they even be able to talk? When he had been admitted to the throne room and approached the Golden Throne, he had done so as he had approached his foster father Konor’s funeral, willing it all to be right, drowning in certain grief. Between the time of the Emperor’s ascension to the throne and Guilliman’s own death, the Emperor had spoken to no one. How could anything have persisted for ten thousand years, he had thought. There was the wizened corpse surrounded by banks of groaning machinery, His sword upon His knee. Sorrow suffused everything. The sacrifice required to keep the Emperor alive sickened the primarch. If He were alive. He appeared dead. Guilliman had expected nothing.

>But He spoke.

>With words of light and fire, the Emperor had conferred with His returned primarch, the last of His finest creations.

>A creation. Not a son.

>The living Emperor had been an artful being, as skilled at hiding His thoughts as He was at reading those of others. What remained of Him was powerful beyond comprehension, but it lacked the subtlety He had had whilst He walked among men. Speaking with the Emperor had been like conversing with a star. The Emperor’s words burned him.

>What hurt most deeply was what went unsaid.

>The Emperor greeted Guilliman not as a father receives a son, but as a craftsmen who rediscovers a favourite tool that he thought lost. He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who is passed a rasp.

>Guilliman had no illusions. He was not the man who brought the rasp; he was the rasp.

>>54817988
>While the Emperor had walked abroad, He had cloaked His manipulations in love. He had let His primarchs call Him father; He had let them call themselves His sons. He had rarely spoken those words Himself, Guilliman now realised, and when He had He had done so without sincerity. Buffeted by the full might of the Emperor’s will unclothed in flesh, a cloak had been ripped from Guilliman’s eyes.

>The Emperor had allowed them to love Him, and to believe He loved them in return. He had not. His primarchs were weapons, that was all.

>Though His power was immense, perhaps greater than it had been before He ascended, the Emperor’s humanity was all but gone. He could no longer mask His thoughts with a human face. The Emperor’s light was blinding, all encompassing, but finally– finally– Guilliman had seen it as a whole. The being he had thought of as a father could hide nothing from him.

>The Emperor did not love His sons. They were things. Guilliman, all his brothers, were nothing but a means to an end.

>>54817957
ADB pls stop sucking your bosses dick

>>54817988
>>54818008
>Shitty girlyman fanfiction that will be retconned in <10 years assuming 40k doesn't get the AoS treatment

>>54817862
Sounding a bit Nurglite here. Is the existence that the Emperor preserves worth protecting? He is only making mankind continue to suffer in a hopeless struggle that they can never win. He loves the idea of mankind but is blind to the suffering of the men that comprise it. That's selfishness cloaked as altruism. His self appointed purpose doesn't give him a the right to prolong suffering of mankind. He should let go . Let things take their natural course. That would be true love.

>>54818105
Don't be silly. I ain't ADB. I don't have a tenth of a tenth of his writing skill. If I had it, then I would be the one writing the novels and believe me I would be much worse to you than he ever was and will be.

And it would more like 30 years. You won't live to see it though. Too much Cheetos.

>>54809807
ADB posts here too, you know.

>>54818126
There is nothing selfish about giving Mankind a fighting chance, for all that he did so far was that. All the pain and grief is humanity's own, fighting with their own demons that turned from being merely metaphysical to beings of flesh and power but of humanity's making nonetheless.

Emperor's purpose, whether to shepherd Man or let them go once the time was right was and still is necessary, because no other power can shelter them from the Chaos in its current agitated form.
Letting go of the Imperium would mean a death spiral to the species, stretched over a course of thousands of years perhaps, but a world after world would be snuffed out and horrors of the Old Night would be back, but this time to never be fixed. Had the Emperor not built the Imperium, humanity would go extinct eventually, with little by little giving ground to the beasts that made up the cauldron that the Milky Way was.

>>54818149
>I don't have a tenth of his writing skill
t. ADB
Pls go back to where you came from

>>54803692
Well for starters Emps said he considered the Primarchs as tools instead of sons.

My theory is that when Emps created them, he put certain elements into them that would represent him (Magnus being a representation of his mastery of psychic powers, Angron representing his wrath, Vulkan being his idealistic side and Sanguinius his nobility).

Because he put those elements into the Primarchs, he became even less of a human being than he already was. Not to mention 10K years after the Horus Heresy and sitting on the Golden Throne took a terrifying toll on what was left of him after his fight with Horus.

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>>54818430
For the anon who asked. Here is the link and the tidbit where ADB talks about his abusive father.

https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/dear-fuchsia-part-iiib-dear-alexander/

>>54813659
>Dark Imperium shows that he hid his disregard for the Primarchs by wearing a mask of fabricated humanity. You fell for his deception like a good little imperial-goy
See, that'd be all good and fine if it wasn't for angron. After angron got snatched by the emperor from his little rebellion, he decided to install butchers nails on his legion. This caused them to commit horrible atrocities that disgusted the primarchs and the emperor, which says something because they're no strangers to planetary genocide. Now, perhaps we can explain that away with "oh, emps didn't stop him because he was till needed and wasn't causing that many problems"
But then the emperor tells angron publicly to stop using butchers nails. Angron doesn't stop, the atrocities continue. So in response, the emperor tells russ to go and teach angron a lesson. The SW and WE fight, but angron still doesn't stop, he keeps disregarding the emperor's commands.
So then, the emperor sends horus to go talk to angron. Now, horus was already corrupted and used this opportunity to corrupt angron, but that's not what's important. What's important is that while the emperor claims that the primarchs are nothing but tools, his treatment of angron is absolutely not how anyone would ever treat a mere tool. A tool that does what you don't want it to do, ruins other tools (his legion), refuses to do what you say when you say it and fights back when to try and fix it? Just one of those would be enough for any normal person to get rid of a tool, let alone all of them.
But instead, the uncaring emperor gives his majorly defective tool not one, but three chance to change, and never once gives and order for his execution, which is not something he's above doing, see the missing primarchs.
How the emperor treats angron completely and utterly goes against the depiction of an uncaring asshole who sees people as nothing but tools, and only makes sense from the perspective of someone who cares about his sons.

>>54818610
Actually, its established that Angron was dying. The nails were killing him. There was no point in executing it him. He was a problem that was going to solve itself.

>>54818610
Thank you, granted I'd have seen killing Angron as a mercy but again, nobody was claiming he was a good father, just a caring one, and bad at showing it at that.

I get why they are trying to make him the bad guy but it's not consistant with existing material and making him so uproots so many cornerstones of the history, it's a Gross oversimplification of his character by some one with no understanding of nuance, things to ADB are either good or bad and he has no room for basic Grey areas of flawed but not fundimentially evil human beings

>>54818691
Any moron could see that said problem was not solving itself fast enough, and causing irreparable damage to other assets, a callus emperor would end him there, a foolish but concerned one would be trying to keep every year he could even if it was a bad call

>>54818509
>I am allowed to use this platform of far reaching lore and arcana to project and therapize my own subjective experiences

Never change, ADB. Never change. Fucking faggots at BL let this get published though REEEEEEEE

>>54818509
>trust your uncle
>he writes emps as killing his uncle
God dammit

>>54818691
That's still retarded. If he's dying anyways and that solves all the problems, why take the effort and resources to try and make him stop? And the idea that a tool with all those faults is fine because "lol, it'll be gone soon anyways" is completely and utterly out of touch with how anyone thinks that it still makes no sense.
If he's going to die anyways, is causing all these problems, ignoring your orders, ruining your space marines by installing butcher's nails AND the emperor doesn't care about the primarchs and has already had two killed, then why not just kill angron then and there? Why let him cause all that harm in between now and when he dies

>>54818784
Look. What was getting harmed? Nothing. The World Eaters were conquering worlds despite the collateral damage. And the marines who already have a short shelf life due the the constant fighting would be affected much by the nails. A generation after Angron dies from nails, the geneseed of the old World Eaters will be transferred to new recruited that won't be nailed. And that' that.

Angron wasn't going to live past the completion of the Great Crusade. The HH and Lorgar turning him into a daemon prince saved his life. Without them Angron would have died and his primarch-less legion could be told to stop nailing.

Also it doesn't help that the Emperor seemed sadistic in the way he treated Angron.

>>54818837
Its almost like... Big E actually... Loves his sons and wants them around even with terminal illnesses or madnesses

Wtf I love the Emperor now

>>54818837
Because the new writers don't get it and don't do their reasearch

>>54818866
If he was that cold and callus he would have been much more obsessed with efficiency, the world eaters were not efficient, I mean fuck look what happened to Kharn, that is the dip in quality we saw, that Is not what I would call negligible

>>54818837
Here is a Tau saying for you.

"A broken sword can still cut". Told to Kais who was a fire Warrior suffering from daddy issues, anger issues, and a plethora of mental illnesses.

Angron was broken but he was of some use. The Emperor wanted to squeeze as much use of him before he expired. From what we know about the Lost Primarchs it seems they and their legions were erased,

The Emperor could have wanted the World Eaters around. That won't happen if he straight up murdered Angron.

>>54818915
> the world eaters were not efficient,

They were doing fine until they weren't. Then as you said Russ and Horus.

Killing Angron would have been the inefficient part. It would turn the World Eater legion. Better let him die and then fix the legion later.

If the Emperor cared about Angron then he woul have told him why, That why question is what tormented Angron to no end and forced him to betray the Emperor. He wanted the truth. Just that much. Nothing else beyond that.

>Why were you different?’ Lorgar asked. ‘Why did our father treat you as he did?’

>Angron shrugged away from the insipid kindness in his brother’s tone. ‘You kept that mule Kor Phaeron. Russ kept his kin-friends. The Lion kept Luther. Humans – brothers and foster fathers – saved and raised into Legion ranks. But not me. Not Angron, no. Did the Emperor teleport his gold-wrapped Custodians down to help me and my army? No. Did he free the War Hounds and order them to battle, to fight alongside me? No. Did he save my brothers and sisters the way he spared and honoured the Lion’s closest kin? The way he honoured Kor Phaeron? No, no, and no. No mercy for Angron. Angron the Oathbreaker. Angron the Betrayer.’

>The World Eater jumped from the boulder, looking down at the bones but still speaking to Lorgar. ‘Did he stay on my homeworld for weeks, as he did with you on Colchis, Vulkan on Nocturne, and Russ on Fenris? No. No contest of strength and will with the Emperor for Angron the Slave. No weeks of laughter and joy and healing the world’s wounds. Instead, he stole me from the life I’d lived and the death I’d earned. He made me break my oath to those who needed me.’

>Lorgar’s eyes were fierce now. ‘But why? Why did he let your army die? Why did he steal you in a teleportation flare, when he could have remained here for a time, as he did on so many other worlds? He had a Legion – your Legion – in orbit, Angron. A single order, and they would have bloodied their blades at your side, saving your rebel army and hailing you as their gene-sire. Instead, he collared them, as he collared you.’

>Angron drooled, thick and wet, down his chin. ‘I’ll never know why. He never answered me. But he’ll pay, as the high-riders paid. And when I stand before him on Terra, I will ask again. And then, Lorgar, our father will answer.’

>>54819056
>>54819016
>>54818954
>Chaosfag ADB posts daddy issues from fanfiction HH series like it proves shit
Well meme'd

>>54819129
Angron to the Emperor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSNeL0QYfqo

>>54804018
>writing it's been a long cycle of fanfiction fanficition overwriting fanfiction
Now if only we could get some non-Chaos/SM fanfiction in the mix. Shake things up a little.

>>54808297
>I think anything Lore wise that comes from GW or BL should be taken with a mountain of salt and reserve the right to be straight up ignored for being stupid and boring.
I'm pretty sure most people agree with that, except for a couple asshole chaosfags who throw a shitfit anytime someone mentions how nids or Orks are more dangerous to the Imperium than Chaos at any point in time, or that Chaos could ever fail.

>>54819191
>I'm pretty sure most people agree with that, except for a couple asshole chaosfags who throw a shitfit anytime someone mentions how nids or Orks are more dangerous to the Imperium than Chaos at any point in time, or that Chaos could ever fail.

Why do xenosfags like to pretend fluff doesn't exist?

Even in Tyranid and Ork novels we have text that says Chaos is far greater than both of them.

For example the Beast series where Vulkan told the Beast to his face that he is just merely a distraction to the true enemy. The Deveastion of Baal novel advertisement says that Chaos is the greater threat.

So even Ork and Nid source agree. So why resist?

>>54819249
>fluff
>Black Library "Novels"
Black Library is nothing more than a glorified, 40k specific, Fanfiction archive, and the Beast series was absolute trash. They act like Chaos is a big threat because those novels are written by the same resident Chaosfags who keep pushing it.

>>54819249
>Vulkan told the Beast to his face that he is just merely a distraction to the true enemy.
Vulkan.

The guy whose father was mortally wounded and "family" was ripped apart because of Chaos.

Not exactly the most unbiased source when it comes to judging who's a more dangerous foe here (especially considering the Beast killed Vulkan after that. He got better later.... probably).

Also
>using advertisements to back up your claim about Nids
There's reaching, and then there's the silliness you're doing now.

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>>54819056
At first I was neutral to the Emperor but when I read what he did to Angron oh boy I hate the guy's guts now. People say that Magnus did nothing wrong when in fact it was Angron. He continuously was dealt bad hand by fate. Even the freedom of death was denied to him by Lorgar. This made Lorgar no better than the Emperor.

Really tugs at the heartstrings.

>>54817908
But 3 is literally what happened you silly goose.

>>54819504
Get out with this edgelord shit. Angron was a broken puppet that unlike other primarchs was enslaved and modified beyond repair. He was a failure in everything but for the fact that Emperor wanted to get some mileage out of him.

>>54819477
>Not exactly the most unbiased source when it comes to judging who's a more dangerous foe here (especially considering the Beast killed Vulkan after that. He got better later.... probably).

He was right so were the Eldar in the same novel series that said the same thing.. The moment that Imperium got its shit together and took care of the incompetents, the Orks Waagh! was dealt with in short order. Chaos returned as the Black Crusades became a regular thing. It would be 10K years later before the successor of the Beast rises.

>There's reaching, and then there's the silliness you're doing now.

Not really, In the upcoming novel we will see Chaos devouring a whole Hive Fleet in one gulp. A good PoV of it.

He's acting like a old fluff necron.

>>54819571
Angron was a tormented woobie. It's not edgy to have sympathy for a man who was forced to suffer in this way. It's more edgier to agree with what the Emperor did to Angron.

>>54819571
Kind of hard to amount to much when people are trying to kill you before you can even walk.

>>54804723
I actually like the Ultramarines.

The fact that most marines' backgrounds were
>Medieval world Warriors.
>Deathworld savages.
>Shitholiest Hive gangers.
>Assorted edgy backgrounds
Makes the Ultramarines a breath of fresh air: people from civilized developed worlds who knew the brutal cost of Space Marine training and joined anyway.

>>54819573
>He was right so were the Eldar in the same novel series that said the same thing.
Yes, because the Eldar have no vested interest in getting people to focus on Chaos whatsoever.

Y'know, except for that whole 'She-Who-Thirsts' business, one of the Four Chaos Gods. Again, they're going to be biased.

As for the Beast Arises series itself, everyone knew the Orks were going to lose from the start because it took place in M32, 8000 years before the current setting, so claiming that 'oh, the Imperium easily took out the Beast's Waaagh!!! after getting it shit together' is a real laugh and a half. Especially since it took the Imperium the majority of the series (and losing a Primarch and the entire Imperial Fist chapter) before they were able to stop the Orks.

>>54819573
>n the upcoming novel we will see Chaos devouring a whole Hive Fleet in one gulp
Okay, now I'm curious. Which novel will that be, and exactly how do you know this will be the case?

>>54819739
Reminder that Fulgrim is the dark mirror of that and that the vanity of the ultramarines will be their undoing.

>>54819862
>Go to lexicanum.
>Got curious enough as to what happened to Fulgrim's early years in his adopted homeworld.
>He was a fucking CEO.
I didn't know this.

>>54819787
>Okay, now I'm curious. Which novel will that be, and exactly how do you know this will be the case?

Do you know what the Devastation of Baal is?

>and a half. Especially since it took the Imperium the majority of the series (and losing a Primarch and the entire Imperial Fist chapter) before they were able to stop the Orks.

We know the meta-result doesn't change how easy the Orks were beaten once the Imperium resolved their shit. The Orks weren't the ones that were screwed the Imperium. It was the politics of the Imperium that screwed the Imperium. The whole book showed that different factions in the Imperium sabotaged the war effort. If it wasn't the case, then the Orks would have been taken cared off sooner.

>Yes, because the Eldar have no vested interest in getting people to focus on Chaos whatsoever.

They have vested interest in seeing the Imperium alive as Eldrad pointed out at the end of the series. The Orks aren't capable of ending the Imperium but Chaos can if allowed to. The Eldar pointed out to the humans that Orks uprisings come and go. They always will lose and be driven off. The Eldar know this better than anyone since it was they tht defeated the Korks and handled the Orks that came after them. That's their lot. Again, what they said was confirmed true.

>>54819914
The emperor liked his shit so much he let him name his legion the emperor's children.

If sangy hadn't of been found first it would have been fulgrim being the exalted one. Which wouldn't be surprising considering how well the emperor's children and the sons of horus got on.

Fulgrim also made extensive use of human allies outside of the legion. I believe one of his primary commanders wasn't even a space marine.

You would be HONOURED to fight alongside such esteemed warrior.

>>54818610
Everything here is also applicable to Lorgar. Tells him not to worship him when they meet. Tells him to stop inciting worship of him when he does that. Horus tells Lorgar to stop. Magnus tells Lorgar to stop. Lorgar then goes to build space Vatican like that's going to change everybody's mind. Emperor comes with Malcador personally to tell him again to stop it. Lorgar still refuses. So if he will be an unruly child, Lorgar will be disciplined like a child. Especially after he starts punching Malcador in the face and has a tantrum.
The chances given to Lorgar, that the emperor still did nothing, patiently asked him to stop, stop, stop, then stop again. Lorgar was a shit tool, he was slowing the crusade down, he was fucking up the Imperial Truth, he threatened everything about what the emperor is trying to do. He should have been eradicated except after the whole incident the emperor still gives him another chance yet again. It was a bad decision to do it but that is not how you treat a defective tool, its a crap father but one who doesnt want to destroy his son for even that reason.
It means that the two missing primarchs were even worse than Lorgar too.

>>54820124
Lorgar was worshipped as a prophet and a saint before emps showed up. The problem is that his prophecies were usually correct.

If emps wasn't such a fuvking regard he'd of realised lorgar presented a safe use of the warp for foresight and scrying compared to what Magnus was doing.

Lorgar should have been front and centre of the imperial army with the word bearers alongside. Instead Emps caught the whiff of worship about him and shat the bed.

When Magnus was openly consorting with daemons. But that was ok because it was intellectual.

>>54819654
And you still kill a shitload as toddler.

Or maybe Khorne saved him...

>>54819654
Like half the primarchs were attacked at birth, angron just lost. I dare you to pretend that his planet was tougher than literal warp hell that Liok grew up in

>>54820416
>Lion
Fuck phone posting

>>54819504
Doubling down on the Butcher's Nails by implanting them in his entire Legion was beyond retarded though.

"A-bloo-bloo these implants ruined my life, also they are now mandatory for all my Legion"

>>54819938
>Do you know what the Devastation of Baal is?
>Checks Black Library website and sees that DoB won't be out till November
Could've sworn that was already out.

Either way, that wasn't "an entire Hive Fleet", it was the largest tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan. The rest of it's still stuck in the meatgrinder of the planet Octarius last I checked.

And
>Orks aren't capable of ending the Imperium but Chaos can if allowed to.
>The greenskins had a Attack moon parked over Terra for several books, and the only reason it didn't get the Ardamantua treatment right off the bat was because timeline requires it to exist.
I say again: everyone knew going in that the Orks were not going to win. The only reason they couldn't end the Imperium in that series was because it'd destroy the entire setting. You know that, and I know that, so claiming that Orks can't end the Imperium based on the statements of a notoriously manipulative Eldar is a load of squigshit in a storyline where the outcome was already decided (and we all knew that it was) is a bit disingenuous to me.

>>54820376
>>54820416
>>54820459

Say what you like. Angro is confirmed the only primarch willing to die alongside his men.

>>54820550
Yeah because the other primarchs would have won and saved their men instead

>>54820585
You mean other primarch would have been saved by plot armour.

Reminder that by the time Emps showed up for Angro his emotional state was one of absolute fatalism.

There is a definite comparison to be made here between mortarion and angron.

>>54820585
>Yeah because the other primarchs would have won and saved their men instead
As a xenosfag I still say Emps could've avoid this whole mess with Angron if he'd actually HELPED his son deal with the fuckers on his planet instead of just popping in, grabbing ol' Nails-n'-Muh-Brain, and then noping! out of there like a coward.

>>54820667
Precisely. Emps took one look at angron's mad max crew and noped the fuck out. Same as he did with lorgar.

Funny how the two most disdained primarchs ended up that way because the Emps hated their homeworlds.

It's like when a rich parent finds out tarquin's been playing on the wrong side of the tracks. Despite the kids on that side of the tracks being the only friends he's ever known.

And then sitting tarquin down with the Arthurs and the Georges and expecting him to play nice.

>>54820667
If I'm not mistaken, part of the reason why the emperor didn't help Angron was because his followers were tainted by khorne already, still doesn't justify Lorgar at all but that's another issue

>>54820229
He told Magnus to stop consorting with daemons. Then Magnus crashed the Imperial Palace and fucked up everything that could possibly be fucked up at once.

>>54820734
That entire fucking world was tainted by khorne.

Emps should have used Angron and his crew to finish the job, then being him into the fold once the killing stopped. Talk about unresolved issues.

>>54820733
>two most disdained primarchs
Anon, I think the most disdained primarchs are by definition the ones that the emperor had to exterminate. But I acknowledge also that this is a bit nitpicky.

>>54820843
> told Magnus to stop.

And he razed lorgar's fucking shrine world. Using other space marines. Emps should have done it personally, like a father to a son.

>>54820653
The comparison being that they're opposites. Mortarion intended to win, but fell short. Angron was just giving his rulers a suicidal middle finger.

>>54820889
Emperor in charge of half-measures.

>>54820894
Death by brutal slaughter was angron's idea of winning. He had already fought his way out of the gladiator pits multiple times.

>>54820928
For >>54820896

To a very real extent angron never left that battlefield.

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>>54803692
You try being chained to a toilet for 10k years in agony and be cheerful when you see your son who never came to help when needed

>>54820550
He's also the one most willing to kill his own men.

>>54821431
Just what you need in the from darkness of the 40th millennium

>>54818430
Thats not a theory. Erebus says as much to Lorgar. Horus is his ambition, Russ his justice and a few others but those are the ony specific ones he saic that i recall

>>54803912
And this guy complains about other people's terrible writing.

Should I sue GW for hiring authors with daddy issues that slander my Emprah?

>>54823924
Just kill ADB instead. You'll go to jail, but it'll totally be worth it.

>>54823230
>trusting fucking erebus
Next your going to claim that karios fateweaver's statements to lorgar are 100% true because he promised he wasn't lying.

>>54803692
He was an idealist with a plan to solve everything, by any means necessary, which he believed couldn't fail. Then in what was seconds in proportion with his lifespan, the plan fucked up and he was stuck in one place for 10,000 years in constant pain while he is forced to listen and watch as everything he strived for is demolished.

Frankly its a miracle he still cares about the Imperium.

>>54824120
Let's all just hope his internal edginess is because he actually is just an IRL chaosfag and he an heroes in a hilarious and embarrassingly edgy manner. Presumably with a fuck you daddy and the Emperor involved somewhere.

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>>54803692
He is Malal now

>>54818149
Pls adb, stop with this, you are ruining everything, in the end no one will even like chaos, just look at the curbstomp that is konor. Your headcannon is garbage and will be retconned as soon as someone who actually wants to make a quality story steps up.

>>54818430
I like that idea. Maybe the two primarchs that were taken out and never spoken of were the parts of him that he didn't feel were worth keeping around, like actual love and whatever contempt he had for humanity.

>>54824158
Well its not like Erebus was wrong in this instance, also Kiros was allowed by all 4 chaos gods to speak the truth when he spoke to Lorgar so...

>>54804987
>desperately trying to patch back together a rational utopian time he's only heard about second hand
You realize the Emperor is Immortal and was born in Anatolia before Jesus, right?

He's literally as old as humanity

>>54829199
>Kiros was allowed by all 4 chaos gods to speak the truth when he spoke to Lorgar

Yeah guys, the liar who always lies said he's totally allowed to tell the truth this one time and is totally telling the truth, the truth told to him by 4 inter-dimensional hell beings who want your worship and souls.

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>>54829245
>He's literally as old as humanity

he's 50,000 years old at the time of 42k AD, humanity started popping up circa 200,000 BC you retard

>>54803692
Considering he's pretty directly lifted from God-Emperor of dune, he's a singularly gifted human who's taken the last handful of millennia to teach humanity The Lesson.

>>54829682
Not that anon, but I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he means human civilization rather than Homo Sapiens.

>>54818954
>Tau have a saying
So, non-humans. Yes, very useful.
>A broken sword can still cut
Yeah, but a fucking jammed gun might take your fingers off.
Still, you make a good point.
The writers *think* that they're portraying the Emperor as being cold, callous, and intelligent; the reason he acts like a moron is because the writers themselves are morons.

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>>54820550
>only Primarch
>Meanwhile, on Istvaan V
Also, wasn't Sanguinius ready to sacrifice himself to the daemons on Signus Prime moments before Meros made the last-minute switch?

>>54817442
Chaos fags are the worst. Get out of here ADB