Paizo Games General /pgg/ (also /pfg/)

> reposting from old thread

Are Solarians the most confusing class? Took me several re-reads to notice revelations can be used out of combat (you just don't get attunement bonuses). A lot of the revelations don't make sense to use in combat, meaning you'll never see their attuned version (eg Astrologic Sense - sure let's cast Augury in the middle of combat to see an additional 30m into the future). Some revelations seem like traps - why get Gravity Boost at level 2, which upgrades at 6th level to Spider Climb, when you could skip that and get Defy Gravity = Fly at level 6?

What do you think of Solarians?

>>54707113
Tiny bonuses, awful stellar revelations, nothing at level 5.

>>54707113
Best class ever I'm gonna run a solarian everywhere

>>54707064
Honestly though, neat concept but poor execution. Solarians truly are the Starfinder equivalent of the monk. Starfinder unchained when?

Any full PDF leaks yet?

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>>54706449

Continuing this discussion.

How would you build a Magus Eldritch Archer/Siege Gunner?

>>54707127
Operators also ingested some Monk parts - debilitating attack, tri-/quad-attack, quick movement, healing, etc.

>>54707113
Defy Gravity requires you to land or fall, so Spider Climb is still pretty decent.

But yeah, on first reading Solarion just looks kinda... bad. Not trash tier like Envoy, but with a ton of powers that don't really do much.

>tfw thinking about an android who lets her girlfriend consensually hack her

l-lewd

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>>54707064
Because Paizo, which can't into science if their life depended on it, tried to give the class science-y fluff, but they ended up making a class that's both mechanically weak and has garbage fluff.

>>54707273
That reminds me of Rory's fister robot girl with backdoors programmed into her for bully abuse

>>54706652

You dont need to go gunslinger at all, spellslinger wizard archetype (while utter shit for a wizard) will get you proficiency, gunsmithing, and make your firearm(s) a/n arcane gun. Arcane gun lets you cast ranged touch, line, ray or cone through it. Giving you a few extra options when not using spellstrike.

Repostin' Starfinder Leaks Imgur Album before bed: https://imgur.com/a/Krs3S

>>54707297
You don't need to reprogram a robot girl to bully her, but it sure as hell opens many more doors.

>>54707328
>tfw command words to run lewd subroutines, like disabling her speech for a little while, or making all of her tactile sensors operate at higher capacities

https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/83277/the-fiends-and-intrigues-of-house-karvane (closes in a week)
https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/85043/bones-and-bed-shackles (closes in two weeks)
https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/85418/mint-rebels-double-treason (closes in two weeks)

What are your favourite and least favourite apps so far out of recruiting games, /pgg/?

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>>54707269
What's so bad about the envoy?

How does the envoy stack against the operative?

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I can't get over how bad ysoki are as an option, there's no point in ever choosing one as a race.

>>54707421
How are they bad?

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>>54707421
R.I.P. Cute rats, nobody will want to play one.

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Why are Daredevil and Thief operatives so ass?

Why, oh WHY do they not have the +4 to Trick Attack?

>>54707421
it doesn't help that the art is Liefeld levels of terrible,

>>54707113
>gets flat DR starting at second level
>solarions onslaught
Its not a great class, sure, and desperately needs something given to it at 5th level, but its solid enough and is better than Envoy.

>>54707421
Uh, if your DM only allows core races and you want something small to ride your robot?

>the theorycraft already begins but not compared to SF bestiary, but PF one
oh great you faggots did not learn anything

>>54707462
>gets flat DR starting at second level

Which you spend your fucking MOVE ACTIONS on.

And that means no full attacking for you, bub.

Solarian = ass.

>>54707447
Fucking Redwall mouse garbage replacing grungy skaven image they try to paint them as.

Plus the fucking hamster racial trait is dumb and useless. Especially in a vacuum.

>>54707527
And it lasts until you use your Revelation.

It takes a single move action to gain DR.

You are fucking illiterate if you think you have to spend a move action every turn to keep it up.

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>>54707548
>This benefit lasts for 1 round or until you leave graviton mode.

Solarians suck dick.

>>54707527
Full attacks mean 2 attacks unless you are Soldier
Losing them is not as big of a deal in SF

Mint Rebels GM here
apparently I fucked up and forgot to add the bit about save defences into houserules. It's now in, this should be the last change.

>>54707527
>>54707557
Read the whole text again, specifically the second paragraph under the "Stellar Revelation" ability. It last 1 round or until you leave the "stance" whichever is LONGER

>>54707557
>a revelation that says it lasts for 1 round or until you leave the associated mode lasts for whichever of these durations is longer.
Like I said, you are fucking illiterate if you think you have to spend a move action every turn to keep it up. Can't say I blame you, of course it looks bad when you can't read how it works.

>>54707409
From what's been leaked, Operative wins in 99% of situations.

Envoy just kinda stops at 8th level. There are no new class features, talents, or abilities after that point. The abilities they do get are all lackluster at best; you don't get anything even close to being as reliable as Bardic Performance, combined with the worst action economy I've seen from an SF class. They do get an ass load of skills (but not all the skills!), but no way to apply them in combat, outside of a few talents.The class feels honestly feels like an Investigator without Studied Combat or Extracts and with a gimped skill list. If your game is almost entirely social situations, I could see an Envoy being useful, but as-is? Fuck, I wouldn't want one in my party.

Comparatively, Operative has the same base stats, but better proficiencies, bonuses to Initiative, a built in way to apply their skill bonuses in combat against anything (the class requires you to make a skill check to get sneak attack, rather than needing flank), your sneak attack automatically debuffs or applies statuses, your abilities scale nicely giving a ton of options, and you get a flurry of blows look-alike to compensate for how wussy small arms are.

I can see very, very few types of campaigns where an Envoy is preferable to an Operative.

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Does... does the envoy not even have high-level talents like every other class?

Wow, holy shit, the envoy is balls.

>>54707557
You don't get knocked out of attunement for casting a revelation unless it's a zenith revelation.

You spend your move action, and you keep that DR for as long as you're still in gravity mode. The one round minimum would only come into play if you were at 3 attunement, used your move for the DR, and then immediately used a zenith revelation in the same round.

>>54707593
Envoy is the buffmancer, not a fighting class.
You're supposed to get clever attack and improved get 'em by level 6 to give your entire party +4 to hit while still attacking yourself.

>>54707591
>for whichever of these durations is longer.

Where does it say that?

>>54707601
The one round minimum also comes up any time you use a revelation outside of combat, because you can't attune out of combat.

>>54707602
>You're supposed to get clever attack and improved get 'em

But both of those take standard actions?

>>54707527
Full attacking as ANY class in SF is bad idea. The penalties are incredibly overpowering at -4 each attack for all of two attacks.

>>54707611
Ah, k, the stellar revelations rule.

Wait a minute, what the fuck, Graviton Attunement is just +Reflex? WHY?

What do you think about a vampire PC? What race/class works better for them?

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>>54707611
>>54707557
>>54707527
<----- Read

>>54707621
Which can be important if you are caught by a slow moving, high mass object in microgravity. Not being squishy for a few seconds can save your life.

>>54707644
>Wait a minute, what the fuck, Graviton Attunement is just +Reflex? WHY?
Neither of the modes are very good. The reflex bonus does help since you have a bad reflex save. The extra damage from the photon mode is super small also.

Watching all this talk about Solarian vs Envoy vs Operative and I just wanna make a Soldier.

>>54707668
At least Photon's damage is relevant and scales.

Can someone please post the classes again?

>>54707672
Soldier is pretty rad. It's what Fighter always should have been.

>>54707434
There are mechanically superior races then Ysoki. For one they only get 2HP but they have a racial trait called Cheek Pouches in which they store an item in their mouth and can transfer it to their hand. Not only is this useless in an environment where they can't open their mouth, like say fucking space, but it doesn't seem that superior to pulling something out of your pocket.

>>54707437
>>54707421
Why can't Paizo balance for shit?

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>>54707672
>Solarian vs Envoy vs Operative

Whoah there, don't insult operative.

It's a good class, unlike shitty solarian, and SUPER shitty envoy.

>>54707639
Using "two-weapon fighting" does reduce the penalty, so we're looking at -2 after that and a class penalty reduction.

There's actually a pretty decent chance that it'll be the strongest combat option in Starfinder because it won't be completely fucked by the inherent system design and won't require any feats to enter. Right now it's only a matter of math, which'll require minuet details to determine.

>>54707689
It's useful for fellatio, though.

>>54707602
I noticed... but it's that combo is literally all the Envoy has. I get the intent, but the execution is fucked beyond recognition. Envoy is shit as a buffmancer, especially when compared to the Bard, because nothing scales, it gains no new methods of assisting, and it's not even in the same ballpark in regards to utility.

>>54707639
What about Operative, who can make 4 attacks in a full-attack?

>>54707672
I hope you do! Soldier looks fucking fantastic.

>>54707710
SF operates on different math than PF
everything does not need to scale to be good

>>54707726
>everything does not need to scale to be good
Basically every RPG ever needs scaling for its abilities. Any ability that doesn't scale immediately becomes arse, for the most part.

>>54707675
Really? I'd take +3 to reflex over +4 damage at 18th level any day

>>54707677
The leaks start here
>>54693500

>>54707689
>Not only is this useless in an environment where they can't open their mouth, like say fucking space, but it doesn't seem that superior to pulling something out of your pocket.
First, It's a swift action to go between mouth and hand. Second, you're not always going to be in space. Also they get a +2 engineering, stealth, and survival, which combined with their +2 to dex/int make them really good operative and mechanics

>>54707726
Unless a CR 20 enemy has the same AC as a CR 6 enemy, then, uh, that argument is false.

>>54707677

Imgur album is here >>54707321

>>54707706
>mako mankanshoku sucking gamagori's dick.jpg

>>54707650
Dhampir Sorceror (Wildblooded - Sanguine)
Dhampir Wizard (Cruoromancer)
Dhampir.....

You get the idea. Go vampire vampire vampire vampire if possible in terms of stacking. In 3.x you used to be able to be a Half-Vampire Monstrous Vampire Vampire Lord Master Vampire with the Vampire bloodline. Try to recreate that.

>>54707744
Reflex is still dogshit, you know.

>>54707744
>Also they get a +2 engineering, stealth, and survival

Oh wow, a +2 bonus to THREE SKILLS!

Give me a fucking break, Anon.

>>54707736
>>54707748
The real reason is the lack of old full attack
You no longer need to beat monster AC by over 10 points reliably to hit all multiple attacks.
Mark Seifter talked about it. Monster AC scales in sync with raw BAB, because you no longer need to beat the monster AC + 10 to hit with all 3 attacks
It makes even small bonuses still valuable

>>54707771
To be fair, until we get the spell list, we don't know that.

Almost everything I've seen targets Ref or Fort.

>>54707771
We don't really know that desu, and we also don't know how potent blasting spells are. If SF!Fireball is powerful enough to shave off half or more of a high level creature's HP instantly, then Reflex is now useful.

>>54707780
I don't think Paizo is good enough at math to make the system scale that way in practice, but sure, let's accept your premise.

So from level 6 onward, the Envoy is going to spend every round using two abilities, and only two abilities?

Every single complaint I have seen about balance so far has been either someone not fully reading the ability, or someone saying that a starfinder ability would be bad in pathfinder. Like yeah, no shit. They use the same mechanics, but they are separate games for a reason.

>>54707796
You do not have to.
Every fight does not need the buffs, you can just shoot people on your own too.

>>54707806
We don't have a bestiary or published modules yet. There's no way of putting any of this shit to the test.

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You would think that an envoy and an operative would pair well with one another, but they do not, because while an envoy's best improvisation involves flat-footing enemies, that is what the operative can do for themselves.

Never mind that the envoy is an extremely watered-down bard/investigator hybrid, whereas the operative is an impressive skill monkey extraordinaire and straight-up killer.

>>54707820
While saddled with dinky weapons, and no class features or abilities to support that shooting.

>>54707806
Go compare Envoy and Operative. Do it.

The envoy is anemic as fuck.

>>54707839
We have First Contact for a bestiary you know.

>>54707744
Being able to drag items in and out of your inventory as a free action is nice, but it's still not exactly a feature I'd call "great". Being able to prepare items to be pulled out on a swift within major limitations might barely scratch "okay" if there ends up being items good enough to abuse this way. A bonus to three skills definitely won't be amazing in this system either, there're things we have to wait on seeing but even assuming the best of the three skills, and skills in general, it's still going to be less powerful than Skilled or what the Lashunta get.

If anything can salvage Ysoki at all, it's the Moxie racial trait. Odds are that it'll be too situational to take advantage of, largely being a list of defensive features, but there's a chance that the game meta won't end up DELETE and that tripping or "off-kilter" are significant enough to be of serious consideration, but I don't think odds are good.

+2 DEX/+2 INT isn't quite as good as one might think anyways. The ability score system is that you add your modifiers before buying with 10 points at 1-1.

With this in mind, your starting score on Ysoki with a relevant theme should look like 8/13/10/12/10/10. If you go full into your key scores we're getting 8/18/10/17/10/10.

Assuming you're working with something really counter-productive like a Kasatha, you're stuck with a score like 12/18/10/10/12/10 using the same rules, which is worse but potentially still workable. With other races less counter-productive and keeping in mind how ability scores progress now, racial stats are going matter less now than they ever have.

>>54707847
You have not even SEEN THE WEAPONS YET
AND YOU CANT UNDERSTAND THE IDEA OF BEING ABLE TO HIT WITH JUST 3/4 BAB ALONE

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Why does Get 'Em give a bonus to damage rolls only if you spend the Resolve Point?

Does that not make Get 'Em rather bad?

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Shit dude, I'm loving the look of the Soldier. Armor Storm with Bombardier or Arcane Assailant as its secondary is basically everything I want out of a soldier.

Need to figure out what theme to go for for the character, though.

How would an Envoy-Solarian gestalt compare to the other non-gestalt classes?

Which one should be more common: Wizards or Sorcerers?

>>54707865

>You have not even SEEN THE WEAPONS YET
I've seen the weapons Envoys can wield from the pregen and the bestiary.

>AND YOU CANT UNDERSTAND THE IDEA OF BEING ABLE TO HIT WITH JUST 3/4 BAB ALONE
Friendo, you seem awful confident in something you haven't seen. Pretty sure you're talking out your ass.

>>54707888
Wizards in Golarion but otherwise this does depend on the setting and how widespread magical education is. Sorcerers tend to operate on narrative numbers in every setting so you can probably ignore them and focus on the wizard count.

>>54707899
We have Mark Seifter's word

>>54707888
Wizards. Anyone can train to become a wizard. Not everyone will be good at it, but they can at least try. Not everyone can be born with a magical bloodline and innate magical power.

>>54707909
His word is worth less than StarToad's.

>>54707917
He and Logan fucking made the math to the game
So just shut up

>>54707888
Anyone with 10 Int or higher can stare at books all day long to learn to cast Prestidigitation, but Sorcerers need to be born with The Power.

>>54707888
can make an argument for either wizards with a trained data program downloaded into the brains of the youth or sorcerers with genetic engineering to have one bloodline always percent say draconic red with the best of the best becoming dragon disciples

>>54707919
Paizo cannot math to save their lives.
This has been proven time and again.
And if the math for SF was just as fucked as the PF math, do you think they'd tell anyone?

I'll believe this magical RPG system where scaling is irrelevant because everything fits together perfectly when I fucking see it.

>>54707919
>paizo
>math
>>>>>balance
Are you really doing this?

>>54707942
Well let's have this conversation at October so you can actually prove it

>>54707922

But, after a couple of generations, wouldn't sorcerers be pretty common? If you track down your family linege it's pretty likely that you will find that you are descendant of a powerful figure, scion of family, bastard, whatever. Go back enough and you will find that most people alive today are descendants from a small sample of people.

>>54707888
Sorcerers, you can have them popping up among primitive tribes whereas wizards need books and teachers and shit.

>>54707951
Let's.

In the meantime, I'll base my opinions off First Contact, the Paizocon response, and the other classes printed in the goddamn book, and say the Envoy is a dumpster fire.

>>54707980
You can't just claim your heritage, you're born with The Power and that's it. You could be the literal son of a Gold Dragon, and just weren't born with The Power and there's nothing you can do about it even if you're a Half-Dragon.

>>54707985
And another thing: getting someone to teach you magic should not be an easy task. Considering the power wizards wield and the fact that you're a potential rival down the road, a wizard isn't gonna just take in anyone as an apprentice.

>>54708014
You don't need apprenticeship you know.

Longsword or Bastard Sword?

I think I figured out where Envoy fits into everything. I think they are meant to be a base class you can build archetypes off of without losing access to actual class abilities, cause they don't have any to begin with. So if you want to take an archetype without losing class abilities, you splash the archetype into Envoy.

>>54708041
I think the Envoy is Paizo attempting to make a literal diplomat into a class.

>>54707992
on the other hand, a Half-dragon Bloodrager or warder or warlord would all be pretty fuckin' neato.

Is there any way or class capable to summon undead while wearing heavy armor?

>>54707772
>Give me a fucking break, Anon.

ditto crying about the loss of 2HP when racial HP only applies to first level...

>>54708132
There's no reason for them to have less anyway.

>>54708129
Aside from CLERICS? Or WIZARDS? It;'s not difficult to get heavy armor proficiency, anon.

>>54708132
Halflings are better than ysoki in so many ways.

>>54708201

How do you avoid the penalties as a wizard?

>>54708212
>Mithril
>Arcane Armor Training & Mastery
It doesn't reduce the Arcane Castign Failure to zero, but Still Spell will negate it entirely.

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>Was planning on making an envoy character
dang

>>54708321
Yeah you are such a loser
You would NEVER BE POPULAR on pfg if you did envoy

How much money should a character earn per quest?

>>54708353
Look at WBL table, then decide how many quests they're going to take.

man these starfinder classes suck
when is DSP releasing pow for space

>>54708469
The same time Arcanist (with Wizard spell progression) || Rainbow Servant + Initiate of the Sevenfold becomes a core class.

>>54708497
>Initiate of the Sevenfold
>not Incantatrix

What class or archetype makes the most ominous and evil of casters?

>>54708529
Cleric or Mesmerist probably

>>54708529
Any of them, really. It's all about how they're applied and presented.
Undead Lord Cleric, Necromancer Wizard, Enchanter Wizard, Mesmerist, 3.5e Eliciter and Dread Necromancers, and NE / CN Druids that are all about regressing civilization back into being savages could all work.

>>54708321

Ignore what people say, the class is still usable just fine. And can be quite useful by the looks of it.

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How can halflings compete?

Well, 30 minutes ago I was in the camp that the rat people were shit.

But it turns out that they are the only race that can use the Stealth drone as a mount, which is pretty rad.

>>54708944
>gnomes
>halflings

>>54708957
>legacy races
Sorry, I should have clarified. Only race THAT MATTERS that can do so.

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>>54708041

>>54708970
Are you implying nobody is going to be playing Elves?

>>54708999
Oh they will for sure. But nobody who respects themselves will be playing one.

>>54709017
Heck off. I respect myself and will play one.

I wonder how people who jumped to trash Envoy see the game.
It seemed like a normal face class.

>>54709160
Why not be an operative instead?

>>54709227
Combat talents as opposed to Envoy's social talents

>>54709273
>"social talents"

You mean the shitty bard talents

Never mind operative being a god of skills.

>>54709160

I'm not a huge fan of 'X is a non-combat class' and 'Y is a combat class'. I was rather hoping all the classes would be good at both.

>>54709294
Creates less class identity if classes have harder time distinguishing how they are unique to each other
Also social encounters are just as important as violent ones

>>54708944
Riding your Stealth drone would ruin the camouflage though.

>>54709318
I'd rather have the 50ft base speed at level 3.

>>54709286
Yeah Operative has good skills, but in different way
And you are underselling the envoy expertise

>>54709317
>Creates less class identity if classes have harder time distinguishing how they are unique to each other

I'd disagree with that. People can have an identity that's not tied to being only good in or out of combat. I'm more a fan of 'I can do X in combat and Y out of combat as both are strengths'. The engineer seems a bit closer to the design I like, though I'm going to need to see one in action before I work out how good they are at the whole combat thing.

And while, fluffwise, I'd agree that social encounters are important the rules really don't back that up like they should with very, very vestigial mechanics for such things.

>>54709405
Well you still have to have something you cannot do.

>>54709426

That wasn't really my point. Classes can have things they are not particularly good at, I'm talking more about their strengths being spread between combat and non-combat. Something the Envoy doesn't seem to really do.

My preference is that each class can contribute (In their own way) in significant ways in combat and non-combat.

>>54709444
4e is thattaway.

>>54709505

What? I don't think 4e is a sci-fi game. I don't think it's that unreasonable for a game with 90% of it's rules to be on combat to try to make all classes good at combat in some way.

>>54709505
>modern game design is not something to look into when making a new game
>every game has to be exactly like the shit that you already excreted and proved you can fuck up
>not having the optimism to look forward to the future with open eyes and hope for better things than before

What a fag.

>>54709534
>modern game design is not something to look into when making a new game
Modern game design is what gave us ME:A and FO4 so I don't know man.

>>54707910
>anyone can train to be a wizard
>assuming int 10+
This is only mechanically true.

>>54709541

And oldschool game design gave us ET: The Game.

>>54709541
It also gave us BOTW and AA2, so I'm willing to give it a shot.

>>54709160
They haven't even really seen the mechanics of the game, so their first issue is to say MUH HUEG NUMBARS and REEE MUH ACSHUN ECOMONIE. that's why they'reTshitting so hard on the Solarian too. They actually haven't much to go on yet or actually playtested anything..

For "everyone is equally good at combat" design point to work, you need to make enough non-combat niches to satisfy all classes.

And it gets hard when you run out of ideas after "social, tech and uuuh sneaky?"

>>54709573
And? Most combat niches boil down to DPS, Tank, and Mage. Healing sucks in d20 so that's usually post-combat or emergencies only, so the important parts of most characters are how much damage they can do, how much damage they can take, and whether or not they can just fuck everyone in a moment.

Passing around "Can talk to people, can open doors without shitting themselves, can hide in a box" to more classes would be a boon.

>>54706576
...who wrote this?

>Captcha: End of Road
Oh no

>>54709604
That slides you more and more into somekind of classless system.

>>54709628

Not really? Classes can have a defined identity for both in and out of combat capabilities.

>>54709628

Honestly, setting up the classes as purely your combat stuff and making themes your non-combat stuff would have been a really good idea.

>>54709640
But you just talked about evening skill levels across all classes

>>54709644

Yes but that doesn't mean that all classes do the same skills in the same ways.

>>54709649
Does that matter if the result is the same?
Skill check can only fail or succeed.

>>54709662

...what?

>>54709672
Are you thinking of fluff or crunch?
Like you can make different ways to get skill ranks, but in the end only thing that matters is what your skill modifier is and can you succeed or not.

>>54709683
Since certain classes only gain certain modifiers under certain circumstances, yes, it matters that different classes gain bonuses in different manners. The circumstances around the use of a skill and what bonuses can be applied significantly alter whether or not the check succeeds, and how the bonuses are gained can seriously matter because that determines if you get bonuses or not..

>>54709683

I'm thinking of crunch and I wasn't talking about different ways of getting skill ranks but about classes all being equally capable outside of combat (If not in the same skills) instead of stuff like 'Fighters get 2 skill ranks, Rogues get 8'

>>54709683
Not the person you are replying to, but you clearly don't understand what they are saying. They aren't saying make every class good at all the skills.

Lets say there are 12 skills, and 5 classes in a game. It is totally viable to have each of those classes be good at 4 or 5 skills, in a different combination for each class, and bad at the other skills, meanwhile in combat each class fills a different niche, or fills their niche in a different way. You don't have to sacrifice identity to make classes good both in and out of combat, and when 90% of the rules are based on combat, its shit design to have some classes just be strictly better in combat, or others to be dead weight in combat but you have to tote them around to be useful outside of it.

>>54707321
>500+ pages
But why?

>>54709727
Its a core rulebook, with the GM guide built in, and lore/setting stuff in the book instead of separate.

>>54709709

Yeah, generally with some wiggle room. So with that 12 skills, each class might have the ability to be good at 8 of them (And pick 5 within that 8) so that two people of the same class can be different there.

>>54709701
Conditional rules are pain in the ass to handle, because players rarely have any agency in trying to get the conditions they want.
>>54709707
Different to what the other guy is saying.
>>54709709
While that kind of system makes everyone able to equally weight in in all encounters, the idea of making everyone good at combat but still having niches is nice thought, but quite impossible to actually write into compelling rules. Because you have to remember, when everyone is special, nobody is.

>>54709787

>but quite impossible to actually write into compelling rules.

I seriously don't think that's right.

>>54709787
>Different to what the other guy is saying.

Which other guy?

>>54709812
And I believe you.
But I have yet to see someone do it.
>>54709816
Nevermind he said the same thing.

>>54709346
Wouldn't Limited AI prevent that? It can't take an action until you've taken yours, so all you'd get is movement after doing something.

>>54709787
>Because you have to remember, when everyone is special, nobody is.
Depends on how they're special. Every mutant is special, but they sure as fuck ain't similar to one another.

>>54709843
Problem with mutants is that someone gets to be Cyclops and someone gets to be ... The Blob

>>54709787
> when everyone is special, nobody is
Listen snowflake, I don't give a shit that you think your class should be better than everyone else and that the other classes are only there to be bad and make your class look better. The classes don't have to be fucking special, they can just do DIFFERENT FUCKING THINGS. Are you so fucking anti-social a player that you don't fucking understand how party dynamics work, and have to be the star of fucking everything?

>>54709843

I dunno, they all share the X-Gene's requirement for them to assume that 'Any government method of allowing police to handle criminal mutants' means oppression.

I am still bitter about them destroying the place developing handcuffs that negate mutant powers while worn. That is a serious fucking help to law enforcement and would likely result in less mutants being shot by police who don't believe they can bring them in.

There's something sweet about the thread being introduced to rules, classes and races we aren't familiar with. We can't just dismiss things out of hand!

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>look through old character sheets
>find first sorceress, shy girl that wore a red sequin dress
>distinctly remember describing her as voluptuous

fuck I was a thiccfag all along

>Captcha: Indigo Place

>>54709871
> The classes don't have to be fucking special, they can just do DIFFERENT FUCKING THINGS
Those two are the same thing.

>>54709823
The mount option lets you direct its movement. Mount rules. It moves on your initiative by you spending a move action, but still has a set amount of movement per round.

>>54709869
>not even knowing what makes the blob awesome
You probably think Heart was the worst of the rings in captain planet, don't you?

>>54709891
I think he's saying unique != special.

>>54709888
So you made a magical, introverted Jessica Rabbit? That's not bad and hell, that's not thicc. There's a difference between voluptuous and thicc.

>>54709902
I bet someone has written him as a baby eating rapist, but his powers are still being super fat

>>54709909
Rarely I see those two disconnected from each other.

>>54709936

Not sure about the rapist part but yeah, that was Ultimate Blob. He ate the Wasp among other things.

>>54709950
Not really tied to his powers.
Any hack comic writer can write some stupid power to suddenly beat Dr. Doom or others with some fraud plot method.

>>54709936
The blobs powers are gravity manipulation, invulnerability, and healing factor.

>>54709910
She was in a campaign that was, objectively, darker than PLD

What Pathfinder classes do well with a +9 stat spread at level one, eg.
14, 14, 14, 14, 12, 11
or
16, 14, 14, 14, 10, 10

>>54709947
There is a difference, though. Every snowflake is unique - that exact structure of a snowflake will never appear again. A one-time pad is generally generated using unique seeds, like the sounds at noon from a microphone hung in the middle of London; the sound of this specific copper shouting this specific thing over that specific bus horn and these specific background noises will never happen again, it's a unique sound. But none of those examples are actually special - that's why people mock 'special snowflakes', but agree that snowflakes are in fact unique.

>>5471000
You could make a reasonable Monk using those ability scores, or take one of the MAD full casters (Arcanist, Psychic, SHAMAN) for a spin if you don't wanna be messing with save DCs. The second would be better for a caster but the first would probably make a decent-to-okay-ish monk

>>54710000
So fat he can't be damaged and so fat he can't be moved.
In another words.

>>54709968
It's a symptom of threat inflation, sadly. Everyone wants to make the next Magneto.

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>>54710034

>>54710020
>London

Wouldn't that just be the typical calls to prayer?

>>54710020
So special as a measure of quality, not special as unique. Okay I can get that.

>>54710008
>>54710021
woops meant to reply to this one, not the dead post

>>54710050
No, that's Stockholm.

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Question to fellow anons.

I ran a lot of paizo stuff; modules , adventure paths and my group considers me a quite good GM and I work for it doing prep and making sure the game moves fast and smooth without losing charm.

During my recent Iron Gods run one player whom I ran a whole campaign with in 5E suddently starts doing wierd name shennanigans.

He makes an android gunslinger a names him HK-47. When I tell him to get more creative he flips out on me and orders me to shut the fuck up and leave it be, I was informed by him that he suffers from depression and anxiety and this time we played at his house so I let it slide.

Unfortunatly he died when tried to play the alpha male to a fellow player who ran a barbarian robot slayer with a nasty habit of rolling criticals when it counts.

He makes another character with minor alteration by the name of Rip Hunter with a picture of Rip Hunter from legends of tomorrow.

Am I being trolled for not running my own content?

>>54710008
16 12 14 10 10 16 would make a really good Paladin.

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>>54709563
Calling it now, even after we've seen the core rulebook in full, Envoy and Solarian will still be shit compared to Operative and Soldier.

>>54710002
How? I need details.

>>54710067
It sounds like he doesn't give a shit about your campaign. I'd highly suggest kicking him out or at least asking him if he actually wants to play, and offer him a chance to leave while still being in touch.

>>54710086
Based purely on DPR?

>>54710084
Interesting, I do like Paladins a lot. Is the charisma too low for a bard at 16?
>>54710021
So a monk it would be str/dex/con/wis as the main stats and then nothing in int/cha I assume?

Is there any class that uses 16 Con, 14 Int, 14 dex, 14 wis?

>>54710067
You are the GM and you are the alpha and omega of the game. While being a tyrant is not a good thing, being the one in charge is expected from you and if you feel the player is just trying to string you along for his own entertainment instead of wanting to play the story you are running confront them about it. If they refuse to bend or justify what they are doing, just kick them depression or no depression. You don't get a free pass for being a salty cunt just because you are wheelchair bound.

>>54710065
It really doesn't feel like a coincidence that Stockholm is the source of the term "Stockholm Syndrome," where you fall in love with your abuser.

>>54710135
Isn't that the way it always works?

>>54710160
Paladins don't need their Charisma higher than 16 at level 1, the returns are minimal at a steep point cost.

>>54710173
Exactly why people belittle the thinking.

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>>54710092
Think Fallout but darker post-apocalyptic wasteland, roughly 1930's America gone right to hell. Basically Fallout with psionics and magic manifesting right after the "Catastrophe". She was a spoiled rich kid, the daughter of the mayor of a town, always given preferential treatment, who got tired after exhausting all the entertainment of the town. She tried being a guard for a week but it didn't turn out well, so she went with her best friend (a buff punchgirl) on a caravan to find other towns, where her talent singing and being sexy would carry her to stardom. Unfortunately, they were ambushed by hillbilly cannibals, her friends were brutalized and sodomized and eaten alive, and she saw that, went a little crazy in the head, started hearing voices which were really the antagonist, the ACTUAL ghost of her dead best friend, and about four other folks, one a guide, one a trickster, one a mother, one a fighter in her head. Then she was rescued by the actual party, became a shrinking violet and clung to the big, handsome gunman that originally saved her. That campaign ended after some kind of terrible Wanamingo thing assaulted the manor due to one player derailing things HARD and the GM canceling

Pic-related, is how I imagined she'd look like, because we all know how Jessica Rabbit looks

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>>54710135
Based purely on the operative being better at skill-ing and fighting than the envoy?

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Good morning, pfg! I drew you some Vesk.

>>54709017
Lissen here, boy. I reckon this general ain't big enough fer the two of us

>>54710301

"Hey guys, check it out. It's one of those humans."
"Weird, I heard they eat vegetables."
"Who the fuck eats a plant?"

>>54710224
>1930s Fallout

I never knew how much I wanted this until you said it. She sounds like a pretty solid character, at least backstory-wise, I don't see why you'd be embarrassed by her! Bards and magical women are typically stereotyped as top-heavy anyway, and the hourglass figure just enhances her mystique as a cabaret singer, which is what I assume you were going for.

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>>54709017
Elves are cool again, anon.

>>54710301
Hey, thanks.

>>54709017
What makes you think that? Is there something wrong with the race?

>>54710270
>skilling
>fighting
>only measure of worth
>nonmagical buffs and skill boosts for allies don't matter
Uh huh. I'd like to point out that antimagic and wild magic ABOUND in SF, and that all of the Operatives effects are self effecting only, and therefore useless in assisting other party members.

>>54710224
That sounds pretty great

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>>54710357
>helping anybody but yourself
How do you expect to win at Starfinder if you're so busy helping the competition?

So all this talk about weak classes, does this take into account the archetypes and themes that you will inevitably tack onto the class or are we assuming using the class as is?

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>>54710317
>>54710389

She was just a country bumpkin aspiring to BE a famous singer in a large settlement, but there's a stigma against psionics/magic in the setting AND she was mentally unstable because of the voices in her head. She'd never have gotten the job, but she DID have incredible psionic power, because... I think she was a DSP Wilder? something of the sort.

Still cute though, at some point I'll submit her to a game and see what people think of her, probably try and adapt her to Pathfinder or Starfinder I guess.

>>54710357
>therefore useless in assisting other party members.

Yeah, let's spend a move action to give friends a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls for 1 round! Against... only one enemy, unless I spend a Resolve Point.

>>54710002
>darker than PLD
This sounds like a challenge

>>54710395
Archetypes take away from class features.

Themes are really minor shit.

>>54710412
>Themes
>Minor

Themes are to non-combat as classes are to combat.

>>54710398
Please do and post your Discord

Literally the only thing that could save Envoy, is if the Skill Expertise feats work like the skill feats in Legend work, where each one gives you a combat ability that scales with your ranks in a skill. But we all know its just gonna be "YOU GET +2 WITH THAT SKILL! YAY!"

>>54710430
Good, so we're clear that the envoy is some serious dogshit.

Why couldn't they just make it a bard, for fuck's sake? I mean, the operative is a rogue+++.

>>54710430

I really wish the themes hadn't had the stat bonuses, so it was less 'X lines up really well with Y class that needs the stat'. Just leaving them as abilities would have been better. Especially since stats are not evenly spread out there.

>>54710402
Considerinmg that the numbers are lower overall in this game, and again, that there is not always reliable effects, a +5% chance rto hit is important. Especiaklly when it makes the difference between your operative gettign that shot in or not. But then again, you sound like one of those "all classes are self sufficient or they are shit" morons who can't into teamwork. Bet the only classes you played were full spellcasters.

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>>54710452
But envoys don't get Skill Focus for free.

OPERATIVES do.

Envoys on suicide watch.

>>54710469
The bard did party support way better than the envoy ever will.

>>54710469
>a +5% chance rto hit is important

Are you high?

Even in, like, 4e, that'd be pathetic for a power. A feat, maybe, a power that you use actions on, no.

>>54710437
Rory! Down boy! Don't make me get the spray bottle!

>>54710486
>>54710497

Oh, so you've read the whole book already?

>>54710561
We have First Encounter and the pregens. We have what we need to figure out that the envoy is dogshit.

>>54710497
Having actually played games, yes, +1 to hit can matter. Even in a numbers heavy game like PF.

Sure sign of a person who doesn't play and just does the math is not knowing that.

>>54710573
*First Contact

>>54710470
They get Investigator's inspiration tho.

>>54710573
>Paizo pregens
>not dogshit in and of themselves
Right, you just lost all credibility.

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What are some good uses for the (very weak) ysoki's cheek pouches?

They cannot be used to smuggle items, because ysoki are common and known to have cheek pouches. Every security inspection point will have people opening up ratfolk mouths.

They cannot be used in space.

The only good use for an ysoki's cheek pouches that I can think of is, at 1st-level with a BAB +0 class, drawing a weapon as a swift action rather than a move action. That is it.

What good are the cheek pouches for? Why ever play an ysoki and not a gnome or a halfling for a Small character? If darkvision is such a concern, pick it up via talent, or possibly equipment if such a thing is possible.

>>54710581

A +1 bonus to attack rolls can matter, yes, but action economy matters as well. Moreover, there is a non-negligible opportunity cost associated with acquiring such an ability in the first place.

>>54710589

Bear in mind that an operative receives free Skill Focuses, extra skill points above and beyond their regular skill points, and a scaling bonus to all skill rolls, thereby making the operative a truly impressive skill monkey and secondary combatant.

>>54710610
I guess Paizo thinks that potions are useful? I mean, taking out a potion and drinking it would then be a swift+move action so you could then move and attack.

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>>54710610

>The only good use for an ysoki's cheek pouches that I can think of is, at 1st-level with a BAB +0 class, drawing a weapon as a swift action rather than a move action. That is it.

Come to think of it, Starfinder may have removed the move action necessary for a BAB +0 character to draw a weapon, in which case, even *that* idea to make use of the ysoki cheek pouches would not work.

>>54710610
I'll probably homebrew some sort of Ysoki replacement since it seems to me that once again Paizo has managed to make shit-tier races.

>>54710437
M. Grim#4629, if interested

>>54710610
Operative having something is not away from Envoy

>>54710620
You wouldn't need to take it out, just bite down. i bet there is a feat just for thar putpose, swift action potion/nanite/chemical/drug use.

>>54710610
>>54710631
What do you have against rat people that you would post this animu as if it were an ysoki?

>>54710610
>What are some good uses for the (very weak) ysoki's cheek pouches?
Fellatio.

>>54710672
Would that make them useful? I mean I guess it'd be like, Quicken Spell except for martials so it might~?

>>54710610
Fill cheeks with grenades, remove one with a swift action, empty the rest onto a foe with a move action, activate the grenade you took out with a standard action, and re-roll a better race after you die in the blast.

>>54710678
Cheek action is the hallmark of a shitty blowjob.

>>54710676
They're 2hu fag. They can't stand the thought of something not being cute, anime, and feminine.

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What spells would you recommend for a neutram good cleric in a party with less than righteous individuals?

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>>54710850
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'll just be over here with my horrible bug people.

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Operator is cool and all, but they do not get the power to flip the bird at the hostile aliens to drive home the "fuck you".

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>>54694713
Who wants chargen rules?

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>>54710917

>>54710917
Dat ass on spess Ameiko though

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>>54710917
me!

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>>54710940

>>54710917
so do the iconics fly together?

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>>54710952

where's the mechanic exoskeletion page

>>54710917
Woah, Not!Ameiko has a really nice ass.

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>>54710963

Pathfinder newbie here. What is the best way to make Magic Missile specialist? Will Dazing Magic missile force a save per missile?

Should I take Conceal spell feat to prevent Shield spell?

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>>54710985

>>54710985

God fucking dammit. I was really, REALLY hoping they'd try to even out the stats for usability. Instead Dex still has a shit tonne of everything and charisma is barren.

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>>54711016

>>54710538
>It ain't me
>It ain't me
>I ain't no logposter son
>It ain't me
>It ain't me
>I ain't no Memedog one

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>>54711026

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>>54711038
I posted these before, but might as well repost them here.

>>54710985
>Charisma still useless fucking garbage
>even casters don't key off Charisma anymore
What the fuck are they thinking

>>54711049
Can we get feats after? Are there any good racial feats?

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>>54711049

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>>54710985

Is Charisma in the dumpster yet again?

>>54711026
>alignment still there
Fucking hell?

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>>54711064
Sure, I can probably get the feats done.

>>54711068

>>54711059

Would it have killed them to have done the 4e saves thing?

Str or Con: Fort
Dex or Int: Ref
Cha or Wis: Will

It wouldn't make them instantly even but it would have really fucking helped.

>>54711023


Dude, resolve is calculated based off of key ability score. Soldier and Envoy get resolve bsed off of strength and Charisma, which is pretty cool

>>54711038
>exp points to level up
For what purpose? Society play uses a different EXP system, and home games are usually just "gain a level when story appropriate"

Does ANYBODY use actual experience anymore?

>>54711070
I mean you [can't] dump stats anymore, but expect to see trillions of characters with 10 or 11 (from Icon) Charisma.

>>54711081
Can you please post the Command Undead spell specifically?

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>>54711081

>>54711081
Can you post the character sheet, too? Or a pdf for the character sheet?

>>54711085

Well, it kinda puts ranged soldiers in the doghouse.

>>54711092

I'm looking at 9 on a character. Android Icon because the icon skill isn't limited to Cha-based.

>>54711104
Soldiers get the choice of Strength OR Dexterity

>>54711089
Not everyone's home games are played by veterans

>>54711085
Where do you see this?

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>>54711093
Command Undead is really nothing, but here's the text:
Targets: one undead creature

This spell allows you a degree of control over an undead creature. If the target is intelligent, it perceives your words and actions favorably (treat its attitude as friendly). It will not attack you while the spell lasts. You can give the target suggestions, but you must succeed at an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An intelligent commanded undead never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful suggestions, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing.

An unintelligent undead creature gets no saving throw against this spell. When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” “Stand still,” and so on. Unintelligent undead won’t resist suicidal or obviously harmful orders.

Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the commanded undead (regardless of its Intelligence) breaks the spell. You command the undead creature by voice and it understands you, no matter what language you speak.

>>54711096

>>54711070
> implying neckbeard dev know what Charisma is

>>54711104
you can actually choose strength or dex according the soldier page. the book makes it sound like you actually have complete freedom of choice as to what your keystat is but im not sure.

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>>54711103

>>54711125
>Command Undead is really nothing, but here's the text:
What is the level and limits on CR and shit?

>>54711108

Ah, my bad. Missed that.

Though it doesn't really help my issue very much, as that's also something that applies to every stat rather than actually giving Charisma an innate purpose.

>>54711103
Those were already posted. >>54692106

>>54711113
Are you implying that newbies keep track of every single point of experience? Because if so, thats even more reason to officially switch to the PFS/SFS system of giving exp per adventure instead of per monster.

>>54711116
In the key ability score chart. Solarians and envoys get CHA as their key stat that determines their resolve points

>>54711136
2nd level spell, no limits apart from the ones listed although it does allow for both spell resistance and Will saves.

>>54711153
Per adventure only works for modules
Experience is still tied to encounter building which is how you do it when you try to make something from scratch

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Quick guys I need a good level 1 bard spell STAT. Help a brother out!

>>54711164
So that's probably how that guy controlled 241 CR 20 undead.
Create a bunch with Animate Dead, and control them all with Command Undead.
Or is there something that would prevent this?

>>54711125
So I'm guessing that Create Dead either scales with level, or it's the "grab a wraith and make it create trillions of wraiths" trick again. Or that guy was full of shit.

>>54711016
Doesn't being able to jump right back up when knocked out due to nonlethal mean any encounter kinda would default to lethal just to make sure people stay down?

>>54711175
The fact that the scenario how it could happen is extremely manufactured?

>>54711175
"Control" is a very loose term for what's basically Charm Undead. Also, it only targets a single undead per casting.

>>54711202
>Also, it only targets a single undead per casting.
Couldn't you blow all your spell slots on it, though?

>>54711190
They are hero points
I'm sure NPCs do not have them

I want to play the Ace Pilot for a party full of Icons!

>>54711208
Fuse spell slots, not spells

>>54711202
>>54711208
>>54711175
The way Command Undead works for a trillion undead commanded is to Command a Lich, Wraith, or some other being that has a passive ability to control undead.

>>54711175
I thought the Animate spell said it only brought back something max half your level in CR. Unless max level is now 40?

>>54711234
Yeah, but you could cast it once on every undead.

>>54711255
It would take you about 2.5 hours of continuous casting to charm each one individually.

Have fun doing that, I guess?

> Fort 13, Refl 9, Will 12 at 5th level
>+2 to all if cleric casts Prayer
Holy shit, didn't know this was going to be so good

>>54711255
Surely it runs out

>>54711313
Yeah, that's why the actual text is so important. We'd need to know duration and the limit of control, otherwise you can cast it as many times as you damn well please, and you'd just be chucking around undead with a CR of half your level in your bucket with the rest commanded forever.

>>54711038
The end of the ability score adjustment block ends with "if they go from Int 17 at level 3 to Int 18 at level 4" etc. etc. after previously stating that you only get those stat boosts at 5/10/15/20.

I thought Paizo had an editing staff.

>>54711173
Cure Light Wounds

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>>54711175
>>54711181
>>54711241
There is no Create Undead. There is, however, Control Undead.

>Mystic/Technomancer 6
>Targets: undead creatures with individual CRs no greater than
your level + 1 and a total CR no greater than twice your
level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
>Duration: 1 minute/level

This spell enables you to control undead creatures for a short period of time. You command them by voice and they understand you, no matter what language you speak. No matter what, the controlled undead do not attack you. At the end of the spell, the targets revert to their normal behavior. If any of the undead are under the control of a hostile creature, that controlling creature can attempt a Will saving throw (DC = the spell’s DC) to negate this spell’s effect if the creature failed its initial saving throw. Each undead under the control of another creature grants its controlling creature a separate saving throw to negate the effect for that undead.
Intelligent undead creatures remember that you controlled them, and they may seek revenge after the spell’s duration ends.

The important thing to note, though is that using the Fuse Spells ability costs Resolve Points: 1 + Class's ability score modifier (Intelligence for Technomancers). So, a single casting can control two CR 20 undead (The CR of such an encounter would be 22, but that's not what's being calculated here). The maximum possible number of castings is 24, using up almost every spell the Technomancer has available, for a maximum of 48 undead. Doing so would also require the Technomancer to have an Intelligence of 58.


>>54711125
Now for skills.

So I'm playing a skald in a party that has three other caster classes - an arcanist, an oracle, and a spellslinger/magus - and two melee classes - a barbarian and an unchained rogue - and I want to know how to make myself useful to the party. Since I don't have the universally useful buffs of the bard, and only one character really benefits from inspired rage, what should I focus on?

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>>54711441

>>54711395
Pretty embarrassing.

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>>54711441
Actually, maybe they only need an Int of 51. I forgot about Resolve Attunement.

>>54711452

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>>54711464

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>>54711472

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>>54711485
As for spells, I'll probably post them and equipment tomorrow.

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>>54711495

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>>54711509

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>>54711526

>>54711441
I don't get it, the Lashunta has one of "those" haircuts and looks totally alt-girl, but she's in a faithful long-distance relationship with a Cis male?

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Question from someone who knows a lot less pathfinder than you guys:
race=half giant, feats=exotic Bastersword Proficiency + Lighten Weapon, and class = Titan fighter.
Does this allow a lv 4 medium Titan fighter to wield a Gargantuan Bastard Sword with 2 hands?

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>>54711537

>>54711463
Also Icons are apparently the only theme who make their 1st level feature MORE difficult rather than less.

Icons are fucking morons.

>>54711538
she does not want the hair get into her antennas

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>>54711551
Feets

>>54711538
Maybe you would be less confused when you realize you really shouldn't try to put people in boxes by their fucking hair cut of all things.

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>>54711567

>>54711551

>Vidgamer

Apparently you can be D.Va as an Icon.

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>>54711581

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>>54711599