Is this fantasy armor or a legit knight armor from the Middle Ages?

Looks pretty legit to me

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>>54705560

Reminder.

How could it be a legit knight in armor? the didn't have cameras in the middle ages.

>>54705634
Why did they stop wearing helmets in 1675 but still wore plate armor?

>>54705630
1535 is my fav

>>54705655
My first guess is guns becoming more popular and I think that's when there was a shift towards pike formations and away from heavy cavalry. Someone more knowledgeable feel free to correct me.

>>54705560
Maybe not historical recreation legit, but at least realistic.

>>54705655
It's still a helmet, just not covering the face. Meanwhile the rest of the plate armor has become just a breastplate and tassets. More and more guns made total armor unfeasible, and newly professional armies made it too expensive.

>>54705968

I'm pretty sure Cuirassiers wore helmets too even if at that point forward they could only stop bullets at long distance or swords/bayonets.

>>54705655
>>54706039

Even the knights of old only covered their faces to stop arrows. Most people prefer visibility in close combat over protection.

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>>54705560
it has a bunch of elements from various styles that wouldn't be worn together, and visored barbutes aren't real

it's good enough for character art, but it's not histoical

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>>54706329
What about this armor? It's a replica armor and it looks odd. What are those huge things on the elbows and knees?

>>54706839
i forget the names for them but they are there to make it more difficult to strike at the gaps in hte armor.

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>>54706839
dear god, that is hideous

The huge things are the couter and poleyn respectively. That armor is shit, and should be melted down for scrap however. Looks like the kind of shit pumped out in India for idiots that think Game of Thrones has realistic armor.

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>>54706968
It's the best replica I've found. The other replicas are much, much worse.

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>>54707019
why must you hurt me this way anon?

Anyone looking to buy armor, please post a picture to an Arms&Armor thread first. It would save so many people's wallets and might lead to good smiths getting work

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>>54707050
I'm actually planning on buying one, but actual armor is incredibly expensive and cost thousands. This is the cheapest replica armor I've found at $450.

>>54707172
save your money so you don't get laughed at by anyone who knows what armor looks like

save up and get some real armor that you can wear when the zombies cause a civil war and the Rapture begins

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>>54705560
Depends on what part of the middle-ages we're talking about.

Middle-ages is 5th to 15th century and armor like that isn't around in the early middle-ages.

What we're looking at is possibly a suit of armor that probably came around somewhere between 1450 to 1350, or is possibly an assortment of older plate armor pieces at a later period of time, but as tends to be with these things, the old armor would still be around in much larger quantities, meaning that most knights wouldn't be wearing the new stuff, unless it was paid for by their liege.

>>54705655
Warfare started to turn to in favour of much larger conflicts, rather than in favour of extremely well equipped elite units as guns could very much negate the advantage of the horse and heavy armor when still being much cheaper.

This started to reflect the armor design as budget went down for individual troops, but cavalry was still needed, so the definition of heavy cavalry changed to just mean armored cavalry.

>>54707431
So it's renaissance era armor?

>>54707503
I would guess so, yes.
Guns would most certainly exist at the same timeframe as this form of armor would.

The existence of guns at the same time as what we would call plate armor shouldn't stop you from using plate armor in your low fantasy settings though.

Armor was really, really good. Even Gambeson is capable of stopping arrows and sword strikes.
People affording full plate would have to be fabulously rich as there really isn't any handheld weapon that could go through 2-3mm steel save for guns.

You would have to aim for areas not covered by the plate, which in the pinnacle of plate armor design would be all but impossible to do with a ranged weapon, meaning that you can have champion characters that require siege weapons to bring down.

I don't really see anything they didn't wear, looks about first half of the 15th century. The helmets a little odd. A bevor would have been more common and most great bascinets had shaped instead of flat visors. They left off the rondels to look cooler.

Not legit knight armour.

Legit man-at-arms armour. Probably a mercenary that got lucky and managed to loot some gothic plate on the battlefield. Probably from some poor sod who got his head warhammered in, so the sallet that came with the suit was unusable. So the mercenary kept on using his old barbute.

While (rich) knights used the newest-of-the-newest in military technology, mercenaries, men-at-arms and poor knights used outdated military technology, sometimes a mix of various armours because that was all they could pay for.
For example, the bucket helmet, the crusader helmet, the great helm was used up into the 1500s. By that time, the modern helmets were the sallet and barbute. But there were still hundreds of dirt-cheap antique second-hand/third-hand/fourth-hand great helms being sold and refitted by blacksmiths across Europe.
I will say that given the importance of protecting your head, most soldiers would have preferred a modern helmet and outdated body armour. But if you're a soldier with little income and you need some good protection and you can either pick between a brandnew skullcap or an old refitted great helm, you'll probably go for the great helm.

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Is this fantasy armor or a legit knight armor from the Middle Ages?

>>54708753
Looks more victorian to me.

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>not having insanely detailed parade armour made for royalty
Ridiculous

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>>54706968
I did a bit of research and found that it's actually based on something real, the Earl of Warwick effigy that has him wearing a similar armor. The pauldrons are wrong but the rest of the armor is similar.

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>>54711066

>>54705630
There were plate armor until 1700?

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>>54707172
> but actual armor is incredibly expensive and cost thousands.

and that's because its made by skilled artisans, hammering steel thousands of times to create complex compound curves that serve to actually fit the human body, instead of being made overnight by bending sheet metal into something a straw scarecrow couldnt fit in.

those cheapy crappy armours are virtually unwearable.

save your money, either get nothing, or save till you can afford a decent harness.

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>>54711066
>I did a bit of research and found that it's actually based on something real, the Earl of Warwick effigy that has him wearing a similar armor. The pauldrons are wrong but the rest of the armor is similar.

"similar"

yes, and this is a Ferrari:

>>54711129

By 1700 it was only something fancy that kings and generals weared but useless against modern muskets. It could only stop bullets from midern muskets at a distance but could block a sabre or a bayonet. Still, cuirassers existed for a longer time .

>>54706329
i'm fine with a bunch of mixed styles accounting for the mix of equipment that could happen after a bunch of wars and looting. same with minor age differences and style differences

>>54705560
it looks functional which is honestly the important part.

>>54711189

What is the name of her neck thing? The bevor like ring that doesn't follow the neck's shape

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Where do y'all buy these replicas that are decent and aren't sold by Walmart tier shitheads?

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>>54711189
They seem wearable enough. I think this is the most accurate looking of the cheap Indian armor replicas, a Maximilian gothic armor from the 1500s, and the indian dude wearing it seems to fit in it just fine.

>>54707209
>save your money so you don't get laughed at by anyone who knows what armor looks like

so no one.

>>54711129

Yes. It was worn by cavalrymen, reiters, lancers, etc.

>>54711384

I don't wanna start a flamewar, but why most late plate armors are either milanesse or german? Did other makers didn't exist?

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>>54711377
The best replicas I've found so far is here, at over $1000. I don't know if the site is legit though, never seen these specific armor sold anywhere else.

http://www.kultofathena.com/armor-full.asp

>>54711408
No one important at least.

Other people will still laugh at you for wearing armor at all though. But really, who fucking cares?

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>>54711419
Yes, the english also made very elaborate plate armor, especially for Henry VIII. There's a really great documentary about it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG8X1sF9kas

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>>54711129

>>54711129
There was plate armor until WW2.
It was just the chest piece and sometimes greaves and a few other assorted bits, instead of full harnesses, but there were guys wearing solid plates of armor up through WW1 and a little beyond.

Even now, there is one modern thing that is directly derived from plate armor. Space suits.

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>>54711548
It's also making a comeback with the development of new materials. Russians are working on a high tech armor right now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4653886/Russia-unveils-generation-Star-Wars-combat-uniform.html

>>54711548
Technically up to the Korean war. In the Korean war, the Allied forces used "brigandine" made out of aluminium and plastic plates.

>>54711571
Ruskies are about 20 years behind though.

>>54711571
That's not really a big deal. Russians fucking suck at military applications of material sciences. If you want to look at some serious new ideas on armour, look up the projects that the US military and the French military run.

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>>54706839
That's pretty fucking atrocious

>>54711601
Not because the Russians really suck at it. More that 99,9999999% of the Russian tax money gets rerouted to one of Putin's private bank accounts on the Cayman islands or some shit.

>>54711601
Careful, he's going to start droning on about how kalashnikovs made of folded titanium are superior in every way to [insert Western weapon here].

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>>54711419
Franco-Flemish, English and Iberian armor don't survive as much and don't have definitive striking features that show a contrast like Gothic or Milanese.

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>>54711422
If you can't afford a nice full suit then just buy gear for the poor fucking infantry.

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>>54711384
>a Maximilian gothic armor from the 1500s
The Maximilian (pic) and the Gothic are two different styles. Now there is a famous high gothic harness around that was made for Maximilian, but the harness you posted there is clearly not an attempt to replicate that one.

>>54711419
There were other manufacturing centres, the most well known being the Greewhich workshops, but by and large the European armour market was somewhat dominated by workshops in Milan, Augsburg, Innsbruck, Landshut and Nürnberg.

On top of this through much of the 15th century some regions had their own armour styles, and dominant amongst those were of course the Italian (ie Milanese) and German styles (only one in fashion at a time, but they switched what that was every now and then), meaning that they have some extra impact on how we talk about armour, and get mentioned more thanks to it.

To run off on a tangent a bit, the other armour styles are IIRC to have been the English (focused more on dismounted combat than anyone else) and Flemish ones. The Italians at least happily made armour of any style for export, the specifically Italian style simply being what they used themselves.

Before and after the 15th century armour styles tend to be somewhat pan-European.

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>>54711571
That gun disgusts me on a logistical and autistic level.

>>54705560
That helm is nonsense and the pauldron is fucked.

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>>54711733

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>>54711733
What about this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCA-Combat-Medieval-Knight-Gothic-Armor-Full-Suit-17th-Cth-6-Feet-W-Stand-ARM050-/263116456373?hash=item3d42f681b5:g:mmIAAOSwn8VZfvFT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Medieval-Knight-Suit-of-Gothic-Armor-W-Sword-Combat-Full-Body-Armour-Stand-/262971818030?hash=item3d3a57802e:g:Mg4AAOSwT-FZDupX

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>>54711773
That looks like a copy of Maximilian's high gothic harness, yes. Here's the original.

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>>54711816
It is.

>>54711797
Looks very unconformable, they didn't get the shaping right at all.

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>>54711797
You know in fantasy how they sometimes speak of mutants, beastmen, or such that has been created by the Evil buggerer as cruel, twisted parodies of life or similar? Or how in Tolkien's works the orcs may have been created by Melkor torturing elves into broken, shattered creatures?

Yeah.

The darker one also look like it's made out of plastic. Presumably just an artefact of the photography and maybe some coating, but adding insult to injury nevertheless.

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Brigandine is love, brigandine is life

>>54711571
That's the dumbest shit

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>>54711365
a mail collar or standard

it does follow the neck, it's just not tight to allow for movement

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>>54711885
Yeah I know, but it's cheap so you can't expect too much. Last one, what do you think of this? Is this supposed to be late 16th century armor for infantry or something else?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEDIEVAL-KNIGHT-BREASTPLATE-ARMOR-WITH-BERGONET-HELMET-HALLOWEEN-COSTUME-/122528024826?hash=item1c873d48fa:g:2v4AAOxyIj5SBzRL&autorefresh=true

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>>54712473
That's a cuirass for cavalry. It would be worn over a buff coat of thick leather, and is from the 17th century

looks a lot better than some of the other stuff you've posted

>>54712473
Helmet's probably meant to match some late 16th century stuff. Cuirass, uhm, God knows (and he's probably drinking heavily to forget). Napoleonic cuirassier maybe?

>>54711571
Gee Ivan, how come your president lets you have TWO barrels

>>54707172
>great helm on full plate

Delet this

>>54712933
'cause he's drunk

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>>54713006
I don't think it looks too bad. There's an example here in a documentary, he's wearing a great helm with chainmail to protect his neck.

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>>54713112
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmDER4qovS8&t=2m40s

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>>54713112
>>54713144
This is why Americans should stop making history documentaries.

Frankly the level of knowledge of history youtubers is typically higher than what History Channel managed to pass for knowledge.

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>>54713112
>>54713144
Oh dear. At least those harnesses are a step up from the ebay links here (by necessity I guess, as people had to wear them), or I'd probably start chugging Tamiya X-20A. As it is, sherry ought to suffice.

Anyone else found some of the mail to hang very oddly? Not quite like the woollen stuff, but in that direction. Plastic rings maybe?

>>54713191

It was fun watching Metatron debunk those TV documentary

>>54713436
Matt Easton, Ian LaSpina and Todd are the triumvirate.

Metatron, Lindybeige are entertaining and mostly correct.

Skallagrim is okay

The rest is shit.

>>54713525
>No shad

He is the only who talks a bit about architecture, also I think you're being too harsh on the rest.

>>54705560
yes to both
It's functional, and made up of peices athat existed at one point or another
doesn't look very well fitted though

>>54713653
I dislike shad

He comes over as quite arrogant and some things he says directly contract scholarly work on the subject.

If you're interested in the subject I highly recommend A History of the Early Medieval Siege, c.450-1200 and A History of the Late Medieval Siege, 1200-1500 by Peter Purton. It's almost 1200 pages on the subject with excellent footnotes and usage of primary sources and archaeology.

>>54713525
I wish Lindy would just dedicate his channel to autistic nitpicking of movies and tv shows.

>>54713740
Oh shit, Shaddy is wrong, thats akward, at least I got corrected.

>>54713863
Well generally he says some good things but the details are off significantly at times.

>>54711772
Its just a visored bascinet, its not even that weird.

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>>54713525

>No Schola Gladitoria

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>armour thread on /tg/

>>54713953
>>54713525

Who do you think Matt Easton is?

>>54711733
Didnt know german workshops were so dominant, all the memeing about the HRE being irrelevant seems to be bullshit.

>>54713971
>only I know what realism is

>>54713971
still way better than /k/

>>54713987

oh right

>>54713994
There's a bit to go between having a few manufacturing centres and the whole thing being geopolitically dominant.

But the Holy Roman Empire was certainly one of the big power factors in Europe at the time, despite the utter mess it was politically. It wasn't for nothing that the creation of Germany would make for an instant superpower, only add some IKEA Oxpanna-organisation.

>>54714096
I am german and all the memeing about the HRE just sucks. It was very important even though it was a politicsl clusterfuck.

I blame french and british mainstream history perspectives being popular.

>Charlemagne.

And about the superpower bit, WW 1 would also not have happened without the established powers feeling threatened by the rapid industrialisation of the middle powers.

It just created to much tension.

>>54714161
According to Goethe, no matter how 'politically fractured' the English (and French) considered it, you could use one passport and cross through lands owned by Knights, mayors, and Prince-Bishops.

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>>54714004
>I want to discuss armour with people who read about it on wikipedia and whose only experience with metalwork is a fake katana they ordered through the internet to record themselves cutting through milkjugs.

>>54711621
Honestly, I would be in no way surprised if we eventually find out that the growth of the financial markets was at least 60% drug/crime-money and illegally rerouted taxes.

>>54705560
The Helmet is a bit off but the rest of the armor is quite good, the sword is a bit small for a longsword. I mean maybe he is really tall and he got a longsword for a manlet but it is not an optimal sized longsword at all, way too short.

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Why no love for early medieval armors in this thread?

>>54714222
Goethe could, being a diplomat and all.

Everybody else could to some degree, given that they were willing to do it illegally and end up being broken on the wheel because people somewhere along the way needed a scapegoat for high taxes.

Frist time it really became safe was in the period shortly before WW1 when they actually agreed to allow free movement within Europe without passports or IDs.

>>54714222
Exactly, it was still one big cultural, mercantile and political shared room.

Not like any modern state of course but people knew each other and had contacts into each corner of the empire.

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>>54714010
Yeah I've tried making several armor threads there too yet never got as much info as here on /tg/.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all the advice you've given me. Ultimately though I am poor and have decided to just buy the cheap eBay armor since I can get one plus a bunch of different helms and chainmail for less than $1000. Been MSpaint'ng it for a few hours now and decided it can be made to look better with a different helm and pauldrons

>>54714422
>>54714407
True, but it was easier to travel inside the HRE than outside it.

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>>54714444
Why not go for proper infantry armor? Start small and expand from there?

>>54708714
Do you ever go to the store and buy a Brown Bess to hunt with because it's so cheap?

>>54714522
I'm dead set on plate armor, been a childhood fantasy of mine for a long time

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>>54714598
Well then get a breastplate and a helmet first!

Building it up can be way more satisfying than buying a crappy ebay set and regretting it a year down the road.

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>>54714625

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>>54714598
Pic is standard infantry armour for the War of the Roses. Munitions plate ftw.

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>>54714625
Yeah I'm also buying >>54712473 since it's pretty cheap and the helm can also be used with the eBay armor. Would look great with some cheap replica gauntlets like these too.

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>>54714598
>been a childhood fantasy of mine for a long time

Then take some more time and save up. That way you can truly have some plate armour, and not a poorly researched sheet metal cutout figure off it.

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>>54714735
A fool and his money...

Watch this guys video's; he might convince you otherwise

https://www.youtube.com/user/neosonic66

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>>54714735
no it wouldn't, they're completely different styles

armor lasts a long time, do it right and build a real set over time. You'll be happier with the end result than if you just get a bunch of unrelated armors and throw them together

>>54714742
do you know what these puffy shoulders are called/where they were popular

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>>54714742
Got $25,000 to spare? Maybe one day if I win the lottery, but since I don't plan on doing SCA tournaments and just want to LARP around at home and in parties I don't think spending too much for proper plate armor is worth it. But I'd buy it if I won the lottery.

http://historicenterprises.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=104_154&products_id=583

>>54714598
if you are so interestd on armour, why dont you try to learn about it before blowing your money on some shit ebay plate """""""""armour"""""""""
you are only going to waste you time and money, follow >>54714807 adivice and at least watch some of kyight errant videos, start with this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQDMtFiDaEA

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Does anyone know the name of the purple garment the dude in the middle is wearing?

>>54714344
That's /k/, not /tg/.

>>54711601

The soviet NK-33 and NK-44 rockets thrusters.

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>>54714598
Remember the thing about being an adult is that you can (within measure) throw money at such dumb shit childhood dreams.

>>54715088
I got patterns for everything except that Gilet

>>54715203
>You see when you have hot thing shooting out flames in the Soviet Union, you cool it by spraying fuel all over it.

This seems like a very Russian solution, yes.

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>>54714902
Too late. The indian dude was really desperate to sell his armor. $650 must be a lot in India.

Will watch the videos though thanks.

>>54715273
>$650 must be a lot in India.

Probably $350 more than he paid for materials, tools, workers and shipping.

>>54715224

Hmm, I was asking about names, but thanks anyway.

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>>54711129

>>54711571
>stormtrooper for literally no reason aside from McCarthyism

>>54705560
Either way it looks pretty damn functional. But the mail hanging out in triangles leads me to believe it's actually low key fantasy. The eye slit is also a little too wise. It definitely works though, as far as I can tell.

>>54713525
Todd who?

>>54713740
Who's good for architecture then?

>>54711129
Soldiers wear plate armor today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arms_Protective_Insert

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>>54716377
>Todd who?

Leo Todeschini, aka Tod

http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/
https://www.youtube.com/user/todsstuff1

>>54713932
Its visored barbute and was never a thing.

>>54711410
>>54711548
>>54711451
Why then are fantasy fans so concerned about firearms? Apparently, you could easily have both.

>>54716650
I think it mainly has to due with past fantasy works, not having firearms such as Tolkien, I think conan had no firearms (still reading the book). Wheel of time doesn't have any, redwall doesn't have any etc etc.

Warhammer makes it work though, I'm sure there are a few others.

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>>54716365
dagged chainmail was actually used purely for aesthetic reasons.

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>>54716650
I think people had the idea that once firearms arrived they immediately displaced armor and melee fighting.

Truth is that handguns were around since the late 14th century and they don't seem to have superseded crossbows until the first or second decade of the 16th century. By the middle to late 16th century armies were still predominantly made up out of pikemen with the heavy cavalry lancer still being around.

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>>54716760
dagged clothing for comparison

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>>54716650
>>54716703
That the works they've based their idea on what fantasy is not including them is probably important. I'd also suggest that there may be an issue with their relative, at least imagined, familiarity with firearms and their effects are also an issue. Swords and bows people may be fine with just letting them work as the game system tells us, but with firearms there's a perception of them being utterly devastating and a complete game changer, so regardless of what the actual performance of early guns may have been, there's a feeling that they are devastating simply by being guns, and that if they're not such in the rules something's wrong. That the effects of all other weapons may also be wrong isn't something the brain catches on to. A lack of familiarity with older gun may also reinforce this, as the baseline performance expected may be more along the lines of late 19th century weapons.

As for easily having both, the first use of cannons seems to be in the 1320's, and the first handheld firearms turn up in the thirties or forties, while the first proper full plate wouldn't be around until the end of the century.

Pic:illustration of a breech loading handgonne using replaceable chamber pieces (keep a few spare ones pre-loaded), mid 15th century, ie when gothic plate armour starts coming into fashion.

>>54715315
Shit you're right. I found a video on Youtube of one of the indian armors. I just hope the one I ordered isn't as bad as this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYr5mA0bAiw

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>>54716832

>>54716914
this is why it's better to take it slow and do it properly

>>54707050
I havent seen these arms and armor threads in a while, are they on /his/ or /k/ now?

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>>54716930
PS these are 17th century paintings

>>54713112
They stopped using those kinds of helmets waay before that kind of plate armor was in use. You get stuff like great bascinets being overtaken by sallets, then things like armets and burgenets.

That style of helmet is like two hundred years behind the armor being worn. It would be like a modern day infantry wearing one of those big dumb swiss guard hats into battle.

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>>54716958
nah, they pop up here probably twice a week and can last for a couple days. If you can't find one with the catalog search, just make one. It'll attract armor autists like flies to shit

Honestly, OP, if you want to buy armor you should start a few components at a time. Maybe begin with just a helmet, gambeson, and a hauberk, then work your way up.

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>>54716914
So the knights templar, disbanded in 1312, would have had full plate...

The single plate knee defence is, uhm, cute though. Yeah, let's go with cute.

>>54716650
You easily could, but there's the assumption that as soon as a person crafts a handgonne or a matchlock arquebus all the armor in the universe becomes useless, when firearms and armor were together for centuries before heavy armor became obsolete

>>54711377
>Tu es magnus homo
I'm laffin (yes I know it means "same", which means human in this context)

>>54714387
Anglos wheren't Vikingbo enough.

>>54716650
With no understanding of history, there is no understanding of technology.
So they don't even understand how many layers of industrialization you need to have 1880s revolvers.

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>>54718038
>Anglos wheren't Vikingbo enough.

Well, they do have their own stuff from just before that to draw upon.

>>54718038
>So they don't even understand how many layers of industrialization you need to have 1880s revolvers.
Interesting fact to blow people's mind is that fighting codexes about how to fight in full plate popped up at least a 100 years later in europe than the firearms.

That is, speaking of surviving sources.

>>54718038
The interesting thing about 1800s revolvers is that they're actually very simple devices. The leaf spring in the handle is the most complex part. Other than that, it's about 2 dozen simple steel parts, including grips and screws.

>>54705560
shit man you posted both on /his/ and on /tg/

mah nigga with good board taste

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>>54718378
Some get a bit more complex, like the one Collier patented in 1818. It's a double action flintlock, which automatically primes the pan from a small powder reservoir in the frizzen.

For some utterly and completely unfathomable reason, it doesn't appear to have been a commercial smash hit.

>>54717236
It doesn't mean "same". It just means "man".
"omoios" in Greek means "same" (hence "homosexual").
"homo" in Latin means "man" (hence "homo abilis").

>>54718378
>The interesting thing about 1800s revolvers is that they're actually very simple devices.
They're simple on paper, but the industrial processes required to make them (and their ammunition) to functional tolerances are not.

>>54711548
Space suits really aren't derived from armor. Except maybe finger joints.

>>54718746
They literally examined a historical plate harness when designing the original space suits.
When making a fully-enclosed rigid suit, it's a good idea to take notes from a pre-existing fully-enclosed rigid suit.

>>54714364
desu that's most financial markets everywhere. Plebs ain't buying cocaine senpai

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>>54716914
>Great Helm with full plate

A single video should not be allowed to rustle my jimmies this much.

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>>54719029
To sooth the wounds.

>>54718431
>KM

holy shit he lives I thought KM had left for better pastures

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>>54718378
No anon, they are not. You are clouded by the monster that is industrialization.
Leaf springs are not simple devices. Nor are the internal set of levers to get enough force, to penetrate/hammer the ammo.
Nor is the amount of work needed, to produce a casing that is sturdy enough to use the gun actively.
There is a lot of metalwork, quality testing of metal work, and precise engineering needed.

However, all of those things, pale in comparisons to what makes Guns into guns: A packet of gunpowder and metal, shaped and formed in such a manner, produced in such numbers, that fire of many shots is possible.
In complete uniform size too, almost without chance of dead ammo. Being able to store and use it, in almost any condition. Even in SPACE.
Half of what makes revolver men into revolver men, is that ability to pull out their guns, empthy it, then reload or grab another gun, and then do that several times.
The Quantity of Gunfire, is what makes it into Gunfire. Even if you are using 400J rounds, which won't penetrate several millimeters of steel, thats still what Gunmen used, en masse.
And the logistics needed to make these bullets, at mass, is completely bonkers.
Gun is simply not simple pieces of equipment.
If they where, you are limited to flintlocks, which is painful to use due limited ability to do repeated fire.

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>>54720987
If they where, you are limited to flintlocks, which is painful to use due limited ability to do repeated fire.

Well, there are flintlock revolvers (usually rifles or muskets rather than pistols, but that's a quick job with the hacksaw). Revolvers at large even go back to the end of the 16th century.

casing strength may not be all that critical. If a Colt Dragoon can make do with none whatsoever it shouldn't be impossible to just not build the cartridge variant weaker.

Bullets are pretty easy to cast in large quantities, bullet moulds have been around for a long time, and gunpowder was produced on an industrial scale by the 15th century or so.

I suspect the nasty part is getting the timing right. Then again, with a wheellock you need the wheel to fit the pan with such precision that it spins freely, but the gunpowder grains can't fall down between wheel and pan.

>>54711571
Literally every major nation is jumping on the super soldier space marine stormtrooper meme with armour, exoskeletons and crap tons of digital interface crap, that's almost always written off as pointless weight and unnecessary distraction when tested by grunts.

It's gonna be a while before we see any of this kind of stuff actually deployed.

>>54721131
>casing strength may not be all that critical
It is. If you want to fire 1000 rounds, it needs to be able to shot for 1000 rounds. Its even more important as Cartridges get stronger, because many parts are exposed to the blast of the bullet when using a hammer to fire it.
Even for the bullet, its critical, because strength of metal is not a given when forging.
And thats even true for anything connected to the hammer.

The rest of your post is jibberish. If you what you propose was true, industrial scale cartridges would have been produced earlier, instead of matchlocks.
Reality is that gunpowder can be produced at a scale, but not the way to seal them into cartridges, and then distribute them.
And handguns isn't even where the war potential is: Cannons are.
With higher yields, higher material needs, the need for a industrial scale production is present.
So without the scale of research, material quality, and testing, and manpower needed to assemble the parts, casings for artillery is impossible.

Seriously: Go read up on the history of artillery. Its basically everything you wanted to know about guns, except its vital to the battlefield this time.

>>54716650

Because a lot of fantasy fans are ignorant. They have a theme park image of the middle ages.

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>You'll never wear something this swag

jdimsa

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>>54718139
>asymmetrical shield ornaments

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What's the name of 16th century metal shields?

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>>54721631
It triggers the OCD of the enemy warrior, rendering them distacted and vulnerable.

>>54721704

Bucklers?

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>>54721740
They are a bit large.

>>54721704
rotella shield, target, targe, buckler

Take a pick since they were all used.

>>54716650
Because firearms only caught on like... 5 or 10 years before the end of the 10 century long medieval period.

>>54713525
>Lindybeige
>Mostly correct

Is it opposite day already?

>>54705630

I like how armor is minimal in the beginning and in the end

>>54705560

I learned recently that they actually painted their armor, this shiny stuff isn't accurate.

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Shame that they closed the servers and you cant play it anymore.

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Hey, I finally found a chinese seller. Kinda odd it's the indians who took over the market instead of the chinese, this guy made a fantasy-type armor for $1600.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wearable-Medieval-Crusader-Troy-Knight-Armor-In-Suit-Authentic-Full-Size-/192223741828?hash=item2cc16d8784:g:qDIAAOSwwvZZSdyn

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>>54724103
it's still shit mate, never buy from Asia unless it's chainmail as chainmail is hard to fuck up

>>54722785
ehh, not completely true.
Lots of armour were painted, heat treated to get a different color or covered in one way or another (and let's not get into etching and the likes). But then again there were a lot of armour that didn't had that and was all shiny and shit.
Basically two reasons:
- The painting, heat treating, covering methods might not be aviable for them at the time (keep in mind that we are still talking about hundreds of years armour wise)
- Fashion statement. Some would like his armour shiny rather than colorful. Obviously if the main fashion was colorful armour than you will most likely get that but there is always a few nutjobs here and there

>>54711746
>not liking CIWS-like concepts
You are uselessly resisting the future, you luddite.

>>54711330
Shot proofed plate was a thing, and noone expected to be hit by a gun at point blank. When you talk about guns we are talking about getting shot from 300+ metres, its a positioning war, not a goddam melee.

Just take a look at a random national or royal armory, like the british one, their collections go all the way into the late 18th century, while the real fuck-all armor still appears into the mid 18th, it ended up going into a price and 'usefullness' thing as melee stopped being that much of a thing on open ground, so you will only find 3.5mm plates being used by very high ranks who aren't supposed to get on active combat, while 'regular' heavy cavalry wouldn't wear more than a breast and back plate like the french cuirassiers.

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>>54711720
Where could I buy something like that? Or, even better, clothes worthy of a landsknecht?
Europoor preferably

>>54721540
That's a pretty skirt under all that armor.

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>>54726546

>>54726568
:3
knights can be cute apparently.

>>54726418
for landsknecht cloths you need to commission one from someone who knows his shit.
Look around for reenactors and such.
Sadly there are no shops that sells landsknecht cloths readily which are also worth the money and not just some shit tier garbage

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>>54726611
skirt like cloths were part of the men's gardrobe for a really long time.
Even the shirts would go under the knee or just above it most of the time

>54726546
>>54726568
>>54726754
Reminder that skirt flipping is a honourable samurai combat arts still widely practiced in modern japanese Anime.

>>54705560
Did somebody say Dark Souls?

>>54727159

Speaking of DS, could the elongated side-skirts of Ornstein be viable?

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>>54724103
If he's selling rubbish for $1600 when the Indians are selling it for $650 then I think can guess why the Indians have taken over.

For some advice in general: wait.

Go lurk over at http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/ for a a year or two. Look through http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13319&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Lurk over at MyArmoury in general.
Lurk the shit out of http://www.armsandarmourforum.com/forum/

Look at historical armour. Look at period artwork showing historical armour. Lots and lots and lots of it.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/albums
https://www.flickr.com/photos/thoog/collections/72157600297115550/
http://www.mediafire.com/file/dbei2i4668qccse/Austria_-_Hofjagd-_und_R%C3%BCstkammer.rar
http://www.mediafire.com/file/b3jyn8dv9399xav/Austria_-_Wien_Museum_Karlsplatz.rar
http://www.mediafire.com/file/gvf3u1go5ukl490/France_-_Mus%C3%A9e_de_l%27Arm%C3%A9e.rar
http://www.mediafire.com/file/x0jeq4y2pokh8tp/London_Museums_-_The_Tower_of_London.rar

Get some books. Oakeshott's "European Weapons and Armour", Hans Prunner's photobooks, Capwell's "Armour of the English Knight".

Go see it in person, scroll down a bit here for a helpful map: https://carlkop.home.xs4all.nl/armsandarmour/

Then, when you know armour, you can pick a competent but unremarkable armourer somewhere in east Europe who'll make a harness, costing far more than the rubbish on eBay, but it'll be actual, functional plate armour, and by then you should have been able to save up for it as well.

>>54726546
Poofy shorts in that case.

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>>54727280
We do see knee-length tassets at times, starting in the first half of the 16th century and quite common in the first half of the 17th, but in that case they are strapped to the leg and have completely replaced the cuisses (I'm not entirely certain they still qualify as tassets at this point, but I'll use that word for now). When we have cuisses, the tassets are there to cover the gap between cuirass and cuisses, having them extend further down than that isn't just a lot of extra, unnecessary weight, it's a lot of extra weight flopping about. And as per usual, reality like to place the tassets mostly in front, while fantasy loves to hang them on the sides where they leave the main harness-cuisses gap wide open. Ornstein's wrap around a bit at least, but still.

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>>54727649
I think tassets are the hanging thingies, the cuises don't really qualify. Also, is a tasset and cuisse combo a good thing? And why they didn't made frontal tassets like the samurai did?

I see, but please, tell me, how realistic is this dude's armor?

Pls don't conplain about the huge crossbow, another dude chops a tombstone with a battle axe and isn't even the toughest fella around

>>54724103
Dude no. If price is that much of an issue buy a cheaper brigandine. DON'T settle for cheap plate armor that will probably have way more problems than the cheapness offsetts. IT'S DUMB. Buy a stock brigandine and build from there.

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>>54727703
>I think tassets are the hanging thingies
Correct, here's an overview of things: http://www.georgehernandez.com/h/xMartialArts/Media/Armor/Anatomy_SuitOfArmor.jpg

>Also, is a tasset and cuisse combo a good thing?
You mean combining them into one part like on the armour I posted there? Well, it eliminates the gap at the hip and keeps things from flopping around, so it has that going for it at least. Shouldn't be a bad design at least.

>And why they didn't made frontal tassets like the samurai did?
I'd say tassets on actual armour was primarily frontal, offset slightly since they're needed a bit to the outer sides too, but in the middle the saddle covers you and they'd just get in the way there. On dedicated infantry armour like this one the tassets can be very much in front.

The armour you posted does a few "standard" fantasy armour things. Overlapping plates are a great distance apart, presumably to highlight them being separate while in reality it'd mean a horrific fit between everything (and the articulation being screwed over as a result). The tassets have ended up on the sides instead of in front where they should be, and are pretty huge, the bottommost plate on them on its own would be quite enough. They should also attach to the bottom fauld, not the belt. We have a large plate for the upper torso sitting on top of the gut armour, probably because that makes for a more powerful-seeming and athletic figure in our eyes, on real armour you're most likely going to find the lower plate sitting outside of the upper one instead. Large protruding bits on the pauldrons and elbow cops of questionable usefulness, and add a question mark regarding the fit and articulation of the pauldrons. Adding a gorget is recommended.

Overall not bad for fantasy armour I guess, but it is definitely not hard realism. At least it avoids the preposterously busy and over-designed variants of some.

>>54728254

I meant the tasset and cuisse overlapping but not combined, I like the floppy bit, but I guess its not as efficient.

If it gets in the way, how did Samurai sat on their their horses? did they use a different system?

I see, I guess that armor isn't good then.

i always tought full plate looked very cool but then i started looking it up and realized i only like realistical fantasy armor and find both full fantasy and full realistic armor ugly, is there a way to find cool looking kind of realistic armor or should i just off myself?

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>>54727649
>(I'm not entirely certain they still qualify as tassets at this point, but I'll use that word for now)
for the ones that goes until the knee I'm sure they are tassets. The ones that go under the knees might have a different name.
At least the german version

>They should also attach to the bottom fauld, not the belt
oh fuck, now I remembered all the shit tier tassets that people use in larps...

>>54727703
>And why they didn't made frontal tassets like the samurai did?

Because the Haidate is a seperate piece of armour worn underneath rather than bits fixed to or integrated into the faulds.

Also because Haidate didn't just work as tassets, they also doubled as a replacement for cuisse.

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>>54728431
>I meant the tasset and cuisse overlapping but not combined

Having an extensive amount of overlap, like on Ornstein's armour or >>54727703 probably isn't desirable. One plate should suffice to protect you, so doubling up is simply wasted weight. And having those long plates hanging loose can't be very comfortable either, even if they manage not to get in the way.

With samurai armour the lamellar nature of the kusazuri may allow them to collapse upwards (much like the faulds on a European armour) in order to get out of the way when necessary. And as for the European tassets not needing them quite in the middle on cavalry armour may be more of a reason then them getting in the way, though that may vary with the exact design.

>I see, I guess that armor isn't good then.

Well, it is what it is. Whether it's good or not depend son what you wanted it for.

>>54728551

Well I underestimated the weight of armor, I thought it was pretty light, but loose plates aren't worth the risk.

And about the armor, I thought it was good enough, but it seems it wasn't especially with the hanging side-tassets and inverted plackart-breastplate position

>>54728767
it's RELATIVELY light. full armour depending on what kind of armour it is nad on how big of a person is between 20-40 kg.

If you look at separate pieces with the exception helmet they usually aren't more than 2kg but under it.
Then again if you have a bigger kind of tasset that is dangling from your breastplate/fauld that's at least 2-4kg extra weight that you have no control over. it's VERY frustrating if you move or try to fight with it.
And weight is weight 2-4kg doesn't sound much but it will tire you out especially if you have 20kg more on you. The butterfly broke the spine of the horse as the phrase goes.

Also even if it's properly attached to the legs it's a piece that you have to "move". The breastplate, helmet and such just "sits" on you. The pieces on your arms and legs have to be moved when those limbs move, that's extra work on your body.

>>54728845

Frankly, it seems like a lot, but then again I never wore nor fought in armor, the heaviest thing I wore was a thick fur overcoat.

I imagine padding and mail would be a bitch, and I am not sure fighting in a cold place is better than a hot one.

>>54728985
padding not necessearily a thing for 16th century armours. It sometimes help but you doesn't really need it.
Probably the same for 17th century but they tend to use buff coats and similar stuff to protect the areas that isn't protected by plate and it also serves as padding too.

Mail is indeed a more tiring especially that it can be heavier than plate less protective ability on the same area.

But if I have to choose to fight in cold or hot then I would choose cold. Probably I would get some kind of sickness at the end of it but won't dehydrate that quickly. Otherwise it's both a shit condition that is manageable.

Also let's not forget that you DON'T have to wear a full armor. people realized this and the moment when the disadvantages overcome the advantages of armour pieces they quickly left those out. Firstly on the limbs for the sake of mobility and because of the fact that you have no vital organs in your limbs.

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>>54728767
>Well I underestimated the weight of armor, I thought it was pretty light

Good armour isn't punishingly heavy, but part of making it so is to get rid of any unnecessary bits, like extra long tassets when you already have your thighs covered by cuisses.

>>54728985
Going by my experiences with the protective gear for kendo and HEMA, a suit of armour would feel quite ehavy for the first few sparring bouts, but then quickly become largely a non-issue as you get used to it. There's a weight budget you need to spend wisely.

When actively fighting you'd probably want it somewhat cold, as you'll be generating a lot of heat yourself for the armour to trap. If you have to stay in your now very sweaty armour afterwards though that cold may quickly bring you plenty of misery.

>>54729122
a temperature between 10-20 celsius with light to medium wind is the perfect one in my experience. Or at least that's my personal preference for fighting in armour.
Without armour it can get a little closer to 20 celsius.

>>54729073
Oh, padding got obsolete? Thats akward, guess thats change my setting a little bit. I guess arming doublets made more sense than full mail underneat.

The choice of cold and hot is because I live in a cold place, so I want to know if wearing armor is better in which place.

>>54729122
I see, its a matter of getting used to it. btw is that you ? That horseman is handsome.

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>>54729160
>Without armour it can get a little closer to 20 celsius.
Yeah, that fits my training experiences. Works perfectly for long distance running too (for me, I may be a bit of a thermophile though), as long as the sun isn't too harsh.

>>54729240
Getting rid of the full mail hauberk underneath was the last step to create proper full plate, as opposed to transitional plate armour. For most of the 15th century the mail worn with plate armour was just small pieces at the gaps, so called voiders.

> btw is that you ? That horseman is handsome.
Nope. I own no armour and can't ride.

>>54729240
they never went totally obsolate they just changed and so did armours.
It was mostly the armours.
From 16th century (and some late 15th too) is made in such a way that they can distribute the force without a problem when someone hits you. especially on the torso, and to some extent on the limbs too. Though you still need padding on the head, that never really changes.
So you could use your standard civilian cloths under the armour without much problem. Some people did that, some put some kind of padding underneath it, depends on the armour and personal preferences. But simple leather jerkin as a padding became an option too.

And while we are on the topic of padding, let's not forget that the Michelin doll version of gambesons were never a padding that was used under the armours, those were stuff that went over the mail. Padding was always more tight fitting because if you make bulky padding then you have worse heat management (not the biggest problem) and also need a bigger armour which means extra weight (biggest problem)

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>>54728456
Look up renaissance full plate armor, this stuff looks like fantasy armor. Sometimes I wish guns were never invented so armor could still be used.

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>>54729362
>Padding was always more tight fitting because if you make bulky padding then you have worse heat management (not the biggest problem) and also need a bigger armour which means extra weight (biggest problem)

An historical, if pre-plate, illustration to help illustrate that. Look at the mail-clad limbs here, that mail isn't any wider than it has to be. (And the work her,e the Maciejowski bible illustrations, is supposedly quite accurate in everythign we can check the accuracy of.)

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>>54729457
moreso we have surviving examples of skeletons and mail that was in the possession of the deceased. The bulky gambesons literally cannot fit between the man and the mail.

Here is a proper reconstruction of how mail should look like on somebody.

And again: the bulky gambeson types should go OVER the mail, not under it. (and some would argue the thinner paddings that goes under the mail is called aketon but I'm not entirely sure if there is a consensus about that yet)

>>54711571
That looks nothing like a stormtrooper these normies need to fuck off

>>54729362
I see, thanks.
>>54729372
This looks amazing, almost like a ighting game rooster.
>>54729554
Wouldn't chaffing be an issue?

>>54729777
>Wouldn't chaffing be an issue?
... why would it be? you aren't naked under it.

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>>54729554
>moreso we have surviving examples of skeletons and mail that was in the possession of the deceased

I've been reading about the Battle of Visby recently, that stuff they found there is amazing. The chainmail they made looks a hell of a lot better than the crap on eBay.

>>54729796

Thats odd, I heard you needed somewhat thick clothing to prevent it, but anyclothing will do it?

>>54729877
well, technically any clothing will do if your only worries is chaffing. You need an Aketon or similar stuff if you want to battle, because while the chainmail stops a lot of things, to some extent even blunt traume it's really isn't THAT good with it.
So a thinner version of the stereotypical gambeson is underneath it.
THEN you put the stereotypical gambeson OVER it. And sometimes other clothing to show your heraldry or how big of a penis you have.

You can read more here
https://myarmoury.com/feature_spot_quilted.html

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>>54729877
You probably want some reasonably sturdy clothing underneath, if nothing else so the clothing itself won't be worn through in a hurry, but outright padding shouldn't be necessary.

>>54711129

Even better, curaissers were a thing in Napoleonic wars.

I think it went out of real use when railroads were becoming common.

>>54730010
>but outright padding shouldn't be necessary.
kind of true but important point is to use PERIOD clothing underneath. Which is two layers of linen and one layer of wool at the very least.

>>54724661
Also easy to tailor-fit in your garage.

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>>54730024
Napoleonic wars-syle cuirassiers were a thing until 1914, where they went out of use on account of being dead.

Horses would remain in some use for out of combat transport through WW2, so I don't see how railroads would have been all that instrumental here.

>>54729956
>>54730010

Once again, thanks.

>>54730113

Yeah, but I think they didn't use them if not against "pure" cavalry. (they DID use a ton of horses, especially east in ww1, but...)

I guess historians of the future will find funny that 1900/ending of the 1800s is the period without personal armour.

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I'm planning on doing a Knights Templar suit, did Templars wear gauntlets and other armor on the legs and arm, or just chainmail?

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>>54730605
Its going to be mostly mail, but the details change a lot from 1119 to 1312. So you're going to have to decide on which time period there, possibly down to the decade.

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>>54730605
they'd have chainmail mittens

>>54730605

Check the Osprey troves in Da Archive. You'll probably have more informations than you could use in the campaign.

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>>54730605
There was limited use of knee cops and the like by the time they were disbanded, but for the majority of their time and certainly the well known bits it was all maille all the time.

Of course, the style and coverage of maille changed over time so if you have a particular period in mind that would help.

>>54729554
No consensus yet unfortunately, both aketon and gambeson are period terms but both are used for under and over padding sometimes even in the same document. Today gambeson is used to describe everything but there is a growing trend to use aketon for the under padding and gambeson purely for over padding. That's a modern distinction meant to clearly and concisely describe things rather than reflect period usage.

>>54729877
>>54729956
>>54730056
It is worth pointing out that maille was used for hundreds of years without dedicated padding, it is nowhere near as vital as it is often made out to be although normal clothing being layered was probably quite helpful in providing a small amount of cushioning.

>>54714675
>went to the trouble of adding the wooden plate and bowl, spoon, knife and goblet
>chaplet also included

My God I'm very very much pleased with this picture, thank you.

>>54730767
>>54730871
Just right before they disbanded, what were they wearing?

>>54713932
If that's a bascinet then I'm the queen of France.

>>54731004

>queen

>not empress

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>>54730931
Assuming 1300-10AD

Maille hauberk to just above the knees with integral mittens; integral coif with a secret helm underneath.

Complete maille chausses including feet on the legs. Possibly gamboised cuisses over the top. Possibly knee cops that may be intergrated with the cuisses.

Greathelm, surcoat, thin aketon underneath, heater shield. Maybe an elbow cop for the very final years. If you really want to be wearing as much metal as you can, consider an armoured surcoat or discreet Coat of Plates to be worn underneath a regular surcoat.

And the usual questions; purpose, budget and desired level of accuracy?

>>54727550
Not the anon looking to buy armor but a drawfag who is trying to get better at understanding armor for concept art- thanks for all the links man, that's a wealth of data.

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>>54731174
Adding to this, the great helm would probably have been dropped on foot, and if you wan tot go for the poor knight of Christ image, then you can it entirely, along with the metal skull cap, and go for a kettle hat instead.

Obviously whatever helm is chosen should fit the time period here, so no late 14th century great helm for example.

>>54731567
>the great helm would probably have been dropped on foot
B-But the popular imagery of a guy in a great helm wading into melee on foot. Is the great helm's restriction of sight/hearing/breathing that bad compared to later fully encompassing helmets?

>>54732020
nobody really wanted to use closed helmets on foot.
Whenever people can they either used an open faced one or opened up the visor. Closing down the visor was mostly for sieges and when the arrows really started to rain (and cavalry charges when you were at the better end of it)

>>54705560
The helmet is retarded and pure fantasy. The rest of the suit is simply a reconstruction of White Armor.

>>54732738
>White Armor

wat?

Sweet mama jesus I'm just going to list some good armorers so you dumbasses don't do something stupid and buy from Kult of Athena or something.
And that's all I've got for now off the top of my head.

>forgeofsvan.com/
>jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/index.php?cPath=21_28
>wildarmoury.com
>www.steel-mastery.com/en

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>>54732814

>>54732208
This depends entirely on the great helm. I've worn Morgan Bible style great helms and the visibility offered by them is fucking fantastic, you might as well not be wearing a great helm.

>>54732965
it's more about breathing than about visibility.
I for one like oxygen especially if there is fighting to do. Closed face helmets try to block oxygen from me.
As always there are some exceptions, helmets with great breathing area but it's really not the norm for some reason.

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>>54706079
>even if at that point forward they could only stop bullets at long distance
Say that to my face and not online motherfucker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Haselrig#Civil_War

>>54733050
Meh, I don't have many problems with visor-down fighting.

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I found the cheapest armored helmet I've seen on the internet. Only $36 with free shipping too.

https://www.amazon.com/Sugarloaf-Crusaders-Helmet-Wearable-Costume/dp/B018XANBQI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1502050025&sr=8-3&keywords=crusader+helmet

>>54733341

Only good for larp or cosplay. If you went to hmb, sca or a sword fish match with these you could end up seriously fucked.

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>>54733456
Yeah I know, that's why I'm saving up for this one instead. It's the same helmet as in >>54714850

>>54733701

Armets are nice, They do not breath the greatest but have decent protection and weight ratio. And better then average sight.

>>54733785
What do you think is the best helm available?

>>54718868
>Plebs ain't buying cocaine senpai
They are where I live.

>>54733862

Depends on your goals. Some helms work better in different combat situations and or tournaments then others.

And sometimes depends on historical accuracy you want.


For example allot of combat sport dudes in HMB and SCA tend to have open face helms with bar grills behind chainmail. To mask a sport optimised helm that would breath great. And offer slashing/blunt trauma protection. But often forgoing historical accuracy. And it would actually be quite vulnerable to a thrusting weapon. But in their sport like combats its likely one of the best picks. Mostly because no one is either thrusting at you. Or Thrusting with a weapon that would puncture.

Some Helms that requires Bevors. Have great protection but limit your ability to turn your head. Which some fighters dislike. As it makes you less flexible with your sight. But offer much more stable direct protection.

And some people pick all the different variations of the great helm for its nice look and overall solid protection. However these helms usually do not breath well. Great helms however out of all the helms are the easiest to maintain and repair.

Bascinet helms varies upon design. But as a generalisation are like specialised great helms. That are lighter and made often for on foot melee combat instead of as a general all purpose.

Armets are a later century helm that was used both on horseback and foot. With varied designs and features depending. Generally they overall great helms for the type of combat they are designed for. They are also a later century so you could assume they have features that would protect you vs a wider variation of weapons and attacks.

I guess it would also depend on how historically accurate you wish to be. And what ruleset you are fighting under.

As for realistic fighting in full contact. That which is likely used for wars and full out combat. 'which I will outright say hemma,hmb and sca all do not do. Even they all claim such.'

>>54734172

>continued

Then I would honestly reccomend looking upon historical images/documents to see what knights/mercenaries wore back then. As they had to live everyday in this crap. Not the tournament or duel based stuff but, The helms the more fortunate ended up using in battle. And note that war changes within the different ages even though many would think it would be all the same. So the century and all could greatly differ.

>>54726754
Fun fact, women's fashion has historically been tied to men's military garb trends for AGES

>>54705630
WTF from 1610??
id understand 1675 cos of guns but 1650 and 1610 is just retarded??? purpose?

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>>54735189
Guns were still a thing that could be stopped by armor, and the people wearing the armor were heavy cavalry.

Reason it's more segmented is for mobility

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>>54735189
Reduced coverage on the lower legs, which are a smaller target anyway, saves money and weight which is good because proofed plate that can protect against 17thC firearms is heavy and expensive.

You don't have to be completely protected head to toe for armour to be effective.

>>54711129
They still use plates today.

>>54730605
>AD 1059 Pope Urban II launched the FIRST crusade.
>It was a complete fucking shit show and went on to acomplishing nothing remotly close to what the kebabs did centuries earlier.
>Mostly harmed a bunch of christian settlements on the way to the enemy.
>Still completely romanticized by historians

>>54730605
This is stupid on so many levels, chief among them the fact that it refers to Pope Urban II launching the first crusade in 1059.

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>>54716650
Firstly, because so many fantasy settings in media are ones where they just pretend guns never existed. Secondly, the hobby is filled with hordes of beta nerds whose only knowledge and experience of guns comes from liberals and cowadooty. You have to remember that for every person that doesn't fit what I just described, there's five more doing stupid shit right now that do.
Also, while I certainly and obviously have my personal opinions on the matter, it's because the mechanics of TTRPGs just don't match the realities of war. You don't have god-like parties of adventurers running around fighting "world-threatening" enemies which conveniently have somewhat equal forces. Imagine if instead of the party fighting through a dungeon of skeletons 5 or so at a time, they had to wade through an army of tens of thousands backed by cavalry, siege weaponry, volley archers, etc. I don't care what your stats are, they would eventually get enough crits in a row to end any party, which is why you fight an army with another army, but who's going to actually go round after round for some hundred thousand combatants? Meanwhile, a party member with a gun is going to be a lot more effective against the lower numbers a fantasy party faces.
One of my gripes with how guns are handled in fantasy settings is that the people who make/run them think that to make them "balanced" you just need to pretend like loading one takes a year and that the only guns that ever existed until the wild west were shitty little muzzle-loading smoothbores. That assumption is wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beOgmCxeh7A

>>54729073
>Probably I would get some kind of sickness at the end of it but won't dehydrate that quickly.

People dying from the cold after having fought in mail without undergarments in Outremer apparently was an actual problem.

>>54742011
Got a source and especally a date for that?

>>54742073
I think they mention it in that Syrian manual on horseback fighting.

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What would be the composition of an army in a pike and shot setting? Should they be primarily made of mercenaries, some knights for cavalry, or were there state troops from a standing army?

>>54742756
That army there was made up of second sons, Americans and African slave warriors.

>>54705560
The helmet is bullshit and so are the gauntlets. Pretty sure the pauldrons and metal hanging from his hips are also bullshit. Also, the maille hanging from his neck is bullshit (and probably the maille from his hips too). The elbow guards are also bullshit. Now that I think about it, the image is mostly bullshit. It's pseudo-realistic armor.

>>54714376
This post is also bullshit.

>>54730605
Retarded cocksucking /pol/ faggots in charge of writing ((((history)))) books without even knowing what "source" means.

>>54724661
>chainmail is hard to fuck up
shitty butted maille is hard to fuck up

actual riveted maille that will last is easy to fuck up

>>54742011
well, dying from the cold was indeed a problem back then. Modern medicine is one of the reason I would never want to live back in the old days but just have fantasies about it.
Modern toilets another hard reason

>>54743451

Perhaps I am romanticing about past days, but nowadays have their own share of problems as well.

>>54742756
well, depends.

The swiss started with LOTS of pikemen and people who can protect the flanks (with big swords or halberds) and relatively few artillery and firearms.
They didn't had much cavalry as far as I know (apart from the logistic needs), because of the terrain, but I could be wrong.

The germans tried to invade the swiss, several times, and failed several times, so they looked at what the swiss had and said "how could we improve this?" The answer was guns. Lots of guns. the Landsknecht armies (which was the main pike and shot formations for the germans) had a fuckton of firearms arabesques and such, whatever the time allowed AND artillery.
And while they used the firerams for "long range" shooting another tactic was the point blank shooting when to formation was met and the shooters did their things from the ~third rows.

About cavalry, as I said you obviously need some for logistic for scouts etc, but if the terrain isn't fucking mountains everywhere you can use them more on the battlefield too and you could give them pistols and such to kill people a little farther away than stabby distance (although stabby cavalry was still a thing but went out of fashion rapidly)

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>>54743281
Pretty sure this post is mostly bullshit. The hip guards, mail skirt and gauntlets are essentially the same as in pic related. The cauldrons are actually more like spaders, although I'll grant you they look rather poorly attached. The mail hanging from his neck is either a pixane or the bottom of a coif, and the zig-zag pattern isn't unrealistic. The helmet is a little bit bullshit, but I wouldn't say it's egregious. The elbow guards look very similar to these: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/60/f6/cf/60f6cff512c2baf1c213f0908a79c583--arm-armor-medieval-armor.jpg

I mean, there are probably inaccuracies with details and what combinations of pieces were worn together at various time periods, but to call to it "mostly bullshit" is quite silly.

>>54740303
Well the arabs were building an empire. The Christian crusades were more about sending not firstborn sons and fanatics off to die. At least as far as the catholics were concerned. The romans just asked the Pope if he knew a couple of guys interested working as mercs.

>>54743548
that said, the helmet and the bevor together on that pic is bullshit and a prime example when historians just put together random stuff because they think it's cool

>>54742756
Grunts and much of the cav are mercs. The heavy cav are knights.
So its mostly mercs.

>>54743590
not necessarily.
They can all be burghers. Especially the cavalry. That is as long as they are close to their own city because burghers doesn't really went far away from their city to wage war.
There is more to social structure than peasants - mercs - knights

>>54743548
>The hip guards, mail skirt and gauntlets are essentially the same as in pic related.
lmao are you serious? They really aren't.
>hip guards
Look at their shape and embellishments. It's fantasy.
>mail skirt
Your image doesn't have them hanging down to his knees and fully exposed like OP does.
>gauntlets
Notice how OP has individual fingers under the backhand cuff? Fantasy.
>cauldrons
LOL any OP's pauldrons are a fantasy design. They are not attached right and would not have the range of motion required.
>The mail hanging from his neck
Show me a real example of this.
>the helmet is a little bit bullshit
It's pure bullshit.
>The elbow guards look very similar to these
They are different. Look at the fitting. OP image is taking many liberties in functionality.
>I mean, there are probably inaccuracies with details and what combinations of pieces were worn together at various time periods, but to call to it "mostly bullshit" is quite silly.
So you admit that that it's probably a nonsensical assortment of clashing time periods and fantastical elements, yet I can't call it mostly bullshit? Fuck off. Your post is bullshit.

>>54743675
>Show me a real example of this.
You asked, so here you go, there are a few examples on this page: http://www.medievalwarfare.info/armour.htm

Otherwise, you're being so hyperbolic that I don't think there's any point talking to you.

>>54743530
>The germans tried to invade the swiss, several times, and failed several times

The Swiss were/are among other things Germans, Anon. Even subjects of the HRE back then. They went to war (at one point) over issues of the Emperor over-reaching his rights in his quest for an extended family realm.

The invasions also happened before the swiss adapted pike formations. It was all bills, bills and halebards back then.

>>54743815
Those are all tournament helmets. It says so right on that page. Get real, motherfucker.

>>54743858
See what I mean? Look at your post again. Not only is it flat out untrue, it's also unnecessarily aggressive for a casual conversation on an Indonesian shadow-puppet forum. You're not baiting me, are you anon? You wouldn't do that to someone, would you?

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>>54722785
I was under the impression that paiting is what you did withe the (relatively) cheap suits of armour, wich weren't as finely worked/polished.

>>54743845
I'm talking about late 15th century / very early 16th century. and mainly about the wars they waged with Maximiliam I. where the HRE was defeated and this more or less given the swiss freedom/independence from the rest of the HRE. Obviously politically it's more complicated or to be more precise a huge clusterfuck as the rest of the HRE.

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>>54743892
>Not only is it flat out untrue
You REALLY need to FUCK OFF

>>54743975
You're just not thinking clearly. There are tournament helms on the page, but not all of them are. You didn't assume that a few helmets being labelled as 'for tournaments' meant all of them were, did you? You should really put more consideration into your posts in future.

>>54743451
Modern motherfucking dentistry. Just imagine how shirty it must've been.
I wouldn't have any teeth left by now.

>>54744090

Actually, it wasn't as bad, cavieties are caused by sugar and most peasants could probably use a makeshift toothpick from a tree branch or something, not saying it was wonderful, not just as bad

>>54744084
Come on. Post the non tournament helms with maille hanging from the neck on that page. Oh, and don't try to post a helm by itself. It actually has to be paired with the body armor to show how it was actually worn. Do it faggot.

>>54744105
I don't eat sweets, I barely eat processed food, most of the things are eat are what used to be available to people before XIX century.
I brush my teeth two times a day at least, floss and use mouth wash. And I still visit a dentist almost monthly.
Even if you had to have one tooth removed in your lifetime it would be rather traumatic.

>>54743975
Retard do you actually know what that armor was based upon?

>>54744250

I don't even brush my teeth and are as strong as ever, I think the problem might be genes, I live as a dog and i am not falling apart.

>>54744105
You still damage your teeth through badly milled flour, chipping and the like.

>>54744436
Sure it is. I just wouldn't want to be on the shitty end of the genetic lottery.

>>54744591

I am telling it you may be possibly be, like I said, I don't brush, like ever and I got all of the warriors on my mouth.

>>54744562
Glad to know

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1NcepHuQm8
trying to find a video about how norwegians were armoured in the 13th century but of course I didnt favorite it...goddamn.
Will be back if I find it

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>>54744653
oh fuck me! here it is!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th7m7SHb0Yw

>>54744250
>I still visit a dentist almost monthly
I visit twice a year and my dentist tells me I'm overdoing it

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>>54743975
Jousting armor is just heavier normal armor.

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>>54745509
It varies.

On one end point of the scale of course we find people attending tournaments with regular field armour.

On the other end we find things like rennzeug and stechzeug armours, built completely around the rule set for specific forms of jousting. Massive protection where needed for this, little or none otherwise (no armour whatsoever below the waist in many cases), and extremely limited range of motion.

In between we have various armour that may be a field armour that's been beefed up here and cut back a bit there, or in some cases a field armour with a few extra bits added on top, and so on.

Now to try and stick to the subject, a quick look back up the reply chain (I'm a bit short on enthusiasm to really dig into that, so feel free to roll your eyes and ignore this if I'm misunderstanding things) and it seems one issue is whether the mail sticking out underneath the helmet in OP's pic is something you'd see on a real life field helmet, or at least a field helmet of that kind? To which my answer would be that he's probably wearing a mail standard.