Arms in Armor Educational Thread

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>>54667983
Fuck that was supposed to be Arms 'n armor, not arms in armor.

Although I suppose it still works.

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>>54667997

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>>54668025

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>>54668054

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>>54668081

>>54667983
>arms in armor

So per thread topic: was the legendary pollaxe really the best arm to insert fatally into armor, or is that a meme?

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>>54668101

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>>54668146
The spike certainly would be adept at shoving into the armpit, with the reach given, but obviously it's not that simple when you're fighting another trained man. It's really about guarding the points of the body you know are vulnerable, not even bothering to protect the parts that aren't, and trying to use a European style judo to throw your opponent to the floor or pin him and shove something sharp into where it isn't supposed to be. I'd also personally prefer a beck de corbin for hooking the armor and trying to drag the guy to the floor.

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>>54668296

>>54668296

Yes, but what about the hammer bit? I'm given to understand there was also a hammer bit

>>54667983
Awright, got a question. When looking at full sets of armor, whether fantastical or historical, I'm never quite sure how protection and mobility around the waist, crotch and upper legs area match up. It seems that any armor that makes any attempt at realism (meaning that it's not a full rigid tin can) has to make concessions to mobility in detriment to protection, in order to be practical.

Basically what I'm asking is how armored can your dong be before you can't move.

Someone in a previous thread posted a diagram of the advancement of firearms from the 14th to 19th centuries; would anyone happen to have it?

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>>54668614
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMfjHANRVw

You might find this interesting. The guy does really detailed vids that are actually well researched and cited. Best A&A youtuber by a country mile.

This is possibly the best set-up for combining mobility and groin protection but is for foot tournament use only and not warfare.

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>>54668529
The hammer is only going to do very real damage if the person is on the ground (and thus they can't stumble backwards to absorb force) or you strike them firmly on the head. Otherwise it's just means of pounding the guy to the floor.

>>54668614

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>>54668778

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>>54668898

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>>54668949

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>>54668998

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Bump

>>54667997
>>54668054
Sweater knights= ugly aesthetic imo

>>54672763

Perhaps, but it's certainly functional. It keeps some dings and dents off your expensive plate, and makes your allegiance easily identifiable on the battlefield.

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>>54672763
nah anon they great and most medieval nations did it

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>>54672848

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anyone has pics/info of the original one of this? Allegedly it's from the Toledo Army museum

>>54667983
Something I've wondered about for some time: how much neck mobility did armet/close helm allow? Could the wearer turn their head? Nod? Tilt it to the side?

>>54672913
Have you tried... writing the museum in question?

Looks like a composite piece to me.

>>54672972
not yet, as only a friend is interested in it but it might come to that

>>54672941
those are all possible although slightly restricted, especially because helmets are usually kind of heavy to protect.
But what mostly restricts you for those movements are the bevor and gorget or equivalents

>>54672941
>>54672999
What really makes helmets suck is the limited field of vision.

My eyes aren't great anyway, but I casically can't see shit in a closed helmet.

>>54673020
I can see everyting I have to in mine, although I use an open helmet with a falling buffe, so there is that

>>54668146
https://youtu.be/7qHpoeYyfl0?t=2317
Ask Mike Loades

How often did greatswords see use in battle? I know that with most guys running around in decent armour, it would be less than practical to try and cut a dude with a big honking claymore or zweihander, but I legitimately am curious as to what sort of situation's they'd see use in.

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>>54673159
There is like ONE woodcut that shows germans (I think) using it against swedish(I think) pikes.
As far as I've been told by better read amrchair historians than me though have some salt they were used more by champions, protectors of standard bearers and bodyguards, both military and civilian.
And of course as judicial duel weapons.

>>54673159
Define "greatsword" and "battle". They were definitely used, although exactly what kind of sword in what kind of battle and how varies. There's a theory that two handed swords were used to break pike formations, for instance.

>>54673222

Then there's shits like Montante, who boasted that his "wave/spin around a fuckhuge sword and never, ever, fucking stop" style is the best for personal defense and can handle any number of attackers.

Unless they have bows I guess.

>>54673159
Greatswords were used by common infantry (elite, but still not knights) against other infantry. Their roles were to break pike lines and protect officers/banners.

In other words, you are not expected to go against a fully armored dude with a greatsword. Your intended opponent has at most a shitty munitions breastplate with pauldrons.

>>54673159
it's were in use in battles briefly (half a century maybe but depends on your definition of fuckhuge sword)
Mostly it's a crowd control weapon so protecting flanks and bodyguarding officiers, flag bearers and such where it was used on the battlefield

>>54673247
>Their roles were to break pike lines
and this is what we have no evidence of at all so I'm calling bullshit.

>>54673222
>There is like ONE woodcut that shows germans (I think) using it against swedish(I think) pikes.
that one was made several years after the battle and meant to show one heroic guy who went back for the flag and actually succeeded so I would take it with a grain of salt

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>>54672999
I'm asking about close helm/armet, which had an integrated gorget

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>>54673267
no, this one

>>54673270
Only slightly more mobile than michael keaton batman

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>>54673287
sadly, that's the one I'm talking about

>>54673270
as I said small motions are possible but most of those things you do from the torso. for comforts sake

>>54673321
Concerning Zweihänder:
I read somewhere that they were a common sight in the Verlorener Haufen, a formation of condemned Landsknechte, Doppelsöldner and prisoners sentenced to death, who would be positioned in front of the regular troops to break enemy formations. Quite similar to the picture you posted.

>>54673400
Skirmishers

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>>54673159
The first question there is "What's a greatsword?".

We basically have two variants here. The early "greats word of war", ie Oakeshott XIIa, XIII, XIIIa, things like that. These are usually "longsword sized" with a focus on powerful swinging cuts. As per the name, these were very much meant for war, and I'm under the impression that they wouldn't have been terribly rare to bring along. We also see something of a revival of the type later on, with the type XX, and even later we see things like the highland greatsword (what people call claymore), various naval swords, and so on following similar ideas. From what I've understood the highland greatsword most likely saw next to no action whatsoever, but the rest should have seen some use, even if they may not have been terribly common in their time. These swords could obviously cause enormous damage to any unarmoured part they found, and may also be able to hammer through armour to some degree as well, though that wouldn't be ideal. It's largely a weapon used in the period where "full armour" at most means a full wrap of mail though, unless I'm misremebering my dates. For the latter types we will get into full plate times, but most soldiers at the time would probably not have full plate, rather helmet, cuirass, and perhaps a few bits for the limbs.

Then we have greatswords as in the large, pure twohanders that pop up mostly in the 16th century. While we often hear about them being used to swat aside pike s(or even cut them, though that claim's rare nowadays) this sis most likely bullshit, as nobody seems to be able to find any primary sources backing this. Instead what we do have is people from back then telling us how these large swords are very good at crowd control. Large swings makes for a lot of space around you people don't want to be in. IIRC we have some material pointing to them being popular with banner guards and the like, which would fit the crowd control theme, but don't ask me to dig those up.

>>54673400
I have not read credible source about that so far, but that obviously proves nothing.

But that picture is about the Second War of Kappel, it's not a forlon hope formation as you can see the army on the left (Zürich) is routed and hard on retreating, regardless of that some dudes attacking to the right. If this were a forlon hope then it would be actually a suicide squad because nearly nobody worthwhile follows them and won't stop the attackers.
But that's not the case because as I said it's about how one dude got back the flag regardless of a defeat. The battle in 1531, the picture was made in 1548 and the guy was pretty much a hero after this deed. So as I said I would take it with a grain of salt

>>54667983
Why is shipping from India so outrageous?

>>54673447
because indians are proto-gypsies

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>>54673267
>>54673247
>>54673408
I have practiced the "Greatsword" or more specifically Montante the for several Years after moving off of the Fiore Longsword. Most original Manuals and Scripts show us that the Montante was generally made for "crowd- control" and protecting Individuals, or even what Figueiredo describes as "hoards of Treasubre". The Manuals are typically laid out in individual Tempos of series of Swings for you to copy, so that you can learn the Fluidity You need to fight freely.

Other sources such as Alfieri and Gotter's Translations show that Spadones (in reality a longsword), Montantes and Zweihänders were used by bodyguards of important individuals, not only on the battlefield but in civilian life. Many Scripts and Plays dictate "for protection of the lady", or "protection of the surrounded nobles", so on so forth. The sweeping Cuts are present in all Manuals and show that you require and must create great spaces to fight efficiently.

What I have taken from the Manuals is that the Montante in specifically was used more in Civilian life but that the Zweihänder and Spadone and similar variations had a very serious Battlefield purpose.

This is very skilled and shows the Tempo excellently and fights with fluidity.

https://youtu.be/nYNy_drriXs
https://youtu.be/OtT3sjO0ocU
https://youtu.be/oZFEUM5fdgU

>>54673447
Don't buy armour from India.

sallets and matchlocks
y/n?

>>54673786
sallets no
matchlocks yes

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>>54673756
Mine turned out pretty well

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>>54673786
You should have a bit of overlap around 1500, but not for very long. The sallet wearing gunner is more likely to have tiller-stocked gonne with nought but a touch hole.

So, about plate armed knights, could they use bows? the question is could, not should or wanted.

In a setting of mine, a few dozen knights and men go hunt suposed monsters in a forest, something happens and most of them get killed, only leaving the knights who take bows and arrows to get a bit of an advantage. So, could a knight use a bow and arrow without much trouble?

>>54674649
probbably could but I would wager that some things wouldn't work that good depending on spexific bows and armours.

Crossbows on the other hand are fair game, that was used even with armour

>>54674761

perhaps the 1400 or 1500, not munitions armor and while crossbows are fair games, they were only using bows in the situation.

>>54674831
well if they REALLY want to use the bows and some parts of the armour hinders (gauntlets, elbow and shoulder pieces) they can probably take off some of those.
But as I said probably they would be fine, what movement you need for archery isn't restricted that much. It won't be ideal but workable

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>>54674649
I could see some pauldron, elbow and gauntlet designs getting in the way (of the bowstring mostly), but I suspect making it possible isn't more complicated than simply not using those specific designs.

>>54672732
Jesus, for a second I thought this was the longest sword in existence

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>>54674979

>>54674953
>>54674944

I see, thanks m8, now i can play xenomorphs in the middle ages, thanks.

>>54673236
>spoiler

Not with that fucking attitude, son.

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Houndskull bascinets are shit. Whatever this style is called a best.

>>54673408
>>54673678
So in other words, it only works because people don't have shields or full armor.

>>54673836
put some damn padding under that chainmail

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IWhat armor is this person in the pic wearing?

>>54676562
>What armor is this person in the pic wearing?
brigandine over a mail coat

>>54676562
Coat of plates.

>>54673678
You can tell a nigga's nothing to fuck with when he begins the fight by kicking his sword off the ground.

>>54676562
One that can't float in icy water.

But seriously, that green chestpiece is called a brigandine.

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>>54676562
There's no name for the whole style "transitional plate" or "Schott-Sonnenberg style harness". A proper description would basically just be listing the part. Mail hauberk, coat of plates, bascinet, etc.

Swap the coat of plates for a breastplate and add plate legs for transitional plate armour, but he's not there yet.

>>54668998
>>54669097
>>54668898
Such an ugly helmet

>>54676525
bitch please

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>>54676525
shit taste desu

>>54677145
That guy with the sword is fucked unless he aims right for the face.

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>>54673678
>Rule 10: Guarding a lady

And the neckbeards are still buying katanas like they're crack.

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>>54676907
You shut your whore mouth

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>>54676525
That is literally a fake helmet. It wasn't based at all on history, but made by the owner to look cool. It's total fantasy.

>>54676532

>literally the 'dies to removal' of historical weapons threads

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>>54680672

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>>54680672
Eh, it's a modified version of helmets that actually existed. Here's an example of one.

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>>54680815
And another example, those these are more similar to the first one you posted because of how the visors seem to work.

>>54673756
what is wrong with it?

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>>54680834
And here's a cheaper/novice made example of the same basic concept.

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>>54680815
That's nothing like the helmet that was posted. Firstly the visor is one single piece, not riveted together making it incredibly weak, the face is shaped and the eyes protrude in a protective beak shape so you can't just shove a sword point in there so easily.

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>>54680886
The riveting I'll give you, but the hound skull shape isn't a necessity, like the guy on the far left or second from right of >>54680834

Plus, where do you think the visor on the ahistorical visor barbute is from? It wasn't a new made piece that got stuck on the helmet.

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>>54680886

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>>54680963

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>tfw you love medieval armor and historical reenactment
>tfw you can into it because you're a woman
Why even live

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>>54681584
First of all
>women on 4chan

Second of all

There's nothing stopping you from getting armor made that fits you. Well, except for the cost and potentially the lack of historical stuff to go off of.

>>54681584
Buy churgburg armor, should fit your boobs fine.

>>54681623
>>54681633
Is more the historical accuracy problem I'm dealing with.
Woman in armies are few and far between.

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>>54681584
Most re-enactment groups seem to happily ignore various undesirable aspects of the middle ages/renaissance, like famine, plague and all that, so I don't think you need to give up entirely quite yet. And there's always the HEMA side of things as well, were the issue will be to find a group doing armoured work, not your gender.

>>54673222
>54673222
>Burgonet

Yes lad.

>>54681584
>>54681659
C A M P F O L L O W E R

Basically, (armed) women that travelled together with an army or band of warriors, taking care of the camp, hunting, protecting the loot, healing the injured, cooking food, selling goods to the soldiers.
You might get some jokes about being a "camp follower" if you know what I mean prostitutes that follow the army are technically also camp followers, but historically speaking it's not that odd that a camp follower would end up as a warrior eventually after showing skill at protecting the war loot/food from brigands, deserters or whatever.
Medieval people were pragmatic people, they weren't fucking retarded Victorian cunts.

>>54681584
>(You)

>>54681623
>the lack of historical stuff to go off of
see >>54682009, if you can imitate the style (mostly High MA or Renaissance, from what I´ve seen), you´ll be fine as a tough armed camp bitch or whatever

I bump thee

>>54682356
That guy's chin and throat are fucked. A sallet without the lower part is a useless sallet.

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>>54683787
Armour doesn't need to cover every last spot to be useful. A bit here and there can help a lot, and he's wearing quite a bit more than that. And for this specific opening, let's not forget the vast amount of helmets throughout history that do not protect your lower face and throat, but have seen extensive popularity regardless, some without the mail standard that this guy has. Simply skull caps, conical helmets, kettle hats, visor-less bascinets, open faced sallets and celada, the pikeman's pot, morion, etc.

A sallet isn't rendered useless when you don't wear the bevor, a sallet is rendered useless when you don't wear the sallet. So let's move past this "it has to be full plate all the time" nonsense.

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>>54668624

>>54680843
seriously, what is bad about buying Indian?

>>54684018
people tend to forget that while armor is indeed a very good thing to have they are just the last line of defense. You preferably does not cooperate in getting hit.
It's a shocking revelation for most.

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>>54681584
become a weeb

>>54681584
>scrolling down thread
>silly boys im a girl :)
>have to abandon thread now since 70% of posts under will be nothing but thirsty betas responding

this is why women shouldnt be able to vote

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thoughts?

what material would you use for the head decoration?

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>>54685466
They weren't but by all means try to rekindle things with your bait and no pictures.

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>>54667983
People usually like to know these:

https://pastebin.com/RZifh6nu
>Real Life European Dual Sword Wielding
>TL;DR: It was done historically. It had the following disadvantages:

>-You need at the very least three times more training than with a single sword, because you have to learn to use it with your right hand, then learn with your left, to finally learn to use both without one disturbing the movements of the other.

>-Di Grassi warns that this style should be used only at tourneys and duels, never wars. That's because dual handling demands too much concentration for one to focus on the kind of cooperative coordination that makes the difference between a bunch of warriors and an army.

>-Last but not least, it should be used against enemies with few to no armor. The reason is that a single sword used with both hands brings you the necessary power and precision to find weak points and target joints, be it a plate harness or a gambeson.

>The adavantages were:

>-Everything the right hand does, the left does as well, as both have equal reach. The "secondary" weapon is up for you to decide, and it may be the other one second later. The average swordsman already has some trouble fighting left-handed warriors, but he's going to have a hard time trying to guess which hand is feinting and which hand is actually attacking, for you can do both at the same time with either!

>-Because dual wield is so hard to accomplish, users of this style are sure to enjoy fame at tourneys, impressing the public and competitors alike.

https://pastebin.com/MVqh7Yi9
>Sources about cavarly warfare and related topics

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>>54681584
>Kastenbrust breastplate + tonlets = historically accurate yet feminine armor
Wow that was hard

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>>54685484
wrong version of pic, here's resized

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>>54685539

>>54677145
Obviously its a modern art piece but would plate actually be penetrated by arrows like in that picture?

>>54682282
Anon, I think part of the issue is being seen as something lesser than the menfolk around, and (almost assuredly) treated as such.
Unless you think the reenactment crowd is stocked with goodly folk (it's not) who will accept others for their love of the hobby (they won't until you knock a couple heads around).
t. your resident black reenactor

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>>54685573
https://youtu.be/CTYuYxmICGo

https://youtu.be/xsVaT694wI8

>>54685575
Not likely. And even if they did, the padding may have prevented any actual wound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uxHYQW2Nio

https://youtu.be/q1WZLVZYBwQ

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>>54685676

>>54685575
Look where the arrow is stuck, anon, it's in the gap between breastplate and helm.
If it's maille or jack, it's probably a nonissue wound, painful, distracting, but not lethal.

In the recent Game of Thrones episode, one of the characters tells the armorsmiths to put leather on/in the plate armor because an abnormally cold winter is going to come along and they need to prepare themselves to fight ice zombies.

Has there ever been a case of leather as part of the plate armor (not just wearing leather under it) for fighting in cold climates?

>>54685799
there are several other arrows stuck in plate in that picture

>>54685799
I meant more the poor dude in blue struck by three. I also saw an Osprey illustration of a poor sap shot in the leg and bleeding from an arrow. For all intents and purposes he was full plated. But in reality could that happen?

>>54682134
I know a lot of books and historians say shields became obsolete once full playe came into being. But I have seen some primary illustrations showing heavily armoured knights with one or two in the crowd holding a shield mid skirmish.

Historically would some knights have used a shield on foot anyway just to be cautious or even a preferred style of fighting?

I love the sword and board image be it an rpg or a dark souls vidya.

>>54685891
>>54685835
I didn't notice the guy stuck in the leg.
I mean, it's possible, shit happens in battle and no all plate is 18th century germanic, but it would have little real effect.
>>54685941
Shields still have use as ablatives and as a tool to distract and feint. Sure, that axe blow may not kill you, but taking it on the arm will hurt your arm, whereas eating on the chest will knock the wind out of you, or on the knee tearing ligaments.
Like any tool, it has a purpose, and it is not always needed.

>>54685941
Greaves tend to be thinner, springier metal IIRC. Even accounting for the greater curve of the plates, it isn't that hard to imagine a heavy warbow hitting at just the right angle and piercing a little extra. Cuissies I imagine as being less likely, and there's probably some mail around there anyways.

>>54672848
>>54672871
Speaking of aesthetic, I've never been able to get over how fucking goofy these sorts of helmets are. They look like some George Lucas first drafts or some shit.

>>54685560
Im happy he graduated

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>>54668081
Is...is that helmet made out of purple suede?

Because I need to buy that right the fuck now if it is.

>>54686660
Velvet covering.

>>54676532
>So in other words, it only works because people don't have shields or full armor.

A lot of two handed sword techniques are for use in blossfechten, unarmored fighting. So yes.

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I build armor and fight in it Ask anything.

>>54686310
I believe the pointed faces make potentially fatal arrows glance off

>>54685575
Note that they aren't actually all that affected by the arrows. They're just stuck in the padding. That particular piece was done in collaboration with Toby Capwell, so it's a pretty solid rendition.

>>54687515
Can plate armor be damaged by falling down beyond superficial scratches?

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don't mind me just being the ABSOLUTE COOLEST

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:3

>>54668081
What is this style of helmet called? (IDGAF about the velvet/suede tho)

>>54689462
Black sallet, munition.

>>54689563
thanks

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Is there any way for an Asian manlet to do historical reenactments and be historically accurate at the same time?

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Does anyone know the name of the jacket thing the guy in the middle is using?

>>54689898
Well, there were short knights, ifyou were able to fight you probably would

>>54689898
Not everyone is a 6ft+ Ubermensch. The guy in this video is pretty small, but I wouldn't fuck with him in armour unless I had some of my own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ9Qpxs1a9I

>>54689898
How manlet is manlet. If you're not like exceptionally short you should be fine.

>>54688586
I can't see a possibility of the plate being damaged from a fall. However a pin, rivet, or strap could. Which if serious enough would force the man-at-arms to yield/withdraw from combat.

>>54689898
Historical armor documents how euros have been getting taller over time, you should be fine.

>>54689898
Most historical people were manlets so you should be fine.

How to make a world with renaissance tech, and give it that antiquity feeling?
I need to get rid of that medieval army model where a trained soldier was so "expensive" it was economically viable to give them a nice nasal helmet and a thick mail hauberk.
>large armies
>almost everyone just has some cheap non-metal armour, a metal helmet, a metal weapon
>veterans might have some cheap metal armour or expensive non-metal armour
>nobility and real hardcore motherfuckers have plate
Basically (c)RPG armour rules. Except ones that make sense.

I've already got (magical) global travel/trade, so perhaps every continent having access to corn, potato, cassave, rice etc. helps the world population grow so big, metals become more expensive than people/ people become cheaper than metals?

>>54691505
Pretty sure medieval people were only a little bit smaller than us modern people. People shrank during the industrial revolution because they only got potatoes and bread for food and inhaled fucking toxic fumes on a daily basis.

>>54685817
I'm 80% sure that whenever leather was put on armour it was never because of heat management.

>>54691576

Why can't they just have cheap metal armor? I assume the English System of Manufactures is around at this point.

>>54690665
you should look at more originals, especially munitions grade. There are some very fucking thin helmets and such out there that probably saved from one or two hits (which is already one or two more than your head could take) and that's it. On the upside they are light as hell so marching all day in it isn't that big of a problem. Plus probably it was cheaper.

>>54692234
Yeah I was thinking better armor than munitions, but munitions and other lower quality would have been the more common form and should really be thought of more.

>>54692384
also their ugliness has their own charm sometimes

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>>54692563
Ugliness can be attractive, or you can paint it relatively cheaply and look like a BAMF.

>>54692854
yep, although asymmetry was pretty much everywhere even on high grade stuff. I mean if a sword that has no two paralel lines is good enough for the spanish king it should be good enough for me.

>>54692918
Yeah a lot of the times it's put there for a reason. Like to make a visor stay up.

>>54673159
So far as I know, the 'Greatsword' as most people understand it was kind of a joke among German Mercenaries.

It was considered a fool's weapon, often used by nobility because they were expensive and showy, a response to the growing popularity of things like Pikes and other pole-weapons on the battlefield. "Well, if big and long weapons are going to be used, I'll have a big, long sword made!"

In response to this, German Mercenaries would carry them, claim that they were experts in the use of such an exotic weapon and demand double pay because of it. Often times, mercenary companies would carry even larger versions in parades to look impressive and thumb their noses at the rich nobility who would hire them without knowing they were essentially useless.

>>54673678
Do we have any particular sure notion as to where the Spadone/Zweihander originally came from?

If it was considered a foreign weapon, then the talk of german mercenaries using it to claim double pay because of their proficiency with it would hold some water.

Did other cultures have counterparts to greatswords? Specifically interested in Ottomans.

>>54697174
Dacian Falx
Thracian Rhomphaia
Various Japanese weapons such as the Odachi and Nagamaki
Chinese Zhanmadao

European greatswords had a greater emphasis on thrusting than most of those weapons but they fit the category of large and scary two handed swords.

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>>54696749
While noblemen may at times have been fond of very large swords, that'd be for processions, probably carried by their bodyguards rather than by them in person.

Apart from such bearing swords, for any form of combat these large two handed swords would be infantry weapons, while for the nobility considered fighting on foot to be a job for lesser men.

We should also rememberer that the nobility of the time was Europe's warrior caste. They would generally be raised with martial practice, martial history, and studies of tactics and strategy. They may have been very conservative about some parts (like their reluctance to personally pick up ranged weapons), but when it came to army composition they would frequently be quite on top of what had worked were, and try to copy that. Especially in this period of rapid change on the battlefield as pike and shot are taking over amongst the infantry. The idea that they'd be martially illiterate fops who didn't know what would work on the battlefield doesn't match the impression I have of affairs here, it sounds far more like some modern ideas springing from French revolution and anglo-american classism getting back dated. We also do note that most people hiring mercenaries at the time were paying a premium for veterans, matching the much greater reliability of such, so there at least we have a case of them being able to pay more of better troops on a rational basis.

As such I find this whole thing highly unlikely.

>>54696795
The "zweihander" style is very solidly associated with the German cultural sphere, so while I haven't seen any work on its origins I would (until then) hold it as most likely being thoroughly German in origin. As for who first let a sword grow to two-hander size, that would probably be in the 12th or 13th century, with too-large-for-combat bearing swords being around by 1400 at the latest, letting them become "local" everywhere before 1500.

Far from all doppelsoldners sued twohanders as well.

This is marginally related, but what did banners look like? I know they would have likely varied a lot from region to region and in different time periods but I would like any examples you guys can give.

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>>54699584
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?tags=%22banner%22

>>54699960
Thanks.

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>>54699584
While a bit worn, here's a few Russian ones from the trophy collection of the Army Museum in Stockholm, captured at Narva in 1700.

>>54697765
What are even the practical reasons for using zweihanders and other big two handed swords and shit when you could just use a polearm

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>>54700568
I don't really know. My best guess is that thanks to the longer edge there's a greater range of, well, ranges where a sweeping cut can cause significant harm, thus making for a greater zone of death when you try to sue such cuts for crowd control.

The lighter ones may also be more nimble than a halberd or so from what I've heard. So if that's your compromise of choice then that'd be desirable. Depending on training and personal preference you may also just be more confident, comfortable and effective with a sword than a polearm.

>>54700568
Reach of a small polearm. Defensive capabilities of a sword.

>>54680843
Literally the worst possible quality and shoddy construction you could buy
Cheap as hell and delivery times are actually relatively fast.
You want to buy either Russian or Ukrainian for the best stuff. There are good armorers elsewhere too.
T. I fight in armor and have seen people get injured BUNCH in armor from India.