How has social justice affected your campaigns? Have you ever

>>54667777

You get these sorts now and again, but as a GM, I generally ask them to leave in a session or two. Basically, they're problem players.

>>54667805
What sort of problems did they cause?

>>54667805
Any player that it's extreme with their ideologies it's not welcome in my group.
Also the upcoming wave of anti-/pol/, pro-/pol/ and I'mherefortheride-/pol/ anons will be here soon.

>>54667777
Yes
>plays as transgender dragonborn bard
>since they identify as half elf, they ask for half elf racial bonuses too
>asks for every NPCs skin colour to make sure campaign isn't white washed
>hits on every PoC and accuses group of homophobia when they want to move on with story
>murders every rich person they can find
>first thing she does in first campaign is to ask to visit the hair dye store
>roars "FEEL THE BERN" irl as loud as she can when she uses dragon breath
It was awful

>>54667962
What sort of problems -don't- they cause?

>>54668417
I'll take 'shit that never happened' for 500, alex.

My entire group is trans, so...

>>54668499
>500

>>54667777

No, but I played with someone who was funny with his in-game racism, but then we found out his racist in-game behavior stemmed from his racist real life persona and it got super uncomfortable.

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>>54667777
i onced played twilight imperium with a 5 foot tall chubby SJW girl.
i said some MRA stuff to troll her.
she then suicided all her shit against my fleets.
i achieved my secret objective after ruining her.
she has only a few units left, all on my border.
her undefended border on the opposite side gets invaded by the player.
she rage quits.

that was a fun game.

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>>54668560
Eww.

>>54668848
MRA?

>>54668780
>I can't handle other people's opinions

Wooh, sure is Reddit in here.

>>54668915
mens rigths activist
people that want to correct the sexism men face in family courts and education, basically.
since SJWs are all female supremacists, they hate MRAs with a burning menstruating passion.

>>54669014
Ah ok. Gotcha. I think I know some of that. I saw the stuff about the 'men on strike' book.

>>54668954
>I can't handle other people's opinions

right back at ya buddy, thanks for the (You)

>>54668780
I game with a former clansman. (He had a daughter a few years ago and realized he needed to stop being quite such a bigoted cunt, but still).

Decent guy. Keeps it to himself. Plays a decent dwarf fighter. Never getting drunk with him again, though.

>>54667777

> That picture

Unrelated, but it is so hard to find a Lizardman mini not wearing rags or a loincloth. 'Lizardman with pants' has become my white whale.

>>54669039
IMO the biggest issue is that 90% of convicted criminals and homocide victims are men.

No, I made concessions to try to get my friend to play. After $100 buying stupid shit I wouldn't otherwise use and completely bastardizing my campaign setting to suit his tastes, he was a no-show.

So I don't do that shit anymore, I run the games I want to run, and if the players don't like it, they can take a walk or run their own game, but on the plus side I did manage to get a little mileage out of that Dundjinni software I bought during the XP years.

>>54669202
greenstuff

>>54669219
$100 on what? Splatbooks?

>>54668560
>My entire group is trans, so...

You can be Trans and not a sjw.

>>54667777
Not really closest I've got is the transguy that plays dnd with us. His only real problem is that he's really timid otherwise no issues.

>>54667777
>Have you ever gamed with an SJW?
I don't think they exist in real life t bh. Pretty sure it's just a stupid costume some people put on to troll, on the internet. They've never affected anything in my real life.

My gaming group is actually /pol/ friendly.

Thinking of making Jewish BBEGs at one point.

>>54669350
My boss's wife is a hardcore cunt. Sorry, SJW.

Sat me down at the last Christmas party to "educate" me about consent. Because I like to mess with my friends when they're stoned.

Fucking cunt.

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>>54667777
Only ever seen MRA and Randroids try to insert their bullshit into every aspect of a campaign.

Some asshole tried to run a "Megacorps Didn Do Nuffin Wrong" Shadowrun game, but his blatant proselytization made Rand's writing look downright subtle, and nobody came back.

>>54667777
Anyone that tries to bring up polemics into the game that don't fit the theme intended for the campaign is immediatelly told to fuck off.

>>54669350
This. I live in a fairly liberal city and have yet to run into one.

>>54668780
I play a racist ranger for kicks but I'm not sure if my group thinks I'm actually racist.

>>54667962

Everything! They found everything offensive. Killing orcs was offensive, the lack of gay people was offensive, the monarchy was offensive, the vast number of white characters was offensive. Also, implying that rape would happen if a woman was captured alive was offensive, but not as offensive as a noble Princess insisting that "Look, I don't care about the world beyond the kingdom. I have commoners to do things for me."

Everything was construed to be problematic. How can I run a game when a player finds everything offensive? I outright stated "Expect Game of Thrones-level stuff" to cover my ass.

I cannot work with these people.

>>54669350
They do exist, just yesterday I met a guy who is being sued for offending one (which is totally valid in this country, for some reason).

>>54669421
You might be blinded by bias or just lucky.

>>54667963

For what it's worth, I'm Chinese. Most of my PCs are tremendously racist to non-humans. I never spare goblin babies, for instance. Like, I don't truck with noble savages or repentant orcs, I just kill them.

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>Shit that never happened but supports the mental strawman that I've built in my head of the opposite political ideology to mine

So... what you're all saying is that /tg/ doesn't actually play games, they just write bullshit greentext about the games they wish they played.

>>54668417
>y-yeah guys, this was a real thing that totally happened
My man, if you can't make it believable, at least make it entertaining

>>54667777
Yes.
>Run online campaign for some friends
>'Hey anon, can my friend join? She's cool.'
>She knows the system, is willing to tolerate a custom setting and joining an in-progress campaign
>'sure why not'
>"I'm going to be playing a female Dragonborn Barbarian"
>'okay-'
>"But they call themselves male"
>'... okay.'
>red flags
>men and women adventurers equal in this world, no real reason to hide your gender
>roll with it because need more players
>literally any time the character is addressed as ma'am she screeches in character about how 'ACTUALLY, I'M A SIR'
>then screeches OOCly about how 'intolerant this setting is'
>NPC addresses the party as 'ladies and gentlemen'
>interrupts reveal to screech about how 'ACTUALLY I'M A SIR'
>slog through the rest of the campaign
>get to the end
>she's still doing it
>throw a deck of many things out because I know the three problematic players won't be able to resist (eight person party)
>she doesn't understand the dire nature of the item OOCly
>'I DRAW FIVE!'
>first draw
>draws The Void
>soul gets taken possession of by an Archdevil
>spends the rest of the night bitching at me in DMs about how 'if i hate trans characters I shouldd have just said so but its pretty disgusting'

>>54669492
You new here?

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>>54669492
>people have political ideologies different from mine and don't appreciate political ideologies being shoved into games

>better deny that problem players like this exist

>>54667777

I have one. I was running Curse of Strahd, and one PC threw a shitfit that Strahd's male vampire bride had been excised from the game.

I booted that player immediately, because she was obviously cheating by reading from the module. I personally think the idea's repulsive, but openly cheating is even worse.

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>>54667777
>How has social justice affected your campaigns?
I'd say minimally.
I mean, we've had campaigns where we've fought for the freedom of oppressed peoples, along with dealing with racism among the different fantasy races, but those are pretty normal staples in fantasy games.

I guess one aspect is that fact that we often have badass female PCs and NPCs, but I don't think SJWs have to have a monopoly on strong female characters.

>Have you ever had to make concessions to appear more politically correct?
Not once.
Granted we don't really do anything that any of us feel needs to be "corrected". I'm sure an ultra SJW might find some things to take offense for (for instance I played a flamboyant, womanizing half-elf bard in our last campaign), but our group just doesn't get offended over these things.

>Have you ever gamed with an SJW?
Eh, my group is fairly liberal, but I wouldn't say SJW.

If I'm being completely honest, I myself am probably about three steps away from what people would consider "SJW". Except I don't flagellate myself for being a straight white cis male or hate other people for being straight/white/cis/male. It's sort of the opposite of progressive when you hate people or yourself for being born the "wrong" race/sex/orientation/gender/whatever the fuck.

>>54668560
So's a good chunk of /pol/, that means nothing

>>54667777
I made a /pol/ incarnate character one time. LE cleric of the god of tyranny who was convinced there was a (((dwarven conspiracy))) out to get him and refused to heal non-human races.

Most of my group is /pol/-approved though, so they just thought it was funny and didn't give me shit for it.

>>54669210
>homocide

>>54667777
>Have you ever gamed with an SJW?
The term "male ally" would be more apt.
Interestingly, while he went full socjus, his characters would typically be racist as fuck. Even in campaigns where monster races were playable or there were aliens, his characters always hated "niggers" which were always humans with dark skin.

>>54668499
No it's true I was there clapping

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>>54669583
>better deny that problem players like this exist
I Challenge you to find one plausible story in this entire wall of made-up greentext.

>>54669603
I mean, as long as the group is all on the same page and nobody is trying to "beat the game into submission" it's all cool.

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>>54669202

Lizardman in revolutionary era clothing and white powdered wig in my white whale

desu if you need lizardman in pants why not load up Skyrim, make an Argonian and put pants on him?

>>54669653
That's impossible, anon, because to you the idea of problematic players don't exist.

>>54668417
isn't plausible, though, I'll give you that.

>>54669472
You're staying true to Gygax and Tolkien. Good on you mate.

>>54669631
That's what it's called when the gay mafia puts a hit on you

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>>54669682
>>54669202

I hope this is some consolation, but have this very well-dressed, sharp looking Lizard gentleman.

>>54669715

GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME

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I only play with other /pol/fags. There's a lot less drama for everyone that way.

>>54669524
>>54668417
Either otherkin shenanigans or stale copypasta

>>54667777
One of my long time players started "dating" a vegan/sjw type girl. He lost his shit in the middle of a campaign when I was describing that the kingdom had an open slave market. He got excited at the chance to virtue signal and started shrieking that I change it. I refused and got called a rapist. The store owner kicked him out of the store for disturbing the customers.

He had to make some apologies six months later after finding he had been black listed and also his girl was fucking a black dude while using him to buy her shit.

>>54667777
There's a lot more "monsters are just misunderstood/misrepresented minorities and they can coexist with society if given a chance" plotlines in recent campaigns, I've noticed. Not sure if that's a social justice thing or just a side effect of Monster Musume becoming widespread. Probably a mix of both.

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>>54669787
kek 'n' rekt

>>54669779
am the poster of >>54669524

dragonborn tend to attract fucktards, either in the form of this type of shit or just generally fucking shitty players who wanna be SKYRIM MAN before actually seeing what the race is.

i've never seen a good dragonborn player.

>>54669202
>>54669682
>>54669715
>>54669744
Y'know, there's people on the internet who draw things in exchange for money; and fairly cheaply too.

On the thread topic, as someone who some might call an SJW, I've not run into any behaviors that I would object to.

But then again, I also understand that this is fantasy, not reality. In the real world I don't make somewhat seriously obliquely promises to torture an immortal being for information, then proceed anyhow when he gives me what I want.

I especially don't go around in the real world and advocate tossing them into a large pour of molten lead and dumping it into the deepest part of the ocean. While still being alive due to the mentioned immortality, you see.

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>>54669683
>That's impossible, anon, because to you the idea of problematic players don't exist.
I've experienced problem players, no doubt. However, usually it's a lonely NEET or chubby catgirl who spends most of the game on autopilot waiting for opportunities to make the rest of the session about their fucked up fetishes, or that one guy that tries to force the entire party to murderhobo by insta-charging literally everything, or that dick who spends the entire game trying to find ways to backstab the party.

In my experience, even the most autistic of gamers knows not to bring politics to the table, and barring one angry libertarian who got really angry that another player had a backstory where his player became homeless without it being his fault ("Nobody ever becomes homeless without making a conscious decision to do so.") the bullshit that hyperautists insert int my games has not been politics, and I've been DMing for a long time.

Then again, I run mostly in-person games, so maybe that makes a difference.

>>54669639
maybe he understand the difference between play and reality?

>>54668417
>>roars "FEEL THE BERN" irl as loud as she can when she uses dragon breath

This made me chuckle softly at least. Bonus points if your Dragonborn is named Bernie or Bernard

>>54669830
>where his player became homeless
Fuck, should read CHARACTEr, not PLAYER.

>>54669346
Are you me? Or at least in my group?
Does the trans dude play a robot and have a stupid name?

>>54669389
>"Megacorps Didn Do Nuffin Wrong" Shadowrun game


Well, I mean, the world of Shadowrun is actually pretty nice as long as you're a SINner and don't mind the soul crushing of the service industry. More bread and circuses than ever before

>>54669826
I think I'd qualify for that, but I might be butchering the lore by playing them as upright, socially-competent kobold Bedouins.

Players with different degrees of historic or strategic knowledge may point out or suggest changes, or make jokes at the historical inaccuracies. They are bloody mercenaries with not an ounce of goodness in them and only in it for the money and power, though.

>>54669830
Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, Anon.

I do doubt it happens much IRL- People tend not to want to bring politics into a situation where they might face actual confrontation. But I've had it happen a few times in online games- Which are, given that I live in a rural area with the nearest game store being like 50 miles away- the only type of game I can reasonably play.

I feel the lack of a physical element makes people feel like they can do this shit. In real life, they have to awkwardly shuffle out and maybe even end friendships if they do this. Online, they can just never log back in if they get ousted from a group.

>>54669809

It's also a World of Warcraft thing.

It's to the point where I wish orcs were just bloodthirsty subhuman savages and weren't boring-ass noble savages acting as stand-ins for black people who are just trying to get along by raping and pillaging the privileged races.

>>54669524
>no reason for it

She had to assume a male gender for a cultural reason. In her tribe, all warriors are male gendered, regardless of sex. Female Male Warriors are not looked down upon, though it is hard for them to sire children.

>>54669826
yeah anthros and exotic races are pure cringe material

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>>54669619

>dwarven conspiracy.
>not a gnome conspiracy.

There are enough roleplayers in my flgs to maintain several different RP groups in parallel. When irreconcilable differences of politics become apparent, we just shuffle around.

I don't typically end up at the social justify table, and they don't cause trouble outside of their own little circle.

>>54669883
honestly thats how I'd play them.

your probably a good dragonborn roleplayer anon i'm just jaded.

>>54669844
I thought this at first, but he did this every fucking game, even when GMing:
>Runs a not!StarWars game
>We land on an agrarian planet
>Only humans there
>All of us are aliens
>Humans are fine with us because "at least y'all ain't niggers"

>>54669899
The greater fucktard theory still very much applies even if Penny Arcade has become awful.

>>54669516
>Reddit stutter
>falling for bait this hard
>my man
My man you have to go back

A guy at my LGS constantly dresses half feminine and very loudly complains about how uncomfortable his thong is during long sitting sessions.

>>54669921
arcanum gnomes, do you have that pic?

>>54669934
>>All of us are aliens
>>Humans are fine with us because "at least y'all ain't niggers"

It's awful but I fucking chuckled

>>54669934
that'd be pretty fucking funny if it was like a one time thing, or a voided joke line.

>the south rose again
>it rose so high it went to space

>>54669950
Same.

Apparently that's what happens when you visit Planet West Virginia.

>>54669960

Isn't that basically starcraft?

>>54669941
>reddit stutter

Not that anon but I refuse to let you give reddit the fuccboi stutter. This is like that stupid reddit spacing shit. What the fuck is next? Reddit typeface? Reddit Yotsuba B?

>>54669964
>planet west virginia

But West Virginia was part of the Union...

Or do I have my Virginia's mixed up

>>54669943
Roll Diplomacy to suggest for a fully femenine outfit.
Then roll one more time to get boypussy

>>54669973
I find it no accident that the Dominion rounded up it's criminals, political dissidents, murderers, rapists, televangelists and general scum; shipped them across the galaxy, and they and their descendants all speak with a southern accent and almost immediately start a new confederacy.

>>54669976
west virginia was formed when it held a Secessionist Convention to break away from the Confederate state of virgina and rejoin the union

so you're right

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>>54669899
>Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, Anon.
But when you're a socially functioning adult, who's been interacting with other socially functioning adults for your entire adult life, behavior that you haven't experienced and that even the most basic intuition puts in the "severely aberrant" category, can be assumed to be RARE... not nonexistent, but not common enough for all these bullshit and poorly written greentexts to be true.

When your intuition tells you a story like this is bullshit, it's pretty safe to say "That's not how human beings act... that might be how some people tweet or tumble or tumble or whatever, but if you think these stories are real, you've clearly spent much more time interacting with faceless text than actual human beings."

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>>54669947

Which one of them?

>>54669928
Thanks. I know what you mean about most beastman/dragon-x RPers though. I feel self-conscious playing dragon-related stuff just because of how badly everyone else does it.

But my real magical realm is centaurs.

>>54669976
>Reddit arrows
YHTGB

>>54669992
Maybe they have a flagship called The Union Jack?

>>54669943
Tell him to stop wearing underwear if it makes him that uncomfortable

>>54670021
the one that narrates how they became filthy rich and kidnapped the queen/princess of some kingdom.

>>54669014
But wanting equal rights (including parental rights for men) is literally what feminism is.
MRAs for some reason put themselves as opposed to feminism, or think that women are trying to take away their rights or something, when really feminism is about freeing all genders from oppressive gender roles.
It's feminist to be concerned with the higher suicide/depression rate of men, it's feminist to be concerned with how fathers are treated as less important than mothers, it's feminist to be concerned with how male rape survivors are often overlooked or disbelieved, it's feminist to be concerned with how men are pressured to not be feminine and to fit in with stereotypical masculine gender roles.

Feminists only hate MRAs because MRAs think it's a zero-sum battle of the sexes and define themselves in opposition to feminism and women in general. Plus they often try to shut down women speaking about the rights of women by complaining about the difficulties men face but then don't seem to do much actual activism about their supposed causes.
Us men need to find places to talk about the issues that face us due to our gender without hijacking conversations about women's rights and turning it into a competition.
We need to support women and in turn they will support us.
That's why I'm a feminist, because we are all in this together.

>>54670016
but thats what I'm saying, anon.

That's how people tweet and tumble or whatever, but its safe to say that type of online behavior is easily carried over into other virtual interactions.

I feel these stories can be easily divided: If it was a real life scenario, it's highly unlikely- Enough to reasonably doubt. If it's an online scenario, it seems much more likely: But I have bias there, because this type of player actually is a type I've encountered with relatively common occurrence in online games.

I doubt all the stories are true, and I'm sure some are hyperbole for entertainment value, but the idea of dismissing all of them out of hand is sort of foolish.

>>54670046
b-but the boypussy anon! don't you want >>54669943 to get laid?

>>54670065
Can't tell if this is satire or not.

>>54669992

Letting a bunch of people called border reavers immigrate and populate half the country with their desendents turns out to have consequences.

Rounding up those descendents later and blasting them into space isn't going to turn out remarkably differently.

>>54669603
Yeah, reflecting on this a little more.

>How has social justice affected your campaigns?

We tend to do shit like this >>54669809

Our monsters tend to not be totally outside the realm of reason, unless they're absolutely driven by bloodlust and animalistic instinct. Our party is usually pretty non-murderhobo-y, so there's usually one or two PCs that would rather befriend or bargain with a group of monsters rather than slaughter them. We also don't tend to do "completely evil" races. We've had sympathetic drow and undead devoted to good and justice. Hell, we had a cleric who reformed a demon and ended up marrying her.

>Not sure if that's a social justice thing or just a side effect of Monster Musume becoming widespread. Probably a mix of both.
Speaking for us, we're degenerate weebs along with being liberal, so yeah, probably both.

I play a Fire Genasi cleric with pure black skin.

All of my fellow players in the campaign are huge racists and constantly call me "nigger" and shit. Sometimes they complain about black people.

It got really old really fast.

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>>54670057

I have one of the pages.

>>54669976
>But West Virginia was part of the Union

That doesn't mean they aren't racist as hell. It just means they aren't a bunch of traitors.

>>54669829

You assume I have money to exchange

Yeah, we have a SJW in our group. Naturally, that means there's some things we can't say around her but honestly she's pretty reasonable unless you say some real stupid shit.

The real problem in our group is the red-pill motherfucker who's always starting fights and forcing his veiwpoints into everything.
God forbid you even mention a 40k faction that isn't humans, Orks, or Khorne.

>>54670083
>asking him to uncover his boypussy means anon gets no boypussy
Clearly you are new to this

>>54670057
>kidnapped the queen/princess of some kingdom

Queen. And then they had her raped to death by Ogres.

>>54670065
I'm other anon. Your point it's valid, both sexes need eachother for the continuity of the species. But at this point of disinformation, demonization and scapegoating I believe that what you stand for in no longer important. Everyone wants to be correct not to do what they stand for. Not saying that there ain't nobody doing stuff.

>>54670093
It's literally not. Maybe some feminists don't pay much attention to men's issues, and obviously there are various forms of feminism (including a few extreme people who do hate men who call themselves feminists) but feminism is at its heart about equal rights, so any true feminist would have no opposition to issues such as equal parental rights, and in fact should support it.

>>54670158
that one!

>>54670177
>feminism is at its heart about equal rights

In the sense that the civil war was about states rights, sure.

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>>54669682
I need that lizardman out of his pants

>>54670157
instruct me

>>54667777
I've seen a few SJW games on Roll20 but have never encountered any in games myself, except for one arguable case where a chick acted scoffed a little when somebody at the table made a joke about feminism once.

>>54670195

I regret posting it

>>54670143
What about Dark Angels or Sisters (I like "repenting" for my sins)?

I play GURPS so SJWs aren't common because SJWs only play shitty and/or mainstream systems..

>>54669202
Scifi has a lot to offer for that.

>>54670065
Cancer
>>54670065
Get
>>54670065
Out

>>54670177
protip: you're arguing with an idiot,
just ignore this thread

>>54670244
you're a wise one anon

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>>54669787
You know, I don't really get shit like this.
Like, shitty things happened in real life. Why get upset when there's shitty things that happen in-game?

I'm reminded of those threads about the religious dude who got offended because his GM portrayed a corrupt church in his campaign.

Like, fuck man, you're getting upset at an opportunity to be a hero. It's a roleplaying game. If there's something shitty going on, try to fix it as a PC. Work towards freeing the slaves and outlawing slavery. Join the church and try to reform it from within, or start your own inquisition against its corrupting forces. Be the change you want to see.

I'm betting the story is completely fabricated, but I'm biting anyway.

>>54670065
See he gets the real the struggle guys! We can all be cuc..i-I mean feminists to fight the good fight!

>>54670177
>>54670065
>any true feminist

Found your problem. SJW's aren't feminists, and egalitarian feminism died in the 90's. Modern reactionary feminists don't want solutions, they want someone to blame for their problems, real or imagined.

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>>54670201
>Drop lines that can easily be interpreted as flirting, but have enough leeway to potentially be unintentional ("Jeez, if your thong is making you so uncomfortable, why don't you just take it off?", stuff like that)
>be just a little bit too handsy, sit closer than you normally would
>continue until he's so wrapped up in lewd thoughts that he blushes and glances at you
>move in for the kill and be direct with how you feel about him
>claim boypussy

It's that easy. It's how you'd get me, at least

>>54670190
Well obviously there are various historical and social factors that influenced the movement.
But the point is that most feminists would agree that it's about equal rights and freeing people from gender roles, so when presented with the issues that face men (in a context where they aren't trying to discuss issues that face women) they should agree that work needs to be done in those areas.

I know 4chan tends to think feminists are mostly rather extreme, but in reality most are quite reasonable people. People on the internet that aren't in a group just tend to see the loudest, most ridiculous examples of that group.

Men's issues don't generally get much of a look at by feminists because most female feminists are too busy trying to solve the issues affecting women. So I think some of us men need to start stepping up and try to solve our problems without putting down women or making it an us vs. them at the same time.

>>54670072
>If it's an online scenario, it seems much more likely
I feel like MAYBE if you're dealing with text-only online games (which if you are, my condolences.) Even the humanization that comes with skype/discord tends to enforce basic human courtesy.

Hell, this is coming from someone VERY liberal, but politics, just like ERP, are one of the things that you need to plainly lay bare as a part of the campaign if it's going to be a part of the campaign.

Basic rule of thumb: if it's inappropriate for a dinner party, without it being the explicit theme of the dinner party, it's inappropriate for a campaign without it being the explicit theme of the campaign.

>>54667777
You're one of those creepy GMs that has the female player's character raped by the end of each session, aren't you?

>>54670316
You're really only looking at the most extreme examples, most feminists aren't really like that, at least from my point of view.

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OP here.

I'll admit I made this thread out of boredom, and it was just a preliminary test of my stealth drives when it comes to posting bait threads. I was not sincerely interested in what a bunch of grognards had to say about social justice.

I have come to the conclusion that SJW boogeyman threads mean guaranteed replies.

That being said, I have never gamed with an SJW, but I probably wouldn't mind doing so if they weren't insufferable about it. If social justice really needs to be a running theme in your fantasy campaign, either you or your players need to mature a bit.

Thank you.

>>54667777
>How has social justice affected your campaigns?
It hasn't because I don't condone feels over facts
>Have you ever had to make concessions to appear more politically correct?
I refuse, see point one above
>Have you ever gamed with an SJW?
None that have stuck around for more than one session because of points one and two, above

>>54670332
Your fucking degenerate and deserve the gas chamber. Men are made to fuck things. Women are made to be fucked. GOTTTTTT DAMMMMMNNNNNN!

>>54670280
>wanting equal rights means wanting another guy to fuck your wife/girlfriend
>muh irrefutable logic

>>54669389
>how to kill your child's creativity, by Joe P. Liberal
>buy it in stores or on Amazon
What a cunt. He even looks like a cunt.

>>54669976
>Posting on reddit 4chan

>>54670383
Troof, my mangolorian

>>54670418
more like how to teach children to actually reason through the shit they say

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>>54670332
thanks anon

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>>54667777
>Have you ever gamed with an SJW?

I live in the South.

>>54670365
Your point of view is deeply skewed.

>>54670416
>implying any sjws or feminists care at all about equal rights

>>54670235
>Sisters
GW ploy to be SJW friendly

>>54669976
West Virginia went for the Union, yeah.

However politically they very quickly joined the conservatives in the South after the civil war.

>>54669389
It kind of robs you of credibility when you're openly stating that you think a given group of people are stupid to begin with when you're accusing them of something.

Like, maybe you're right, or maybe you're misrepresenting the truth to make libertarians look bad, or maybe you're in plenty of games where the players are influenced by their belief systems when roleplaying, but only consider it "inserting their bullshit" when libertarians do it. Who's to say?

>>54670383
>That being said, I have never gamed with an SJW, but I probably wouldn't mind doing so if they weren't insufferable about it.
I always assumed the insufferableness was implied with the term "SJW". It was a term for someone who is insufferable about social justice rather than someone who simply values social justice but knows how to actually function around other people.

>>54670416
>Using a dead meme to make your argument seem much more reputable.
>Most male feminists are called 'allies', are the odd ones out in debate, walking statues, creeps, doormats, pseudo-intellectuals, douchebags, etc.

>>54670397
You should probably shut your dick-holster. Or keep it open. Whatever.

>>54670467
I'm sorry.

>>54670519
Keeping his dick holster open is probably the only way he gets any sex.

>>54670444
He conflated obedience with traffic laws (there to keep you safe on the road and to collect tax money) with obedience to parents (so parents have an easier time with their kid).

He's a fucking cunt pseudo-intellectual.

>>54667777
>Be first DnD group
>Half can't make it becuase finals
>DM does freeform rpg instead
>Get 10 points for character creation
>Make luchador
>Mostly Str and Chr plus hatred of druglords who killed mi Familia
>Last item: Authentic Greencard
>First thing DM does is say it is fake
>Gotta work for Donald Trump and the Space Pimp (tm) to get it back
>sent to underwater druglord lair to recover rent for Trump and Space-Hoes for Space Pimp
>fight drug lord
>get stabbed with drug syringe
>get high
>steal druglords shark
>use it as a weapon to rob McDonald's
>Get deported

Donald Trump's girlfriend kept tying to ruin the fun and keep everyone in check but it was otherwise pretty neat.

>>54670467
>From Tennessee.
>See another southerner.
>KIN DETECTED.

>>54670546
He's a comedian making a joke. He's not trying to dispense Ultimate Wisdom.

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>>54670528
It's Atlanta, so it's not too bad.

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summer will be over soon

>>54670564
>from Tennessee
>sEE ANOTHER TENNESSEAN
>KIN DETECTED EVEN HARDER

>>54670564
I'm so glad you found your cousin, but do remember that this is a gaming board, not a dating site.

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>>54668954

>>54670578
>things that hurt my fees are pol
I'm sorry for your disability.

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>>54670383
Insufferability is implied with the term SJW, otherwise they're just liberal

>>54670568
You're right. Please provide me a link to his work so I can properly judge for myself.

>>54670489
How?

>>54670628
Go google it yourself. Its what I'd have to do.

>>54670592
>ALERT ALERT
>YANKEES IN THE BASE

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>>54670578
We're almost out of the woods, just hang on a bit longer.

>>54668954
Nice b8

>>54670581
Tennessee-bro your my god.

>>54670638
That's a good question. I've heard him explain it like 3 times now and I'm still not 100% sure

>people unironically believe in 2017 after all the shit that they've pulled and continue to pull that modern feminism gives a single fuck about equality
Far too busy trying to censor art they don't like, thoughts they don't like, character assassinating people they don't like/anyone who dares to disagree with them, manipulating and outright lying about statistics, and deflecting their own personal failures of being fat, unemployable, or what have you on the patriarchy boogeyman. It's a shame too because they've managed to completely discredit a cause that at its core is just and still needs to accomplish a few goals such as workplace inequity/harassment

>>54670516
> the old feminist-men-are-only-pretending-in-order-to-get-laid meme
Contrary to popular opinion men aren't always ruled by their dicks. And anyone who says otherwise actually does hate men and does more damage to men's rights than feminists do.

>>54670681
Wait, so having religiously devout women whom all of which are all their periods in combat roles is somehow catering to SJW's.

wut?

>>54670686
>modern feminism
That's the problem. Third wave feminisn is all about female superiority. Classic feminism was about equality. It's just sjws coopting something legit to make themselves seem right.

>>54670711
Sorry, let me clarify.

Just pointing out that their existence must be sad.

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>>54670658
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O4nC-lbu1c

>>54670686
>censor art they don't like
Protip: saying you think someone is shitty and should be ashamed because you think something they made was shitty and shameful isn't "censorship." That is in-fact utilizing freedom of speech.

Protip 2: You too are allowed to criticize things you don't like. That's how freedom of speech works.

That's not a conspiracy or censorship.

When people on /tg/ say "have you tried not playing D&D" is that us trying to "censor" D&D? No. Grow up and learn what words mean.

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No.
No.
And yes?

Like half of my group is what most of 4chan would call a "SWJ", but shit like this
>>54668417
Never happens. At least not without trolls involved.

Our group is as liberal as it gets, but we don't whine at any content in game as long as it makes sense within the setting.
There's sexism, racism and all other kinds of bigotry around but instead of bitching about it, my players either accept it as part of the world, or try to fight against the injustices like a proper adventurer/hero would.

The screeching, overly offended swj is just as much as an internet strawman meme as a the That Guy literally masturbating under the gaming table to the guro porn he is describing to his group. Doesn't happen in reality, because any hypothetical person mentally disturbed enough to do that will never get a group to begin with

People like OP are SJWs through the political looking glass, which is why they obsess over them so much. It's the same shit with a different hat.

They're all fucking impotent, alienated and marginal: left, right and center. The outrage they give and receive let them feel close to someone since nobody in real life wants to deal with their shit.

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>>54670784
DINGDINGDING
We have a winner.

Most of my core group of friends and I have pretty vastly different political views, and once we played a game where we all roleplayed political dissidents with extreme caricatures of our actual ideologies who were putting aside their differences to take down the Centrist government (picture Jéb + Hillary). Was pretty fun.

"inserting politics" into games is only bad if not everyone is interested in doing that and it's one or two people trying to force it.

Also politics are pretty intricately tied to ethics and morality, so it can be said that it's impossible to run a game without some political influence, it's just that sometimes those politics are seen as sort of the "default morality" because they're the social norms IRL. Take >>54669603, "I mean, we've had campaigns where we've fought for the freedom of oppressed peoples, along with dealing with racism among the different fantasy races, but those are pretty normal staples in fantasy games". The reason this is true is because most all first world cultures generally disapprove of what the average person would call "racism", and there is a perception that in the past this was not the case. The commonality of this trope is the result of our culture, and thus our politics. But again, this isn't seen as political by most people because it's normalized to the point of being thought of as the "default opinion" by many. Whereas an element of an RPG based on some other, less common or mainstream worldview, like the antagonists explicitly representing the capitalist class and the goal of the campaign being to end the exploitation of the Proletariat, would be seen as "inserting politics", even though objectively it's no more political than racism being portrayed as evil.

I'd like to stress that I'm not endorsing or denouncing any of the views I've mentioned.

>>54670711
I wonder what gay male feminists are in it for, then?

>>54670332
Goddamnit I shouldn't be this erect.

>>54670812
More gay rights.

>>54667777
I'd fuck that lizard

>>54670686
>>54670727
>All people of X group are a hivemind
Remember, the dumbest and angriest people are always the loudest.
To see it from the other side I know that there are RMAs out there who seriously are concerned with the specific inequalities men face, while still respecting women and wanting their problems solved as well.
But due to douchebags yelling really loudly, all the general populous thinks of when hearing MRA is "sexist old man loser angry at women"

>>54670564
>mfw my Tennessean brethern must never know I'm secretly a Social Justice Rogue
>drink more Jack that the brackish waters ah tha cumberland river may again flow through my veins

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>>54670803
Not an SJW, see picture related, and I don't obsess over SJWs.

See >>54670383

>>54667777
Its affected my campaign in that sometimes weird socially dead fedoralords in our flgs bitch about feminists and annoy literally everyone.

>>54670851
Fuklaw is that you?

>>54669809
Just once I'd like to see some middle ground, monsters may be misunderstood and misrepresented, but that doesn't mean that co-existance is always possible because of the vastly gulf of nature and nurture that separates them from the rest. Then again most people on /tg/ seem to hate grey morality in their fantasy games, so maybe I should just learn to live without it.

>>54670016
You are making largely unfounded assumptions. First off selection bias alone would seem to indicate that most of these would be true, since you don't see those who don't reply to this thread you don't see the ratio of people who report such things versus those who have never encountered such things. This alone would at least could explain everything. Secondly most people's social group is comprised of people like them due to various quirks of association and choice. You can't generalize behavior of all peoples from your anecdotal experience based on your own social group which is likely to be strongly selected against what you call "Severely Aberrant". Such types are invariably less rare an encounter for many people on /tg/ who tend to be of nearly collage age and tend to interact with a more randomized sample and the privileged class in which this peculiar ideology has taken root.

>>54670851
Jesus fucking Christ, is that you Claude? I know you have that goddamned hat.

>>54670784
>Doesn't happen in reality,

Like how fucking sheltered are the prove who say this? Political discourse across the West is degenerating into some sort of horrifying constant nuclear war and you fucks still try and play off the phenomenon as imaginary.

Astonishingly enough, not everyone in the world thinks like you. Not everyone on your side thinks like you. Just because you're a liberal and also a sensible human being doesn't mean all liberals everywhere are sensible.

I know you for sure wouldn't deny /pol/ exists just because you happen to know some sane level headed conservatives, and they're way way less relevant than the social justice movement.

>>54669603

>I myself am probably about three steps away from what people would consider "SJW". Except I don't flagellate myself for being a straight white cis male or hate other people for being straight/white/cis/male. It's sort of the opposite of progressive when you hate people or yourself for being born the "wrong" race/sex/orientation/gender/whatever the fuck.

Thank you for being a sane human being.

I am pretty neutral when it comes to political stuff like this, but it pisses me off like nothing else when some "progressive/liberal" fuck starts bashing or invalidating people for no concrete reason other than them being straight/white/cis/male. Fucking blind, self-righteous hypocrites. Disgustingly stupid. Goddamn I am mad now.

>>54670895
>nurture

Well, it is a fantasy game I guess.

>>54670686
Callout culture is shit yeah, but many feminists see that and there seems to be a growing backlash against it.

Shutting up racists and misogynists for being racists and misogynists doesn't seem like much of a loss though, given that we've had the same countless arguments thousands of times and have come to the general conclusion as a society that racism and sexism are bad. Even 4chan knows to not to engage with /pol/.

Most experts in statistics seem to agree with the feminists, but of course there will always be some people who manipulate, lie or just don't understand statistics, but that's not limited to feminists. All sides do it, its human nature to be generally shit at stats.

I generally prefer the term Kyriachy rather than Patriarchy since it recognises that women aren't the only group that are oppressed by the current structures of power. People are also oppressed on racial, religious, sexual orientation and inter-sectional lines. Even men are harmed by the Kyriarchy/Patriarchy due to pressures to conform to gender roles. It is all interconnected in very complicated ways. People who very successful can recognise that there structures of power that statistically benefit some groups more than others. It's not just the fat and unemployable that are feminists. It's just in the statistics.

Finally, just because some people abuse the movement to bully others, or have corrupted it in maladaptive ways, doesn't mean modern feminism is a lost cause or without merit. There are definitely good people there, you just have to recognise the arseholes are representative of the ideal.

The token SJW at my tables plays a genderfluid half-elf bard, but SJ bullshit hasn't crept into the game yet.

A few of the people at my Rogue Trader table are /pol/tards, and they're a much more gregarious group.

>>54667777
Yep.
>Play in a campaign
>Your typical medieval fantasy kingdom
>DM mentions that marriages tend to be arranged, so all marriage is basically about procreation
>Nobody even playing a gay character, so it doesn't come up at the beginning
>Have big campaign, mainly fighting undead
>Big Evil Lich was behind it, have huge climactic fight at the end of campaign
>Beat him, save the day
>Head back to the capital, there's a big celebration in our honor
>Everyone gets trampled to death by a rampaging gay pride parade

>>54670946
Was your GM Eric Idle?

>>54670851
he's invoking the hot new "le right-wing sjw" meme, which is an extension of the wildly popular "horseshoe theory" meme, which despite being shown to be wrong by people across the range of political opinions time and time again remains popular. It seems fairly rational if you don't think to hard about it, and it makes Centards feel smug while at the same time letting them group all of their opponents together (Centards are almost universally egotistical and lazy by nature). Because of this, the "horseshoe theory" meme will likely stick around for some time.

>>54670946
>arranged marriages tend to be about procreation and not political (w/e that may be)
What setting do you play for this idiocy?

>>54670895
>You are making largely unfounded assumptions. First off selection bias alone would seem to indicate that most of these would be true, since you don't see those who don't reply to this thread you don't see the ratio of people who report such things versus those who have never encountered such things. This alone would at least could explain everything. Secondly most people's social group is comprised of people like them due to various quirks of association and choice. You can't generalize behavior of all peoples from your anecdotal experience based on your own social group which is likely to be strongly selected against what you call "Severely Aberrant". Such types are invariably less rare an encounter for many people on /tg/ who tend to be of nearly collage age and tend to interact with a more randomized sample and the privileged class in which this peculiar ideology has taken root.
>All this rationalization to try and prove that a straw/bogey-man exist, when basic social awareness and human intuition will tell you this is all bullshit wish-fulfillment greentext about games /tg/ doesn't play.
and that's why you're an autist

>>54670065
>[x] is literally what feminism is
No, that's one formulation of only one subset (or if you will sub movement) of feminist thought. For the most part modern feminist movements are much less invested in broad egalitarianism rather than advancing the interest of their own sex within society as a whole regardless of how it affects others or the truth value of their accusations.

Not that I particularly fault them for it, everyone has a vested interest in their own advancement and wishes to get a leg up, but you really ought not to believe in such empty rhetoric as "it's only about equal rights!" when that is clearly not what is going on with third wave feminism

>Feminists only hate MRAs because MRAs think it's a zero-sum battle of the sexes
Well, it basically is. The whole "tide raises all boats" idea is nice in theory, but rarely if ever plays out that way. If there's a winner there has to be a loser.

>>54669686
>You're staying true to [...] Tolkien.

No, he isn't. Tolkien hated the idea of a whole race of people being "naturally" evil.

>>54670946
An amusing reversal

>>54670989
>NUH UH, fuck your logic you fucking autist!
Wow, I am simply awed by your argumentative prowess. You could get a debate scholarship and go far in life based on those skills sonny.

>>54671040
Yet the entire race of orcs and urukhai were created by pure evil, for pure evil and were pure evil.

>>54670807
Aren't you kind of muddling politics and culture there?

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>>54670974
Wow dude you sound like you really need to try some redpills.

>>54671041
>1 out of three people got the joke
Well, can't say I expected better, /tg/. Or /pol/. Or whoever the fuck I'm talking to.

>>54671099
Cry moar redditor

>>54670851
Fuck off nazi punks

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>>54671094
>"How can one expect a State like that to hold together?"
>-Leader of a State that couldn't hold together

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>>54670383
>stealth

>>54670989
>basic social awareness and human intuition will tell you this is all bullshit
This is basically "you're obviously wrong and I don't have to explain why because everyone else obviously agrees with me".

His argument seems pretty ironclad to me. As an example, we all know furries definitely are real and do engage in many of the cringeshit they're purported to. But try telling even the relatively mundane stuff to someone who's far removed from any sort of weird stuff like this, and 9 times out of 10 they just flat out won't believe you. Hell, I've been here and on similar sites for coming on a decade and I still hear about shit that makes me think "well surely no one could be that weird/retarded/etc." only to find that the group in question is very real.

I understand that it's reasonable to assume that turbe SJWs are just an internet phantasm, appearing only occasionally IRL but being greatly overinflated in apparent size. But I can tell you personally, they definitely do exist and are not all that rare. Granted, my testimony is only anecdotal, but your "argument" was "the average person hasn't ever met any of these people, I swear", which is essentially anecdotal evidence without the evidence.

>>54671071

Tolkien didn't believe that and he wrote the books, so I guess it's your headcanon versus Word of God.

>54671114
>Make joke using well-established /tg/ meme
>hurr durr reddit
Not even worth a (you).

>>54671197
>As an example, we all know furries definitely are real and do engage in many of the cringeshit they're purported to.

Oh, oh! I love this one!

What sort of cringe shit do furries do that other groups don't, too? I gotta hear this one.

Made them more funny because people will reference that kind of shit ironically from time to time.

Even my hard left friends, the kind who had a big cry together over Hillary losing, think SJW stuff is insane

>>54671222
Ive got the greentext somewhere that you condensed down. Overreacting to something barely a dozen of us will remember is pretty reddit desu

>>54671206
Thats the point. Preached one thing and wrote another. None of the races in his work were created naturally so for him to insert his own politics into the narrative is hypocritical when he can't even follow the lore he created.

>>54671094
Oh, I've taken my fair share, though like anyone I still have a ways to go. Though I don't usually bring up explicit politics outside of /pol/ unless a thread has descended irreversibly into the topic already.

Plus, my post above is about as much of my powerlevel I'll even bother to reveal anymore outside a few select boards. Eventually I just got too annoyed with people telling others to go back to /pol/, not because they were discussing politics, but because they were le /pol/ notsee raycis bogey man.

>>54671263

Anything Tolkien said > opinions of random goons on 4chan

>>54671292
>anything he wrote >anything he said
Checkmate atheist.

>>54667777
>How has social justice affected your campaigns?
It hasn't
>Have you ever had to make concessions to appear more politically correct?
No
>Have you ever gamed with an SJW?
No

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>>54671268
Yeah, fuck those guys.

Me? I just like to collect silly hats.

>>54671306

Nothing in his writing states "orcs are objectively evil from birth."

>Chequemate liberal

To be perfectly honest I'm having opposite problem in my group. one of my friends decided to start you know talking about sjws and such problem in my group. One of my friends decided to start in no talking about SJ W's and such as sort of a joke thing. It was kind of funny at first but then he just kept doing it so we asked him to stop, but he wasn't the problem. Our two most problem players in the group are a degenerate munchkin who also is a really bad misanthropic misogynist and the other is a non-denominational Christian fuck head and the other is a non denominational Christian fuckhead who is pretentious beyond all reason and so indoctrinated by his parents that he's so far into the Christian right that he can't see his own left hand. So what happened is since this other guy made it"ok" two talk about make fun of this shit these two have decided that every game day is time for them to bitch about their personal Hang-Ups and political views. The pretentious Christian also tried to insert his bizarre ideologies interest sci-fi setting that a friend of ours is trying to come up with Homebrew. Our friend asked us if we wanted anything in particular to come out of this sci-fi setting. He was basically asking our opinion on aspects of the world. One of the things that I brought up was Anon human-centric non constant War footing universe. I'm just a little burnt out on 40K. other friends said he'd like to see multiple forms of faster-than-light travel as if different species came up with different ways of doing it. The pretentious Christian asked if we can have a setting where as all the different species of the Galaxy come together they realize that they have a single very similar religious Doctrine and that ultimately there all the different species of the galaxy come together they realize that they have a single very similar religious doctrine and that ultimately there are clear signs of one true creator that permeates the entire galaxy.

>>54671350
I recall in the Silmarillion somewhere about morgoths creation of the orcs. He took elves or something and twisted them so they became the dark beings called orcs. The hate for man and elf was bred into their corrupted hearts for all time. I could be wrong as i read that along time ago

>>54671028
It may be zero sum in the sense that people receiving the benefits of oppression no longer receive those benefits, but that's not a bad thing. Why should we feel sympathy for the slave master forced to free his slaves? Or even the ones who didn't take part directly in slavery but none-the-less received benefits from its use.

The fact is, white men statistically being slightly worse off than they are now isn't going to really hurt them. And I'm saying that as a white man. But even if more equality means men are worse off in some ways, they are better off in others. As I said before, the liberation of women from gender roles means the liberation of men from gender roles as well. It means we don't have to fear seeming feminine, we aren't forced to play sports when we'd rather play traditional games, we aren't required to marry and have kids (particularly if we're gay), we don't have to be the sole provider if we do have kids and thus can actually spend time with them. So while we haven't quite got there with every issue, with the influence of feminism in our recent history, we are free-er than we ever have been before.

So in actual fact, everyone wins when feminism wins.
Thus while many feminists may not actively seem to be concerned with broad egalitarianism (although intersectional feminism that focuses on the interesections of gender, sexual orientation, race and class is a growing subsection of the broader feminist movement) they generally take it that such broader egalitarianism follows from combating sexism and securing the place of women (and others in the case of intersectional feminism) in society.

Still, I think there is a place for people who focus and highlight the issues that affect men in society in the feminist movement. Seeing as ensuring rights for women is supposed to free men as well, solving issues that face men should also help with the issues that face women.

>>54671085
That was kind of the point I was trying to make, politics are an extension of culture. The current political polarization of the Western world reflects the deeper polarization of worldviews i.e culture.

To explain a little further, it seems self-explanatory that someone would base their opinions on how to best run a country on how they believe the world operates. to try and tie this back in to /tg/ related things, if a culture in a setting believed that pigeons were sacred to their god and that it would become angry if you killed one, you could probably expect them to make killing pigeons illegal in their society, and possibly try to enact similar policies in another society where they were a large enough minority to have political influence. If yo believe normal people are pushed by circumstance or maybe the inherent evil of the world to commit crime, you might favor a criminal policy that focuses on rehabilitation rather than punishment.

Basically, people find solutions to problems based on what they believe causes those problems, which is based on what they believe about the world as well as how well they understand it. T

here's also kind of a corollary to this model that a policy that successfully addresses a problem must necessarily be more in line with the objective nature of reality/human nature than a competing but unsuccessful policy. This seems to be true sometimes but it isn't always so simple, so I wouldn't endorse it as strongly as everything else I've said.

>slowly realizing there are posters here who are hyper liberals who insist liberal politics need to be a part of games

troubling.jpg

>>54671457
>implying you'll ever game with, let alone meet anyone from here

Shiggydiggy

>group member plays neutral good character
>can make him really riled up by offhandedly stating that a character's gay or black, even if it doesn't come up ever again
>goes out of his way to murder minority characters
>gets upset when anyone tells him he's playing out of alignment

I think this is the rare occasion where a little more socjus in my group wouldn't hurt.

>>54671457
>slowly realising that there are Americans/westerners who don't realise that they are actually a remarkably liberal country in the history of the world and thus every game of their's most likely contains liberal politics
Americans need to look up the definition of liberalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

>>54671367
>all the different species of the galaxy come together they realize that they have a single very similar religious doctrine and that ultimately there are clear signs of one true creator that permeates the entire galaxy
I've seen this idea and similar concepts discussed before, I think it's kind of an interesting idea. What's your problem with it?

>>54671491
Why go out of your way to describe character traits that mean nothing to the game?

>>54671412

Posts like this make me long for sharia law.

>>54671515
He'll explicitly ask what the character looks like or what their orientation is. If I don't just flat out OOC tell him, then he'll keep driving on this gay inquisition thing. So now I've learned to always answer that no one's gay and everyone's white even so in areas that should have more blacks. I'd kick him out if the rest of the group wasn't such good friends with him.

>>54671503
You can't just tell them that directly though.

>>54671580
He's a tool and you're an admirable anon to put up with it for so long

>>54671573
I honestly feel sorry for you dude. Strict interpretations of Sharia law doesn't seem that great for the men either.

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>>54670578

>>54671412
You are arguing from the idea that it is the unduly privileged who lose out, this is not generally the case. Generally those who already enjoy a position of privilege regardless of how they acquired it are difficult to dislodge. Further the people who stand to gain are usually those who are relatively privileged themselves as they are the ones who most benefit from any type of revolution. The people who tend to lose out in these cases usually are those who are toeing the line as it is, those who are disadvantaged already, the downtrodden and the dysfunctional, a group I have worked with in the past. If this was about a small cadre of elites losing out I would have much less issue with it, however as I have seen it that tends to almost never be the case.

>white men statistically being slightly worse off than they are now isn't going to really hurt them
When you render it as a statistic you lose sight of the human costs, averages can be deceiving.

>better off in others
According to you and your conceptions of better off, not everyone would agree. This applies to my arguments as well, however I believe am thinking more in terms of losses which are mostly regarded culturally as bad, rather than (IMO) mixed blessings like being free of gendered behavior stigma or being able to do things like play TGs and not have kids(something which is actually more related to western culture and rational choice theory instead of feminism).

>So in actual fact, everyone wins when feminism wins.
I have heard similar rhetoric from all manner of ideologues from capitalists to communists and everything in between. I simply do not find it convincing.

>take it that such broader egalitarianism follows from combating sexism and securing the place of women
Again I personally do not see that as a flowing from the former actions.

> solving issues that face men should also help with the issues that face women.
Perhaps, but I'm not so sure any solution will ever help everyone.

>>54670899
For the record, I did entirely make up that story. Nice quads tho.

>>54671412
>we don't have to be the sole provider if we do have kids and thus can actually spend time with them.
Just as an off topic point, this is a case of an argument which I believe is deceptive, even with two working adults (an arrangement which does go back beyond most feminism in the underclasses), I believe* modern parents who work both now have less time with their offspring than single breadwinners used to in the past, though I don't think that this actually has much to do with feminism (though pushing for greater workforce engagement of higher class women has undoubtedly created competition and decreased salaries in local to some [small?] degree). It seems deceptive to me to class this as a positive of feminism rather than a sign of the times and economic hardships. Rarely these days is not being the "sole provider" much of a positive choice, rather than an action taken out of necessity.

*can't actually recall where I saw this, I may be mistaken.

>>54671222
>you don't get the reference, le faith in humanity lost
Hmmmm

>>54670578
Summer's been going for years pal.

>>54671862
Technically, September never ended.

>>54671715
You're right that there are many intersections of power. Thus when even if one aspect is equalised there are others that remain. That's why standard feminism that only focuses on women would indeed likely be unsuccessful in achieving truly equality. Perhaps intersectional feminism that takes into account these interesections of race, class, sexual orientation etc. in addition to gender is more likely to succeed.

> The people who tend to lose out in these cases usually are those who are toeing the line as it is, those who are disadvantaged already, the downtrodden and the dysfunctional

I'd argue that the lower class white men who have lost out over the years, did so not due to feminism, or immigration, but due to increased automation, shitty education systems and other issues such as China devaluing their currency.

>Perhaps, but I'm not so sure any solution will ever help everyone.

This is rather pessimistic but I can see this as a possibility.
It may be rather unlikely that we can make everyone better off unless we solve the underlying problem of scarcity first. But I don't really see that as any reason to try given the massive gains to the welfare of women and minorities in the western world at little expense to white, straight men.

>>54669389
Wow. Libertarians are one of the easiest targets imaginable and this guy still managed to not be remotely funny. I'm pretty sure he made up the story anyway, the daughter's dialogue isn't remotely believable. So he was creating a straw man of a political position that is already basically a joke and he still couldn't make a real joke.

>>54671871
Will someone fucking wake Green Day up already?

>>54668417
>plays as transgender dragonborn bard
>since they identify as half elf, they ask for half elf racial bonuses too
This is brilliant, and goes straight into my minmaxer toolkit!

>>54671412
>As I said before, the liberation of women from gender roles means the liberation of men from gender roles as well. It means we don't have to fear seeming feminine, we aren't forced to play sports when we'd rather play traditional games, we aren't required to marry and have kids (particularly if we're gay), we don't have to be the sole provider if we do have kids and thus can actually spend time with them. So while we haven't quite got there with every issue, with the influence of feminism in our recent history, we are free-er than we ever have been before.
>So in actual fact, everyone wins when feminism wins.
Not the guy you've been speaking to
I'm glad you said this, because I think it demonstrates one of the core problems I have with this brand of progressivism (and funnily enough it's extremely similar to the reason I'm no longer libertarian, but I'll let you figure that one out).

Essentially, it seems to me that you're relabelling social norms as "oppression". And, in a literal sense, you're correct, society does compel people down certain paths and away from others, which is technically oppression, albeit a "soft oppression" (in most Western countries, it is at least illegal if not totally socially unacceptable to prevent adults from doing these any of those things).

But ask yourself, why do these "oppressions" exist in the first place? In history, we can see that one group will oppress another because there is some benefit to be had from doing so, so who benefits here? Well, any easy way to tell would be to see who is enforcing these rules, because surely the ones enforcing the rules are either the beneficiary group or in collusion with the beneficiary group. However, these things you're talking about are being enforced by... everyone, they're social norms and are enforced by being normalized in the vast majority of social interactions.

Cont.

>>54671876
I unfortunately cannot agree with your idea that equalization is possible. The way I see it power dynamics will invariably occur from natural processes. We as a species even seem to have evolved social cognitive processes which directly are related to unequal distribution of power and resources. I do not believe that any aspect can ever be truly equalized without unbalancing some other aspect. Short of incredibly radical action which no sane man would sign off on, I can't see true equality ever becoming a real thing for our race in life. As an aside I also think that your conception/subset of feminism is flawed as it fails to take into account anything but culturally created inequality, inequality is also deeply rooted into the natural world, and even should we address all other forms of cultural inequality (again something I do not believe to be possible) it would leave the inherent tyranny of nature intact.

>I'd argue that the lower class white men who have lost out over the years, did so not due to feminism, or immigration, but due to increased automation, shitty education systems and other issues such as China devaluing their currency.
It's a confluence of factors yes, but I believe each does contribute some to the current situation. Even should feminism not have had much economic effect, it has certainly had a cultural effect which has caused (perceived) deleterious effects on a great many peoples. Which is a big reason why there is so much backlash against it even if some may see this as only a sign of privileged people upset by change.

>This is rather pessimistic
Well I am a pessimist, both the philosophical kind and the colloquial kind, so uh, yeah.

>unless we solve the underlying problem of scarcity first.
Post scarcity is IMO a pipe dream, even should we create a society that comes close to post material scarcity, the same cannot be said of man's ability to fabricate meanings and attach them to the unique and irreproducible.

>>54667777
>How has Social Justice affected your games?

I've started to include way more women into my games. Since the world is roughly 50% female, it'd make sense if my players felt like they weren't in a game with the male to female ratio closer to 90/10. It also let me improve my roleplaying as a woman, but that's always tough.

I also make some of the characters differ in skin color, but don't push it at every sentence. If someone asks for their appearance specifically, I might note that they're not white but that's it.

Also, nice GET.

>gm is a /pol/ak, one player votes greens, one is a liberal stem memester, one is british, and im a min maxer

>>54671905
Oh, anon...

>>54671896
>t. libertarian

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>>54671896
>I'm pretty sure he made up the story anyway
you mean like every story in this entire thread?

>>54672127
How do you include them though, just make random characters women, or is the society gender structured?

You know I think such a game could be quite interesting, having parallel plots running in the background that you would only know about if you stopped interacting with all the typical male positions and explored other social circles that you adventurers typically don't think about but run as an undercurrent through just about everything that happens in civilization.

>>54672127
>ask what he looks like
>get told what he doesn't look like

Do you just keep doing that until they narrow it down to a general idea? Sounds pretty time consuming.

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>>54669389
>Confusing anarchists and libertarians

>>54672011 Cont.
Maybe that was a dead end, but we never answered our first question: why do these oppressions exist? Maybe our earlier stab at it was too narrow, let's call these things "social norms" from now on, as a term with fewer negative connotations will allow us to see a bigger picture. Let's look at the broad topic of gender roles, why do they exist?

It might be helpful to look at what things were like before there were gender roles, but that's the problem. Long before our ancestors were walking upright, they were a sexually dimorphic species, meaning that the two genders have fairly distinct anatomy and in essence have designs that suit different purposes. The male body has simply evolved to do certain things better than the female body, and a few things that the female can not do outright, and vice versa. These imbalances in skillset didn't go away as technology advanced, and in fact some theorized that it increased the divide (used to be, men hunted and women foraged. But with the advent of organized agriculture, men were just more suited to plow fields and generally engage in the manual labor needed to raise large amounts of crop, and were now responsible for a majority share of food production, or so the hypothesis is).

And as any historian could tell you, division and specialization of labor was and continues to be one of the driving factors for innovation. When more people in your society are able to focus on one particular set of skills and master them, your society tends to prosper. And if one half of your population tends heavily to excel in certain areas over the other half, the successful societies will be the ones that have the most of those people go into the fields they're statistically likely to favor. And the success of early agricultural societies, due in no small part to division of labor, which in it's most simple form exists between the sexes, is what allowed the large and diverse urban societies to exist at all.

cont

>>54672382 cont.

My full point is this: hierarchy and social norms are fundamentally what allowed us as a species to become so materially and intellectually prosperous. It's POSSIBLE at this point we could continue without them, but that seems a bit like "we're already rich, so we don't need to be smart with our money!". I think it's great that you're concerned for people who don't fit very well into these social norms, but the hard fact is that we cannot base a system off of the possible fringe exceptions and expect to have a coherent system. But we also can't have no system at all, or have as our system the vague idea of "live and let live". Just like the success of your body depends on the health and vitality of your organs, so does the success of the society depend on the health of all it's parts. Imagine if your antibodies looked at a bacterial infection in one of your organs but said "oh well, I may not like it, but it doesn't affect me so live and let live". Obviously that's absurd, the antibodies and the organ share the same fate, but that's my point.

>>54672011
You're totally right that gender roles are partly social norms that are/were enforced by everyone in society, but that doesn't mean that everyone or even most people benefit from them beyond the benefits associated to mere conformity to any social norm present in society.

Even though social norms may limit the choice space of individuals, you're right that that's not always a bad thing, the current social prohibitions against racism and sexism for example or the age old prohibitions against cheating and deception. But they can also be maladaptive.
Just because a social norm was beneficial in the past, doesn't mean it continues to be beneficial now in a different environment.
Considering social norms are essentially social expectations backed by punishment, while it is quite likely that a given social norm evolved in response to a particular social problem, this is not necessarily the case, and they can be quite resistent to change in response to a changing social environment.

>>54672391
Not him, but I think it should be pointed out that hierarchy isn't necessarily the secret to our success though cooperation is. While we certainly do seem predisposed to such self organization, there are various social/collective animals out there that have cooperative success without having rigid power structures or hierarchies. Although they are poor analogs for humans, insects like ants are good examples of this (despite misconceptions of a very structured society stemming from culturally colored ideas of insects during the early days of research mostly by people living in monarchies, most ant colonies actually lack a distinct hierarchy and work in a situational manner in ways very similar to distributed computing). The fact that hierarchical power structures seem to be a hard to escape part of human societal organization doesn't necessarily mean it is better or worse than other forms of organization or that more equal forms are impossible (albeit it maybe part of our nature), it may simply be that by chance this type of organization ended up embedded and self reinforcing of the way we cooperate as a species without it necessarily being more beneficial.

I will admit however there come to mind more than a few convincing arguments for why you may be right, I just felt like playing devils advocate for a bit.

>>54672608
>>54672391
Not to mention, gender and social roles don't necessarily mean hierarchy. Many tribal societies are very egalitarian even though men and women have different tasks to do.

>>54672391
You can't derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Hierarchy and the 'natural' order of things has been used for thousands of years to justify all sorts of atrocities and abuses of fellow humans. But just because we got rid of kings and nobles, doesn't mean society has collapsed. Just because we got rid of slavery doesn't mean society has collapsed.
Social norms can be maladaptive, and social change can be positive. New adaptive norms can be developed in response to changing social environments, or just changing beliefs about what is morally required of us as people.

>>54672866
>Hierarchy and the 'natural' order of things has been used for thousands of years to justify all sorts of atrocities and abuses of fellow humans. But just because we got rid of kings and nobles, doesn't mean society has collapsed. Just because we got rid of slavery doesn't mean society has collapsed.
I specifically did not use the "that's how it's always been done" argument.

I was arguing that the basic concept of different norms and roles for each gender played and continues to play a key role in the success of our species. The guy I was replying to was not lamenting our current gender roles, but gender roles in their entirety, as any societal norms that treated different types of people differently would still fit his criteria for what needed to be changed, and this is the case for many if not most forms of the progressive/feminist worldview.

>You can't derive an 'ought' from an 'is'
good thing I literally did not do that. Plus, any prescriptive piece of rhetoric by definition derives ought from is, so the moment doing that becomes a criticizable flaw in an argument is the moment you become a hypocrite.

>>54672994
Hmm, I think you are right that you aren't exactly deriving an 'ought' from an 'is', I must have misread things, sorry. Although you're wrong that any prescriptive piece of rhetoric by definition derives 'ought' from 'is', any that try to do so are fallacious. To derive an 'ought' from 'is' is to derive a normative judgement from a descriptive one, to derive a judgement of how things should be from how things are.

You haven't exactly done that, you are arguing that gender roles are and have been useful, in order to argue that we should keep them. That's using a normative claim to argue for a normative/prescriptive one.

You're mistake however is in assuming that while gender roles have been and may continue to be useful, they aren't necessarily the best method of social organisation.
Natural evolution, both biological and social, is not perfect. It's possible that we could use rational methods to design different forms of social organisation and social norms that are less oppressive, in fact we have done so, hence the undermining of gender roles so far that feminism has contributed to. Of course, its possible that gender norms may not be completely abolished, but the point is that social norms surrounding gender are being changed to be less oppressive and we are likely better off for it.

Ultimately, I have been actually lamenting the current social norms surrounding gender. Obviously there will always be 'social roles' for gender, but my thought is that gender roles that place very little restrictions of what one must do on the basis of gender are preferable in today's society than those that place heavy restrictions like in the past and some places of the world today.

>>54672214
Like in a real society, some roles are more favored by men and some by women. Although I do not strictly adhere to gender stereotypes, I take them into consideration when thinking whether an NPC is male or female.

>>54672223
I simply don't put much emphasis on that. "He wipes the sweat off his dark neck and continues to swing his axe" sounds better and more appropriate than "The black man continues chopping wood", doesn't it?