Tell me some cool things from Biblical/Abrahamic/Islamic/Hebrew

There is a species of cricket that is kosher

Zaz is a gigantic bird that exists to protect all the smaller birds.

>>54664975
The Nephilim being the offspring of angels and humans always fascinated me. You don't see more of them, but they're described as "might men of old, men of renown". I always thought that they're the demigods that you read about in other mythos

if you take a handful of sand and you let it slip in front of your ear you can hear a Djiin talk if he is near you

>>54664975
Jesus once beat an entire building full of people with a whip full of broken glass.

>>54665159
I don't remember where I heard this, but aren't they supposed to look like Lovecraftian horrors half the time?

>>54665188
they were merchant in a holy place IIRC ?

>>54665159
Goliath is implied to be a Nephilim in some traditions.

The fruit of knowledge is never actually specified and different denominations like the Orthodox church represent it as multiple different fruits

Golems
Angels
Really big monsters

>>54664975
>The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

>I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

>Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

>So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

>Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

It was a vision, but still. If you ever wanted to make a necromancer cleric, there you go.

>>54665216
They were money lenders who charged interest. This was considered to be cheating people, and it was also heresy because they were doing it in the temple.

>>54665295
oh ok

God can be rendered powerless with cold iron.

And for a theological hypothesis, there are a few theologists that think Jesus was basically an ancient Terrence McKenna/Joe Rogan.
>open your mind with dmt duuude
>smoke weed brah
>eat dese mushrooms

Job 41 describes Leviathan, a gigantic fire-breathing sea monster with a thick, armoured hide.

>>54665544
Checked

The Bible is actually Jewish fanfiction on Babylonian myth, and Adam and Eve isn't about the first human pair, but about one of the early Jewish royalty.

The book of Job predates Genesis.

>>54664975
At one point in the Bible, the Philistines managed to steal the Ark of the Covenent from the Israelites and placed it in their temple in Ashdod as an offering to Dagon. Yes, that Dagon. God got pissed off about it, beheaded Dagon, and gave every single Philistine in the area painful cancerous tumors all over their bodies.

The Philistines flipped their shit and decided to move the Ark to different places where it would hopefully not fuck them up as badly. God made the tumors even more painful in retaliation, until the Philistines begged the Israelites to save them and gave offerings to God asking for forgiveness. God then executed the Israelites that he held responsibly for losing the Ark in the first place.

Old Testament God did not fuck around.

>>54665622
Wasn't it that Old Testament God had essentially smacked down entire pantheons of other gods?

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>>54665594
>implying Babylonian myth isn't just fan fiction attempting to explain the then-ancient rites of Mu
Absurdly ancient antediluvian settings are criminally underrated. I wonder why nobody uses them.

>>54665188
>whip full of broken glass.
Uhh, really? Biblical citation? Why glass? I thought he just busted their asses with his hands.

>>54665544
>dem tripdubs
G*d damn.

>>54665671

He smacked down the worshipers of the "other gods". As God makes perfectly clear, there are no other gods to worship. Isaiah 45:5, 6

>>54664975
Aliens sent two seeds to the Earth that caused a war and then everyone turned into Tang.

Here's an interesting one: you know how people swear on the Bible? In fact, swearing oaths is forbidden in the Bible.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A33-37&version=KJV

>>54665544
Checked and Amplified.

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>>54665816
>NGE is biblical fanfiction.

>>54665735
Its a type of whip, he sat on the steps and braided a whip of broken glass and leather, its called a scourge.

>>54665671
Exodus and Numbers both imply that God soloed the entire Egyptian Pantheon.

Kings, however, has a point where another deity sent "an outburst of divine anger" that routed the entire Israeli army and forced them to return home, so there were presumably some heavy-hitting gods other than the Lord back then.

I'm a simple man.
I find the spider/camel story in the Quran very nice and the spider to be very clever.

TLDR: While mohammed escaped from the mecca because he was being persecuted with his compagnon Abou bakr, he hid in a caverns from the bounty hunters that chased him (his head was at the price of 100 camel!), and the bounty hunter had a very good hunter with them to track them, and so they found out that he went there, but because Mohammed is the messenger, he was protected by god and a spider made a web there and a bird made a nest there, and so when the bounty hunter came they saw the web and the nest and deducted that the groups haven't hid in the caverns because else there wouldn't be any web and no birds in the nest.
The camel is when the prophet came to medina, everyone asked him to take their house and property for him to sleep in and live in, but him being so kind and modest, i think it's Amar? or him? decided to let the camel the prophet was sitting on to decide where is going to be the first prophet house by sitting on the place it's going to be.

>>54665594

I think you mean Akkadian-Sumerian, but there's actually some definite differences there. The Bible, however, definitely shows signs of inconstistent editing, likely dating from after the Persian diaspora. Largely attempting to turn from Polytheism with a primary deity to Monotheism.

>>54665888
Your story is shit and mohammed was a serial liar, murderer and child rapist.

>>54665922

>>/pol/ is thataway.

>>54665671

More or less. Mostly seemed to really throw down when in Canaan and dealing with all those guys after the Jews got out of the desert. Favorite one has to be when Elijah gets sent alone to deal with a bunch of prophets of Baal. They set up some contest on top of a mountain, and all the Baal-ites(??) are throwing more and more shit on the fires, yelling and cutting themselves and stuff. Elijah knows he's gonna win, and smugly keeps taunting them, "Maybe he's asleep? You should yell louder!" They give up after a day or so I think, then it's Elijah's turn to try lighting his fire and get God to show up. Basically throws some wet sticks on the altar, tosses the equivalent of a match back then, and burns down the entire mountain, and all the priests of Baal.

>>54665275

> Golems

Specifically clay golems that resemble humans near-perfectly, aside from being ice-cold to the touch and perhaps some naivety.

As opposed to modern fantasy golems (water/rock/air/etc) that may not be humanoid at all.

>>54665877

That story you have there is not correct. The anger against Israel in that story (it is in 2 Kings 3:27) was not divine. You probably used the NET translation; it is not correct, that word is used elsewhere in the Bible for ordinary human anger, and there is no indication of "divine" in the text.

Am I the only one that enjoys the irony that on 4chan, of all places, is where I tend to see the most level-headed discussion of religion and theologies? These kinds of threads always get helpful anons, and everyone's totally down with sharing stories and viewpoints, and outside of the occasional Rustler, everyone's chill. Truly, /tg/ is best board.

>>54665972

You're remembering the story wrong. They weren't throwing anything on fires, and Elijah threw no match. Nor were the Baalites killed by the fire. The way the challenge worked was simple:

The Baal prophets would lay up a sacrifice to Baal on an altar in the morning, and not light it. They would ask Baal to light it instead. They asked, Elijah mocked them because of course Baal did not answer them (largely because Baal does not exist).

Then, in the evening, Elijah put a sacrifice, had it doused in water (12 large buckets' worth), and prayed to YHWH. YHWH burned the sacrifice with fire from the sky, so hard that it incinerated the sacrifice, the wood, and the water.

Then Elijah had the people of Israel seize the false prophets and he personally executed them the old fashioned way, with a sword.

>>54666085
>You don't see /pol/lacks blaming /lgbt/ for every trap thread, now do you?

No, of course not. Traps are OUR thing, /lgbt/ has nothing to do with it!

>>54666047
Go to /his/, or stay on this thread for a few more posts. Your opinion will change.

>>54666082

Ah. Thanks, it's been a while. Really the most that stuck out to me was the taunting, and purposefully using wet wood to make a point.

Some stupid kids once made fun of Elijah the prophet for being bald. He cursed the children in the name of the LORD, and the LORD did send female bears to kill and devour the children.

>>54666047
Don't worry, in a few posts we'll all be calling each other heretics and screaming at each other about whether or not specific apocryphal texts should be accepted.

Are Satan and Lucifer different beings? Lucifer was an angel cast out of Heaven and Satan is just a generic evil overlord, I've never heard how they connect

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>>54666142
>female bears

>>54665622
I will never understand why people of Abrahamic faith believe their god is the only god. When their own holy script talks about how their one god interacted with other deities.

Just because you killed most of them doesn't mean they never existed at all.

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>>54666142

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>>54665922
Edgy.

>>54665295
>charged interest
God forbid they get paid for doing work.

>>54664975
Saint Christopher was 7'6" tall. A walking slab of Canaanite beefcake who could uproot trees and use them as cudgels.
He apparently was not a brilliant man, but he had it in his head to go serve "the greatest king of them all".
So, he hooked up with the King of Canaan, which was a powerful empire.
That relationship ended the moment Christopher saw the king do the father-son-holy-spirit cross thing when one of his advisors mentioned the Devil.
So, since the King was evidently afraid of the Devil, Christopher went looking to pledge loyalty to the Devil.
And he FOUND him.
And Christopher served Satan loyally *until* his new master flinched at a roadside cross.
And Christopher was like "I can't be seen with no fuckkin pussies."
So, he sets out and asks a bunch of random people a question that can be taken all kinds of wrong.
"Where can I find Christ?"
Eventually, he gets directed out to meet an old hermit in the woods, who he asks "how can i serve Christ?"
The hermit recommends fasting and prayer.
Christopher is like "Uh, Naww, i was hoping for more of, like, hitting people? Something physical?"
So the hermit is frustrated and makes a suggestion. "Okay, look, you're like a moving wall. The river just a little bit away from here is stupid dangerous, why don't you try helping people cross it?"
And christopher was like "Cool, okay, i can do this".

>>54666231
So christopher becomes a Canaanite ferry. He picks up travellers, puts them on his shoulders, and walks back and forth across the dangerous river all day. The hermit assures him that this labor would be pleasing to Christ.
So, after a good amount of time being used as public transport, An unattended child shows up, and asks Christopher to get him across, and Christopher agrees.
Except... this kid is inhumanly heavy, his weight is such that it bends Christopher's back and pushes his head below the water... and every step he takes is agony, fighting and struggling just to push across the river. But he makes it to the other side.
And he's like "Kid, wow, that was the worst it's ever been. I don't think the whole world weighs as much as you."
But the kid is like "you just carried the weight of the entire world, and he who created it. I'm Christ, and you're serving me well doing this. Keep up the good work."
then he vanished into the air.

Christopher was pretty baller, far as the saints go. He was eventually martyred by a jealous king after he refused to make a sacrifice to a pagan god, refused to be bribed by the king's riches, and converted the two women who had been sent to seduce him over to christianity. He also converted thousands in that king's city and survived multiple assassination attempts before an army tied him down and beheaded him.

>>54666159
Satan is (or rather was) God's "dragon"
I've always felt the most appropriate comparison for it was that on the great trial for the salvation of man, he is the prosecution. Man is weak and too easily lead astray, according to him. In that logic, Jesus serves as our defender.

>>54666171
At some points in the bible, it's painfully obvious that Abrahamic faith was that there are many gods, but their God was the best/strongest/only one worth worshipping, and that the transition to an entirely monotheistic belief where all the other gods were imaginary wasn't as smooth as planned.

Some beliefs and interpretations have attempted to asscover by saying that the other gods in the bible were all either Satan or a fallen angel trying to lead the Israelites astray, but that's a pretty lazy as shit explanation.

>>54666171

That's the thing: the holy script does no such thing. Even the text you are replying to only has God interact with an idol, and idolatry is repeatedly mocked throughout the Bible specifically because idolaters worship a piece of wood or stone that does nothing.

You are reading into the text that which is not there.

>>54666159
I could be totally wrong, but I believe that Lucifer is in fact a fallen angel. While "Satan" is more a title. Like how Captain is the title of the person in charge of the ship.

So Lucifer can be Satan when he wants, the same way he could be a Captain of his own ship. But whoever is currently Satan is not always Lucifer.

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>>54666280
Look at me.

I am the Satan now.

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>>54665708
African Proto KANG-doms
Kek.

>>54665594
The Jewish bible is a Caananite cult playing revisionism with their war god. The religion is Caananite, not Babylonian, though they are related.

>>54666085

You come here slinging /pol/ memes, we point you where they belong. As for traps? Most /lgbt/ folks I know don't like that term. But they were popular on /b/ before /tg/ existed, and they're popular on /tg/ now. But the 'Mohammed was a serial liar, murderer and child rapist thing' was A: not at all relevant to the topic, and B: /pol/ as fuck. So. Gtfo back to /pol/.

>>54666225
>God forbid they get paid for doing work.
Theirs is no work.
Usury is very specific in it's crimes and every society on earth until the last 100-150 years agreed that it was immoral to make loans charged twice.
Even those who partook in it agreed that it was, they just had rules that allowed them to be immoral to "subhuman" people groups (those not of their religion).

The best example of old attitudes towards usury is Cato, when asked how to best make money, answering that in the fields and animals was the best.
The interviewer asked him what he thought of usury as a money-making method.
Cato rethorically answered "What do you think of murder?"

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>>54666312
The Finno-Korean Hyperwar was a thing of violent, genocidal beauty, and the only legitimately funny thing /his/ has ever made.

>>54666273
Really? Because if you read the fucking bible then you will know that when the jews were trying to leave Egypt Moses went up against the court magicians. They created magical snakes by the power of their gods. Moses was forced to use the power of his god to create a better snake.

If it is all blind idolatry, then why the fuck would Moses be forced to compete at all? If his god is the only real god, then were did the power to create those snakes come from?

>inb4 hurr durr Satan!!!

No, the Egyptians never once worshiped Satan or Lucifer, they worshiped THEIR OWN GODS.

>>54666280
I'm pretty sure its just the differences between different subsections of Christianity, some call it Satan, some call it Lucifer, some portray Gabriel as female, others as male etc.

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>>54665188
>mfw my youth pastor told this story to shit on the Jesus Hippie image

>>54665385
>God can be rendered powerless with cold iron

Elaborate

>>54666047
Discussing religion elsewhere is almost always for the purpose of either defending or shitting on it, which naturally rustles everyone's jimmies. Discussing religion on /tg/ is ideally to harvest it for cool ideas, which ideally just leads to discussion of cool ideas. And of course, we're still autistic so the explanations/discussions can get really, really in-depth for no other reason than one dude half-remembered a cool story and somebody else had to correct him on it.

>>54664975
Jacob ran into an angel one day and asked for its blessing. The angel said they were too busy to do so.
Jacob didn't like that answer, and the two of them spent a full day wrestling.
Eventually the angel tapped out, and gave Jacob his blessing. Jacob was then known as Israel, which means "He who fights with God."

>>54666377
Some minor passage in the bible says that the Israelites lost a battle because their enemy had chariots made from iron and they had no chariots.

Fedora-tippers have somehow construed that to imply that God is a Fae creature and is weak to Cold Iron.

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>>54666225
>usury
>work

>>54665159
>The Nephilim being the offspring of angels and humans always fascinated me.
When the Nephilim are depends on who you ask. They're generally said to be the offspring of fallen angels and human women, but some argue that they're actually the sons of Cain, as he was a "Son of God", like his father, Adam, was.

>>54665210
Nephilim were described as giants, some sources saying the were grotesquely ugly, others saying that they were angelically beautiful.

>>54666435
I only now notice that absolutely is misspelled. welp
Good thing I didn't make it

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>>54666047
On /pol/ it's mostly about shitting on every denomination because the pope or some pastor in the bible belt was caught fucking a dude or something.
On /his/ it's about reigniting 500 year old arguments
On /tg/ it's mined for intrest and setting ideas like >>54666382 said
>mfw going on /his/ threads

>>54666331

This guy knows what he's talking about.

It's likely a partial mix of Akkadian and Canaanite religions, and it's most close relative, pre-Islamic Arabian paganism, was active up until about 1400 years ago.

As such, YHWH had a wife, likely a variant of Ishtar/Inanna, as well as other deities.

>>54666082

Amusingly enough, Ba'al just means 'Lord' in most Semitic languages of that period. Modern religious-related names inspired by that are Beelzebub (Ba'al-zevuv, literally 'Lord of the Flies', a term of derision against other deities) and Ba'al Shem Tov (Master of the Good Name), the founder of Hasidicism.

>>54666159
>>54666280
>>54666370
The name Lucifer, and especially the idea of a fallen angel named Lucifer, is not biblical. The passage in question is foretelling the downfall of some Babylonian king.

"Lucifer" is just Latin for "morning star."

>>54665150
Thought it was spelled Ziz.

>>54666510
That's how Wildbow spells it in his shitty grimdark story.

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>>54666510
>not Zzz
Also,
>CAPTCHA: COUNTY CEMETERY
I'm scared, anons.

>>54666365
>They created magical snakes by the power of their gods.
Nope. No gods mentioned in that passage. You are, again, reading into the text that which is not there. They did it "by their enchantments", or more technically "lehatim", which means "secret" or "hidden arts". It is not explained how they did it, yet nothing in that passage says they did it by the power of gods of any sort.

>No, the Egyptians never once worshiped Satan or Lucifer, they worshiped THEIR OWN GODS.
They thought so, at least.

>>54666510
It's actually spelled zyzz

>>54666483
From what we know of Asherah, she was probably way less of a total monster than Ishtar though, who was about as negative as you can get with a deity without going full Aztec.

>>54666493

Oh, right, the Lucifer/Satan thing.

Lucifer is entirely a Roman Church invention.

Satan simply means 'adversary', and in the context of Judaism it seems to have initially been a title for heaven's prosecutor, then a relatively minor demon. In Jewish demonology, Asmodeus is the grandfather of all demons.

>>54666566
I still miss him

>>54666171
>>54666256
what other gods would be worshiped at the same time as what we see as the modern God? i thought God was originally El-Elyon turned into Marduk but >>54666331
says they were Caananite

>>54666493
so what is "Lucifer's" real name?

>>54666605

Yup. But Asherah/Ashtoreth often gets confused with Molech and the sacrifice of children.

Do we know many details about Molech outside of, IIRC, Judges/Kings?

>>54666666

>>54664975
-Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they have "the truth."

Muslims believe they have "the truth."

LDS believe they have "the truth"

Christians believe they have "the truth."

Jews believe they have "the truth."

Russelites believe they have "the truth."

Unification Church believe they have "the truth.

All this sounds like a trap to me, and traps are kinda gay!

>>54666657

We do have evidence from other Semitic religions in the area that YHWH was the Zeus equivalent of his pantheon, only A: more of a dick, and B: less prone to dicking random women.

>>54666677
Fuck off, we don't care.

>>54666349
It's not really a meme, unless you just completely ignore that god isn't real but Aisha was.

>>54666688
Around what point did Christianity/Judaism absorb Zoroastrianism into their texts and interpretation of God?

>>54666688
>more dick
>less dick
Is that like some kind of faith mistery?

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>>54666360
That Jackie Chan disputed casualty always gets me.

>>54666775
Zeus gave the dick.

YHWH was a dick.

There's a difference.

>>54666735

It was during/after the Persian Diaspora. I believe that, over time, focus on YHWH had become more and more central to the Hebrews, but the tribe of Judah (from whom we get Jew), when it returned from Persia, really made the jump. IIRC, the northern tribes of Israel retained more of their polytheism, as well as had a fair amount of miscegenation, which led to the southern kingdom of Judah viewing them as not really Hebrews any more.

>>54666775
>>54666802

Zeus was also a dick. But YHWH was more of a dick, and gave less dick. Basically, as a primary god, the more dick you have, the less you want to give it away.

>>54665385
>God can be rendered powerless with cold iron.

No wonder the term "atheist" has become synonymous with smug neckbeards who do nothing but regurgitate out-of-context shit they haven't even bothered to fact check.

why are we saying YHWH instead of Yahweh?

>>54666870
Because it's his name.

The Witch of Endor is one of those weird things that people try to ignore or gloss over.

>>54666870
>no way!
>YHWAH!

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>>54666866
it's just as bullshit to assume most atheists are fedora tippers as it is to assume most christians are cousin fucking rednecks

fuck off

>>54666686
>>>/pol/
>>>/his/

>>54666663
I've heard some people conflate it with Nergle, but that's about it.

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>all those 666 digits

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>>54666909

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My Grandfather has been studying Kabbalah for almost 50 years, and he's been teaching me on and off for ~5. AMA.

>>54665281
>there was a noise, a rattling sound
2spooky4me

>>54666870
Because the people doing that are actual Jews.

>>54666955
Why do the Sephirot show up all the fucking time in Evangelion?

>>54666293
God damn it

>>54666908
>Witch of Endor
see, this is the shit i like to see, the weird and cool shit like Samson killing a thousand niggas in a day. i never read the bible so i don't know how many other weird things that are glossed over are in the bible

If you go into LDS canon

The book of Moses tells that there are other gods and children of those gods on other planets

Also you should check out the Joseph smith translations which clarify some faded stuff in the Bible, such as god hardening the Pharohs heart

>>54666908
Tell me about it anon.

>>54666986
Literally because Anno thought they look cool; no other reason. Same with all the esoteric and pseudo-esoteric stuff in Evangelion.

>>54666908
I dunno if this is the wrong thread, but either way I want to hear more.

>>54666955
Hit me up with the weirdest shit you know of.

>>54666870
>>54666984

Because, due to Semitic writing styles, we're far more sure about consonants than vowels.

>>54666988
There's a lot of really cool and fun things in the bible, but they're buried under hundreds of pages worth of boring geneology and overly flowery accounts of people traveling to different places and talking about unimportant things.

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>>54666988
Here's one for you

>>54666988
If you're looking for stuff like that in the bible, you want to read about David, Solomon, then Judges/Kings and also about the various Prophets.

>>54666870
Hebrew is a retarded half-language with no vowels. The way that people know how to pronounce Hebrew words is by learning from context and tradition (no musical number intended.) Because that defeats the whole purpose of having an alphabet, Hebrew users will often cheat and insert vowel markers in between the letters so you know how to actually say the words. But the Tetragrammaton, YHWH, is never pronounced due to superstition. When reading from the Torah, you're supposed to gloss right over it and substitute a different word, usually "Adonai." As a result, sometimes you see "YHWH" with the vowel markers of the word you're actually supposed to say in its place. "Yahweh" is a translation error created when someone who didn't know what he was doing saw "YHWH" written with the vowel markers of "Adonai."

>>54667052
Elijah is totally rad too

>>54665059
its not crickets. its locust

>>54667023
>Hit me up with the weirdest shit you know of.
Literally the only reason humans exist is as a long, protracted way of God to show the angels that free will isn't that bad
maybe
It's one interpretation, at least.

>>54667023
It's the right thread. She was a necromancer hired by Saul to summon Samuel's ghost for advice. And she did it. Samuel's ghost told Saul off for having him summoned, but the witch herself was quite hospitable and even made sure Saul had something to eat. She has been a thorn in the side of Abrahamic religions because she is apparent evidence that not only are necromancers real, but they can be nice.

>>54666932

Nergal was a sun god of war and pestilence. Like an evil Apollo.

>>54666955

What do you take away from 'Ain' 'Ain Soph' and 'Ain Soph Aiur' (or however else it may be done, different branches do different things).

>>54666988

You, my friend, want to read Judges. I have long maintained that someone should turn that shit into an HBO miniseries.

>>54667058

No, the writing uses diacritical marks to denote vowels, as does Arabian, Aramaic, and practically every other Semitic language. There was no 'cheating', the diacritical marks are a PART OF THE WRITING. See also the first serious conlang's (Elven) writing script, which uses diacritical marks for vowels. Those are little marks above or below the letters.

As for Yahweh coming from Adonai, no. That's how we got Jehovah. Yahweh is largely considered to be the most likely way it was pronounced, but 'thou shalt not take my name in vain' became 'Thou shalt not ever speak my name ever.' Much like how 'Thou shalt not have any other gods before me' became 'I am the only god ever'.

>>54667097

Samuel's ghost was so pissed at Saul.

the story of lilith is kinda neat.

genesis 1 and 2 have two different tellings of the creation myth. the first one is the well known "and on the 7th day he rested" the 2nd story is up side down and backwards, man was created first, and all things were created for him.
so who is lilith you ask? well in the first story both man and woman were created at the same time, that woman was lilith, and as she was created with adam and not FROM adam, she considered herself to be equal to him, and was cast out of the garden for insubordination.

in the 2nd story eve was made out of adams rib.

this is how the rabbi square the circle of 2 different creation myths. and the tale of lillith, mother of demons.

>>54667052
>>54667062
really the only cool hidden things i know are Samson's killing spree, the witch of endor (which i just learned about), god created the flood to wipe out the nephilim, and that solomon could summon demons and was pretty chill with them

anything else?

>>54667126
I don't blame Samuel

He was in spirit paradise until judgement day.

It's cool there

>>54665188
>>54665295
The temple wouldn't accept Roman coinage for sacrifices so of course there were money changers outside the temple.

>>54665385
Jesus probably didn't exist. In the earliest gospel, the Gospel of Mark, the story was an allegorical reinterpretation of Isaiah justifying preaching to the gentiles. Judas=Judah the kingdom of the Jews, John the Baptist=Elijah and Jesus=Elisha. For example, see the parable of the Vineyard

12 Jesus then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.

6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’

7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10 Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
11
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[a]?”

12 Then the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders looked for a way to arrest him because they knew he had spoken the parable against them. But they were afraid of the crowd; so they left him and went away.

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>>54664975
The devil, Samael, is not actually working against god. According to Judaism, Samael is god's prosecutor. When you're judged in heaven, it is Samael who lists all of your sins, while God himself defends your virtues.

>>54666280
>While "Satan" is more a title
Actually, it's a verb. The literal translation of the word, "le-satan," means "to turn away [from the path]."

>>54667158
God or Jesus?

I'm pretty sure god is the judge, and Jesus is your lawyer

>>54667158
samael is lucifer's real name? or is that not comparable between judaism and christianity?

>>54667158
the word satan shows up twice in the hebrew bible. once it refers to a warlord, the other time its an angel whos talking to god. sowing seeds of doubt in the book of job

>>54667126
>What do you take away from 'Ain' 'Ain Soph' and 'Ain Soph Aiur'
I don't understand the question. What do you mean "take away?"

The Urim and Thummim are pretty funny. They were divination tools of some kind that were kept inside a wacky jeweled breastplate, but nobody really kmows exactly what they were.

>>54667140

ikr. It's like Buffy season 6 all over again.

>>54667158

As I understood it, Satan literally meant 'adversary'. I acknowledge I might be wrong.

>>54667186

You can usually tell a Judaic tradition angel's name because it ends with 'el', and usually means 'the something of god'.

>>54667188

As in, how do you read it?

>>54667188
are you aware that rule number one of the kabbalah is "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO READ THE KABBALAH!"

>>54667186
Lucifer was the Catholic name for Samael.

They fluffed him as the Great Evil so that they would have someone to blame bad things on, so he went from a subordinate of God to being the devil.

>>54667201

A most common belief was that they were basically sacred dice.

>>54667206

He could be 40, it might be cool.

>>54667201
Translation device of the gold plates


That's what they where for

>>54666908
Mostly because it implies that sorcery is real.

>>54667180
>Jesus is your lawyer
Only in those wacky "Jesus is your best buddy and constantly watches over your shoulder at all times" brands of protestantism.

>>54667232
Sorcery is real

Like possession and stuff.

Your church's don't believe this?

>>54667134
Wasn't there supposed to be a woman between Lilith and Eve as well? God created her from the inside out, but Adam was too grossed out watching it happen to fuck her, so God scrapped her and made sure Adam was asleep while he made Eve.

>>54666914
>>54666914

You sure are triggered.

Wanna talk about it, buddy?

>>54667180
I'm Jewish, so I can't help you there.

>>54667186
Samael is the original name of the Christian Lucifer, yes. It's kinda like the zeus-jupiter connection, but less so.

>>54667206
No, you're not allowed to read the kabbalah ON YOUR OWN. Make sure you have a teacher who knows what the fuck they're doing.
Besides, it's less of a rule and more of a strong recomendation.

>>54667233
He went through the atonement to vouch for you.

It's to let justice and mercy be happy

>>54667261
Alright, I'm intrigued.
Why aren't you supposed to read it alone?

>>54667255
i'm not the one who needlessly threw out childish insults, if anyone is triggered it's you for thinking atheists are "synonymous with smug neckbeards."

i'd be willing to bet most people in this thread are either atheists or agnostics

>>54667299
Not I

But I'm not the dude you are arguing with

Full blood Christian over here

>>54667252
>god had to make THREE women for Adam

i didn't know that but that's pretty funny. i heard lilith turned into a beastiality demon, don't know anything about bitch #2

>>54667294
because in all honesty if you try and read it in a literal way its just nonsensical bullshit thatll make you toss the book into the bin and become an atheist faster than you can say "oy vey" if some else is there to feed you BS about how its all "metaphor" and not just retarded, you might be more receptive.

>>54667255
Triggered, but not wrong. Most atheists, like most Christians, are usually decent people.

>>54666350
>>54666435
People beg you to loan them money that you worked for.

You give them a set rate that they agree too before hand.

They dont want to pay it back in full.

O MAH GOD YOU IS SO EVUL N SHIET

>>54666349
How is that even a meme, you retard? I wasn't even the one who posted that either.

/pol/ is a part of 4chan and I'll definitely post both there and here on /tg/ as I like.

And since you know so much about 4cham, I shouldn't have to tell you that casual racism and trolling has been a part of it since the beginning.

>>54667126
The pronunciation of ancient languages is mostly unknown even in the best of times. The question of how people 4,000 years ago pronounced a word they never spoke, besides being a contradiction, is something we have especially little evidence to speculate from, to put it lightly.

>>54667294
It's like 90% figurative language and philosophy.

If you go in without any guide to what it means, you end up like >>54667323 this faggot, who couldn't understand anything, ragequit, and traded his book in for a fedora and a copy of The God Delusion.

>>54667310
Same here. Actual theology isn't /tg/ material unless you're trying to set up an in-universe religion. The "weird" stuff isn't sermon material but is more fitting for /tg/.

>>54667244
To be honest I'm not even christian but a lot of religious people don't believe in ghosts or magic and think that only the wacko ones do, like those unironically believing in satanic conspiracies.
And there are also a lot of churchs unwilling to give this kind of power to anyone besides God.

>>54667187
The first time is shows up, it shows up in regard to Balam (the warlord's magician) while he was riding his donkey. In that case, the word was used literally; an angel literally guided Balam's donkey off the path.

>>54667202
Personally, I see Ein Sof as god seperated from existance. When this universe is gone, and before it even was, and when every other universe is gone, and there is no heaven or hell or any other creation that exists, there will still be God. Beyond physical, beyond spiritual, beyond existence, and even beyond conception: The underlying perfection behind everything that we, as humans, can and cannot comprehend.

>>54667294
Because it's so fucking dense, you won't learn anything from it if you don't have someone helping you.
Or worse, you might learn nonsense, and think that it's the true way.

>>54667365
Well I am LDS


Joseph smith almost got killed by Satan for praying because he was so important.

Idk

>>54667294
It was always meant to be more of a social club and less of a philosophy or practical magic. You had to be a married man to practice it, which meant you had to be firmly in the community, and you had to have a teacher for the same reason you need sponsors to get into a country club or a crime family.

>>54667255
What is wrong with being triggered when someone insults you? It's kinda normal especially when it's about something as personal as religious beliefs. (And even nonbelievers live in a society giving value to personal convictions so they can be as hurt as religious people when their convictions are grossly critized)

https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.59a?lang=bi
>And Rabbi Yoḥanan says: A gentile who engages in Torah study is liable to receive the death penalty; as it is stated: “Moses commanded us a law [torah], an inheritance of the congregation of Jacob” (Deuteronomy 33:4), indicating that it is an inheritance for us, and not for them.

if god came from Marduk, was lucifer another deity from Babylonian/Canaanite polytheism transformed into someone else or is he original to the Abrahamic faiths?

>>54667147
Further expansion from another anon: Paul's letters (at least the ones he wrote) are the earliest writings of the Jesus cult we know of, and his conception of Jesus is that of a heavenly spirit that was crucified in Heaven. As above, so below. Thus the Heavenly crucifixion and sacrifice bestowed the blessing on all creatures above and below.

His conversion vision was also of a strictly heavenly being who never sullied himself by being incarnate. It could also have been a heat stroked induced hallucination that triggered severe guilt over his state sanctioned killings of certain hellenistic jews in messianic cults.

>>54667435
Almost every ancient religion had a sun god, because the sun gives life. Lucifer means "morning star". Connect the dots.

>>54667158
I'd like to clarify what I said here just a bit more.

When I said "to turn away [from the path]," I meant "to turn SOMEONE ELSE away [from the path]." It is not you yourself who strays from the path, but whoever you are satan-ing who strays.

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>>54667415

>>54667436
He could also be Jesus

It's impossible to prove either true so why bother

>>54667443
i dont mean lucifer as in his name translation, i mean samael as in the BBEG of the abrahamic faiths

>>54667346

Casual racism is saying 'nigger' to the point where you don't even mean black people. But casual racism and something filled with actual rage and hate makes it seem like you missed that the casual racism was a joke.

>>54667435
Not exactly? I guess the closest analog would be Tiamat, but Marduk just straight-up killed her and she isn't a problem anymore. Good and evil in Mesopotamian myth weren't centralized into one figure each but more broadly distributed. Marduk, for example, wasn't an uncreated supreme being but the son of a couple of less important gods.

An interesting thing about their pantheon is that there are two gods for almost everything, a mostly good one and a mostly bad one.

>>54667158
The Satan who shows up in Job is "ha-satan," which is to say, well, "the satan."

As >>54667202 says, "satan" in this case is usually translated "adversary."

>>54667147
>Jesus probably didn't exist.
Scholarly consensus says he did.

>>54667499
>replying to him
Stop that.

>>54667443
The Morning Star is Venus, who in ancient Semitic religions was identified with Innana/Ishtar/Astarte.

>>54667158
Alternatively, in Gnosticism, Samael (also known as Yaldabaoth and Yahweh) is just another name for the Demiurge, an imperfect and antagonistic psuedo-god who incorrectly believes himself to be the true source of all creation, but has only created the physical world.

In Gnostic faith, the true form of humanity is as fractions of one of the Aeons, the true divine figures who exist outside of the physical world in a realm of nothing but disembodied energy, called the pleroma. That non-physical energy realm in considered to be true paradise unbound by the suffering of the physical world, but when Yaldabaoth created the physical, he entrapped all humans here in mortal bodies.

But through study and participation in the divine, humans can achieve a sort of enlightenment and work to return their soul to the pleroma where they belong.

What I'm saying is, Gnosticism is full of fucking PHENOMENAL worldbuilding material. It's fucking crazy.

>>54667448
Huh, I think I actually wrote that screencap.
This feels weird.

>>54667539
>The Morning Star is Venus, who in ancient Semitic religions was identified with Innana/Ishtar/Astarte

That would explain the King Arthur story where Lucifer turned into a big-tittied woman and tried to fuck Sir Percival.

>>54667351

We're actually pretty good at coming up with something that seems like it may have been at least one ur-language, reconstructed PIE is a language that is logical for all modern IE languages to derive from.

>>54667378

Fair enough. If you ever watched Babylon 5, the Foundationists had a similar view of God. As did G'kar. But they were honestly just repeating something that mystics had been saying forever.

>>54667415

I don't hold by that eruv.

>>54667529

I am curious as to the scholarly consensus regarding Jesus that you mention. And whether it more closely resembles the Jesus of the Gospel, or the Jesus mentioned in the writings of Ireneus who lived to his 60s.

>>54667552
Uh oh. No conversation ever ends well when it begins with "in Gnosticism"

>>54667529
Scholarly consensus is partly Christians, and most of the rest are people who don't want to offend Christians. There are no contemporary accounts of him whatsoever, and you'd think there would be.

What is so wrong with no believing in God or the supernatural in general? I don't get why it somehow make you an edgy virgin or something.

>>54667605
isn't there documentation of his arrest in Roman legal paperwork?

>>54667605
There's the New Testament

I'm pretty sure that people did write about him, but 2017 years is tough on paper

>>54667624

Nope. Afaik, he's basically mostly 2nd through 4th hand for primary sources, and at least one of the Gospels (John) was found to have existed in some form before his supposed birth.

>>54665220
That's not really that much of a stretch, Israel was supposed to be lousy with giants descended from the Nephilim and when the Jews moved in and exterminated them some of the giants fled to Philistine cities, among these being Gath, where Goliath came from. The question of how these post-flood giants could be descended from the Nephilim is never really answered.

>>54667605
Josephus mentions Jesus.
Granted it's not 100% contemporary but in historical terms it's still rather close.

>>54667587
Foundationism was a weak sort of syncretism, almost creedless except in saying that all religions of all planets have a point, the successors of Unitarians and "spiritual but not religious" people. G'kar is some kind of secular thinker who sees value in religious practice but believes in nothing supernatural. His statement about God, ignored even by his own cult, is that he is nothing more than the feelings people put into the search for him.

>>54667622
The problem comes from people who try to then push their views on other people. Just because you don't believe doesn't mean that other people can't believe in something. When you get people insisting that people's beliefs are false and that they shouldn't believe them, you start getting into heavy fedoratipper tier.

Really the thing is to just accept that people believe different things, and that belief doesn't have to antagonize reason.

>>54667622
It's not that being atheist makes you an edgy virgin.

It's that only the edgy virgins go around telling absolutely everyone that they're atheists and that god is a sky-fairy.

>>54667605
It makes no sense for the religion to have jsut sprung up about a guy who never existed.

Was there a Jesus of Nazareth preaching in the early First Century isn Judea?
Undoudedly; everyone was doing that those days, and Jesus wasn't an uncommon name.

Was this Jesus of Nazareth the son of God?
Well aren't we all?

>>54667625

The earliest version of the bible are pretty much secondary sources as far as history goes.

>>54667656

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

>>54667670
>Well aren't we all?
Allah has no son.

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>>54667622
it doesn't, just ignore those fags. like i said, playing the "you're the stereotype of whatever you like" game is one where no one wins.

it doesn't matter how many people call me a fedora tipper in the same way it doesn't matter if a call them a hillbilly, it's all bullshit.

>>54667682
I am allahs son you dirty heretic

>>54667662

G'kar had been a fervrent follower of G'Quon, one of the primary religious practices of his people. After his assault on Molari, he had a moment of mystical illumination, and this can be considered as, say, Gautama being a follower of the Hindu religions until he has his great enlightenment.

>>54667670

Well... The question is whether or not there WAS a Nazareth that early.

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>>54667665
>>54667669
if priests and rabbis can preach their faith then how come atheists can't try to convince people about their views without being called edgelords?

this is double standards bullshit

>>54667715

Would we not make fun of priests coming on this board and proselytizing? Yes. Yes we would.

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I secretly hope that pic related is true; it gives me warm feelings inside.

>>54667715
>priests and rabbis can preach their faith
Unless they're doing it in a place of worship, most people find preaching to be fucking annoying.

>>54667715
Have you never seen street evangels before? If you open your mouth about what you believe it, and I didn't specifically ask you, there's a good chance that you're a cunt.

>>54667715
Even religious people find street preachers annoying and mock them or stay away from them.

So yeah, atheists preaching their shit in public is just as annoying and should be openly mocked.

>>54667727
The world is an egg. We are the chick.

Smash the world's shell.

>>54667715
I'm not saying you can't, but there's a point where attempts to convince become over the top and aggressive.

I feel a lot of the blowback comes from the kind of stubbornness that views bring in people. More often than not it stops being a discussion and starts being a fight. The same applies to proselytization from any religion or school of thought.

Ideally, we could all be open minded to the beliefs of others enough that we could all discuss it without coming to blows, but that's really, really hard.

>>54667726
>>54667729
>>54667745
>>54667749
i was talking more about on 4chan, i never see christfags get mocked because they usually get backed by /pol/fags and in that case you get called and edgelord, a tipper, a tumblrina, a reddit and morty fan, etc

>>54667727
Kind of, I'm LDS and we believe that we are gods kids, and that we are here to grow.

Now I'm not everyone, but if I stay on the straight and narrow I will adventually become a god.

Because god loves us so much even the wicked on this earth end up in a paradise, not the best paradise. Although this isn't entirely cannon I believe that through other lives like this one people can move up the afterlife ladder

It's really hopeful actually

>>54667712
He was a G'quonist in the same way that a lot of people are Jewish: because someone hates him for it and that gives him an identity that he can't escape despite what he does or doesn't believe. His statements after his "enkightenment" make that quite clear.

>>54667772
Christfags are mocked on /pol/ every now and then, but mostly by neopagans.

fuck neopagans.

>>54667772
I never see christfags proselytizing, discussing religion is one thing and shoving their views down your throat is another which what I mostly see out of atheists in here or the internet in general. Atheists are always mocking and being smug cunts about their shit and generally pushing their morals in every post, always looking for a fight rather than a discussion which is where the whole fedora meme comes from, it is a stereotype but all stereotypes have a some truth to them.

Atheists did this shit to themselves.

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This is Resheph, a egyptian and canaanite god of Horses, Chariots, Fire and Plague. In a couple points in the Bible he is described in the retinue of Yahweh and as an agent of his wrath.

>>54667665
I think it's more the attitude of "You'd have to be stupid to believe this shit" that makes the difference between an atheist and a fedoratipper. You can try to "convert" people to your side without being like that. It's good for beliefs to be challenged.

>>54667772

Well, I don't really mock either myself. I mean, there's a few religions that I'd absolutely mock, but being in a religion which has about 1500 years of cultural weight behind it, eh. I was raised evangelical, and now I'm not something that fits in boxes easily.

>>54667776

He was rather obviously devout, even if a part of it was more because of social image than otherwise (and he expressed to Na'Toth that he really did believe). His G'Quon shit is strongly tied to his cultural identity, which is also strongly tied to his hatred. A Muslim suicide bomber is likely still a devout Muslim.

>>54667783

Define 'neopagans'.

>>54667775
Check it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_of_salvation_(Latter_Day_Saints)

Now Wikipedia isn't cannon in the slightest but hopefully it can clear things up

>>54666231
>>54666239
Don't forget, he is often depicted with the head of a dog.

>>54667147
As far as I'm aware, the only thing they're allowed to each gentiles is the Noahide laws.

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was King Allant a Buddhist?

>You fool, don't you understand? No one wishes to go on...

heaven is for chumps who are just gonna sin again, let's completely eradicate our consciousness instead! love is just as bad as hate! don't accumulate karma!

>>54667753
Reach Heaven Through. Violence

>>54667826
neopagans are edgy faggots who pray to Wotan and Thor while simultaneously rejecting the fact that either of these two beings exist.
Animsits don't count as neopagans, tho. They're pretty cool.

>>54667140
Wouldn't he have been in Sheol doing nothing? Jews don't have the same heaven/hell setup.

>>54667499
Are you so dense that I have to explain for the third time that trolling has existed on 4chan long before the /pol/ boogeyman came to insult your niggers and your islams?

>>54667499
Who let this nigger in here?

>>54667824
to be fair, you really have to be stupid to believe this shit. at this point evidence to disprove whatever book you read is so easily accessible and readily available that you either have to try to avoid it or are just too stubborn to give it up

>>54667845
Neither do I
Check this out>>54667828

Read the spirit world section

It is Wikipedia so take it with a grain of salt

>>54667841

The Buddhist concept of Nirvana always struck me as a cosmic winnowing of those unwilling to strive.

>>54667842

So basically people who, instead of using a non-violent in its texts religion to support their racism, use a violent religion to support their racism, and are thus less hypocritical than Christian racists?

I CANNOT IMAGINE WHY THEY WOULD MOCK YOU.

>>54667873

>does something stupid
>lol no I was just pretending to be stupid

>>54667878

Your mom.

>>54667886
If you're so sure, then go ahead and post it.

And also go conclusively disprove the Quinque viæ too while you're at it.

>>54667886
Evidence can be disproven but the testimonies of the spirit can't

If god wanted people to not have agency he would have made the Bible provable

>>54667516
Love has one entirely bad deity and I've never heard of them having a good counterpart to her.

>>54667894
All LDS related Wikipedia articles should be hosted on special golden pages that only they can see and they won't show you, but they're totes real just take their word for it.

>>54667925
Tammuz, kind of? The god of some kinds of fertility and long-suffering henpecked husbands.

>>54667895
They're both as violent or peaceful as you want them to be. Only difference is, one is ~10% silliness, while the other is ~95% silliness.

>>54667932
Why don't you go look at the ark of the convent, some things are just holy

>>54667921
testimonies of the spirit also can't be proven, they can just as easily be seen as psychotic breakdowns or hallucinations

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>>54667886

>>54667957

Both are roughly the same amount of silliness. One just takes its own silliness seriously.

>>54667964
"Holy" is frequently shorthand for "rude to ask questions about"

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>>54667990

>>54667995

Or for 'this is the weak part of our story'.

>>54667994
No. One is a few silly myths that can be taken as metaphors if you want, with a whole bunch of ethics/philosophy/morality. The other is just silly myths.

>>54667921
Not that "you didn't choose to believe in the right god without proofs so you go to hell but it's free will and totes a choice and not a bet contest" crap please.
It's the most infuriating thing next to the "everyone actually know that God is real and you just choose to not believe in him prob because of hedonism"

>>54667995
I haven't seen them,

I don't want to see them

If I saw an outright symbol of god, then I can be held accountable for my actions.

You can't blame a blind man for tripping over things but you can blame a seeing man

It would be bad for both of us if we saw the plates

>>54667921
>facts restrict my freedom and science is wrong sometimes, so it's better to believe stuff without any evidence at all and be wrong all the time
This sounds like something Mac on It's Always Sunny would say. Is this intentional or accidental self-parody?

>>54668019

Yup. The Havamal completely lacks in ethics/philosophy/morality.

Wait no, no it doesn't. And the ethics/philosophy/morality of Christianity is really not compatible with racism.

>>54668030
Yea but god loves you and Jesus died for your sins, so you can repent before the last judgment in the spirit world if you choose.

>>54667712
>Well... The question is whether or not there WAS a Nazareth that early.
The common thinking is that it's a corruption of the term Nazarine.

>>54666988
Then you should like my favorite bible story: its one verse long: Judges 3:31 After Ehud came Shamgar son of Anath, who struck down six hundred Philistines with an oxgoad. He too saved Israel.

That's the only mention of some guy who killed 600 men with a slightly pointed stick. Who the hell is this guy?

>>54667147
>Jesus probably didn't exist.
You know aside from having about as much historical evidence for him as there is for Caesar even if we discount the Bible itself.
Fucks sake. Revisionism requires people with an actual education and not a quick skim of a wikipedia article.

>>54667990
To be honest the fact he is spoilering it proves he is not that fedoraish.
It's just his opinion and he is self-aware that he can sounds fedora, but it isn't unless you litteraly believe that someone believing god isn't real is a fedora just for that.

>>54668038
>>54668030
>>54667989
Love all the brainlets who went after the low-hanging fruit of >>54667921 but couldn't find any response to >>54667912

>>54665210
No, that's the seraphim. Regular angels. Thousand eyes, or three heads, or wheel of flame.

>>54668069
Judges has so many people kicking so much ass that the guy whose only accomplishment was killing 600 dudes with a stick only gets an honorable mention.

>>54668044
>And the ethics/philosophy/morality of Christianity is really not compatible with racism
You act like I give a shit; I'm neither christian, nor am I racist.

>>54668110
Cool.

>>54668079
it's because it's already been disproven, to the point of being boring. it's the "atheist Achilles heel" like Ray Comfort's banana

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>>54666376
I mean, at a certain point, hippies/hipsters/beatniks were perceived as being violent troublemakers who frequently got in trouble with authorities.

And if you wanted to go full Commie Jesus, violently driving away money grubbing merchants would fit well would revolutionary Marxism, given the emphasis on armed revolution and the overthrowing of the bourgeois.

That said, framing your perception of Jesus around just one incident and ignoring the bigger picture is a pretty big theological error, given that Jesus called upon his followers to follow his example.

>>54667845
Sheol, The Grave, The Place Beyond the Tomb. It has many names. In fact according to the Bible Sinners do not go to Hell, they go to Sheol until judgement day. While those saved through Christ do go to Heaven as showcased by the repentant sinner on the cross who has his promise from Jesus that he will see him in heaven that day.

Also somethings cool all references of the Angel of the Lord in The Old Testament is an appearance of The Pre-Incarnate Christ. Joshua saw him as the Commander of the Lord's Armies, holding a sword, and accepting worship. Which is something no Angel does.

Another appearance of the Pre-Incarnate Christ is in Daniel. King Nebuchadnezzar tosses the three into the furnace but is amazed
"But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.”

Theophany is interesting

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>>54668118
>it's because it's already been disproven

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>>54668118
>it's because it's already been disproven, to the point of being boring.

>>54667158
>>54667186
>>54667209
Ha-Satan, Shaitan, Satanael, Lucifer, etc are all names used for the adversarial spirit-being inciting evil in men's hearts. None of them are "real names" in the sense that they're all titles of one kind or another.
Modern Judaism likes to pretend it never had that (or a hell where Jesus Christ supposedy boils eternally in excrement if you believe the Talmud) but then modern judaism has little to nothing to do with pre-Temple 2 Judaism. (as evinced by being led by Rabbis rather than Priests and having most of their theology be a medieval reaction to Christianity's rise)

>>54668058
But it's a bet and not a choice because there is more than one religion.
What if muslims or jews are actually right? it's not a choice if it's just a bet.
It's kinda an autistic argument because it fails to a a adress the existence of other religions or to go beyond the false binary choice "of my religion - not of my religion" in the head of the believer.

>>54667675
>the part of Josephus' writings on Jesus most widely agreed to be original and not tampered with later by Christians is about the actual Christ figure being Jesus' brother James

And yet you don't see Christfags changing thwir beliefs to match the closest thing to direct evidence they have about their object of worship. This shows that they're just looking for stuff that confirms their existing beliefs and they're happy to ig ore everything else.

Who wants to start the church of Jimmy Christ with me?

>>54668072

Please give me the vast historical evidence outside of the bible for Jesus. I believe the vast historical evidence for Gaius Julius Caesar will outweigh it by a ratio of 1:0.

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>>54668011

>>54667345
A contract isn't made moral by being agreed on beforehand.
A pound of flesh or a life for coins isn't made okay by a signature.
>O MAH GOD YOU IS SO EVUL N SHIET
Yes, you are. As almost all societies in history would agree with.

>>54668158
Well than crap

But I believe that god is good, and hopefully I can be saved

>>54668158
If we include all dead religions, and all possible religions that nobody ever followed, the odds of any one religion being right by brute probability alone are truly negligible.

>>54668079
Because first guy was stupid and second guy was answering an actual fedora?

>>54667670
All you have to do to dispel the idea of a physical Jesus that forms the basis of this religion is read Paul, and also consider the myriad cults and weird religions that prop up which posit individuals that never existed but are still worshipped. Scientology is the most recent big name religion, and its all a crock of made up scifi shit by a dude who made a literal bet to form a religion.

And Nazareth as a city didn't exist until sometime after 150 AD, as it is never mentioned in any travelogues or maps of the era. An early noble convert did a pilgrimage, of which we have rather extensive artifacts and writings, and their map doesn't include it. However, the nearby ruins of a city (at the time being lived in) are mentioned, but not in any connection to Christianity.

Current excavatiosn show it to be an former Jewish graveyard on one side of the valley and a very large vineyard on the other.

>>54668163
>Jesus' brother Bob is actual biblical canon
Monty Python has done it again.

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>>54667605

>>54668127
>>54668142
>*cross tipping intensifies*
Blablabla, First Cause is the First Cause so we MUST call it God and it proves that God-Jesus and the Bear is real, ramen.

Here is something else interesting. According to Zephaniah 3:17 God The Father Likes to Sing. "will rejoice over you with singing"

>>54668180
Yet you wouldn't say anything if it was a religousfag being like that.
Always double-standards.

>>54668079
Kant and Hume both challenged the Quinque viæ. You are right in that they didn't "completely disprove" it, though, but when the counterargument to their arguments is "y-you just didn't GET Aquinas, man", it's hard to take it seriously.

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>>54668144
>or a hell where Jesus Christ supposedy boils eternally in excrement if you believe the Talmud
You can find out how that's taken out of context here >>54667448

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>>54668122
That's some good looking bread

>>54668241
>and the bear

I fucking see what you did there.
Glad someone else understands the holy trinity of the Father, the Son, and Leonard Bearstein.

>>54667345
No they weren't honest lenders, they were more like loan sharks.

>>54668222
All of those writers the Bible included, were almost a century at the least after Jesus was supposed to have lived, and at that point they were commenting on the religion and not the man. Nobody's doubting that the religion is real.

>>54668262
why wouldn't i have double standarts lol? i'm not some grey centrist piece of shit, opinions beget bias, and that's only natural. would you let a stranger insult your mother even if he were justified?

i don't think i ever got an answer, i was told that yahweh was originally el-elyon that was then replaced by marduk, but both of those are babylonian gods, i saw in this thread that it was actually the canaanite gods that are more accurate, so who in the canaanite faith turned into yahewh? unless the babylonians and canaanites worshiped the same gods

>>54668343
Yes

>>54668338
So you were a /pol/tard all along?

>>54664975

Hmm, one time, in a sorcery competition with Egypt's greatest magician, Moses turned his staff into a snake which devoured the snakes the magician summoned, proving Yahweh to be superior to Egypt's idols.

>>54665922

/pol/tard here, cease and desist your near-endless incessantly off-topic false-flag shitposting you reddit-addicted cuckolded newfaggot of a pale-skinned double nigger

>>54668343
YHWH was their God of War

>>54668110

For someone who's not Christian, you sure are defending it pretty hard.

>>54668222

For Josephus, I already linked why that's not a valid thing. As for the rest, they're pretty much all written a century after the fact, and covering the religion.

>>54668343

While I know a good chunk of the generals, in this area I don't know the details, most of my detailed myth/religion knowledge is IE, not Semitic.

>>54668267
That picture more or less agrees that it's what it says except that there's "doubt" that it really refers to Christ. (except to us who've read the thing know full well that it refers to Yehoshua and calls him a sorcerer and speaks of his mother Mary as an adulterous whore, fully justifying why the Catholics saw fit to burn Talmuds when they first came across them)

>>54667682
>Allah has no son.
I think anon meant that as a metaphorical "everyone is a child of God"

>>54667814
Hi Resheph.

>>54667814
>what are angels

>>54668382
>I already linked why that's not a valid thing.
Not really, you just tried handwaving away it by talking about James whom the Catholics and Orthodox actually do recognize.
>covering the religion.
Tacitus talks about Christ specifically in regards to Pilate.

are Djin different than demons and which did solomon control? are the tales of solomon where the genie in the lamp tales came from?

>>54668264
Yeah, and Kant and Hume's """"reasoning""" is that causes in the universe don't come from causes outside the universe, which is nonsense, because that implies that things were just always there floating around being caused by itself. That's basically homonculus fallacy.

The first cause within the universe has to be caused by something outside the universe because otherwise, how would it exist in the first place? It's like if you find a computer cycling through youtube videos. Why is it cycling through videos? Was it always cycling through them infinitely backwards? No, you have to know that someone activated it.

>>54668382
I can understand why someone could be christian. I can understand why someone could be buddhist or muslim or animist. It's real fucking hard for me to understand why soneone could be an odinist

>>54668386
Even if it werent' vague, and it were 100% confirmed that the passage were referring to Jesus, you'd still be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

The talmud is made up of two parts: the mishna, and the gemara. The Mishna is the interpretation that is the most "correct;" the ones that are best defended, most widely believed, and supported by the best rabbies. The Gemara is the opposite: it's the least correct interpretations of the oral law, included simply because we don't know/it could be right/there's no point not to include it and risk forgetting it when we might need to know it one day.

The passage we're talking about is one of the most obscure, least respected passages from the Gemara. Nobody fucking believes that passage. Even the rabbi who fucking canonized the talmud didn't believe that passage.

>>54668445
Djinn are different than demons. When God created Adam from earth/clay, he created the Djinn from "smokeless fire."

Solomon's demons, however, are actual demons. Not Djinns or anything.

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>>54668355

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>>54668355

And you are out of arguments so you've fallen back on name calling.

get fucked!

>>54668500
so djinn arent evil and from hell? i'm assuming djinn are exclusive to islam

>>54668454
Funny thing about nothing, mathematically its unstable, prone to giving rise to something. Besides, the "before" of reality doesn't have to be beholden to common sense ideas about cause and effect, as time is meaningless before there is space. Not to mention virtual particles which spontaneously arise and annihilate, and may be what kicked started the universe. Or two branes touching and sparking our reality. We will never know, as this is such a huge scientific problem, but it has plenty of hypotheses of which god is the most trite and simultaneously simplistic and far too complex to be a proper answer.

>>54668541
>djinn
Yeah, exclusive to Islam

>>54668500

Djinn are also as capable of good or evil as humans are, which is a big separation from demons.

>>54668541
Djinn are fairly neutral. Shaitan (muslim satan), however, is evil. When God created Adam and the Djinn, God commanded the Djinn to bow to Adam. All of them did, except for Shaitan; he claimed he was superior to Adam, since Adam was made of earth, yet he was made of fire.

>>54668445
Djinns are like the Fae, they are neutral beings without the Original Sin but most tribes of the former are free to choose God or not like humans while a few are collectively bound to the Devil by choice.
The latter are all collectively neutral and so out of reach from both Heaven and Hell and somewhat souless but many still serve the Devil, some are good and a few even seeks redemption. (A few early european saints are actually fully redeemed Fae)

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>>54668368
>/pol/tard here
>thinking this somehow increases your standing in this discussion

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>>54666360
>250 imperial Jedi Knights

>>54668158
>What if muslims or jews are actually right?
If you're a Christian and the Muslims are right you might be okay, a lot of their traditions are about shit like AND THEN JESUS IS GONNA GO TO THEM CHRISTIANS AND MAKE THEM ALL MUSLIMS YEAH, particularly their end times stuff. So Allah might give you a pass.

If you're a Christian or a Muslim, then it depends on if you count as Noahide or not. Noahide gentiles get into heaven as second class citizens, and it's actually a point of debate on whether Christians and Muslims innately count due to their morals lining up nicely with the Noahide laws, or whether they don't because believing in Mohammad and/or Jesus in any way is supposedly idolatry. For the record, a lot of the most butthurt anti-Christian rabbis like to say Christianity is actually polytheism so fuck them Christians, basically.

>>54668500
>Solomon's demons, however, are actual demons. Not Djinns or anything.
Muslims like to pretend they were all djinns but honestly he used the powers of both.

>>54667448
You fucking retard. I link directly to the source. At no point does it refute the quote.

>The Gemara challenges: But if so, let the tanna count this prohibition among the seven Noahide mitzvot. The Gemara explains: According to the one who says that the verse is referring to the Torah as an inheritance, this prohibition is included in the prohibition of robbery, as a gentile who studies Torah robs the Jewish people of it. According to the one who says that the verse is referring to the Torah as betrothed, as the spelling of the Hebrew word for betrothed [me’orasa], is similar to that of the word for inheritance [morasha], the punishment of a gentile who studies Torah is like that of one who engages in intercourse with a betrothed young woman, which is execution by stoning.

>>54668552
>Funny thing about nothing, mathematically its unstable, prone to giving rise to something.
Okay, so you have a number: 0
Now, if I just wait around long enough, without performing any operations on it (and taking the role of the prime mover), it'll just spontaneously flip to 1 or greater? That 0 seems pretty stable to me.

>Besides, the "before" of reality doesn't have to be beholden to common sense ideas about cause and effect, as time is meaningless before there is space.
Logic is immutable though, it doesn't change. If A then A. If A = B then B = A. And various complications of this. It's not based in observation at all.

>Not to mention virtual particles which spontaneously arise and annihilate, and may be what kicked started the universe. Or two branes touching and sparking our reality. We will never know, as this is such a huge scientific problem, but it has plenty of hypotheses of which god is the most trite and simultaneously simplistic and far too complex to be a proper answer.
This only speaks to a cause which we don't have the means of measuring yet. This is a completely theoretical field of science, and can't conclude that anything observed is completely causeless, since to declare that, we would need to be omnipotent. We know there are dimensions and energy wavelengths we can't see or measure, so it's unreasonable to say that anything observed is causeless.

>>54668673
see >>54668475

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>>54668475
Pic related was one of judaism's main religious leaders

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>>54668736
Also, here's one of the more obscure rituals in judaism, passed down from their time in babylonian captivity, learnt from pagans.

>>54668343
In Caananite religion, he was merely named El. The name El was really common as a deity name in the area, and while the Babylonians and Canaanites didn't worship the exact same god, their religions are similar. El is not El-Elyon, but they are both cultural descendents of the original proto-deity.

>>54668736
Racist.

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>>54668754

thanks to all who have answered my questions

another one, did Alexander the Great destroy the Tower of Babel?

>>54668158
What's funny is that if Judaism is right, then since Muslims technically count as Noahides, they are on safer grounds than Jews themselves are.

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>>54668766
Here's another book on this tradition, which was also written by an actual jew.

>>54668779
>Alexander the Great destroy the Tower of Babel
No, God did.

It tells you that directly in the original text.

>>54668475
The Gemara is not in anyway a least correct interpretation of the oral law. It is simply a compilation of large amounts of rabbinical analysis. Not one rabbi refutes the opinion given in that part.

>>54668691
>Now, if I just wait around long enough, without performing any operations on it (and taking the role of the prime mover), it'll just spontaneously flip to 1 or greater?
In a sense yes. It involves math far greater than Im capable of understanding, but essentially yes.

Logic breaks down when you don't have a forward or backward. When you're literally missing the dimension that is integral for cause to become effect, cause and effect don't work. Space is literally time. There is a reason it's always referred to as spacetime nowadays. There is no "before". For all we know spacetime may have always existed, and we are merely the 1 to the googolplex iteration of the universe.

Ignorant men from a time where science didn't exist are not the answer to the beginning of the universe. They are merely the people to which those who prefer simple answers seek their balm.

>>54668822
i know that's what the bible says, but the bible says god exists because the bible says he does. i've seen claims that it was actually Alexander

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>>54666360
>They have an interstellar empire but only bring 30000 troops

You can tell they were created from the Protokangdoms.

>>54668779
Of course.
Why do you think his asian-hellinistic empire fell after his death?

>>54668762
Crimethink

>>54668582
Are there any christian stories detailing where the fae came from/why they exist? I know there are plenty for trolls, and the djinn's origin is well known, but now western and central european fae.

ITT
>JEEEEWWWSSS
>ATHIESTS
>Not Interesting Things

>>54668866
fae aren't biblical are they? i thought they were from norse mythology that the chrisitians used for boogeymen

>>54667775
Your church wuz racis

>>54668866
Fae are the ghosts of dead pagans who died before Christianity came to the British isles.

>>54667775
>Now I'm not everyone, but if I stay on the straight and narrow I will adventually become a god.
Now where have I heard this before? Hmmm...

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Literally the first lie ever told

>>54668879
Fae are Welsh. I don't know where the Welsh got 'em from.

>>54668760
>>54668370 says that yahweh was the god of war for the canaanites, did the name change in the same way El Elyon became Marduk?

>>54667727
Really? That sounds pretty shitty and meaningless to me.

>>54668736
Yeah, of mizrachis and charedim. I'm not defending those dogs.

>>54668828
Hense why correct was in inverted commas. No one refutes that specific part because it wasn't an argument. It was just one rabbi telling a story about Emperor Nero's brother, the necromancer.

>>54668754
>>54668766
>>54668805
(((you)))

>>54668879
No, but Christians still believed in them and thus logically would have invented stories for why they exist.

The mythological beings of Norse mythology and Northern European myth in general survived largely as the concept of spirits and trolls, which they often had origin stories for (stuff like them being peoples who were cursed by god for some slight but who can seek redemption and go to heaven). In Western and Central Europe, these beings evolved into the concept of fairy/fae.

>>54668940
Fae/fey is used to collectively refer to similar traditions throughout western and central Europe, even if the word is Welsh.

>>54668897
That might be the British story, but what about elsewhere?

>>54668983
>Emperor Nero's brother, the necromancer.

what? that sounds metal

>>54668977
The original version was a lot more subtle and an lot less shit. That's just a /b/ retelling of the original copypasta (which I sadly do-not have).

>>54668805
>To forestall all possible misinterpretation, I shall summarize the subject and the scope of my research. First, I shall clarify that I have no doubts that the so called "ritual homicides or infanticides" pertain to the realm of myth; they were not rites practiced by the Jewish communities living and working in the German-speaking lands or in the North of Italy, and of which they were accused in the Middle Ages and the periods thereafter. That of ritual murder is and always has been a slanderous stereotype. Nevertheless, one cannot exclude the possibility that certain criminal acts, disguised as crude rituals, were indeed committed by extremist groups or by individuals demented by religious mania and blinded by desire for revenge against those considered responsible for their people’s sorrows and tragedies.

http://www.medievalists.net/files/08111401.pdf

>>54668866
It's a lot of folklore and the catholic church altered the tradition too much, but the British Isles have better remnants of these and the christian traditons were far less hostile and friendly at times. (Mainly the times of St Patrick and the King Arthur)

>>54668832
>Ignorant men from a time where science didn't exist are not the answer to the beginning of the universe.
I hope you realize that science wasn't invented just this century, and that logic and mathematics have existed since the dawn of human civilization.

>They are merely the people to which those who prefer simple answers seek their balm.
You've gone full fedora. Never go full fedora.

Your answer hinges far more on mysticism than anything I'm saying. I'm saying: if something exists, it's logical that it has a cause. That cause has to extend past our universe if we follow the chain of causality long enough. You're going on about "it's just crazy, we like, can't even understand it. There's no such thing as logic sometimes. If nothing exists then poof man. Everything's different"

You're just hiding behind a thin veil of supposed """"""science""""" to hide this mysticism and complete abandonment of logic.