On Half-Races and Mules

In Pathfinder's Golarion, you don't have to have an elven parent to be a half-elf. Just someone in your ancestral lineage at some point.

Multiple player races are a gimmick imo. If you're going to have different 'races' and not just distinct cultures of humans, keep them incompatible.

>>54652581
>you don't have to have an elven parent
That would certainly seem to imply some dominant/recessive gene stuff, which could potentially lead into the race-soup described above.

I agree that if there are multiple races that they should be incompatible. The point of this post was more to try to logically deduce what incompatible humanoid races would mean in terms of their attraction. Traditional depictions of many races include breasts as a secondary sex characteristic for females, but this could be problematic with incompatible races, as it would mean being attracted to a target you can't produce fertile offspring with. I suppose that individuals would end up being attracted more to race-specific sources of sexual dimorphism, like orcs to tusks?

>>54652547
"Because the fertility goddess said so"

>>54652547
>I like to use real-world scientific background where possible
You're doing it wrong

>>54652547
I always liked the ElderScrolls version, where the offspring is the mothers race plus a few minor attributes of the father.

>>54652725
I'm aware it's silly, but can lead to interesting thought experiments. It's also handy when filling in cracks in worldbuilding if you have some solid foundation to rely upon other than "because magic". IE I probably use default gravitational constants, because it's not worth it to reinvent the wheel.

>>54652739
This is a very solid option, though it does weird things as far as relative pressure on males versus females for maintaining race populations. Does allow for weird things like warrior-women races that have children with men from a wide variety of races, but always produce offspring of their own race.

I sort of like just having the human quirk being they're the only race that can have demi-human kids

>>54652547
>Over the course of hundreds of years, wouldn't this lead to races being disgusted at the thought of copulation with any other race, thus making cross-race seduction basically impossible?
If attraction was solely based on genetics sure. Problem is it isn't.

>>54652892
In all but the loosest and immoral places, it would be seen as shameful. A dwarf with a human wife would be laughed at behind his back, and quite possibly to his face. Same goes to any other coupling.

>>54652725
No he isn't, it is a choice with advantages and disadvantages as well well as tonal impact, like most other things.

>>54652833
I think it's somewhat inelegant, because it puts humans in the center of the web, like a dedicated baseline protagonist race (which granted they are often supposed to be).

>>54652892
While not "solely" based on genetics, there is a biological response to certain parts of anatomy, and that's really what I was getting at.

>>54652547
horse + donkey = mule = infertile. your guess about evolving to strongly prefer your own species is accurate (if not a biological imperative likely a cultural norm), but people are into all sorts of shit. I'd be surprised if any fantasy society were accepting enough to not consider these people freaks and their offspring even more so.

>>54652547
>Over the course of hundreds of years, wouldn't this lead to races being disgusted at the thought of copulation with any other race, thus making cross-race seduction basically impossible?

Or the ability to have sex with no risk of unwanted children would make interspecies sex a common pastime.

>>54652547
>Both this "half-races aren't fertile" idea and simply "races can only reproduce with other individuals of their own races" runs into the nasty issue of attraction. Which is to say, in either of these cases, being attracted to a member of another race and pairing with them will produce no fertile offspring to carry on your genes, thus removing you from the genepool. This would mean that only individuals who very specifically were only attracted to their own races would pass on their genes. Over the course of hundreds of years, wouldn't this lead to races being disgusted at the thought of copulation with any other race, thus making cross-race seduction basically impossible?
This is by far the more interesting scenario. As for making cross-race seduction impossible, fucking please. You damn well know the sorts of degenerate things people can get up to. Consequence-less sex is nothing to sneer at

>>54652547

What are those races? I assume (ltr) Dwarf, Gonme, Elf, Human, something, Orc, something.

What are the two somethings?

>>54653074
Oh yeah. Bestiality is a thing, I see no reason why there wouldn't be some tiny subset of individuals in any given race who were into having sex with members of other races, at least partly out of the taboo of it.

>>54653078
I suppose it would depend on how monogamous the individuals involved were, and the degree to which the availability of inter-species sex decreased one's drive to reproduce with their own race.

>>54653154
Wouldn't it be like a talking dog trying to seduce you? Not saying some people wouldn't go for it, just that it might be more difficult.

>>54653290
Dwarf, Halfling, Elf, Human, Gnome, Orc, Halfelf

>>54653315
>the deer is giving you the fuck-me eyes, would you do it?

>>54652547
>Both this "half-races aren't fertile" idea and simply "races can only reproduce with other individuals of their own races" runs into the nasty issue of attraction. Which is to say, in either of these cases, being attracted to a member of another race and pairing with them will produce no fertile offspring to carry on your genes, thus removing you from the genepool. This would mean that only individuals who very specifically were only attracted to their own races would pass on their genes. Over the course of hundreds of years, wouldn't this lead to races being disgusted at the thought of copulation with any other race, thus making cross-race seduction basically impossible?
>>54652690
>Traditional depictions of many races include breasts as a secondary sex characteristic for females, but this could be problematic with incompatible races, as it would mean being attracted to a target you can't produce fertile offspring with.
Homosexuality exists

>>54653315
>Wouldn't it be like a talking dog trying to seduce you?
In many fantasy settings it is something looking like a pretty human, just with pointy ears trying to seduce you. Effectively that can be much the same like the human woman who can't get pregnant since loosing her first child hitting on you.

>>54653391
The point of the initial argument is that, given a tendency towards serial-monogamy, there is an overall loss of reproductive fitness if an individual is interested in pairing with a member of a race with which they cannot reproduce, and as such over a very long period of time each race would evolve to not be interested in pairing with other races. Hence the point at the end of the OP about being disgusted at the idea of sex with another race.

>>54653435
Because people only have sex for children, right?

>>54653473
We're talking evolutionary biology here. With serial-monogamy, individuals only pair with one other individual at a time. Now imagine Person A who is attracted to opposite-sex individuals of all races, and Person B who is attracted primarily to their own race. Person B will end up spending more of their time with individuals with which they can produce fertile offspring, and is thus more likely to successfully pass along their genes to later generations, including the genes that may predispose them to preferring the company of their own race. This same process also works (to some degree) with the cultural aspect of attraction, as Person B has more children to instill their values in, thus increasing the chances that their ideologies and views of other races also are passed into the next generation.

Continue this process long enough, and it becomes the norm for the society to prefer only pairing with members of their own race. Sure, individual people might still be into weird stuff relative to the norm, or occasionally experiment, but the societal norm would be same-race pairing.

>>54653435
That assumes exclusive monogamy.
And that positive traits in a partner, which are beneficial for survival are not exhibited by the other race.
The muscular Orc gives a false positive to instincts that serve the selection of a strong mate and are thus retained through the generations. Because most of the time it works out and a human partner is found.
So it isn't all that clear cut.

Sterile mules seem to be a weird fetish that occasionally pops up on /tg/.

>>54652547
Dude people will try to fuck anything their can fit into or inside them, and what they can't they will fantasize about. You are on 4chan for god's sake, you should know this.

>>54653530
It's worth noting that the initial axioms for that line of reasoning were both that:
A. It is impossible for individuals of different races to produce fertile offspring
and
B. Races tend towards either exclusive or serial monogamy

I agree though about it not being clear-cut, especially in cases like what you pointed out about muscular physique. A normal human female would normally be attracted to such, which would be problematic from a reproductive-fitness point of view. So either human females would evolve to not be attracted to such (which is a can of worms itself), or perhaps to be conditionally attracted to them, such as requiring another feature on the target, or being particularly disgusted by features possessed by other races?

>>54653515
>Continue this process long enough, and it becomes the norm for the society to prefer only pairing with members of their own race. Sure, individual people might still be into weird stuff relative to the norm, or occasionally experiment, but the societal norm would be same-race pairing.
This just sounds like an interesting setting to me.

>>54653568
There is also mutual "domestication".
Individuals able to tolerate the other species more can be less likely to be killed in fights against them. And mixed groups can benefit survival chances by combining the specializations of two species.

>>54653586
It does immediately lend itself towards a number of additional interesting world-features, such as:

1. If any given race is a local minority, they need a way to seek out other members of their race with which to reproduce. Birdsong is one example of how this issue is solved in real life. More practically, there would likely be a strong tendency towards insular racial communities, with individuals of any given race all living in the same area of town. Smaller minorities still would have certain areas of town which they would frequent (lizardfolk-only bars, etc.) with which to meet others of their own race.

2. So much racism. The inherent disgust towards other races would definitely have some nasty side-effects.

3. Eccentric individuals who do cross-racial romances anyway. As has been pointed out, this could be due to the taboo nature of such a relationship, simply being a weird fetish, or due to individuals being demi-sexual or similarly attracted primarily to personalities (assuming that these are similar enough to be compatible).

4. This setup might be a legitimate reason for "Elf Kingdom", "Dwarf Kingdom" etc. which is normally considered somewhat cliche.

>>54653619
I hadn't considered this. It would be far safer and more stable in the long-run than widespread fear and disgust. So more of an attitude of a very intelligent dog, as opposed to a hideous slug-thing. Something you can befriend and work with, but the average person wouldn't want to bang.

>>54653586
>>54653630
That doesn't seem that unusual to me.

Since Dhampirs are a separate race (in most settings) created by a vampire and a mortal race, what happens when they have children?

>>54652547
>being attracted to a member of another race and pairing with them will produce no fertile offspring to carry on your genes, thus removing you from the genepool. This would mean that only individuals who very specifically were only attracted to their own races would pass on their genes. Over the course of hundreds of years, wouldn't this lead to races being disgusted at the thought of copulation with any other race, thus making cross-race seduction basically impossible?
considering gays exist irl, I'm gonna say "no".

>>54653550
>>54653697
I suppose I should have specified that we're talking about the average member of any given race. There's always going to be a small percentage of individuals with deviations in genetics and/or environment that can lead to attractions to basically anything.

This is really a secret racism thread when it comes down to it.

>>54653713
As a gay I would like to back this up by saying we are only about 2% of the population

>>54653737
I'd prefer it be a secret evolutionary biology thread.

>>54653752
you can't post evolutionary biology on a good christian board

>>54653685
I've never seen rules, or even a bit of lore, for Dhampir/Vampire children, but everything I've seen for Human/Dhampir kid gives them a longer lifespan. Maybe some slight physical advantages, but nothing outrageous.

Sterile mules come about due to the number of chromosomes on the resultant offspring. If the offspring has an odd number then they're shooting blanks. If, for example, elves had fifty chromosomes then half elves would be potentially fertile but quarter or three quarter elves aren't. This also means that half elves themselves can breed amongst themselves without little issue. If you wanted you could make orcs forty four, which makes half orcs sterile for the contrast. Interestingly this means that half elf-orc pairings would be viable. It's up to you what that winds up being. Maybe that's the key to a half orc race that can continue on its own.

>>54653752
Evolutionary biology doesn't work that way, otherwise we wouldn't have animals fucking animals they can't breed with or produces mules which happens far more than you may realize. The need to want to stick your dick in something far overpowers any desire to produce fertile offspring, and that seems pretty universal across all species.

>>54652547
You could always go "fuck science" with the TES route. Children are the race of the mother, but over enough successive generations you can get fully separate half-races like the Bretons. At least between men and mer (elves/orcs)--there's not a lot of data on relationships between beast races (argonians/khajiit) and others.

Look up how argonians and khajiit reproduce if you want some trippy ideas (involves tree-sap transformations and the phases of the moon).

>>54652547
You can actually have different species produce fertile offspring. It's extremely rare and requires that the two species have chromosomes that just happen to be exactly compatible, but it can happen. Llamas and camels, despite separating from the las common ancestor over a million years ago, can produce fertile hybrid offspring. Also the infamous "killer bees" are hybrids of regular honeybees and African bee species. If I recall correctly, a fertile mule is also theoretically possible, but extremely rare and can only happen when the mother is a horse and father a donkey.

>>54653630
>"Elf Kingdom", "Dwarf Kingdom" etc. which is normally considered somewhat cliche
I don't see why it would be. A group that was not only a culture but a distinct species from other inhabitants of the same planet/continent/whatever wouldn't be in vey good shape if they existed primarily as isolated diaspora communities. Obviously groups like this do exist (Tuareg-style nomads, Roma, jews to a certain extent) but for the most part most members of a culture will live in a specific geographic area, and through a sense of basic tribalism if nothing else will want to settle their own affairs and be able to resist incursion by other groups.

Unless you were referring to settings where there is a single politiy for even major, widespread races, which I would say is more just lazy worldbuilding than a cliche, though I think it can be cool. In my setting there used to be many warring goblin principalities as well as nomadic tribes, and the settled Goblins united into a single empire China-style. This lead to a very early version of 19th and 20th century ethnic nationalism, and currently the goblin empire is creating a revolt in a territory of the not!Gaelic kingdom mostly populated by Goblins (there's also a large Goblin minority population in the kingdom's capital) because it considers itself the Empire of all Goblins.

>>54653713
ignoring homosexuality, for much of human history racial/ethnic groups have mostly stayed relatively homogenous, and in much of the world interracial pairings either are stigmatized or were until very recently stigmatized. But in some places the stigma is going away, and this is predictably accompanied by a rise in interracial pairings.

If attraction is mostly genetic and only small outliers deviate from that, how do you explain this? I'm only bringing this up because you're wanting your setting to follow real world rules to a certain extent. What you've laid out already is more realistic than most settings, I just want to help provide a broader perspective.

File: cama.jpg (271KB, 800x523px) Image search: [Google]

271KB, 800x523px

>>54653838
>"Llamas and camels, despite separating from the las common ancestor over a million years ago, can produce fertile hybrid offspring"
>wut.jpg
>google "llama camel hybrid"
>actually exists, called a "Cama"
Fascinating.

Kind of unrelated, but am I the only one who hates that they just jam the names of the two animals together to name the hybrid? Like, it works I guess, it's just such a missed opportunity for coming up with a new name. Think how much better "mule" is than "dorse".

>>54654036
>/d/orse
Terrifying beasts.

>>54654036
Honkey exists though

I like the idea of interspecies breeding.
But I also like the idea of infertile offsprings, since I feel like it can add to the roleplaying.
But I also think it may not apply to every race or individual, since there is still magic involved.

>>54652581
>Multiple player races are a gimmick imo. If you're going to have different 'races' and not just distinct cultures of humans, keep them incompatible.

Yeah, because in a realm where Wizards exist and Gods walk among mortals there is no possible way that two separate species can conceive a child together.

Do you even know what an owlbear is?

>>54653078
I can definitely see Nobility taking advantage of this with different species consorts and mistresses in order to prevent a bunch of illegitimate bastards.

>>54653809
The other thing about mules is that they aren't always sterile. Isn't there a female liger that successfully gave birth?

Plus, everyone is forgetting MAGIC. I am pretty damn sure that if you find someone who is strong enough, and throw enough coins at them, then they can make all of your reproductive problems go away.

So real life rules or high fantasy rules, there's always a way.

>Dwarf and Elf fall in love
>Neither Dwarf nor Elf can conceive children together
>Dwarf pays human woman to let him impregnate her for her child
>Uses fertility magic to make sure it's a girl for dem wide childbearing hips
>Elf rapes a human male until pregnant
>Uses fertility magic to make sure it's a boy
>Elf and Dwarf raise the children to be in an arranged marriage
>Dwarf uses fertility magic to make sure his daughter passes on as much of her dwarven bloodline as possible
>Elf uses fertility magic to make sure her son passes on as much of his elven heritage as possible
>The children conceived are 40% dwarvish, 40% elvish, and only 20% human
>Dwarf and Elf happily raise their biological grandkids as their own children long after their "Nanny" and "Tutor" die of old age