Medeival Political Intrigue? What to play?

>>54637958
Good luck trying to explain medieval life and politics to your players. They'll either act like everything then was just like muh videogame stories or try to push thier modern political beliefs.

>>54638739
Exactly. The best thing to do is look at what happened to reformists like Wat Tyler and just do that to your PCs.

>>54638739
This. You actually need a quite deep historical knowledge to pull interesting middle ages off.

Why not a French Revolution/Napoleonic timeframe. More relatable and even better intrigue. Or even Restauration after your not 1848.

War is the natural state of mankind. If there's peace, is because something is stopping groups of humans from killing each other.

<OP
I have few players that know history, most of them think it is bad to beat your own child in medeival setting, I will have a lot of work on my hands. Luckily the politicly uneducated like the idea of monarchy in my country, so I got that one covered ._. .

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>>54638739
>>54638768
I think that only becomes a problem if you want to get really, really deep into political intrigue (as in political treatise levels of depth).

For the purpose of a campaign, you can explain it very easily: there are no political parties, whatever governing or advising party there is has nobles who mostly represent their own interests or the interests of their families. These interests can be contradictory to one another and even contradictory to the interests of the king(dom). Think for example of a duke who owns a shitton of fertile lands and estates to the south of the kingdom, which is at war with an agressive enemy to the north. He might desire that the kingdom loses the war, so a lot of land in the north is lost forcing everyone to buy wheat from the south, filling his coffers. You can imagine that this guy would oppose military reforms at least until the war is over.

>>54639308
*governing or advising BODY much like your mom kek

>>54637958
Song of Swords isn't boring you pleb.

Anyway, you're not gonna find anything obviously. You want something simulationist but you find simulationist games boring. You might as well use Pendragon or Burning Wheel.
>>54638768
Are you serious? You don't really think people are that dumb, do you?

>>54639551

>people are not that dumb

Actually try pulling off playing in a realistic fief structure. To actually get that shit you need to know the roman patron-client System and the paternal angle of the whole thing. Most people don't even have a clue about how long and diverse the middle Age was.

>>54639587
I'm sure most of us here do know. I'm sure anyone else could learn. Why are you so against trying moderately difficult things?

>>54637958
>I want something that fits this very specific criteria but don't suggest anything to me that actually fits the criteria
>._.

Kill yourself. I don't mean that in the ironic "ha ha internet mean jokes" way. I mean you should legitimately commit suicide. Do the world a favor, make the world a better place, and fucking end your life for real.

>>54639612

>could learn

You have very enthusiastic players...

>>54639658
I guess...? Unless you have the kind of players who adamantly refuse to learn anything becuz Pathfinder, you're gonna be alright.

>>54639643
>hurr durr I did not even read op
He said non-magical, how thick are you?

>>54639551
No one wants to read that thing, it is hudge. So no, fuck Song of Swords.

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>>54637958
use pendragon or harnmaster stripped off magic and fantasy races (which is feasible since it is relatively low magic anyway). other than that you have probably to resort to indie games like Thirty RPG, or, worse, some d20 hack.

>>54639889
>>54639643 was right.

>>54639832
What do you mean? OP said he didn't want systems that have magic and are boring without it, and then said he was sick of SoS (a system without magic).

>>54639942
SoS has mytical races in it? I have seen a draft f it t looked like it did have magic..

>>54640005
Nigger the whole game's based around the idea of historical roleplaying. It just also has optional fantastical elements for historically-based fantasy if you want to do that.

Is your complaint seriously that it's just a big document? That's gonna be a difficulty for anything /tg/ if that's your hangup...

>>54640028
I don't expect players that barely handle 5E D&D to understand anything else, took them a year to figure it out with several DMs. Also I don't want to read a hudge book an get dissapointed by it, I know how basic hand-to-hand combat works, how are skills resolved? And how long is charachter creation?

>>54640062
>I don't expect players that barely handle 5E D&D to understand anything else
Then give up now.

Character creation is pretty short. Maybe slightly longer than Legend of the Five Rings. Skills aren't anything special.

>>54640089
You have a pool to roll and you count sucsesses? That is how they work right?

>>54640136
Yep. It's quite simple, and quite similar to other games. The main deal is the combat system, which actually has pretty huge knock-on effects on roleplay out of character.

>>54640136
Actually what you want is a rules light system, OP. Elaborate rules mechanics take time and attention, away from the intrigue which should be the game's focus. Ideally even a freeform campaign would work the best as long as your players can agree to cooperate and compromise.

>>54640338
That.
I don't want combats to last for tens of minutes, they are lords not footies. I like the idea of abilities and disabilities, can SoS's combat system work without its meneuvers? People are not going to be happy about learning those.

>>54640330
>The main deal is the combat system, which actually has pretty huge knock-on effects on roleplay out of character.
like?

>>54640375
>>54640410
you can figure this stuff out for yourself OP, i'm bored of you

>>54637958

oWoD Vampire was good at this. GURPS has Social Engineering. Babylon 5 and Game of Thrones card games have a strong political component.

But the truth is that there's no system that will walk you through the intricacies of power politics. Partly such a system hasn't been invented. Partly intrigue demands a detailed understanding of the people, personalities, institutions, ideologies, and power structures of a setting. It's a game concept rife with exceptions, loopholes, unwritten rules, and conflicting goals. That all has to exist in the GM's head, and the players need to have a head for it, too.

Some reading that might help you:

James Clavell, Tai Pan and Shogun
George RR Martin, ASoIaF
Henry Kissinger, Diplomacy

HBO's series Rome was excellent for this.

I haven't read Edward Luttwak's book on Coups, I hear it's great but very dry. Beilenson' Power Through Subversion is a classic, but also a hard read.

Historical periods to read up on: the fall of the Roman Republic, the Fourth Crusade, the War of the Roses, the English civil war, the French revolution, the unification of Germany under Bismarck, and the Russian revolution, especially the story of how the Bolsheviks took over and elimated all the other larger and more popular factions.

>>54639587
The sad thing is, people are getting dumber and dumber about the Middle Ages with each and every passing year. History is one of the least-loved classes in the education system and I daresay it's due to both the disinterest of the (often liberal and female) teachers and the (often extremely liberal and apathetic) students.

I can't begin to count the number of (admittedly anecdotal) stories of teachers slathering their political beliefs wholesale into the curriculum, or insisting Cleopatra and Hannibal were black, or the Middle Ages don't really matter other than the atrocities committed by the Christians against the Muslims.

>>54637958
Burning Wheel
>Easy to remove all fantasy elements and guns (hell it's the recommended beginners way of playing)
>Social rolls can either be individual rolls or made into longer form contests with a detailed system of ways your character can argue for more important conflicts
>Combat can be resolved in a single roll if you want it to and is usually very dangerous
>Skill list is massive and the rules explicitly allow making up new ones (with GM approval)
>Makes the characters' goals, motivations, connections, reputations, and known personality traits absolutely central to the gameplay

>>54640698
you sicken me

>>54640892

He's right, though.

>>54641017
you sicken me

The Game of Thrones rpg (not the d20 one) fits your criteria OP.
No magic, skills based, basic system, focus on group intrigue.
Just replace the setting.

>>54639889
If only the system had a community with a roll20 page that would help you understand it. Besides, SoS's pdf is shorter than D&D 5e

>>54641021
That's good, anon. Feeling something about the state of our education system is better than feeling nothing at all.

>>54641372
>our
lol

>>54638795

What's up, Hobbes. How's your Leviathan?

>>54637958
Song of Swords?

>>54640670

I think that the subtext in what I am saying here is that a politics/intrigue game requires a certain kind of player. You can take a borderline player and get him up to speed, but many people just aren't suited to it. There are a lot of balls in the air at once in a game like this. Competing ideas, institutions, and individuals. Forget the tail wagging the dog; in politics everything wags everything else.

Hence the HBO Rome show. Caesar bribes some people openly, some indirectly. Some he decides he doesn't need. Some he intimidates. Some he flatters. Some he persuades via high-minded principles. Sometimes it's a leader, sometimes it's a group. Sometimes it's an influential functionary and the group follows him.

Some enemies he confronts and destroys. Some he forgives. Some he leaves wounded but alive. Some he flatters, and some he keeps close... and under surveillance. It's a subtle game, where you need clarity about broad policy and mindbumbingly unique specifics. The details matter intensely, but you have to know when not to get lost in them.

There's no extant system that lets you juggle all that. And players have to grasp the ideas as well or it won't work no matter how good the rules are.

>>54637958
>I want to run something fresh for my players without guns
So no full plate either?

>>54641845
nor even partial plate

>>54640892
>>54641021

You have a sensitive tummy. Try avoiding the salt and bile.

>>54642029
I LIKE the salt and bile

>>54640410
To quote one of the devs:

"I'd argue that combat is narrative in the sense that you're always roleplaying your character. In D&D Rogues are always going to go for the sneak attack. Every time, no variation. Don't care what you want your rogue to be, the second you're in combat it might as well be an auto-battling video game. (Yes you can chose to do inefficient things, but generally every reasonable action is just a repeat of the last combat).

The cool thing in SoS is two knights, even of similar builds, aren't going to necessarily fight the same way. Through the detail of combat, we unlock the player's ability to show more about your character.
You want your guy's thing to be that he's super defensive? You have a host of defensive maneuvers to chose from. You want your thing to be that you always cut off their arms? That combat/narrative choice is yours to make.

Because of how many choices you can make in combat, you're actually enabling narrative rather than restricting it, like some of the more 'simple' systems.

Additionally, because of how wounds persist and consequences of a fight gone bad can really linger (losing an eye or gaining a limp) I would also say that combat becomes narrative in that the after-effects are with you forever. Lose an eye? That's now a part of your character's story. it will impact the campaign.

Combat is what Song of Swords is all about--and through combat 'simulation' we create amazing narrative. You can't get that in the games that advertise themselves as 'narrative' and just gloss over combat with a one-and-done roll."

>>54642138
Also the high lethality of combat encourages players to avoid leaping into it, and if they do use it they're encouraged to properly stack the odds in their favour.

>>54640816
>ctrl+f "burning wheel"
my nigga

>>54642138
i like this approach

>>54640698
You're really claiming it's the fault of the evil liberals that conservative governments constantly slash education funding, which in turn forces schools to focus on practical things as opposed to the humanities?

>>54642309
Agreed.

>>54640698

You were wearing a helmet as you typed that weren't you?

fuck off back to /pol/, you fucking failed abortion.

>>54640644
>imblyin im OB

>>54640698
>its liberal women's fault people have been getting dumber since the middle ages
>have some annecdata!
lol

Legend of the 5 Rings is perfect for this. Just say "No Shugenja"

>>54640698

HAVE YOU NEVER TAKEN A FUCKING HISTORY CLASS IN YOUR FUCKING LIFE?

ONLY RECENTLY HAVE WE STARTED TO ACTUALLY MAKE OUR CLASSES ENGAGING AND THINKING OF WAYS TO TEACH HISTORY IN A WAY THAT ISN'T "write down dates" STOP BEING A FUCKING DUMBASS AND USE SOURCES THAT AREN'T FUCKING BRIETBART YOU STUPID COCK

>>54640816

Ooooo, didn't think of Burning Wheel. Burning Wheel would be perfect.

>>54645126
This is actually true.

>>54640698
No one likes /pol/ venturing out of containment, but the replies reminded me why I really like you fa/tg/uys.

>>54640698
I know it's trendy to think that colleges are rehabilitation camps, but you should really go visit one some day rather than repeating some shit you read on the internet.

>talking shit about Symbaroum
OP is a fag