/osrg/ Old School Revival General

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What's the simplest possible method you could think of to write up and give abilities to each class?

Like Fighters get +1 to hit every level? And then what would the other classes get?

Anyone else find OSR stuff easier to introduce to new players than something like 5e. What aspects make it noob friendly?

>>54615595
5e classes get a bunch of active abilities every level, while in OSR you just get some +1 to attack and look at a table

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>>54614470
See the attached PDF

>>54615584
Magic Users get +1 spell per day every level?

>>54615595
Considering I just finished running a public 5e (tactfully ignoring a bunch of rules and instead trying to run it as OSR as possible) game for free beers. I would say it encourages thinking based on what you imagine your character can do rather than what your character sheet allows you to do. Just like what >>54615640 said!

>>54615595
There are few options at character creation, and the options you do have are simple and straightforward pop culture archetypes.

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>>54615664

>the majority of the mechanics are taken directly from the GLOG

>>54615595
How 'easy' a game is for new players depends almost entirely on three things:

1. The complexity of the system.
2. How well the DM knows the system.
3. How skilled that DM is at teaching.

2/3 of those things are DM-centric rather than system-centric. 5e is a bit more complex in terms of rules than most OSR games.

Do you use a grid or 'theater of the mind'?

>>54615595
>>54615800
This guy has the right of it. Now, the complexity of the system does determine how fast and easily a GM can pick it up/keep the rules in his head, which comes down to personal preference and GMing style. Some GMs like lots of mechanics, others want the bare minimum, and there are many in between.

>>54615811
Grid. I can't keep track of anything without markers on paper.

>>54615811
Both, depending

If I've set up an encounter where spacing and exact footing matters, and/or the area is complicated and relevant, I'll use a grid

But most of the time theater of the mind is plenty good.

I feel like doing some random tables. Anyone have anything they'd like to see?

>>54615811
>>54616044
>I can't keep track of anything without markers on paper.
same here

>>54616152
Off Brand Healing Potions?

>>54616152
Constellations and their blessings.

>>54615811
Neither.

>>54616152
Expired treasure.
Subtable for expired magic.

>>54616298
>1d8 nearly adequate healing objects

1. Snake oil. Make a wisdom save; on failure, the drinker believes their injuries have been completely healed. They are not.

2. Abominable sludge; residue scraped off the bottom of a cauldron used in preparing healing potions. Heals as a normal potion if you can stomach consuming it; requires a CON save to choke down. You can repeat the save every time you take another injury.

3. Fairy-flesh. 'Heals' all injury with dreamstuff, but vanishes after the passage of a full day; the injuries return. Lasts forever in the timeless kingdoms of the fey. Song and story records many instances of mortally-wounded men taking revenge on their killers with it, expiring dramatically at dawn.

4. Potion of regeneration; accelerates the natural healing of the body 3x for a day, also increasing the consumption of rations 5x.

5. Pharmakon; made of improperly purified poisonous materials. Save vs. Poison or take damage equal to the potion's strength (in addition to the normal healing; even if you fail the save you may end up with a net gain.)

6. Some sort of egg. Swallow it whole. The thing inside will hatch, and restore your missing limbs to you. It will take flesh from the rest of your body to do so. Have conventional healing magic at hand. Something like a single finger is survivable for a man at full health. For something big like a leg, it will scoop out all of the organs in your torso.

7. Fraud. Registers as a normal healing potion to all common forms of detection, but does nothing.

8. Homeopathic. There is perhaps a single drop of genuine healing potion in this flask of water labeled as a healing potion. Still restores 1 hp, primarily through the placebo effect.

>>54616771
Your fairy flesh reminds me of how I do painkillers.

>>54616422
>d10 expired treasures

1. A cache of iron weapons and armor, buried to hide it for some future uprising. Sealed against the elements, but improperly. Nothing left but rust.

2. Art treasure. Urn, small statuary, tapestry, something of that nature. Of a long-past artistic movement, now considered hideously ugly in today's fashion climate.

3. Alchemical explosives. Unstable after long neglect. They are (d4):
a. Completely inert.
b. Mostly fine. Make mishaps a bit more likely.
c. Mostly inert. Damage is halved.
d. Volatile. When the players try to use it, roll on a mishap table.
A trained alchemist will be able to determine which.

4. Debased currency of a now-gone kingdom. No merchant will accept them as tender and the metal of their construction is mostly worthless.

5. A man, dead in an old spike trap. A diary on his person reveals him to have been a skilled duelist and minor nobility.

6. Some sort of clockwork bolt-thrower, like a crossbow but better. Years of abuse by dungeon denizens have taken their toll; it simply, sadly, falls apart when you try to use it.

7. Sensitive political documents, grade-A blackmail material. The people it concerns are all long dead.

8. Complete map of a nearby dungeon, including traps & secret passages. Dungeon has already been completely cleared of loot, likely by the same people that made the map.

9-10: roll on subtable.

>>54617214
>d8 expired magics

1. Vorpal enchantment came unglued and re-attached itself to a random object. In this case, a stick. Enchantment remains totally functional but it still has all the durability of a stick. Also, there's no way to pick it up without risking slicing your fingers off.

2. Magical dexterity-boosting ring. Inscribed 'to my beloved butterfingers' on the inside. Registers as magic but has no discernable effect when worn; the enchantment has all but faded away.

3. Hollow cane with screw-off head. Can accept most human-portable objects through the opening, somehow. Seems to have been intended to function as a bag of holding, but spits out any object placed within it after about a minute.

4. Contraption of hinged metal rods labeled 'crowbar'. Comes with attached instructions on how to open a temporary hole in a wall by arranging the device properly next to it. Does not work; instead, violently rips everything within ten feet, including itself, to shreds. A wizard may realize this beforehand with careful inspection of the apparatus, although repair will be much more difficult.

5. Some... thing? It is actively painful to look at (save to try and inspect it closely with sight, 1 damage on success). Inspection, probably tactile, reveals it to be a cloak. What it was supposed to do, you may never know.

6. Rack upon rack of potions. They have all been left unattended too long, and have turned into tiny oozes. Still trapped in their bottles. The bottles are clearly labeled with their former purpose; an impetuous drinker may gulp one down before realizing the labels are no longer accurate.

7. Magic Sword +1 vs. [x]. [x] changes every d6 days; assign a bunch of entries in your monster manual a number, roll a dice, that's what it's +1 against. An inscription on the side identifies it as 'Orcbane'.

8. Self-updating map of a nation that no longer exists. Vast swathes of nothing. Erases anything you try to write on it; the ink just slides off.

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I'm doing a Carcosa game with a heavily house ruled LotFP. I'm doing a "HP is superficial bruises, everything after goes to CON which heals at like 1 CON/ day" thing. Should I give every monster an extra Hit Die or something?

>>54617592
The hell are you given both sides extra hp for?
If you don't want to only buff one side, you're better off buffing neither.

>>54617592
Are you using some other system's monster manual?

>>54616334
Not my best work here, but here you go.
>d8 Constellations and blessings

1. Constellation: The Roaring River. In the east, near the horizon. A river flowing around stones, creating eddies.
Blessing: You are as the rock in the rapids, unmoved amidst chaos. +1 to morale checks.

2. The Sun's Herald. In the west. Quite bright, the last stars to disappear in the morning. A man holding a scroll.
Blessing: Light shall never be your enemy. Blinding light counts as one step lower.

3. The Rabbit. To the east, high in the sky. Relatively faint. Caught mid-leap.
Blessing: You will always be swift to dive out of danger. +1 to reflex saves, -1 morale.

4. The Astro-Liches. Six 'stars' orbiting around a central seventh. An artificial construction, mystic telescope for ancient wizards.
Blessing: You hear the whispering of alien spheres. You do not know what they're saying, but at some level you understand. +1 wisdom, -1 charisma.

5. The Hammer. In the east. Bright. Head down towards the earth, handle towards the sky.
Blessing: Crush all in your path. Hammers do one additional damage in your hands.

6. The Fallen Son. A Human figure, limp. In the south, near the horizon. A spear stabbed through him.
Blessing: He wants you to join him. -1 to saves vs. death.

7. Starvation. In the south. An abstract shape. Named and given shape by some nonhuman culture. Almost no human can point it out in the sky. Even carrying its blessing, you likely do not know of it at all.
Blessing: Creatures of chaos perceive you as kindred. +1 to reaction rolls with chaos-aligned entities, where applicable.

8. The Void. In the south. High in the sky. A region with no stars. It grows slightly, over time. Slow enough that people do not perceive it. Only an old stargazer can trace its expansion.
Blessing: Death holds no mysteries for you. +2 wisdom, -1 saves vs. death.

>>54617592
Hmm. If I were doing something like this, I would end up making significant revisions to the system. I'd probably slow hit dice progression so that every other level, you just got a +1. So 1st level you have 1 HD. 2nd level is 1+1. 3rd level is 2. 4th is 2+1 and so forth. That would keep hit points from getting out of hand (which is at least a bit of an issue in normal D&D, and is a bigger one if Con effectively adds 3 hit dice to every character). Using this slower progression, you'd end up with the same effective hit points (including Con in your system) at 7th level--though I'm guessing you'd have non-Con in your system healing go faster, so you'd really still have more at that point.

So in addition to this, I'd probably up weapon damage by at least a die level. d4 becomes d6. d6 becomes d8. d8 becomes d10. d10 becomes 2d6. 2d6 becomes 2d8. If I weren't slowing the hit dice progression, I might even just double damage (a longsword goes from d8 to 2d8), and eyeball damage spells, adding 1 die of damage to them on average. 6th level fireball? 7d6 damage. (Sure, this boost low-level spells more, percentagewise, with magic missile doing double damage, but the higher level spells would still be clearly superior, and a magic missile would be a lot less capable of dropping an unwounded low-level person even with the damage increase.)

Regardless of which way I did it (slowed hit dice progression with die-level boost to weapon damage, or standard hit dice progression with double weapon damage), I'd be tempted to increase monster hit dice to correspond to the boost characters got from Con. If you still wanted 1 HD monsters to go down fairly quickly, you could do something like this: add 3 HD to all monsters, but the number added cannot exceed their hit dice. So 1 HD monsters get +1 HD (bringing them up to 2 HD), 2 HD monsters get +2 HD (bringing them up to 4), and all other monsters get +3 HD. Or just give all monsters +2 hp per HD, up to a maximum of +10.

>>54617978
>Or just give all monsters +2 hp per HD, up to a maximum of +10.
Or just say "fuck it" and up the hit dice that monsters roll by 1 die level (d8 to d10). This means that monsters wouldn't catch up to PCs until 10th level, but there's no particular reason monster toughness has to parallel PC toughness. (If I used this with double weapon damage, I'd also add an extra hit die on top of everything, so a 1st level monster would have 2+2 hit dice, a 2nd level monster would have 3+3, and a 3rd level monster 4+4)

>>54617592
I should have mentioned that, aside from unique ancient monsters, most of the rank and file enemies will be a bit lower powered. PCs, too.

I'm basing stats for creatures mostly based on their size, because most creatures will be randomly generated.

AC will never normally go beyond 18, small things have 1/2 HD, Huge things probably as much as 8-12 HD, and +1 to hit for every two HD. More vicious things will get +1 to hit per HD.

>>54617908
A bit light, but I dig it. Some nice ideas. Thanks.

>>54615811
I used to just keep track of it in my head, but when I started to use grid I couldn't stop.

How long does crafting take?

>>54619598
What are you making?

>>54619643
Armor. Chain mail at the very least.

>>54619648
Chain mail takes a long damn time to make. Probably like 60 hours of work if you have the wire already smelted.

>>54619648
That seems like it would be measured in weeks to months.

>>54615811
I prefer minis, measuring tape, and an ungridded layout. That seems closer to the intent of OD&D.

>>54615811
Theatre of the mind is what I prefer and what I use most of the time.

If combat is going to be complex, it helps to throw down some tokens to help everyone stay on the same page

>>54615811
Grid. Ask the mapper to draw the current room based on what he's got, DM makes the corrections if any are needed.

When you hexcrawl, what movement weightings/terrain penalties do you use for travel in different terrains? How well do they work for you?

>>54622534
Aren't they the same in all editions (2 in woods and desert, 3 in mountains and swamp, -1 multiplier if there are roads)? Anyway, those work fine.

>>54617908
>handle towards the sky.
Isn't the hammer inscribed on the sky?
Are you saying the top of the head faces the world while the handle faces orthogonal away from the world?
Someone was tripping balls when they first connected those dots in the sky.
(or are these lines clear as day, a la. Animal Crossing?)

>>54619648
Maybe up to 80 manhours, so two-four weeks maybe, but remember that apprentices are a thing for a reason. Chain mail especially is sped up tremendously by having some more people that can form the links.

Depending on what you're playing, there might also already be applicable guidelines. OD&D's Armorer (100gp/month), for instance:
>Unassisted he can make one suit of armor, or three shields, or five weapons per month. With two assistants (one must be a Smith) he can double this volume, and with six assistants (two must be Smiths) the volume can be trebled.
(Smiths are 25gp/month. Also, note that a "suit of armor" is plate.)

B/X has pretty much the exact same stuff on X21, although weirdly enough they forgot to write anything about Smiths. Despite mentioning them in the Armorer write-up.
They also cut out the Assassin hireling, for whatever reason. Huh.


For those curious, costs for OD&D/B/X are
>Plate 50/60
>3 shields 30/30
>5 weapons max 75/75

Since it costs 100gp to get that, you initially lose money on it - but with one smith you're making 25gp profit on the two-handed swords and with two smiths you're even breaking even on plate armor. It'll help to equip an army, I guess, and keep the armorer useful when he doesn't have anything else to do to earn his paycheck.

>>54622586
It's weird. OD&D does what you said:
>Swamp, mountain 3; forest, desert 2; road -1
B/X (X20) does
>Mountains, jungle, swamp 2
>Forest, hill, desert, broken 1.5
>Clear, city, trail, grasslands 1
>Road 2/3

I think outdoors movement might also be higher in B/X in general?

Mentzer is the same as Moldvay, except adds some more terrain modifiers and moves trails to the level of roads.

Also, both have it as multipliers - roads give 1½ miles per mile spent, forests 2/3, etc. I just converted it for reference' sake.

AD&D (DMG p.58), meanwhile, has it as roughly
>Normal terrain 1
>Rugged terrain (forests, steep hills, snow) 1.5 / 2 / 2
>Very rugged terrain (broken ground, heavy forests, bogs, mountains) 3 / 4 / 5 (could be x4 rounded down)
The slashes are for light/average/heavy burden on foot.

Very rugged terrain also slashes down mounted movement something terrible - light horses go from 60 miles to 25 miles to 5.

Basically, no, it's not really consistent. I'm pretty sure that the only reason OD&D has what it has is because those values are stolen directly from Outdoor Survival, and even then they changed some IIRC.

>>54622862
Huh. Well, I like the OD&D ones, anyway, they're simple and relatively plausible. (I'd use a movement factor of 3 for jungles as well, personally.)

Together with the simple movement rates given in numbers of hexes it really makes crawling top easy.

>>54622608
>OD&D's Armorer (100gp/month)
Honestly I always thought this was one of the big flaws in OD&D even considering how shit the price list generally is: the fact that hiring an armorer specifically just to make armor is somehow a losing proposition, or break-even at best. Sages are way too expensive as well, not that that's related.

>>54622598
The head faces the horizon, while the handle points up towards the 'top' of the sky.

>>54623399
>Honestly I always thought this was one of the big flaws in OD&D even considering how shit the price list generally is: the fact that hiring an armorer specifically just to make armor is somehow a losing proposition, or break-even at best. Sages are way too expensive as well, not that that's related.
Eh, they're mostly just there for the +100gp/50 fighters thing. And smiths +25gp/50 horses.

They're not really balanced around the armor production, which I suspect is mostly just there for when you have an excess of armorers for whatever reason since they can't both maintain armor and make new stuff.

Or maybe they're balanced around the idea that you're out in the wilderness and probably far from towns where you can buy stuff en masse? I dunno. The actual arms & armor seem to be a secondary consideration, at any rate, with their primary purpose being so that players need to Construct Additional Pylons if they want to enlargen their armies.

>54615128

They're shitty if you're going to try reloading them, but if you carry four or five pistols strapped to belts they're pretty awesome. Up to +5 to hit, more damage than any other ranged weapon except heavy crossbows, and cause the enemy to make a morale check. Unlike crossbows, though, you can shoot each of your pistols each round - carrying multiple loaded crossbows is ridiculous in comparison.

>>54624151

meant >>54615128 as a link

>>54622534
I tend to use more realistic topographical maps than hex maps, but generally speaking I go with 4km/hr for 8 hours a day on good terrain (relatively flat fields), 5 on roads, 3 for ok terrain (open sand or hills, light vegetation), 2 for close terrain (forests), 1 for godawful terrain (swamps, mountains).

You can go faster or for longer, but you exhaust yourself or otherwise risk injury. Mounted speeds for long distance travel are those same speeds +1 km/hr each - horses are faster than people, but not much over long distances (unless you want an exhausted horse).

I based those speeds on research into army marching speeds (army manuals from the late 1800s and early 1900s are great for this), hiking speeds, long distance horse races, and so on. Works pretty good, but might be more detailed than you need.

>>54624151
>>54624291
That makes more sense for pistols, but the larger weapons still look pretty sucky. As in, a fighter with +2 to dex using a flintlock musket or what have you would be effectively using a very expensive heavy crossbow that inflicts morale checks. The armor piercing would even out against heavily armored opponents, otherwise, you need to make it even more expensive and slower by adding rifling for it to match crossbow accuracy

And isn't the arquebus exactly the same as the musket, except lighter and less expensive?

>>54624749
> And isn't the arquebus exactly the same as the musket, except lighter and less expensive?

They ignore armor at all ranges instead of just short range.

> the larger weapons still look pretty sucky

They do still ignore slightly more armor, which I'd say probably makes them better at short range if the morale check comes into play. Also consider "scattershot," which can turn your gun into an AOE weapon.

You're probably right that they only seem roughly comparable, and that's probably not quite entirely realistic as you advance through the 1600s. Guns in real life were superior to even the strongest bows because they could shoot multiple shots at once, had a MUCH deadlier effect (especially at long ranges), less work to load and fire, and had relatively flat trajectories making aiming easier in spite of loose tolerances. The last two probably don't apply, what with adventurers being exceptional and all, but the others matter a lot.

I don't think guns are quite as dire as you made them out to be, but I would probably make crossbows lose their armor reduction at long ranges instead of guns (pistols probably would too, though), and probably amp up the full sized gun damage to a d10. Maybe increase gun range brackets a bit too. That sort of thing.

>>54625057
>>54624749
>They ignore armor at all ranges
They = musket, not arquebus.

>>54623399
But is it a given that a player should be able to profit from starting up an armor factory? I don't necessarily think of armor as a consumer item with a good profit margin--it's a capital investment necessary for the profitable enterprise of making war.

I like to think that if you're buying armor from a market stall at list prices, you're buying used and repaired gear. Serviceable stuff, but nothing fancy. Mail can be repaired with new links for years.

An arms merchant probably sees better profit margins from buying in bulk from cash strapped nobility, or scavenging from battlefields.

>>54625108
>But is it a given that a player should be able to profit from starting up an armor factory?
To be fair, I'm pretty sure that someone is profiting 100gp/month or so from the enterprise.

It just isn't the guy outsourcing the work, it's the guy whose interests lie in keeping prices close to guild guidelines.

>>54624443
I (>>54622586 / >>54623399) used ot do this kind of detail as well, until I realized it literally added nothing to the players' enjoyment of the game, as none of them was anywhere near knowing about realistic marching speed. So now I use the simple and fast OD&D movement.

>>54625314
Yeah, 9 times in 10 making something realistic is for your own personal benefit of feeling good as the GM I find. If you don't have a pressing need for detailed realism it's best to cut it back wherever you can to keep book-keeping to a minimum.

I happened to be running a game mostly about exploring the wilderness so I wanted something more detailed for my own satisfaction, but in most cases it's just not necessary.

>>54625108
>But is it a given that a player should be able to profit from starting up an armor factory?
I don't think profit exactly (for one thing I don't know where the hell people would be buying that much armor), but it seems reasonable that you shouldn't lose money per suit or at best break even by having them made expressly instead of buying what's available. (It's true that it's unlikely there'll be a middleman to shit things up; realistically, in a medieval setting you'd buy directly from a master armorer of the local guild, but it's weird all the same.)

>>54625108
>I like to think that if you're buying armor from a market stall at list prices, you're buying used and repaired gear. Serviceable stuff, but nothing fancy. Mail can be repaired with new links for years.
That makes sense for mail, but it's less true for plate, which you need to have fitted.

>>54625429
>Yeah, 9 times in 10 making something realistic is for your own personal benefit of feeling good as the GM I find
Agreed, I'm a huge sperg about the idiotic price lists in pretty much every D&D, using silver standard and so on but my players couldn't fucking care less either way, I just do it for my own sake because I have to scratch that mental itch.

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>>54628324
What do the different kinds of lines mean? They're not all labeled.

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Who here pre-ordered Mutant Crawl Classics? I'm so hype.

>>54628538
No need for hype. The pdf is already floating around.

>>54628382
Dotted lines seem to be for direct restatements, expansions, and games that are somewhat inspired/influenced by other ones.
Hell if I know what the unlabeled solid lines are for, though. OD&D has solid lines to Dungeon World, Arduin, Microlite 74 and Swords & Wizardry. Mentzer has a solid line to Lamentations of the Flame Princess, and the Rules Cyclopedia has a solid line to Wrath of the Immortals of all things. Both of which then go into Dark Dungeons and its followups.

2E has a solid line to Diablo II, but this one is labeled as a revision - the only solid line that's labeled.

D&D 3.0 has a solid line to the non-D&D attached OGL, but 3.5 has a dotted (unlabeled) line to the D&D attached OGL.

I get the feeling that they're mostly just arbitrary. Do anyonw know who made that, by the way?

>>54628538
I did. Got the PDF a bit ago. Haven't ran it yet but it seems killer.

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>>54628674
>>54628799
Anyone willing to help me get that pdf?

>>54628324
What the fuck is going on in this tree.
>Dungeon World is a retroclone of OD&D
>AS&SH is a retroclone of OD&D

>>54629436
It's not "retroclones" as much as they're just birthed from that, I guess? 3.0 leads to OGL leads to Spycraft leads to Stargate SG-1, for instance, all solid lines.

Except even then it's wrong with Dungeon World, because that's way more inspired by the Red Box and AD&D (racial class limits! Human-only paladins! Elves can be rangers!)
It's supposedly "D&D As We Played It", IIRC, and I somehow doubt that was OD&D.

Unfortunately it's from 2013 and the guy who made it doesn't have a blog anymore and doesn't seem to have posted anything about it later, so its old flaws will be eternal.

What is a good system to feel the despair of being stucck in a dungeon with little food and one torch left?

>>54629695
Dungeon Fantasy.

Anyone else here have the problem of PCs always finding a single chokepoint to hold the enemies in? I've had about four such fights in a row, with neither the foes nor even all the player characters having the space to do what they wanted to do.

I kinda want some guys to ambush them from behind as this goes, but I don't know how to do it properly.

>>54629733
Make your dungeon have loops and secret tunnels, then have dungeon denizens exploit this. Go read The Alexandrian for tips and tricks on dungeon design that implement this.

>>54629695
The Nightmares Underneath would probably be a good choice for that

>>54629733
If the PCs retreat don't oblige them. Chase until they get good ground, then the monsters run away themselves to their own good ground.

What's your favorite zine?

>>54629695
Torchbearer, maybe. (NOT OSR, REEE)

While D&D is pretty hard on the resource management, food isn't high on the list. Rations are by day or week, and you'll only lose them by throwing them at monsters.
Being out of torches will fuck you up, but it's also not a concern after Continual Light.

Something like Torchbearer, though? That resource management is the game itself, in a way. Every skill check ("test") you make (avoidable through Good Ideas, but no backsies if you say that you do something; negotiation is explicitly banned) advances time in the dungeon by one turn.
Every two turns, a torch burns out and up to four people are plunged into darkness. (It gives light to two, dim light to two more - dim light increases the difficulty of all tests except riddling.)
If you're in the dark, you can only flee, riddle, or argue - and you have increased difficulty in all tests except riddling, so you'd better be good at your Bilbo impression.
Also, if you ever fail a test then the DM can decide that you succeed, but your torch is also snuffed. (Candles last for four turns and light 1+1 dim, but can be blown out at a whim in addition to other results.)

Also, every four turns you turn on The Grind. You get hungry and thirsty, then exhausted (-1 health), then angry (can't use your good trait bonuses), then sick (-1 to skills, can't improve them), then injured (-1 to skills), then afraid (can't help or use skills untrained), and then you suddenly drop dead of exhaustion.
Also, if you're sick or injured and fail a test then the DM is allowed to kill you at a whim - although they need to tell you before you roll the dice. Which is after the point of no return, of course.

Eating the food you have cures your hunger, wine can be used to cauterize wounds, and you've got precious little of either. Other conditions need magic or tests in camp (by making it more likely to fail tests) or in town (by racking up a tab).

D&D plays fair. Torchbearer is not a nice game.

>>54629637
Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Longname is an AD&D retroclone as well.

>>54630062
Fight On! is the best I've read, or Knockspell. AFS Magazine is the best I've heard of but have never managed to track down.

>>54630065
>>54629695
Or, you know, use your favorite system and just incorporate bits and bobs from other systems. The most OSR of ways, really.

Hey, >>54629724, what does Dungeon Fantasy have to bring to the table when it comes to resource management? Is there anything worth nicking?

>>54630122
Resource management is a pretty broad topic. At its core, it's tracking the weight of individual items and your encumbrance limit for equipment (potions, rope, arms and armor, food, arrows, torches, etc.) and less concrete resources, like HP and FP, the latter of which is used for spellcasting. Encumbrance can be quite harsh, since it penalizes how fast you can move and some defenses, depending on what skills you're using. Fatigue can be lost by not keeping up with three meals a day and something like a quart of water, darkness penalties are particularly harsh for those that don't have something like infravision, etc.

Combat is also deadly for even professionals, so it really ramps up tension. All of the modifiers add up. Darkness, bad footing, hunger, pain... just start with a lower point total and you can really capture the despair of being in a shit-filled troll cavern.

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>>54629733
There's multiple approaches to this and it really just boils down to how intelligent the monsters are and how well they know or how well prepared the area is.

As always remember one counterpoint is "let them" - chokepoints are used exactly because they're effective. But breaking a chokepoint falls into three major categories.

The first is simply to not enter the choke and wait out your opponent. Generally speaking since the PCs are the ones doing the exploring, foes can fortify. Alternately, if the enemy can cut off the PC retreat, they can besiege them and just try to starve them out.

The second approach is to try and approach from an alternate angle - using pre-prepared passages, existing passages, or supernatural abilities (monsters that can fly or climb on walls for example)

Finally, you can try smoking/pushing out an enemy chokepoint through the use of some substance. Explosives, fire, poison gas, a solid object like a giant stone, or sometimes just rushing in with a monster that is too big to simply physically hold at bay (ex. a golem, dragon, or other great beast)

All of these approaches can be combined, of course.

>>54629733
Adding to what the others said, try this one next time:
>Room with say 8 hobgoblins
>The PCs retreat back into corridor
>The hobgoblins back off into the chamber
>Two of them pick up crossbows and start plinking the PCs
>If the front-rank PCs draw bows, the other hobgoblins gleefully charge the melee-disarmed bowmen
>If the PCs charge the crossbowmen, they're flanked by the other hobgoblins

>>54629733
>PC's stand in chokepoint at the entrance to the room
>Monsters fuck off to fortify and group up with other monsters in other rooms.
>PCs have to move forward into a much harder encounter or leave the dungeon.

>>54630062
I don't pay for zines so & Magazine.

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So I shilled the idea last thread of using a sort of combat point or battle point system, where each class rolled their Hit Dice as a way to determine stuff in combat. Obviously this means that Fighters get the most and have the best combat actions like this.

What's a good way to implement this? The original idea was to roll once at the start of combat, after initiative, with characters able to bid for going first with combat points, having to take a breather every couple of rounds to recover their 'stamina'. I really like the idea but it needs some work.

>>54631046
I liked your idea tb h but I don't have anything to add about implementing it offhand, sorry. Still, kep it going! I'd be interested to see a system that works. And remember, OD&D gave fighters one attack per level each round, that's the standard that spells were balanced against, so just... fuckin' go hog wild.

>>54628538

Ive run two funnels. The pdf that went out to backers has some typos and that pushed back the full and print release. Better they catch it up front. Also didn't have info for new players on what certain DCC game rules actually mean.

Complaints:

1. There is no middle ground between stone age spear and ray gun. More middle ground weapons Could have been easily included.

2. Character occupations are lazy 01-50 Hunter, 51-100 Gather. Come the fuck on. At least Frozen in Time DCC adventure made an attempt.

3. Book intro: "Not even your players would be able to recognize the amazing artifacts of the ancients". Artifacts are power armor and laser guns. GTFO.

The book could have been a better, more varied post apoc tool kit then it turned out to be its very focused on a Thundarr the barbarian type post apoc set so far in the furture it might as well not be the fucking post apoc. I also think that the page count should have been closer to DCCs massive 480 pages vs MCC's 280.

>>54628538
>>54631468

4. 4th and 5th Level Shaman Spells are not included I can't even recall if this is explained but Jim Wampler said on Glowburn 009 that 4th and 5th lvl spells will be featured in modules. This is rather inexcusable imo.

5. A Shaman only gets 1 spell per level. There is no others to choose from. NONE at all! The excuse from the creator is that spells are very are powerful. Yes they are powerful spells but not much variety. For example there is no reason to have 2 Shaman's with the same patron AI. Because they are exact copies of one another. This bodes very poorly for the longevity of the game.

6. The Pure Strain Human (PSH) Classes are very boring compared to their DCC counter part. They would have been better off doing a direct port of the DCC classes because frankly they are more interesting.

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New spells OC from last thread.

I am looking for the AS&SH adventures, i cannot find them anywhere. Can someone share them with me?

Hooly shit page 10 bump

>>54635979
ded thred
ded gaem

>>54636040
ded moevment
F

What are some OSR games where I can throw out the experience and magic system without too much issue?

>>54636077
Stars Without Number

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kingdom management in games without support for it it is usually done with monstrous ACKS hacks, right?

Any recommendations for some Appendix N inspired settings?

>>54636389
You can also use An Echo Resounding, which is a supplement written for Labyrinth Lord. It's somewhat abstract and hand-wavey; very back-of-the-napkin type stuff.

f you want an approach that actually tries to model where the money is coming from in detail you'll probably have to hack ACKS's method in some way or come up with one yourself.

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First, write up your setting with a shit ton of races and cultures.

Then, write up 'race as classes' for all of them, with each race potentially having a few different race-as-classes, like elf swordmage from the high elf city and elf archer from wood elf tribes, etc.

THEN you use THOSE as your classes.

Rate this idea.

>>54637836
See, the problem with that question is that Appendix N is pretty varied. Still, though:
>Lieber, Fritz. "Fafrhd & Gray Mouser" Series; at al.
Actually available as a setting - check out various Lankhmar stuff.
>Howard, R.E. "Conan" Series
Also available in a thousand clones and a couple licensed versions.
>Lovecraft, H. P.
So many versions of this out there, although few hew close enough to the themes IMHO.

Now then, the more sci-fi stuff.
>St. Clair, Margaret. THE SHADOW PEOPLE; SIGN OF THE LABRYS
Sign of the Labrys is a wiccan-themes post-apocalyptic sci-fi story, and also probably the inspiration for dungeon levels.
>Lanier, Sterling. HIERO'S JOURNEY
Post-apocalyptic psionics, one of those "you thought it was medieval fantasy, but it was actually post-WW3 America!" stories. Gamma World's also inspired by this.
>Zelazny, Roger. JACK OF SHADOWS; "Amber" Series; et al.
Amber is, of course, the plane-hopping demigod stories. There's a somewhat well-known RPG.

Poul Anderson has three books listed, and I'll comment on them out of order:
>Three Hearts and Three Lions
Pretty well-known, this is one of the primary sources for Alignments and Paladins. WW2 engineer gets isekai'd into a fantasy world where he becomes a Paladin and fights against Chaos, later returns to fight the Nazis.
>The Broken Sword
Imitation Norse saga, with elves and men fighting.
>The High Crusade
Aliens invade 14th-century England; having long since abandoned CQC due to their advance weaponry they are soon defeated, and the invaded village launches a counterattack with their stolen spaceship.

People have the impression that Appendix N is mostly just Sword & Sorcery, and the shortlist Gygax gives of "most immediate influences"
>de Camp & Pratt, REH, Fritz Lieber, Jack Vance, HPL, and A. Merritt
holds up to that assumption to some degree... but there's also some historical fiction, post-apocalyptic stuff, generic fantasy... The "Ring Cycle" is on the list, FFS.

>>54639255
If your setting has so many races, and their cultures are so deep and well-thought, you're better off just using race-and-class.

>>54639255
Too much preparation for too little payoff unless you make a system for building classes. Why make ten races with two classes each, for twenty classes total, when you're only ever going to actually use maybe half a dozen to their fullest?

It's a classic example of overpreparing. Better to have some method for building classes on the fly, and then using that when it becomes relevant.

>>54629390
TheDiceMustRoll has posted it like twenty times in the discord and these generals. Look for it.

>>54639433
How come it's not in the trove then?

>>54639478
>The Trove
>Getting updated
lol

>>54636040
>>54636071
>the youthful scamps do not remember when the general was slow enough to need bumping routinely

>>54639508
>>54639478
>>54639433

TDMR here. I've sent 6 pdfs to the trove this year, none updated. Dude is busy/dead

>>54639550
And what would those be?

How does energy drain affect you fluffwise? How does the character feel when a whole level is stripped from them?

>>54639983
Consider that they were originally referred to as removing "life energy levels" - they'd feel pretty drained, I suppose.

>Barrow wights (per Tolkien) are nasty critters who drain away life energy levels when they score a hit in melee, one level per hit. Thus a hit removes both the hit die and the corresponding energy to fight, i.e. a 8th level fighter would drop to 8th level.

Monster Manual 1 also refers to it as draining life energy levels, and I'm unsure how long that practice went on.

Anyway, they're not just draining away some abstract levels - they're sapping your lifeforce and making you weaker. Your sword-swings are worse because the energy to perform them has been drained from you, and similarly your hit point total has been lowered because it literally sucked out your life.

>>54640117
Yeah, this. It seems pretty clear that the model is Frodo's weakness after getting struck by the Morgul blade, lightly adapted to game circumstances. (Elrond apparently knows how to cast Restoration, being a high-level multiclass half-elf)

>>54616152
feuding feudal lords

>>54639983
>>54640117
Since you lose your experience, I fluff it as a memory loss related to the events that lead you to gaining this level. Undead are trying to not just sap your life, but feel its particular taste.

Whole adventures can be forgotten and objectives changed on the fly if everyone loses at least one level. So it can get pretty bad in my games.

>>54640599
Yeah, that has some issues since it runs face-first into metagaming. The players haven't actually forgotten, after all.

Also, it can get weird with remembering what you're supposed to remember. It just gets really messy, roleplaying-wise. It works fine for NPCs, but with PCs it kind of feels like arbitrarily changing the minds of their characters?

I prefer it being physical weakness and infirmity, not sapping their minds but sapping the very essence of their strength.

>>54640599
>Anon doesn't like the way energy drain works
>so he changed it to be worse
I'll say this: that's the first time I've ever seen that.

Quick question for all my fellow grognards, old and young:
>does anyone still use the World of Greyhawk as their setting?
I have used it on and off for years, either straight up Greyhawk, or some bastardized version of it.
Really, I guess a better question is what world do you use? I'm gonna assume a bunch of homebrew mixed with 'canon' stuff, but thought I'd ask

>>54641148
I tend to use either Forgotten Realms or Wilderlands of High Fantasy as a base, because I find a lot to like in each of them. But in practice I usually just slap down some completely unrelated adventures and shit on them, mangling them up until they fit the setting they're put into.

For instance, my current game is set in the northern parts of Forgotten Realms. The villain is about to melt the north pole, and the setting of Hyperborea will be revealed underneath.

>>54641214
Neat.
I have to admit, i either use some made up crap for one offs, but my campaigns always seem to be pure Greyhawk.
I've run hundreds of campaigns in it, and it's honestly my favorite setting.
So much so I'm (finally after 25 years) compiling my own sourcebook for it. Im at 190 pages and growing, though I'm no layout guy and it desperately needs editing (protip: I've learned I suck at writing sourcebooks)

>>54641148
Almost exclusively worlds of my own design. It's rare that I find a published setting that I like, and even rarer that I find one that I want to run or play a game in.

>>54641148
I use my own setting, but I steal a lot of ideas.

Got any recommendations for books that I can steal good random tables from?

>>54641148
I basically pull stuff from all over the place. I remember looking at the cover to a greyhawk box (from the ashes I think) and the marauding skeleton knights made a strong impact on my young mind, but I haven't gone back to actually see what's in there.

Red wizards/pan tang derivatives make it into most games I run in some form.

>>54642292
Been really digging Hubris and Yoon-Suin recently. Lots of good encounters that are easy enough to mod.

>>54638149

ACKS is bottom-up kingdom building while AER is top-down.

They have very different aims and are both useful in entirely different ways. For my part, I've found AER really helpful in a sandbox scenario-- most importantly because it has an implicit closed resolution loop built-in.

Using AER's kingdom building mechanisms leads you to adventures. Completing adventures impacts kingdom building mechanisms. Once you start the narrative engine I've found it very easy to keep chugging along.

Recommend a premade hex map for a B/X hex crawl. I'd like to avoid using a well defined world (Like Greyhawk). I'm considering using the AH Outdoor Survival board but it's a land locked map.

>>54642387
>Yoon-Suin
This anywhere in the trove?

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I just realized that Big Trouble in Little China is a high-magic modern urban dungeon crawl and Streets of Rage is a low-magic modern urban dungeon crawl.

>>54642562
There's the X1 map, but that might be a bit on the smaller side (and also has the whole Mystara connotations, but honestly you can ignore that).

Maybe take a look at the Wilderlands of High Fantasy, by Judges Guild? It's in the Trove, although unfortunately the scan quality of the maps is a bit lacking.
The Wilderlands are probably THE big hexcrawl setting, though. And early Wilderlands stuff is vague as all hell.

>>54642292
Carcosa(n?) Grimoire has a nice clunky name generator.
Calimport and City System have random building/neighborhood generators.
1e DMG
The Horde had a nice caravan generator.

>>54641148
Pure homebrew or Wilderlands of High Fantasy, which is really just a substrate for piles of homebrew anyway.

>>54642387
Recently picked up yoon suin, haven't gotten too far into it but the tables do seem pretty inventive.
>>54642708
Thanks ill take a look at these.

>>54642568
Yes.

>>54642878
Where exactly?

>>54642909
Where do you think it would be?

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>>54643060
I've looked through DM Resources, the main folder of OSR Games, and Inbox. Beyond that I have absolutely no idea where it would be.

You are being deliberately obtuse and unhelpful in an effort to piss me off. Such a behavior does not help maintaining /osrg/ as one of the few decent places left on /tg/, where a fan of old-school games can still go to seek worthy discussion, ideas, and material for inspiration. Shame on you.

If you know the path to the book I seek, I'd like it if you told me.

>>54643184
I'm being unhelpful because it's ridiculously easy to find it. Supplements>Settings. Why did you not look there? It's a setting book. It's two clicks away from the first screen.

>>54643184
Not him, but it's on supplements - settings

>>54643253
>>54643267
Thank you.

>Why did you not look there? It's a setting book.
I didn't know it was a setting book, a DM resource book, or a random table book. Even if I had known, I might have just thought it'd be under one of the many OSR Games it could be all about. Most of the setting books are all over the place in one of them as it is.

>>54643491
See, the problem I have with that is that you didn't do any kind of research before asking other people to help you find it. It comes across as lazy. Please don't do that. Anyway, you found the book, hope you enjoy it.

>>54643636
>you didn't do any kind of research
I looked through half the fucking trove.

>>54642631

Thanks! I'll take a look at both!

I'm also thinking of doing a blank piece of hex paper where players only know home village (0 level character funnel) and the immediate adjacent hexes. All other locations will be vague. "The capitol city is 10 days north east, take the king's road"

>>54643720

You got what you came for my dude don't mind the trolls.

>>54643720
I mean you didn't even research what the book was. Also, search != research.

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>>54643817
>I mean you didn't even research what the book was
But I did. Here's what I got:

>Yoon-Suin is a campaign toolbox for fantasy games, giving you the equipment necessary to run a sandbox campaign in your own Yoon-Suin - a region of high adventure shrouded in ancient mysteries, opium smoke, great luxury and opulent cruelty.

What the hell am I supposed to make of that? Is it a sandbox campaign setting? Is it a toolbox? Is it a DM's resource? Does it belong to one of the nearly three dozen OSR game systems, and if so, which one? What place has the trove's creator arbitrarily set as its location? It might even be something I haven't thought of at all, like Other Old-School!

I mostly play AD&D. I have pretty much every book TSR has published, some of them as physical copies. I know where just about any of them would be found on the trove. But people occasionally come up here and ask where they are, so how about if I replied to them "Where do you think?! lol do your research"? I mean, you can research the location of these books with a quick Google search just as well!

Seriously, get off your high horse. The trove is a fucking mess.

>>54643934
This is why large troves need a text file containing the locations of all files as an easily searchable text file. Or for Mega to include a goddamn search function, either way.

>>54643934
A little bit more research would have given you:
>It's a setting
>It's system agnostic
And that's all you really need.

I mean I get that you're frustrated that you looked in all the wrong parts and that happens to me too with the trove, but I was seriously not believing that you couldn't find it when it took me like ten seconds. I wanted to make sure that you made an effort at least.

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>>54642582

What is a good classic set up for the dungeon? I think I read in B/X something about the first three levels being filled with specific enemies and a certain aesthetic but all I recall now is that the third floor was the crypts. Any direction would be appreciated.

Is there an OSR that supports a decent MP system instead of Spell Slots?

>>54644100
I'll bet you want "mana potions" too, you pussy.

is OSR the system for players shitting themselves when they see a monster appear?

>>54645654
Apart from Call of Cthulhu, it's one of the better systems where you can do something like that.

>>54645571
You mean like a superberry?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnY_2qC1L34

What's the best online diceroller? Rolz.org has been really unresponsive as of late.

>>54631468
There's always Other Dust if you want a different take on a retroclone post-apoc game that addresses all those complaints (I'm running it now and it's been great).

>>54644076
First floor is stuff that goes in and out from the dungeon somewhat often. Rats, bandits, goblins, what have you. (Also, of course, probably 1HD-ish. Plus a few, perhaps, but then singular - the rats and bandits should be in groups.)

Second floor is stuff that DOESN'T go out often (because they'd need to go through the bandits, unless they have an alternate entrance (they should)). Also, perhaps, scary enough that the first-floor stuff stays there rather than wandering deeper.
Cultists and undead are a classic example.

With those two levels you basically have Keep on the Borderlands or Hommlet.

Third floor is stuff that didn't come down from above, but instead came up from below. This is where you get Dungeon Ecology up in this bitch - carrion crawlers, slimes, you name it. Also various underground critters that dug their way in instead - drow or duergar, or maybe just giant man-eating moles. (They're blind, but if they touch you with their tentacled nose they'll swallow you whole.)
Also, of course, those who are strong enough that they can safely get down from above - perhaps the strongest of the cultists, and their most dangerous undead.

The fourth level could be, I dunno, a Minotaur's labyrinth. Or an actual cave system, maybe with ambulatory Shriekers on the encounter table.

Whatever you do, though: the first level should be easier than the second, which should be easier than the third, and so on. Increase the typical monster hit dice as you go downwards.

I'm not really familiar with the B/X example, sadly, so this is just going by my gut.

>>54645571
Not like that isn't hard for OSR in general.

what do you guys think of games like microlite?

>>54644100
Not as far as I know. MP systems are really, REALLY hard to balance, especially if you want to retain the classic D&D spells without brutalizing them too badly. People have literally been trying since 1974 and none of the attempts has worked well enough to gain general approval.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but this is seriously the truth as far as I know it. The most successful mana systems tend to rework things from the bottom up and construct the system entirely around the mana point as component, so you get scrupulously balanced damage output or duration per point spent, for instance. The method works, but unfortunately it hacks away most of the unpredictability and variety of D&D spells to get there. Ultimately, a lot of players and referees find that unsatisfying.

Vancian abides because as much of a kludge as it is -- and an admitted one -- it accomplishes a variety of goals that are apparently impossible to bring together otherwise.

>>54647415
Like the idea, hate the execution. Does a lot wrong by trying to remain compatible with the SRD.

>>54646242

Or we could just play Gamma World 4th Ed.

Looking for a blog post/house rule, having trouble finding it again after I read it a year ago give or take.

The basic conceit was trying to explain HP as something other than meat points. I believe that they used it as a timer, once you took damage. That is to say, you have 8hp, take 2 damage, you now have (8-2=6) rounds to stabilize before your character falls unconscious.

Anyone know anything about that or did I just imagine it in a wild fever dream?

>>54645571
>he doesn't use magic items that augment spellcasting
Wands have a hundred charges, chumbro.

>>54647415
Laughable.

Microlite systems require you to basically already be an expert in your chosen RPG style of choice before playing because by default there simply isn't enough room to explain how to play. So it's bad for beginners.

If the system is expanded to include beginners and make a fuller package, not only does it begin to defeat it's own purpose of being as small as possible, it eventually just turns into a hamstringed version of what it was trying to portray with slightly less words. An example would be the Microlite for B/X, which comes in around 125 or so pages, which, at that point, you can literally just pick up B/X and get a fuller, more complete experience. So it's bad when expanded.

Finally, even if you're all expert players who are looking for something portable, well, it's still pointless. Most OSR is based around B/X era and that's rules-lite enough on its own to just play once everyone has read the book. You could probably even get away with just remembering spell names at that point. You can include 1e and 2e in on this because other than slightly stricter rules on character creation, they're very similar to B/X. So it's bad for experts.

The only think microlite is good for is making small guidelines for how to play 3.PF as rules-lite as possible. Except the entire reason most people play 3.PF is because they love character builds and optimization, which Microlite just frankly doesn't do a lick of. The only people who benefit from this style of play are people who play 3.PF because they don't know anything else, and they're frankly better off playing OSR or 5e at that point and they're just too stupid/inexperienced to know better. So microlite is bad at its own job.

To sum up, Microlite is...
>Bad for beginners
>Bad when expanded to include beginners
>Bad for experts
>Bad at its own job.


tl;dr It's shit.

>>54644035
Other Anon here. Speaking of Yoon-suin, has anyone here run it? I've been prepping for a game centered around the yellow City and it's vicinites today. Does anyone have any good advice or pointers for running such a game? I'm having trouble figuring out how I should communicate to my players about the social groups I have generated for the campaign. The book says that the PCs are supposed to have some connection to the different social groups. One solution I see is to tell one of my players that you're a part of this noble house and you're a member of this philosophical order and so on.

The problem I see with this is that this does to some extent run counter to the sentiment of the OSR playstyle of character evolution by playing rather than during character creation. This could for instance create some strange problems if a TPK occurs (since this is OSR after all). How are the subsequent characters supposed to have any connection to the lives of the previous characters are their motivations in the game world?

Secondly, how does anyone have a good idea of how I should initiate the campaign. I could tell my players that their PCs are a bunch of adventurers sitting in a tea house waiting for an opportunity to make some fast cash and ask them to simply roll on my rumor table. However I'm afraid that won't get them very far and that they'll feel clueless about where to get started.

Lastly, does anyone have any good suggestion for dungeons I should throw into my campaign? Should I just grab some of Dyson's delves throw in some random monsters from the bestiary and sprinkle it with treasure?

Any and all answers are greatly appreciated. I realize these questions not only concern Yoon-suin but sandboxes in general.

Does anyone actually like the original B/X thief skill progression? If you do, how does it play out when you have characters with no more than a 1-in-4 chance to do cool thief stuff?

I'm thinking about running a game with Labyrinth Lord before I start globbing on house rules. I've always houseruled thieves and I'm curious if they can be good as written. It occurred to me that with the back stab rules, they can do some pretty great things, and when using a reaction table, failing a hide or move silently check isn't necessarily a death sentence.

I've read the idea that thief skills represent almost supernatural competence (ie, climbing a featureless stone wall, or disappearing into a shadow right in front of an enemy).

>>54647724
>An example would be the Microlite for B/X, which comes in around 125 or so pages
KEK, that's really light and micro.

>>54647738
>The book says that the PCs are supposed to have some connection to the different social groups.
I don't have the book on hand right now, but I remembered it having like a table for "how do you know these faggots anyway?" or something like that. Maybe it doesnt though, in that case I'd mostly just make them various business associates, neighboring a PC's hovel, something your cousin joined, you did a job for them once, shit like that.

>>54647738
>Secondly, how does anyone have a good idea of how I should initiate the campaign.
My favorite way is to start with the PCs in front of the gates to the megadungeon, desperate and out of cash, but if you want to run a city/faction-based game you can't really do that.

Instead, it's probably best for your purposes if you go "you guys were really running out of cash, so when Uglug the Slug wanted to hire you to blah blah blah you took it" and then start mixing in the other social groups from there. Like maybe Uglug hires the players to go out into the archipelago and find an ancient brass astronomical instrument in one of the observatories out there, but then as they're arranging boat hire and such that one PC's cousin who's in a cult asks them to bring it to his cult instead for a different reward, and maybe Kwan Ssul who runs the crabman-fighting ring tells them he might have another job for them when they get back because the jungled-over regions of the city hold... etcetera.

You could also do an EPT-style "You've just come up the river to Jakálla because this is where all the money and prestige is, but you have no idea what the fuck is up with anything, you must wait in the Foreigners' Quarter until somebody wants to hire you" intro. Less impalements, maybe. This does screw up the PCs having starting faction connections but you can give them those during the first few sessions in play.

Either way, if a TPK occurs, just roll up new factions for the new group to be attached to and keep the old ones, determining what they're up to between sessions to deepen the verisimilitude of the milieu. It's a big city, it can fit a lot of dudes.

>Lastly, does anyone have any good suggestion for dungeons I should throw into my campaign?
You should totally fucking steal Dyson's My Private Jakálla and use it for a partial underworld of the Yellow City. Also, check out his Mad Monks of Kwantoom experiments for some neat maps of pagodas.

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>>54647759

That's one way to do it. Personally I dislike thief progression in general, and think a bonus that scales with level or special power dice are a better way to do it.

>Focus Die
Whenever a thief does a roll, they can add or subtract a d6 from the roll. When it comes to rolling for damage in combat, you instead take the highest dice.

Thieves get Focus dice uses equal to their level per day.

>>54648118
Interesting idea. But Labyrinth Lord thieves do improve by level.

I'm specifically interested in how GM's arbitrate thief skills in that case. It seems hard for the thief to be useful or fun to play if disarming traps will usually result in their messy death (at least til high levels)... but going too far the other way also seems boring.

>>54646453
Thank you, my friend

>>54647849
>>54648065

Great advice, just what I needed to get productive. I think making the PCs short on cash alternatively in debt is a good idea. It is a tad overused trope, but I think that might be good thing for the game. Since the setting is very different from standard fantasy and unfamiliar such a plot introduction will probably make it easier for the players to navigate.

My private Jakálla does look great, especially since it has loads of different entries which could lead to very different parts of the city. Placing an underground river connecting to sea down there could generate some interesting play as well. Different bands of smugglers fighting for control over it and nobles attempting to shut it down etcetera.

>>54648118
>>54647759

One of the ideas I'm currently toying around with in my homebrew is that anyone can attempt to open a door or pick a lock etc provided they have the tools and skill level appropriate for it, but the thief will get special abilities they can use in limited quantities to succeed automatically at those skill checks.

>>54648878
Using Jakalla is a good idea. You could roll up a few starting factions, give them a short modus operandi and have each of them using jakalla sewers and tunnels to fuck with each other/do other things. Relay the short description to the players, let them pick one they like the sounds of, and be exploring/mapping for them from the get go, starting right at the open manhole cover.

>>54615811
Theater, with some sketching up as opportunity allows. Grids are the reason people talk about brain damage and d&d

>>54629733
can't you just have the monsters bullrush their way into the room? I assume there's a bunch of them. Alternatively, missile weapons to draw them out

>>54630065
reminds me of shadowgate's bullshit torch system. That sounds irritating

Having a caller
Moving in units

What other OSR practices are there?

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>>54640915
Greetings, newfriend.

It's fucking hard living out here!
Turn back.

>>54650315
Killing 1 in 10 characters, just because
Rolling all the dice for everyone behind your screen
you could save a lot of time by just rolling a d10 for everyone at the start of the session and making shit up as you go

>>54650349
>Rolling all the dice for everyone behind your screen
Non-OSR playing troll detected, the common practice is the exact opposite: rolling every single die you possibly can out in the open and fudging nothing.

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How does OSR feel about using set damage die for the different classes? Maybe tied up with their Hit Dice?

So for example if a Wizard is armed it always deals 1d4 damage, Rogues get d6, Clerics d8, maybe Fighters get d10? The weapon or size of weapon doesn't matter, just the class's damage die.

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>>54650405
You, personally, are the reason Gygax was so angry all the time.

>>54650427
What's the advantage of this system?

>>54650427
I feel like that was a good idea when you first had it.
And that you haven't gone anywhere with it yet.

You don't seem do understand how our dynamic works.

We're a slow enough board that we've all heard your spiel.

Unless you have a GREAT idea, you need to develop it yourself.

Go away, and don't come back as yourself until you brain-food.

How would I determine the value of a ring of neutralize poison with 2 charges in LL (for the purposes of awarding do) I'm having trouble locating item creation rules

>>54650491
>I'm having trouble locating item creation rules
So make shit up.

"x2 scroll of neutralize poison, +20%" sounds good to me.

>>54650482

Lets your Wizards use swords if they want to and lets fighters use knives without feeling like they are useless.

>>54650490

I didn't make the idea you fucking cock. It's been mentioned a few times on here, in fact I think that's how dungeon world and a few other games do their damage. I'm asking how people like it.

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>>54650534
>>54650490
ladies... relax

>>54650442
What's wrong with open rolls?

>>54650580
Open rolls are fine. But there's a time and a place for fudging.
I bet >>54650405 uses exactly what his tables say every time, too.

>>54650427
I'm 99% certain I just read a better version of this on Jeff Rients's blog...

No, it was BX Blackrazor.

http://bxblackrazor.blogspot.com/2009/06/while-d-characters-have-long-standing.html

>>54650534
But if you make every weapon exactly the same, who cares if you're using a dagger versus a longsword? They're both identical for all intents and purposes insofar as damage goes, so why bother? I'd just pick the one that weighs the least. Hell, I'd just pick up rocks at the dungeon or something so that I could save some room in my pack.

>>54650723
>so why bother?
Fluff.

Why are you so bent on system mastery?
See also, >>54650442

>>54650427
Trash

>>54650793
>I want people to gimp themselves for the immersion!

>>54650427
Wizard d4 damage
Thief d6 damage
Cleric d8 damage
Fighter d10 damage

Dagger (traditional d4 dmg) = worse of 2 rolls
Short Sword (traditional d6) = single roll
Longsword (traditional d8) = better of 2 rolls
Two-handed Sword = better of 2 rolls, double strength modifier to damage

>>54651062
t. Gary

>>54650315
Never seen those in OSR play. I think that's sort of a historical artifact from games with 7+ players.

I only saw the "party face" phenomenon after 3.0 came out, because the diplomacy skill made some characters so much better at social encounters that everyone else could be reduced to background talent.

>>54650427
It doesn't pass the sniff test for me. Why would a fighter carry

What I have considered is replacing weapon proficiency with a damage *cap*. So a wizard can pick up a two handed sword and swing it around, but since he's not a fighter, he's never going to do more than 1d6 with it.

>>54650491
Wait, LL says to award XP for magic items? I don't remember B/X endorsing the double dip.

>>54650427
It's no good. Especially since you explicitly state in >>54650534 that you want it for the very reason it's no good. Wizards not being allowed to use swords and other weapons is crucial because those are almost all the good magic weapons, especially the swords. The average damage increase from d4 to d10 is +3, so once you find a +3 sword with an additional ability, the wizard is winning out from the tradeoff. (In fact it happens sooner, at the +2 tier, since really you'd compare the wizard's class die with the longsword's d8 damage.)

To make this work well you'd have to forbid wizards from using any magical weapons besides daggers and staves, and that in turn would make the rule change basically pointless.

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>>54651369
yes, but then I'm back at the start. how much is it worth?

>>54651527
I'm just trying to be equitable I suppose. I'll figure this out!

>>54647557

hp is a pacing mechanic, not meat points

I want to make a campaign world for ACKS but I don't know where to start.

What kind of would should I make? Swords and Sorcery? Feudal as fuck? Dark-Sun shit?

>>54651900
I'd suggest asking your players what kind of campaign they'd like to play, then building a world that sort of playstyle.

>>54650427
Dungeon world does this

>>54647557
I remember reading this one, you're not imagining it.

https://metalvsskin.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-hit-point-stopwatch-and-no-saving.html

This one? There might be others if other people had the same idea, but that's what I have bookmarked.

>>54652806
No that's DEFINITELY it. Thank you very much! I also remember the second half, you see, but didn't realize they were in any way related.

>>54651856
>>54652806
I prefered the one arguing that every HP of damage represents actual damage taken, but that it's relative to total HP. So if you have a max of 100 HP and I have a max of 4 HP, either of us would die if someone ran us through with as sword, but you can move such that it's just a glancing blow (2 out of 100 HP) while the same swing will likely land true on me (2 out of 4 HP).

Thus, fighters' greater HP is accounted for only slightly by their greater ability to take a hit and mostly by their greater ability to roll with a hit and reduce damage.

Obviously as you, the 100 HP badass, take more damage, you get scratches and nicks and eventually you're so goddamn worn that that 1d4 attack may just be the one to finally fuck you up for real.

>>54653160
>hit points are actually a sliding scale from flesh to luck
Holy shit, it all makes sense now.

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what are the best Ravenloft adventures?

>>54653338
I6 is the only good one.

>>54653160

>Not just fluffing it purely as meat points
>not demigod fighters with swords sticking out of their guts and just walking it off.

>>54653338
Hour of the Knife
Adam's Wrath
The Awakening

>>54653160
Sure but that's so obvious. Wanted to read that post because it's an innovative rule.

>>54615504
What do you guys think of hackmaster?

>>54642562

Wilderlands of High Fantasy pioneered the whole hex crawl/wilderness adventure.

>>54653884
If it was a brand of peanut butter, it would just be a jar of peanuts.

>>54653338
You'd best read them all and decide. Don't forget there are more in Dungeon® Magazine.

• 31 1991 Sep/Oct BANE OF THE SHADOWBORN
• 38 1992 Nov/Dec HORROR'S HARVEST
• 42 1993 Jul/Aug PRICE OF REVENGE, THE
• 50 1994 Nov/Dec FELKOVIC'S CAT
• 52 1995 Mar/Apr LAUGHING MAN
• 58 1996 Mar/Apr BARON'S EYRIE, THE
• 64 1997 Sep/Oct LAST DANCE
• 76 1999 Sep/Oct THE HOUSE ON THE EDGE OF MIDNIGHT

>>54654013
never considered the magazines. I'll look into those. the 5e general has links for the old magazines.

>>54653504
I remember liking Hour of the Knife but I'm worried my players would find it railroady

Do you think Wizards should get bonuses to spells based on level? How do you deal with the 'Quadratic' Wizards problem in OSR games?

>>54654294
No, and what problem? MUs are ass.

>>54654294
Nah, getting access to new spells is enough of a boost.

To keep wizards from eclipsing the campaign
>end campaigns or retire high level characters when their power is clearly dominating the game
>let fighters fill in the magic gap with items (such as magic weapons that only fighters can make use of)
>Emphasize high level fighters as leaders of men (a wizard might attract a handful of apprentices, but fighters can attract loyal armies. Regular people resist and fear the influence of wizards).

Old school magic users aren't all that great, and if you really look at their spells, a lot of them kinda suck. They're useful in the dungeon, but they don't scale up to the point of terrorizing realms (unless you're devious, in which case you have a devious wizard manipulating things behind the scenes, which is perfect).

A high level wizard run amok is about as big a challenge as a dragon. Nothing a few heroes with magic items can't take care of.

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>>54654454
I've always thought it was weird how, at the very point where they're starting to really get powerful, wizards start acquiring more spell slots per level. In B/X, going from 1st to 2nd level, a magic-user gains a single 1st level spell slot. Going from 11th to 12th level, a magic-user gains a 2nd level slot, a 5th level slot, and a 6th level slot. Gaining a 6th level slot (and thus doubling the number of top level spells you can cast) isn't powerful enough by itself?

If you limit wizards to a single spell slot per level gain, that can make a significant difference in the power they accrue. Take the table here, for example (and just ignore the 0-level slots if you don't want to use cantrips). After you gain 3rd level spells, it takes 3 class levels to gain access to each successive spell level. Comparing what this progression gives you at 12th level to what you get by the RAW in B/X (not included cantrips for the former):

3/3/3/2/2
4/4/3/3/3/2

That's a pretty big difference. In the alternate progression, the magic-user is essentially lagging 2 levels behind in spell acquisition. At 14th level, the magic-user in the alt rules has the spells of an 11th level magic-user in the RAW (minus a 1st level spell, but plus 3 cantrips, if you use those).

>>54653984
crunchy?

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>>54642582
>>54644046
Now I want to run an OSR set in 1980s San Francisco.

Unfortunately I've never seen a modern or sci-fi setting done well using this system. Perhaps I can be shown otherwise.

>>54655132
I'm not the person you're responding to but...

>crunchy?
Needlessly and inappropriately so.

>>54653884
>What do you guys think of hackmaster?
It takes the obnoxious, fiddly details (the pointless restrictions, unnecessary statistics and so forth) and treats them as if they're the coolest thing, to the point of actually multiplying them where possible, just so there's more grognardy shit to masturbate to.

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Exploding damage dice in OSR Y/N?

>>54655997
Only if your players know that enemies are also entitled to exploding damage dice when they crit as well.

>>54655997
One of my female players just can't understand that while she's upset she can't just hack someone's arm off, she'd be much more upset if one of my monster's does it to her in its next turn. And once that happens, session will explode so I don't get close to any of that.

Otherwise, might have fun with it. I feel Hackmaster's got a good version, with hit point kicker and threshold of pain rules.

>>54651369
XP for magic items has been in the game since literally Men & Magic, it's just that the price list was incredibly incomplete. I don't remember if Holmes/Moldvay/Mentzer bothered to keep it, though I know that AD&D did - there's an entire thing where you can choose to keep the magic item and get XP for it... or you can sell it for tons of money and get a larger amount of XP.

That's why there's XP and GP listed for AD&D magic items - not because you can buy them, but because you can sell off less useful ones to get hard cash.

The Paladin that gets a Wand of Fireballs is pretty much required to immediately hock it, but if they find a magic sword they can keep it and also get a tidy sum of XP. Presumably XP that they lost in negotiations with the rest of the party, since they probably lost out on a fair amount of gold to get the magic sword.

>>54654294
>How do you deal with the 'Quadratic' Wizards problem in OSR games?
It just never comes up in the first place. The older editions are actually well balanced. For example, at the point in OD&D where a Magic-User gets the ability to cast Disintegrate, a Fighter has (and has had for some time) a 55% chance to shrug it off to no ill effect, and that's without factoring in the saving throw bonus from the magic armor he almost certainly has.
Then, if he avoids that one spell (or if he's quicker on the ball), he can pretty much roll over the wizard indiscriminately.

Wizards are powerful and cool to play, but Lords aren't worse, it's just a different style of play where you rely less on complex trickery and spells, and more on strength and suitable magic equipment.

>>54656360
>XP for magic items has been in the game since literally Men & Magic, it's just that the price list was incredibly incomplete.
...no? There's a price list *in GP* for the cost of *making* magic items which is indeed highly incomplete, on p. 7, but there isn't any mention of XP or even of the table being a guideline for the valuation of magic items. It's just the expense in money and time of making them.

>>54656360
>inb4 shitstorm
In 2nd edition there's prices listed next to everything, but they're there pretty much for the reasons this >>54657336 anon said.

>>54657246
The Quadratic Wizard problem isn't that Wizards get stronger faster than fighters, it's that the Fighter increases linearly (+X to hit/Y levels) while the Wizard both does that for individual spells, and also gets new spell levels in addition to that, and also gets new spell slots in addition to that.

...Of course, that's a bit moot for OSR because the quadratic nature of the Wizard is much less dramatic than in 3E (the primary source for the complaint), and OSR Fighters also tend to be a force multiplier at name level due to the increased hirelings and whatnot. Also, well, magic swords are probably easily the best magic items?

>>54657336
If you only look on the eye-catching table for magic item prices in the Magic-User write-up, sure. And it's one hell of an eye-catcher.

However, because this is OD&D things are never as well-organized as that - it's hidden in the description of experience points on page 18.
>As characters meet monsters in mortal combat and defeat them, and when they obtain various forms of treasure (money, gems, jewelry, magical items, etc.), they gain "experience".
>(money, gems, jewelry, magical items, etc)
>magical items, etc
Yeah, that's a bad place to put it if you're not going to call attention to it.

It's actually a pre-OD&D Arnesonian thing, from what I remember? Something about giving originally giving 1000XP to someone when they returned with a magic sword.

Also, of course, the price list is woefully incomplete and somewhat arbitrary - so that's where AD&D comes in, or if it's before 1979 the Judges Guild Ready Ref Sheets. (Or you just made them up yourself, of course.)
AD&D itself is also hella vague on magic item creation, but that's because Gygax seemingly had started to get the idea that players would also read the DMG (or DMs become players, as he himself did at times) and so did the whole thing with customizable artifact powers and leaving all the recipes up to individual DMs.

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>>54657905
Again, that's a 1E thing.

And kinda-sorta OD&D before it, I guess, except they didn't bother to give prices for 90% of the stuff.
>Wizards and above may manufacture for their own use(or for sale)[...]
>Costs are commensurate with the value of the item[...]

>>54654823
That's right around the point where Fighters can survive dropping from orbit and when their attacks just stop missing.

>>54658158
A B/X Fighter 14 (equivalent to M-U 12 in XP, sort of) has 9d8+10+9*CON hit points.
Assuming +1 Constitution, that's an average of 59.5hp.
That's the average roll of 17d6. Given a rule where you take 20d6 damage from terminal velocity falls, the Fighter gets splattered 91.49% of the time.

The Fighter's THAC0 is also 10. Assuming a +3 sword and +2 Strength (much more likely than +3), that's THAC0 5. Enemies with AC3 or worse can only be missed on a natural 1.
The Fighter will still have issues with the AC-2 Dragon Turtle, but the humanoids leave them wishing for an AD&D crowd-clear mechanic.

So a hit and a miss, basically.

Are there any Stars Without Number backers here? I'd appreciate a link to the latest beta of the free version of the rules. Kevin Crawford instructed to spread the link around anyway.

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How come the Judges Guild adventure Crypts of Arcadia isn't better known? I mean just look at this shit!

>Constantly increasing encounters consisting of basic stuff (skeletons, zombies, WIGHTS, WRAITHS, SHADOWS) or special encounters (mummies, spectres, slime, vampiric mist, giant murderous bone piles)
>All corridors are filled with essentially infinite numbers of skeletons and zombies
>Every random encounter has a small but real chance to collapse a part of the dungeon
>Random encounters ultimately happen automatically, once per round
>The map of the PCs points to a place in one dungeon corner - from which they get another map for the treasure, that's of course in the completely opposite direction

It's like a gigantic zombie apocalypse in a precarious dungeon wherein the very weight of the waking undead is going to bring the roof down. If you stay for longer than four hours or so, you'll likely never leave. It's fucking amazing.

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>>54658875
I led my player party about halfway through the dungeon today. Here's the session report.

>Party of eight characters from level 2 to 5
>They enter, following the first map
>See the dead lining up the corridors, immediately decide to speed things up
>Meet a nonhostile mummy that spouts some mostly unintelligible prophesy related to their other adventures and what future will bring to them and how they're going to die and be buried
>They get the second map, head back to the main entrance to go the other way
>Are just a touch too slow because their scout decided to go look around the other corridors
>Undead fill the final corridor
>They back away to unmapped areas to look for another way
>Go down a long corridor to a dead end, return to a central chamber filled with the dead
>They're surrounded buy start to fight their way through to a different road
>Wizard casts Burning Hands
>Unfortunately, the afore-mentioned mummy is also in the room
>Gets hit by the fire, is fucking PISSED
>Throttles the wizard half-dead, she's got mummy rot now
>The rest of the party burn him dead, manage to hold back the ever-increasing hordes of the damned
>They retreat to a mostly empty corridor, with the party fighters holding the line to give them time
>Session ends as some more of them begin crawling out of the halls in the new pathway, to split the fighters from the rest
>Cliffhanger

I can't wait for them to get to the treasure and having to fight the giant bone abomination and the spectres there. I wonder how they'll even get anything of that treasure pile with the fucking zombie apocalype on their tail - let alone get back out.

Ah, can't wait.

>>54658945
>I wonder how they'll even get anything of that treasure pile with the fucking zombie apocalype on their tail
For once, Hold Portal is the ideal char gen spell! Where are you planning on putting the dead guy's new dude next session?

I was planning on using the perilous wilds monster generation tables but I was concerned that it might look like im trying to magical realm with the animalfolk rolls on the table. Im going for a weird fantasy on the borderlands so I feel like they fit well enough but I dont want my players to take it the wrong way. What do?

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>chainmail Man v Man combat system

>>54657939
>page 18
Oh, you meant that. Yeah, that's just a throwaway line, not even "an incredibly incomplete price list", just a sop to the idea that you could do that. I can't count that as "being in the game" so much as a suggested option at most. (Also AFAIK Gygax didn't use that rule, not that that really matters since he also used the terrible direct port of modifiers from 2d6 to the Alternative Combat System. Bad judgment, tbqh)

>It's actually a pre-OD&D Arnesonian thing, from what I remember?
Yes, Arneson supposedly did this type of stuff, at least for a time.

>Something about giving originally giving 1000XP to someone when they returned with a magic sword.
I think you've got your anecdotes mixed up here, though -- the very first dungeon expedition involved the players finding a magic sword and all trying to pick it up but getting zapped by it, until Bill Hoyt managed to take it safely. Arneson declared on the spot that Bill was now a Hero instead of a Flunky. He didn't have an experience system back then; Fighters were just Flunkies, Heroes or Superheroes, and one of the ways you could become a Hero was to gain a magic blade. (The Comeback Inn forum has a few of these stories preserved)

>>54659125
Just don't have the animalfolk running around acting like fursuiters, and if anyone brings it up as a serious concern, say once, calmly, that it isn't a sexual thing, or a furry thing at all. If they won't shut up about it, consider carefully whether you have had the animalfolk behave in ways that could be construed as sexual, or whether you have a shit player.

Checking how the other players are acting about the whole thing may let you know which.

Either way, having an animal-person, or having a character be barefoot, or having a character who crossdresses, are not inherently magical realm. Do you happen to be a furry who's already told the players as much? If not, I wouldn't worry about it. If so, and you're worried they'll think it's a sex thing (apparently not all furries get off on it) then just find a different table to roll on.

>>54659125
It's a decade-old Something Awful meme, who gives a shit.

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>>54659441
>cross-dressing an animal people =/= magical realm
Case in point.

Seriously, people have really grown a thin skin these past twenty years or so.

So, quick opinion.

I want to run a Dungeon Crawler. Like in the veins of wizardry, everything would be focused on a single mega-dungeon and nothing outside of that. I also intend to turn this into a dynamic dungeon, where anyone can challenge it, and anything that happens in there stays for ALL sessions, like in the really old days.

I've come to the realization though that this means that other than the first trip, gold might be scarce. So, like in other DRPGs, I need to balance XP to come from monsters. I've been thinking of mulitplying all monster XP by 10 and just leaving it at that, but I wanted to hear second opinions.

>>54658427
>Given a rule where you take 20d6 damage from terminal velocity falls, the Fighter gets splattered 91.49% of the time.
But Anon said "can survive". Surviving 8% of the time definitely seems better than one could normally hope for.

Besides, a +2 Con bonus means 68.5 average HP and that in turn means surviving nearly half the time, 42%. Same goes for a Fighter with above-average HP rolls.

>>54659441
Good advice, I dont plan on running anything in a sexual way and not a furry. So it should be fine.
Anyways, /osrg/ whats your favorite faction system? I really like how stars without numbers does it, but I feel like it's a little too jeedlessly conolex for what I want to do with it.

>>54659125
Grow a pair of balls/ovaries and just fucking do what you want to do?

>>54659659
I've no beef with XP for monsters but if I had to reduce the gold rewards, I would design XP rewards around exploring the dungeon and certain objectives based on rumors that players choose to commit to ('Okay we want to find out what happened to Marcyn and his Blood Red Sandals when he got to the 3rd level of the dungeon' 'That'll be worth 20,000 XP').

Also, you don't need to use gold and/or coins all the time, you can just sprinkle dungeon with really valuable and pricey objects.

>>54659922
>Also, you don't need to use gold and/or coins all the time, you can just sprinkle dungeon with really valuable and pricey objects.
Oh I already do that. I too have that pdf.

I do like the idea of quest rewards, but the reason for this isn't to reduce gold rewards, it's to make sure that people can still appropriately tackle the dungeon even if some other shitters recently cleaned it out of materials.

>>54659659
>>54659950
Keep the gold standard for pricing, but do 1 sp = 1 XP?

If monsters are the main source of XP, it encourages killing monsters instead of exploring and searching for treasure. Which is fine, but OSR fights tend to be lethal (especially at low levels).

I think with such high XP I'd be tempted to "grind" in the first few rooms. Might as well get to level 5 from those goblin/vermin restocks before moving on to the lower levels of the dungeon.

>>54657939
WRT quadratic wizards--

I just don't think the problem gets that dramatic in OSR. For a 6th level magic user, one more first level spell per day isn't *that* useful. The fighter's mechanical progression might look a little dull compared to the wizard getting a new spell level, but the transition to domain level play should be giving the fighter interesting new things to do.

MUs can spam the few damaging spells they have and sort of upstage the fighter (for a few rounds anyways), but that would be a waste, considering all the cool stuff they could do instead.

What made 3e casters get really cheesy (IMO) was that you could game the numbers and feats to do stuff like cast multiple spells per round, make your spells extra difficult to save against, bonus spells, prestige classes with full spell progression in addition to the other goodies, summon numerous loyal combatants... Meanwhile the guy leveling up straight fighter has to stack up feats to do stuff that an OD&D fighter should be able to attempt at level one. The caster with high CHA can even beat him at the domain game using the leadership feat!

I'm working on my own OSR game, more or less compatible with 0e.

I want to have six classes, one for each attribute.
The goal is to keep them from overlapping too much and make sure everyone has their uses. This is what I have so far.

>Charisma-based cleric, based on this post: https://9and30kingdoms.blogspot.com/2011/05/clerics-without-spells.html
>Clerics are good at attracting followers and negotiating, and gain the ability to turn undead and pray for miracles

>Constitution - Not sure yet.

>Dexterity - Thief
>Just like usual.

>Intelligence - Psion
>looking for a fairly simple, straightforward psionicist class to use for this

>Strength - Warrior
>just renamed fighter

>Wisdom - Ranger
>good at finding clues, following trails, wilderness survival.

>>54660539
>Constitution - Barbarian

>>54658797
Which version is the newest one? I'm not a backer but here has up to v0.11. Also posted on his G+ account.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4qCWY8UnLrcQWJULXM3TjJ3b3M

>>54660590
Feels like too much overlap with fighter. They both kill shit as their primary focus. With all the others, the killing-shit capacity is there, but it isn't their bread-and-butter like it is for the fighter.

>>54659659
>I've come to the realization though that this means that other than the first trip, gold might be scarce.
Nah. The rule of thumb that gets quoted here that a megadungeon level should contain 3-4 times the amount of treasure needed to let a party of the same level gain one (eg on level 1, there should be 3-4 times the gold needed to let a level 1 party reach level 2). Just bump that up to 5x and parties can level up for a long time without you needing to add sublevels or migrating monsters (but you should do at least the latter though, especially in a persistent megadungeon. Permanent doesn't mean static). It shouldn't be necessary for any one party to map the entirety of any given level, and especially if you mean to run many parties in a persistent dungeon it adds a cool dimension if they can compare maps and have only partially-overlapping knowledge.

>>54660539
I once saw a blog post with a minimalist psionic class posted around here. It was built with the author's homebrew setting in mind but was easy to adapt. I'll poke around for a bit and see if I can find it

>>54660658
That would be great. Thanks!

>>54660476
Well, as tempted as you may be, it would still be difficult all things considered. You're also losing out on the GP you would normally have for that level. By level 2, a fighter should have 2,000gp, enough to buy plate mail and/or a magic weapon. But if you level up at x10 the speed with less potential gold to find, you might hit level 3 or 4 before you can even think about spending on that higher end equipment.

>>54660628
Do you have any sauce or reading on that? I would love to read up on someone's lessons and experiences learned from that.

>>54660669
http://udan-adan.blogspot.com/2015/07/denizens-of-wicked-city-7-blighted-and.html

The rules for playing them as a class are near the bottom, after the table. Seeing them more closely, you'll also have to adapt the 3.5 saves and change the primary stat.

>>54660539
The ranger's role seems a little limited, unless finding clean water, travelling through trackless wilderness, etc are big parts of the game. Perhaps they should also be the only character with a ranged sneak attack?

In that scheme, the fighter should be the only one with good combat advancement, just to make sure none of the classes play like "fighter with more cool stuff".

I'd love to see more when you have a finished draft.

>>54660895
Thanks for the advice. I'm still working things out. Ranged sneak attack is a good idea.

Or treat aiming like the way spells are treated in some editions, so that you can declare an enemy at the beginning of the round and hit them at the end of the round for massive damage if they fail to get behind cover?

>>54659221
>caring about armor
Nah man. FCT.

>>54660539
You could make a pretty interesting constitution MU.
Maybe draw inspiration from Last Gasp Grimoire's MU as well?

>>54660539
>>54661233
CON could be some kind of monk too... A guy with low combat damage, but very good resistance to status effects, spells, etc. Not sure what else he could do... maybe minor self heals, buffs that aid in forced marches, uplifting songs, better mobility in rough terrain, the ability to carry more than his strength would indicate (including a KO'd fighter in armor).

You could also call him the "survivor" or "yeoman" or something else that suits the aesthetic of the game.

>>54660539
Maybe a guardian / defender class of some sort could be your Constitution-based class? Basically, you'd aspect your warrior to be more offensive, and your guardian to be more defensive. Maybe guardians have the ability to try to block / intercept attacks made at nearby allies.

Alternately, maybe you could run a druid or shifter of some sort off Constitution. They use the life force within their body to power their magic. Maybe you mix in a bit of shaman and optionally make them rather bestial in nature.

A monk class of some sort that stresses fitness of the body could work too. Monks usually feel out of place to me in standard, Medieval Europe-themed fantasy though, so that would make me hesitate on this one.

>>54660625
The Ranger also kills shit as its primary focus since it's a warrior class with the ability to use any weapons/armor and d10 HD.

My PCs cleared 2/3rds of an old tomb. They then left for 3 weeks. What moved into the tomb in that 3 weeks, /osrg/?

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>>54662063
dog niggas

>>54660771
>Well, as tempted as you may be, it would still be difficult all things considered.

I just think it's an easy rut to fall into. The B/X values are great since they give you incentive to explore, avoid fights, make fights easier, and use factions to your advantage.

If you know that every encounter isn't scaled to your level (as in later games), but chances are the weaker monsters are on the first dungeon level AND they're worth a boatload of XP, that's a goldmine to be exploited. Minus the gold. Although there might occasionally be gold, and that's nice.

A way to balance it would be with high upkeep costs. You NEED to go further into the dungeon because those inn stays and iron rations are starting to lighten your purse. You can't keep killing kobolds forever, or else you'll end up a level 5 fighter who dies of starvation.

>>54661672
Seems like he's tweaking the original classes a bit already. The Ranger could just as easily be on the power level of a Thief, but with different special abilities.

But a separate Barbarian class doesn't make much sense if he's not about as good at fighting as a Fighter.

>>54662063
>a feuding ogre family
>an exiled wizard looking for a place to set up a new laboratory.

>>54653884
I've been running a campaign of it for about 25 sessions and my players think it's pretty rad.

Wanted to play it for a while, but it's pretty obscure so I was forced into GMing it myself. Of course, even most people who have heard of it think of the gonzo parody version of HM 4th edition instead of the actually playable HM 5th edition and never give it a second glance. Pretty stupid marketing decision on their part.

The problem with many of the old school classes is that they imply a backstory, instead of being a description of a set of abilities or tools. Thief, Ranger, and Cleric fall into this.

Compare the Fighter...
>Someone who fights
>This can be for a multitude of professional reasons, such as a soldier, and adventurer, or a bodyguard
>Can also just be what the person excels at, such as a bandit who steals by force, a tavern regular who gets into lots of barfights, or an exceptionally tough farmer who's had some discipline training

...and the Magic-User...
>Someone who uses magic
>Can be trained to use magic, or can be born with magical powers, depending on the setting
>Can be found in magic professions, but can also be commonly found in academic professions, or even bodyguard and mercenary professions
>Can have many reasons for knowing magic that is unrelated to their life profession, such as a noble's kid who was given Magic lessons.

...which are both classes that only dictate what the character knows as opposed to their life, as opposed to classes such as the thief...
>Steals for a living
>All class abilities are focused around being a pick pocket or cat burglar of some sort
>Backstory of character is usually forced to explain current life as member of thieves guild unless player gets exceptionally creative

...or the cleric...
>Priest.
>Is never not a priest.
>Cannot not a priest or might risk losing favor and powers
>Takes an extremely lax DM to slide on this

...or the ranger
>Entire class is described essentially as an outdoorsman
>Usually winds up being a lone squatter in the woods
>Other than forest hobo who hunts, it's hard to describe what the Ranger's purpose in life is other than being alone in the woods

You should focus on what the class is trying to do, and if possible, divorce it from roleplay function and instead make it a set of tools that a person can come across in their life.

>>54662063

A basilisk which laid its eggs and then abandoned them. When the PCs arrive, the clutch has hatched, and though the baby basilisks gaze hasn't yet matured, they can still cause mild paralysis and disorientation. They also bite, and being swarmed by them is like being covered in six legged land piranhas.

>>54662063
Descendants of entombed on pilgrimage, mad about desecration.
Hobgoblin equivalent refugees fleeing an even greater horde.
Corpse eating amoebas that pick up partial memories and culture from skulls they consume.

>>54662371

D&D already has a pretty strict fluff on its magic system, but you aren't trying hard enough.

Rogues are obviously people who steal. If you rename them to Rogues from Thieves, it helps a lot. They can be thieves, burglers, highwaymen, robin hood types, sinbad the sailor, and so on.

Clerics can be fluffed as holy men, their healing powers coming from practically any source; maybe not even the Gods but just from a totally stoic and pure lifestyle, and having Gods in general for them to worship (or only one God) is already a perfect way to tether them to the setting.

Rangers I'll give you that, but Rangers are practically just a refluffed Fighter with a high Wisdom score. You could still fluff him as a mountain man, game warden, half-magic fae person, or an elf.

>>54659393
Seeing a lot of talk about gp value of magical items or some shit here and incomplete lists. xp*5=gp or xp*10=gp is the formula used when compiling the Encyclopedia Magica series whenever an item only had one value listed.

>>54662526
>Rogues are obviously people who steal. If you rename them to Rogues from Thieves, it helps a lot. They can be thieves, burglers, highwaymen, robin hood types, sinbad the sailor, and so on.
Which is what WotC attempted, and in my opinion, it honestly doesn't work too well. It's just shifting the perspective from "Shady cat burglar" to "Dashing heroic burglar". All of the abilities are still either focused on being a thief (sneak attack, emphasis on stealing, pick pocketing, etc), or in later editions, just turns into generic skill monkey who also speaks thieves cant and sneak attacks. Both hallmarks of a thief.

Furthermore, highwaymen are just plain better as fighter classes, Robin Hood is undoubtedly one of the archetypes of a Ranger, and Sinbad was also just a fighter. You're not divorcing thief from a profession, you're just shifting the descriptor to "Dashing figure" which doesn't really mean anything when compared to Fighter or Magic-User's set of skills.

>Clerics can be fluffed as holy men, their healing powers coming from practically any source
Provided you have an extremely lax DM that allows you to slide on this, especially because at minimum 30% of world building is making a pantheon of gods to deal with the Clerics in the setting on the pretext they are priests. Plus, your description is blatantly from 5e's DMG, and is not the norm of the industry as a whole. Hell, even in 5e, I had someone go into a tizzy because I wanted to have an atheist cleric who healed using medicine combined with magic. The idea is too ingrained into people.

>Rangers are practically just a refluffed Fighter with a high Wisdom score. You could still fluff him as a mountain man, game warden, half-magic fae person, or an elf.
And that's the huge problem with rangers. Rangers aren't really a class. Rangers are "Outdoorsy Fighters". If it's a Ranger, and it's not a fighter, or not a huntsman type, then it's not a ranger. Ranger is a descriptor, not a class.

>>54662526
>D&D already has a pretty strict fluff on its magic system,
Forgotten Realms notwithstanding, there are 1,000,000 and 7 ways to fluff:
• can do weird shit a limited number of times
• needs to refresh their on-hand weird shit

Maybe you translate bedtime stories for a young Old One.
Maybe your lymph is Grade B potion reagent. What's a potion? Doesn't matter.
Maybe you trap starlight in your abhuman ferromagnetic brain.
Maybe you're just really, really lucky and no one has caught on.
Maybe your lungs are full of ice and some wolves owe you a favor.

>>54660539
> constitution - demonhost

>>54660539
courtney campbell's "perdition" has a psychic class. It's not particularly simple though.

File: 1498953203709.jpg (751KB, 1300x962px) Image search: [Google]

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I feel like a retard, but I'm looking for a certain file (Slumbering Ursine Dunes) in the MEGA trove and I can't seem to find it. Does anyone know if it's in there, or would any kind anon be willing to post it?

Have some neat landscape art in return.

>>54660943
I've never heard of this but I like the idea for aiming a ranged attack.

>>54662371
>they imply a backstory

This is fine. I see this as a strength rather than a weakness.

The most heartbreaking thing in later editions/games is when someone tells me their half-elf rogue's parents were killed by the Yotsuba Clan and now they seek revenge but until then it's dungeon exploring, but hey maybe I can work those ninja assassins in somewhere and--oh they got killed by an ogre.

You roll up a character quickly, you come up with a backstory quickly. Tower of the Stargazer has good advice on this. You're a thief from the big city? Then you know about Urbo McStealton, the Master Robber.

The real story is what you do in the game. If you kill the ogre chieftain on the second level, then you've ended his reign of tyranny against the local villagers. You didn't just write that down, it actually happened. And if you die quickly instead? Who cares, just roll another character.

>>54660539
>no Magic-User
MORE LIKE TRAGIC-USER

I know some games use playing cards to somewhat balance out probability over time. Does anyone have any experience with using this idea in OSR? Would it be doable and what would be the pros/cons?

>>54663676
I just think it's rather limiting, especially when a lot of these classes can only make a living in one predefined way. Some of them aren't even really adventuring classes. Clerics have little reason to go gold hunting, especially if they're good aligned. Rangers have little reason to go adventuring with other people in general, and thieves are iffy unless they focus on disarming traps. While the class balance works out mechanically, the story behind them are generally not anything other than specifically designed for one single trope in the party.

>but you CAN make this kind of backstory! Just do th-
That's not really solving the inherent flaw, you're writing around the flaw, and more often than not, it comes out a little hammy. Again, compare the fighter/magic-user to the ranger and their story options.

>My fighter is on adventure because he's a fighter and his skills are needed.
>My fighter is doing his job as a fighter because of quest and/or personal reasons
>My fighter is NOT doing his job as a fighter because he is laying low because of quest/law reasons
>My fighter is acting unlike a fighter due to these story reasons

vs.

>My ranger is on adventure because his class functions like a fighter
>My ranger is acting unlike a ranger because this is a party-based game and I'm required by table manners to get along with the rest of the cast
>My ranger is on a journey with people specifically because of this quest reason, and also one of the reasons above is my justification for not doing it on my own.

The fighter has dozens of options to choose from, and by extension of my argument, so does the magic-user. The ranger is limited because the definition of a Ranger is "fighter who is an outdoors hermit/hunter"

Your example is charming, but it's a case of falling into the system because it's comfortable and familiar. Why can't we have someone who can specialize in traps while also not making their living as a "Lawful Good" Thief?

>>54663942
>Why can't we have someone who can specialize in traps while also not making their living as a "Lawful Good" Thief?
Freeing up character creation like that requires a classless approach, or so many classes that it may as well be classless. That can be point-buy, professions, or whatever other chargen system you'd like to try. But does going classless mean you're no longer playing OSR? Does that matter?

>>54663676
>but hey maybe I can work those ninja assassins in somewhere and--oh they got killed by an ogre.
It's within your sphere on influence to insist their new dude picks up any loose threads they contrived.
The new full-elf they rolled sold out her own parents as a dowry (of sorts) to get into the Yotsuba clan.

>>54664013
I've also thought of that, but I don't think classless is the answer. Rather what I'm asking for is class design that is divorced from backstory. I don't have a problem with Fighter and Magic-User, but Thief and Cleric both presuppose a background of the character whereas Fighter and MU does not.

The problem that I'm putting on the table:
Is it at all possible to divorce classes like Thief, Cleric, Ranger, etc from their fantasy-game stereotypes and make them describe a broader ranger of characters and possibly skill sets?

I believe at the very least, this can be done for the cleric. In fact, it has been for ages in games like Final Fantasy, where Cleric becomes White Mage, which focuses on a branch of magic that is dedicated to healing and protection, as opposed to god-mandated miracles granted for the idea of becoming a missionary to spread around the word. I think Ranger could also become Archer, which is a fighter focused on ranged fighting, etc.

Surely this is something that we can do to improve things all around, is it not?

>>54664145

You can always remove Clerics and their magic (or fold their spells into the Magic User) and remove Thieves entirely.

Every adventurer then is just a variant Fighter or Magic User. Pick your fighting style, or pick your magical tradition, and done.

Making a dedicated "archer class" gets into the troublesome territory of "Fighter, but better" or "Fighter, but more specific". At this point you end up having Myrmidons "Fighter, but heavy armor" and Cavaliers "Fighter, but mounted", and that's really just a preferred fighting style, and shouldn't be a distinct class.

>>54663942
I think you're viewing it back-to-front. You don't have to explain everything.

I liked 5E's backgrounds at first. You're not just a rogue, you're a criminal! Or maybe you're playing against type and you're a noble! Or we could just reduce that (along with race) into a fantasy archetype called a class. Write a sentence or two about how you're a thief who used to be a noble. Then you recognize the ancient crest of the LeGrasse family when it comes up in the dungeon. Done.

Then the general expectation is that you're a group of people of different classes and alignments who go on an adventure together. That's not so crazy. You ally with people you disagree with all the time in real life, because you work at the same place or want to attain the same goal. So the fighter is on a quest to retrieve the Holy Artifact, and he's accepted the help of the Chaotic Thief to do it. Welcome to D&D.

>>54664309
>Making a dedicated "archer class" gets into the troublesome territory of "Fighter, but better" or "Fighter, but more specific". At this point you end up having Myrmidons "Fighter, but heavy armor" and Cavaliers "Fighter, but mounted", and that's really just a preferred fighting style, and shouldn't be a distinct class.
Very true, but keep in mind, I also haven't solved this conundrum. If I had, I would be introducing my own set of rules instead of polling people on 4chan.

>>54664390
>You don't have to explain everything.
While true, stories that do explain oddities like that tend to be stronger stories in general. Also, I object to the idea that viewing it from back-to-front is wrong. One of the first things you wind up doing for most games after rolling stats is picking class, because class is a deciding factor in a multitude of things in general, such as your HP, your set of skills, your equipment you can use, etc. But when I pick certain classes, my narrative options become very narrow if I want to keep the character interesting and not a wacky trope-breaker.

>Then the general expectation is that you're a group of people of different classes and alignments who go on an adventure together. That's not so crazy.
Yes it's absolutely insane. Different classes is one thing, but different alignments and personalities? Most half-decent DMs don't even allow that. I may work with people I don't like at times, but that's never because Todd is a outragous pickpocket who kills babies because he's Evil yes this is an exaggerated stereotype. I'm not changing it, but I'm not interested in arguing the metaphor. Deal with it.. I dislike Todd because he doesn't do his job and pull his weight but is otherwise an agreeable guy, and that's why I work with him.

It's not like I'm not aware of the misfit-band-of-orphan adventuring stereotype, but I think it's something that can be fixed, and I don't really see a reason not to attempt it.

>>54663942
>Some of them aren't even really adventuring classes.
It's sort of an unspoken rule that your character is, for whatever reason, interested in treasure hunting or adventuring. That's part of the creative load players have to lift to get the enjoyment of playing. I don't think the cleric or the ranger has any more or less reason to adventure than the Magic User or the Fighter.

In fact the Thief has the most obvious call to adventure, because their implicit backstory is that they have no problem facing danger to take valuable shit from others.

I think of Clerics more like itinerant Jedi Knights. They have responsibilities to their church, but most people conducting services and leading the faithful are regular humans with no magical powers. A level 10 Cleric is a prophet, who might be at the head of a schismatic cult rather than a figure within the church hierarchy.

>>54660539
http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/10882/chainmail-styled-wizard

>>54663942
>My fighter is on adventure because he's a fighter and his skills are needed.
>My fighter is doing his job as a fighter because of quest and/or personal reasons
>My fighter is NOT doing his job as a fighter because he is laying low because of quest/law reasons
>My fighter is acting unlike a fighter due to these story reasons

I don't see how any of these couldn't be applied to a ranger (or virtually any class).

>>54664549
>It's sort of an unspoken rule that your character is, for whatever reason, interested in treasure hunting or adventuring.
For dungeon crawls, maybe. Depends on the setting, and 2e definitely did not shy away from the call to high adventure.

>I don't think the cleric or the ranger has any more or less reason to adventure than the Magic User or the Fighter.
I explained it above, but the Ranger is defined as being an anti-social hermit that rarely has reason to actually gather gold, and the Cleric is supposed to be a Pious holy man more or less outfitted for crusading or preaching rather than entering into dungeons to rob gold from the dead. By default both classes have little reason to adventure.

>because their implicit backstory is that they have no problem facing danger to take valuable shit from others.
Isn't a large characteristic of thieves being weak and prone to running and fighting dirty? I think you're confusing a skillset designed to open traps for "Being daring in the face of danger". Their whole shtick is to AVOID danger.

>>54664610
>I don't see how any of these couldn't be applied to a ranger (or virtually any class).
The fighter's skills are self-explanatory on why they're needed. He fights. The ranger...ranges? He tracks, but there's no explicit reason why nobody else can do that.
The fighter has a multitude of backgrounds that can tie into a quest. The ranger's background of being an outdoorsman means that he might get a message from a nature god. Or a druid. Maybe?
The fighter can act unlike a fighter in many different ways and do so rather successfully and within character of the fighter archetype and the available backgrounds. Rangers by partying up are acting unlike rangers by default and must be shoehorned into an adventure under table etiquette rather than naturally.

>>54664679
>2e
>OSR
????

Take that shit away from here.

>>54664740
>AD&D 1e is OSR
>2e, which is largely the same set of rules and is widely considered compatible, isn't

Did I click on /v/ again today?

>>54664766
2e brought the game out of dungeons and ditched all gold=XP rules. It's no longer OSR.

>>54664788
>1e Unearthed Arcana
>Wilderness Adventures
????

>>54664145
what you're saying is you want feats

>>54664145
What a character is mechanically capable of doing is their fluff. If I don't have lockpicking, but I call myself somebody good at picking locks, the mechanics win out as I cannot actually pick locks within the context of the game. Same goes for classes: They will always inform background and fluff. Hence why classless, or a jRPG style with three dozen classes (pick three), or pure profession-based design, etc.

>>54664951
I already addressed the idea of classless character building above. Please don't hyperbole it into feats.

>>54665004
The mechanics dictate the fluff, but certain mechanics force certain fluff, as opposed to other mechanics that allow for fluff to be wide-ranged and more dynamic. I have given many examples of this already.

My thought is fixing the mechanics so that it does not force certain fluff, rather than just making excuses for it such as "It's D&D, what do you expect" and other things like that.

>>54664679
>The fighter's skills are self-explanatory on why they're needed. He fights. The ranger...ranges?

You don't see how a wilderness survival expert, scout and tracker might be useful in an adventuring party? I'm sure other people could learn those skills, but in the same sense there's nothing stopping a wizard learning to fight.

>The fighter has a multitude of backgrounds that can tie into a quest. The ranger's background of being an outdoorsman means that he might get a message from a nature god. Or a druid. Maybe?

The class is to some degree based on the rangers of Middle-Earth, who weren't unknown to adventure. In a more traditional gold-digging campaign they might be looking for money to support their village, they might want to hone their skills or see new places. Or, they might have noticed the signs of dark forces at work and gone adventuring to put them down. Their traditional emphasis on hunting certain monsters might tie in to a tragic backstory event. They might have a Moby Dick kind of thing going on with a particular monster. They might be writing their own ranger's almanac and want to research it themselves.

They might literally just be a guide hired by the party to help them find a ruin out in the wilderness or just help in the general business of adventuring. I'm not sure I recognise this idea of rangers being anti-social hermits.

>the Cleric is supposed to be a Pious holy man more or less outfitted for crusading or preaching rather than entering into dungeons to rob gold from the dead.

They could be looking for money for their church, or they could be corrupt and venal. They might be trying to find holy relics or put down the restless dead. Maybe they're following the vague dictates of their god and/or church. The cleric is such a broad class in terms of religion that you can really do all sorts of things with it.

>>54664679
Not trying to pick a fight with you here, but it seems like your head canon is getting in the way. AFAIK every edition of D&D explains that Clerics (at least those played by PCs) are adventuring clergy with a broad mandate to do their god's bidding as they see fit.

The Ranger could be a jolly nice guy with tons of friends and followers. He just happens to have some wilderness themed abilities that the fighter doesn't.

If you want archetypes with a broader appeal, I'd suggest using Lamentations of the Flame Princess specialists instead of thieves... As for clerics, call them "White Wizards" or "Mystics" instead.

The Magic User might seem more generic, but they're actually pretty setting specific. The mechanics alone tell us that
>magic is real
>it can be useful for mundane tasks like locking doors, or carrying treasure
>which means it's a human tool, not just weird phenomena that comes from God or fairies or whatever
>spells are expressed in formula that can be put into a book
>they are then stored in the wizard's memory like bullets in a gun

File: Lenard Lakofka, Dragon #1.png (2MB, 1869x6821px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1869x6821px

>>54643934
>What the hell am I supposed to make of that?
Google.
>The trove is a fucking mess.
If you know what you're looking for, it's right where it should be. Or sometimes in Inbox.
You know a better way to organize it?

>>54663376
03_OSR Games |||| Labyrinth Lords |||| Adventures |||| Hydra Collective (Chris Kutalik) |||| Sumbering Ursine Dunes.pdf
Sumbering Ursine Dunes Maps.pdf is fully redundant with page 11, I've no idea why it's available separately.

>>54665117
>You don't see how a wilderness survival expert, scout and tracker might be useful in an adventuring party?
In dungeon and city environments? Full time? Even if you're playing a full wilderness campaign, isn't that more or less of a case of the DM making the scenario justify the Ranger's presence?

>I'm not sure I recognise this idea of rangers being anti-social hermits.
The most commonly picked background for Ranger, Druid, and Barbarian in 5e is hermit, and outdoorsmen are commonly given this attribute of wanting to be away from people. I don't buy into the idea that Ranger really had much to do with middle-earth in anything other than maybe name and dual-wielding.

Also
>They might literally just be a guide hired by the party to help them find a ruin out in the wilderness
Okay, we're out of the wildnerness...you can stop following us now...

>They could be looking for money for their church, or they could be corrupt and venal.
Yes, you happened upon the most commonly shoehorned reasons for a cleric to be adventuring, as opposed to say, running donations, spreading the word of their god, tending to priestly duties, working their corruption in with city politicians, etc, etc.

>They might be trying to find holy relics or put down the restless dead.
That sounds like a good idea, but it's more like a single questline, and honestly I think fighter or thief ties more into that than a priest. But I could buy it maybe.

>The cleric is such a broad class in terms of religion that you can really do all sorts of things with it.
It's really not though. Your options are strictly limited to the light of being a priest. Even all your examples are through the lens of being in a church, and you're often stretching logic to force the Cleric to have a reason to adventure, as opposed to having a natural reason to adventure.

>>54665125
>but it seems like your head canon is getting in the way.
Head-canon? Clerics are literally described as priests who must prey to their god to gain their miracles in every single edition of D&D. What are you talking about?

>The Ranger could be a jolly nice guy with tons of friends and followers.
You're no longer describing the ranger at that point, you're describing a multiclassed fighter. The entire description of a ranger is an outdoors focused fighter. It always has been. When the ranger leaves the outdoors, it ceases to fall into the ranger archetype. Which is one of the reasons I have such a problem with ranger.

>If you want archetypes with a broader appeal, I'd suggest using Lamentations of the Flame Princess specialists instead of thieves... As for clerics, call them "White Wizards" or "Mystics" instead.
I like those options, but surely we can do better than simple name changes?

>The Magic User might seem more generic,
That's because they really are. If you use magic, you are a magic user. What you're suggesting is like saying that a fighter is setting specific because the mechanics tell us that we have to roll to attack.

>>54665303
Do you play games? It's really sounding like you don't play games. These things aren't an issue in practice.

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>>54665303
>I don't buy into this idea that Ranger really had much to do with middle earth in anything other than maybe name and dual wielding.

They were literally added to OD&D because people wanted to play as Aragorn and the Dunedain. That's why in the older versions they're required to be lawful. They're not nature hermits, those are druids, they're more like people fighting off nature to preserve civilization.

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>>54665361
We need to issue a fatwa on armchair game designers for they are killing rational OSR discussion

>>54664788
>ditched all gold=xp rules
By keeping advancement tables exactly the same and also maintaining gold=xp advancement rules, the same as they always were?

Oh no, they used BLUE in the printing process, not just black! Cyan ink, deadly poison! Must ignore everything in a blue box!

>>54665361
I've been playing for years. I'm just pointing out things that naturally play out the same way every time due to the preconceived notions of fantasy RPGs in general.

>>54665379
Isn't presenting a hobby-wide problem and discussing it interesting and rational OSR discussion? Please state why it is not in clear terms.

>>54665303

Clerics in D&D were based on one of Gygax's player's character who was a Van Helsing type monster slayer (specifically, an undead hunter, as one of the big bads of the campaign was a PC-turned-vampire).

Clerics, as presented, are church appointed monster slayers. They recover treasure because it does no good in the hands of evil. You can refluff them to be inquisitors hunting heretics and apostates, or even crusaders hunting infidels (I do in my own setting).

NPC priests should not generally have spellcasting, and should not explicitly be adventurer Clerics if they do. They should 0-level normal men.

>>54643934
>Is it a sandbox campaign setting?
>>run a sandbox campaign in your own Yoon-Suin - a region of high adventure shrouded in ancient mysteries
Clearly.
>Does it belong to one of the nearly three dozen OSR game systems
Does Yoon-Suin's blurb rub one in your face? Does the Monsters and Manuals blog obsess over a system?
System agnostic material goes in the Supplements folder.