/srg/ - Shadowrun General - Vapourwave For All

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>Right, it’s racism. It’s not that you just get sensitive when you’re given advice.
>Clockwork
>You hear the same piece of advice in your life a hundred times when you’ve done nothing to show you need it, and we’ll see what you think.
>2XL

So did the authors of Complete Trog forget that Clockwork is a hobgoblin, aka "the orc metatype so hideous and accused of hair-trigger tempers that they are entirely reviled everywhere they are found"?

I swear, this whole book is just character assassination of 2XL.

Does Shadowrun have any deadly air rifles?

https://youtu.be/XS4ANd0NCQQ

Does anyone have that giant analysis of all the martial arts options available in Run & Gun? I'd like to make a martial artist for shits and giggles so it seems handy.

>>54613718
Search for "6000 Words on Martial Arts"

>>54613757
Found it, thanks.

>>54613554
>vaporwave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzK79PgKITI

>>54613656
Do we really have to talk about that book again? Can't we just try and forget it ever happened?

>>54614355
Not until they give us something new to pick at.

For those gen fags that went from 4e to 5e, tell one thing you miss, then one you like

I miss the adept power that let you use a mental stat instead of a physical for skills and combat abilities. Over costed and uselessfor the most part, but cool as hell to give your cancer patient a rock hard body or an intellectual blindingly fast reflexes.

Meanwhile in 5e i'm glad that adepts can get counterspell now, it's about time someone other then mages had a way to deal with mages.

>>54608285
Depends on how you do it, but at the very least it wouldn't result in things like the Control Rig echo in the core book, then the retard replacement in Data Trails for when they forgot (/wanted to get passive aggressive in shutting down how) Control Rigs also daisy chain into Data Jack rules.

>>54614672
I miss cheap 'ware. Sure, you can start with almost twice as much nuyen now, but things are triple or more the prices that they were, so it more than evens out.

I miss getting to play a troll without feeling like I was shooting myself in the foot. The other metatypes were probably too cheap in 4e, but they're way too expensive in 5e.

Most everything else is better about 5e, though.

>>54614672
>I miss the adept power that let you use a mental stat instead of a physical for skills and combat abilities.
Mind Over Matter. Shame everything but Logic = Agility was nearly useless shit.

I miss AI rules that were only below par compared to other options, and could reach 'situationally useful' when not pretending to be the street samurai.

And Unwired's Technomancer stuff.

The 5e matrix might be smoother and less 'pizza time' than any before it, but that's only because they dropped any pretence of functionality or making sense once you scratch the surface. They need to keep the simplicity of actions, but in a matrix that is more than the sum of its parts rather than less.

And give deckers sidegrade options to pulling out a firearm when shit happens - that fit within the speed of combat.

>>54614743
>I miss cheap 'ware
The problem with cheap ware was that it wasn't on par with the cost of attributes or adept power that raise attributes. Which meant that adepts could benefit from it better than anyone else.

>>54614774
GM allowed the (will I think) to Body apply to your condition boxes, so it wasn't total shit for me, but yeah, logic=agility was actually pretty solid for the most part.

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>>54614774
I don't think there's a reasonable way to have the Matrix make sense from a CS standpoint while still keeping things like deckers who go in themselves on the spur of the moment viable. I'm alright with the 5e version; it's a lot of shenanigans if you try to riddle out the underlying architecture, but it's fine from a fluff perspective.

>>54614672
I miss the weirdness of 4e. For all that people bang on nowadays about muh snowflakes, 4e had a much more embracing attitude when it came to strangeness. 5e has a victimhood complex for everyone who isn't a vanilla human, which makes the world feel flat.

I like Limits. It was the kind of thing that's clearly a patch for a 4e problem, but they integrated it into the system successfully enough that people actually know their limits, or at least to check them when they roll 8 successes.

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>>54614672
I miss the fluff of the matrix being an open and free Mesh Network, allowing for script kiddies to be a thing, and technomancers being viable as more than just sprite spammers.

What I dont miss is the matrix rules, which are way better in 5e. And the fluff of the Matrix being this thing that we mad and has developed past our undersdtanding, or may have always existed is really cool to me. Theres also the fact that CGL is starting to develop a half-decent metaplot since theyve dropped CFD, what with Ares screwing with insect spirits and seeming to be on the verge of civil war, NeoNET collapsing, the Horrors maybe being a thing again, and blood magic evolving into something more gray than outright evil.

Of course for both editions I use(d) Ends of the Matrix when Im the GM, so the matrix bits are kinda a moot point.

>>54615511
>I don't think there's a reasonable way to have the Matrix make sense from a CS standpoint while still keeping things like deckers who go in themselves on the spur of the moment viable
I like the immune system concept of computer security. You can get immediate effects, but they're short lived at best. To bypass that, you need to fool the system into thinking you're legit, and that's slow work.

>>54615663
>allowing for script kiddies to be a thing
I don't miss retard PCs buying hacker boxes.

>>54615679
I should carfiy: the fact that hacker culture was similar to our own, where all you needed was a rasberry pi and pretty good code to do this kinda thing.
The fact that 5e doesn't have rules for coding your own software kinda bugs me, i like the idea of someone whose dirt poor, but was able to scrap together enough parts and has enough coding skills is able to make it as a decker.

>>54615663
While I enjoy there being shades of gray in a setting, there's also something to be said for being outright, unquestionably evil.

I see the dilution of bloodmagic as a bad step.

>>54615663
>And the fluff of the Matrix being this thing that we mad and has developed past our understanding, or may have always existed is really cool to me.
There's promise in all of it; what we're judging is execution. CGL is bad at keeping writers who can do good execution or rules.

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>>54613554
>What sort of casemods are you rocking?

My most recent character is missing the bottom half of her face and has it replaced with a partial cyber skull and some other mods. It comes out looking like pic related wth no real mouth or nose. Eats/drinks through a feeding hole in her neck and talks through a synthesizer. She actually got her face cut off by Vory who her deceased father owed money to and was told she'd get to have an actual face back when she got them their money. After they killed her mother, she escaped to Seattle instead. She'd have gotten a new real face if she had the Nuyen to afford it and the functionality of her current face. She also secretly kinda likes it.

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>>54613656
Are they suddenly wanting to portray Clockwork as Uncle Ruckus?

>>54616934
>There's powerful Orkatry at work here.

>>54616934
God yes

>>54615954
>I see the dilution of bloodmagic as a bad step.
It's harkening back to Earthdawn and some of the earlier novels, where there were things like a Christian priest who Awakened and wound up killing himself to summon a blood spirit "angel" during a fight with the Azzies.

http://earthdawn.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Magic

What does /tg/ think of Forbidden Arcana?

Why did we get another mage book & yet have no technomancer book?

What exactly would you use as an example to depict how Wired Reflexes looks, /srg/? So far I've got Pointman from F.E.A.R and VATS from Fallout.

Are city background counts all Toxic, given that they're all polluted to shit?

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>>54617308

>>54617267
Technomancer book was apparently killed by circumstance. The editor responsible for doing the ebooks had to quit CGL in order to make more time for his day job and the lead author left for personal reasons. With nobody pushing for it it's languished in editing hell. Word on the street is they're considering a new Matrix book that the TM book will fit into to come out sometime in 2018.
>>54617456
Not without GM fiat; Toxicity is a specific corruption of a domain, while pollution is more of a general miasma of unpleasantness.

>>54617267
>What does /tg/ think of Forbidden Arcana?

I like the references to Earthdawn in the Blood Magic rules, as well as at least some of the new Traditions, like the charismatic Christian one.

>>54617267
I really fucking like adept counterspelling and some of the fluff. Tons better than that shitty trog book

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>>54617521
>Technomancer book was apparently killed by circumstance.

>>54617308
That scene from the old Spiderman where he catches the girl in one arm and her lunch in the other after she slips.

>>54617782
You culd always stage a datasteal from LittleMac, get her design notes. Hell, hacking CGL's shit seems to be babytime frolics, you could probably get it out of their servers.

>>54617267
>What does /tg/ think of Forbidden Arcana?
Not /tg/, but;

>Forbidden Arcana, while filled with very bad mechanics, was filled with good ideas and clear efforts to "come across the aisle" and to reconcile some long standing problems with the community. For some people, the fact that the book is kinda bad takes precedence over the fact that there is a clear attempt to change. For others, the clear attempt to change means a lot.

>>54617521
>The editor responsible for doing the ebooks had to quit CGL in order to make more time for his day job and the lead author left for personal reasons.
Did the latter actually leave again, or just the first time?

Anyone have a website to handle the Tarot drawing of the tarot tradition? I have a player who wants to use it, but it's an online game.

Alternatively: Do we have a collection of decent res versions of the cards? I have someone who could make a site that does the drawing.

>>54618064
>Anyone have a website to handle the Tarot drawing of the tarot tradition?
Roll 1dX, where X = # of cards in the deck?

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>>54618085

Realizing I don't even know how many cards are in a Tarot deck.

Let's see. It contains all the standard cards of a 52-card deck, right? And then you add the major arcana, which there are 22 of?

So 74 cards?

>>54618064
http://serennu.com/tarot/pick.php?nc=1
No scans of the cards as far as I'm aware.
>>54618063
Not sure unfortunately, I'm just parroting things I read on the official forums from Hardy and Bull.

>>54618050
Who are you quoting? Google only turns up this thread.

>>54614672
Editing. Reading 5e books is an exercise in frusturation.
Compare just the table of contents of Data Trails to Unwired and look how clear one is vs another..

When it comes to mechanics, the ability to have charbuilds with nuance/stray from archetypes without completely compromising effectiveness. In 4e, there were a ton of variation within builds that you could have a hilarious time with. The non-magic roles in 5e have 2 if they're lucky. Deckers in 5e have 2 options: Data Spike specialist and Hack on the Fly specialist. Sams in 5e have Tank, Arm of God, and to a lesser degree Inspector Gadget. TMs have Sprite Spam. There's very little variation to do something unique and fun without playing an Adept or a Mage. Magic is I can do in every other system, becoming a cyborg frying people's brains with the internet is not.

But mostly, I just loathe the fact that all standard 5e Chargen has me feeling like a complete hobo who is a savant at one thing and one thing only.

>>54618229
Reddit.

>>54618248
Is this true with karmagen as welll as priority, or just with priotirty?

>>54618552
Worse with proirity but at least part of the problem is the widespread nerfing of gear and cost bloat, especially for deckers.

>>54618552
Karma gen hurts some of the archetypes even more, but it can help lower the overall powerlevel of the party, making some of the undervalued gameplay styles a bit more varied. But it doesn't help with the bigger issues.

>>54618552
All 3. Karmagen at 800 is the absolute worst for it. Every major item under 12 avail is very meticulously priced and the attributes are way too expensive to reach competency.

Let's say we do Automatics, the easiest skill in the game. We need to be competent with it, which /srg/ defines at 12 dice, but realistically is in the vicinity of ~16-14 to not be able to reliably miss.

Agility 6 is 100 karma. 700 remaining.
Automatics 6 is 42 Karma. We now have 12 dice to shoot. Basic competency . It's cost me 142 karma to be competent at just shooting my gun 648 remaining.
But as we all know, initative is king, so I need to pump that. Let's put REA/INT at 5. That is 140 karma for 10 INIT. But I need some INIT die on top of that. So let's do the easiest option and get Improved Reflexes 3. Adept is 20 karma and magic 6 is 100 karma. 398 karma remaining. Now I have Improved Reflexes 3. Because I'm AGI based, I may as well buy improved attribute and pump AGI. I'll use my spare .5 to boost Automatics, my primary role. Now I've got 15 dice in Automatics, 16 with Smartlink.

OK. Now I'm competent, have good initiative. Now I need to have survivability, so I don't get instantly melted when I get shot at or spelled. I need to grab WIL/BOD 3. Because I'm an AGI character, the group will want me to sneak, so I need sneaking. Might as well grab Palming so I can do more than see things when I sneak, so now I'm looking at Stealth Group 6. 243 karma remaining. 1 point in Firearms just incase I need another gun, 1 point in Athletics when I need it.

There is 235 karma remaining on what I would define as competence with the best character archetype in the game. That's enough karma left to afford a proper gun, a lifestyle, a car, roughly and 2 skill groups/4 extra skills at rank 6, which will likely be agility based. I have 3 attributes at 1, STR, LOG and CHA, and 2 Edge. This cost me 70.6% of my karma.

54618806
Addendum: Try making a decker, now. They require every mental stat at or near max, a chunk of edge, 5 skills from 2 skill groups, a 90k ware, and the most expensive item in the game. They require all of this to be utterly useless when outside of the van. Being just competent with a decker is hard, let alone good.

>>54618806
>Agility 6 is 100 karma. 700 remaining. Automatics 6 is 42 Karma.
Or you could go with Agility 5 and Automatics 5, and then just take a Smartlink in your glasses. Then some Muscle Replacements are, what, 30k nuyen for Rating 2? Then throw in some Alphaware Wired Reflexes, buy Restricted Gear to afford them, and you're sitting pretty. Buy some Jazz if you really want some more Initiative.

Bam, as competent as your example, but much cheaper.

>>54618806
So basically raise the starting karma level?

>>54619139
Or just not expect PCs to make characters that are literally one of the best people in the world at what they do and call it "competent".

How do you guys come up with an overarching plot after being rushed into being GM since nobody else wanted to step up to the plate? I have a general premise, and the first few sessions, but after that unsure where to take it.

>>54619173
The players will do something dumb you can use to grow a plot from.

>>54619158
But that isn't best in the world, that is competent, 12 dice is what you need to have a decent mathematical chance of succeeding at an opposed action.

>>54619125
Muscle Replacement is STR. Because STR is less useful, it's cheaper. It's Toner that increases AGI. Muscle Toner 2 is 64K, 32 Karma. Alphaware Wired Reflexes R3 +Restricted Gear are 260k, 130 karma + 15 = 145 + 32 = 177 for the total package. You save 30 karma having AgGI 5 and 12 karma for Automatics 5.

Total cost is 135 karma for the 'ware option at 12 automatics and 4d6 init vs 142 karma and 4d6 init for the Adept option, except the Adept option leaves me with maxed out at chargen stats/skill (Something I will likely not be able to karma bank to improve until like 6 IRL months have passed), leaves me with 6.0 essence, does not use those critical chargen qualities on restricted gear, and leaves me with 4 more dice in automatics.

12 dice in automatics is the competency level of a high level mook. It is tolerable, not reliable, and you'll be constantly letting your group down with having to full auto/missing not uncommonly when the enemy goes full defense. 12 dice is enough to usually kill just the one one guy you're shooting at. What if you need to split the dicepool to save someone and yourself? - Even full autoing, that's usually 6 vs ~2-4 dice, which fails frequently. What if you have a -2 wound/stun penalty and the guy uses full defense? You and your team are boned unless you edgespam, and relying on edgespam as a non-edge character means you fucked up at chargen. You're the combat guy, yet you're unreliable at combat.

>>54619125
>Or you could go with Agility 5 and Automatics 5, and then just take a Smartlink in your glasses
You could go even further, and do crazy, unheard-of-in-white-room-bs things like *aiming*!

>>54619297
>Muscle Replacement is STR
That's Muscle Augmentation. Muscle Replacement is Str & Agi.

>>54619297
>Muscle Replacement is STR. Because STR is less useful, it's cheaper. It's Toner that increases AGI.
I'm talking about the Cyber, not the Bio. It boosts both.

>12 dice in automatics is the competency level of a high level mook.
No, it's the competency of an elite special forces soldier on the level of the Navy Seals or SAS. Most enemies would have like 6-8 dice unless your PCs are dumb enough to piss off the elite of the elite.

>>54619337
OK, that's saving 7 karma. Correcting my totals, that's 127 vs 147 karma. for the cost of 20 karma you get 4 dice in your primary skill, save your essence, and do not have to burn 15 of your 25 total chargen quality karma on restricted gear. I'd say that's a good trade.

>>54619364
You're omitting the cost of the Adept quality and Magic 6 attribute. Try 127 vs 267. That's a much larger difference, don't you think?

>>54619364
Smartgun +2, Take Aim +2, Specialisation +2 that leaves 6 dice to fill in with Agility & Skill.

3 Agility / 3 Skill costs how much?

>>54619297
>you'll be constantly letting your group down with having to full auto/missing not uncommonly when the enemy goes full defense
Throw in some cheap recoil compensation and a firearm that can do FA.

>>54619359
>High level mook
yes, like corpsec, it's not a boss, it's a high level enemy.

Check enemies.pdf. R4 organized crime gang members have 10 dice in automatics and 8 to dodge, and they'll probably be using drugs. R5 Corpsec elites has 16 dice to automatics and 12 dodge. R6 Elite special forces has 18 to shoot and 14 to dodge.

Now keep in mind you will be outnumbered, taking wound penalties, taking running penalties, they have comparable or better armor, and they usually will be on the defensive, and they will possibly be using jazz. 12 is not enough to do anything but a dip-in-dip-out run against an 'eh' tier enemy and certianly nothing to expect out of your dedicated team combatant. Frankly I'd feel like the GM wasted my time with that combat if he threw 8 dice mooks at me.


>>54619364
Just made the characters in Chummer to check my math. Maybe my chummer files are wrong.
Sam with 5(7) AGI, 5 Automatics, Alphaware Wired Reflexes 3, and Muscle Replacement R2 = 534 karma remaining, 156 spent on nuyen, 70 on attributes, 10 on qualities, 30 on skills. 12 Automatics dice.
Adept with 6(8) AGI, 6 Magic, 6 Automatics, Improved Reflexes 3, Improved Physical Attribute AGI 2, and Improved (skill) Automatics = 538 karma remaining. 100 spent on primary/special attributes, 20 on positive qualities (Adept does not count against chargen pool) and 42 on skills. 16 automatics dice.

Adept is up 4 karma and the Sam has 0.0 essence remaining. This is pre specialization. Assuming my Chummer is right.

Now I must sleep. Apologies for taking up your nights, lads. Hopefully it's not too munchkiny of me to expect my primary combatant to be able to reliably hit and perform while wounded/in a pinch.

>>54619536
Correction. 15 automatics dice on adept. I don't think that defeats my point.

>>54619536

>R4 organized crime gang members have 10 dice in automatics and 8 to dodge, and they'll probably be using drugs

God damn 5e really inflated the foes.

>>54619536
>yes, like corpsec, it's not a boss, it's a high level enemy.
> R5 Corpsec elites has 16 dice to automatics and 12 dodge. R6 Elite special forces has 18 to shoot and 14 to dodge.
Those are bosses, anon. They're not "high-tier mooks", they're the best of the best. If you're tangling with them, either you've fucked up, or you're attacking an area they're guarding and should have the advantage due to your legwork before the run.

More typical mooks would be PR2 Corpsec or PR3 police officers.

>>54619632
>typical enemies have 6 or 7 dice
Find me a game running against mall cops foe more than 2k anon

>>54619601
They're the good ones - a step up from patrol cops, not the two bit fuckers waiting on the street corner. Those guys are Rating 1 bullet sponges.

>>54619632
>They're not "high-tier mooks"
They're literally high tier grunts, aka mooks, omae.

>>54619663

The average cop is likely 3-4 in his weapon skill and 3-4 in his agi. It's not really the primary skill for them (That would be perception) as 'Shooting people' is a part of the job a lot of cops don't have to do very often.

I'd go 4 Agi (As they have a lot more athletic requirements than shooting requirements), 3 Pistols (With a spec in whatever his sidearm he's used to) + Smartlink for the 'Average' cop.

But I think 'Bitching about Shadowrun NPC stats' has existed as long as Shadowrun NPC stats have.

>>54619667

Right. I'm still just used to 4e statlines.

>>54619692
Pretty much the same statline in 4e. p. 276 of the 4e corebook.

>>54619685
>'Shooting people' is a part of the job a lot of cops don't have to do very often.
Today. For shadowrun, you're conflating the fifth and sixth worlds. I'm not arguing they should be marksmen, but they have to be some seriously sheltered cops to not see firefights semi-regularly.

>>54620214
Agility 4 and Firearms 3 is still just 7 dice either way.

>>54620635
Yeah. add a spec (Service Sidearm) and a laser sight on the gun proper, and you have an "Average Security Joe" who's good enough to keep gangbangers and other lowlifes out of a place.

>>54620635
>I'm not arguing they should be marksmen
What's your point?

So since the last thread died shortly after asking.

What are some good spells i can buff my party with? Besides the good ol' Inrease reflexes ductape stripes (I'm also an decent alchemist)

Party consists of: Preperation/Combat mage (me), Face mage, Technomancer pirate and a Drone Rigger (need to test the new "Thorn" spell from FA on some flyspies)

>>54620746
>>54620635
In my opinion somebody who makes a living with his skills would have 7-9 (hovever he got that pool, be it gear, skill or attribute) dice in it and mostly just buy the two successes ,if he can, instead of rolling each time.

>>54620982
Improved Invisibility is a classic. Increase Attribute for that little extra oomph when facing a difficult task is nice. Physical barrier, while not strictly a buff, can be amazing in the right circumstances; same for Trid Phantasm.

>>54621029
The game disagrees with you. Normal cops/security - and I'm talking in Shadowrun, not just real life - don't even actually engage criminals unless forced to. They just call for HRT and employ delay tactics until they arrive.

>>54620982
>Buff
Deflection is amazing. It's an F-1 Physical spell that adds dice to your targets defense roll for every hit.

Increase Gear Limits can let your gunner characters use their crazy dice pools in a firefight by increasing accuracy on their guns.

>Assist
Clean [Air] is the bane of any smoke grenade and gas attack ever. At F -3 drain it's easy to cast and it cleans an area of Magic * 10 cubic meters in one go. Crazy effective given the right GM.

>>54621187
Can an ice wall stop suppressive fire?

>>54619173
Don't feel pressure to *have* an overarching plot. Shadowrun works better than most RPGs with self-contained missions that last 1 to 3 sessions (and 3 session missions are already very long missions).

Come up with jobs one by one and feed them, that's a shadowrunner's career. Once you have a plot in mind you can sprinkle plot related missions in with the standard jobs, until it comes to a head in one of those multi-session epic jobs.

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>>54619173
I'm of the opinion that the best over-arching plots in Shadowrun are the ones that are personal. Fuck being dragged into some external plot that doesn't have shit to do with you, like Dragonfall. Sure, it might still be rad, but it's missing the point.

Shadowrun's real drama comes from your bonds, your friendships, your family - and your rivals, your enemies, your agenda - being what gets you caught up in shit.

Your brother got wrapped up into a horrifying cult trying to reenact the Great Ghost Dance? Some motherfucker did you wrong and you're going to bring him down even if you have to burn down an entire AA to do it? Maybe you're in love, but the Yakuza (and MCT by extension) are standing in the way of you being with him.

These are the dramas that form the core, central experience of a campaign. A single scene here and there. A pro-bono mission done for a teammate. Focusing on missions that put you in orbit of your target, slowing chipping away at them and making money as you do it. Pushing your spare funds into advancing a needy cause.

That's the shit that drives a campaign forward. That's what forms a campaign's 'main plot.'

Now, maybe as you chase things deeper, there might be a lot crazier shit that you get into. Maybe your Yakuza Romeo & Juliet plot turns weird when it turns out the reason the Yaks are blocking shit is because your runner's boyfriend has been arranged to marry a youkai. Maybe it turns out that the ork aid program you've been donating to has been pumping the funding into a cure for Methuselah Syndrome - and they succeeded too well. Maybe your terrorist brother is just in deep cover, and you blew it by pulling him out of the cult, making them much more dangerous now that nobody knows what they're planning.

But that's the end point. The starting point is whatever character arc the players have baked into their PCs. And if your PCs don't have character arcs set up, they're bad characters.

>>54621888
Dragonfall starts with your old friend/ex-girlfriend accepting a job from a Johnson to unknowingly break into a mad scientist's lair and the situation progresses to the point said mad scientist decides to launch an assault on your home, making the conflict even more personal. How is it missing the point?

>>54621888
I really liked Returns approach since the financial incentive attached to it was pretty nice even if you had no attachment to the character dragging you into all of it.

>>54621984
See above. Had there been 2-3 missions with her before shit happened to her maybe the player would have cared. Introducing a character and going "Hey, you, player! You are deeply about this person!" doesn't really work.

>>54621327
Yes, since they have Armor and Structure ratings they apply for cover and blocking attacks and line of sight.

>>54621984
Because the only thing that was personal about Dragonfall was Monica dying. Everything that followed was deeply unrelated to you personally - something that you were chasing because you'd be fucked by mysterious forces beyond your control if you didn't. Hong Kong did a much better job of intimately tying the main plot of the story into who your character is and what their character arc is.

I'm not saying it was completely impersonal. I'm saying that where Dragonfall tried to hook you with a one-off gut punch and a hard left turn straight into the main plot, it's better to have your personal plot transition into turning out to have been a bigger plot all along.

Dragonfall turned out great in spite of that, but that style is a bad approach more often than it's a good one.

>>54619173
Overarching plots aren't going to be as obvious as they are in DnD, there should be clues sprinkled into runs, hit a couple Aztech subsidiaries and find a reference to supply deliveries to an unlisted site.

Make a passing statement about increased complaints of missing children in a C or D sec area. Cash in on the statement when your party gets the balls or a job to break in and all of the sudden they're saccing kids to power blood magic.

Suddenly Aztech's pissed about missing test subjects and research, Mexican mob's pissed about their community getting fucked with, hilarity or an all out war ensues

>>54622034
Does Suppressive Fire care about any of that once it has been set up, though? It tends to be quite "special" and frozen in time.

>>54622044
Yes it does. It's bullets. They go straight and don't just fill an area with lingering smoke.

>>54621327
An ice wall provides cover/a barrier. It'll provide the standard defensive bonuses/blocking effects.

>>54622075
Just saying because I'm pretty sure if you hit a guy who's currently considered to be spraying suppressive fire with electric damage for global -1 and some wound modifiers his suppression roll still doesn't get any lower, so it's frozen in time in the state he rolled it at regardless of circumstance it seems.

>>54622031
It never does that. The people around you are more effected by what happened to her because she's been with them for a long time. A lot of the dialogue options you get about what happened are far more withdrawn and professional. The emotional part of the conflict comes from your allies and neighborhood friends more than you. It's only when the conflict escalates to involve them does your character really feel like he's involved. The dialogue options you get when confronting Vaulclair range from professional to rubbing the fact that he got his brother killed in his face.

>>54622173
I don't see how trying to make me care about a character by making characters I also don't care about yet care for her works either.

>>54622125
I mean, do what you want at your table, but I consider your explanation retarded.

It's clear that the suppression roll doesn't get adjusted to avoid rerolling the dice every time the shooter gets hit, but that doesn't make his bullets magical.

Personally, I interpret "interrupted by any action" to include defense rolls, but that may be just me.

>>54622278
>Personally, I interpret "interrupted by any action" to include defense rolls, but that may be just me.
That would be nice. Knockdown is probably more sensible. Or maybe one of those shake-up called shots.

>>54621059
Well i do already have PB, since a free floating force field is pretty neat.
>Improved Invisibility
Seems to be more of a thing you put on the B&E guy and let him do his thing, don't really see the uses on my current grous since our only infiltrator is social.
>>54621187
>Deflection is amazing.
Already got it since it's just as amazing as you say; currently thinking about learning it as alchemy spell.

I would think that the mages (me and the other one) would profit quite a lot from improve [body] since we could sleep of our drain way faster. Or is there another spell that does that better ?

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What does /srg/ think of Snatcher?

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>>54622808
>Snatcher
What?

I really want to play a dude with Adept Spell. Are there any good ones to use? Was thinking heal, but that'd probably kill me.

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>>54622828
Snatcher. As a Cyberpunk setting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O7VTw1E3b4

>>54622931
Ah. I don't play video games, so I don't know. I thought it may be a movie I somehow missed.

>>54615679

>not putting an Agent in a souped up hackin' commlink and letting it exchange banter with the host while you're splating the security team.

>>54622808
It's Blade Runner by way of Kojima, so I think it's pretty cool. I know Kojima gets kind of a bad rapfor constructing nonsensical and over-dramatic plotlines,but if there's one thing about cyberpunk that Kojima gets absolutely perfect, it's portraying the world as a chaotic place where the differences between people, their ways of life and their modes of personal expression are beginning to lose coherence.

>>54615679
I've always ruled it that agents are only as smart as the person who wrote their scripts allows them to be. An agent in a black box will be able to open doors or crack individual computers, but it's not going to know what to do with an entire network unless the person who wrote the agent's scripts prepared for it in advance. Because retard PC is, as mentioned, a retard, they're obviously not going to know how to rewrite an agent's scripts on the fly to account for something outside of its programming.

>>54623292
That's a stupid ruling - there's already a rule for Agents and Pilot programs improvising. They roll (Pilot+Pilot) to see if they can adjust and adapt. A really good Agent is absolutely fantastic at adapting to that kind of shit. A really bad one is, yes, more like what you're describing.

That's half the fucking point of upgrading those scores.

I want to introduce some house rules to my table this wednesday, wondering what you guys think about them.

>Damage resist
Simple armor roll instead of body + armor

>Initiative
Weapons are now light (one-handed), medium (two handed) or heavy (Assault cannons and the like) and give a modifier on initative of 0/-2/-4 if you want to use them

>Free Actions
You get Agility free actions per phase

>Accuracy
Use the lower of physical or weapon accuracy

>>54623612
So what are you hoping to accomplish with tese rules?

>>54623612
All of them except the first are decent. Why do you want body to be useless? It's not like characters aren't squishy enough already.

>>54623661
Damage resist is to make combat more lethal and fast

Initiative is to promote the operator feeling

Free actions is cause at my table it's frustrating to constantly think about "can I combine a character running and dropping stuff as well as shouting a command" when we should be focussing on crisp combat.

Accuracy is because I want to introduce banged up weapons and such

>>54623612
>Simple armor roll instead of body + armor
What happens when armor is gone because of AP or item damage like cold?

>Weapons are now light (one-handed), medium (two handed) or heavy (Assault cannons and the like) and give a modifier on initative of 0/-2/-4 if you want to use them
And this happens when? For having them? For readying them? For firing them?

>>54623702
Makes no sense to me to be honest. Doesn't matter one bit how well built you are, how hueg your pecs are or how bulbous your beerbelly - A bullets a bullet, a knife's a knife and you only have seven layers of skin

>>54623737
Would make more sense to apply AP against body then than to just obsolete it.

>>54623612
>Agility free actions or phase
chummer, agility is already a god stat
why do you want it to be a bigger one than it already is?

>>54623774
To be fair his other sensible choice for that would be REA which everyone also already has because Initiative Armsrace.

Maybe INT I guess?

>>54623737
I dunno omae, I think an ork can take more hits than an elf, in the same armor.

>>54623735
>What happens when armor is gone because of AP or item damage like cold?
Unresisted damage

>And this happens when? For having them? For readying them? For firing them?
Performing activites while wielding them

>>54623761
>Would make more sense to apply AP against body then than to just obsolete it.
Sounds good, but obsolete? Body gives boxes.

>>54623774
>>54623785
Good points, and INT kinda makes sense. Switched, thanks.

>>54623802
Still does, Body base is 4 as opposed to 1 and racial max is increased by the same three.

>>54623802
Nah chummer, the racist corps add just a little bit of gold to every bullet to screw over the trogs.

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I was just washing my hands. How fucked am I?

>>54623873
Well, are you a runner, security, or random wageslave?

>>54623873
I looked at the cheatsheet/flowchart and it says you should use Matrix Perception.

>>54623873
Depends. Do you want to be fucked? You look kinda cute in a nerdy way.

Seriously though, what the fuck is that screen supposed to achieve when it doesn't spaghetti? I can't think of a reason to have it there.

>>54623844
Personally I think the impact of body compared to armor for soak is small enough to not be worth houseruling, especially since you're reducing soak by 3-6 across the board, and that'll have consequences.

>>54623844
Here is other thing about no body to resist
What happens when the damage is stun?
Bullets stop at the armor plates and the damage feels more like a punch
Why wont body be used there?
Hate all the rules you said but its your game so whatever

>>54623873
>IOT taps
IOT is literally a runner's wet dream.

>>54623612
>Use the lower of physical or weapon accuracy
I like it.

>You get Agility free actions per phase
I'm deeply neutral towards it.

>Weapons are now light (one-handed), medium (two handed) or heavy (Assault cannons and the like) and give a modifier on initative of 0/-2/-4 if you want to use them
The initiative penalty part is fucking stupid. It's much easier/quicker to line up a shot with a rifle than a pistol in real life, and you can squeeze off shots faster/more reliably as well.

If you want initiative modifiers, apply them to things like SA versus SS, but honestly I think it's just a clunky, bad idea for a rule.

Making a number of hands required to operate certain weapons, though, is a wonderful idea. I'd encourage you to have an 'insufficient hands' modifier for when someone inevitably wants to one-hand an assault rifle for suppressive fire while using his second hand to drag a downed teammate around, though.

>Simple armor roll instead of body + armor
Good job making Body the most worthless stat in the game. What a stupid fucking rule.

>>54623986
That's kinda my goal. A bullet is deadly, so is a knife. Always.

Body right now helps to

>Get boxes
>resist sickness
>resist toxins
>resist pain from pain inducer

And some more

>>54624015
>What happens when the damage is stun?
WHy should it be different? At best I'd allow Will to overcome it. Generally speaking, a tazer is even MORE effective against muscular people / people with little to no surface fat. So is blunt force trauma since there is no cushion to protect muscles and nerves.

>>54624063
Minor nitpicking, muscles are actually pretty good at absorbing blunt trauma. You have three layers of abdominal muscle for that reason.

>>54624118
Can they stop a bullet?

>>54624129
>Can they stop a bullet?
They can reduce the trauma of the bullet and aid in things like clotting, yes. Even someone with Body 10 isn't going to be tanking a bullet with Body alone.

Body can, does, and should have an impact in resisting damage. Not as big of a one as armor, mind you, but it's already not as big as armor anyway.

>>54624063
Won't all of your players just react by buying more armor?

>>54624160
If they want to CLUNK into their jobs, sure.

>>54624178
Better than DocWagoning out of them.

>>54624129
>>54624063
>>54623844
>>54623713
>>54623612
>>54624178
Chummer, don't ask for feedback and then argue with people about it. That shows you were just looking for people to agree with you, not critique.

That's fucking cunty.

>>54624159
>but it's already not as big as armor anyway.
It's the same as armor. Body + Armor is your dicepool to resist damage

>>54624159
Fair enough.

>>54624063
>get boxes
Irellevant since combat character have enough armor for the damage to be stun
>desiese
Once in a lifetime
> pain inducer
If you wanna throw this at people
> Why should it matter
Geez I wonder why getting hit in the guts would matter and why replacing it WILL would mages better in taking hits

>>54624201
Body is way smaller of a numerical contributor to Soak than Armor is, is what I'm saying. A super-fucking-healthy human with Body 5 gets almost 3/4 of their armor from their Armored Jacket +12 and Helmet +2, compared to their Body +5.

It's a very small contribution compared to Armor, but still one that deserves representation in the formula.

>>54624129
I said blunt trauma you dimp

>>54624240
>I said blunt trauma you dimp
And blunt trauma aside, an extra inch or two of muscle really does help spread out the force from a bullet, causing it to penetrate more shallowly and yield less total kinetic energy into your organs. So while you're not going to have a bullet deflect off of your rock-hard abs, the state of your bodily health can absolutely have a small impact on firearm lethality.

That said, being swole as fuck is Strength, not Body. Body is systemic health - the kind of thing that affects whether you clot/hemorrhage, whether you fight through the pain or go into shock, and whether your body's generally robust enough to resist some of the soft tissue and skeletal damage of the impacts.

>>54624192
I didn't argue, ya git. I answered follow up questions and agreed to a change. Learning comprehension ain't your strong suit, eh?

>>54624290
Replace Body in soak calculation with phys limit then?

>>54624302
If you think you weren't arguing, you're not just a cunt, you're a cunt with no social awareness.

>>54624192
>>54624302
Those ain`t even all my responses

>>54613554
I haven't played shadowrun in a few weeks. Is it still the worst system? I usually just adapt pathfinder rules. Makes it easier to play foxgirls anyways.

>>54624311
Same effect, more or less. Unless you dump the shit out of your other physical stats, your Physical Limit's mostly determined by Body already.

So you're basically adding an unnecessary extra calculation for very little actual change to the end result.

Just use body. It's already only useful 95% of the time for Soak and health boxes. If you reduce its impact there, it's going to turn into the new dump stat.

>>54624329
>Is it still the worst system? I usually just adapt pathfinder rules.
Can't be. You mentioned a worse system in the following sentence after all

>>54624355
>it's going to turn into the new dump stat.
Do you never use poison / rads / sickness / Exhaustion / falling damage at your table?

>>54624419
That's the other 5%.

I've tried getting into this. What's the first book I should get?

>>54624355
Phys limit would let STR do more.

>>54624459
SR 2e CRB

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>>54624322

>>54624434
Oh. I kinda use them very regularly at my table, which may be why people are so shocked about the idea.

But yeah, from the arguments I see that Body is far less powerful generally than I thought it was.

>>54623612
>Damage Resist
Makes it more lethal yes, hardly faster. I can understand it. I would still keep Body vs some damages.
>Initiative
If you want to speed up combat, you should probably not add even more calculations for the players to make while trying to figure out their initiative.
>Free Actions
Sorry but absolutely retarded. You as a GM should be able to say what they can and can't combine, but letting people speak more because they have a higher agility is a very desperate attempt to get some order in something that can be solved by logical thinking.

Don't play 5e much so I can't really say anything about accuracy.

>>54623960
It probably plays ads. It might even be able to play targeted ads if you've got a phone hooked up to local wifi.

>>54624558
>I would still keep Body vs some damages.
Sounds right. If I introduce it after thinking about what people said in this thread and taking into consideration that I seem to overuse toxins and exhaustion when compared to the average as it seems, I'd probably make this only apply to direct weapon damage and not elemental attacks.

>If you want to speed up combat, you should probably not add even more calculations for the players to make while trying to figure out their initiative.
Sounds fair, I kinda liked the idea of this guy
>>54624034
>If you want initiative modifiers, apply them to things like SA versus SS

>You as a GM should be able to say what they can and can't combine
Sadly this often leads to discussions. Any suggestions?

>>54623713
>Damage resist is to make combat more lethal and fast
If you want to make combat more lethal and fast, make Defense and Soak flat thresholds. You just assume that someone's Buying Hits with their Defense and Soak. So, 1/4 their relevent pools, rounded down. Someone has a Defense score of 12 and a Soak of 20? That becomes a Defense Threshold of 3 and a Soak Threshold of 5.

AP gets a similar treatment in that arrangement. Every -4 AP you have, you ignore 1 point of Soak Threshold. Your weapon gives you -3 AP? Tough shit, it's worthless now, chummer. You loaded a sniper rifle with APDS for -8 AP? Ignore reducing their Soak Threshold by an entire 2 points - that's a big deal.

You could still call for actual Defense/Soak rolls in high-drama, intense moments, especially to allow people to spend Edge for rerolls. But it'll help speed most fights up considerably by doing that.

If you want to be less punishing, instead of assuming that they're buying hits (4:1) you can assume they get average hits (3:1). Then someone with 12 Defense has Threshold 4 instead of Threshold 3, and someone with 24 Soak has Threshold 8 instead of Threshold 6.

4:1 favors attackers - it makes the game deadlier, and more offense-oriented. 3:1 favors defenders - it makes the game more tactical and defensive.

>>54624419
>rads
when do you ever come in contact with highly radioactive material? Most runs do not take place in the SOX
>poison/sickness
usually pretty rare since shooting someone is faster, easier and safer. That said: Just like with soak you can get FAR bigger dpb with augments.
>falling damage
since climbing stuff is pretty easy and most runs take place indoors this doesn't come up often
>exhaustion
I'll give that to you, but usually they are not forced to exert themselves or do so in short bursts

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>>54624192
Your parents must have had a really strict measurement of what counts as fighting or arguing.

>>54624558
I responded to the guy here and I'd want to hear his on take on my response. Maybe there are some things I'm missing, or we're seeing it from different perspective? Maybe there are things that weren't clear how he was thinking in his first post? Telling someone to take their feedback and fuck off doesn't really give much room for thought on his ideas as if he gets ACTUAL feedback with some back and forth.

>>54624655
Shouldn't it be -1 soak threshold for every (partial) instance of 4 AP your weapon has? So 1, 2, 3 and 4 AP all reduce by 1, and 5+ by 2, etc.

>>54624722
Depends on how you want to round it. -1 AP reducing an entire threshold/success of Soak is a super powerful effect, though.

>>54624658
>Most runs do not take place in the SOX
We're playing in the SOX, my group was locked in
>>54624658
>usually pretty rare since shooting someone is faster
Seems like it. I play a lot with environmental hazards and gas grenade traps. Next mission I have multiple ammonia + Bleach traps cobbled together by squatters.
>most runs take place indoors
True for my group too
>but usually they are not forced to exert themselves
Reading this I realize I should've given a lot more information about my group in m y first post. I rarely let them have a full nights rest unless they make it back to home base.

>tfw you really want to get into a Tabletop game but don't have any friends

I hate and love people who put up fantastic stories about their sessions. What would you recommend reading for a guy who just wants to know more about the world or read a good story?

>>54624750
>I rarely let them have a full nights rest
>We're playing in the SOX
>ammonia + Bleach traps cobbled together by squatters
You're not playing a normal game, full stop.

>>54623737
Your body is resisting the blunt trauma that comes with your armor taking any sort of hit, dumbass.

>>54624623
>Sadly this often leads to discussions. Any suggestions?
Well discussion is healthy, arguing is not. If it leads to the later it's a problem.
My group does respect my final say as the GM, but that won't stop them from begging a bit. Then it's up to you to say yay or nay and have them accept it.
But if you want more structure I'd say try a more experimential approach.

For example, give everyone 4 free action points, but divide the free actions into points of 1-3 depending on how much you think it takes.
For example multitasking while running might be difficult so lets put it at a 3, while talking and gesturing might be a 2. Ejecting a smartgun clip with your thoughts or dropping something from your hand is in no way more than a 1.

Really just an on the spot idea here, nothing I've tried before.

>>54624754
All Guardsmen Party
Or anything writen by Shoggy
Love this guy

>>54624754
2D storytime in the OP pastebin

>>54624655
Thanks for that, it makes a lot of sense and should help alleviate my issue with intense moments being interrupted by massive dice rolls.

>>54624775
SInce there's an official book on the SOX I kinda assumed I was.


>>54624799
That's why the rules say that damage under armor value is transformed into stun? Thanks for the insult though.

>>54624872
>SInce there's an official book on the SOX I kinda assumed I was.
Chummer, just because a place has a setting book, doesn't mean it is a normal place for a game.

>>54624918
As I said, my bad. Next time I'll do my best to include that. Tension is rising high due to my post that was meant to be a simple feedback question, so I'll just lurk now.

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>>54624872
>SInce there's an official book on the SOX I kinda assumed I was.
I understand your assumption. Often times, our assumptions are correct. That's why we make them - they tend to have good track records.

You did not make the correct assumption.

Mind you, I think your game sounds fun as hell. But it's not a normal game.

>>54624775
There is no "normal" game.

>>54624956
>There is no "normal" game.
What a stupid fucking thing to say. There absolutely is such a thing as a normal game of shadowrun. Deviating from normal doesn't make it badwrong - all of the best games I've played have deviated from normal.

But it does make it abnormal. Atypical. Something where standard advice no longer applies, and special, unusual considerations need to be made.

>>54624941
>simple comment open the floodgates of arguing
Welcome to /srg/ chummer

>>54624941
Generally when you want to make some house rules it is a wise idea to mention where your game is set
house rules for a game in Lagos differ from those for a game in Manhattan which differ from those for a game in the Rhein-Ruhr-Megaplex
and they are usually not interchangeable without being ill suited to the place

>>54624956
Yes there is. An assorted group of lowlife mercenaries in a big metropolis get together to take on assorted jobs from a series of men who claim to be named Mr. Johnson or a foreign equivalent. Most of their jobs constitute deniable raids and aggressive investigations, often against large corporations or organized crime cells.

>>54624872
Yeah, damage beyond your BOD+Armor SOAK that is less than your armor is transferred into stun.

Because your bod didn't resist the blunt trauma.

Christ you're doubling down on the stupid now.

>>54625014
Oh, and just as a clarification
with location I mean both the place and the playstyle
A game in lagos is most likely going to be more about survival/wacky shenanigans
A game in Manhattan is more about stealth and deniability. Leaving no traces.
A game in the RRP (or seattle or tokyo) is going to be most likely about carving a niche for yourself and increase your reputation, taking on bigger and bigger jobs until you retire.
house rules for a stealth game won't do shit for your survival game

>>54625021
Believe me, no one ever plays "the normal game".

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Has anyone ever tried to run a full techno game using actual ctf sites?

>>54625110
I have. That description matches more than one SR game I've played. Not all of them, but definitely the better half of most.

>>54625154
Was it the same GM? If not, how consistent were the rules between them? I find that with the mess CGL made seperate games barely even play by the same ruleset anymore.

>>54625196
Not him, but probably 75% of the Shadowrun games I've played have been the normal game, set in Seattle, and using whatever the current edition has been at the time without any houserules.

>>54625196
I was the GM for one and did most things by the book (except NPCs, they didn't have stats per se. Just dicepools that varied based on competency.) After that, one of the people in my group took a shot at it, and since I was still in the group and they had learned the system through me, it was much the same (although I think he put more effort in for npc mechanics).
Before that, it was a 3rd edition game that was run consistently. Dunno if it was run by the books, but it was consistent.

>>54625346
What about the parts you can't do by the book because the book literally fails to supply a functioning version?

>>54625372
Like what, running the game for you? That description of a "normal" game held true for all three of those campaigns.

>>54625485
No I mean shit where CGL fucked the rules so bad you can't actually play RAW.

>>54625502
Never came up in the 4e games. Might have come up in the 3e, but I wasn't tuned into the mechanics back them.

>>54613718
>>54613757

Hypothetically would there be another highly specific topic in the game you would want to see get similar treatment?

>>54625676
Adept Powers or 'Ware.

>>54625676
I might just be retarded, but the way the advanced demolitions section of Run & Gun is structured is confusing as hell to me. So "the Retard's Guide to Blowing Things Up (Other Than Themselves)" would be handy to me.

>>54625718
'Ware is too broad. Its important to remember that the guide on martial arts is literally longer than the chapter of martial arts. I haven't been able to write anything on par with it because it was the perfect storm of confusing, small scope, but also a lot of depth that could be unpacked.

But I get asked about 'ware a lot. Was there a specific problem with 'ware people were having? Because no one can really articulate the issues they have with it that would necessitate a guide besides maybe a really crude list of "this is the 'ware that is good."

You know, for Shadowrun 6e I would like melee and dual wielding to not be shit.
That'd be cool.

>>54625799
Apply the following houserule:

Intercept now costs 0 initaitive, and can be done any time anyone preforms a simple or complex action other than casting a touch spell, making a melee attack, or shooting a pistol with close quarters firearms, in addition to moving away.

Also change intercept to allow a character to use their movement off turn solely to follow someone leaving the space near them, unless they do something like make a gymnastics test to jump over an obstacle or moving within an ally's reach.

Suddenly melee isn't any more lethal, so a street samurai still isn't scared of a thug with a knife, but a lethal melee combatant now is a lot more scary to be close to, because choosing to power through with firearms means they get to double the amount of attacks they get at no personal cost. It makes being in melee with a non-melee weapon actually scary, rather than the obviously correct choice, and better represents the reality of melee combat, by making the strategy of "ignore and tank the melee attacker despite the fact I am not wearing armor and am a regular body 3 human" non-viable.

>>54625755
Chosing and efficiency. Optimization. For example, there are 18 different ways to increase armor with ware. What is the best? What are trap options and what are god tier? etc.

>>54625799
>>54625904

Oh, and depending on weapon dual wielding either allows you to dip between ammo specific called shots which are amazingly good (pistols), double the recoil compensation for your guns (Automatics), throw even more grenades (throwing), or gain the benefit of two weapon attack for bonus accuracy and DV (melee).

All of these bonuses are non-trivial. For example two weapon attack makes it so that on an extreme specialist the Rapier is a stronger option than a katana due to it having the same DV and 1 more accuracy, and if you were to dual wield monoswords you would have an acc 6 DV 4 attack which is subjectively better for lower skilled combatants.

>>54626014
>Rapier is a stronger option than a katana due to it having the same DV
The Rapier has 1 lower DV and the same accuracy. There aren't any Blades with higher accuracy than a Katana.

>>54625935

For armor the best options are:

Orthoskin, bone lacing, and muscle toner.

Dermal plating, bone density augmentation, and (at least for the purposes of getting more soak) muscle replacement are traps, and are neither essence nor nuyen efficient ways to get better soak.

Platelet factories are supremely efficient if your not completely soaking every attack, at 3 effective soak for physical damage for only .2 essence. However you often will take stun if your really soaky. So its a subjective boon.

Cyberlimb armor is neither nuyen nor essence efficient, and going to the max with it removes your ability to get good initiative, but is the most soak cyberware can get you, so if your ONLY concern is soak its a good pick.

Most of the orthoskin upgrades are trash.

Smartskin is pretty bad at .5 essence per soak, even if you want subtle soak orthoskin is better at .25 per soak. However the rating 1 smartskin, and only the rating 1, is efficient in the very specific case you only ever want 1 soak from your skin 'ware AND are planning to take a cyberweapon or bioweapon AND you don't mind a sub-par bio or cyberweapon AND you care about reflective unarmed damage AND a few more ands. Its technically not a trap, but its hard to imagine a PC where all this lines up perfectly, so its best to think of it as a trap option even though it does *technically* offer stuff nothing else does.

>>54626110
I thought I was pretty explicit in pointing out this was if you dual wielded the rapiers.

With the two weapon attack martial art your dual wielded rapiers becomes objectively superior to one katana.

>>54626177
See? That wasn't too hard, was it?

>>54626203
No but if I were to write it like the martial arts guide I would need to survey every single piece of 'ware and compare them on nuyen, essence, and what extra value they offer, as well as evaluate what kind of PCs want them and if they change in value based on rating (used wired 1 is really good for getting initiative on a non-sam like a face who has essence to burn for example, allowing you to retain the most value of the 'ware for resale value and minimizing lost nuyen to the eventual upgrade while getting initiative NOW, while alpha wired may as well not exist at any rating).

There are a shit ton of more moving parts and unlike martial arts where there would be a clear way to make the essay flow any such thing about cyberware would be an ugly Game FAQs guide with unconnected sections that are really blunt and don't grant a lot of greater context for the choices you make.

>>54624737
I mean, the original numbers are still there. You can just apply AP before buying hits with soak.

>>54626662
Re-calculating a static score in the middle of a fight completely defeats the purpose of making it fast.

>>54626683
If you do it that way you still get to remove the roll itself, which is the most time consuming part

>>54626699
>which is the most time consuming part
Disagreed. Calculations and factoring of bonuses/penalties is always more time-consuming than the roll itself - even if the roll itself does take up some time.

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Probably irrelevant to most, but I decided to do some calculations to find out what the best pistol is purely stat wise.

"leistung" stands for best average power, "Preis" stands for best average Price.

>>54626829
>der name
ich hab gelacht
gute arbeit, chummer

>>54626906
Ich habe kurz über Stiftung Warentrog nachgedacht, aber das wäre wohl zuviel gewesen

>>54626829
wie hast du denn die leistung ausgerechnet?

>>54627328
Differenz vom Mittelwerk der Kategorie, im Falle von Rüstungsdurchdringung natürlich umgekehrt, zusammenaddiert und 10 draufgehauen um negative Werte zu verhindern.

>>54626906
>>54626961
>>54627328
>>54627467
No hablo, senor

>>54626906
>>54626961
>>54627328
>>54627467
BOMBER HARRIS DO IT AGAIN

>>54627658
This thread is now officially german clay. Blitzkriek out of nowhere!

>>54627658
>>54627748
Alter, wir machen für euch die besseren regeln und hier kostenlos analysen wie gut die waffen sind
dafür könntet ihr doch zumindest unsere sprache lernen, oder?

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>finish touring Fizzy Fountian's soda factory with three NPC's that died and one critically injured PC after she drank spirit extract soda (an awakening of flavor with every mouthful, was the tagline)
>Groomph Oompah's talked shit about every player and NPC that were there
>while there, our brains were scanned and decoded to discover the perfect ad to sell soda to us on an individual basis and using technology and magic, were able to produce these onto trideo form
>Fizzy's profits increase to dizzying heights with no nuyen sent our way even though the commercials came from our brains while we toured the soda factory
>at least it's over
>or not
>find message on comlink
>Fizzy has invited us to be his guests of honor at the Commercial Oscars since two of our PC's thought-ads were nominated
>they're super excited and hope one of 'em wins the convented "Commie" award
>mfw

Just prime runner things. One day you're punching submarines and thwarting Ordo's Maximus plots, the next you're surviving Not-Willy Wonka's and attending ceramonies

>>54627751
>>54627758
Don't make us come back over there you little shits.

>>54627796
nigga, you already prefer our rules over yours
you are already dependent on us
don't pretend otherwise

>>54627751
>>54627758
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_QY3xsLQNI

>>54627783
Please tell me there was a Trixian bubble juice reference in there

>>54627748
>BOMBER HARRIS DO IT AGAIN
what, send hundreds of thousands of british pilots to their avoidable death?

>>54627864
THE ARYAN MUST KNOW THEIR PLACE AS THE FOOTSTOOL OF THE GLORIOUS ANGLO
Can't spell Germany without germ, time to clean up Europe

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>>54627758
>>54627829
Dies ist für Pearl Harbor!

Thanks for the calculations.

>>54627902
>THE ARYAN MUST KNOW THEIR PLACE AS THE FOOTSTOOL OF THE GLORIOUS ANGLO
Oh how sad the Anglo is. Even though he denies it, his own name betrays his german ancestry. He oh so vehemently denies that until a few generations ago his royalty spoke german, thought german, was german

>>54627902
>time to clean up Europe
So we beating up the slavs yeah?

>>54628040
of course

>>54627902
Your queen is german. Just sayin'

On that note - Never gave much of a fuck about Europe apart from Germany and France. How's our favorite Royal family doing these days?

>>54628491
Before anyone misunderstands this - I obviously mean in the sixth.

>>54628515
I don't think there's a lot of official stuff about anything in Europe that isn't pretty fucking kraut. I personally like the idea that they function more or less like they do now, except being walking commercial boards.

>>54628491
>>54628515
https://shadowhelix.de/England#Politik

>>54628022
The Anglo has chosen to evolve.

The Aryan has chosen complacence.

>>54628611
>Coronation Ceremony
>Sponsored by Watermelon Warhead
>Half-time show by Horizon Doble
>AR-Crown displaying "Neonet" in glowing letters

I can live with that

>>54626014
>double recoil compensation
Que? Recoil is cumulative across weapons, regardless of whether you have a gun in either hand.

>>54628695
The Anglo has chosen to evolve, but remember that evolution can reduce complexity as well.

The Aryan didn't need to evolve

>>54628747
Your Merkel demonstrates otherwise.

>>54628695
>>54628747
Come on guys, let's unite in hating the french. How does that sound?

>>54628783
Terrible. It means we have to remember the French exist and think about them.

Ugh.

>>54628733
You gain the recoil compensation of both guns, and only need to be firing one gun at a time to do so.

The rules are very explicit in fact that you only need to be ready to fire both guns to add both's RC to your total RC pool. Recoil AND recoil compensation are traits of a character, not a firearm.

So for automatics, the point of dual wielding is NOT to split attacks, which is relatively weak, but to get a high RC gun to supplement your other gun, likely a silenced one as silenced firearms tend to have poor RC.

>>54628783
Aren't we all united in our love for the hobby?

t. Half-french, half-german

>>54628491
They have named the current monarch, who recently took back her power after a shadowcoup by the Druids.

I refuse to recognize her, and insist that the Commonwealth is still ruled by Elizabeth II, the first sitting monarch to get cyberware, bioware, and gene therapy.

mostly for the tin lizzie jokes

and because it cheers me to no end to imagine Phillip vainly trying to keep up, hoping that one day she'll actually die

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>>54628890
I am so stealing this

>>54628882
Go back to Lorraine and drown in toxins, lederfrog.

>>54628920
Philly keeps trying to get shadowrunners to do her in

jokes on him, she's behind 17 biomodded corgis

>>54628922
Grew up near Brocéliande, it's beautiful and you should check it out.

>>54628947
>Corgi biodrone army
>Tower of London Ravens with laser eyes
>Chimera Swans are property of the crown

>>54628816
>You gain the recoil compensation of both guns, and only need to be firing one gun at a time to do so.
Dual wielding implies firing both weapons, there's no case where carrying two guns and firing one gives you the second gun's RC on the first, because you aren't dual wielding in that situation. You're firing normally with something in your offhand.

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>>54614355
Aside from the stupid human lifespan and black forest nation qualities I actually like this book.

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>>54628997
Yeah that is a neat opinion and all but the rules not only state you only need to have the weapon ready but give an explanation text making it clear that you are not expected to necessarily be firing the gun, just capable of doing so. So there is a clear benefit to dual wielding, even if its silly.

>>54625543
It's only really a problem with 5e and things introduced in late 4e. FanPro, FASA, and early CGL were actually competent.

>>54628947
You beautiful bastard, this is now my canon.

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Is there an official map of the Wolkenstadt in Hamburg? It's been showing up in Datapuls in June (I think) and I want to have a run in it before it becomes Horizons new enclave.

>>54617021
>The Ork will lie, the Ork will make excuses. He will use words he don't really know the meaning of. If he gets desperate, he may even start to dance, or rap.

>>54629118
That passage is clearly meant to exclude un-fireable guns, not include any gun you happen to have in your hand and choose not to fire, you fucking muppet.

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>>54614672
Missing: Difference between Impact and ballistic armor
Liking: Limits

>>54628952
>grew up near fictional forest

Fuck off, you pixie poser. You grew up in Brittany with the rest of the fags whose ancestors were too busy sucking mud to go join William in moving to a worthwhile country.

>>54629499
So then riddle me this.

Why would it need to exclude unfireable guns if you MUST fire the gun to get RC? That doesn't make any sense, and is a glaring hole in the idea that the guns must be fired. Wouldn't it be easier to state "You get the RC of any guns you fire?" Why would they need to include a provision that unloaded guns don't count?

Of course unloaded guns wouldn't count if you had to fire them. But if the point is that the gun needs to be in hand and ready to fire, suddenly the additional context for what ready to fire mean makes sense and is coherent. Its very basic reading comprehension: Use surrounding information (the fact that the author at no point assumed you needed to fire the gun and included provisions that prevented you from getting the RC bonus that only make sense in the context that you don't have to fire the gun) to glean authorial intent (The author intends for the bonus to occur even if you don't shoot the gun, as long as you CAN shoot the gun).

The passage is explicit in the requirements: You must have the gun ready to fire, which means in hand and loaded. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no invisible text that only you can read that says "In your hand, ready to fire, while you shoot it."

>>54629564
I just thought that it would more likely ring with people in this thread if I mentioned Brocéliande instead of a region only old people and families with small kids ever visit. No need to be antagonistic about it.

It's still nice though, and Paimpont is legitimately a beautiful forest.

>>54629580
Oh. And it gets better. This is part of the core recoil rules, before the concept of splitting attacks is even explained. So in addition to making no mention of having to fire the guns and using very specific language to indicate you don't need to fire the guns, it also doesn't refer you to a context where your personal definition of dual wielding would make sense.

So:

1: It goes out of its way to note the requirements in the specific terminology of "Ready to fire" and not "Firing" which would literally have been easier to write and understand.

2: It uses an example that makes it clear what ready to fire means using exceptions that would inherently clear if you had to fire the gun but would be unclear if the idea was the gun had to merely be 'ready to fire.'

3: It doesn't reference the multi-attack rules at all, which is the only legal way to fire multiple firearms in one action.

4: Because recoil builds up over time, it would be incoherent for your recoil to suddenly go UP if you stop firing one gun, so even though it makes little thematic sense, it makes good mechanical sense.

All in all, it is pretty damn clear that you don't need to be firing the gun, just ready to fire it. Because, again, that is the literal words they use. It must be *ready* to fire.

>>54629580
Not the guy you're replying to, but are you the same dude that argued that suppressive fire should circumvent elemental walls being put up earlier?

>>54629653
>Because, again, that is the literal words they use
Yes anon, that is RAW
And you may have noticed that with CGL RAW is often times extremely retarded

>>54629580
>Wouldn't it be easier to state "You get the RC of any guns you fire?"
It would, but hey, no one's ever accused CGL of stellar editing before and I doubt they're gonna start now.

>>54626177
>For armor the best options are:
>Orthoskin, bone lacing, and muscle toner.

>muscle toner
>soak

>Cyberlimb armor is neither nuyen nor essence efficient, and going to the max with it removes your ability to get good initiative


>cyberlimb armor
>inefficient
>impeding INI

Excuse me, but what the fuck are you blabbering about?
You aren't getting Cyberlimbs solemly for the Armor (and even then, you could go with Alphaware feet and Hands for cheese), so you can't equate the 2 Points of armor per limb with the full essence cost of a limb.

>>54629675

Nope.

>>54629718

Ok. But the RAW also has a clearly good outcome in allowing you to selectively fire weapons.

Otherwise you get the nonsensical situation where firing fewer bullets INCREASES your recoil.

While thematically it doesn't make a lot of sense for you to get the RC, if you put in practice the "Sensical" way to handle RC where you must fire the gun you either completely break the mechanics of recoil, or need to make significant houserules to make recoil per firearm rather than per-person.

>>54629824
Yes but usually its bad editing is because they under explain, not over-explain. The example text of what qualifies a gun as not ready to fire indicates extremely heavily the RAI, and in fact if you examine the actual end result of doing it any other way the results get really weird.

You could for example fire a RC 6 machine pistol with 6 shots, and a RC 1 machine pistol for 1 shot on a split attack, have 0 recoil, and then if you on your next pass decided to stop shooting the RC 6 machine pistol and suddenly despite not using the gun that is containing the most recoil, rocket up to a -6 penalty to attack based on the recoil being applied to a weapon your not firing anymore.

>>54626829
Ganz gut, aber Feuerstoßoptionen sind zu Modifikationsstark als dass du sie hättest ignorieren können.

(gespeichert)

>>54629893
He's saying that if you go cyberlimbs for the sole purpose of building soak, you're retarded.

>>54629957
Joa, ich arbeite noch weiter an der Tabelle. Ziel ist es herauszufinden was eine selbstgemachte Waffe gut, aber nicht übermächtig macht um ein bisschen mehr Variation in mein Spiel einzubauen.

>>54629893

Str adds to soak because it allows you to wear more layered armor. It is why tross have such a huge advantage in soak tanking. It isn't just their body, that is only a 1 point lead on a dwarf or ork. Their 2 point strength lead also helps quite a bit.

Of course, this is moot after a certain point, but because str also plays heavily into physical limit, which is very important both for staying standing after being hit and thus indirectly increasing the amount of gel you can wear, strength is arguably a better soak stat than body, though of course body has other benefical effects for a tank such as letting you recover from injury more quickly, resisting poisons and disease (with a lot of help from gear), and increasing your lethal damage track (which is arguably less important than stun on a tank but its still good).

As for cyberlimbs, they aren't nuyen or essence efficient per-soak point, and while they have the ability to help your stats they aren't too efficient compared to general stat enhancements either in that regard. However I didn't say limbs were bad, I was just saying purely in the context of soak you only would take them to cap out soak as high as possible.

Partial cyberlimbs have interesting interactions with armor, and are essence efficient, but not cost efficient, because you will need to get enhancements to push them up to a good statline and you will be paying for stats twice. There is also the fact that on a samurai they can't match your superhuman stats due to the limits of capacity, so they are only really an option for someone like a combat face who wants more soak and doesn't have agility above their racial maximum nor cares to get it. So they effectively lower your augmentation cap as well, which is a massive cost on a combat PC.

>>54629960
Sorta. Its more complicated than that. One of the primary benefits of a limb is their soak. He is sorta correct in stating you shouldn't get a limb for any one thing.

>>54630081
>>54629893
And I just saw the part you took issue with. Muscle augmentation, not muscle toner. Good catch.

>>54629561
>Missing: Difference between Impact and ballistic armor
I'm really glad 5e simplified them. Having Ballistic and Impact be two separate things was turbo-retarded.

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>>54629264
Seems like there's nothing, so I made my own.

Pls no bully

>>54629960
>He's saying that if you go cyberlimbs for the sole purpose of building soak, you're retarded.

Then thats about as relevant of a comment as prefacing your "supersecrettech" with "you should always Keep your gun loaded".

Jokes actually double on him, because what you called "retarded" is actually a highly viable move if you want to MAX your armor.
4 Cyberlimbs + Orthoskin + Bonelacing (without any qualities to modify availability at Chargen) leaves you with an impressive 16 Soak before you even start adding your natural bodystat and Armor.
Body 5 on top and the usual sleeping tiger + mask + forearm guards gives you a cozy 37 (or 36 if you go for the more sensible Orthoskin 3 instead of used 4) Soak without even resorting to shitty options like partial cyberskulls or grabbing heavier armor

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>>54630177
>usual
>sleeping tiger
>forearm guards adding to non-melee armour

>>54630177
>36 or 37 Soak
>Average of 12
Boy oh boy, that's tanking sniper rifle hits

Is there anything in RAW about body zones except for the overcomplicated maneuvers?

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>>54629982
>Ziel ist es herauszufinden was eine selbstgemachte Waffe gut, aber nicht übermächtig macht um ein bisschen mehr Variation in mein Spiel einzubauen.

Nischenschutz und kein "strictly better".
Die Wumme darf halt nicht überall objektiv besser sein als die vergleichsmodelle.
Beispiel Savalette vs Predator:
Erstere bekommt den Salvenmodus, letztere hat die größere Magazinkapazität. Spieltechnisch ist der Salvenmodus zwar deutlich besser, aber das Beispiel soll erstmal nur den grundsätzlichen Mechanismus erklären.
Du könntest dir einen Baukasten zurechtlegen.
Jede Eigenschaft einer Waffe (jeder Punkt Schaden, jeder Punkt Panzerungsdurchdringung, jedes Extra wie Smartlinks) kostet eine bestimmte Menge an Ressourcen. Dann machst du Ressourcenpool und aus dem konstruierst du dann die unterschiedlichen Waffen. Die einzige Schwierigkeit ist es "nur", die einzelnen Eigenschaften gegenüber den anderen passend zu bepreisen. 1 Punkt Panzerungsdurchdrinung ist nunmal viel weniger Wert als 1 Punkt Schaden.

>>54630177
If your main goal is stupid-armor, here's what you do:

>2 Used cyberhands, 2 Used cyberfeet, 1.25 Essence, 15,000 nuyen
>4 sets of Used cyberlimb armor, Rating 3, (Availability 11, 27,000 nuyen)

You now have 12 armor while naked at the cost of only 1.25 Essence and 42k nuyen. All of your hands and feet still have 1 Capacity left for odds and ends, and if you're feeling retarded you can Customize them to have dumb grip strength or fine-motor lockpicking skills.

Mind you, no GM would ever be fucking stupid enough to allow this.

>>54630264
>Die einzige Schwierigkeit ist es "nur", die einzelnen Eigenschaften gegenüber den anderen passend zu bepreisen.
Jup, das ist der Grund warum ich die Tabelle angefangen habe - um zu sehen wie ich möglichst nah an die Bücherteile rankomme.

>>54630177
I mean I am not the guy who called you retarded. I agree its good for hard maxing armor, you literally are as soaky as you can get if you go full limb build.

Full limb build just involves a lot of sacrifices. Its why I didn't include it on the "Good vs not good" list of the basic, no nonsense, "I just want a way to increase my armor" list, because most people who are looking for a basic 'ware rundown aren't going to be in the market for an FBR character, that is shit you go into knowing the ramifications of.

You can do it, and it will get you more soak than pretty much anything else in the game, but it will make your PC substantially different than they were, generally with their overall dicepools being 1-2 lower due to your lack of support 'ware, which often doesn't fit in capacity, as well as generally lower initiative due to you either having to go for a low rating initiative booster or you going for drugs.

Its why I am uneasy about writing a 'ware guide. Because there are so many moving parts and it isn't as easy as saying "This is good, this is bad, this is a good replacement for str" like it was for martial arts.

>>54630269
The main downside to this is you got a lot of essence left and stuff like muscle toner and augmentation now are effectively limited to at most being rating 2, because even with limb averaging your str and agility can only go up to racial natural max+1 on your hand.

Try partial limbs instead. Its a bit more essence, but not a lot more, and it completely sideskirts the lowered effective augmented maximum because you now have enough capacity to get your limb's agility to 3 and when averaged with R4 muscle toner it will round up to +4.

>>54630360
>because even with limb averaging
You only average Full Limbs, never partials or hands/feet, chummer. They're not included in thsoe calculations.

Did you not know that?

>The attributes of partial limbs (including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand).

No matter how high/low your hand strength is, it has absolutely no effect - positive or negative - on your averages.

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>>54630222
it was an example requiring the least amount of written Units.
It this triggers you to much, little assburger-kun, Switch the tiger and forearm guards for a R12 run-of-the-mill armor jacket and PPS on Arms and legs, saving you a tons of neonazishekels and netting you the exact same armor count.

>>54630233
Its not even that horribru.
A sorta-smart GM will see your 15 physical boxes, remember stick and shock and will be happy.
Until he sees that you are wearing Ares Wild Hunt with stock insulation and spend the 0,1 essence on the orthoskin upgrade against shock damage so that you are derping around with 44 soak against electricity based damage and maybe the same against fire, if you invested a few thousand nuyens.

The proper fun starts when you also spot cyber singularity seeker for an additional two willpower (aka one additional box of stun) and Pop yourself a pain Editor.

APDS Bulls-eye tripplebursts from a Crocket can still put a bit of a dent in this Little guy, but at least you have an alright chance of surviving a direct hit with an anti-vehicle Missile.

>>54630389
No but it has an effect on your usage of those limbs. So if you go for a cyberhand you end up with a lower agility when using that hand.

A partial arm or leg skirts the problem entirely, for only .2 essence more per-limb you can sit at augmented racial max for agility with a few capacity left over on top. Its only .15 essence per armor doing this which is still a really good deal, without sacrificing any usage of your attributes (Like... say your hand's agility for shooting) and sometimes even increasing them depending on build.

I only mentioned averaging because many people houserule that if your using something like an arm you average stats of partial limbs in that arm, just like you average your full limbs to your general stats. If your not using that houserule it obviously becomes more important to get your partial cyberlimbs fully up to snuff.

>>54630416
>but at least you have an alright chance of surviving a direct hit with an anti-vehicle Missile.
Theorycrafting aside (Thank you by the way) I'd love to see the psychological profile of a person that decided to go down this route. Someone surely hurt him... bad.

>>54630360
Biocompatibility "Cyberware" allows you to comfortably fit 4 Cyberlimbs (2 normal, to Alphagrade), Aluminium Bonelacing (normal) and Synaptic Boosters 2 into yourself while still having space for Double Elastin, a Datajack and about 0,4something of essence.

So, actually, its manageable.
Even easier if you don't try to hardmax, just /reasonable/ optimize (Alphaware plastic bonelacing is extremly efficient) instead of hardmaxing.

>>54630477
It's not a problem at all. You only use them in extremely narrow circumstances:
>their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand)

If you want super-duper grip strength or incredible lockpicking Agility, sure, that's great.

But they don't get factored in when it comes to shooting, sneaking, nor anything else that involves anything other than specifically and exclusively that hand/foot.

Getting partials almost doubles the Essence cost, literally doubles the nuyen cost, and then you're talking about adding Customizations and Enhancements on top of that?

That's worthless. You're pissing money down a hole. Stop saying retarded things.

>>54630484
Eh, happy to help.
I actually played a toned-down Version of this at the table, but i kept him at 30 Soak with the option to go to 36 with upgrading the cyberlimb armor only.

>>54630529
Where are you seeing "exclusively" in the rules?

>>54630486
.4 something of essence isn't a lot left for skill utility 'ware. And its important to note you can't actually afford that at gen, a But, again, there are a lot of moving parts still.

For example you probably can't fit in both a synthacardium and your implanted smartlink, which are two very powerful 'ware choices most samurai take for granted.

But then you also can do limb optimization which not only is a skill increase but a limit increase as well, and of course there is capacity which rarely can boost skills but also has a lot of other stuff.

>>54630529
If you tried to tell me that shooting a gun doesn't involve your hand I would slap you.

>>54630416
Christ, that's a lot of tank. A GM would have to send in mages tailored to the guy to keep him on his toes, and that comes across as a bit of a dick move. Still, maybe if you guys fuck up your legwork and word gets out that you're involved...

Would it be worse to deal with Acid, Cold, or Direct damage?

>>54630484
They probably have an outspoken Prejudice against spellcaster types.

>>54630585
>If you tried to tell me that shooting a gun doesn't involve your hand I would slap you.

Cyberweapon in a cyberleg. Checkmate, trogger.

>>54630648
So... your not using a partial limb there then, are you, you dumb, disgusting, knife eared keeb?

>>54630584
>>54630585
It even lists an example. It's things like 'strength for gripping an object,' not 'strength for swinging a sword.' It was clarified on countless forums later that yes, in fact, if you're using more than just, exclusively your hand/foot, you use your natural limb instead.

The same applies to Partials as well.

Unless you're super interested in being able to crush something in a single hand, or picking a lock, or something similarly focused, your partial cyberlimbs' Strength/Agility doesn't matter one way or the other. You can neither spike them super high and enjoy benefits, nor have to worry about dropping them low and suffering penalties.

Now, mind you, if you're someone who picks locks, forges documents, or does sleight of hand? Sure, crank up that Agility.

But if you're interested in Agility for things like sneaking or shooting? Partial cyberlimbs don't do anything at all for you.

>>54630677
I am finding conflicting info on that actually. A lot of people note that you average your stats and the limb, including a freelancer...

>>54630668
I'm more concerned with how they're aiming the thing at all since they're firing from the hip at best.

>>54630677
The writer of the rules said you average the limbs when you are using both meat parts and a partial limb on the dumpshock forums.

>>54630772
>The writer of the rules said you average the limbs when you are using both meat parts and a partial limb on the dumpshock forums.
Can I get the sauce on that?

>>54630585
>If you tried to tell me that shooting a gun doesn't involve your hand I would slap you.
The general interpretation is that you use the whole arm for shooting, even for a pistol. Best case scenario you're averaging the meat limb and the cyber.

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>>54630744
Take a knee, champ

the way the conversation is going reminded me of a question: aside from cyber singularity seeker, is there any decent way to get more willpower on an adept? I know pain editor nets you one while active, but don't think there's much else for increasing that or my intuition, unless I go adept spell like a retard

>>54630821
Drugs can increase your willpower and intuition. You can also increase intuition with a cerebellum booster.

>>54630806
That's still hardly the best way to actually aim the damn thing.

>>54630645
I play a tank in my game, it's a fun ride. The trick with them is that most non-dwarf/cyber-singularity-seeker tanks have comparatively low willpower and spell defense pools to their soak pools, which makes shit like flashbangs, gas grenades, and spells really effective. Also rocket launchers exist and can make even a tank flinch. To take down the archetypal troll tank, a mage with an edged direct damage spell is going to be any party's best bet. The thing is, the GM doesn't really have to send in things tailored to you, aside from making assault rifles standard among your enemies. The thing with playing a tank is to draw as much fire onto yourself as possible, because that fire will usually start dealing physical damage to your teammates if the enemy lands shots. Which means that the GM simply has to force the tank to try to get enemies to chose him over his teammates. It makes combat less of a challenge for the tank's character, sure, but he becomes the wizard in DnD trying to do opposition control.

If the tank player starts getting too crazy, daring him to walk into hand loaded APDS fire or the occasional 24P trigger-on-impact grenade/rocket will remind him that he's still mortal and force him to use or burn edge.

>>54630584
>>54630585
>>54630718
>>54630772
That chummer's right. By far the most common interpretation is that hands/partials are left out of any calculations unless they're the exclusive thing used for that. The reason for that is this passage, where they say they're only used for rolls directly using those limbs:
>The attributes of partial limbs (including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs

And then this example, for what 'directly using a partial limb' looks like:
>(such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand)

That paints a pretty strong, clear picture of what the intended use - the intended application - is.

There is no hard and fast errata. There is no official ruling on any forums anywhere. But the community as a whole - with exceptions, of course, because there's always exceptions when you're talking about how something is 'generally' done - has come down on the side of partial-limb stats being extremely niche, and not contributing towards any kind of averages.

Indeed, that's the only interpretation supported by the text. The text only ever talks about averaging entire limbs together. Never once does it talk about averaging a meat limb's score with its partial limb. There's not the slightest whisper of that in the rules.

So, while I understand your interpretation - I can see why it would make sense to you - you're 100% unsupported by RAW, whereas the guy you're arguing with is more or less completely supported by it, slightly vague wording aside.

>>54630645
As a GM you should generally assume the samurai is going to win 100% of fights. The idea that every single person in a fight needs to feel threatened by that fight is part of the D&D mentality. The samurai is only worried in most fights because their friends could get hurt. They themselves should be totally fine in most combat to ignore all sources of damage unless something wacky like a spirit enters the fray.

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>>54630840
Smartlinks are a hell of a drug. Add a foot anchor and you can pull it off.

It's not the smart choice, but if you wanted the smart choice you'd get a datajack and go crawling to a corp for a dataentry job.

>>54630585
>.4 something of essence isn't a lot left for skill utility 'ware. And its important to note you can't actually afford that at gen

Yes, you absolutely can afford this at gen, i know, considering i have the appropriate Runner open in Chummer atm.

A Smartlink is actually included in the above calculations, i simply forgot to write it down.
And while you don't have much space left for Utility ware in your Body, you have a fuckton of space left in your limbs.
Said Runner has Hydraulic Jacks, retractable Skates, a Grapple Hand and a Magnetic System built into the limbs while still having space left for eg a Radar System or something else.
Regarding the Synthacardium: Technically the space for it would be there, but honestly, i don't see the appeal.
30k Nuyen per single d6 Bonus on Athletics skills is not that great desu. I'd rather take NeoEpo because for the 0.1 additional Essence and 6000 Nuyen plus compared to R1 Synthacardium, you also get +1 on all healing Tests and +1 on your physical Limit.

>>54630585
>>54630648

4es Cybergenitalia allowed the placing of weaponry inside, sadly this isn't as explicitely covered anymore in 5e.
Id really have liked to have a char with a literal laserschlong.

>>54630871

Hey man here is where I am in this conversation:

>Hey please write a guide on cyberware
>No it will be too hard to get everything right because there is too much shit to keep track of
>Pleaaase, what about soak
>Fine, here is my assessment
>Fail to keep track of some shit based on extremely unclear rules that prooobabllly do indeed work one way but are 'cleaner' the other and happen to also be the way I have happened to experience it at 100% of the tables I have played at
>Get called an idiot for trying to further clarify the extremely general case I recommended limbs for.

Like I said, its too overarching a category to talk about because it also comes down to shit like GM adjucation of partials, and impacts literally every area of the game.

>>54630913
Yeah. I tried to review the prices myself because I was worried I was misremembering some prices (I was), deleted one mention of it being too expensive, failed to delete the other.

Still I think I am being taken a bit out of context here because I was not calling limb builds retarded. That was someone else. I think they are fine, but they lose out on a lot of great 'ware choices just from having to work with more capacity than essence, meaning you lose out on some choice options like soft nanohives, tetrachromatic vision, tailored pheromones, and reflex recorders. You got some room for those, but you won't be able to take a ton.

You definitely get a lot of stuff out of capacity, and I want to reiterate I never said "taking limbs is for retards."

>>54630645
>Would it be worse to deal with Acid, Cold, or Direct damage?


Probably cold.
At least i made it a Habit to put the Maximum amount of anti-chem, anti-electro and anti-fire lining into my armor and thats at least +4 on each of These, even with the crappiest flakjack.

Also what the guy above said. Gasgrenades are highly effective, even if you sport 7 WIL because Seekers are so much fun.

>>54631008
No sweat then.

>I think they are fine, but they lose out on a lot of great 'ware choices just from having to work with more capacity than essence

Imho, its more like you are shifting your choices a bit around.
Eg the Radar System is incredibly useful, but at 0,25 essence very essence heavy.
Now if you simply put it into your arm instead (which you can, Headware can explicitely be put into Cyberlimbs), the calculations look different.
Same goes for Hard Nanohives.
Not much different with Reflex Recorders. You'll simply be going for skill-optimized cyberlimbs instead (if applicable).
The only thing that is really a big loss are those tailored pheromones.
Anyways, good night, I'll be off, its 2:30 in the morning and i haven't had a Minute of sleep last night. Not going to pull a 48er.

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Can I join the soak theorycrafting even though I'm still in 4e?

Minotaur
Gets Metagenic Improvement: Body

Class 2 Surge (10 BP)
Rhino hide 10 BP
+2/5
Dermal deposits 10 BP
+1/1
+1 Min bod
- Other positive qualities
Toughness 10 BP, +1 Body to resist damage
Restricted Gear - 5 BP (For Titanium Bone Lacing)
Exceptional Attribute: Body - 20 BP
Total: 35 BP positive qualities

Genetic optimization 40.000
Titanium Bone Lacing 40.000
+1/1 Armor
+3 Body to resist damage
Platleet factories 25.000
Reduce any damage over 2 by 1

13 Body
+4 Body Dice to resist physical damage
Inherent armor of 4/7. Soak dice naked = 21/24, with 15 Condition monitor boxes.

Then I get some form fitting body armor to stuff underneath my Lined Coat giving me a total of 12/6 inconspicous armor, for a total of 33/30 soak dice while out on a stroll.
It's flavorful (A minotaur rhinoceros), not retarded abstract armor in your hands and you don't have to screw your entire character over for it to work.

>>54630894
>Smartlinks are a hell of a drug
Huh. Would that be at -3 for shooting remotely / around a corner??

>>54631303
Okay detract one dice from this, I realized Toughness took me one step beyond the limit. And the +1 min body is from metagenic improvement, squeezed it into the wrong place.

>>54631135

When I wrote the martial arts guide I basically read the entire martial arts section multiple times, did a lot of cross referencing with most called shots, weapons, and I had to just estimate how often a certain situation was likely to not just come up, but actually be relevant at a table to figure out how all the pieces fit together. And I still got a crazy amount of stuff wrong and still am collecting corrections to this day, though most of the more egregious stuff (like implying iaijutsu and half sword was a combo) is gone.

Trying to evaluate all of cyberware to that level increases that space so massively its pretty much impossible. Its easy to note what 'ware in a vaccum is never worth taking, but the ramifications for each choice is harder to evaluate.

From my point of view limbs are great "gadgets." They give you a lot of useful, specific stuff, like jumping, going super fast, having a radar, being able to hold your breath indefinitely, stuff like that.

General augmentation just makes you generally better at a lot of stuff, and you can fit a lot more in at once, and by a lot of things I mean a *lot* of things, and still has room for some niche tools like a cybernose for tailored pheromone immunity or two soft nanohives and two geneware treatments to effectively boost your logic and intuition 2 above their normal augmentation maximum for many useful purposes like perception and knowledge skills using neural amplifiers, qualia, and pushed.

Stuff like cerebellum boosters not only enhance your perception and knowledge skills but also your initiative and dodging past what a limb user can get. Reakt also helps your defense pool beyond limbs.

Figuring out all the ramifications for this much larger space of options would require me to essentially solve shadowrun, which I am pretty sure is entirely beyond my skills.

And, in your case, the sleep regulator is trivial on a general 'ware build, but crazy expensive for a limb build! Have a good night.

>>54631349
You could always do the old "retard's guide to explosives." That's less an evaluation and more a rewrite, with some commentary on what you can actually achieve with any given sort of store-bought explosive.

>>54631412
Oh God, tell me that's in the pastebin!

>>54631487
Not as far as I know. That's why I'm naggin martial arts guy to do a writeup on it. I'm playing a demolitions character and can barely understand the Run & Gun chapter. I'm glad I'm not alone.

>>54631412
>>54631487

What specifically are you two having problems with? Is it something specific in the demolitions chapter?

If its "What the hell is the rating of weird named explosive X?" its actually confusing because they left that information out, and it is in the R&G errata.

If your confused about the table on 176, the idea is you look up how much KG of explosivese you have on the X axis, and the base rating of the explosive on the Y axis, and that gives you the effective rating of that type of explosive at that size. So for example if you had a 5 kg rating 6 plastic explosive, the overall explosive's rating would be 14, causing it to deal 14 DV, AP -2, with a dropoff of 2 DV per-meter.

>>54631840
That's the simple bit. I'm having trouble with the actual equations for how much explosive you use to blow a 1 meter hole into a given material. As far as I can make out, you consult the structure tables given in the book, and then assume the structure will buy hits with it's armour rating. You sum the bought hits with the structure rating, and that's the DV you need to exceed to punch a 1m hole through that material?

>>54631990
Exactly correct!

Do remember that you can up the effective DV of your explosive via tamping as well to multiply its DV by 2. This requires something behind the explosive with at least half the structure as the thing you want to blow up, like a barrier spell, sandbags, or a parked vehicle.

>>54632014
Oh, and also this is for a controlled hole. An explosive that is uncontrolled can radiate outwards and just smash down walls by destroying them with a normal barrier soak roll.

>>54632014
Here's a question about tamping. I know if you place the explosive directly on the structure you double the damage and change the AP to -1/2 the structures armour. I know to tamp the charge you either have to drill it into the structure, or use SOMETHING with an armor or force of at least half the DV. But does it ever explain what exactly I'd need to use? List examples maybe? Because that all seems like GM fiat from where I'm sitting

>>54632197
Not even joking, I used the Anarchist cookbook to determine a lot of explosives stuff.

Generally, my group uses taped metal clamps, metal tubes or people.

>>54632270
So it is just a case of talking to your GM and winging it?

>>54632346
Kinda, yeah. Good idea for me to write up some stuff though. Berlin Cookbook.

>>54632372
And just like that you have another project. We all win!

>>54630744
Cyber firearms are all smartguns / have cameras.

>>54632412
I (martial arts guy) am not him.

>>54632486
Well someone's doing the thing I wanted done so I'll call it a win.

>>54632578
Yeah, I'm exosuit guy and I need something to loosen my mind from price calculations and availability balancing.

>>54632603
Did you ever consider making Exosuits cap your effective Agility at 3? Just a thought that might make it easier to balance it without turning it into a way too strong armor/weapon usable for all situations.